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411 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Josh Dubin
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Advertiser 1
Are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast.
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Host 1
We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces.
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Advertiser 1
Of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you. Perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's Walking Dead.
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Host 2
You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review.
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Host 1
What a bizarre thing we've created now.
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Host 2
With your host Adam Thorne.
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Guest 1
This might either be the worst podcast.
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Host 1
Or the best one. Go enjoy the show.
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Guest 2
This is Johnson, recently on Joe Rogan's podcast, talking about how he had turned his life around after a life of crime. He was working with troubled youth with the Queen's Public Defender's Office. The shirt he is wearing says Queens Defenders.
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Host 2
I got into school, I got my GED from there. I got involved in correspondence courses. I started interacting with guys who were teaching art aggression replacement training and I started to begin to understand how these concepts work, what positive visualization is deep.
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Guest 2
Breathing, how to remove yourself, conflict resolution. Well, police say Johnson's life of crime apparently was not over. He is accused of shooting 44 year old Colin Small in the head in Small's sixth floor apartment on Summit Avenue and then dismembering his body.
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Host 1
There we go. Dismembering his body. Now we are here. The Joe Rogan Experience Review. To review. Good old Josh Dubin being back on, which I'm very excited about. I was worried that he wouldn't be back on the show and it's you know why I was worried, though? I mean, of course Rogan had him back on. Rogan. Rogan understands, you know, he knows what's up and. Yeah, but let's kind of. Let's play a little bit from the start of the Rogan episode and just I think Joe really kind of encompasses the. The tension of the moment a little bit and. And makes it. Yeah, I don't know. He eases the tension with it.
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Guest 1
So I guess we just get right into it. The last case that we talked about, we had a very unfortunate incident happen after the podcast about a month later. Yeah, the gentleman beheaded somebody.
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Host 2
Allegedly.
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Host 1
Yes, allegedly.
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Guest 1
There's a lot of allegedly, but, yeah, there's so many crazy things to that case. The craziest thing was him trying to fool the security cameras with a wig. Like, I guess he didn't know how high resolution cameras had gotten over the 25 years that he was in jail.
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Host 1
Yeah. So, you know, Joe has addressed it before, but having Josh on just to cover this and, you know, Joe's opening up with it being light and being a little playful. I mean, you know, that almost is insensitive to say it's a. It's a up situation, but, you know, he's. He's trying to take the heat off it. And I think he knows the pressure that Josh put on himself and how guilty he felt, because this is an important platform for Josh. He's getting good information out. He's been getting people out of jail. Like, this is not an opportunity he wants to mess up. And, you know, he did bring that guy on the show. So I thought it was great that Joe really just made it as clear as day, like, hey, it's not a big deal. Like, it happens. It's wild. It's whatever. But, you know, you're doing good work and. And keep cracking on. I think that's important.
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Host 2
Yeah, I. I would agree with that. I. I liked how he just jumped right in and, you know, kind of addressed the elephant in the room of, like, you know, we're not gonna do small talk. I'm sure they had some right before they started recording, but there wasn't a lot of things. Yeah, but they jumped right in and they just. You know, I think you could. You could see in Josh's body language and, like, hearing his voice, like, his. Like, it wasn't regret. It wasn't, like. It was, like, almost embarrassment, like, that he was, like, coming back and, like, having to then, like, say, like, you know, this person that I like worked really hard to give A second chance to. And, like, squandered it. Like, you know, that's. He's like, I don't want to feel bad about it, but I do. Right. Because he was doing what he thought was right and what he felt was right. And, like, it probably was right, like, given the evidence, like, the guy was, you know, exonerated for a reason and, like, you know, wrongfully convicted, but then ended up committing a very heinous crime. And so, you know, he basically was like, I don't want to, you know, say that I regret what I did by giving this person a second chance, but he absolutely is like, I hate that this happened. And he still feels very. He was just expressing how grateful he was that Rogan was like, not like, oh, my gosh, like, this guy's like a fraud, basically, because he's not. He's still doing really great work. It's just someone else is involved. You know, these other people are involved who make their own decisions, and he's, you know.
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Host 1
Yeah.
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Host 2
I mean, look bad one.
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Host 1
Joe does know, and he really didn't make a bad decision. He couldn't have known. It was unfortunate what happened.
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Host 2
Right.
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Host 1
But. But Joe has had many guests on before that have had certain controversies or have just done certain things or spoken in a certain way to where we don't ever see him again.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
And I think it's for good reason. You know, Joe has a really good, kind of, I don't know, distancing meter for, like, how close someone needs to be to the show.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
And, you know, it's a reasonable thing. I mean, you've got to protect the show, but you've also got to protect yourself. And I mean, look, he's at Alex Jones on a bunch of times, and Alex Jones says some controversial, but he also takes his time with Alex Jones.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
You know, I think there's a part of me that thinks that Rogan would have him on a lot more if it wasn't kind of looked at as platforming this person that is, you know, by a lot of people, seen as a problem.
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Host 2
Mm.
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Host 1
But with Josh, it's like he's done so much good. They're only just starting to build momentum for the Innocence Project. They've been getting people acquitted and really highlighting some of these messed up stories, which, you know, maybe these episodes aren't that the most interesting to maybe some of the listeners right now. But I would say to you that if all of a sudden, any family member or you or someone you care about got wrapped up in a Case to where they were being accused of something they didn't do. I mean, real quick, you would want people like Josh out there to advocate for you. I mean, terrifying stuff.
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Host 2
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you want to think that in the end, the justice system does right by the people.
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Host 1
It doesn't, but it doesn't.
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Host 2
Right. You what, you want to think that. Yeah. Right.
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Host 1
We want to believe that with pharmaceutical companies and, you know, God bless you if you do live in your rosy world where you think that all these institutions are nailing it every time. But there is. There's a big mess, you know, and let's give them all some credit. They're better than they have been or they're better than having none of those things in place.
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Host 2
Right.
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Host 1
But we should never take our eye off what they're up to.
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Host 2
Oh, yeah. Well, that's, you know, I think their intention is to protect and, like, be fair and, you know, do the right thing and, like, have, you know, the right to a trial and that trial be fair and it all be good and well, but, like, it just doesn't work like that 100 of the time.
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Host 1
But what's interesting is when you say their intention. Who, the judges? Because it's not the prosecutors and it's not the defense lawyers. Their intention is to win.
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Host 2
Right.
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Host 1
Like, 100% win within the bounds of the law. Now, I'm not gonna take away from all of them. I don't. I don't feel like, you know, when Josh is defending somebody that he wants to win so bad, he cheats. You know, they. They hold the law, but, you know, what does that mean? How much bending is there and also how much nasty can go into that, too. And also with the judges, what's their motivation? Often it's like, maybe they're thinking of going into other elected positions. So it's just, like, political moves for them.
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Host 2
Yeah, I imagine there's some of that. I think the ultimate position, like, the role of the judge is to uphold the law. Right. Like, so it's like, ultimately, it's like the precedents that's set with each case. Like, that's where it takes a lot of study to be a judge. You know, you have to have a lot of, you know, a lot of information, you know, a lot of history and case history and the ability to search cases to know, like, what's the precedence that's been set and how do I move forward based on, like, what previous judges and, like, respecting the choices of previous judges for what has been set. You know, it's I can't remember the term, but like, like when, you know, another judge rules, that's what the law is. Yeah, you, you know, with the term I'm talking about, Gosh, I can't think of it.
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Host 1
Well, you know, when it gets to the Supreme Court, you know, that's, that's when they're doing that type of thing.
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Host 2
Yeah. But I think, I think in all cases that's sort of like their, like their role. Right. But also to like make a fair and like reasonable judgment and punishment for a crime. Also, like, they typically get to like set that as well and they're again, precedence is set with each of those, you know, new, like, rulings. But yeah, I think the system overall, you, you want to think works in the favor of innocent people and against, you know, those that are guilty. But we've seen over and over throughout history and in the media and I'm sure in a lot of people's families where they, you know, have personally been wronged by the justice system in some way. And so back to your point, 100% you want people like Josh out there who are fighting for you and giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe even if you don't deserve it.
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Host 1
Yeah. I would say that it works pretty good if you've got some money for like a mid range decent lawyer, I would say. And then if you're below that, it's a crapshoot. And that's in a system that I believe in. I believe in the US justice system. I wouldn't want to be in trial in North Korea, in Russia.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
In the Middle East.
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Host 2
Right.
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Host 1
You know, I mean, I'm just like, I don't trust their justice system like that. It just sounds like potentially way more, I don't want to say biased, but just corruption. Yeah. Way more corrupt probably. And you know, in the US it's harder to kind of get away with that. The documenting too many things. And if you have good lawyers, they're gonna spot it and things get squashed and you're good. But it doesn't help very poor people.
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Host 2
No.
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Host 1
You know, and the, the free lawyers that you get appointed, it's like, who knows how like overworked they are with their caseloads. Like, maybe you get a good one, but maybe not. Yeah, maybe you get the alcoholic.
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Host 2
Right. I also think there's a lot of, in law and in the justice system, like a lot of like black and white scenarios where it's like if you're in, if you're in the black, like you know, you're, You're. There's punishment involved, right? Like, there's no. Like, just like you committed a crime. Like, maybe it was a nonviolent crime, you know, something like possession, right. Like, for so long it was. Didn't matter why you had. It didn't matter if it was yours. It didn't matter how you obtain. You know, like, there's a lot of variables sometimes in these. The reasons why people do things or act in a certain way or do something, potentially even committing a crime. Right. Like through desperation or whatever. And sometimes those things aren't, I don't believe, considered as much as they could be when, you know, like, a ruling is made on a sentencing, like, whether it's jail time or whatever. So I don't know, maybe that's just me being, like, too soft when it comes to thinking people deserve more of a chance sometimes to, like, they made a bad choice or they broke the law, but they weren't doing it maliciously. They were just like. Maybe they were ignorant or really naive and they didn't even realize they were. But because they did, their whole lives are sort of turned upside down because of it.
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Host 1
Yeah, look, I mean, solid punishments for people that commit horrible crimes and things that do not work for our society are good. However, I also think that if we can create a society that has a balanced enough budget to where we're not constantly in a deficit and therefore spending extra money isn't starving the people that are not committing crimes. I love the idea of putting programs back into prisons, you know, and people that are in jail because, you know, it's just hard for some people to hear when they're like, hey, I fucking, you know, can't buy milk, it's expensive, and they're going to college. It's like, I get that. That makes sense, but let's assume that that isn't part of it. We create systems that are more efficient and then we have, I dare I say, extra money. We never really have that. But if there was something like it, it would be really useful to take somebody that did something terrible, you know, or just some, you know, bad apple that's just maybe not a terrible person, but just easily goes down the wrong road. Like, it's just. That's all they've known. They just slip into it and give them some education because if they're ever going to get out and we got to pay for them if they don't, you know, it's like we might have some good potential positive elements to our society in These places, if they just had a little bit of training.
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Host 2
Yeah, they. They touched on that quite a bit. You know, the idea of how important it is for us to start, you know, integrating rehabilitation programs in prisons and the. Also the place for the importance of mental health care for prisoners and those who have experienced certain abuse or, you know, just things that, you know, traumas that have led them to the lifestyle that they ended up in. You know, it's extremely sad to see someone who has come from a really hard life, and hard can be defined in many different ways. But to see someone who's experienced a ton of, you know, adversity and, you know, maybe their parents were in and out of, you know, prisons, and that's just sort of a lifestyle that they've known. For them to go into somewhere, a prison, you know, for a long sentence and come out at even more of a deficit than when they went in because they're behind on, you know, education politics. They don't understand the, you know, the landscape that they're entering into in terms of society. Like, we're 100% doing them a disservice. And there's. There's no reason we need to just throw people away just because they've committed a crime. Like, they're still, you know, within reason, I suppose. Like, there's some very heinous, like, violent crimes that are not worth it.
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Host 1
Yeah. And I also. I also push back and say it's within budget. Well, yeah, as well. It's like, I hate to say it, but you don't get the same priority on budget is, you know, K through 12 kids.
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Host 2
Sure.
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Host 1
Right. However, if the K through 12 and most other things that we're paying for are taken care of. Yeah, it's. I think it's a great idea to put money back into those systems. I mean, you know, it's not. It's with the idea of. And I guess an argument could be, oh, you're just going to educate them so they can get out and be better criminals. I don't think. I think a small number would continue to be criminals. Yeah, I really do. It's just a theory, but I feel like if they felt empowered and got the right education and came out, they. They would do a lot better. However, I think Josh just figured out, or just found out, plus Rogan, that that's not always the case. You know, Josh brought up the fact that only about 1% of the people that went through what the dude that killed someone did. It's like, we'll go back to Jail, it's like very small. They've like learned their lesson. They've educated themselves, they've found community, they found value in themselves. I mean, he was really, what was his name? Sheldon someone, you know, I mean, he was just on Rogan. He could have capitalized on that, wrote a fucking book. He could be a millionaire right now or at least hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't know how many books you can sell from being on Rogan, but it's probably quite a lot. Yeah, he could have had a documentary made about him. I mean, that's big momentum, right? Instead he shot someone and cut them.
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Host 2
Up and, and then tried to wear a wig to evade the cameras because. Yeah, he thought it was.
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Host 1
Joe was saying, like, well, sorry buddy, but we got hdtv, right?
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Host 2
That's one of those things they should teach people about when they're. Technology advances, doesn't stop.
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Host 1
Yeah, yeah. But anyway, moving on from, from that stuff and the, and the chopped off heads. Yeah, let's get into like, more of the, like, importance of rehabilitation programs, prisons, you know, mental health opportunities and just generally this whole idea of like throwing people away, right. And it, it seems to happen. And imagine the mental health conditions in any prison, you know, you know, that medical care is probably not good. Why would we assume they have mental health care? And it's kind of hell in there. And you know, I guess there's this point, it's like you're in time out, but in the worst possible way, right? You're in potentially infinite time out. However, where is the benefit when they're being kept away from society anyway, for them to just be tortured mentally, it's like, yeah, you've done a bad thing. You shouldn't be like blissfully enjoying every day. But is there another way, right? Is there another way to where we could structure prison systems to. Even for people that could never get back out, it's like, do they need to be tortured further? Because oftentimes the people that go to jail because they've committed heinous acts have had heinous lives, like horrible things done on to them. And I'm not making excuses for these criminals, but it's pretty well understood that's how it goes for many of them. So putting them in a place that's going to make their mental health worse doesn't seem to benefit anybody.
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Host 2
No, I mean, yeah, we. Like you said before, I think what, what, what it boils down to is cost. I don't think, I don't think anyone, maybe, maybe a select few Dark souled people would, would say that nobody that goes to prison deserves this chance to educate themselves, whether it be intellectually or emotionally and to kind of work on.
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Host 1
Things that oh there's, there's plenty of people out there that have the lock em up forever mentality.
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Host 2
Yeah, I don't, I just can't, I can't fathom that. I can't fathom it because you know, imagine if this was you or your child or so it's like you would want them to have a genuine second chance and not just like a life saving chance, but a life improving chance.
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Host 1
But also imagine if they killed your child.
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Host 2
Well, I would say, okay, this nonviolent crimes and violent crimes definitely, you know, should be treated differently in terms of sentencing and rehabilitation and how much many resources are put into these prisoners while they're there with their ability to work and save money. Like all of those things. Right. Like I think those do have to be separated. We're not like putting a blanket, like everyone gets the opportunity to like reduce their sentence if they go through this program or whatever. But you know the, I mean we, the statistics do show that the higher your education in terms of like if you have a secondary education, you are less likely to commit a crime, you know, and so why is that not something that we can offer them? And I would say the long term cost, I don't know how they could project that out, but I'm sure there's some computer that would do it. But projecting out the cost savings of like re incarceration rates, extended incarceration sentences and just trying to limit crime happening by increasing education instead. Right? Like what is the cost benefits analysis of that? And you know, there's you know, in addition to a secondary education like an associate's degree or something like that only takes two years, right. To get through in the outside world. Think about if you don't have a job and you don't have to do anything, you just, all you have to do is that basically while you're in prison, right. You could get through it pretty quickly and then, but the emotional education, like we like we've talked about like the mental health care in these prisons, again there is a cost to it. But you know, perhaps it can prevent a re incarceration, perhaps it can prevent the incarceration of someone else in that family, in that bloodline. Like you know, if that this young man is supposed to be in prison for 10 years and he gets out and starts a family, if he has worked on issues that he's dealt with in his life and sort of come to terms with reasons why he chose the. To act in the ways that he did and to behave in certain ways that led him to getting into prison. Maybe he will pass along some of that emotional intelligence and like that, the decision making skills, like better decision making skills to his offspring. Right. So, like, again, I don't know how they could, you know, put, you know, extrapolate that into future cost savings for the justice system and for like the, you know, the government necessarily. But our government doesn't throw that.
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Host 1
Computers can run simulations. I could postulate those things. I mean, you know, a big thing is that it's a huge expense. So there's a bunch of things going on. You've got a system where, you know, a lot of these people are not getting out of prison in a position to be useful to society. And that's a thing we can all agree on. Now, you can get upset that maybe we spent too much money or given them too many opportunities over other people. I do not think they should get priority just because they're dangerous. You shouldn't get more priority than somebody else in society that's doing their best to exist.
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Host 2
Of course not.
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Host 1
And didn't get any scholarships for school or, you know, just any help to get ahead. Right. However, you've still got the system that's very draining. Like, prisons cost a lot. Could they therefore make money to pay for themselves? So it's like a net zero. And also not turn it into some sort of slavery drive too, because there's, there's a lot of, you know, talk with that happening, you know, and it's really ugly when there's a lot of African Americans in jail making license plates for like 0.1 cent each or whatever they make. And then it's like, did we just cleverly expand slavery? Slavery, Right.
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Host 2
Yeah. I think it's ugly. That argument is tricky because imagine you're in prison and you so badly want to work for $3 an hour, even though on the outside world that's, that's like unacceptable. Right? Like, that is slavery, essentially.
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Host 1
Well, it's illegal.
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Host 2
Well, it's illegal. Right. But in prison, you, you've lost the right to do a lot of things. When you're incarcerated, you can't vote when you're incarcerated, you can't, you know, have a gun in there with you. Like, there's a lot of law, you know, rights that you lose when you are incarcerated. But you do have the ability and the right to work for something. And that gives you any slim chance of making it when they just push you out the gate and they're like, you're out, go ahead. And you, if you have no one and nothing when you get out 10 to 15 years later, that $3 an hour that you work 40 to 50 hours a week, that's everything to you. And, and this topic was really, is really hot. Was really hot a couple of years. Hold on.
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Host 1
Did they give you a paycheck when you leave the prison? You. Yeah. So basically you can just, I thought you could just like spend it on food.
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Host 2
I think you can do both. You can put it like. So there is specifically a prison in Montana. It's a women's prison. And they were doing this, they were sewing garments of some sort. And I don't know every single detail was never like that deep into it. But I remember having many discussions and sort of like hearing a lot of talk about this sort of controversy over private companies coming to prisons looking for low wage labor in order to increase their profits, you know, their profit margins. And women, one, they're developing a skill which is learning how to be a seamstress and sew things. So that's a positive for when they get out. And two, they're able to save a little bit of money so that when they do get out, they aren't dependent on someone else or maybe, maybe someone that they had to be dependent on when they went in. Right. An abuser or a parent or something like that. And so the issue is that everyone was like on the outside was being like, this is slavery. This is not fair. You can't pay them. You have to pay them a fair wage. And it's like, we're not doing that. So they either make $3 an hour or they make $0 an hour. And they don't get to do anything and they don't get to come out with these skills or this new work ethic or this, these savings accounts. You know, even if it's $2,000, like that's a lot of money when you have nothing to start with. That's. That feeds you. That can pay for a hotel like that. It can do a lot.
- [30:22]
Host 1
Do you think that also? And either it's just an idea, but like thinking of, you know, like Elon is going to be running Doge. Right. Department of Government Efficiency, let's say. And I think this would be fair because $3 an hour sucks.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
And I don't know what the lowest minimum wage in the country is, but I don't. I think it's more than six.
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Host 2
I think it's like 11 now.
- [30:49]
Host 1
Well, I'm not sure. I. I think some places still have, like, eight. But anyway, let's assume that you get half the minimum wage for whatever that state is, and the other half goes to paying your place in the jail, because it's not unreasonable. Like, regular people in regular society have to pay rent or their mortgage. Right. You're not paying to be in jail, but through the work program, you could be paying, like, almost like a bill. Right. So you pay half of it, but half of it you get as well. So you can kind of save this and do whatever you want with it. Now, I'm sure the prison just takes care of it. It's not like you can just be like, oh, I want to buy Tesla stock over there, so whatever. Of course, though, honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to that. If they could just also trade the market, like, who gives a shit? Like, good luck. It would be hilarious to HEAR Some, like, $100 million investment tycoon that just is, like, locked away in some prison somewhere. But you know, just the fact that that kind of creates a system that is more sustainable than the one we have today and potentially less bias in terms of keeping people in jail. And this brings up an important point that Josh was talking about when he has reservations about Kamala. She was a prosecutor, and it was known that she was keeping offenders, drug offenders, and other offenders in jail longer than they needed to be. This was, like, something that she focused on, somehow helped her, like, political career or that of a prosecutor. And it also benefited the jails.
- [32:49]
Host 2
Yeah, the private prisons. Right.
- [32:51]
Host 1
There was something to that. So you've got to be real careful about how you structure these things, because there will be an innate kind of pressure. And, you know, and really, before you can, like, really hammer Kamala for, you know, this isn't like, I don't believe that she was part of some conspiratorial cabal to just put these people in terrible positions. There was probably just very positive, and a positive is not quite the word, but there was a lot of, you know, push to emphasize the reason they should stay in and just lean on it because of blah, blah, blah. But all of this energy came from the advantage of, like, the prisons making more, you know, the judges getting kickbacks.
- [33:41]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [33:42]
Host 1
It ultimately affecting kind of how the prosecutors can do things. That's an ugly justice system.
- [33:50]
Host 2
It is. And I think you made a really interesting point about, like, in, you know, disincentivizing or deincentivizing. You know, you know, keeping someone in prison longer so that a private company makes money on their incarceration. It's. It's kind of disgusting to think about, but I also think it might open up, you know, this concept that you've proposed of half of what they work for goes directly towards a, you know, paying for their. Their time, you know, their meals, their. Their clothes, their. The services, the utilities, essentially, to house them and keep them alive. And then the other half goes towards, you know, savings or, you know, things that they want to do, whether that's paying tuition to get it, you know, an education in some way or, you know, even get, like, you know, achieve something like a GED or an associate's degree. I also think it's a really great opportunity for them to get a financial education, which we don't get a lot of when in public high schools, in public schools in America. And this is, you know, it could take very little. You know, an online course. We, you know, online education is very cost effective. Like, you just have one course and a couple computers and lots and lots and lots of people. You don't need to have teachers and, you know, professors and instructors. I mean, online courses are. Can be very, very economically, like, sensible. And having the opportunity to gain a financial education, how to budget your money, how to divide up, you know, your income, like, yeah, for longevity, like savings.
- [35:33]
Host 1
And so on, all these things are really obviously beneficial, but it only works if everybody else in our society is already getting those things because it's just not. It doesn't work. It's not fair. It won't make people get behind the idea of it.
- [35:55]
Host 2
Yeah, but that said, like, prisoners are required to get three meals a day. There are children in our country that don't get three meals a day, and our government doesn't provide that. So that's. That's a whole nother issue.
- [36:05]
Host 1
Oh, yeah, no, I get it.
- [36:06]
Host 2
They. Absolutely.
- [36:07]
Host 1
But that only adds to the point. It's like imagine being a single mother, you know, and I often pick south side of Chicago when I give these examples. But I lived in Chicago and I lived there for many years. And it's one place where I knew there were people that didn't have a lot of money. I knew them and they struggled. And it was the first time in the US That I saw. I mean, I went to high school in New Mexico. They're not wealthy in New Mexico, but the people that I knew there were feeding their kids, they could do that. There were people on the south side of Chicago and people that I worked with that grew up there that were like, we couldn't get shit. We had nothing. Like, it was a real struggle in what I thought was, you know, what I know to be the greatest country in the world. But there's still these areas that are very, very poor. Yeah, well, when you're talking about giving these opportunities to inmates, it. It's just going to cause difficulty for the people that had to live like that. It's going to be difficult for them. So there is a balance, Right. It's like, hey, the government's not putting all the food on these people's tables, but at least give them the education or the therapy or the different things. First, though, saying that it would be very beneficial. And Joe and Josh talked about it, to do psychedelic therapy for people that had been incarcerated to who knows what it could do, whether it could help them readjust the society, accept their position, work through some trauma. I mean, you're transitioning from one type of existence to another, and the longer you've been in one, which is kind of a type of isolation. But it's not just type isolation, it's like a totally different way of existing. Like, you're not going to the store, you're not really going to work. You know, you're not around regular people, you're around violent people. And it's for a long time, I mean, to. The skills you need to reintegrate are not given to you. You know, what do you get a brochure, give you a flyer and they go, good luck.
- [38:49]
Host 2
Yeah, Essentially, I would say, in my opinion, in my meek single opinion of the topic of psychedelics, Joe likes Joe and his guests. Typically they, the lot of them have this narrative that, like, it's going to fix a lot. And I don't have a disbelief that it will, that it can benefit those that could really use it. Right. But in this case, we're talking about prisoners who aren't even receiving like regular therapy for just like general stress and anxiety. So why like, this feels like sort of like the far end of it.
- [39:25]
Host 1
No, no, I get it. But also it's like ptsd. Like what they have is like military level ptsd, like bad ptsd. Right. This guy got out of jail after, then went on Rogan with Josh and then killed someone and cut their head off. Yeah, like there's real problems there.
- [39:51]
Host 2
Yeah. I'm not saying it couldn't benefit them. All I'm saying is that back to your point of if we're not providing this to those who aren't incarcerated. If we are not offering it to all veterans, why would we even consider offering it to them?
- [40:05]
Advertiser 1
Right.
- [40:05]
Host 1
Because I'm saying. I'm saying there is a value to it. Right. And I'm not saying do it before other people could get it. However, if you're only offering psychedelic therapy to people with severe ptsd, that pool might be small. It might be just some military people, some people that have been through extreme trauma, and then everyone that gets out of prison or everyone that's got out of prison that was in prison for X amount of years. Right.
- [40:44]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [40:45]
Host 1
So then you're working from a small pool of people. So it's not like most people are not getting that service. They just wouldn't need it.
- [40:52]
Host 2
Right.
- [40:53]
Host 1
It's not as required.
- [40:54]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [40:54]
Host 1
I get that it's a more extreme therapy process.
- [40:57]
Host 2
Yeah. I would say this is. Yeah. Kind of an extreme opportunity that, like, they might, you know, incorporate into the rehabilitation programs. But I would say at a fundamental level, there's a lot more they could do.
- [41:09]
Host 1
I don't think it's extremely. I think that we're very close to having a lot of good psychedelic therapies going towards people with PTSD that mainly from the military. And I think through studying that and RFK is probably going to make that happen to some degree. Through studying that, I think we're going to get real close to realizing, oh, a lot of people that are having a really hard time adjusting and changing kind of their thought process and feeling terrible and wanting to lash out, gain a lot from this type of thing.
- [41:49]
Host 2
Do you. Do you think that someone in that sort of extreme position could benefit more from psychedelic therapy than from, say, like, you know, learning how to, you know, or getting a GED so that they can work for a, you know, a better rate when they get out of prison? Do you think that.
- [42:10]
Host 1
No, no. No. Okay. 100% education is the most important thing. Yeah, for sure. Because you can have the best, most enlightening trip ever and then realize that you have no skills at all.
- [42:24]
Host 2
Right.
- [42:25]
Host 1
And you don't even have the ability to get a job. I mean, you got to teach people how to put a resume together.
- [42:30]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [42:30]
Host 1
How to, like, you know, take care of themselves. I mean, I would like to think that they're doing interview trainings in jail before people are getting released. Like, hey, you've got to practice these things that just. You're going to have to get a job, even if it's like a 7 11. Let's sit down. Because you're three weeks away from getting out of jail. And let's talk about how you would do it. Like, introduce yourself, Tell me who you are. Tell me how you got into the situations you've got into. Because you have to explain your criminal record.
- [43:05]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [43:06]
Host 1
And, you know, you can articulate it in ways to where people are not going to just freak out, assume you suck.
- [43:13]
Host 2
Yeah, that. I guess that's what. I was confused when you were talking about it, that you felt like that was like, an easier fix than teaching people how to, like, be an effective human. I'm like.
- [43:24]
Host 1
And also that's great that you brought that up, because people love to do that. They're like, all do mushrooms and it's all fixed. I think Joe sometimes throws that out there, and it's like. I think that the reason he does it is because he got a lot from it, and he's also so highly motivated that he made those changes. So plenty of people, when they're doing those psychedelics are just gonna see what they need to do and then do nothing.
- [43:54]
Host 2
Yeah. He went into his psychedelic journey operating at a higher caliber than. Than most. Right.
- [44:01]
Host 1
So he was already super famous and, like, 30.
- [44:04]
Host 2
Right. He's.
- [44:04]
Host 1
He did his drug use at, like, all the most appropriate times, and he had no idea he was doing that. Fully developed mental state.
- [44:15]
Host 2
Yeah. You know, like, you know, he's a lucky fucker. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's got a great life and, like. But I think his is a very skewed, like, experience and success with, like, his psychedelic journey that I don't think everyone would have. Right.
- [44:33]
Host 1
I know. I don't think it's skewed, though. He also talks about, like, don't do it if you're on the verge of having a breakdown or if you got schizophrenia in your family or you're in a terrible place. Like, I think he gets that. Right.
- [44:47]
Host 2
But, like, he wasn't experiencing those things. So, like, he had his. He just had, like, all green lights basically to be like, hey, go. You know, yeah, yeah, go crazy. Go do whatever you want.
- [44:58]
Host 1
Go head first. But honestly, the saying that though it takes. It takes someone that's, like, really brave in that. I mean, listen, he wasn't gaining any support early on from his podcast by talking about the benefits of mushrooms. Think about it. He wasn't like, no one was like, oh, if anyone. If anything, people were just tuning out. They were like, oh, this druggie. I'm out and I'm not listening. I mean, I know people that were like that. I have friends I went to high school with that were like in the military.
- [45:34]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [45:35]
Host 1
That just heard about those, like, early narratives and they're like, I'm not into this.
- [45:40]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [45:40]
Host 1
So this, you know, even though I like a lot of the way he talks. Not into that. I feel like Joe just believed in what it was, even to the detriment potentially of listenership before it was big, before the show was like really big. And, and, and he just stood with it. And as he's grown in popularity for lots of other reasons. It's not like he brings up mushrooms all the time, but he does it plenty of times.
- [46:11]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [46:12]
Host 1
And it just was a narrative that kind of like, you know, was in his orbit and people loosened up to. And maybe people tried and got into it and adjusted to. And then there we go. Now it's like, it's kind of like a much bigger part of our culture.
- [46:31]
Host 2
Yeah. I think it's.
- [46:32]
Host 1
And potentially almost getting close to being legalized in some places.
- [46:38]
Host 2
Yeah. I mean, in terms of it becoming legalized and like you said, rfk sort of opening the doors for more research to be done on it. I feel like we're going down the same path societally that we did with marijuana. And for so long it was criminalized and there were so many people incarcerated due to possession and use and, you know, the sale and purchase of certain drugs like marijuana. Right. Like, and that whole war on drugs, like, which is such a nightmare. But I'm trying to picture, like, what it would look like for us to then start using drugs like this, even though, like, say it becomes legal in a state like California or Oregon where like, even cannabis is like, imagine if we started just offering cannabis to prisoners who had high levels of anxiety, pain, stress, whatever, in prison. And yet there's people in that prison that are incarcerated because they had that drug on them or like they're serving sentences over it. Oh, yeah, No, I feel like we're pretty far away from.
- [47:37]
Host 1
No, no, no, but I wasn't. I was saying, like upon their release, like, I'm not saying while they're in, they can just get stoned, but like part of their therapy on the way out. Listen, so it would be like a broad range of therapy. Right. So think about it. You go to a psychiatrist, they're an md, they're not therapists. Therapists are better at working with your mind generally. Plenty of psychologists are good as well. I mean, psychiatrists, because they're MDs, they've worked very hard. They took their two year course to like get to the Point where they can also talk to you about your mind. But mostly they're trained on giving you prescription drugs, and then they give you drugs that can massively affect your mental state. Mostly numbing you.
- [48:29]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [48:29]
Host 1
Or doing some, you know, Prozac style therapy. Right. So now you have a therapist that works with you, that gives you a psychedelic experience and then integrates that experience and works through your trauma, maybe. So you're so not mad anymore, and you maybe don't want to shoot someone and cut their head off. I mean, who knows? Right. So it's just part of the process of, like, leaving that institution.
- [48:59]
Host 2
Right.
- [49:00]
Host 1
Because you are going from one system that's very unusual to another. And I don't know if the crossover is that smooth. If this podcast highlights anything, I feel like something was missing there.
- [49:13]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [49:13]
Host 1
At least for that gentleman.
- [49:15]
Host 2
Yeah. Yeah. I think overall, this podcast, listening to Josh and to his genuinity about the passion he has behind the work he does, like, you can tell it takes a real emotional toll on him and that. I mean, as we're sitting here with our minds spinning of all these ideas of how you could do this, you could fix this, you know, here, you could reallocate funds here. But yet his mission is very specific. And you can. You can, like, see, like, hear in his voice how important it is to him. And I'd say that's like, ultimately what I took from it was that this work is exhausting, it's stressful, and that's how he felt. So, like, he felt like he let Joe down coming on the podcast because of what had happened with this other person.
- [50:06]
Host 1
He didn't.
- [50:07]
Host 2
And he didn't know he didn't.
- [50:08]
Host 1
What he did and what he always does is expire. Inspire the conversation we just had where you and I know nothing about the prison system.
- [50:18]
Host 2
We're gonna make no impact. Yeah.
- [50:19]
Host 1
But hold on. But we have. We've thought about it.
- [50:23]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [50:23]
Host 1
And we've had ideas, and we wondered, like, how it could be better or how things could work better. You know, it just keeps it front of mind. It's so easy for that part of society to just be held in the dark.
- [50:36]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [50:36]
Host 1
It's like, oh, we just look forward to our money and our vacations and all the things. And people in prison are just that they're bad people and we don't think about them. And whatever happens in those systems and how in the prison complex is. It's like, it's. Whatever it is.
- [50:53]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [50:53]
Host 1
And we. We're not worried about sad. Yeah. It's it's too easy to do. And it's kind of like at least how I would always think before Josh started coming on Rogan, because I just didn't put any mind to what went on in prisons.
- [51:08]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [51:09]
Host 1
I had no experience with it. I don't know people that are in there. It's just like a place. So I don't know. I. It just seems important. And I'm. I'm really happy to have Josh back on and, and to keep that momentum going until, you know, he brings as much kind of focus as possible onto where the issues are with the justice system. And I would love to see what he's able to do with the Trump administration. I mean, to be fair, Kim Kardashian went into the White House when Trump was in, because I probably. Kanye got him in. Got her in, definitely. And she was like, really pursuing. Trying to get innocent people off.
- [51:59]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [52:00]
Host 1
And I don't know where we're getting more focus like this. Did you hear any of this happening with Biden and.
- [52:06]
Host 2
No.
- [52:07]
Host 1
Yeah. I think it seems like the left should have been the people doing this. Right?
- [52:14]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [52:14]
Host 1
It's like. That's a left thing.
- [52:16]
Host 2
Yeah. Yeah. You would think it would be 20 years ago. It would be, you know, like that was.
- [52:20]
Host 1
Do we. I don't know. I keep thinking that it's just flipped over.
- [52:25]
Host 2
Yeah. I mean, it sounds in many ways.
- [52:28]
Host 1
Anyway. All right, Great episode. Love that Josh legend. Well done for being back and appreciate you guys for listening. We talked to you next week.
- [52:37]
Host 2
Cheers, y'all.
- [52:44]
Host 1
It's better over here now.
- [52:46]
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