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412 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Evan Hafer
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- [00:00]
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- [01:01]
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Are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you. Perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's walking Dead. Enjoy the show.
- [01:21]
Adam Thorne
Podcast, you're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review.
- [01:25]
Aaron
What a bizarre thing we've created now with your host Adam Thorne. Might either be the worst podcast or the best one.
- [01:33]
Adam Thorne
One Go.
- [01:35]
Geico Advertiser
Enjoy the show.
- [01:35]
Adam Thorne
Yes, that's fun. Hey guys and welcome to another episode of the JRE Review. This is. This is a good one. We are reviewing Evan Hafer's conversation with Rogan and I wanted to bring a good buddy of mine, a special guest, Aaron, who is retired Special Forces and has knows these types of stories that Evan was getting into. And why I wanted to do it is because I was shocked with how little I knew about what went on over there in Afghanistan or what their culture's like or any of it. And it's, it's not like I expected to know a lot, but this was just way out there for me. And to think that military people have to do all the shit they had to do over there. And on top of that there's this other weird dynamic that maybe they can't couldn't even really talk about or feel comfortable talking about. I was like, I don't know, it's just some wild shit. So Aaron, glad to have you here buddy.
- [02:48]
Aaron
Yeah, thanks, Adam. I appreciate it. It was a good podcast.
- [02:51]
Adam Thorne
So, you know, we were talking a little bit before about, you know, you know, some people that know Evan, you, you hadn't heard him talk much or articulate much of his experience and, and so on. What, what was your feel for him? Like, when you're listening to him talk and knowing other guys in that world, like, what's your feel?
- [03:14]
Aaron
Yeah, that's a great question. So, like, I think that guys like that are automatically separated from like, you're just like typical run of the mill veteran. And I don't say that to be mean, but the first thing I noticed about him is that he's, he's comfortable with himself. He articulates the truth. He, he was brave in the sense that he was able to talk about a lot of things that nobody talks about. It's, it's, it's mostly what people don't want to hear. And I just, I was immediately just drawn into the podcast based on the content and yeah, it's just like what he was able to articulate gave me some words for things that I didn't know how to talk about. And you just don't hear too many people going into the nuances of cultures and war and bureaucratic and like, just like the ambivalence of military service of like, man, it's like it made us who we were, but all of these other things also happened. And so I really appreciated the podcast. You know, he is no one that I've worked with before, but definitely connected through probably like one or two people. So, yeah, I like the podcast. I thought if anybody really wants to know what life is like in the special operations, specifically Iraq, Afghanistan, it's, it's a good listen.
- [04:46]
Adam Thorne
Now, what do you think it is about him? And obviously this is just, you know, it's a four and a half hour pod that it's maybe not enough to get like a real idea, but, but what was it about him, do you think, that allows him to articulate this message so differently than, than other Special Forces guys, for example? I mean, one thing I noticed from him is he just. There wasn't a ton of ego in that conversation. I know he knows Joe, but yeah, he was. There wasn't like bravado coming from him, and I was wondering if that was helping him get his message across. I mean, he immediately talked about his pants, which I thought was fucking hilarious.
- [05:31]
Aaron
But you meet, you meet any Special Operations guys, they're gonna, they're gonna love talking about their pants. I did I shit my pants several times in the military. It was great. It made for some great stories. I shit myself in sear school when I was in the Special Forces Q course. And I saw guys seven years later running down Disney, which is a road in Bagram Air Force Base. And like the incident, I saw this guy, he was like, hey, dude, I don't remember your name, but I remember you shit your pants in Searschool. But anyway, yeah, I think to answer your question, yeah, I didn't really. I didn't really feel or sense any ego. And I think really, dude, it just comes down to just. The guy doesn't give a fuck. He is. He knows who he is. He has sifted through and avoided the, you know, like he said, working for the man. He's created a life for himself that he can be honest. He's not selling anything. Like, dude, black, black rifle coffee does pretty well. He wasn't on there trying to be a caricature of himself, which I appreciated. I think he was just honest up front. You know, the stories that he told were articulate and they also had a lot of humility that that come with them. I think the one that comes to mind that I really appreciated was his story about freaking out in. In his first ambush. I mean, that was me too. And the quote that he gave was so potent about psychology being as contagious as the flu.
- [07:12]
Adam Thorne
Oh yeah.
- [07:12]
Aaron
And dude, that could be. That could be written on the walls of many, many different organizations. And people would tell me people could operate that way. If people could operate that way and understand the severity of like, how much you exude in your behavior and how you present yourself is going to rub off on everyone around you. And I experienced situation very similar to what he described. We got spun up for a quick response force to go in because there was an IED that blew up another oda, which is another special forces team. And we were all freaking out in the ready room. You know, we were over in Afghanistan and our team sergeant just like, who was super calm most of the time. I would say like 90 of the time. He just was like, hey, everybody shut the up. Stop. We're going to do three things. We're gonna get on a helicopter, we're gonna secure the objective, and then, you know, we're gonna make sure that team is safe so they can get out of there. And that was it. And everybody shut up. And they kept going. You need someone in a position of authority to bring people back to reality, right? And the next part of that is like, dude, you don't have a solution to a problem. Shut the up. And I love. That's a great. I, I do. Dude. I feel like I have wanted to say that at work, in my civilian job a thousand times, but it just, it doesn't, it doesn't translate as well as it does to a type personalities. But, but anyway, yeah, I appreciated that. I think that he is a guy who has made a lot of success for himself to the point where he doesn't need to sell anything. He's just there telling a story that's very truthful. And the other part of it is he's around special operations guys all the time. I mean all the guys that work at Black Rifle, all the people that he's associated with. When you, when you put yourself in a position where you're always around people like that, it makes you better. And you know, that's a big part of my, my desire would be to, to do that, to be around people that have a similar mindset that can operate off of, you know, just being around good, solid, a type people that want to get things done. And yeah, have, have just like a, an unconventional outlook on life. And so he, he's doing that all the time, which is probably amazing. And so yeah, I just appreciated, I appreciated the way he showed up. And yeah, for. It was a four hour podcast. I was driving back from eastern Montana on a hunt and so I had the time for it and it says a lot to me that like the least, the least interesting part of the podcast was the hunting part. And usually that's the part I like the most.
- [10:24]
Adam Thorne
Yeah, which was still good. But there was just so many points in this four and a half hour. I mean four and a half hours is a long Rogan. So as soon as I saw that time stamp, I was like, oh, they're getting into some stuff for sure.
- [10:36]
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. And what they're, what they were getting into was potent. You know, it's potent to the, to the times, it's potent to the history of, of going to war. And like dude, and what he said about like the warmongers and war hawks like Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld and Bush. It's like, dude, they, they up a lot of people's lives.
- [11:03]
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- [11:16]
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- [11:31]
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- [12:01]
Aaron
Like, wow, you don't, you don't hear a lot of people say that. And it's like, I loved how Hafer went into, like, hey, you know, like, if you knew this stuff and you know about weapons, mass destruction, you knew they weren't real, whatever, why'd you stay in? And it's like, well, you stay in because you've, you've invested yourself so much in this process and you've met so many good dudes that, like, doesn't make any sense to just get out. And so you just trudge through the 20 years of service trying to hopefully find some, like, sparkle of, like, honor in the way that you operated in the world. And it's just, it's really tough, man. And I would say that, like, a lot of the nuances that Hair went into in this podcast outlines a lot of the reasons that people are angry, a lot of the reasons that veterans are angry, a lot of reasons that veterans don't feel understood because they've been through this meat grinder and they come out the other side. And then you're suddenly faced with, like, this, yo, here's the civilian world. This is how we operate. Which is nothing like, especially the special operations. It's, it's so foreign.
- [13:14]
Adam Thorne
You know, what's interesting from a lot of what you've told me, and you kind of do hear it when you listen to other Special Forces guys do podcasts. And that's really, like, the best way to kind of get more of a sense of, you know, just their experience and what's important to them. And more and more of them have come out to talk about, you know, the PTSD side or the suicide side or the side that, you know, makes them feel confused and sad about coming back to regular life. And it all often comes back to the same point where, and you've talked about it before. When we've discussed things like when you're reconnecting with those guys, and maybe not even guys you knew directly when you were in the service, but they did a similar thing. So you're. You're like all the same brotherhood. It's like, that seems really beneficial. And obviously what Evan's done is created a company that surrounds yourself with those people. And I just wonder why, of all the stuff that the VA does or whatever, discharge, you know, like programs that they have in the military, why do they not push to be like, hey, also, when you get back into civilian life, we're going to connect you with people close to you that were also over there so you can have your own. Like, stay in connection with this community will help in all of these transitions. That, to me, seems like they could have figured that out fairly quickly.
- [14:43]
Aaron
Yeah, I think it's pretty nuanced, though. I think it's like, it's kind of hard to do. It'd be like setting up a dating app or something. It's just really hard to get point.
- [14:52]
Adam Thorne
Yeah. How would you connect everyone?
- [14:54]
Aaron
You know, like, how would you. Yeah, how would you go about that? Like, I get a good Facebook group, like, Special Operations. Well, that's the other thing. A lot of guys from Special Operations aren't on Facebook, including myself. And so it's like, part of the reason that guys are probably stay so angry is they continue to feed into social media and the bullshit that comes with it. I have removed that part from my life, which has made my life a lot better. But I'll tell you, like, I work occasionally with a company called Clandestine Media Group, and. And a couple of the guys that run that used to work or still do work for Black Rifle company, so they're pretty associated with. With Evan as well. And I'll tell you, dude, when I go out there, like, they don't pay me a ton of money, but, like, dude, when I come back, there's a noticeable difference in my attitude. There's a noticeable difference in my mood. Like, my wife loves when I go out to do these photo shoots because they do content for, like, I don't know, all these brands that make pouches and ammo and drones and, you know, all the defense and military stuff they do, they. They make content for them. And I'll tell you, like, the value isn't going out there and, like, getting to be a model for these shoots. The value is that, like, all of a sudden, I went from my 9 to 5 job out to this, like, warehouse in the Middle of nowhere, and you walk in there, and they've got a vault full of awesome guns and, like, gear. And then all of a sudden, you start meeting dudes that have, like, done what you've done or something similar. There's already an immediate trust. There's banter. Like, the way that you and I banter is similar to, like, how team guys do. And, like, dude, it's just such a comfortable environment for me because I can go in and be myself. And, dude, it's usually brutal in terms of, like, the physicality. Like, I'm. I just turned 40. And so, dude, I go in there and they're like, hey, put, you know, 60 pounds of gear on. We're gonna run around in the. In the. You know, in the dirt for. For 12 hours. And I'm like, okay, let's do this. And it smokes me. It's. It's not, like, relaxed work, but it's. But I'm around my community. That's the point. I'm around the people that understand me, and I understand them, and I'm not, like, projecting myself onto them or vice versa. And it just. Dude, it's like a team room. It feels like a big team room with a bunch of dudes and some chicks, and it's. It's a good time. You know, it's. It's a. It's. To me, it's a relaxed environment when you can sit there and drink coffee and, like, tell stories and, like, laugh about shit that, like, you probably can't even tell. Most of the stories we tell in your civilian job, just because of the. Just because of the content of the stories, but we get each other. We understand each other. So I think you just. As a veteran, you got to go find those things. You have to go discover those little gems of social interaction with people that you really love and the people that you enjoy being around. But, you know, it's like a little dose of medicine for me once a month or so to go out there and hang with those guys.
- [18:20]
Adam Thorne
Yeah, I mean, it's hard when you didn't have any experience like that to kind of relate. And in a weird way, I imagine it is like when you're at the, like, employee Christmas party, but you don't like your job, and you don't like any of your employees, and you just there because you gotta be, and you're looking around not enjoying any of the interactions. And it's. And it's almost the sense I get when I talk to you sometimes about the differences between spending Time with your special forces people and other interactions that you have with like, you know, the people that didn't have that experience right, or working in places like that. It just seems to be of like a massive comfort that you have. The closest thing I think of is like when I did stand up comedy, I mean I liked hanging out with other comedians. Honestly, dude, you didn't even have to like them. They could be annoying, they could have taken your spots, they could have half stolen your jokes and done them better. But I still enjoy spending time with them and that whole community over all other types of people, even my closest guy friends that I grew up with, because the shit talking, the comedy mindset that just that constant grind, like we knew how to bomb, right? We knew how to like do terrible in a, in a five minute bit and just laugh at ourselves and get on with it. It's like, it's, it is powerful to find your community no matter what. It is.
- [19:58]
Aaron
100 and like, here's, here's like the common denominator that I hear is like the shared suffering. And so there, there is a selection process. There is an arduous physical, you know, assessment that you have to go through to get into any, you know, any part of the special operations. And so like the way that I've experienced it is that you trust these guys implicitly until you can't. And they're not all great like you said. And I will tell you that I had guys on my team that I didn't necessarily care for. But like, I tell the story all the time about there was a medic that I had on my team that I just like didn't get along with. We didn't share the same values personally. But I'll tell you that I wouldn't, I would never want another person working on me if I was injured in combat. And so like that guy at a Christmas party, fine with me because I know he's doing his thing. I respect him as a soldier. He, you know, he, he may be kind of a turd, or not even a turd, but just kind of a piece of in his personal life. But like, dude, I can get past that. If a guy can really like go and master his craft and figure out like, okay, how can I be useful in this situation? And so like, yeah, it's the shared suffering. You know, you let go of the things that like, you don't necessarily, you know, agree with, with people. But if you go into your 9 to 5, like, it's really hard for me to connect with People that haven't been through the stuff that I've been through. And you don't want to come out and say that kind of stuff like, oh, you haven't, you know, you haven't done what I've done. And it's like, no, dude, that's not really the point. The point is that you, you've just marinated in this shit for so many years that it just makes sense to be around people that have done the same shit. It just, it just does.
- [21:53]
Adam Thorne
Well, dude, it's, I see. It's not an unreasonable thing to even think when you're talking of like suffering.
- [22:04]
Aaron
It's better over here.
- [22:06]
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- [23:02]
Adam Thorne
Get more with Geico or kind of crazy trauma built experiences. I mean, I've known trust fund kids in LA that were complaining about X, Y and Z and you know, how their dad didn't get them, didn't rent the boat for their 21st birthday and that, you know, and they're complaining and they're sad and they're annoyed. Well, to them that's real. But to somebody that was poor and grew up poor and was like, what the are you talking about? You mean you actually love your dad and he cares for you? That's nice. Like there's just levels to. So it probably is really difficult to be in a grocery store after coming back from a few tours and somebody's complaining that it's, I don't know, the Starbucks is taking too long to make that fucking latte.
- [23:53]
Aaron
It doesn't make it. That's the problem is that it doesn't make any sense. Like when you go to a country where like, people are living in dirt huts. Like, it feels like you go back in a time machine when you get to Afghanistan. I mean, they're literally living as arduous as you could imagine. And like, I really connected and felt a lot of emotion when they, I think when Haper was talking about, like these kids, dude. Like, these kids that are like living on the, on the streets on their own with no parents and they're begging for food and it's like, dude, that's so hard for me to even think about still of just being there and like, trying to, like, trying to like, wrap my head around what these kids might like, how scared these kids might be. And then you're talking like five, six, seven years old and the. Just the amount of intense poverty and suffering that you see on a daily basis and it really takes you back. And there's no way to prepare for that. There's no way to prepare a guy to go over that. Like, grew up in Ohio and just like saw life as like, oh yeah, you know, there's some homeless people here and there, but everybody else is doing all right. And then you go to a place where like, like Bangladesh. Like if someone dies in a car accident, they just throw them in the ditch, dude. Like, and then they just keep going. Like, don't value life in these countries like we do here. And so to be, you know, 24 years old and see something like that is like, oh, wow, that's interesting. Like, no one can, no one can prepare you for that.
- [25:44]
Adam Thorne
I. Yeah.
- [25:45]
Aaron
And then when you come back, I mean, just the idea, complaining about their.
- [25:51]
Adam Thorne
Just the idea that like, little kids at that age, 5 and 6, homeless and begging and you know, to the people there, it's like somewhat normalized because, you know, if you saw one 6 year old in the US even in a very poor area, they're quickly going to be scooped up by somebody and helped. And it's like, it's one thing for us to have like quite a few homeless people, you know, when it comes to like LA or maybe San Francisco or some of these biggest cities where it's kind of getting out of control, but it's not made up of like, little kids. You know, there's like that protective energy.
- [26:30]
Aaron
No, there's not.
- [26:31]
Adam Thorne
No one in our society would tolerate yet there. It's not only that they don't have that, but then there's this next level that Evan was talking about of basically like rampant abuse there in a. In a really, what sounds like just unbelievable way, like to just even Think that that happens anywhere. It's a little tough to have sympathy for. For people that. That could treat other humans like that.
- [27:06]
Aaron
Like, baked into their culture. It's historically baked in. And, like, I love the question that Rogan had, which is, like, how long do you think it would take to, like, breed that out of their. You know, out of their value system or, you know, out of the way that they operate? And it's like, who knows, man? But, yeah, I'll tell you that that's still something that no one wants to hear about. And that. Yeah, I mean, that's. Dude, I spent a lot of time over in Bangladesh, in Afghanistan, and, like, that's a totally normal thing. It's not taboo to have. You know, I even hate talking about it. Like, I hesitate to even, like, let this roll off my tongue, but to like, have a. Basically a. A sex slave as a child, it's a normal thing. And that is insane to me.
- [27:58]
Adam Thorne
And now. And did they say. And Evan said this. They. They was like, you've got to just deal with the culture, right? Like, hey, if they're holding hands, try and join in there. But obviously you're seeing this stuff happen. You know, it's happening. You see a guy walking around with a young boy holding his hand, like, you know what that is? And how do they kind of have you navigate that? I mean, obviously you got a job to do. You've got other things to do. But are they. Do they tell you, like, hey, leave that alone. That's not your business.
- [28:28]
Aaron
They don't. And. And like, dude, you hear stories. So I was 19 years old, sitting in a tower in Kuk, Iraq. And, like, I think I'd been there in country for maybe a week, and I heard people talking about, like, man, love Thursdays. And, you know, all these weird little terms I didn't understand until I was looking through a thermal into a farmhouse. And, like, I see these guys just like, yeah, dude. Like, they're butt each other in this barn, and like, I'm watching them through these thermals going, holy. And then like a day later, you see a guy, a, you know, a goat or a sheep or whatever, and it's like, this is real. This is actually happening. Like, it's not comfortable, and it's just so extreme that you're just like, holy. And like, it's only talked to. It's only talked about, like, peer to peer. Like, the leadership isn't saying, like, hey, you know what? Like, this is part of their culture. Like, you know, get over it or like, this is how they've been operating for years. You just have to assume that, like, dude, this is. This is some crazy. And I loved, like. I love the idea of, like, they talked about, like, liberal people really wanting to protect these, like, cultures and, you know, these people. And it's like, yeah, it's just like, trying to protect, like, a grizzly bear. Like, have you ever seen a male grizzly bear, like, eat its cub alive because he got pissed off? It's like, yeah, like, that happens. Grizzly bear running around in New York City. No. Like, I don't know, man. Like, you. You. You tell me. Like, you go. You go to Afghanistan, you go to Bangladesh, and you see the intensity at which these people operate on such a crazy level of, like, lack of human value. And I don't know, dude. Like, I don't know when it started. I don't know the ins and outs of it. I don't know what happens to boys or to men and, like, how many or whatever. But it's a huge thing. And so you can't tell me that you. You don't have to worry about those things.
- [30:50]
Adam Thorne
The big question that I. And you already hit that point when Joe said, how long does it take to get it out of the culture? And. And this is where it gets slippery. And I think why people don't want to talk about it or mention it is because then it seems like you're not only talking down about those people, all of the people that live there. You're almost separating yourself from them, being like, I'm better. They're not as good. Like, what they do is disgusting. It's like this demon dehumanizing kind of element. But to give it. To give it some. Some, like, reality that is unusual behavior compared to what would be considered more, dare I say, advanced civilizations. But, like, countries that are more developed, like, it's. It's not happening at that rampant level. There is, like, a more primitive element to that behavior. If you could say it that way and then go on.
- [31:57]
Aaron
No. So, like, I try to think of it this way. It's like, all right, if you go down, like, some of these South American countries, like, some of their, like, ceremony and ritual and, like, part of their history is to, like, bury their dead, like, under their house and, like, bring them out every now and then and hang out with them, like, there's a video on.
- [32:19]
Adam Thorne
Like.
- [32:20]
Aaron
Like, they bring them out and they, like, put cigarettes in their mouth and they hang out with them, and they're like, that's their connection. To their dead. That's odd behavior for us, right? That's interesting. That's really, like, pretty morbid. But to me, that's acceptable. Like, that's an ex. Like, if I really look into it, it's like, wow, that's acceptable. Like, if I had a way to connect with my dad and I grew up that way, like, yeah, dude, I'd probably put them underneath my house and bring them out and dress them every now and then. It's. It's. It's weird.
- [32:47]
Adam Thorne
It.
- [32:48]
Aaron
It's weird. In contrast to how we are raised in America and the things that we do, it's not clean, it's whatever. But on the other hand, like, stripping a child, nobody gets hurt. Stripping a child of their innocence and like, treating people in a way that's so intensely just, like, wrong in the way that we've been. We've been assimilated to life. It's just like, it's. It's just confusing to wrap your head around. I don't think there's a right answer. I don't. I don't know what the solution is. But for me, especially having children, like, it's. It's a huge deal to me, and I can't get past it. And things can exist at the same time. So, yes, it's baked into their culture. Yes, it's ancestral trauma. Yes, it's this and that. But, like, why does it continue to be okay? And, like, are we the world police? Are we the ones to tell different cultures that they can't do this and they can't do that? I don't. I don't know. I don't think so. Like, are they going to assimilate eventually? Maybe. I don't really know. But it is so counter to the way that we treat each other and the way that we. Most people, at least. And so, I don't know, culture aside.
- [34:18]
Adam Thorne
I don't even need to, like, interview those poor kids to find out that it is horrific for them for sure.
- [34:25]
Aaron
Exactly.
- [34:26]
Adam Thorne
It is just. I mean, there's so many examples of how damaging that is and having that be rampant through your culture. I mean, it's. It's like Joe was saying, this is probably going to take. That would take multiple generations, even if you could stamp it out today, because, yeah, they would. They would know. That's what they.
- [34:46]
Aaron
I mean, whatever. I. I don't know. And that's. And that's why it's so potent, and that's why I appreciated even, like, having people understand that. That is just the Reality is like it's better over here.
- [34:59]
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- [36:22]
Aaron
Yep.
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- [36:27]
Aaron
That's kind of a good step in the right direction.
- [36:29]
Adam Thorne
Yeah.
- [36:31]
Aaron
And like, yeah, it's a long form podcast. It's open, there's a lot of people listening and I would assume that a lot of people were like impacted in the sense that you were. Which is like, holy shit. They're not talking about that on Fox News. No, you don't see, you don't see that in, in documentaries. But like that is the reality. And I think you get somewhat like numb to it because it's just, that's what happens, man. And right. It's, it's, it's not cool.
- [36:59]
Adam Thorne
And this kind of highlights some more elements. It's like we've heard for a while that possibly psilocybin or different psychedelics combined with therapy can help people with PTSD or that have gone through these traumas. Well, that's one thing. Right. So that's a category of like, the data is showing that it helps. And there's anecdotal data as well from these military personnel that are like, hey, this really helped me. I didn't have to go back on my antidepressants or whatever, I stopped drinking. But it's also, I think, another part of the story to highlight why they're in that position in the first place. Because, you know, regular civilians like myself just have this idea, oh, well, they were in combat. They shot people. There was a lot of bombs going off around them, and that's why they have ptsd. And it's like, hold on. There's a lot more to this story.
- [37:55]
Aaron
Yeah.
- [37:56]
Adam Thorne
And I think that. I think, you know, not to freak everyone out, but the more that they get to know and understand, it's like, hey, we should do every fucking thing we can to help these individuals when they get back from that place. That's what I'm really hoping, like, RFK can kind of lean towards, start working with. I mean, say what you want about the new administration, but if he can get some more legalization of these things to kind of help these guys, it just helps put the whole picture together of, like, oh, this is why it's so important.
- [38:34]
Aaron
I mean, hey, I loved the, you know, the vulnerability of. Of Evan Hafer when he said, you know, I didn't understand how to connect with love. And, like, right. That. That. That's a. That's a really, like, potent statement, and it's. It's the truth. And I think he said that, like, mushrooms helped him get there. Well, it was the same with me, like, going down to south america and spending 10 days doing psilocybin and ayahuasca. It wasn't like a party drug. I think that's one thing. Another thing they articulated. It's like, it's not a. You know, you're not like, oh, let's see the fireworks. No, it's like, hey, let's take a step back and, like, try to rewire our brains to go back to this spot in our life where we knew how to love, we knew how to connect with people. And it, like, gives you, like. To me, psychedelics gave me the opportunity to, like, take a knee from, like, the insanity that goes on in my head. And then it was like, oh, by the way, here's some tools to continue to take a knee and to, like, help heal a lot of the things that you've been through. And, yeah, it's like, dude, I know. I know that these things work. There's a million guys that go down to. Not a million, but there's several hundred guys. I know they have gone down to do psychedelics, and they've come back with value. Like, no one, no one that I know of has come back or has not come back and said, oh, I lost my mind and I like jumped out of a window and, you know, a 60 story window because I was, I lost my. No, dude. Like, it's intense and like, you gotta see and feel and like kind of like grit your way through some old stuff. But like, at the end of the day, it's like taking off a snowsuit of bullshit. And I was like, wow, that's a pretty cool feeling that I haven't felt in, like, since before I got in the military. But of course, why don't we advocate for that more? And why is it illegal for us to go do something that clearly helps?
- [40:39]
Adam Thorne
Because we needed somebody very serious that's in a position to make those decisions that also doesn't mind upsetting people. And I can't think of a better person for that than RFK right now. You know, the hope is in the future that it's people that aren't trying to upset everybody that are regular politicians that also advocate for their people. But no one's really been advocating for this. It's like slowly but surely MAPS has got a little bit more, you know, now they can do a little bit of MDMA therapy, but it's like the process is real slow while a lot of suicides are still taking place. And it, it seems like a process that needs to move quicker.
- [41:25]
Aaron
Yeah, I mean, it's moving a lot quicker now than it was when I went down there. I would say that, like, I was part of like that first generation of folks that like, heard Rogan talking about psychedelics and like, when you take a, like a special operations guy out of a team and like, we're not gonna go follow a bunch of like hippie, bead and feather wearing individuals. Like, like, I think, I think like, what the value for Rogan is that he gave some sort of permission and like the folks that he had interviewed and like, gave gave value to those experiences in a way that seemed like, oh, wow, this can help me. This is helpful. And I think if you find a special operations guy, they're going to go towards the unconventional solution, which is like, yeah, I don't give a if this, if this helps. I'll find my way down to Peru, I'll find my way down to Mexico. And that's what I would invite anybody to do. That's like either listening to this podcast or knows of a veteran, it's like, dude, go figure it out. Like, I pay for, I pay out of pocket for all of my medical care. I Don't go to the va. I don't. I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed back at the VA in Bozeman because of the way that I have interacted with those folks, because I'm. I'm outspoken. And I'll tell you, like, the first time I went to the VA in Bozeman, they gave me this, like, survey to take. And it's like, hey, on a level of 1 to 10, how much anxiety do you feel? And I think I put, like, a three. And like, towards the end of the. The session, the nurse came in and the doctor came in, and they're like, we have some. We have some medication for you. And I'm like, why? And they're like, well, you did mark a 3 of anxiety out of 10 on your little. You know, on your little assessment.
- [43:20]
Adam Thorne
Seems low, though. Yeah. And I go, no anxiety.
- [43:25]
Aaron
Well, I told the lady, I said, do you realize this may be the first time I've told the truth on one of these surveys? Like, when you're in the special operations, especially if you're operational, you're going to schools, you're deploying, you're doing all kinds of shit. You don't want anyone to think that you have any level of liability to you, so you just say, zero. How many drinks do you have per month? Zero. Do you feel depressed? Zero. Are you anxious? Zero. And so, like, here I am in a va, going, you know what? I'm going to. I'm going to tell the truth this time. And then to be told that I'm going to be prescribed benzos because I was a 3 out of 10, like, that's the problem. And I told the woman, I told the doctor that she was part of the problem. So, anyways, my whole point is that.
- [44:17]
Adam Thorne
I don't mean to laugh, but it's good for you for saying that out of pocket.
- [44:22]
Aaron
For all my medical care, I see a neuroendocrinologist who specializes in tbi, ptsd, all that kind of stuff. And so hormone. Hormone therapy, and this is the stuff that actually works. I would say if you're a veteran and you're trying to grind your way through the va, like, figure out where you can cut some of your finances and go find things that truly work, go listen to people that are doing similar things, and then, guess what? Your health and your mental health and your ability to operate as a human is way more important than waiting on them to find a solution. Like, I can't wait for the va. I can't wait for my primary care doctor in Bozeman to give me a solution so I can, like, be a better dad and a better husband and be healthy and show up. Like, that's not going to work. I have to go search for it and grind through it and figure out how to pay for it. And that's what I've done for the past five years, is like, okay, I listen to Rogan, I listen to this guy, I listen to that guy, listen to Sean Ryan. I'm like, wait a minute, all these guys are going to go do these things. And to me, what needs to happen is, like. And maybe it exists, and I just don't know about it. But some central hub of, like, trusted providers that people can go to to get help, whether it's psychedelics, whether it's hormone therapy, whether it's talk therapy, something that can actually achieve a solution for a person. And, like, the other part of it is, is who advocates for these things? So if a guy who's like. Like, Rogan doesn't just advocate for anyone. I think he, like, really sits and takes a step back and go, goes, okay, this guy's smart. He did this, he did that. There's a bunch of trial and error, and I've heard 70 some veterans come in and say that this works. So I'm going to advocate for it. I'm going to, like, present it to the public, and then people can go, oh, cool, all right, let's try that.
- [46:31]
Adam Thorne
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what it's going to take, right? It's just more and more credible people that are legit that people are listening to. And again, hopefully in government like RFK that are willing to say, hey, I don't give a fuck about profits on this end. We gotta help these people, and we've gotta at least do the research. You know, I mean, that's always just the key. It's almost like they know it's gonna be so effective, they're scared to do the research because then it makes antidepressants, like, completely pointless. Or the benzo level of pill care that they want to give out just wipes it off the map. And I don't know. I feel like we're close. I feel hopeful, you know, do I feel like we're going to discover aliens first? Maybe it might be aliens before we get the psychedelic care for veterans, but they're both on the right path. It's good. We're not going backwards. The last thing I want to hit on before you get going, because I know you need to go track down an animal. And I appreciate your time, Aaron, but the last thing is talking about something, you know, Trump's brought up about the cartels. You know, obviously they're big, they're powerful, more powerful than ever. They're savage. What would it look like if our special forces got unleashed on them? Would it be what Evan is saying? Is it an absolute, I mean, obviously very difficult. It's going to, would take a long time. It wouldn't be this checkmate massacre. But I mean, what kind of skills and training, you know, versus the other side are we looking at? Is it, is it just flatlining them?
- [48:19]
Aaron
I, I mean, so two things. So first of all, I do agree with Hafer that like they would, they would not understand the level of violence that would be unleashed in the, the rapid amount of time that it would happen. It would just be like the technology, the human, like everything is already there. It's set in place. You've got war fighters that have been doing this for 20, 30 years. And so yeah, there's like, I don't think there's ever been such an unprecedented release of like something of this magnitude where we would have the freedom to go in. And if it was, if it was granted, yeah, I would be very curious to see what happened and I'd be very, I'd be inclined to like, see if I could maybe get back on a team. Because guess what? That's a worthwhile mission. Like, it's a huge problem. Right?
- [49:15]
Adam Thorne
And the other dudes, that's crazy. Like 200,000Americans or something.
- [49:25]
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- [50:25]
Aaron
Bring up the fact that, okay, there's supply and demand and you take out the supplier, there's still a demand. And so, like, the honesty of, like, we have to, like, figure out how to reform our scheduling process for drugs and legalities and all that stuff, people are going to still want cocaine. It's not just going to go away. However, I think that, like, right now we have such a influx of very bad people that have gotten into our country very easily. And we have to build some sort of task force. We have to be very intentional and, you know, we have to be very violent and aggressive in the way that we approach this because they don't, they don't care. The cartel isn't just going to, like, go, oh, okay, like, I'll go back. They're not going to put their hands up. They're. They're going to fight. So to me, there has to be some example made. Like, I don't know. I would love to see. I would love to see it happen. I don't really know how much, like, putting the military into civilian, like, conflicts like, in country are going to be, like, successful. But what I would tell you is that, like, if you are going to, like, release tier one units on a very, very systemic issue that needs solved, like, yeah, it's going to be interesting. And I think it's. I think it'll be. I think it'll be helpful. I really do.
- [52:03]
Adam Thorne
It sounds wild and it sounds like a movie. It sounds like a movie I'd want to watch for sure.
- [52:07]
Aaron
I feel like we're living in a movie already. Like, the laugh, especially, like, the last couple years have felt like a movie to me. And yeah, like, I think Rogan even said, you know, who wrote this? Like, this is good writing. Like, you can't make this shit up.
- [52:25]
Adam Thorne
That's a good point, man. Well, look, if it is a movie, then let's try and be the heroes of that movie. Let's not be the bad guys. How about that?
- [52:34]
Aaron
Right? Yeah.
- [52:36]
Adam Thorne
Aaron, I want to thank you for joining me today. This really helped. You know, I didn't even want to review this one just with my regular co host because we needed, we needed some more experience with this just to kind of. It would have just been if I was just like, giving my opinion of what I just heard. We needed, we needed some expertise in. And some experience. So I'm glad you could join me today. I appreciate your time and everyone out there. Thanks for listening. Hope this helps. If you haven't heard the Evan Heffer one, make sure you listen to it. Hafer Sorry, it's a long. It's a long pod, but it's worth it. And yeah, like Aaron was saying, he articulates things really well. He sounds like a super cool dude. But yeah, thanks a lot Aaron and talk to you guys next week.
- [53:27]
Aaron
You bet.
- [53:34]
Adam Thorne
It's better over here now.
- [53:36]
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- [54:32]
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