428 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Magnus Carlson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Joe Rogan Experience Review Episode #428 – Magnus Carlsen

Released on February 26, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode #428 of the Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast, hosts Adam Thorne and his co-host Aiden delve into the recent Joe Rogan Experience episode featuring chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen. The discussion spans Carlsen's unparalleled chess prowess, controversies in the chess world, the intersection of artificial intelligence and chess, and Carlsen's personal philosophies and strategies.

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Magnus Carlsen's Chess Genius

Adam and Aiden begin by marveling at Carlsen's extraordinary chess abilities, highlighting his status as the greatest chess player of all time with an impressive rating of 2800.

• Adam Thorne [00:20]: "Magnus Carlsen, who Rogan talked to recently, is the highest level of it. I mean, the yet greatest chess player of all time, right? Highest ranked ever."

They liken Carlsen to a "human computer," emphasizing his ability to maintain calm under immense pressure— a trait essential for excelling in chess.

• Aiden [02:30]: "He's the only one who has a chance at some of these AI systems that they're creating for chess."

The Controversy Surrounding Hans Niemann

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the controversy involving chess player Hans Niemann and allegations of cheating.

• Aiden [05:34]: "There was the instances with Neiman cheating in the past on Chess.com to play those higher-rated players because he thought he had the ability to."

Carlsen's skepticism about Niemann's performances, especially in classical board games, raises questions about the integrity of competitive chess.

• Adam Thorne [07:45]: "Figuring out what the best move is in that situation and capitalizing on that is just those tiny slip-ups that can make the entire game."

They also discuss Carlsen's interactions with Russian grandmasters who could identify his playstyle, adding another layer to the cheating allegations.

• Aiden [06:30]: "He was able to figure out that these anonymous accounts were Magnus Carlsen. So these people who are at the top of their game can recognize that."

AI and the Future of Chess

The hosts explore the impact of artificial intelligence on chess, particularly how AI systems like AlphaZero have revolutionized chess strategies.

• Aiden [18:00]: "Mixed with deep neural networks, too, dude. Lots of the theories that people are like, he brought this up back in 2020, when AlphaZero came out."

They consider how AI influences modern players and speculate on the future dynamics between human intuition and machine precision in chess.

• Adam Thorne [19:55]: "We could have a new game because there's like billions of moves, right? Potential. Immediately, it's like exponential on top of each other."

Carlsen's Approach and Philosophy

Adam and Aiden admire Carlsen's humble and intuitive approach to chess, contrasting it with more regimented training methods seen in other top players.

• Aiden [24:36]: "He just trusts himself and his brain to know what's best for him in that moment."

They appreciate Carlsen's desire to keep chess as a fun hobby rather than a strenuous job, which they believe contributes to his sustained excellence.

• Adam Thorne [25:29]: "He has to perform, you know, like LeBron James. It's like, I'm here for the fans or for the winning. But he also wants it to be this fun hobby."

AI and Robotics in Chess

The conversation shifts to the potential integration of AI and robotics in chess training and gameplay. They speculate about humanoid robots like Tesla’s Optimus potentially assisting players in learning and improving their game.

• Adam Thorne [21:02]: "It feels like chess would be the most natural [game for robots]."

They envision scenarios where robots could serve as interactive coaches, providing real-time feedback and personalized strategies.

• Aiden [22:21]: "With a robot, you could actually just have them talk to you in person. Feels like an actual coach or something."

Nootropics and Mental Enhancement

Addressing nootropics, Adam and Aiden express surprise that Carlsen doesn't incorporate these supplements into his regimen, contrasting it with Joe Rogan's enthusiasm for them.

• Adam Thorne [22:45]: "But I was kind of surprised to hear that Magnus doesn't really have a regiment for that."

They ponder the role of supplements in enhancing cognitive performance and why Carlsen might prefer natural methods like adequate sleep and intuition over chemical enhancers.

• Aiden [25:13]: "He just try to sleep good. It's like, dude, I don't. That. No, it's not enough."

Conclusion

Adam and Aiden conclude the episode by expressing their admiration for Magnus Carlsen's exceptional talent and his balanced approach to chess. They look forward to future episodes and developments, including a forthcoming Netflix documentary on Carlsen and potential further discussions on cheating controversies.

• Adam Thorne [32:50]: "What a bizarre thing we've created now with your host... It might either be the worst podcast or the best one of all time. One go. Enjoy the show."

• Aiden [33:34]: "It's also good publicity for the game of chess... Maybe they've heard of Magnus. Right. He's that big."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Adam Thorne [00:20]: "Magnus Carlsen... is basically a computer. Yeah, basically a human computer."

• Aiden [05:34]: "He thought he had the ability to."

• Aiden [18:00]: "Mixed with deep neural networks, too, dude."

• Adam Thorne [19:55]: "We could have a new game because there's like billions of moves."

• Aiden [25:13]: "He just try to sleep good."

• Adam Thorne [32:50]: "It might either be the worst podcast or the best one of all time."

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This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review offers an insightful examination of Magnus Carlsen's chess mastery, the ethical dilemmas in competitive chess, and the evolving relationship between humans and artificial intelligence in the realm of strategic games. Whether you're a chess enthusiast or simply curious about the intersections of intelligence, technology, and competition, this episode provides a comprehensive overview of the current state and future of chess.

Transcript

[Adam Thorne]

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you, perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's walking Dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created now with your host, Adam Thorne. This might either be the worst podcast or the best one of all time. One go. Enjoy the show. Hey, guys. Welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review. This week, I'm joined by Aiden. How you doing, buddy?

[Aiden]

Good, how are you? Thanks for having me.

[Adam Thorne]

Chess nerd, question mark.

[Aiden]

Chess nerd, question mark.

[Adam Thorne]

Love it. I like to throw myself in that category, except I'm not good enough to call myself a chess nerd. I just like chess a lot. I'm not good enough at it, though.

[Aiden]

Yeah, I would agree.

[Adam Thorne]

It's too difficult, dude.

[Aiden]

Oh, no, no. There's so many different variables that you can have to take into account, and it gets way too complex.

[Adam Thorne]

But. But it's so fun to watch and just, like, fantasize that you could be that good.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

It's like, how do their brains work?

[Aiden]

I couldn't tell you. It gets the highest levels of. It is just incomprehensible sometimes.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. And Magnus Carlsen, who Rogan talked to recently, is the highest level of it. I mean, yet greatest chess player of all time, Right? Highest ranked ever.

[Aiden]

Yeah, Ever.

[Adam Thorne]

What is his score?

[Aiden]

28, 2800. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Bananas.

[Aiden]

Yeah. I don't even know how you get to that level.

[Adam Thorne]

It's basically a computer. Yeah, basically a human computer.

[Aiden]

He's the only one has a chance at some of these AI systems that they're creating for chess.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. But still no chance.

[Aiden]

Yeah, no chance.

[Adam Thorne]

Still no chance. Interesting that Tony Hinchcliffe was on the pod. I mean, I know he likes to come in when there's dumb WWE wrestlers. He's a big fan of that. He pops in every now and again, you know, when he wants the fanboy out. But I would have never guessed.

[Aiden]

Oh, me neither.

[Adam Thorne]

That he would come in for Magnus and he was really, like, in awe.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

But you could tell he was a big fan of.

[Aiden]

Oh, yeah. He was just quiet and just truly listening to everything he said.

[Adam Thorne]

All right. I felt like Magnus was. He. He's pretty humble in a lot of ways. Like, he. He's in front of Rogan, which is like a big show, you know? I guess that could be seen as a lot of pressure and maybe it is for a lot of people. He seemed very chill, though. Very relaxed. Very much how I've always seen him present himself. I wonder if that's part of his skills, his superpower to playing chess. Well, staying level.

[Aiden]

Oh, you have to be the pressure that you face on the world stage like that. You have to remain calm. Especially with a game that's so focused on analytics, strategy, and all of that.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. God, imagine that stress, don't they? I think I heard this once. You like burn. Those guys burn like 10,000 calories or like something. And I'm like, from what? Just thinking.

[Aiden]

Just the brain power.

[Adam Thorne]

Either that or they're so tense that it's just like these just contraction exercises they're doing the whole time, but they can sit there and play a game for like eight hours.

[Aiden]

Eight hours, right. Like, it's got to take a toll on your brain after a while.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, I, I'm in aw of it. And this is, this is why I was so pumped to have Rogan talk to him, because I know Rogan doesn't play chess, but he's always fascinated by people that are the best at what they do and he wants to kind of figure out how it happens. And I. And I think that he was asking a lot of the right questions to get there. I just don't know if Magnus knew.

[Aiden]

No, he didn't seem like he was well aware. He just goes about and does his own thing, whatever his intuition tells him.

[Adam Thorne]

It almost seems like he's not all that impressed with his own ability. Yeah, he's just like, yeah, I do this and then I prep like that and I watch these things and I have a good memory. It was just hard to kind of piece together, like, how is this genius being created?

[Aiden]

Yeah, he's very humble to even recognizing his own ability.

[Adam Thorne]

What did you think of the controversy? The big story.

[Aiden]

So that one is a difficult one because there was the instances with Neiman cheating in the past on Chess.com to play those higher rated players because he thought he had the ability to. And you look at what Magnus was saying, even when he gets to those classical on the board games, he doesn't perform as well as he normally would if he was playing online. So that definitely does spark some controversy if there, if he was still cheating in those instances. But Carlsen also did mention that Nieman has gotten significantly better since then. So I think that there definitely was a time that Niemann was cheating. And you know, the. I Forget what the chessboard is called Fide. They still say that the game that Neiman played against Carlson was legit and that he didn't cheat. But there is still some evidence to kind of suggest that, you know, he did cheat in the past, so what's to stop him from doing it now?

[Adam Thorne]

It's a good point. Did he beat Carlson that time?

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Ooh.

[Aiden]

Yeah. So that's why it's kind of like maybe Carlsen was just a little bit upset that he got beat, because that does take a toll on your elo, and especially with someone that young. Just doesn't make sense. But another point that Carlson brought up in the podcast is that he had these anonymous accounts that he would play on chess.com so people wouldn't recognize him. And he went and talked to some Russian grandmaster, and just because of Carlson's playstyle, he was able to figure out that these anonymous accounts were Magnus Carlsen. So these people who are at the top of their game, who truly understand each individual facet and component that it takes for to play chess at the highest level, he's able to recognize that. So maybe he is able to see how Neiman was making some of these moves that just baffle these grandmasters and point to the fact that he could be cheating.

[Adam Thorne]

Holy shit. So this Russian guy figured out Carlsen's games. He was like, that's that guy?

[Aiden]

Yeah, just from his playstyle.

[Adam Thorne]

And then, because Carlsen did point to that, which I found quite interesting, I'd never really thought about it. It's like, you know, somebody plays in a particular style, and then if they throw a curveball, it just doesn't make sense.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

It's like you're either being kind of aggressive or defensive, or you just have this flow, and then there's this move out of nowhere that is a good move. It's positive, but it doesn't fit the rest of the game. I've always looked at each move as, like, a singular thing, but I guess it doesn't make sense that it would be right. You're always doing something right, and there.

[Aiden]

Can just be, like, one move that's like, just even a tiny mistake of moving the wrong piece, or it's not like a complete blunder, but it does allow an opportunity for a chink in your armor to be exposed. And he talks about that in there, that he alludes to the fact that he could also cheat at this game and be the best that he could possibly be if he just knew, like, that one of these critical moments happened. And Figuring out what the best move is in that situation and capitalizing on that is. It's just those tiny slip ups that can make the entire game.

[Adam Thorne]

Yep. Because it would make sense. Right. That, you know, a lot of times you know where to go.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

And then other times you're like, all right, this is really comp. There's a lot going on in this corner. What do I do? Yeah. I mean, I can't tell you how. Basically what happens to my brain when I get there is. I just guess, and it's almost always terrible.

[Aiden]

Oh, yeah, No, I agree. Just like intuition at that point.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. It gets bad because when you're not that good at chess, I mean, I get to a point where, like, even thinking for it too long is going to make the move worse. So I just kind of speed it up.

[Aiden]

I agree. I think it's like kind of just having that parasimony. Doing the simplest thing is the best option at that point.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of the anal beads or. I thought it was a butt plug. Yeah, originally. But they were saying anal beads a lot on the podcast. But whatever it was, it's like, I wonder, you know, I know that Magnus said it came from Reddit and, you know, it was just. But I mean, that was the story.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

That was what the news picked up.

[Aiden]

Yeah. I mean, it definitely has some shock value to it, but, like, with clickbait. The clickbait, of course. But with the checks that they do before the games, it doesn't. You know, it's kind of hard to put that out of a theory that could be reasonable because they're not going to be checking, you know, checking people's assets for anal beads.

[Adam Thorne]

I would hope not.

[Aiden]

Yeah. Right.

[Adam Thorne]

I want to think that we live in a world where chess tournaments don't require the tsa.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

You know what I mean?

[Aiden]

You would hope, but at this point in time, I guess not.

[Adam Thorne]

They're just scanning them in.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

That's so wild, though. And now they're doing this Netflix documentary.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

It didn't sound like Magnus was, like, super stoked on it.

[Aiden]

No, I don't think so. From what I was reading about the documentary, it does get back into that controversy again. But it seems like they're more just getting the perspective of the other grandmasters. At the time, they didn't really publicly share that they thought Nieman was cheating, but now they're actually stepping forward, showing their faces, sharing their voices to say, like, yeah, this is what we think's going on. So it's not anything like new building to the case, but it is just getting those people in the limelight.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, I sent you the article earlier.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

That he has now reached out to Rogan or tried to, and he wants to come on and. And tell his story.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Kind of not necessarily rebuttal what Magnus said, but just kind of defend his position.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

I'm curious to see if Rogan's interested in that. I mean, he's, you know, he's not a huge. It's not like this is a chess podcast, so otherwise it would happen.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

But I don't know, I think there could be some interest there.

[Aiden]

Oh, I 100% agree. I think Rogan is more of a person who wants to get the whole story to hear both sides and, you know, come to a consensus of what the truth is. And having Neiman's perspective would be. Would be great to hear, especially on a platform like his that reaches a massive audience.

[Adam Thorne]

Right. And then, you know, just another chance to talk about butt plugs.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And anal beads. Hilarious.

[Aiden]

Oh, for sure, hilarious.

[Adam Thorne]

I feel like, you know, I don't know, it's like I don't know how to cheat like that, but I feel like there would be easier ways. Oh, couldn't you just put a thing in your shoe that vibrates? You know what I mean?

[Aiden]

Yeah. There's got to be some go that route.

[Adam Thorne]

There's got to be some different. Different things. But at the same time, there's a lot of pressure for these top guys. And, you know, when it comes to Magnus, I mean, with these AI systems in place, the types of computers that can win, it doesn't take a lot. If an individual just has a little bit of access and one of those machines, they're going to be able to beat him every time.

[Aiden]

Oh, easily.

[Adam Thorne]

And this is his whole world.

[Aiden]

Yeah, he's worked very hard to get to that level. And like a big thing with the ELO ratings, like in open tournaments, for example, you know, if you lose two games but win the entire tournament, you're ELO still goes down. And it's a. It's a big deal for, you know, people like Magnus Carlsen, who has a 2800 rating. Even just losing those two games can mean a world of difference. And to have someone who cheats to mess you up like that can. That would piss me off too.

[Adam Thorne]

Wasn't he, like. There was a lot of talk about if he could get to 2900?

[Aiden]

Yeah, I believe so. It's just, once again, just get building your ELO up like that you. You can't win or you can't lose. If you lose one game, then you're automatically pretty much getting set back, no matter how many games you win.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. I heard him say not that long ago that he just doesn't think he can get there. He was just like. I think he. If I remember rightly, he was saying that at one point. He thinks he could have, but it's, like, passed for some reason. And I don't know what he's really saying that other than, you know, he's kind of moved away from the world championship games and certain types of. I know he just did this blitz one recently. He's kind of going into some different areas. You know, there's some bureaucracy, I think, happening and some politics throughout the chess world that he's kind of tired of. They kicked him out of one tournament because he wore jeans. And it's like, come on now. Yeah, jeans.

[Aiden]

Should it be the end of the world? But, I mean, like, what he says in the podcast, he. He doesn't like thinking of it like a job. He likes to keep it as a hobby, that he wants to stay motivated from himself. And, you know, when you focus solely on getting to that rating, it just. I feel like he would definitely get burnt out and not really enjoy it as much.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, it's always a good move to keep what you do as a hobby you enjoy. Oh, for sure. I mean, not for everyone. Some people are driven. I'm sure a lot of the Russian players saw it as their job, their duty, their patriotic, you know, obligation, and it was everything to them, and that's how they rocketed to the top. But, yeah, that doesn't seem like Magnus's style. No, he wants to keep it chill and. And play with. With some of the, like, specialty things that he's done. Like, for example, blindfolded playing against, what was it, 12 people?

[Aiden]

People, yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

What do you make of that type of thing? Like, being someone that plays chess, enjoys it. How far away from the realm? Like, if you'd never heard of this being possible, like, no one ever even doing one game that way, and then you hear someone do 12, it's like, what do you even think?

[Aiden]

I can't even comprehend that. Like, even when I'm just looking at my. The game on my phone or just having a board in front of me when if I were to close my eyes and try to figure out where the chess pieces are at, I wouldn't even be able to do it just looking at the board. But to do it with 12 different games simultaneously, keeping track of each board position and what. What your opponent just did. Your mind is. I can't. I can't even fully comprehend that.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, he checks mates, everyone, every single one. And they're like. They're like guys from Cambridge or something.

[Aiden]

Yeah. They're not just bad, they're just players. Yeah. Honestly, like, it just shows his level of expertise, and I think it also highlights just the way his brain works is. It's not just normal. They do get into the podcast about epigenetics of what makes these people the best at their game, and I think having that memory is just probably one of his most important assets. He still says that he'll be at a position on the board with an opponent and recognize it from games decades ago, and he will know exactly what line to play. I think that's just like, it's got to be one of your best weapons in your arsenal.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. He said, you know, a lot of these guys do this, but Magnus used to do this where you would just read books. Like, old chess books weren't really instructional guides. They were literally just all the games.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

So you would just look through Grandmaster games, and there was just this period of time where people would memorize the entire game.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

So I guess it's that. Right. You just get to a point where you're like, oh, that looks like this. Yeah, that's this pattern. I just follow this now. And what I don't get about that, though, is why the other person will do different things.

[Aiden]

Probably that is a hard part to truly figure out. I think there's. I know Carlson likes to go to some of those older positions and just try different moves just for the. To spice things up, because, you know, you can do these textbook openings as much as you want that, you know, are going to be effective and get you to certain end points. But, you know, like, from what he says, it. It's just boring. It did. It brings the soul out of the chess. And to find those different creative solutions to see if there is a different angle or a stronger opportunity to take is. I think that just keeps the game more enjoyable for him.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Well, it sounds. It sounds like he's getting inspired, you know, or has been for a while with the, like, the new up and comers and their new strategy.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

To, like, how they're going about it. He seems very impressed, and I don't want to say intimidated, but he can see that there's some people coming up that are gonna be at a. Beat him oh, for sure.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

With the way that they're working.

[Aiden]

What do you think about the new strategies that these kids are taking with chess now, whether it's with AI or chess theory even?

[Adam Thorne]

Well, it sounded. It sounded fascinating to me, and it makes total sense. I mean, he talked about the one young kid that would be multitasking. He'd be playing one game, answering questions, totally on it, doing something else where he's, like, betting or gambling or something like that. It was all of it kind of happening at once. I mean, that's total obsession.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And if you want to be the best at something as difficult as chess, it's probably the only way.

[Aiden]

Yeah. You have to be relentless at that level.

[Adam Thorne]

And I think it inspires Magnus, because I don't want to say this came easy to. He's obviously put a lot of work in, but, I mean, you know, he. He drew with Gary Kasparov when he was 13. I mean, he's been. It. Let's say it came pretty easy to him. And now he's watching these people. What was it? He was buying time on the cloud or something? It was like, access to a computer that would run really tough. Like, what are they using supercomputers to play chess with?

[Aiden]

Yeah. Mixed with deep neural networks, too, dude. Yeah. And a lot of the theories that people are like, he brought this up back in. I think it was 2020, when AlphaZero came out, which was one of the greatest chess engines at the time that added those deep neural networks. And he was able to learn from the tactics that these chess engines used to think hundreds of moves ahead before even making a move, that he completely changed his strategy. And just by learning how those computers worked, he was able to have an upper hand on a lot of his opponents.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, shit.

[Aiden]

Yeah. And now all of these kids who are growing up, they play a lot of these engines, whether it's on your phone or actually sitting down with, like, a professional one on your computer. And you learn to be more informed from those programs that, I mean, sure, you may not have been able to comprehend what they were thinking those computers were thinking. Cause they're thinking hundreds of moves ahead. And us humans, just, we can truly keep up with that, but having that knowledge now, and we can understand why it works, but I think that's going to inform a lot of these newcomers games, and it's going to pretty much revolutionize the way that we play chess.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. And to be fair, I mean, the human brain is a. Is a pretty spectacular, like, rarely understood, you know, organ and even though we can't think the, you know, hundred moves ahead, like that timeline is like, you know, maybe they're like, I'm about six moves. But often there's other stuff going on that we don't even know about. So if they're watching these engines play and picking up these different patterns, maybe there's something the brain does that's like, all right, I'm just going to kind of skip through, you know, multiply the. The game, you know, piece moving by 10. And then it's just like, ah, I see what is kind of unfolding here.

[Aiden]

Yeah, we kind of pick up on their patterns too. And it helps us to be more informed about our own game and kind of pick up the computer aspects, too.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, you know, what's interesting about that is I think we, you know, we've got like the Tesla, what is it called? The Optimus robot that they want to release.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

We got a bunch of these robots that are gonna start showing up places. Right. It may not be in households right away, but someone's gonna buy those things as soon as they're released, and they're gonna be popping up all over the place. You assume that they're gonna know chess because they probably have chatgpt brains. And to be at it, I think sit down with like a humanoid thing, and of all the things to play, it feels like chess would be the most natural.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Be kind of weird to play Monopoly with her.

[Aiden]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

You know, your house robot. But like, to sit there and play chess and have it teach you within it. Complain any style. It. You could literally say to it, like, be 5% better than me.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

So that you don't feel like an asshole. Like, you feel like you had a chance.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

But you get a little better every time. And then it gives you some coaching afterwards. Dude, I'd be all about that.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

That. In fact, that's the, like, the main thing. I've been thinking about why I want to get one of those robots. And they could do loads of stuff like your laundry or whatever. I don't care. Forget my laundry. I'd like to sit down and be like, can you tell me while I'm. Why I'm still shit at chess? I need to get better at this game. It could figure it out. Oh, yeah, I believe it.

[Aiden]

Yeah. I mean, the best teacher.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. You go through. I mean, you. You can do it probably now with chat GPT, but yeah, it's. It's too boring. I'm not moving the other side. And then reading Exactly.

[Aiden]

With a robot, you could actually just have them talk to you in person. Feels like actual coach or something. I never would have thought about it like that. That's a. I would be happy if the robots were used like that, dude.

[Adam Thorne]

I'm pumped for it.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. They're probably just going to be used to kill us.

[Aiden]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Adam Thorne]

Sadly, we don't get to enjoy those type of things. Were you surprised to hear? And, you know, Rogan is always banging on about Nootropics. He loves them. You know, we're banging some Zins right now. Nootropics.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

But I was kind of surprised to hear that Magnus doesn't really have a regiment for that.

[Aiden]

Yeah, me, too. I mean, like, Rogan was saying, like, why not try to take these supplements? That could just elevate your game just ever so slightly, if you truly want to be the best of. The best of your field. But I also kind of feel like Rogan was kind of pushing to promote his own little brand.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, he was a. But, yeah, he was. I was surprised he didn't bring it up, honestly. I think. I think that he's that into it and he probably had to stop himself because he knows how shitty that would sound.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And he was probably like, fuck, I did it again. But at the same time, it's like, you know, you're the. Like, it's hard to deny that Magnus is not a genius.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

Like, for all the ways that we throw that word around, it's like we give it to, I don't know, Stephen Hawkins. Right. That's reasonable. I don't know who else gets to be called geniuses, but, like, people that really stand out like that. He has to be that.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Because this isn't exactly a physical sport. This is all coming from the brain. He's that good. And then you. You would think, well, you know, if you're Cristiano Ronaldo, you're taking all the supplements, Right. Creatine, you're on it all and you're running all day. You. You peeking. So what is he doing? Yeah, he's just like, oh, I just try to sleep good.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

It's like, dude, I don't. That. No, it's not enough.

[Aiden]

No. Like, he could be doing so much, but I do find it kind of fascinating that he just kind of goes about his intuition about what's best for him. Like how he said that there was the one game that he showed up late, just wearing sweatpants, where in the morning, he just felt like he needed to go outside. And he just went to go ski. And I honestly really admire that. I mean, sure, like, you could be elevating yourself with all these different supplements and training regimes, but that he just trusts himself and his brain to know, like, what's best for him in that moment.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

I think that's fascinating because.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, you're right, because it takes away some of the beauty of his experience. And his experience is he's not here just for our entertainment.

[Aiden]

Right, Right.

[Adam Thorne]

I'm sure a lot of people at the top of their game feel that they are.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And they have to perform, you know, like a LeBron James. It's like, I'm here for the. For the fans or for the, you know, the winning. And he wants to win. Of course he wants that. But he also wants it to be this fun hobby.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And probably why he's taking a step back now. Not just that he's done it all and he's getting a bit older, but maybe he doesn't find it as fun anym.

[Aiden]

Yeah, I admire that. I mean, I think that's still why he is able to perform at the top of his game. Like, even just when it comes to learning. Like, when the new AI models came out, he was able to get excited about that, and it wasn't the same game that he knew anymore. And, you know, I think that does a lot for intrinsic motivation, and I'm happy that he actually pursues that and stays true to it.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. He was saying that they obviously play different. What was that? One engine that he said isn't even that good, but they still keep it around because it does some weird shit.

[Aiden]

I think it's Layla.

[Adam Thorne]

Okay.

[Aiden]

Like, it'll make some, like, fundamental blunders or some very elementary blunders to begin. But then in later games, it could just make a move that's just like. It doesn't make sense to any humans. But then it completely settles the game.

[Adam Thorne]

Now, did they explain how that works? Like, why it does that?

[Aiden]

I don't think so, because I never.

[Adam Thorne]

Heard of this before, but it's kind of interesting. Like, what I was thinking when I heard that is, like, okay, so could you take this program? It has to be a program. Right, Right. And then pump. Plug it into some sort of AI and be like, all right, do this. But now have all the power that it doesn't have. Because he was saying it's not a very powerful engine.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Or something.

[Aiden]

Yeah. So there's, like, the distinction between, like, the. The deep neural networks and the actual, like, supercomputers. That, like. I forget what the model was that he brought up. That was like the size of a. You know, it was a computer the size of a building. And now we're working with deep neural networks that are just, like, on a little hard drive. So if you combine those two powers, maybe it can do more of those complex calculations. But. Yeah, another point to that, of why it makes those elementary errors, is maybe it's sort of like this paralysis by analysis. What he also brought up that it's thinking far too ahead, and it doesn't realize the simpler moves, so.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Aiden]

But I also don't understand these AI systems well enough to truly understand how they.

[Adam Thorne]

But it's nice to just take a guess.

[Aiden]

Yeah, exactly. Right, right.

[Adam Thorne]

I mean, I guess that's kind of in the same line as when he said that he was playing. Was it in New York, like those chess guys in the park?

[Aiden]

Yeah, he's playing.

[Adam Thorne]

I think it was there that he said, so this older guy, obviously been playing in the park forever, and he plays so many games. Maybe didn't get the backstory reasonable, but he said he had a really strange opening, that it just. It doesn't make any sense.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

To him. And he. He thought he'd seen it all, and it kind of led him into, like, a nasty trap, and this person just developed it himself. And what I liked about that is not to take anything away from this individual, but he's obviously not a grandmaster or someone that's ranked, you know, globally. However, he's still very good at chess, and he's come up with this, like, bizarre, unusual trap. Probably works very well for him. And you start thinking about that in terms of these strange programs, you know, and these AI neural networks that can just kind of weave this game in a new way. I wonder how far this can evolve. Is it just one of those games where it's like, it's been around forever here, all the openings here, all the closings. Don't fuck anything up, and then you'll be world champion, because that's how the computers work. Or is there, like, this whole new game because there's, like, billions of moves, right? Potential.

[Aiden]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Immediately, it's like, exponential on top of each other.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

So could there be this, like, wild variation that we've never seen?

[Aiden]

Oh, probably. It's. It's this question of whether these computers can, you know, quote, solve chess.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Aiden]

Find all these different possibilities and find the right moves to always play. And, you know, we see certain openings that people have played where, you know, you can go like, 50 moves in and be at this, like, the theoretical best point of the game. And it'll always end in a. In a draw. But I would be curious to see how these computers, these AI models, could completely change the game and how we think of it, or if it truly is just something that's so statistically sound that we always have to play the best moves. I think that's the problem with those AI models is that they're always making the best decisions possible. I think that the errors that humans make is what keeps the game fun. Doing the moves that are not always the best introduces different lines and different opportunities for people to be creative and capitalize on it, versus always thinking hundreds of moves ahead and always making the best possible move.

[Adam Thorne]

It would be interesting. Like, obviously you're calculating the best move because it's the best move in a series of moves that thinks so many moves ahead.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

But also it's kind of interesting to think, oh, not a blunder, but like a weird move.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Just kind of sets this chain reaction in place that ultimately becomes a strength.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

It's like that kind of variation. I don't know if that's real. And why I say that is because I don't know how they calculate the best move. Maybe it just is. Maybe it's the best move, best move, and the smartest computer gets there. I heard for a while that they were putting the engines against each other and everything was just becoming draws.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Because they could anticipate, which to me, at that time, kind of suggested that, oh, they'd both solve chess. Because if you just play your best game against the best thing, it makes sense that no one wins.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

Everything's a draw. It's kind of like the game's done. We need a more complicated game, but who knows?

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Who knows? Maybe. Maybe there's just a new, you know, let's get quantum computers in.

[Aiden]

Oh, my gosh. Like, that's like, next level.

[Adam Thorne]

We need some, like, 4D chess for that. We need to invent a new. A new one that worked this way up. Look, I really enjoyed this episode. I thought Magnus, you know, he's very similar to how he is in. In any time you hear him talk. And I really found that kind of refreshing. And also, I think Joe and Tony kind of fanboyed out a little bit. There's. There's something just magnificent about somebody that's really. Even if you don't appreciate chess, everyone knows how fucking hard that is.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

And when you hear that this person is just the best. It's like, that must be special.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Very, very cool. Very cool. I hope he comes on again. I really want to see the Netflix documentary coming out. Yeah. It's going to be a bit click baity, I think, but it's going to be exciting and I'd be interested. What was the other guy's name? The anal beads. Yeah, yeah, I'd be interested for him to come on. I'm kind of hoping Rogan does. If he does, he needs to get it on pretty soon.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Because you know, it's got to make sense for the time. But yeah, I'd like to hear his case and I don't know, I feel like if he's a cheater Rogan to get out of him.

[Aiden]

Oh, yeah. I would hope so at least. And you know, it's also good publicity for the game of chess too. I mean, it was in the past and you know, with Rogan's audience, I hope it just gets more people to enjoying and loving the game.

[Adam Thorne]

No, 100%. I mean, to be fair. Yeah. That anal beads story really picked up that there was no one that didn't know about that. And no one even knows who wins the the world or even gives a shit.

[Aiden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

Like maybe they've heard of Magnus. Right. He's that big.

[Aiden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

But I can't tell you five top chess players. I should. I wonder if I could. No. Yeah. I can't do it. It's embarrassing.

[Aiden]

I wish, like the content creator ones. But yeah, yeah, it's that shock value that really stands out.

[Adam Thorne]

Awesome. Well, thank you, Hagen and thank you everyone for listening. We appreciate you guys and gals and we will talk to you next week.