439 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Douglas Murray and Dave Smith

Summary

Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast - Episode 439: Review of Douglas Murray and Dave Smith

Release Date: April 18, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 439 of the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast, hosts Adam Thorne and Pizza delve into the latest Joe Rogan Experience (JRE) episode featuring Douglas Murray and Dave Smith. This detailed analysis explores the dynamic between Murray and Smith, the key themes discussed, and the broader implications of their debate. The hosts provide insightful commentary, breaking down complex arguments and offering their perspectives on the effectiveness and impact of the conversation.

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Background of Douglas Murray and Dave Smith

The episode centers around a contentious discussion between Douglas Murray, a renowned author and commentator, and Dave Smith, a prominent podcaster and independent researcher. Pizza remarks on Murray's extensive reach and authority in debating, noting, “He seems to be the go-to guy for people our age and a little younger and a little older” (02:22). Douglas Murray emphasizes his engagement with diverse audiences, while Dave Smith represents the growing voice of independent commentators challenging traditional expert opinions.

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Key Topics Discussed

1. The Role of Experts vs. Independent Voices

A significant portion of the debate revolves around the validity and reliability of expert opinions compared to those of independent podcasters. Pizza expresses respect for Murray's ability to articulate and defend his points effectively, stating, “I always respect how he breaks down the argument... he can hold court” (02:32). However, Pizza also voices a contrasting view on Dave Smith and Joe Rogan, suggesting that while independent voices can sometimes confuse the public, they also empower individuals to form their own opinions: “It's up to the individual to kind of work through this” (03:00).

Douglas Murray counters by highlighting the dangers of misinformation, arguing that popularity does not equate to credibility: “It's dangerous because it can confuse people... you might drive people in a direction that's been debunked” (04:56). Pizza acknowledges the complexities, noting that while experts provide valuable insights, independent voices like Smith’s offer alternative perspectives that encourage critical thinking.

2. Ethical Considerations in Warfare

The debate also touches on the ethics of military actions, with specific references to conflicts involving Israel, Gaza, and NATO. Pizza discusses the moral dilemmas faced by leaders during war, using Douglas Murray’s example: “If you're put in the position of having to make the decision of when to attack at what time to save your whole country...” (15:06). Douglas Murray elaborates on the concept of Realpolitik, explaining the harsh realities leaders must navigate: “The only way to win war is to be real politique... you have to bomb Dresden” (14:24).

Both hosts highlight the tragic consequences of war, emphasizing the loss of innocent lives and the ethical burdens carried by decision-makers. Pizza states, “We never seem to get the whole truth from the news or from the government... a lot of innocent civilians die” (29:18), underscoring the human cost of geopolitical conflicts.

3. The Influence of Media and Public Perception

Murray and Smith's discussion also addresses how media portrayal shapes public perception. Douglas Murray critiques the selective transparency of Western governments versus more opaque regimes like Russia and North Korea: “We wear our flaws on our sleeve... they hide all that stuff” (23:12). Pizza concurs, reflecting on the effectiveness and ethical implications of foreign aid in conflict zones: “Billions and billions of dollars... didn't improve the life of the regular Palestinian people” (30:20).

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Analysis of Debate Style

Adam Thorne and Pizza commend Douglas Murray for his composure and strategic debate techniques. Pizza remarks on Murray’s ability to maintain his stance without escalating tensions: “He handles that shit so well. He's so composed. He's brave” (24:09). They contrast this with Dave Smith’s approach, suggesting that while Smith presents compelling facts, his style is different and more confrontational at times.

Douglas Murray himself reflects on his debating style, noting the importance of credibility gained from personal experience: “The thing about archaeology is the... the only story there is... if you don't go see it, look at it” (37:12). This emphasis on firsthand knowledge underscores Murray’s argument for the necessity of informed discourse.

The hosts also draw parallels to political debates, referencing figures like Donald Trump to illustrate how debate tactics can sometimes overshadow factual accuracy: “Look, everyone knows you're a nerd. Yeah, everyone knows...” (38:45). This comparison serves to highlight the delicate balance between persuasive rhetoric and substantive argumentation.

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Hosts' Perspectives

Throughout the episode, Adam Thorne and Pizza offer balanced viewpoints, appreciating the strengths and acknowledging the limitations of both Murray and Smith. Pizza admits, “I like them equally... nobody got checkmated” (25:16), suggesting that both debaters provided valuable insights without one overwhelmingly outshining the other.

Adam Thorne concurs, emphasizing the importance of such debates in fostering informed discussions among listeners: “This was an important and powerful podcast” (46:00). They conclude that while the debate was intense, it remained respectful and constructive, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the issues at hand.

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Notable Quotes

• Pizza: “He seems to be the go-to guy for people our age and a little younger and a little older” (02:22).
• Douglas Murray: “It's dangerous because it can confuse people... you might drive people in a direction that's been debunked” (04:56).
• Pizza: “If you're put in the position of having to make the decision of when to attack at what time to save your whole country...” (15:06).
• Douglas Murray: “We wear our flaws on our sleeve... they hide all that stuff” (23:12).
• Pizza: “We never seem to get the whole truth from the news or from the government... a lot of innocent civilians die” (29:18).
• Pizza: “I like them equally... nobody got checkmated” (25:16).
• Adam Thorne: “This was an important and powerful podcast” (46:00).

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Conclusion

Episode 439 of the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast provides a comprehensive and engaging analysis of the debate between Douglas Murray and Dave Smith on JRE. Through thoughtful discussion and critical evaluation, Adam Thorne and Pizza shed light on the complexities of balancing expert opinions with independent voices, the ethical dilemmas in warfare, and the influence of media on public perception. The episode underscores the importance of respectful and informed debates in shaping meaningful conversations and fostering a deeper understanding among audiences.

For Rogan fans and those interested in nuanced discussions on contemporary issues, this episode offers valuable insights and a balanced perspective on two influential voices in today’s discourse.

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Timestamp references correspond to the provided transcript segments for precise quote locations.

Transcript

[Adam Thorne]

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[Pizza]

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[Pizza]

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you. Perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's walking Dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing.

[Adam Thorne]

We've created this now with your host, Adam Thorne.

[Douglas Murray]

This might either be the worst podcast.

[Pizza]

Or the best one. One Go. Enjoy the show. Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to another episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review. Today I'm joined by Pizza. What's cracking?

[Douglas Murray]

Oh, not too much. Good day to you.

[Pizza]

Good day to you, sir. And we are doing the Douglas Murray and Dave Smith episode, which I got a lot of emails about, a lot of texts about. People were excited for this. I think maybe they were surprised by this. Even people that I know that I had no idea was aware of who Douglas Murray was. I was kind of impressed. Well, it really speaks to his reach and authority in this area of debate.

[Douglas Murray]

Yeah, he's. He seems to be the go to guy for. For. He seems to be the go to guy for. For people our age and a little younger and a little older.

[Pizza]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, disclaimer from me. I have a lot of respect for Douglas that I agree on many of his points. Often, even when I. I'm unsure or possibly don't, I always respect how he breaks down the argument, you know, and in terms of debate, I love how he can hold court. He can get his point across, but he often will take a step back, kind of lower his cadence and bring the energy to a different place. So it's like, almost less likely to stay as elevated and argumentative. He does a really good job of that. And in addition, I've got a lot of respect for Dave Smith, and I. You know, the one thing that Douglas was saying through this podcast that I honestly don't fully agree with, though I see where he's coming from, is that podcasters or just people that are like, quote, unquote, doing their own research have a valid voice. It's like, yeah, I get it. Generally. And through time, we have taken a step back to the expert class, the professional class, those with the scholarly reviews and so forth, when it comes to being historians or scientists or whatever. Right. It's like there's a reason. Well, there's a reason the experts exist and they're respected and listened to because they've put the work in. But I think other people have a voice. And I think where Douglas is coming from is he's like, it's dangerous because it can confuse people. And just because you're popular and you have an opinion doesn't mean you should be listened to, because you might drive people in a direction that's been debunked. Whereas I think where Dave Smith and Rogan are coming from is it's like, hey, it's up to the individual to kind of work through this. And there could be mistakes.

[Douglas Murray]

Dave says a lot of stuff like, who are you going to believe, the experts or your lying eyes? Like, we can see this sort of stuff. We can. We could. We could definitely form an opinion about the information that's out there. And the information is out there. The atrocities occur. Dave doesn't like that going down, and he says as much.

[Pizza]

Yeah. And I think it leans into that whole idea that, you know, people can't be trusted to make good decisions, so they just have to wait for the smartest people to tell them. And that takes a lot of power and ownership away from regular folks. It's like they can make their own decisions, too.

[Douglas Murray]

And guess what? We've been lied to by the experts before. They're not always right.

[Pizza]

Well, Dave brought that up. He brought that up as an example about COVID And I think that that was a tough one for Douglas to defend because he also was kind of on the side of speaking out about it and also not an expert in that area yet. They were, they were pretty correct on their assertions. I mean, it came from a lab, folks.

[Douglas Murray]

Racist bigot, right?

[Pizza]

How dare I? How dare I? It's like if there was a marshmallow factory and then all of a sudden there's just this weird marshmallow monster attack and they're like, it came from. Came from the fairground across the river. You'd be like the Boy Scouts.

[Douglas Murray]

Let their s'mores get out of the hand, we think. Or was it. Or was it the weapons grade marshmallow man?

[Pizza]

There we go. That might be the most ridiculous example I've ever come up with, but I like it. You know, Douglas did come out on the defensive early on. I think he knew that they were going to be kind of teaming up Dave and Joe. And it's kind of hard to sit neutral in a debate when, you know, there's like a type of 2v1. But even before we get into breaking down their points and moving through, I would say as debates go, even potentially contentious ones where people have strong opinions, this is a much better example of how a debate should be. So I do give credit to both of them for that. And, you know, I don't think they.

[Douglas Murray]

Left each other off.

[Pizza]

Yeah, I don't think they left hating each other. You know, maybe there's an arm wrestling.

[Douglas Murray]

That future, but now they, they might do headbutt contest or something. Those guys are not the kind to get in to get into it physically.

[Pizza]

No, of course not.

[Douglas Murray]

Too big of a brain.

[Pizza]

That's it. Yeah, he did, he did kind of come in. Douglas did. Trying to minimize the credibility of some of the opponents of the opinions that he has, which I don't know is probably a good tactic for debate. But it's, I guess if you want to make a debate really short, that's a good way of doing it.

[Douglas Murray]

Right.

[Pizza]

But you know, he nip.

[Douglas Murray]

He nitpicked Joe's guests.

[Pizza]

Yep.

[Douglas Murray]

Right off the bat. Right off the bat. He was, he was saying, maybe you should have some more on this side, less on this side. But it's, you know, it's his show. So I mean, that's a moot point.

[Pizza]

But also Joe's show is very popular and Douglas is saying, yeah, but now you have people that are less informed following this because so many people listened. And I think Joe is always trying to point to the fact that, hey, well, they get to make their minds up. And is the end result this ignorant racist something, something that comes out of it that otherwise wouldn't have been. No, I don't think so either because there's other elements to that. Like it's one thing to be a conspiracy theorist, but to be pulled down a road of hate requires your own hatred, which you had before you listen to any fucking podcast.

[Douglas Murray]

Yeah, the bias was existing already. And, and if you just read any of Douglass's works, he examines everything he can get his hands on. And I'm, I'm inclined to defer to his wisdom and is his authority as a, you know, quote expert, if he even is one. His books speak to me. Also, I can disagree with a few of his bigger points that he, he brings to this discussion.

[Pizza]

Yeah, well, and that's a big, that's an important point in general is you don't, you probably shouldn't agree with every point that anyone is making. Like, you and I are very good friends and I would say our friendship gets stronger as we age. And the requirement at no point is to agree with everything that you're saying. It's like, it's fine. People say it to me all the time because I review Rogan. So if they don't like Rogan, they have their two or three points that they probably didn't even listen to him say on the podcast, but who heard about him saying on the View or read some article about it? And they're like, yeah, but you can't agree with that. And I'm like, well, actually, I don't.

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[Pizza]

But that doesn't make me disagree on all the other many insightful and interesting things that he has done and said. And that's not a requirement for me.

[Douglas Murray]

Right.

[Pizza]

You know, I always like to throw back. Well, who do you agree with 100% all the time, and almost no one has an answer. Sometimes some people throw some stuff out. Somebody recently was like, whoa, I really think Kamala was just an inspiration. I didn't know what else to say back.

[Douglas Murray]

What can you say to that?

[Pizza]

What can you say?

[Douglas Murray]

What can you say?

[Pizza]

Yeah, what has been before will be.

[Douglas Murray]

Again, but only if you're unburdened by.

[Pizza]

What has been the passage of time. And also yellow school buses.

[Douglas Murray]

Those Venn diagrams really got her going. I get that.

[Pizza]

Yeah. So I just feel like it's such a bad example of why anyone should listen to anybody else.

[Douglas Murray]

When you agree 100%, you're gonna get caught up in something that you're not signing up for. You're carried along.

[Pizza]

I mean, they did bring up Winston Churchill and people kind of speaking out against him or just having different opinions. I don't know if this is like British bias, but if you're the prime minister in a war, like, even if you, like, you're gonna make some mistakes. Even if you win the war and pull off a miracle victory, which he kind of did, there's gonna be mistakes in there. And I don't know if it's even worth judging anyone just on that mistake.

[Douglas Murray]

Well, in. In war, there's. It's the perfect example of making omelets where you have to crack eggs. The only way to win war is to be real politique. I'm not sure when would that term was invented, but I think it was right around then where you have to be real. Well, maybe we'll look that one up. But it's when you. You can't. You can't adhere to your social values at all times in that. In that instance, you're going to, like, you're going to have to bomb Dresden. You know, people are. It's messy, right?

[Pizza]

Yeah. I mean, you know, and it's not to defend or justify any countries that ever have killed innocent people, and especially, you know, little kids. But if you're put in the position of having to make the decision of when to attack at what time to save your whole country, that doesn't really mean it's your value. Right. I guess Your value is to save your people. But it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that somebody that could be like, okay, yeah, we do need to bomb that building also has his own or her own values that say, I don't want anyone to die or any kids to die.

[Douglas Murray]

There might be a way about going about that a little bit better. I think that's what Dave's point is. Often that, come on, we're the most advanced computer country, or we are all the most advanced militaries that we have ever had. Maybe we could do this a little bit better.

[Pizza]

Oh, than like, blanket bombing an entire.

[Douglas Murray]

City, carpet bombing an apartment complex to. To get one guy and maybe kill 25 people or families. That's. That recently just happened.

[Pizza]

Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of a good point. It's like, I think, you know, the Israelis, like, lay out on paper your total capabilities and let's see if they match up to, like, how you went about this. Because.

[Douglas Murray]

I think that his big problem was the response from, like, Tulsi and all the people we really pulled for Even, you know, I really pulled for finding out that, wow, these people are ready to be complicit in this type of terrible activity. Not to say that it wouldn't. I mean, what would I do? I don't know, but it's just.

[Pizza]

I get it. What did Tulsi say?

[Douglas Murray]

Oh, after the. After they was bombed, or maybe we did. We bombed some bomb maker at his girlfriend's apartment complex. And Tulsi was. You know, there's. There was mass casualties, and she was just like, thumbs up. Good job, America. You know, it's kind of a bad optic. It was in that signal gate stuff when. Oh, when they accidentally signed on to the. That one. The journalist on the wrong. On the wrong teams meeting.

[Pizza]

Yeah, yeah, Those sloppy guys. It was sloppy.

[Douglas Murray]

Anyway, that's realpolitik for you. But it's not cool.

[Pizza]

Or do you think it's just, like, almost the same as kind of what Douglas was defending? They notice, just like politicians, that if you don't only what?

[Douglas Murray]

Go on.

[Pizza]

If you. If you don't not only defend your position, but almost encourage things that. That could require an apology. You're just like, no, that was the best. That's how we need to do it. That just the pushback is so hard. Everyone's coming at you. Everyone's like, see, they acknowledged that it was bad, and they still did it. And it was. It's just like an extra excuse to not be. I don't know what the word is patriotic or supportive of whatever the action is. That type of thing has.

[Douglas Murray]

It's a. And everybody has access all the time to the information that everyone else does. So there's no. There's no getting. Getting around it or sneaking around.

[Pizza]

Mm.

[Douglas Murray]

It's all bad optic. It could all be pushed toward the negative.

[Pizza]

Yeah. Douglas's description of what a libertarian was was fantastic. Calling them basically bisexuals because they. They go both ways. Like, it was clever, it was funny. It was at least the first funny thing that was said, which is interesting. It came from him, since two comedians were on the show. And it's kind of undeniable a little bit. It's like. It's such a clever little line that it's like, oh, damn it, you got me, bitch.

[Douglas Murray]

It's kind of like always wanting your cake and eating it too, sort of thing.

[Pizza]

Mm.

[Douglas Murray]

Rather.

[Pizza]

Yeah.

[Douglas Murray]

Best of both worlds. Best of. But there's no way you can have the best of both worlds ever.

[Pizza]

Yeah. I thought it was going to throw Dave off a little harder than it did. Like, he was going to have to take a second to regroup and be like, oh, I'm a happily married man, but hetero, no homo, just throws it.

[Douglas Murray]

All right, Dave.

[Pizza]

But yeah, it was also. It was a clever point of argument, too. Like, Douglas knew he was in there a while. It's good to get a break. It's good to reset. It's good to have a laugh and, you know, even in a time when you can't find necessarily things you agree on. And it did. It did kind of give him a little reset. And there were moments where they agreed on things. But to be fair, what if I.

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[Pizza]

They probably agree on a lot of things. They just weren't in this conversation. This conversation was designed for two people that have opposing opinions and a lot of knowledge. So through that whole action, it was going to be hard for them to have many things to agree on.

[Douglas Murray]

It wasn't about agreeing. This one was about a certain. This one was about their disagreement.

[Pizza]

Right. Who do you think ultimately, and this isn't like the conclusion of this, but just to kind of frame it before we continue, who do you think came out of this looking the best or was there even a person?

[Douglas Murray]

I think that Dave, Dave Smith really defended his side well. He had great points, he had great references. I really liked when Douglas was talking about the, the living in the West. We, we see the world through the west lens where all the atrocities and the bad stuff happens to the Western countries because those governments are going to allow it to be seen versus hide it. Like North Korea or Russia does its best to hide its flaws. We wear our flaws on our sleeve and I agree with Douglas on that one. It's like we have the freedom here to show the world our mistakes versus the, versus the dictators and stuff. They hide all that stuff. So I liked a lot of points from both of them. I'd say that's a hard question. I can't answer it.

[Pizza]

Yeah, no, I'm kind of with you. I think it's. I like them equally and even on areas that I lean into what Dave's saying or even like understanding of where Douglas is coming from, you know, I think both of them seem valid. Like nobody got checkmated. I don't think anyone looks stupid. I think you've got to give some credit to Douglas because he was kind of on the back foot. It's a little rough when you got two people in there that are potentially coming at you. But he handles that shit so well. He's so composed. He's brave. He knows how to just stare right in the face. Like, he could be. He's the kind of guy that could be on a debate panel with nine other people that disagree with him. And he'd fucking hold his own as, like, the one. The.

[Douglas Murray]

Yeah, he would just sashay around, flounce around, and end up making himself look. And his topic look good.

[Pizza]

Yeah, yeah. His posture wouldn't change. He would still have a great shirt on. Probably get a little bit extra English and just. Just clean up. That must be a weird, like, powerful thing. I wonder if he. When he gets into debates with, like, way dumber people, I wonder if he. It's like, when you play chess with a kid, you'll, like, go a bit easier on him. You're like, oh, that's a good. You know, you're not, like, going in there like, Magnus Carlsen, just to check. Made him in four. Like, you give him a chance. I wonder if he tones down when he's, like, debating lesser debaters. He's like, now just see where this goes.

[Douglas Murray]

I think I've seen that happen. And he does. He does broader strokes. You. You paint more of a broad picture. And maybe you don't bring as much data analysis or this little fine point or that nuance you just. You have a broader stroke with.

[Pizza]

Right.

[Douglas Murray]

I've seen him. I've seen him. I've seen almost everything I can find on. On YouTube with him.

[Pizza]

Yeah, with Doug. He's fascinating, man. He's fascinating. I'm glad he came on. I mean, to hear these two kind of discuss these points is important. And, you know, it's better for me than trying to make sense of it. Watching fucking CNN or Fox News or a 60 Minutes or some documentary. It's like, this is a great way to just kind of break down because, you know, a lot of what they're both doing is summarizing feelings that many people have on each side and just. And just kind of like making the big topic. Like, hey, there's people that look at it this way. And then the other guy is like, well, yeah, but there's also. This is how people are seeing it. And you get to decide as an individual, like, hey, am I gonna listen to a comedian that is. Obviously has a lot of knowledge and has a different angle of looking at it or this guy that's been in the news and a reporter for many years and also is like boots on the ground in those areas.

[Douglas Murray]

I wonder how Dave would do over there. He's. I'm not sure that the Israelis would show him the same all access pass that Douglas has got.

[Pizza]

No. Well, probably no. He doesn't have the like journalistic credentials. He is Jewish though, so he probably has at least some VIP club passes. He'd throw him out, some bottle service.

[Douglas Murray]

Some dancing, Tel Aviv dances.

[Pizza]

To be fair though, if he went to Gaza, might be a little rough for him.

[Douglas Murray]

No one's, no one's welcome over there.

[Pizza]

Yeah. Not anymore. I mean, before they were like blowing up everything. Yeah, people could go there, man.

[Douglas Murray]

It's devastated over there, dude.

[Pizza]

There's nothing left. They, you know, they barely show it a lot of times because the destruction is so flatlined. I mean, they've completely flatlined that place.

[Douglas Murray]

Was Dave saying that he was like, were they in every building then? Is that the deal? Every building? I guess.

[Pizza]

Guess so.

[Douglas Murray]

It's hard to maintain a side on this one when you see what's been going on.

[Pizza]

Yeah. But also it's a bit of a luxury of being over here as we don't have to pick a side. You know, just the hope is that we're conscientious about the events and reflect on it. And I would like to think that everyone agrees that any type of war, any type of death like this is just unfortunate and it sucks for whatever reason and. And yeah, and then hopefully we stay out of similar things.

[Douglas Murray]

You'd hope so. I. It seems like we're fast tracked for the world stage here. In a little few years, it seems like there's going to be quite a conflict brewing.

[Pizza]

I mean, Douglas Porter brought up a really interesting point which is something that's been mentioned a lot. Like there's been a lot of aid going into Gaza for the last 18 plus years from a lot of different countries. Billions and billions of dollars. And you know, they elected Hamas and it seems like Hamas siphoned a lot of the money away and the top people in that organization just enriched their own families to billions of dollars and billions and billions didn't improve the life of the regular Palestinian people there. And it could have been enough money to really turn that place into something livable, really nice.

[Douglas Murray]

Hurts their credibility, doesn't it? Hurts the credibility of that whole thing.

[Pizza]

Yeah, it makes you think a little bit about sending aid because it's like, obviously you want to Help people that need aid. But if they're only getting one cent for every dollar, then, you know, I guess you can still justify it. Well, at least that $0.01 got to the people and gave them food, which they didn't have. But when 60 cents went to buying munitions to eventually use against other people, that's a difficult sell.

[Douglas Murray]

It's mostly going to penthouse luxury suites in Qatar for the family of the people who run that organization, from what we're learning about it. And I. Yeah, it's bad news.

[Pizza]

Yeah. Yeah. But then, you know, this whole motivation thing, I mean, those two got into it about Putin and Ukraine. You know, Putin warning that if Ukraine joins NATO, that's like the firm line in the sand.

[Adam Thorne]

Unlike what you're listening to, T Mobile's coverage is no joke because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service report in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card has no cash access and expires in six months.

[Pizza]

And Douglas was saying, well, no, that's just always been the excuse. He's always wanted to go in there.

[Douglas Murray]

Redo the Soviet Union.

[Pizza]

Yeah. Which I don't think is probably not true. You know, I'm sure he has. But, like, isn't everything timing? So regardless of the motivation, it's like, well, I need a good excuse. This seems like one pushing in that direction.

[Douglas Murray]

If they're putting NATO troops here, they're pushing me to do this. I told them I would.

[Pizza]

And listen, guys, I'm still, like, completely pro America and, you know, I would say pro Europe over Russia. But to be fair, I've never been to Russia. I'm not Russian. I am. I was born in Europe and came to America, so I have my biases and reasons to protect those places. But also, I think there's space to reconsider and question things and just be like, well, maybe, maybe what we're being told is not the whole story here.

[Douglas Murray]

Dave did lay down some pretty interesting facts about former CIA directors trying to come to the table or warning the State Department about the. The red lines that Putin has set down. And then there was the whole, like, truce available. Maybe. Was it seven years ago or just Before. Right. When Biden took office, I think that he said, I will assure you I'm not going to go anywhere. I'm not going to extend my borders if you assure me that Ukraine is not going to be entered into NATO. That never happened. And like you said, maybe we don't know what he's thinking, but that's an excuse that he can use to invade.

[Pizza]

Yeah. And you've got to be careful about giving people excuses. I mean, you know, isn't it fair to say that 911 ended up being the excuse to invade Iraq? That had very little to do with it. It's like you can build momentum with excuses that allow you to get away with things that ordinarily you wouldn't be able to.

[Douglas Murray]

Yes. It's a dicey world we're living in.

[Pizza]

What did you think about Douglas's point when he. And he really held onto this point for war about, have you been there? And he does this. I've seen him do it on Pierce. I've seen him do it on a bunch of different shows when he's kind of. Basically, I guess what he's doing there is expanding upon or, no, justifying his expertise. He's saying, hey, I have these opinions, but also I've walked those streets. Now, is that just a really good play when he knows that he's debating anyone that hasn't been there? And maybe he only throws that out when he's, like, losing an argument or not gaining as much headway with someone who he knows has not been to these places. Do you think it's valid?

[Douglas Murray]

It's. It's. It's a little less than valid. And it's kind of tacky. A little cheap some. I feel it's a little cheap.

[Pizza]

That's what I'm wondering.

[Douglas Murray]

Also, it's true, like, there is credibility from getting there and looking people in the eyes, looking at what they're up to. But if Dave goes there, I'm sure he's going to be convinced to the opposite. He's going to be like, wow, I was. I was right. Look at this stuff.

[Pizza]

And, you know, Graham Hancock does that often when he's talking about ancient sites.

[Douglas Murray]

Have you been there?

[Pizza]

Because it's. Well, when he's talking to, you know, many archaeologists or, like, trying to debate them, he's talking about sites that are not well respected by traditional archaeologists. So they're not really checking it out all that much. So he can always throw out there, like, hey, I went there, I saw it. You go there, you tell me what you think? And at least in terms of archaeology, that's kind of something true that's missing. Like, they are not sending these people to examine sites that are seen as, like, so old and ancient and impossible and, like, imposing.

[Douglas Murray]

So the thing about archaeology is the. The thing itself, in sit in situ, is the only story there is. If you don't go see it, look at it, see the situation, you don't know. Don't know the story.

[Pizza]

Right.

[Douglas Murray]

So maybe that could be translated to. To this situation as well. So maybe there is some validity there.

[Pizza]

Yeah, I think there is, but it doesn't take away from when and how he does it within a debate. Right. So when you're saying it could be tacky the way Douglas does it, it's like, you gotta. You gotta look at more of his debates and see when he uses that, it's like, if he's already winning it and crushing and never brings it up. Okay. But then if he's struggling to make his point and just happens to know this person hasn't been there, does it really add much validity to his thing? Because that's why many people don't like to debate, because you've got two things going on. You've got someone with a lot of knowledge that understands the situation, and then also someone that's very good at debating. And Trump is a prime example of this because he has, whether you like him or not, some of the most legendary moments in presidential debating history where he completely derailed the other individual. The crowd went wild. And when you look at the context and quality of the point that he made, it was mostly like it was close to just being like, you're a nerd. Yeah, everyone knows you're a nerd. It's like that.

[Douglas Murray]

Look. Look at his wife. She's a dog.

[Pizza]

Yeah, so. So that's like a prime example of, like, if you maximize your ability to be a good debater and you're coming in with, like, really no substance at all, then, yeah, it can look like you just win all the time.

[Douglas Murray]

And I guess that is a win regardless of. It's a. If it's a. If it, like, if it looks good on paper is maybe less important than a W in general.

[Pizza]

Yeah. I mean, you got to take a real step back, probably run the transcripts through ChatGPT and then say, take all the insults out and tell me who gave us the most facts. But people aren't hearing it like that. You're not. You're hearing something happen in the moment, and there is a lot of Credit given to somebody that just goes, well, in your face, fatty. And you're just like, oh, damn it.

[Douglas Murray]

Wrong.

[Pizza]

I got wrecked.

[Douglas Murray]

Wrong. Well, on, on the, on the note about Douglas Murray being there and using that in, in his. In these debates. It's also. It's all. We are people in time and place. And the time and, and the location defines us. The socioeconomic status defines us. So if you don't go there and see the people in their places, then you don't really know about it. You can read all you want, you can dissect the, the politics and the military action, but if you don't see the hate and the fear and the love people's eyes, then you're not getting what you're not going to feel. The whole zeitgeist of a people time and place.

[Pizza]

Yeah, I don't really know what my takeaways are from this. I feel like those that agree with Douglas across the board. Let's just say you agree where he is with his understanding of October 7, the Israel situation, where Palestine has been Gaza and Hamas and, you know, saying, hey, we needed to do what we currently have and it's not great and I wish it didn't have to happen, but it needs to happen. Well, what does that mean next? If Iran tries to fire those missiles again at Israel, which they did, is there then justification to flatline that whole country? And then where does it stop if people are constantly doing that. Now I get it. Defend yourself. I support defending yourself, believe me. However, we never seem to get the whole truth from the news or from the government or any governments. So we don't know the whole story of why anyone's shooting anyone at any time. And if we're just watching country after country get flatlined to the ground and a lot of innocent civilians die, I'm glad that the Dave Smiths of the world exist to ask a lot of those questions and be like, hey, can we fucking reexamine this? Like, there are kids in that rubble, folks.

[Douglas Murray]

Oh, yeah, it's. And like you were talking about excuses and reasons. If, you know, if Iran keeps giving them excuses, then. If Iran keeps giving them excuses, then there's gonna keep bomb. There's gonna be bombs. It's just. We got us. It's sickening. Whatever's happening over there at all times, it just happens to be war.

[Pizza]

Yeah. It just doesn't look good for humanity. Right. We send all those ladies to space. We can land rockets.

[Douglas Murray]

The dick shuttle.

[Pizza]

Yeah, we can land all these rockets. Got all this tech. We've got, you know, five gigabytes of download speeds, supercomputers, quantum computers. Yet what? More people die a year in war across the globe.

[Adam Thorne]

Now, unlike what you're listening to, T Mobile's coverage is no joke, because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network switch. Now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off at the $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com KeepAndSwitch up to four lines of a virtual prepaid card. Last 15 days. Qualified unlocked device, credit service port in 90 days. Device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six months.

[Pizza]

There's, like, more people enslaved than ever. I'm just starting to think we're good at making technology improve and then we're not getting much further on. Morality, love for one another, ethics only metric.

[Douglas Murray]

That should count, right?

[Pizza]

Well, I think if, if it's one we took really seriously. If, like, the new iPhone coming out was equally as important as the new philosophy for humanity and loving each other. Not to sound like a huge hippie, but, like, if we did put some weight on there. Yeah, I think we'd take a real closer look at our decision making that leads to people dying.

[Douglas Murray]

You know, I think. Is it Tibet? In the United States and many countries, we have something called the gdp, Right. The gross national profit, I believe.

[Pizza]

Yeah.

[Douglas Murray]

In Tibet. I think it's the only country that has GDH gross domestic happiness.

[Pizza]

Really.

[Douglas Murray]

And I think that'd be pretty neat if we could get that going on everywhere.

[Pizza]

How do they measure it?

[Douglas Murray]

This. You know, I'm not a metrics. I don't know their metrics, but it's, it's. They're concerned about it. We're not concerned about it.

[Pizza]

Yeah, I guess we got to leave it at that. I mean, I didn't. I didn't dislike either of these guys more after this debate. I have the same respect for them I had before, and I'm. I'm not exactly with either of them. I would say I'm a little bit more on Dave's side only because of the innocent civilians getting killed. Now, remember, I'm a stupid podcaster. I don't have to make those types of decisions.

[Douglas Murray]

Thank goodness.

[Pizza]

Thank God. I would never want to do that. But I, you know, I get their points and it's just, it's a tricky, slippery situation and worth a listen, I think this was an important and powerful podcast. That's the PPPs. Yeah.

[Douglas Murray]

Adam's stamp of approval.

[Pizza]

It was heavy. It was heavy, man.

[Douglas Murray]

I'm less inclined to jump on either side. You're more than I had now that I've listened to both these reasonable people once again.

[Pizza]

So you're being a bisexual.

[Douglas Murray]

I'm a little bisexual today.

[Pizza]

There we go.

[Douglas Murray]

Bicurious.

[Pizza]

It's. Yeah. I don't know. I would be interested here from anybody that was listening. Like, email over. Like, did it change your perspective on it? Did it change your idea of it? Did it have you double down? Like, where did you end after this little debate? And are these debates useful? It seems like debate should be useful, but I don't always know if they are because I've got a feeling that the best debater just wins every time, just takes the credit and moves away, assuming there is one. And it doesn't mean that that's where all the facts are. It's just the most compelling argument.

[Douglas Murray]

The listener generally comes to the debate stage. Already made their mind up.

[Pizza]

That's a good point. So, yeah, that's a good point. Well, check it out, folks. We appreciate you listening and Pete, as always, pleasure, my friend. Thanks for tackling this one with me and we will talk to everybody next week. Later.

[Adam Thorne]

Unlike what you're listening to, T Mobile's coverage is no joke because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network switch. Now, keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service report in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card has no cash access and expires in six months.

[Chris Gethard]

Hi, I'm Chris Gethard and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call you talk to one of them, they stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's gonna happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings. Crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose slap, Somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's gonna happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous.