441 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Jordan Peterson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast

Episode: 441 - Joe Rogan Experience Review of Jordan Peterson
Release Date: April 30, 2025
Hosts: Adam Thorne and Andy the Therapist
Description: In this episode, the hosts delve deep into Jordan Peterson’s appearance on the Joe Rogan Experience podcast. They dissect Peterson's viewpoints, his influence on young men, his critiques of modern societal structures, and the broader implications of his public persona.

---

1. Introduction

Adam Thorne opens the episode by welcoming listeners to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast, which aims to extract valuable insights from Joe Rogan’s episodes. He introduces the topic: Jordan Peterson’s appearance on JRE and sets the stage for an in-depth analysis with his co-host, Andy the Therapist.

Notable Quote:

• Adam (00:00): "We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you..."

2. Jordan Peterson's Background and Podcast Appearances

The hosts discuss Peterson's longstanding presence on JRE, noting that he has appeared approximately eight to ten times over the past decade. Peterson's initial rise to fame is attributed to his outspoken opposition to Canada's compelled speech laws regarding pronouns, which led to both controversy and increased visibility.

Notable Quotes:

• Andy (01:27): "He's kind of a regular status on Joe Rogan. This is his eighth or ninth appearance."
• Adam (01:33): "He really pushed hard against the compelled speech laws... and he became very famous. So he started touring and speaking his mind."

3. Shift Towards Conservatism

Originally perceived as more left-leaning, Peterson's confrontational stance against policies he views as authoritarian has reportedly pushed him towards more conservative ideologies. This transition mirrors broader societal shifts observed by the hosts.

Notable Quote:

• Adam (02:56): "He really saw it as a very slippery slope... he was quite left before all of this happened and now he's far more conservative."

4. Collectibles and Dark Parallels on JRE

A segment of the discussion revolves around guests like Shane Gillis and Jamie's indulgence in O.J. Simpson memorabilia. The hosts ponder the psychological implications of owning items associated with dark histories, likening it to possessing a "Nazi cup."

Notable Quotes:

• Adam (04:29): "Supposedly Shane spent thousands of dollars on some of this stuff."
• Andy (04:40): "But, you know, it still can bring some comedy at least."

5. Impact on Young Men and Guidance

Central to Peterson's appeal is his influence on young men seeking direction and role models. His book, 12 Rules for Life, offers a framework for structuring one's life positively, resonating with those lacking guidance due to absent or ineffective paternal figures.

Notable Quotes:

• Adam (05:00): "What I've learned is he's kind of a regular status on Joe Rogan."
• Adam (06:27): "There's a lot of young men that don't have good guidance. They've got, like, no North Star."

6. Dynamics of Peterson on JRE

The hosts reflect on the interplay between Peterson's serious demeanor and JRE's typically light-hearted atmosphere. They note that Peterson's ability to maintain depth while engaging in casual conversation contributes to his enduring popularity.

Notable Quote:

• Andy (09:01): "A lot of the viewers and listeners were saying, thank God that this is gonna be a good episode where it's not just shenanigans basically the whole time."

7. Personal Experiences with Divorce and Step-Parenting

Peterson shares his personal history, including his parents' divorce and the impact of his stepfather. The discussion highlights the varying effects of divorce on children, emphasizing the importance of stable role models.

Notable Quotes:

• Adam (13:07): "The pain of divorce was like, a big thing that they brought up."
• Andy (14:00): "I am also a product of divorce... my son doesn't even remember when the time was when his mom and I lived together."

8. Language on Psychopaths and Parasites

A contentious topic is Peterson's use of clinical terms like "psychopaths" and "parasites" to describe certain societal elements. The hosts express concern over the potential for such language to stigmatize groups unfairly.

Notable Quotes:

• Adam (18:00): "He likes the extreme cases when he's making a lot of his points... It's a bit too extreme."
• Andy (18:31): "Being in his position as a mental health professional, it's a position of power."

9. Online Communities and Incels

Peterson discusses the rise of negative online communities, particularly incels. The hosts explore how these groups validate destructive behaviors and thoughts, fostering environments where resentment and anger thrive.

Notable Quotes:

• Andy (21:57): "Involuntary celibacy, where they might have a particular problem with relationships."
• Adam (22:30): "Twisted idea around love and relationships."

10. Climate Change Discussions

The conversation briefly touches on Peterson's remarks about climate change, with the hosts critiquing his approach. They argue that while climate change is a complex issue, Peterson's framing may lack scientific grounding and appropriate context.

Notable Quotes:

• Adam (30:09): "But it's not going to damage his credibility."
• Andy (32:28): "Climate change doesn't mean that it's going to get hotter... it's a natural progression."

11. Critique of Universities and Wokeness

Peterson criticizes modern universities for fostering a "woke" environment and harboring "parasites." The hosts counter this by emphasizing the role of universities in promoting growth, education, and diverse viewpoints, rejecting the notion that they are inherently indoctrinating.

Notable Quotes:

• Adam (47:11): "It's like these young naive students go to this place and then they get indoctrinated by this way of thinking."
• Andy (45:49): "Being in the environment of the university, it is about growth, it's about education."

12. Social Media Presence and Licensing

The discussion clarifies that Jordan Peterson did not lose his license as a therapist but was reprimanded by Canadian authorities, requiring him to undergo social media training. The hosts compare this to other public figures, noting the challenges of maintaining professionalism online.

Notable Quotes:

• Andy (24:58): "He did not lose his license, but he was reprimanded and asked to take classes on social media presence."
• Adam (29:42): "I don't think Dr. Phil's currently licensed anywhere. But does he need it? No."

13. The Matrix References

A lighter segment delves into references to The Matrix film, discussing Easter eggs and thematic parallels with Peterson's discussions about societal structures and individual agency.

Notable Quotes:

• Andy (40:37): "Is he offering the blue and the red pill?"
• Adam (41:07): "They bring up that simulation because that was the height of human civilization... implying shortly after that changed."

14. Final Thoughts on Peterson's Influence

The hosts conclude by acknowledging Peterson's effective use of credibility—leveraging his academic background and alliances with influential figures like Joe Rogan—to maintain his significant impact on public discourse. They ponder why figures like Andrew Tate also attract similar followings despite controversies.

Notable Quotes:

• Adam (38:09): "He connects to big players in the game like Rogan that keep him around and keep talking with him."
• Andy (39:18): "Is it, you know, building some kind of long distance rapport with someone that you don't really know other than what is available on the media?"

15. Conclusion

Wrapping up, Adam invites listeners to engage with their analysis, encouraging feedback and interaction. The hosts emphasize the importance of critically evaluating influential figures like Jordan Peterson and understanding the multifaceted nature of their impact.

Notable Quote:

• Adam (55:01): "Thank you, Andy, for joining me today. And, yeah, guys, go check out the Jordan Peterson pod. Let us know what you think."

---

Key Takeaways

• Jordan Peterson's Influence: Peterson serves as a pivotal figure for many young men seeking direction amidst societal shifts.
• Complex Language: His use of terms like "psychopath" and "parasites" can be both impactful and polarizing.
• Online Communities: The rise of groups like incels reflects broader mental health challenges intensified by digital platforms.
• Universities under Scrutiny: Peterson's critiques of academia spark debates on the true nature of educational institutions.
• Climate Change Stance: Peterson's perspectives on environmental issues invite scrutiny regarding scientific accuracy and relevance.
• Social Media Impact: The balance between professional responsibility and personal expression online remains a contentious topic for public figures.

Final Thoughts

This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast offers a nuanced examination of Jordan Peterson's multifaceted persona and influence. Through thoughtful dialogue, Adam Thorne and Andy the Therapist present a balanced perspective, highlighting both Peterson's contributions and the controversies that surround him. Listeners gain valuable insights into the complexities of modern discourse on psychology, societal norms, and the power of media influence.

Transcript

[Adam Thorne]

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you, perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's walking Dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review.

[Andy the Therapist]

What a bizarre thing we've created now.

[Adam Thorne]

With your host, Adam Thorne.

[Andy the Therapist]

This might either be the worst podcast.

[Adam Thorne]

Or the best one. One go. Enjoy the show. Hey folks, and welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review. This week we are reviewing Jordan Peterson, the man, the myth, the controversial legend. Today my co host is Andy the therapist. How you doing, Andy?

[Andy the Therapist]

I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

[Adam Thorne]

Great. Yep, thanks for being here. It kind of makes sense that we should have a couple of therapists break down some of Jordan's ideas. Not like he comes on and is full blown therapy mode, but you know, he's a psychologist and smart guy, has very interesting clinical research based ideas on how he kind of sees the world. And yeah, I've always found him interesting for sure. Definitely an interesting guy in front of him.

[Andy the Therapist]

What I've learned is he's kind of a regular status on Joe Rogan. This is his eighth or ninth appearance.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, he's been coming on for about 10 years. And you're kind of new to Jordan. Right, right, right. So basically what got him on the show is he really pushed hard against the compelled speech laws the they were creating in Canada around pronouns and those sorts of things. And he would tie it in to basically points in the history when compelled speech was mandated and he would give examples of like it happening in Russia or these other countries and then where it goes from there. So he really saw it as a very slippery slope, not just this like new thing that we could add to our vocabulary. And you know, I didn't really have a take on it either way, but I mean, he stood his ground and it caused a lot of controversy and in the end Canada kind of won. I mean, they made those laws. You know, he was kind of pushed out of the university system and but also became very famous. So he started touring and speaking his mind.

[Andy the Therapist]

And yeah, he's definitely been on Canada's radar in terms of his social media presence and the controversy that's followed him from that origin for sure.

[Adam Thorne]

And it does seem like because of that he did really push against the left. I think he was quite left before all of this happened and now he's far more conservative is what it seems like. There's just been this bit of this transition. I think, in a lot of ways, Joe's done that, too, and plenty of other people, as noted in our last election. Oh, okay. People are going that way.

[Andy the Therapist]

I definitely picked that up in this podcast.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, it doesn't take long. Right? There's. They're definitely leaning on fewer's points. I really like how it opened up, you know, I mean, Jordan's a very serious person, and Joe can be, too, but they also just like to have some fun and push it. They were talking about Shane Gillis and Jamie from the show buying O.J. simpson memorabilia. And not only is that, like a kind of a funny, quirky thing to do, but it also is like, what is it about that? Like, there is something dark about that. Right. Just to own a piece of it. It's like having a Nazi cup or something.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, the world of collectibles is definitely something that's interesting. And this comes up quite often, actually, with what someone's value and worth is on something. And if they feel like they need to own that bit of dark history there, I don't have an issue with it. But, you know, it still can bring some comedy at least.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, for those guys, it's probably just a good talking point, but, yeah, supposedly Shane spent thousands of dollars on some of this stuff.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, growing up in the early 80s, I'll tell you this, my mom loved O.J. simpson. A lot of people absolutely loved him.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

And she was a little destroyed by the events of the late 80s and early 90s, but she might be the one, too, that still would want a bill's jersey or something.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, I mean, I guess. Does it make everything all bad? Probably does. Probably does. You know, a big thing that almost always comes up when Jordan's on is just his impact or experience, you know, with. With young men, young men feeling stuck. It's a lot of his, like, guidance for his book 12 Rules, just to kind of create a more positive compass, I guess, for how someone should structure their lives. And I think Joe is a big part of why he is as popular as he's become. And definitely early on was that there are a lot of young men that don't have good guidance. They've got, like, no North Star. Maybe their dad's not around. Maybe he is and he sucks. Maybe. Maybe he's a good dad and they just don't want to listen to him. And it's like, well, who do we follow now? You know, and it is interesting because in the 80s, like, I was drawn to, like, Arnold Schwarzenegger movies and, like, Ram. It was just like, that was what a man is. It's not a very productive way to, like, orient yourself as you grow into being a man, but I think it does highlight just the lack of potential directions that you would lean into.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah, definitely. I could see that, too, with, like, growing up watching a lot of James Bond movies.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, yeah, that was me.

[Andy the Therapist]

He didn't have the best take on how you might treat women. But also, those are role models. Harrison Ford, Indiana Jones, Han Solo.

[Adam Thorne]

Yep.

[Andy the Therapist]

And I agree. Stallone and Schwarzenegger. Good hypothetical. Here is, what if there's a kid who's put up for adoption, grows up in foster care or an orphanage or some kind of institution like that, primarily run by women? The stats should back that up. Where's their family systems in terms of role models? Who is the male that they're looking towards?

[Adam Thorne]

That's a good point. Probably the security guys that are not very nice to them.

[Andy the Therapist]

Probably. Or even if they might have a male teacher or if they're involved with what Jordan brings up, like, if they're involved in the church, there might be a youth minister or a pastor or something like that. So those are the people that they're looking towards.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. What's hopeful about is it doesn't take much seriously down to Rogan having a podcast where he gets stoned with his comedy buddies and occasionally references things he's done in his life that have improved his life, like being a hard worker or being, you know, solely focused on these difficult pursuits, doing difficult pursuits, things like jiu jitsu, eating healthy kettlebells all the time, like nutrition, these little. Expanding your mind. Maybe with psilocybin, it's more of a dangerous one, but, you know, it's. It's. He's talking about his growth. And I think that the impact overall for young men that have listened to his show is extremely positive. You know, people have their concerns today because not everyone's a fan of Joe. He's got very big. He has a lot of polarizing elements. And, you know, I don't hold it against any parent that's like, oh, I don't really want my kids listening to. I'm like, I get it. Do whatever. But for those kids that didn't have that male role model, the fact that you can download it this many hours a week and pull good out of it, which, you know, I don't think was Rogan's intention at any point, it just. It's why he appeals to people.

[Andy the Therapist]

And I read through some of the comments on the podcast platform that I was listening to, and a lot of the viewers and listeners were saying, thank God that this is gonna be a good episode where it's not just shenanigans basically the whole time.

[Adam Thorne]

Right? Yeah. I mean, he's had so many comedians on recently, and they're often fun to listen to, but they come on a lot. So they're not doing the better conversations that Rogan has is when it's a new guest because they do kind of a bio intro. They talk about their timeline, their story, and their reason for coming on. Once they've come on a bunch of times, it's just like, a couple of guys hanging out, and they, you know, those ones are, like, much harder to review, really, for me, because it's just like, it's talking about stuff from all over the place and often very similar subjects.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, that was one of the things I did like about what Jordan said there. The initial part of that podcast was his mindset going in, just wanting to have fun. Like, it's just about having fun. Doesn't have to be serious. Just two guys talking, and I not having a lot of experience with him. I'm like, oh, this should be pretty interesting. So let's see where this goes.

[Adam Thorne]

Right? And I think it is, you know, a good. I don't know if Joe sits there and actively thinks, this is how I'll be on the pod today. He's very much just, let's see how it goes, and I'll go whatever direction it needs to be. But he loves to err on the side of just fun and silly. That's why he likes, you know, doing these sorts of things. But for Jordan, like I said, he's a very serious guy. He. He, you know, is still interacting with a ton of people all of the time that are like, thank you for helping my life or reorienting this and that, and here's my story. And, yeah, I think he carries a lot, like, a heavy weight from that. I mean, he discussed it when he started to tour at first, instead of just being in front of one person that you have empathy for, now there's 1500 people in a room all telling you stories. And, you know, he said that was hard. It's like, get used to that. Yeah, I've never thought about it like that. I almost would think that the more you have, in a sense, you're just lecturing to them. There's kind of, like, greater Separation, but maybe not.

[Andy the Therapist]

It's definitely a different experience. I have been in front of large audiences before, not 1500 people, but maybe a hundred people at once.

[Adam Thorne]

It's still a lot of people.

[Andy the Therapist]

It's a lot of people. And conducting any kind of behavioral health or mental health trainings with a microphone in your hand is very different than sitting down face to face with a client.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, for sure. For sure. I can imagine. The. The attitude thing also stands out to me because it's. It's kind of like when he was saying it, it was like, how often do I think of this? Like, when I'm going over the gym, I never think to myself, I, you know, I want to be perceived in a way that's often friendly and approachable and these sorts of things, but I don't actively think about it in my mood and temperament. It fluctuates all day. It's a little different. You know, probably more drowsy in the morning and less likely to communicate. And end of the day, I'm a bit more excited because work's finished. And I wonder what the impact would be if I was more conscious of moving into environments and saying, I want to be like this, in this environment.

[Andy the Therapist]

A level of, like, preparation, kinda like mindset before a game. Like, getting into that zone.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, yeah. Instead of just kind of like, plotting into it and being like, oh, I'm at the gas station again.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right. What am I gonna expect walking into this convenience store?

[Adam Thorne]

The pain of divorce was like, a big thing that they brought up. Now those two are both married with children with the spouse that they had the kids with. You know, Rogan is a product of divorce. I guess his dad left quite young. He was quite abusive, not necessarily towards Joe, but he was aggressive. And then Joe got a stepdad who was much nicer, bit of a hippie. Things were much calmer at home. And, yeah, they kind of discuss, like, the experience of that happening and the impact on kids, for one, which seems to change with age. I mean, if they're very young, I don't know if it's easier, but it's at least easier at that time.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, I've got two different takes on that one. I am also a product of divorce. And if I want to call it a fortunate divorce, I will. My parents divorced when I was in my mid-20s, so it was not like, okay, whose house am I going to go live at? No, I'm already established. I'm working. I have a kid of my own, and then my parents divorce. So if there's a good scenario there. I'll take that. But also, having been through a divorce with young children, that's a different thing. Like, my youngest son doesn't even remember when the time was when his mom and I lived together. So that can be interesting going forward.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

And you just try to normalize the best you can.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, yeah. It happened to me when I was, I think, nine. Nine. So I had a good amount of time, I would say, with my parents and being together. And they were a good team when they were. And it got. It got increasingly bad quickly afterwards. So the impact there was much harder for me because in my brain, the solution was if they were just together, everything would be fine. Yeah. But for my younger brother, who was 4 at the time, far smoother for him. And again, I think he's maybe like your son, doesn't remember that time being together.

[Andy the Therapist]

And with my new wife, we got together about six years ago. She had two younger children, and they definitely have a great relationship with their dad. But I feel that getting into that relationship when they were 5 years old, 8 years old, that made it easier for me to become more part of their life and being that, like people like to call bonus dad, not just stepdad.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

And it's taken time, but I know they love me and I know they trust me. And so there's certain things to take away from all of that.

[Adam Thorne]

Sure. Well, being a step parent is a big responsibility that I hope step parents or new stepparents out there take very seriously. This isn't just an obstacle in your house to your happiness. This is someone that you should have. You should do everything that you can to kind of nurture and help. It's like that has to be part of the relationship. And talking about age, you know where you were saying they're what, 8, 9?

[Andy the Therapist]

I think when I. I mean, I've known them longer.

[Adam Thorne]

Okay.

[Andy the Therapist]

Just by the circumstance, but in relationship sense, it was probably 4 and 8 at the time.

[Adam Thorne]

Okay.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. So a good amount of time to. To kind of teach and develop and kind of build a relationship. And where it was different for me is my mom remarried when I was 18, so I thought I was an adult, a man living in a house with this other gentleman. And it was not pretty for a long time. Now, many years later, he and I have a great relationship and a really good understanding. And luckily we were both open and continue to talk, though we took some breaks, but yeah, that's not an easy way to do it.

[Andy the Therapist]

No. And like I said, luckily for me and My experience with my own parents, divorce, I never had to go through that. Now, my dad did go through a series of wives afterwards that were always interesting. And I've got a great stepmom now, and I love her to pieces.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, that's great.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah, but my mom never really jumped back onto that horse. She dated a few times, but there was never even the concept of getting remarried because she loved my dad so much.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, there's always some sadness there. Well, at least you didn't get a wicked stepmother. That can be a real headache.

[Andy the Therapist]

My stepmom is fantastic.

[Adam Thorne]

Now, talking about wicked people, they talk. You know, Jordan often talks about, like, the psychopaths. Right. He likes the extreme cases when he's making. Making a lot of his points. Pulls out words like parasite and, you know, lumps people in these categories, which I don't do myself too much. I think it's a bit too extreme. But when you're making, I guess, a philosophical point, it's probably pretty useful.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, I think that also speaks to some of the controversies that have followed him, because being in his position as a mental health professional, it's a position of power. And the things that you say carry a lot of weight. Like you mentioned him having these big talks to people, and they're going to hear that and go, parasites, psychopaths. This guy's saying it. I can say it. So it can be dangerous in a sense.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, especially because his job, our job, is diagnosing, which is like an official stamp for a period of time on a person when you're doing it with groups. And then even if he's saying it broadly, but then implies that a certain set of protesters are psychopaths, you know, just by making a point. Who knows what he would say? The people that keep Tesla's or whatever, he would, you know, categorize. Well, then all of a sudden, it really is like pathologizing them, like diagnosing that group.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right. In one big swoop.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, one big swoop. Just check all the boxes. Never talk to any of them.

[Andy the Therapist]

Select all.

[Adam Thorne]

And this thing about, like, the psychopaths online. I liked what he was saying, though, about, you know, in regular life, you know, in, like, social interaction, life in the tribal sense, community, the rest of it. He was saying that the strong men that are, I guess, kind, they kind of keep the psychopaths at bay. They're weaker people. They can just be. It's just like, stop doing this. It's just kind of how the system orients itself most of the time.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah. An idea of balance.

[Adam Thorne]

Something like that. Yeah, but whereas when you're online, you're hidden, no one knows who you are. And then he said that they're good at finding each other too, because it's like you're just looking for like maybe really hateful speech or whatever and they find their little nasty groups and then things kind of grow and swell from that. Yeah, I wonder what your thoughts were on.

[Andy the Therapist]

I mean, it's definitely more prevalent now. You and I both grew up in a, in an era without social media, without online forums. If we wanted to have a discussion with like minded people or any other people, we were at, at the mall, we're at the movie theater, we're at the bowling alley. It was a little bit different. But now, like you said, you can go online, you can search Reddit, you can search different discord, other forums and find what it is that you're looking for and then latch onto it and then take away from it, add to it. The word incel just keeps popping in my head when you talk about like when he mentions weak men. And that's been a big thing for the last, what, eight years? And I can't remember the name of the documentary I just watched, but it was kind of about the evolution of.

[Adam Thorne]

All that, of like the incels and their community. Do you think that they reinforce each other?

[Andy the Therapist]

Oh yeah, they validate each other totally.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. And what is a clear, definite. Could you define incel in celibate?

[Andy the Therapist]

Like voluntary or involuntary? Not voluntary, involuntary celibacy, where they might have a particular problem with relationships.

[Adam Thorne]

Okay.

[Andy the Therapist]

Male, female, you name it. Like kind of feeling outcast because they didn't, you know, they got maybe rejected at one point by someone that they were interested in. So then where are my friends? Oh, my friends are online and I'll go, you know, get what I need from them.

[Adam Thorne]

Right. And the assumption is that rejection and kind of outcasting and inability to therefore mate in a sense builds a lot of resentment, anger, probably being withdrawn.

[Andy the Therapist]

Twisted idea around love and relationships.

[Adam Thorne]

Right, Nasty. Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, that's a tough one because dating is just hard for old people and young people especially. And it's like to think that you're not going to have some really difficult relationships, especially young when you're new to it all and therefore, who knows where that resentment goes, how, how you're able to process it.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah, I mean, I still see it today. I work with clients that either involuntary or voluntarily are still virgins. And like we, as therapists, we talk about treatment goals. And there's been a few times where I definitely include my clients in that process of creating the goals that they want to work towards. And often it's, I want to be in a relationship. I no longer want to be a virgin. And I was like, well, you know, that's something I can't just check off for you, but I can help you work towards achieving that goal.

[Adam Thorne]

Right. Yeah. You can't fly them to Amsterdam over the weekend.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah. It's about self confidence. It's about self esteem, body issues. It can be a lot of things that have kept them from achieving that goal even into their 40s.

[Adam Thorne]

But there are actionable steps.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And that's where people should, you know, get a little bit of hope. Like, if you are stuck in that kind of cycle, there definitely are actionable steps that will improve your chances.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And doing the same thing and getting more resentful is not gonna. It's not gonna help anything.

[Andy the Therapist]

No.

[Adam Thorne]

And I'm sure it doesn't feel good. Yeah. Well, that's therapy for sure.

[Andy the Therapist]

It's definitely therapy.

[Adam Thorne]

He did jump a bit into environmental issues. He did it last time. It created a bunch of controversy. Like, I think even he lost his license as a therapist in Canada because of it.

[Andy the Therapist]

He did not lose his license, but he was repriman and asked to take classes on social media presence.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, that's right.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

With a social media expert, which he. And I think many people can say, what the heck is that?

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah. What is that? But no, that is a common misconception, because when I did kind of do my own ascertainments about Jordan Peterson, people like, oh, the guy that lost his license in Canada. It's like the first thing people say.

[Adam Thorne]

But then, honestly, that's what I thought it was. Yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

A quick, you know, Internet search. And, you know, I debunked that right away. But, like, the. Basically, Canada's Board of health was aware. There was complaints, there was criticism, and their action was so, hey, you know, you need to be very mindful about what you're doing online, what you're doing in terms of social media presence. And here's what we'd like you to do. Like, if, like, it's just like an anger management course, but for, like, what you should and should not say when you are a guest on a podcast or you're in front of a bunch of people or you're posting to various.

[Adam Thorne]

Platforms, because you do technically represent the license. Right, right. I mean, and same rules need to apply. We're under the same rules as him. I think the gray area, though, is, like, the exposure. So there's, like. I don't know how it works, but I'm sure there's. You have to get a certain amount of complaints before it's kind of flagged, and then there's a review, and then they check on it at a local level, like where we are in a small town, five complaints over a year. Significant.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, there's also the severity of the complaint.

[Adam Thorne]

True.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah, true. The actionable ones immediately in our state with other colleagues and peers would be sexual misconduct. Is gonna flag you right away.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

You know, and you're gonna. There's gonna be an investigation immediately, but if it's just more on the minor scope, you're right. It might take a couple complaints before even anything's done. But with Canada and Jordan Peterson, he's definitely now on their radar. Like, oh, yeah, they. This might not just end here. And I. One of the articles I did read following this, this podcast appearance was. It just brought it back to the forefront with them. So, like, oh, we need to keep the magnifying glass on him because he may or may not have learned from these courses that he was required to take.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's a good point. But the difficulty is when millions of people listen to you speak, I mean, we're talking tiny percentages of people need to get mad and start complaining.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

And that's going to add up real quick. But that's the dance, right? I mean, technically, other than the principle of it, he doesn't really need the license. I mean, he makes millions of dollars lecturing, and it's not going to damage his credibility.

[Andy the Therapist]

I don't think Dr. Phil's currently licensed anywhere. But does he need it? No.

[Adam Thorne]

What kind of doctor is Dr. Phil?

[Andy the Therapist]

He's also. I believe he's either a psychiatrist or a psychologist.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, he is.

[Andy the Therapist]

And I believe he was licensed in California. Like I said, I don't think he is now, but I know he was. But it wasn't something that he actively got taken away either. But we are a public figure, and that's what we're looking at with, like, Jordan Peterson in the United States and Canada, globally, I suppose you are going to have a little bit more attention on yourself, especially if you're still practicing. And like I said, I don't know about, like, if he still is, but we definitely know he's out there and his voice is being heard.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. And he's not just a podcaster. Like, he Is this doctor of psychology. He represents this. And you know, there are rules to follow within. And I'm not saying I agree entirely with that Canadian system as well, but I think there's an argument on both sides. I, I don't dislike that he's being stubborn and trying to fight it and refusing to take the course. It's. I'd be annoyed. Somebody sent me to social media training with a quote unquote expert. I would really have to feel like they were an expert before I listened to them.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, I mean, when I played soccer in college, I got one too many red cards. And if I wanted to remain on the team, remain at my university, I had to take anger management courses.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, hilarious.

[Andy the Therapist]

But like, I understand it, like there's gonna be a consequence. And like you said, does it matter to him? Like if he did lose his license, would it matter? I don't really think so because I don't know how much of his own personal income is based off personal practice.

[Adam Thorne]

A zero.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right. And it's all the social media, the tours, the talks, books.

[Adam Thorne]

Books, Podcasts.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah, books is a big one. Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Anger management.

[Andy the Therapist]

Anger management.

[Adam Thorne]

I can't imagine you having to go to an anger management class.

[Andy the Therapist]

18 year old me is very different than me now.

[Adam Thorne]

No doubt, no doubt. Well, and also being competitive in sport is also very different than just being an angry person as well.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

So that's a definite distinction. But back to the climate thing. I don't know what his motivation is for leaning into this type of talk. Like he talks about, okay, so there's more CO2 now because of the carbon emissions, the world is 20% greener. I don't know how to verify that, but let's assume it's true just for the sake of it. That sounds pretty good. Right? You want, want it more green? It is getting hotter. Is it that? You know, I don't know what the point is he's trying to make. Is he just trying to say, hey, you know, it's a waste of our energy, it's a distract distraction, a waste of our time to even try and be environmentally conscious. Is his point that we're maybe actually not getting good information?

[Andy the Therapist]

I don't know. That topic took me off guard too when I was listening to the episode and I was like, why is this coming up with a psychologist? It's just like, okay, so then me forming an opinion about him, to me, that kind of undermines his own credibility. If I'm going to come on here and talk about therapy and behavioral health I'm not going to slip in how I feel about auto mechanics or engines and cars. It would be a weird thing for me to get into. But with climate change, I don't know, maybe it's just low hanging fruit. Right now, with our current administration, I definitely believe in climate change. I believe in science and being the ages that we are and being well traveled, we've definitely been to places in the 80s that had smog hanging over a city. And then you travel to it now and there's nothing. It's clean air.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, yeah. Louisiana, Perfect example.

[Andy the Therapist]

Salt Lake City, Pittsburgh, Chicago. I remember the first time I flew into Salt Lake City and I was like, man, it was when I was younger, I was like, this would be a very pretty town if there wasn't this weird smog hanging over this city. And then, yeah, since I've traveled back a few times over the last few years, it's gorgeous. So whatever impact that they've done, environmentally changing laws, fuel efficiency, emissions, checking things like that, factory output, I believe it's working.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, it's regulation a lot around. Catalytic converters, believe it or not, they just made them much better. And most of the emissions now, I mean, they're like 10 times cleaner. It's like more like CO2 rather than carbon monoxide, which is like the nasty one.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

Still a lot of brake dust and tire wearing down going on. I mean, living cities still wears you out, like not, not great. But you're right, it's a huge difference. And going back even further, I mean, the Industrial revolution, everything was coal. You go to places in Ohio still, they have old churches and they're black on the outside and it's soot and the stone underneath is white. And it was just how it was everywhere. Yeah, I mean, much worse.

[Andy the Therapist]

And then this all comes down to also just being knowledgeable about a topic. Climate change doesn't mean that it's going to get hotter. Climate change is the earth goes through a natural progression, flying through orbit, spinning around our proximity to the sun. There's natural climate change that occurs. Now if we accelerate that with the pollution and things like that, that's on us. But there's patterns. And he's referencing these models and doubt around it. Well, there's science and facts to back it up. We've got data to look at. We know when ice ages occurred, we know when weather changes. Here in Montana, we've had a couple odd winters lately. Last year was very mild. And this one that we just came out of, or still kind of in, was More of a typical winter. Right. And we see it, you know, and there's times that I've been here and it's been colder in the southeast than it's been here. This is what climate change looks like.

[Adam Thorne]

Right. And I think the point that you're highlighting is it's in flux anyway, and there are billions of variables. It's very, very complicated. So maybe no one has the clear answer. And again, being a psychologist and making this a big point to millions of people, I just. If he was going to tie it into something to do with psychology, I think that there would be value there. But it's just a little tricky to do. It's like if I go on a rant about creatine, I could like creatine. I could be like, I've taken it. It's really good. But if I'm just like, hammering you of all these facts and you're like, dude, you're not like a creatine scientist, relax. Maybe for everyone it doesn't work great. Or. I don't know.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, if there was a good topic or something to come out of his climate change was the addressing poverty. It's more likely that people with more substantial wealth can afford to have a cleaner environmental impact than someone who's below the poverty line. Right. So I thought that was one of the nicer things to come out of that discussion. It's something that needs to be addressed.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. And you're right, that was more valid because that led into him talking about reducing energy costs kind of the world over, making energy as cheap as possible, because that seems to be, like, one of the primary factors for pulling people out of poverty and creating a system around that to where we prioritize that over just profits. That sounds great. I like that idea. We need a bunch of nuclear power stations, I think. I don't know how it works. Andrew Tate, let's finish up. Well, I don't know if we'll finish up with that, but Andrew Tate, let's jump onto him. Massively polarizing figure. You know, Jordan gives the example of, like, what? You know, why do people like him? And he's like, well, it's better to be him than an incel. Well, you know, is it better for everyone to be him? Maybe not, but for the individual and how they feel about themselves, probably is. That's a reasonable statement.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, I don't have a lot of opinions on Andrew Tate. I do like his first name. That's a pretty good name.

[Adam Thorne]

Andy Tate.

[Andy the Therapist]

But like I said, I mean, this goes Back to why do we invest in Jordan Peterson's take on things? How much validity and how much gospel do we put into it? And I say gospel is very much pun intended when it comes to Jordan Peterson.

[Adam Thorne]

He loves that. Now. That's a good point. Yeah. It's like he's built credibility around his lectures and his online presence, his books. We know he has a lot of experience, he's a doctor. That always helps. The resume builds itself and he connects to big players in the game like Rogan that keep him around and keep talking with him.

[Andy the Therapist]

Relevancy for sure.

[Adam Thorne]

And you know, but why, why are so many people drawn to Andrew Tate? I mean, there are so many young men that are just like, he's the best, even with all the controversy that he's had, I mean, which should raise some questions of concern, you know, again, innocent till proven guilty stuff. But it's like highlights some, some areas you should consider.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right. And like, is it, you know, building some kind of long distance rapport with someone that you don't really know other than what is available on the media? Do they make a connection there? Do they see themselves in Andrew Tate or do they want to see themselves as Andrew Tate?

[Adam Thorne]

I think that's more of what it is. You know, he looks confident, he's handsome, he's clever, and he's got a good name. Great name. He. He's tough, you know, I mean, he was a world champion kickboxer. Makes tons of money. You know, he's got women around him all the time. It's like that whole on a yacht type thing.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And. And he hammers people. He hammers them hard. Meaning, you know, systems, countries, tax laws. Talks about the Matrix all the time. Oh, you're stuck. You're stuck and you can get out and you can be free. And it like for people that are stuck or feel stuck.

[C]

When the Moore family ditched cable Internet and switched to Siddly fiber, they got so much more. Mr. Moore got more upload speed for next level gaming and livestreaming to the masses with reliable service. Mrs. Moore is no longer her family's IT guru, leaving her more time to stream games into overtime.

[Adam Thorne]

Let's go.

[C]

And young Mason Moore got more done quickly uploading HD product demos and video conferencing with freezing.

[Andy the Therapist]

The numbers look good. Brad, you're on mute.

[C]

Switch from cable Internet to Zibli Fiber and get more of what you love for $65 less per month than [e-mail].

[Adam Thorne]

Like even to have any idea of where you could go is like, somewhat hopeful.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah. Is he offering the blue and the red pill?

[Adam Thorne]

Definitely. Yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

There is no spoon.

[Adam Thorne]

Great movie. I just watched it, actually. It holds up. It holds up. Kind of freaks me out. I'm like, maybe. Maybe the end of the 90s was the peak of civilization.

[Andy the Therapist]

I've actually listened to a couple podcasts on that rather recently where, like, are we stuck in 1999? Right, right.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

It's kind of frightening some of the points they bring up.

[Adam Thorne]

Dude. Do you know one of the weirdest coincidences from that movie? You know when he gets interrogated at the beginning and he's like, Mr. Anderson. And he, like, opens the folder all slow and that guy's so good. Mr. Smith.

[Andy the Therapist]

Hugo Weaving.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Brilliant. And he's. He's like, doing the interrogation thing. He has all the documents. Neo's passport expires September 11, 2001.

[Andy the Therapist]

I did not notice that detail.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, it's hard to know, like, that you would see it on there. But, like, you. They. You can Google it. They bring it up. Now, obviously, just a coincidence, but in the framework of that movie and talking about how they picked that simulation because that was the height of human, like, civilization and everything after that, implying shortly after that changed and was never quite the same, a reasonable marking point in history would be 9, 11.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right, right, right.

[Adam Thorne]

And it's like, that's when he can no longer travel. Think about it. That's what that means.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

I don't know. I like those things.

[Andy the Therapist]

I do, too. I like Easter eggs of those levels and, like, putting some thought to it.

[Adam Thorne]

It's fun. It's fun.

[Andy the Therapist]

Mr. Anderson.

[Adam Thorne]

So good, dude. And they. Even the fights, all the special effects hold up. I mean, it's a pretty old movie now.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And it still looks so tight.

[Andy the Therapist]

I think it was one. When DVDs came out. It was one of the first five DVDs I bought sick because I had to have it.

[Adam Thorne]

That was such an upgrade from vhs. I mean, night and day. I couldn't believe how clear it was.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

I was just like, we are moving into a beautiful future.

[Andy the Therapist]

A funny story about the Matrix run there. When they had the first trilogy. I was living in Georgia at the time and my wife at the time. We had just seen the. The third one come out. I can't remember the Resurrection or whatever it was called. We're walking out of the theater and there was a couple behind us. And the guy was just complaining about how that movie made absolutely no sense at all. He's like, I didn't Get a bit of it. He threw in a lot of like. There's some cuss words in there too, that I'm not gonna say, but his wife then smacks him on the arm. Well, I told you, you should have seen the first two.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh.

[Andy the Therapist]

And I was like, oh, my God.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Of course it didn't make any sense. The character development by that point is like 50 characters.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

And you've got different timelines and. Yeah, nonsense, Nonsense. Brilliant. That's hilarious. All right, let's finish up with a point that, you know, hits home often. The universities. Right. And he talks about the parasites in the universities. And you know, what he's really highlighting is like the wokeness, how universities have moved in this very woke direction. I mean, universities have been a place of liberalism for a long time. And so I don't know how new it is. Maybe it's just more prevalent and maybe there's just slightly more pressure towards conservative voices there. So it's creating maybe a bit of its own echo chamber. But what was your take on the parasite kind of idea? And what I mean by that specifically is he's like implying that these people that are considered parasites exist and then go find these groups that, you know, he's implying are at universities and then they just kind of take it over because of the influence, power and money that universities have.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, to me, the interesting part about that is obviously he had to have attended university to get to where he is.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Andy the Therapist]

And looking at his age, it's going to be his peers that are in charge of universities now. And his age frame like they're the deans, they're the presidents, they're the people that are fostering what he's claiming is this environment that is conducive to parasites. So it's an interesting take. It's like, I'm never going to badmouth university systems. We live in a college town. I love what the university does for our city and for the culture here. And I just, I can't agree with it that it's just too much of a drastic take to say that, like, the universities are the ones that are making this happen.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

And being in the environment of the university, it is about growth, it's about education, and it's about letting young people find themselves. And I didn't mean to just say young people, but like non traditional students too. Some people may not be ready when at a traditional age, but this is growth. This is how we become who we become being out there. For most people, it's their first time on their own. Maybe on their own in a new city, like finding yourself and being that person that is in charge of your own life instead of having a mom or a dad saying, hey, time to get up, you're on your own now, you've got to get to class, you've got to figure it out. So I have such a romantic ideal around universities and just, I can't agree with any of that that he said.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, it's almost like he's implying and many people that have this criticism that the influence is too strong in one direction. It's like these young naive students go to this place and then they get indoctrinated by this way of thinking and then bring it into the landscape of careers and corporate stuff and then it leads to the DEI and affirmative action job placement, blah, blah, blah.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right. Well, is it easy to point the figure when you're not the one involved? If he wants change in university systems and hey, go apply for some jobs, go be a dean somewhere, go be a professor. Even if you think, well, he used.

[Adam Thorne]

The teacher at Harvard.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah, that makes it even more bizarre to me.

[Adam Thorne]

Right, right.

[Andy the Therapist]

You know, like, but if he. Your word there was used to. And he's seeing this change now, like, we'll go back. Yeah, you got, you got the experience.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, he's opening the Peterson University.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, there you go.

[Adam Thorne]

Like some separate university idea that's not quite accredited but maybe will be one day. The thing for me is, like, would you describe going to school, your graduate school in therapy as like fairly woke program in the sense of what the traditional term of wokeness is? I mean, we're taught to be quite open and non judgmental to everybody. That's a big part of what it is. So I kind of see it as a very woke degree.

[Andy the Therapist]

Sure.

[Adam Thorne]

And regardless of my thoughts on wokeness, I don't feel pressured in my degree. As one of the few men in my program, I don't feel like that I've been judged or pressured or I'm sure some of my actions have helped. They don't just like storm into the room like Andrew Tate, obviously, but that's just more me being aware of my presence.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, in your program, did they talk to you at all about being an agent of change?

[Adam Thorne]

Yes.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yes. So that's probably the closest thing I can think of where an instructor or professor wants you to take this position in this education very seriously and affect change in your community, in your state, in your country, wherever you land. But I don't think it Was like this militant call to arms, either. It's like, you choose social workers, counselors, behavioral specialists, caseworkers. There's a reason why people choose these professions, and it's not nefarious.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Andy the Therapist]

And the bottom line is we want to help people. And that's. So you take what you want from whatever a professor might say to you. I've had some radical professors. I've had some idiot professors. I had this one guy who wanted me to stay after class so he could show me his new ink, and I'm like, this is inappropriate. By his new.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, his tattoos.

[Andy the Therapist]

Tattoos.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

He's literally taking off his shirt to show me his new chess piece. But now, were they trying to indoctrinate me into anything? I don't think so. But that's where it comes into this growth development. You choose what you want to believe in, in that aspect. And said, I don't ever like to get into discussions about being woke. And there's good points, there's bad points, but generalizing it I don't think is good either.

[Adam Thorne]

And it's also just one influential factor of many. Like, your friend group is not necessarily like, maybe, yeah, maybe your friend group does go to that school, but you could still have a job. You still have Internet access, You still can read newspapers. There's lots of different angles to go down.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

And the idea is that you will hopefully identify ways of thinking and behavior that don't really fit with you, that you don't like. And then you'll say, oh, I choose not to be a part of this.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah. I mean, I think they would. It would fit more in a timeframe of anything pre 1990s and pre the Internet, where you are on an island at your university or college.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. That's more dangerous. Yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

And you've got this one professor who's just like, oh, we gotta storm the capitol, or we gotta do this or we gotta do that, where you're not having that ability to research and find out for yourself, like, what you really want to follow and what path you want to go down.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, that's a good point. And that's what I wonder is, like, a lot of people are making it out today like, this is the worst it could be. They've finally just fallen off. And I'm like, is it because we've forgotten what it was like in other generations? What were the universities like in the 70s, right. Like, when it came to protests and radical thinking and things that, you know, all the grownups didn't like, about it. It's like, I don't know. I don't know if it was that much difference and therefore, if it's as much of a concern as people make out. And I mean, I'm kind of basing that off the fact that I'm just. I'm just went through a graduate program.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

At a school. It's, you know, that is reasonable to say there's a pretty liberal left wing woke ish degree program. And I'm like, yeah, it was fine. Yeah, it was just fine. There were different people in that. There were plenty of people that I'm like, I don't know if I'm that close to that person.

[Andy the Therapist]

Do you think it fundamentally changed you?

[Adam Thorne]

It did, in the sense of preparing me for the career, of course. And because of the nature of this degree, it's not like they're teaching me math. They're actually trying to teach me ways of thinking and behaving and nonjudgmental. It's like all of that's very positive.

[Andy the Therapist]

Do you feel like you had significant empathy before you took your graduate program?

[Adam Thorne]

Yes, but I don't think I expressed it or showed it as well as I can now.

[Andy the Therapist]

So you feel like that your program at least, like, helped foster and grow that empathy in terms of, like, going into this profession?

[Adam Thorne]

I think so.

[Andy the Therapist]

Okay.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Andy the Therapist]

Because that's where it comes down to, I think that there's some people believe that this empathy or these thoughts or these ideals are just preached to you in programs at universities and. No, most people have it already. But being in mental health and behavioral health, you definitely need a lot of empathy, right? Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Well, I think it's important that you, that you show to others that you have it instead of just feeling it and them not knowing.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

A big part of that change is, you know, the eye contact, the leaning in, the not waiting for your turn to talk type of things. Being a listener, that's, you know, those elements have been really helpful.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

But no, I'm the same person.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

I didn't get out being nicer, I'm afraid.

[Andy the Therapist]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

I just maybe seem a bit nicer.

[Andy the Therapist]

The university made you nicer.

[Adam Thorne]

It's a good review.

[Andy the Therapist]

I took a. I took Anger Management 101.

[Adam Thorne]

You know, I kind of want to sit in on one of those classes. I want to see what it's about.

[Andy the Therapist]

Well, I'll just say mine at least involved a Kermit the Frog puppet that I had to tell Kermit how I felt about my emotions at the moment.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, dear Lord, no.

[Andy the Therapist]

Yeah, so that was definitely. I still have that puppet to this day. I don't need him, but he's there.

[Adam Thorne]

That is brilliant. You should. You should bring that out in session sometime. Be like, tell me about your feelings and just do the voice.

[Andy the Therapist]

Oh, well, you know, I think you're taking this a little bit too far.

[Adam Thorne]

Love it. Well, on that note, thank you, Andy, for joining me today. And, yeah, guys, go check out the Jordan Peterson pod. Let us know what you think. Send us emails, questions, you know, anything that we missed that that you thought was relevant, and otherwise, we'll talk to you guys next.