451 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Jesse Michels

Summary

Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast - Episode 451: Review of Jesse Michaels

Release Date: June 24, 2025
Hosts: Adam Thorne and Hayden
Guest: Jesse Michaels (Creator and Host of American Alchemy YouTube Series)

---

Introduction

In Episode 451 of the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast, hosts Adam Thorne and Hayden delve into Jesse Michaels' appearance on the Joe Rogan Experience. The discussion primarily revolves around UFOs, ancient civilizations, government conspiracies, and the implications of advanced technologies.

---

Overview of Jesse Michaels and His Influence

[02:15] Adam Thorne:
Adam introduces Jesse Michaels as the creator and host of the "American Alchemy" YouTube series, filmmaker, and podcaster. He highlights Jesse's deep connection with Joe Rogan, attributing much of Jesse's expertise to Rogan's early UFO discussions.

[03:07] Hayden:
Hayden admits he had no prior knowledge of Jesse before the podcast but found his insights and memory impressive after preliminary research. He praises Jesse's ability to relay extensive information clearly and effectively.

Notable Quote:
[03:07] Hayden: "I was really just shocked at his wisdom and especially his memory."

---

Personal Experiences with UFOs

[03:28] Adam Thorne:
Adam shares a personal childhood experience where he and other kids witnessed unexplained lights near Stonehenge, a known hotspot for UFO sightings. The event left a lasting impression, fostering his interest in extraterrestrial phenomena.

[04:27] Hayden:
Hayden discusses his initial interest sparked by the Roswell incident during high school, leading him down a rabbit hole of UFO research and government coverups.

Notable Quote:
[04:27] Adam Thorne: "I was thinking to myself, wow, this is gonna be amazing that we got to discover it."

---

Belief in Extraterrestrial Life

[06:56] Adam Thorne:
Adam expresses his inclination to believe in extraterrestrial life based on the vastness of the universe, questioning whether intelligent life exists beyond single-celled organisms.

[07:12] Hayden:
Hayden concurs, emphasizing the statistical improbability of life not existing elsewhere in the universe but remains skeptical about the notion of aliens visiting Earth.

Notable Quote:
[06:56] Adam Thorne: "I'm inclined to believe the basic statistic that there's just so many stars and planets and galaxies out there that I mean, it happened here, right."

---

The Roswell Incident and Government Secrecy

[09:04] Adam Thorne:
Adam recounts his visit to the Roswell museum in New Mexico, describing it as underwhelming with limited information and predominantly showcasing crop circles.

[10:06] Hayden:
Hayden questions the authenticity and purpose behind crop circles, pondering whether they are messages from extraterrestrial beings or government experiments.

Notable Quote:
[10:57] Adam Thorne: "But it's not doing a very good job... It's almost like we got so good we can't verify anything anymore."

---

Ancient Civilizations and Advanced Technologies

[16:52] Hayden:
Hayden introduces the concept of the Anunnaki and discusses ancient hieroglyphs depicting a winged, bearded creature bestowing knowledge to early civilizations. He suggests that these interactions may have accelerated technological progress in ancient times.

[37:15] Hayden:
Hayden speculates that the pyramids might have functioned as power structures rather than tombs, citing their precise alignments and sacred geometries.

Notable Quote:
[17:47] Adam Thorne: "They have perfectly facing north and there's a certain ratio... it's like the perimeter of the pyramid is the same diameter of the Earth."

---

Bob Lazar and Reverse Engineering Alien Technology

[31:05] Hayden:
Hayden praises Bob Lazar, a controversial figure who claims to have worked on reverse engineering extraterrestrial propulsion systems at Area S4 near Area 51. He notes Lazar's consistent narrative as lending credibility to his claims.

[32:49] Adam Thorne:
Adam discusses the potential for advanced AI within alien technology, pondering why AI hasn't been a prominent topic in UFO discussions.

Notable Quote:
[32:28] Hayden: "Bob Lazar is one of the most fascinating characters in this case, especially since his story has remained so consistent over time."

---

Implications of Revealing Alien Existence

[25:26] Hayden:
Hayden elaborates on how the confirmation of extraterrestrial life would destabilize societal structures, including religions and historical understandings. He anticipates widespread fear and existential questioning among the populace.

[28:03] Hayden:
Hayden reflects on human desensitization, suggesting that even if alien existence were confirmed, daily life would continue with only a shift in philosophical and religious dialogues.

Notable Quote:
[26:07] Adam Thorne: "If they just did come out and say, yeah, we do have the craft... it changes war forever."

---

Technological Advancements and Secret Projects

[39:44] Adam Thorne:
Adam speculates on the existence of highly classified projects that surpass public military technology, such as advanced propulsion systems hidden from public knowledge.

[43:08] Hayden:
Hayden discusses the potential of artificial intelligence being integrated into alien technology, enhancing its capabilities for intergalactic travel and stealth operations.

Notable Quote:
[43:38] Hayden: "You would need that to do intergalactic travel for all those complex calculations on the dot and on the fly."

---

Future Discoveries and Public Perception

[36:49] Hayden:
Hayden predicts that advancements in technology, like improved LIDAR, will unveil hidden ancient structures worldwide, challenging current historical narratives.

[44:29] Adam Thorne:
Adam highlights the rapid progression of technology and its potential role in future UFO sightings and discoveries, emphasizing the difficulty in maintaining secrecy.

Notable Quote:
[36:45] Adam Thorne: "Give it 50 years and we'll probably have an app on our phone that can scan the ground."

---

Conclusion

Adam and Hayden conclude the episode by expressing optimism about future revelations related to UFOs and extraterrestrial life. They acknowledge the challenges in providing tangible evidence due to advancements in AI and digital falsification but remain hopeful that continued research and discoveries will eventually bring clarity.

[50:03] Adam Thorne:
"We're back to the Matrix. I need to watch the Matrix."

[52:07] Hayden:
"Hey man, we're gonna find out. Thanks a lot for joining me today, Hayden, and we'll talk to you guys soon."

---

Key Takeaways

• Jesse Michaels' Expertise: Leveraging Joe Rogan's early discussions on UFOs, Jesse has become a pivotal figure in UFO research and discourse.

• Government Secrecy: Persistent themes of government concealment regarding UFO technology and extraterrestrial interactions.

• Ancient Aliens Theory: Exploration of how ancient civilizations may have been influenced by or interacted with advanced extraterrestrial beings.

• Technological Implications: Speculations on the integration of AI within alien technologies and the potential future impact on human society.

• Public Perception: The societal and philosophical consequences of confirming extraterrestrial life, emphasizing the potential for widespread fear and existential debates.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Hayden at [03:07]: "I was really just shocked at his wisdom and especially his memory."

• Adam at [06:56]: "I'm inclined to believe the basic statistic that there's just so many stars and planets and galaxies out there that I mean, it happened here, right."

• Adam at [10:57]: "But it's not doing a very good job... It's almost like we got so good we can't verify anything anymore."

• Hayden at [32:28]: "Bob Lazar is one of the most fascinating characters in this case, especially since his story has remained so consistent over time."

• Hayden at [26:07]: "If they just did come out and say, yeah, we do have the craft... it changes war forever."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 451 offers a comprehensive exploration of UFO phenomena, blending personal anecdotes with theoretical discussions. Hosts Adam Thorne and Hayden effectively analyze Jesse Michaels' insights, providing listeners with a thought-provoking examination of extraterrestrial life and its potential ramifications on human civilization.

Transcript

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The Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces.

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Of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you.

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Perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way.

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To Joe's walking dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created.

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Now with your hosts, Adam Thorne, this might either be the worst podcast or.

[Adam Thorne]

The best one of all time. One Go enjoy the show. Hey, guys. And welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review. This week I'm joined by Hayden. How you doing, bud?

[Hayden]

Good, how are you?

[Adam Thorne]

Not too bad, not too bad. Thanks for coming in.

[Hayden]

Thank you.

[Adam Thorne]

I knew you'd like this one. Oh, yeah, I had a feeling. We are reviewing Jesse Michaels appearance, episode 2331. What a story this man brings forward. Jesse's. He's the creator and a host of American Alchemy YouTube series, filmmaker, podcast. Interesting guy. Obviously a big fan of Rogan, which is cool. You know, we're getting more and more of those guests on now that like, honestly have grown up with Rogan. So the influence is like, you know, a big part of why this guy got so good at doing this is because of Joe's early UFO rants. And now we've got really smart people out there gathering incredible amounts of information.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And yeah, it's exciting. What did you know of this guy before the podcast?

[Hayden]

Honestly, I did not know anything about him before.

[Adam Thorne]

Me too.

[Hayden]

I just did my preliminary research to see what he was into. And just from his source material and what the Internet was saying, it's right up my alley of the things that I find interesting. And I was really just shocked at his wisdom and especially his memory. When coming on the podcast, he's able to relay all this information in a really well stated manner.

[Adam Thorne]

He sharp. He's been buying that alpha brain.

[Hayden]

Oh yeah, that's got to be it.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. He was pulling up facts left and right and then also relating it back to other guests that have been on Rogan. I mean, you can tell he's like full on board with, with the whole sphere there. And he's definitely on my radar now. I'm going to be going to him for most of my updated UFO info. Kind of started off with like his personal UAP sightings. This one's always interesting to me because so often it seems like the big UFO fans have also had their experience with UFOs.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And is it one of those things where when you're looking for it and thinking about it constantly, every flashing light in the sky could be something.

[Hayden]

Yeah, exactly. You kind of make the narrative from what it's just constantly cycling in your head. So I could see that perspective, but I don't know. Have you had any perspectives with UAPs or UFOs in your life?

[Adam Thorne]

You know, when I was a kid, my dad used to go to a lot of festivals in England and there would be like for Greenpeace or Glastonbury or just like somewhere in a field where a band is playing. And we'd have tents and we. You know, all the hippies would be out there. He was a big hippie. And there was one time I must have been. I was pretty young, maybe like eight, seven or eight. And I was with a bunch of kids in a field, and it was dark and the festival stuff was happening somewhere. The parents were just drinking. They were getting drunk. They weren't worried about us. And we were running around and we all stopped and saw these three lights in the sky. I can't be sure of my memory now with this. Cause it was so long ago, but I do remember that. Oh, all of us were looking and we were really shocked by it. And it just slowly turned. And how we knew is the stars were disappearing.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Like, where the lights were connected, the three. And it was just turning. And it was pretty close to where Stonehenge is. And they often get a lot of UFO sightings. And it just slowly turned and then all of a sudden zipped off and didn't make any noise. And we all ran back to the tent where our parents were. And I remember running back to the tent with these kids. We were all so excited. We were like, we saw an alien. We saw a ufo. And I was thinking to myself, wow, this is gonna be amazing that we got to discover it. As soon as we tell our parents, they're gonna know it's real, and then they can tell everyone else. Yeah, Well, I was 8. I didn't understand how information works and how quickly you're dismissed by drunk parents, unfortunately.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And they just went, okay, great, kids, if you'd mind just going off and playing some more. Super disappointing.

[Hayden]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And again, I just don't. I don't really know what it was. You know, maybe I didn't even see it. And some of the other kids told me I can't remember.

[Hayden]

Fair enough.

[Adam Thorne]

But still seems pretty spectacular in my mind. What I remember. It was cool.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

I remember just thinking, holy shit. But that's all I've had.

[Hayden]

Interesting.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. I haven't seen. What did he say, like a silver school bus?

[Hayden]

Yeah, it looked like one of those jet streams. Right. Super interesting. I mean, that being said, though, with your own experience of having seen one at a young age, do you personally believe in just aliens in general? Like life on other planets?

[Adam Thorne]

I mean, look, I'm. I'm inclined to believe the basic statistic that there's just so many, you know, stars and planets and galaxies out there that I mean, it happened here, right?

[Hayden]

Of course.

[Adam Thorne]

So there's some of that. Is it all single celled? You know, are we like the one thing that became multicellular? Maybe. They say that was a super unlikely fluke true for evolution or whatever. Is there some weird shit going on in the sky? Yes, that too. I believe it. Are we making it? I don't know.

[Hayden]

Who knows? Yeah, and that's what these guys do.

[Adam Thorne]

But it's a lot of fun to think about. Oh, seriously, where do you see?

[Hayden]

Well, like you said, statistically I think it is highly improbable that life doesn't exist elsewhere in the universe. But when it comes to if they have visited Earth before, it's entirely speculative. And what really got me into like the rabbit holes and the ideas that I have nowadays was the Roswell incident that I learned about in high school. And it led me down this massive rabbit hole of, you know, do aliens exist? What government coverups look like? And ever since that day, it's really led me into learning about those stories. And I find it fascinating. So having someone like Jesse Michaels. Is it Michaels or Michaels is.

[Adam Thorne]

It might be Mikael's, actually. Did I say Michaels?

[Hayden]

I forget how he said it, I think because at the end he says Michaels without the A. So who knows?

[Adam Thorne]

It's spelled a bit different. Anyway, our apologies, Jesse. You're awesome, dude.

[Hayden]

But to hear his fascination and where his comes from, it sparks that same curiosity in me that I had when I was that age. And you know, it's such a fascinating rabbit hole to see, like, do we have this technology, have these aliens visit us before? And I'm sure we'll get into all the niche timeline stuff with the government involvement, ancient civilizations, but man, it's a fascinating story that's been around for far longer than we come to recognize.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. And the Roswell one seems like. I mean, that is the most famous crash story. I mean, they've done a really good job if there's more of covering those up. But the Roswell one was close. Oh, yeah, we were close to really figuring some things out. And yeah, there's something really funky that went on there. Yeah, really funky. I went down to the museum there. Cause I used to live in New Mexico. I went to high school there.

[Hayden]

Awesome.

[Adam Thorne]

And we went down for a soccer tournament at the. They have like a military school down there. And the museum is kind of underwhelming, to be honest. They've got like a little bit of the story and then they show some pictures and news clippings. But it kind of runs out pretty quick. But when I went and this was back in like, 98. So it was a long time ago. It's probably changed a lot now. But they were two whole rooms of just pictures of crop circles.

[Hayden]

Oh.

[Adam Thorne]

And that was kind of like their most compelling finish to the idea of, like, what UFOs are and all the rest of it. And what was even more interesting for me is a lot of those circles were taken. Pictures were taken or showed up in the part of England that I was from. The West Country. Yeah.

[Hayden]

What are the chances of that?

[Adam Thorne]

Well, that's where they used to have a lot of sightings of those. I just thought that they were happening everywhere.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And they kind of have been, but they were really localized around this area. And some of them were so elaborate, so insanely like, massive spiral type things that it's like. Yeah, I could see, like one circle being made by a couple of guys, really dedicated. But when you've got a hundred overnight, no way.

[Hayden]

There's no way.

[Adam Thorne]

But what is the point of that?

[Hayden]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

What are you trying to tell us?

[Hayden]

So cryptic.

[Adam Thorne]

What's going on? Yeah, I mean, it clearly, if it's made by some either alien or UFO or a drone thing from the future or a distant, you know, galaxy, it's trying to tell us something.

[Hayden]

Oh, it has to be.

[Adam Thorne]

But it's not doing a very good job.

[Hayden]

No, it's not spelling it out directly.

[Adam Thorne]

Spell it out.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

If you're so advanced, our Alphabet is not that hard.

[Hayden]

No. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

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[Hayden]

And with the intelligence to travel across the universe, you could definitely learn how to speak our language.

[Adam Thorne]

You would imagine, right? So we've got a language.

[Hayden]

Yeah. So it's probably intentionally cryptic, which, I mean, makes sense. So we actually do the work. I mean, if we're just handed information that could be detrimental to our society, it could be our own undoing. So maybe that's the point. But still.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, either that or they just fucking with us.

[Hayden]

Yeah, that too.

[Adam Thorne]

They're like, let's just put an impossible code down there. Never figure out. See what they do.

[Hayden]

Right?

[Adam Thorne]

See what these little monkeys are up to. And Yeah, I mean, and then there's the whole thing of like the government involvement with it. All right, this is the crossover. This is where it gets dark.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Because there's a few potential possibilities. Right. One, no one's really seeing anything. It's glitches on radars and a bunch of people making mistakes. It's some government tech that's even. Not even that cool. You know, it just like looks odd.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And we can't figure it out. Or it is some sort of UFO thing that we know nothing about. Or it's shit we've built from reverse technology. And then the, the collusion part gets really dark because in like the Myth world of UFOs, you know that even Jesse was Talking about, like, we can summon them. We have, like, some sort of an alliance with them. They've left packages for us, little presents for us to kind of reverse engineer. I mean, that all seems really dark.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

I don't even know where to start with that.

[Hayden]

Yeah, neither do I. It's. There's so many different perspectives that you can take on each one of those topics that you mentioned. But, yeah, I think the curious one, since we were talking about with Roswell, with the idea that it's technology that they sort of gift to us to see if we can reverse engineer it or, you know, it's like if we gave Caveman the wheel to really just jumpstart civilization. At the beginning of the podcast, Jesse brought up something interesting, and I think Rogan kind of went into it as well. But the. About the Anunnaki. Do you know any of the story at all?

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, yeah. Like the sta. People.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

That type of thing.

[Hayden]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one's a really interesting one to kind of go along with this story that we're talking about. I forget what the hieroglyphs are called, but in a bunch of ancient civilizations, they all depict this winged creature. This bearded winged creature coming down holding this. It looks like a purse almost. And across cultures and across civilizations that are thousands of miles apart, they all share similar depictions of this being. And in the hieroglyphs, it almost looks like this purse that they are giving the civilizations is knowledge that they can use to build their civilizations, whether that's for farming crops, just the basic building blocks. So it could have been something that started with civilizations from thousands of years ago. And it's just been this continuous project to try to seed intelligence in these civilizations so they can grow at an accelerated rate. Right. So that's an interesting rabbit hole in itself.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. I mean, what would make sense there is if they. If these beings. Let's go. Just had so much experience with their own evolution and that of other civilizations growing, and then they realized, oh, most of these civilizations, even with intelligent brains, don't actually get very far.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

They just never really invent anything.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

I mean, think how long we were basically cave people for.

[Hayden]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

Long time. It takes something special for us to be like, oh, let's build a pyramid.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Or let's invent. You know, it's like, oh, we invented fire and we know how to hunt. We pretty much just have to stay alive now.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

But getting from that to a nuclear bomb.

[Hayden]

Yeah. There's thousands of barriers.

[Adam Thorne]

We probably needed a little Bit of help, right? Yeah.

[Hayden]

Yeah. Isn't that the whole idea? Is it the Fermi paradox that talks about or that are the Great Barrier Theory, that those. There's those technical. For innovation. There's these leaps that have to be made in order to get from, you know, creating fire to a nuclear bomb. So there's. That's the whole reason why they could be doing that is to try to get us over those barriers to maybe get out to the stars or who knows what the end goal looks like. But those barriers you kind of do need to push in order to find that innovation. Or else it would take thousands of years.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and it makes so much sense. I mean, just with our human civilization, when we met other tribes or other groups of people that would betrayed, we would obviously give them technologies they didn't have. Was super vital.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

It could immediately give, you know, people kings, like, unbelievable power over others.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And yeah. So, you know, this brings us to that idea. We've got the gifts. Maybe. Maybe now we bring in a Bob Lazar character. Right, Right. Super genius dude. Huge nerd.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Great guy.

[Hayden]

Great guy.

[Adam Thorne]

And, you know, he's working in area S4, which is like in. Or S4, in area 51. And, you know, a lot of the skeptics are being debunked there because more and more information proves that he was in the places that he says. Yeah, he's made some bold claims, of course.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Amazing.

[Hayden]

Right?

[Adam Thorne]

And, you know, he's put on this task to kind of. I think he was there to reverse engineer the propulsion system thing. Didn't get really anywhere with it. The last crew blew themselves up and then it's passed to someone else. And he's saying, well, the problem is with that is we. They compartmentalize everything so much. Can't work together. There's no teams. However, that makes a ton of sense. It's like you've got two problems here. One, you want to figure this out as fast as possible, bring in the smartest guys. Next problem. The more people that know, the quicker China gets.

[Hayden]

Exactly. Yeah. So it does make sense, but you can't have that collaboration to see the other insights. So definitely a challenge.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. It's almost like you keep needing to move the bar between collaboration and secrecy.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

Because it's like, hey, we either. They can't just sit on it and make no gains as well.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

Like, that's just as stupid as trying to let too many people know.

[Hayden]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Hayden]

It's a tricky balance, for sure.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, there's talk that other countries also have some. Like China has some Russia might. I'm pretty sure beyond that, America would have taken it. I know we've taken some stuff from Brazil. Supposedly, you know, we've gone down like.

[Zoe Saldana]

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[Hayden]

To what they could possibly be hiding. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

So what are they actually doing with this technology?

[Hayden]

That's the even scarier part to question.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Hayden]

Yeah. Because, like, they've been developing that technology for, what, three, four decades now, and we're just now getting AI out into the field. We have the B2 bomber, and we haven't made too many leaps since then. So imagine the technology that they have now. That one scares me.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. But I mean, I guess the idea would be, all right, we talk about the F35, F22 B2 bombers, all these other incredible pieces of technology that we have developed, and we've seen the slow progression, especially through the F series fighters, like how they've got better, but it kind of makes sense to also have this other line of vehicles that no one knows about at all that can probably carry out missions that no one will talk about.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

As long as they keep it on the DL.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

However they need to. And it's coming from an organization that is, like, really the best at keeping secrets.

[Hayden]

Yeah. Like that. And I still can't comprehend, like, I know Rogan was also expressing how he was. He was questioning how they could keep something like that under wraps for so long. But it does make sense to have technology like that really hidden. And what did he say it was like, two points above or the security clearance was two points above? The Manhattan Project, even.

[Adam Thorne]

Mm. So, I mean, it makes sense.

[Hayden]

Makes sense.

[Adam Thorne]

How else would you lock it down? Also, the Manhattan Project that he got leaked.

[Hayden]

That is true.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Someone managed to leak it.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

And again, it was because it was a race. They had to have too many people in there. They couldn't keep it under wraps.

[Hayden]

Of course. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And, you know, I guess the difference there is that imminent race was whoever made the bomb first was gonna win the war.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

With the UFO thing, it's like, I think they can assume everyone's struggling to figure this out.

[Hayden]

Yeah. Yeah. So they can take their time to really perfect it and make sure it's kept in that secrecy, because if anything leaks, then that power is unmatched.

[Adam Thorne]

What do you think would happen if they just did come out and say, yeah, we do have the craft? You know, it's always the biggest question of, like, you know, it's almost like the main reason that they give for why the government would not tell us. We'd all freak out and run around and scream. And I would.

[Hayden]

I would agree with the freaking out perspective because it's. It's one thing to have. Just let's say you're taking your classic flying saucer. This thing can levitate. It can move faster than the speed of sound. Like, that's already terrifying in itself with our. I mean, especially, like, with the. The world events going on nowadays. Having a craft like that, it changes war forever. But beyond that, I think that it inspires more fear into the institutions that we've used to construct society. At first, it goes like, okay, well, where did we get the technology for these crafts, then? That points to aliens or other life forms. And that's a whole issue in itself that destabilizes religion, which, you know, is already oppressing matter in the world today. And if you have something that says there is life elsewhere on the planets, then that undermines a lot of religions. So you're gonna have people really upset with that. And I think that's probably one of the biggest ones, is how it undermines our understanding of our history and civilization, and it warps our reality. So I think that would probably scare a lot of people.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Hayden]

What do you think?

[Adam Thorne]

Well, I think it would create a lot of conversations like this.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

A lot of people, you know, down the pub going, can you fucking believe that we have aliens? They're real. And we were making the ships. And then also the reality that tomorrow we need to go to work. We got to pay our bills.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

We got to clean up the trash. We got to take care of the kids. And I think stuff just keeps going.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And it doesn't shock us that much.

[Hayden]

No.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Hayden]

We're desensitized to it by now in.

[Adam Thorne]

The core arguments and philosophy, you know, philosophical debates of religion and the, you know, our kind of existential existence and all the rest of it. Yeah. That dialogue's gonna change.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

People are gonna be questioning things left and right, but for the everyday person, you'd be surprised how many people will be like, oh, really? Aliens? Okay, I'm gonna get back to my show.

[Hayden]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

Then we'll put on Love Island. Love on the Spectrum. Great show, by the way. Shout out. And what makes me think that, though, is I remember when the New York Times. I think it was the Times put out during COVID that the. The government acknowledges the UAPs exist. They don't know what they are. It was the Commander Fravor time where they started discussing it. When I saw that, I was like, oh, my God, this is gonna be people in the streets. Everyone's thinking. Almost nobody was barely. I got a few texts.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And life went on Mm goes unfortunately. Maybe if one crashed into the front of the White House, then that could.

[Hayden]

Be a big deal.

[Adam Thorne]

That could be interesting. What did you make about all this Thomas Townsend Brown anti gravity stuff?

[Hayden]

That one was fascinating and really interesting. One of the ideas that stuck with me is the idea about, I forget who he said quoted this, but at all times, 50% of our understanding of the universe is just wrong. So we have like physics right now with the problem being gravity and the standard model. How do we unify those? And having Townsend actually trying to break that and see gravity as it was. Two types of gravity, A and B of hills and wells and hills.

[Zoe Saldana]

That's it.

[Adam Thorne]

Wells.

[Hayden]

Yeah. Yeah. So really fascinating that this guy just kind of stumbled upon it without having to see the UFO technology. And then once they saw him doing this research and then he proved his experiment in a vacuum that took out all those other variables. Then he started getting taken away and all the experiments were much more hush hush and working in the same building as some of the most well renowned physicists. Something to that.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, there was that magazine from like the 50s.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Where they were discussing all this, which would make sense before the government decided to say, right, nobody talks about this anymore.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And that's basically physics that's taken away from everybody.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

It really does make you think, like, what? Yeah, like, holy shit.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

They found something so powerful, they were.

[Hayden]

Like, we don't discuss scrubbing it away. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

No one's allowed to even research this stuff.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

The only thing that messes up those theories is like, why, why don't random super smart university kids just come up with something like that?

[Hayden]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Adam Thorne]

You know, maybe they just immediately take them away too.

[Hayden]

Exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

That's like, you now work for us. You got to go.

[Hayden]

Yeah. They don't want them stumbling upon that. But they also got into that with like MIT and how they've had a dark history with when they discover technologies like that. And they also get the federal funding to have students do these research. So it's, it's probably the same thing. They get taken away and they're used to the secrecy by now, so they can just get under wraps much faster.

[Adam Thorne]

Which university was Bob Lazar connected to?

[Hayden]

Mit.

[Adam Thorne]

It was mit.

[Hayden]

It was mit. Yeah. And they tried to. They did get rid of him on all of their records for the longest time, which is, I mean, the power that they have to do that is also kind of scary. But then MIT did come back. I think they came back out saying that he did go there. And then some professors started recognizing him.

[Adam Thorne]

That's.

[Hayden]

Yeah, yeah. Thank God. I mean, that's some power. Yeah. Bob Lazar is one of the most fascinating characters in this case, especially since his story has remained so consistent over time. I mean, you don't see that with people who are lying. And I think that kind of adds the biggest credibility to his case. And we need that with something as complex and reality disrupting as this case. So he's really like our silver bullet in trying to see how deep this case goes and the implications that it could have for us in our future. So thank God for him.

[Adam Thorne]

I think it's important, you know, I mean, also when you say how it could shake up civilization, I think it would in terms of us looking at our past as well. I think people would start questioning things so heavily and no government wants that for their people. It's why they ban mushrooms.

[Hayden]

Yep, exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

It's because we would. Would look at the pyramids in a whole different light.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And we've already seen. I don't know if you listen to the guest that was on not so long ago on Rogan and he basically curates all the, you know, does all the research and takes care of everything that happens around the pyramids and has done for like 20, 30 years. And he's a massive gatekeeper. He controls the narrative.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

His whole story is, oh, it was just builders building it. Nothing else to it. Doesn't explore any other idea. It was honestly the most difficult and annoying Rogan podcast I've ever heard. And even Rogan said on a missions.

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[Adam Thorne]

See mintmobile.com an episode afterwards. That was the worst interview I've ever had.

[Hayden]

Makes sense because he has the answers to some of the craziest questions about ancient Egypt.

[Adam Thorne]

He knows what's going on, but he has a narrative to follow and he won't let anyone in to do it. And it's like, well wait a second, if we're finding these crashed ships, maybe there was an anti gravity exists. I mean that explains a lot of how you can move those blocks. I think we just look at everything differently when it comes to our pyramids.

[Hayden]

History would completely change and we'd see the ways that we've erased it in the past. He did bring up some. I was kind of curious to bring this, this is kind of a tangent, but yeah, yeah, at the end he brought up the structures under the pyramids. Have you heard about those at all?

[Adam Thorne]

Yes.

[Hayden]

Yeah, yeah, that one's crazy to me.

[Adam Thorne]

So they've used what, some kind of lidar?

[Hayden]

Yeah, it's a special type of LIDAR that can. It doesn't use seismic waves so it's not as disruptive. And that's a big thing with the Egypt area because they don't want to disrupt a lot of the structures out there.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Hayden]

So this time they could actually see kilometers under the earth and it revealed these massive structures.

[Adam Thorne]

Right. It's like, it's like spiral. Multiple spiral staircases on top of huge blocks.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

That are just. None of it makes any sense. The blocks look like they're granite.

[Hayden]

Yep.

[Adam Thorne]

Perfectly square. Madness.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And that guy poo pooed that. The, the previous Egyptian guy, I forget his name. I do apologize, but I forget but yeah, he poo pooed it instantly. Of course he was like, ah, that's nothing, don't worry about it.

[Hayden]

Yep. Didn't offer any explanations. They're not going to explore it. God, it's such a.

[Adam Thorne]

But here's the thing if it's there.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

This technology's only gonna get better.

[Hayden]

True.

[Adam Thorne]

I mean, give it 50 years and we'll probably have an app on our phone that can scan the ground.

[Hayden]

Exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

You know what I mean?

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

We just like point the camera and it just shows like an X ray of the whole ground. How are they gonna cover that up?

[Hayden]

Yep. Nope. Then it's. Everybody has a chance to see what's really going on.

[Adam Thorne]

I think some fun things are gonna start coming out.

[Hayden]

Yeah. Imagine like the Amazon that has all that thick foliage. Now we can see all of the civilizations that lie under there, so.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh d. We are finding so many too.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

It's so much bigger than we thought.

[Hayden]

Oh yeah. It's fascinating.

[Adam Thorne]

It's unbelievable.

[Hayden]

What a time to be alive and see what comes out of it.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, you know, let's just take that. Obviously we have no idea what that could be for true. But throw out a theory. Does it really build into the power plant idea?

[Hayden]

Yeah. See my. I. The way I see, like talking about the pyramids.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, yeah. With that structure underneath.

[Hayden]

Yeah. I personally would like to believe that the pyramids were more of a power structure. I mean, besides their like the divine ness of the buildings. I mean, you know how it's like perfectly facing north and there's a certain ratio that if you add up all the sides, it's like the perimeter of the pyramid is the same diameter of the Earth and it has like all of those divine principles and sacred geometry. But like, if you look at the pyramids, like especially the. Is it the Great Pyramid of Giza? Yeah. It doesn't have a tomb in it. Right. That's what they said the pyramids were for. Was.

[Adam Thorne]

Does not.

[Hayden]

Yeah. For the dead pharaohs. What it looks like is there you have the channels that go into it and then there's that central chamber, the.

[Adam Thorne]

I think they call it the king's chamber.

[Hayden]

King's chamber. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all around the pyramid there's evidence where water was seeped in. So you could. I can't speak on this to the level of expertise that's required for it, but to create energy in large amounts, there's like two physical principles. There's either explosions or implosions. And what they could have done with the water getting sucked into the pyramid is that it creates a vacuum in there. And there was another guest on Rogan who talked about this and his name is. I can't put my.

[Adam Thorne]

Was it that engineer guy?

[Hayden]

I think it was, yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

He was great.

[Hayden]

Yeah. But like, he. I think that's the most probable thing is that it was using that type of physics to create energy. And, you know, there's the whole, like, vibrations that they could have used with that. But it's. It's lost history and technology that we don't understand well. And especially in our classical understanding of physics and what we do for energy production right now, that's heavily gate kept. I mean, it's what Nikola Tesla was trying to do with his experiments, especially in Colorado Springs where he was trying to. To harness. I forget what level of the atmosphere it was, but it was using the same principles that Egyptians were using. And I think the biggest reason why that's gatekept is if you have energy that's free, you're disrupting a lot of the economics that we have with energy right now.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, it's the economy of the world.

[Hayden]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

The most money made at all is through the sale of energy.

[Hayden]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

So the gatekeepers for that. You think the oil companies want us to know how to build a pyramid that makes energy?

[Hayden]

Absolutely not.

[Adam Thorne]

Zero chance.

[Hayden]

No. Zero shot.

[Adam Thorne]

And they don't want us to discover it and they don't want us to figure any of that stuff out.

[Hayden]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

What gets me is what stuff were they powering now many thousands of years ago? I mean, right. It's so wild to think that, like, Julius Caesar is like, closer to us now than when the pyramids.

[Hayden]

Yeah. Even Cleopatra.

[Adam Thorne]

Like, that's crazy, dude.

[Hayden]

Wild.

[Adam Thorne]

Crazy.

[Hayden]

So we. There's so much that we don't know and what we're missing in that story.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Hayden]

What do you think they would be powering? Do you think it'd be like spacecrafts or.

[Adam Thorne]

I don't know. I mean, okay, so there's pyramids all over the world.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

That people have talked about their position being, like, somehow weirdly connected.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

So it could have been a combination of things. Communication, who knows? Let's get wild. Maybe teleportation.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

You know, maybe it had like, incredible amount of energy and it just wormholed you around the planet.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And. But yeah, I just. I can't even imagine what they would be pairing with it. They obviously needed a shitload of power.

[Hayden]

Right. To build something that massive. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

It's so fun.

[Hayden]

Yeah, it's so fun.

[Adam Thorne]

So fun. No wonder. No wonder someone like Jesse, like, he makes his whole job from this.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Like, I guess my whole job is this, which is talking about it. I don't have to do any research, but if somebody was to throw me into a 40 hour a week career. And they were like, right, you get to pick whatever the heck you want to do and we fund it. I'm like, I'm looking for UFOs.

[Hayden]

Oh, for sure.

[Adam Thorne]

That's number one.

[Hayden]

Yeah. You can take that so far and it's fascinating.

[Adam Thorne]

Just go for it. They talked a little bit about like the amnesty of UFO programs. Like that idea of, you know, even the US kind of talking about it. If they have been reverse engineering it, if they have been giving it to Lockheed or whoever. Like.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

Just from like a legality and business standpoint.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

That's a huge kind of level of fraud and corruption. Of course. However, I would think that that argument with me doesn't hold up. I mean, I'm not a lawyer. I don't know how that would work, but I think if there was an exception for anything. Aliens?

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

It's like, what did you expect us to do? We weren't talking about like stealing some information from another company. It's like we found aliens. Did you want us to tell everybody? Yeah, like maybe there is like that. There is a bit of forgiveness possible there.

[Hayden]

I would hope so. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

But it is, it's kind of an interesting thought process too. Is like another reason why it would have stayed secret and you know, I guess it would suck for a defense contractor that didn't get that information.

[Hayden]

Oh, they'd be a little butthurt.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, you're immediately out of business.

[Hayden]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Hayden]

Yeah. Especially with how it works nowadays.

[Adam Thorne]

What did you think about the, the AI discussion? And when Joe, he asked a brilliant question, without all of these guys that have worked on, you know, that know about the alien stuff, seen the hieroglyphics, like all these different pieces. Has there ever been a discussion around AI?

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And when he said no, that's really interesting to me.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Because it seems like if you can build that shit, you definitely have AI.

[Hayden]

Oh, by that point. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And what is it doing?

[Hayden]

Yeah, I thought along with that point, I thought it was interesting how they talked about the evolution with AI of the grays, how people have theorized that like, you know, as we become more domesticated, we kind of could come to that state of the grays, like, you know, skinnier appendages, the wider eyes, loss of melanin in our skin. So I think like it would make sense for your classic like aliens that they had this technology and it caused them to be domesticated like that and formed like that. But it is an interesting point. Why has AI been kept out of this conversation for so long. I mean, in the Roswell crash or I don't know if it was the Roswell crash, but they noticed there was a lack of controls in the actual saucers. And that would make sense if you're using AI is it's just already programmed in there.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Hayden]

And you would need that to do intergalactic travel for all those complex calculations on the dot and on the fly. I can't even imagine what their AI looks like at that point either.

[Adam Thorne]

I mean, it could just be simply that back in 1945, which is that. When was Roswell? 48.

[Hayden]

48.

[Adam Thorne]

I think back then they would have no concept of what AI was even if they turned the machine on. They'd just be like, well, that's a really smart computer. So maybe it stayed out of the narrative because they.

[Hayden]

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[Adam Thorne]

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[Hayden]

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[Hayden]

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[Hayden]

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[Adam Thorne]

C. Mint mobile.com would have given it a different name. True, but it is interesting how it hasn't really popped back in. But yeah, there would be like AI interfaces for sure.

[Hayden]

For sure.

[Adam Thorne]

If not, maybe the Grays are actually a biological drone. AI, Right. So for whatever reason, they make it biological. Yeah, it kind of makes sense that whoever the quote unquote aliens are, they wouldn't send themselves anyway. These missions seem dangerous, especially if you can crash.

[Hayden]

Right?

[Adam Thorne]

So why wouldn't you send some sort of creature that you've created?

[Hayden]

Yeah, I think that makes sense.

[Adam Thorne]

Kind of does. I mean, we're Already looking. Elon wants to put send the first ships to Mars by 2027. Right. And he wants to send those Optimus spots up there.

[Hayden]

Oh really?

[Adam Thorne]

Which is wild. Which is exactly what you would do.

[Hayden]

Right? Exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

Why are we sending sense? Yeah. We don't need 10 dead astronauts day one.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

Send some robots.

[Hayden]

Yeah. You know, it's one idea that kind of got brought up when you were talking about the AI stuff with the crashes. When we think of like just the level of secrecy that was required for, you know, anti gravity and self propulsion or exotic forms of propulsion, obviously that technology should be gape kept pretty heavily. But what if they did stumble upon some form of exotic artificial intelligence or generated intelligence as well? What if they somehow figured out how to activate those boxes and then get that information from computers? Like that would be a black project that would warrant that insane level of secrecy. Because you're talking about something that has possibly had thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years to have been perfected to gain the secrets of the universe. I could see that being something that is much more gatekept than the actual propulsion. And maybe another reason why it's so secretive. Yeah, that could be. I don't even want to think about that one.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, you know that they say that the President isn't really the most powerful guy and that seems pretty clear that someone else or some other group that doesn't get elected, that doesn't get switched out, that is just in that power and kind of really can veto everything that the President or anyone is doing exists.

[Hayden]

Yeah, I would agree.

[Adam Thorne]

And it's, I really think, very plausible. I mean, who's keeping the, you know, they're not telling Trump about this UFO stuff. Obama doesn't know. So that means there's clearances higher than what the President has held by some people.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Now let's go one step further on that conspiracy theory.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Back to what you're saying. They found this AI.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Back in the 50s and it. They've literally just put it into a position of running everything.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

So even though our societies are flawed, we make mistakes, we still go to war.

[Hayden]

Right.

[Adam Thorne]

You know, you know, the cities have issues and there's disparities and maybe it's all part of the AIs they basically just punched in. How do we become the most powerful country in the world, maintain it and also, I don't know, funnel all the wealth to our families. And they go, this is what you need to do. You got to destabilize shit. You got to do this and this. And every now and again, switch out a guy that you pretend is in charge. Right. Just so everyone feels like they have.

[Hayden]

A bit of things. Right? Yeah. The things are under control when in reality they're not.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Hayden]

Yeah. Oh, God, that is.

[Adam Thorne]

That make for a good movie?

[Hayden]

Oh, for sure.

[Adam Thorne]

We're back to the Matrix.

[Hayden]

Back to the Matrix. Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Back to the Matrix. I need to watch the Matrix.

[Hayden]

Yes, I am.

[Adam Thorne]

It holds up. I love it so much. Yeah. So There we go. AI, we got UAPs. We still, though, with all of these conversations, don't have anything tangible to take away.

[Hayden]

Nothing we can grasp.

[Adam Thorne]

It just gets us excited for a bit. And like I said, we're gonna go back to work tomorrow.

[Hayden]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And it's all the same, right. What do you think it's gonna take for you to be completely convinced?

[Hayden]

Oh, man. I think the argument just kind of always is like, I want to see it with my own two eyes and see it like flying around.

[Adam Thorne]

But then you just become one of those quote unquote crazy people that have seen a UFO or got abducted.

[Hayden]

Yeah. If we're talking about like even trying to convince everybody, maybe just like when the technology's released or. I mean, like nowadays everything is so falsifiable with AI or not falsifiable, but like with VEO3, making these art generated videos that look damn near like reality.

[Adam Thorne]

They're so close.

[Hayden]

Yeah. We've lost like the one art form. I mean, videos were already prone to photoshopping and cgi, but now we're at a point where it's indistinguishable. So we're losing the tools that allow us to properly show evidence. And I wouldn't believe shit. No.

[Adam Thorne]

If somebody showed me a photo, they're like finally released high def up close pictures of UFOs. I'd be like, that they could have faked this.

[Hayden]

Exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

Like, how are we going to know? We're not going to know.

[Hayden]

No. So it'd have to be like physically in person and seeing it.

[Adam Thorne]

It's almost like we got so good we can't verify anything anymore.

[Hayden]

That's even more horrifying than the UFOs. We're just losing touch with what reality is now.

[Adam Thorne]

There we go, folks. We've lost touch with reality at the end of this podcast. I hope you guys haven't check out this episode if you haven't seen it. It's fascinating. Jesse, whatever your last name is. Mitchells Michaels. Mikayla, we love you. Keep doing your work. We hope that you're back on soon and man, I say it every time, but I think we're getting. We're getting real close to getting some answers. Hey man, we're gonna find out. Thanks a lot for joining me today, Hagen, and we'll talk to you guys soon.

[Zoe Saldana]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[Adam Thorne]

Do you ever think about switching insurance.

[Zoe Saldana]

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