455 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Joe Pistone (Donnie Brasco)

Summary

Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast - Episode 455: Joe Pistone (Donnie Brasco) Summary

Release Date: July 11, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 455 of the Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast, hosts Adam Th and his friend Sean delve into the fascinating story of Joe Pistone, famously known by his undercover alias Donnie Brasco. This episode offers an in-depth analysis of Pistone's incredible journey infiltrating the mafia, the challenges he faced, and the lasting impact of his work both on organized crime and law enforcement.

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Overview of Joe Pistone's Undercover Operation

Joe Pistone, a retired FBI agent, embarked on a perilous mission between 1976 and 1981, posing as Donnie Brasco to infiltrate the mafia. Over five years, his deep cover led to over 100 convictions, showcasing the effectiveness and risks of long-term undercover work.

• Sean's Insight (02:15): Sean highlights the significance of Pistone's achievement, noting, "That's impressive," emphasizing the rarity and success of such an extensive operation.

• Operational Strategy (07:05): Pistone's approach was grounded in authenticity. He maintained his true personality, believing that "being oneself is crucial for survival in high-stakes environments." This strategy minimized the chances of slipping into his undercover persona, making him more believable to mob members.

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Challenges and Close Calls

Pistone's undercover journey was fraught with danger and unexpected challenges that tested his resolve and ingenuity.

• Maintaining Cover (09:30): The hosts discuss a pivotal moment where Pistone had to navigate a delicate situation in a traditional Japanese restaurant. To avoid exposing his hidden recorder, he fabricated a personal backstory, exhibiting quick thinking under pressure.

• Unexpected Encounters (31:06): Another close call involved Pistone encountering a lawyer familiar with his real identity. Quick reflexes and composure allowed him to defuse the situation, showcasing the constant dangers he faced.

• Ethical Boundaries (32:26): Pistone often found himself resisting participation in violent acts, such as contract killings, to maintain his ethical stance and credibility as an informant.

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Impact on Organized Crime and Law Enforcement

Pistone's successful infiltration had a profound effect on both the mafia and FBI strategies moving forward.

• Disruption of Mafia Operations (39:18): The hosts discuss how Pistone's work led to significant disruptions within the mafia, contributing to a decline in their influence, especially among younger generations, due to factors like drug addiction and informant presence.

• Shift in Crime Dynamics (40:00): The conversation transitions to modern organized crime, comparing traditional mafia activities to contemporary issues like drug cartels, noting changes in how these groups operate and exert influence.

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Personal Reflections and Character Insights

Throughout the episode, Adam Th and Sean offer personal reflections on Pistone's character and the psychological toll of his undercover work.

• Resilience and Adaptability (06:10): Sean praises Pistone as a "great storyteller" and a "well-spoken" individual, highlighting his ability to stay composed and adapt to the ever-changing dynamics of mob culture.

• Emotional Struggles (15:31): The discussion touches on the constant fear Pistone endured, living under the threat of being discovered or killed, illustrating the immense personal challenges faced by undercover agents.

• Ethical Integrity (34:09): Pistone's refusal to engage in excessive drinking or drug use is commended as a smart move to maintain his integrity and reliability within the mob, preventing potential slip-ups that could jeopardize his mission.

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Conclusion

Episode 455 provides a compelling exploration of Joe Pistone's undercover mission as Donnie Brasco, shedding light on the complexities and dangers of infiltrating organized crime. Adam Th and Sean effectively capture the essence of Pistone's experiences, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of his contributions to law enforcement and the enduring legacy of his work against the mafia.

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Note: This summary refrains from using direct quotes exceeding 70 characters to comply with copyright policies.

Transcript

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[Sean]

What a bizarre thing we've created now.

[Adam Th]

With your host, Adam Th. This might either be the worst podcast or the best one. One Go. Enjoy the show. Hey, folks, and welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review. This week we are reviewing Joe Pistone or Donnie Brasco. You may know him as Donnie Brasco.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Joined this week we got special guest Sean.

[Sean]

Hello.

[Adam Th]

Welcome back, Sean.

[Sean]

Thanks for having me.

[Adam Th]

Is this another example of a podcast that is cheery for you or did it get a bit scary?

[Sean]

No, it was good. Great.

[Adam Th]

And I understand that you watched Donnie Brasco yesterday.

[Sean]

I did, yeah. I watched the movie after because we listened to the podcast and they mentioned the movie and I had never heard of it. And then they were like Johnny Depp. And I was like, oh, that seems interesting.

[Adam Th]

When did that movie come out?

[Sean]

I don't know when it came out.

[Adam Th]

But it's like 97. I think something sometime in the.

[Sean]

I think in the 90s. Yeah, yeah, I think 97 is pretty accurate. But it's supposed to have taken place in like the late 70s, I think.

[Adam Th]

Dude, if there's like, good movies from the 90s that you've missed, you need to go back and watch them. Yeah, we made way better movies back then.

[Sean]

That's true. A lot of new stuff is dog shit nowadays.

[Adam Th]

Well, it's just cgi.

[Sean]

Also, that era of Johnny Depp is like the best.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Prime time. Prime time Johnny. Yeah.

[Sean]

Al Pacino was in that. He was a great actor in that. He was really good. There was some. There were some strong actors in that movie.

[Adam Th]

Oh, for sure.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I had never heard of the movie before, but really cool. And then obviously, like, after hearing his story on the podcast, I was like, all right, this is probably a decent movie to watch.

[Adam Th]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And it was really good.

[Adam Th]

If you ever watched the movie Untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery, I.

[Sean]

Think I've heard of it before.

[Adam Th]

That's a must see.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Go back. More gangster stuff in Chicago.

[Sean]

Nice.

[Adam Th]

It's awesome, dude.

[Sean]

I love the gangster movies.

[Adam Th]

It's one of the best of all time. So Joe. Joe Pistone. I like how his, his real name is just as kind of mob boss sounding.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Is the Donnie Brasco on Donnie's Cooler, though. Yeah, Joey Donnie. It's all up there. So he's a retired FBI agent who infiltrated mafia with the name Donnie Brasco from 1976-81. So five years deep cover leading to over 100 convictions.

[Sean]

That's impressive.

[Adam Th]

Very successful. Amazing that they didn't kill him afterwards or they didn't kill him during.

[Sean]

Yeah, I was impressed. I guess he still has like a half million dollar bounty on his head or something. At least that's what they said in the movie. And he like, at the end of the podcast too, Joe was like, do you ever, like, obviously it must have been scary after all this came out. You know, like, you must be worried about looking over your back all the time. And he was like, I kind of still do to this day. Which, I mean, I would be.

[Adam Th]

Yeah, yeah. But nothing's happened so far.

[Sean]

No.

[Adam Th]

And it seems. It would seem like a really lame gangster move at this point.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

It's like, don't you guys have other things to be dealing with?

[Sean]

You're going to go knock over some 85 year old dude who's not even in the game anymore.

[Adam Th]

It's like someone's. Someone's doing it for their grandfather. Yeah. Get over it, dude. Sorry you got busted. Anyway, they made a great movie. Obviously. Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp stayed in. In Good contact with him, which I think is awesome. He got pretty choked up talking about his wife.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

And his wife's last days and how much time Johnny spent with her. It says a lot about that, man.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

I mean, sure, it's easy to talk a lot of shit about these celebrities, and I think it's fun, and sometimes we should. But, you know, not all of them.

[Sean]

Are pieces of shit.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Give him credit. Where. And I think Johnny's. Johnny's one of those guys. Like we were saying. Keanu Reeves, one of those guys. I think there's some good deeds out there.

[Sean]

There are.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

There's a lot of. There's a lot of people who are not cool and are just kind of like surface level individuals who are in Hollywood. But those guys seem solid. And, yeah, everyone I've heard ever who knew about Johnny or worked with him has said nothing but nice things about him. So he seems like a really a good dude.

[Adam Th]

For sure. For sure.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Overall, what was your sense of this guy?

[Sean]

I mean, I thought he was cool, honestly. He was a great storyteller. We listened to the podcast in the car, and we were just like. We were super engaged because he talks a little slow sometimes, but everything he says is, like, really cool. And he'll, like, pause midway through the sentence. You're like, oh, I really. I can't wait to hear the end of this one, you know? So he was a really. He was a really good guest. And honestly, for someone who is 85, he was very well spoken. Like, he recalled all of the events and, you know, he was a good guest.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. And he had humble qualities about him, too, which was really cool.

[Sean]

Yeah. His overall philosophy about going undercover seemed like a really good one. He was talking about how he didn't really want to kill anybody or didn't want to do anything like that. His whole job was to do the undercover work. He made a point that he didn't want to arrest or be involved with any of the arrests of the people he was working with. He just wanted to inform on them and then, like, see them in court afterwards.

[Adam Th]

Right.

[Sean]

But, yeah, he had a very, like, go with the flow mentality as far as his undercover operations, at least.

[Adam Th]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And a lot of what he said was he was like, yeah, I just was myself. You know, I didn't try and play some act. I didn't try and be something other than myself. You know, I just kind of acted like myself. And he sounds like that was a big reason why he was so successful.

[Adam Th]

Because it's surprising to me, because it seemed like he had a kind of a tricky entry point because they basically staged him as an orphan who was a thief.

[Sean]

Pretty smart the way they did it though, honestly. Because being an orphan, they can't like go back and track his family or, you know, tie him to anyone back then.

[Adam Th]

It was a lot harder not have.

[Sean]

Any like leverage against him, you know.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. But also there's the issue of like, you know, well, who. Who have you stole with? And you know, I think they set up a few of those, but he didn't really have a big track record. A lot of him building rapport and gaining their trust was like on site, on job. Yeah, his made him very suspicious to them for some time, which that's quite nerve wracking, especially when you are guilty.

[Guest]

Oh yeah, right. Yeah.

[Sean]

And like in the movie too. Well, he explained it in the podcast, honestly, I think a little bit better than how they portrayed it in the movie. But, you know, they only have two hours to show it. But the way that he tried to like get into the mob was like pretty slow, honestly. Like he would just kind of show up, go to the bars and restaurants where these people were known to be, you know, show his face, know the bartender, and then over time, you know, they would like come in and ask him. And then like in the movie, they. He has like a ring that he bought from someone and then he goes to him because they know he's a jeweler. That was kind of like a thing. He's like, yeah, I'm Johnny the jeweler. And so he goes to him with the ring and he's like, what do you think of this? Blah, blah, blah. And he like tells him it's a fake and then he's like, what do you mean it's a fake? And then so they go to the dude who sold him the ring and then he finds out for himself that it's a fake. And that is kind of like a big moment of him earning trust with the guys. But I bet the actual story itself was a lot slower than that. Yeah, sit down, talk to him. A few words at first, you know.

[Adam Th]

That'S a very Hollywood version of how a story could go down. But I'm sure it is something like that.

[Sean]

I'm sure. Yeah, you just start showing some slowly over time. Just start.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

And you know, not seeming probably. Probably had a smart mannerism about him. Like, he didn't seem too like excited about getting involved with them, but it was just like, hey, they asked me along on this job. I Said I could do it, here I am type of thing.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

And I mean, even the fact that after all the years of being in, he almost got to the point of being a made man, which is fairly rare when it's not like family. I mean, that's a huge bit of like, nepotism and that's a massive promotion.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

In terms of these guys.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And it was crazy too, because.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Like he said in the movie too, or he said in the podcast. And then in the movie they show as well. Like when they go to them and say, hey, this guy is an FBI informant, at first they don't believe him. They're like, no way. No way. He's an FBI format. They, like think that they're trying to, like, set him up or something. But he was just, he was so good. They just didn't believe that he was an FBI informant.

[Adam Th]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Which is crazy.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

You would think that if you were suspicious enough like, or someone said that, it's like you don't even take the risk with them. You just go, oh, well, it came up, so we gotta just get rid of him.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But I guess at that point they like, you know, they saw him as like part of the family and didn't want to believe it or.

[Adam Th]

Sure. Yeah. A lot of that can be true too. For sure. You know, it's interesting. So he starts off as naval intelligence, did it for three years, then went to the FBI in Philadelphia handling bank robberies, gambling, stolen property. So that kind of gets him an idea of that world. First undercover role infiltrating at Jacksonville, Florida gambling house.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Getting in there.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Good bit of practice.

[Sean]

Florida's notorious for that kind of stuff. Is that right back in the day? And I think still, even now they have.

[Adam Th]

So that would have been the 70s then probably.

[Sean]

Yeah, even now. Like when I was growing up, I heard a lot about.

[Adam Th]

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[Sean]

Product analysis, they would have like offshore gambling rigs where I think it's legal. That's some legal loophole where, you know, as long as you're in international waters, you can gamble.

[Adam Th]

So they have these go out on boats.

[Sean]

Yeah, they have these boats and people go on there and then they, you know, take them out to where you can gamble and then they gamble and then come back and stuff like that. Yeah, I think they still do that nowadays. But yeah, I mean, gambling back then was notorious and I think at the time, that was when the like South Florida, Miami area was really kind of taken off as far as like people going there to vacation and there being a lot of money and stuff like that I think was really kind of kicking up back then. And yeah, I bet that there was a lot of people coming from New York or a lot of these big cities. Mob guys who saw it as potential places to work and make money.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. He talked briefly about they almost put him in charge of running the rackets in Vegas too. Yeah, I mean, that's a huge promotion. Like, that's a massive money scheme over there.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

And I mean, they. I don't know about this specific mob, but in general, like the mob had a huge hand in building Vegas.

[Adam Th]

Mm.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

And now the corporate mob runs it.

[Guest]

Yep.

[Adam Th]

They just probably kill less people or.

[Sean]

They do it more secretly.

[Adam Th]

It's just equally as correct.

[Sean]

Use drones now.

[Adam Th]

They drove up. Yeah. It's legal murder now.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

You just have to. Government do it. Yeah. So, you know, one thing I really liked about just kind of his breakdown and his stories is, you know, he obviously had like a fascination with the mob culture and mob life. And it wasn't so much that he was like playing a character like you said. I mean, his quote was, being oneself is crucial for survival in high stakes environments. Which makes sense because when you're very nervous, like it's hard then to act right. It's like, I've just gotta be me right now.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Because this is terrifying.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And if you're trying to play the Role of two characters. It's so easy to get caught up on yourself and accidentally slip up and stuff, but if you're just one dude all the time, you know, you don't have to change at all.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. And he also seemed like he did have a lot of luck on his side. Like, this is the hard thing about hearing his story. It's like, I don't think this encourages anyone to want to go do this, because even though it sounds exciting, it's like this, wow, secret agent, glamorous life. I mean, there were multiple stories that he told where he could have ended up dead.

[Sean]

Oh, yeah.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And I mean, he kind of knew that, too. Like, you know, him and Joe were talking about how it's a struggle with a lot of the undercover guys because they get in that life and then they either, you know, end up liking it or just get used to it or whatever it is. But for him, it was just a. It was just his job, and he was really able to kind of separate himself. But he said, like, you know, it's not worth it. You know, every day you wake up and you're like, shit, am I going to get whacked today? Am I going to get caught by the cops today? Like, just that fear every day, waking up having that over your shoulders was. He did not like that. And understandable. I mean, yeah, that's. That's not a very peaceful way to.

[Adam Th]

Live, but, you know, but I think that probably actually fit that lifestyle, because I'm sure a lot of those mob guys felt like that anyway.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean]

And they had grown up kind of being that way. And that was one of the things that he said, too, is, like, he didn't necessarily grow up in, like, a crime, like, in the scene himself, but he was around it. He understood the way, like, the streets work, and he had a pretty good intuitive sense of, like, the culture of things and, you know, like, the respect and etiquette and stuff like that.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. I mean, you would have to, like, he talked about it with that one guy was talking shit to him. They went to a restaurant. The guy was, I think, not a made man, but he was super rude to the waitress. And Donnie, Joe called him out on it, was like, hey, chill out. She's doing her best. And there was a lot of yelling back and forth. And he knew he had to fight him.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Because otherwise they would think he's soft. So there's, like, knowing those points of etiquette.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Or he said one time, too, they were. I think they were in this was after like the whole story of the movie. Like his later days, but I guess, same kind of thing. He was in a restaurant environment or something and the dude just kept interrupting him. And so he's like, hey, how come the beginning of your sentences always start in the middle of mine? And like called him out on it, but it was like, yeah, he's like, yeah, I'm a mob guy. Like, I can't just let him walk over me like that.

[Adam Th]

Sure.

[Sean]

It would have been out of character to allow that.

[Adam Th]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So he called him out and like, you know, the guy was okay with it. He was like, I'm sorry, you know, my bad. But it's like those kinds of things, you know.

[Adam Th]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You gotta stay to the character.

[Adam Th]

It makes. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, they want to see that type of strength in leadership.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

If you don't have it, they'd be like, well, wait a second, this doesn't line up with being that guy. In the same way is when the made man that he kind of fell out with, he basically had to let him kick his ass.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

And he couldn't fight back. Because you don't, you don't fuck with made men.

[Sean]

No.

[Adam Th]

Now if Goodfellas has taught me anything. Yeah, you don't do that. Which is such a wild thing. Like just the whole culture of it. And it's, it's so interesting because it seemed like it was unstoppable. They were so infiltrated into politics and the world at large. And somehow over the years, I mean, like, he's saying they still exist, but in a completely different way. And I'm sure there's people out there still involved in this type of activity, but nowhere the control that they had. They were really running things for a long time. Yeah, that's a scary organization to fall out with.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sean]

And it was all kind of self regulating in a way. You know, it was just kind of up to the code of ethics as things. And you know, like, guys would. Obviously they wanted to keep making money and you know, sometimes they got greedy. But it was all, you know, it was just a business and they were just continuing the way the business went. Yeah. It would be interesting. I would be interesting to learn more about how all of that kind of stuff fell apart, at least in like the mainstream side of things. I mean, I'm sure there's still crime activities that go behind. Go on behind closed doors, but like the public eye of seeing that, you know, like all these mob guys being out in public and, you know, all that stuff. I wonder how that kind of fell apart. Yeah, I mean, you know, story.

[Adam Th]

Who knows? Maybe it was like how they really dealt with the gangs in la, you know, the Bloods and the Crips and their stronghold over these different streets and environments. I mean, that was going on pretty heavily into the 90s.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

So that's only fairly recently that they've been able to put pressure and disband and break it all up. I mean, yeah, these things are fairly recent.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Been happening in that way. Let's talk about some of the characters in there. Great names. Lefty.

[Sean]

Lefty.

[Adam Th]

Sonny Black.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

And then who's the other one? Tony Mira. He was a bit volatile to sound it.

[Sean]

Yeah, but.

[Adam Th]

But scary. Dude, do you think that. I mean, look, I think it's only natural if you're kind of working and hanging with these people for a long time, especially in this kind of, in a way intimate environment, like you're doing a very specific thing. Everyone's on their game. Like, you know, do you think that he became close to them in a sense to kind of potentially feel bad when they got taken down? Maybe not Tony. I think he knew Tony was insane.

[Sean]

But, yeah, I don't know. I. That's a good question because you have to imagine working with these guys for years. You have to, like, develop some sort of a relationship, even if it's based on, like, you know, I'm playing a character or whatever. You know, hang out with them all the time, for sure. Them. Like he was saying, yeah, you know, you'd shoot the. And with each other and, you know, you kind of develop a bond. But yeah, I wonder how that was, especially towards the end. Because, like, you have to know, like.

[Adam Th]

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[Sean]

If this, you know, worst case scenario, all these guys get whacked, or, you know, best case scenario, they're in jail. But, like, you know, still, you're. You're not. That relationship is over.

[Adam Th]

Yeah.

[Guest]

You know. Yeah.

[Sean]

I wonder. That must have been tough.

[Adam Th]

I think on the flip side, too, and I think Tony. Tony was the guy that he. That Donnie always wanted to be an arm's length away from.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

He was like, that guy would just stab you for no reason at any point.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Like, imagine being around a person like that, that volatile. It's terrifying. That's not good. And also knowing the whole time, oh, I'm putting you away, bitch.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's going crazy for this.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And I wonder too, like, I. I would be interested. Like, you know, he's working with these people for years, and for the most part, he's just kind of doing his own thing. Like, yeah, he's reporting back and stuff like that. But you have to wonder, like, does he know about, like, what the plan is to, like, get them, like, taken. Like, you know, the whole boat incident. They hire. They have, like, an FBI boat that they do. Because they're trying to make this guy that down in Miami seem like he's like, you know, a big name or whatever. And so the FBI pays for this boat and all this stuff and like. Yeah, it's.

[Guest]

It.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's kind of crazy because you have to wonder, like, are they gonna figure out or like, you know.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

It's just wild. I'm sorry, I kind of lost my train of thought on that one. But.

[Adam Th]

No, but I. I mean, look, he would have known what to look for, like, how to. He knows how to build a case. That's really important.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Because if you weren't trained to know that, well, you might think certain things are a big deal and, oh, this is. We can prosecute them for this. And they're like, nah, that'll get thrown out. That's not important at all. We need to find out who they're talking to, who the next thing is, who the next big drug pile, where that's coming from. It's like, that the whole picture of the story needs to be put together. And I think that is where he was so he knew, and I, I. Did he say he just had, like, one handler, so, like, almost nobody knew.

[Sean]

You have just, like, one person that he would report to.

[Adam Th]

And through that, it's probably like, okay, this is what we need next. Yeah, this is what you need to focus on. We can't move forward without this piece of information youn know, the case is about 70% put together, so he's probably monitoring that as he goes, but mostly just doing his thing each day.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

You know, he has to just almost wait for the information to come to him while just being around it and hoping somehow he's involved.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Otherwise, if he's over there, ask like, hey, where did. Where did you guys get all this from?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Okay, Donnie. It's a little suspicious.

[Sean]

Well, and to, like, you got to play the character the whole time. Like, when they get arrested in Florida, like, he has to actually get arrested and, like, not be like, hey, guys, I'm an FBI agent. Like, blah, blah, blah, you know, like.

[Adam Th]

Which is kind of wild if you think about it, because if he just has the one handler, like, there's probably a bit going on in the back of his mind where they're like. Where he's like, maybe they just forget cut ties.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Maybe they're like, nah, we're not gonna mess with that.

[Sean]

Yeah. Like, at some point in his process of going to jail and stuff, like, it was there a point where he's like, oh, shit, if I don't mention it now, I'm actually gonna be in jail.

[Adam Th]

You know, like, they give him 10 years.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

He's like, all right, I'm going to give it six months, but somebody better be coming.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Th]

Then he just sounds like some lunatic in jail that's like, I'm an FBI informer.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Like, all right, all right, Donnie, sit down. Eat your Mac and cheese. Relax. Yeah, terrifying stuff.

[Sean]

Couple of close calls he had. I think they showed one in the movie that he didn't mention in the podcast. When they go to the. They go to the Japanese restaurant, and it's like a nice fancy one. And so they want you to, like, take off your shoes and, you know, do the traditional Japanese things. And. But he has his recorder and his boot, and so he can't take off his shoes. And he knows that, but none of the other guys do, obviously. And so he has to come up with an excuse of, like, why he won't take off his shoes.

[Adam Th]

My feet stink.

[Sean]

No, his excuse was. He was actually way worse than that. He was like, yeah, my dad dad was in like World War II and got killed in Okinawa or whatever. And so he just, like, doesn't like Japanese people and so he, like refuses to take them off. And then everybody else is like, all right, well, I guess we're keeping our shoes on. So they like go to put back their shoes on. And then the waiter dude, the Japanese guy, is like, obviously upset because he's like, come on, guys, this is a tradition. Like, blah, blah, blah. And then they're like, no, we're not doing it. And then he, like, keeps pushing them and then they like beat the shit out of him in the back of the room because they didn't want to take their shoes off. But it was like, dude, if he, if they made him take his shoes off, they would have clearly seen his tape recorder and he would have been fucked.

[Adam Th]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I don't know how accurate that is, but.

[Adam Th]

But talk about keeping it together.

[Sean]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Th]

You know, whether that was accurate or.

[Sean]

Not coming out, coming up with that on the spot is crazy.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. Whether that one, that particular story was accurate or not, again, it looks great for Hollywood movies, but I'm sure things similar. Oh, yeah, maybe less glamorous, but similar happened. And yeah, you got to. You got to be on your toes. I mean, this is also why he said he didn't wear a wire often.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

You know, it was only for like when they really needed.

[Sean]

Yeah, that.

[Adam Th]

And here's the thing, too. It's like back then they just kind of had to throw their. Potentially throw their agents to the wolves like that.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Because nowadays they would have just come in and, you know, done a service on the smoke detectors and just stuck a. A mic in there.

[Sean]

Or just use your phone.

[Adam Th]

Yeah, exactly. I don't think people wear wires anymore.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But probably not.

[Adam Th]

That's. That's a rough day. When you're wired up. You got to be 40 yourself.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

That's got to be nerve wracking.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. Would not like that at all. And you know, look, it's very unfortunate that person in that restaurant got beaten up, but better than Donnie being killed.

[Sean]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Th]

So sacrificed. And, you know, my heart goes out to that guy. He's a hero. He's a hero.

[Sean]

He doesn't even know American hero.

[Guest]

Yeah, right there.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. Real shame he has to pretend like his excuse was I have to pretend I'm a bit racist to get away with this.

[Sean]

To stay alive, he needed like a. Like a conclusive reason. Reason why he wasn't going to take his shoes off. And so I guess Playing with the mob guy's emotions. He was like, yeah, it's like out of. I, like, don't respect Japanese people or. Yeah, it was like some sort of pride. And then they were like, all right, we can get on board with this.

[Adam Th]

You know, that's right up.

[Sean]

All right. And then they back him up. So, yeah, it's just everyone against the poor Japanese guy.

[Guest]

But, yeah.

[Sean]

And, I mean, he. He said he had that other close call in the airport where they're, like, about to go to Miami, and some US Prosecutor comes up to him and is like, hey, Johnny. Like, using his real name. And. And then he has to clock him because he's like, I. I don't know what to do with this. So he clocks him and then he, like, walks off. Blah, blah, blah. The other dude, like, goes to the guy who's down. He's like, hey, don't this up. Like, we're doing some here. And then they ask him, like, why'd you clock that dude? And he was like, yeah, he's trying to touch my dick or something like that, Larry.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. Thank God that lawyer was smart enough to be like, oh, shit, I fucked up.

[Sean]

Yeah, I fucked up.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. I mean, that seems like a sloppy move, though, because if he knew the type of work that he was in as well, I mean, you know, you think a lawyer is a bit more switched on than that?

[Sean]

No. I mean, I don't know.

[Guest]

It.

[Adam Th]

Yeah, because I guess it depends how they met.

[Sean]

He could have even not even known that the dude wasn't undercover. He could just know him from the FBI. Like, maybe sent him in court or something like that. You know, just not even. Because I. I bet, like, you know, you probably don't go around telling a lot of people, even in your own line of work, that you're an undercover guy. Like, the less people who know, probably the better, for your own sake.

[Adam Th]

That makes sense.

[Sean]

So. Yeah, I could totally see. I could totally see that happening.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. Close call, though, that one.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Do you think you would have thought of that?

[Sean]

Hell, no. I would have froze. Yeah, no, but in the movie, he, like, the. He's with the other dude who's like the special agent from Florida or whatever, and he. The other dude notices him. And then Donnie's like, I got.

[Adam Th]

Right.

[Sean]

I got this. He's like, relax, I got this. And then I guess he comes up with that in his head. Works really well, though.

[Adam Th]

Yeah, not bad. Another thing that he kind of went over was like, you know, it was like, the constant threats of that Lifestyle, like he had to refuse a contract kill.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Because he had to stay ethical. Also, I don't think that you get kind of pardoned for that either, whether you're undercover or not. I'm pretty sure you don't get to kill people.

[Sean]

No. So. Yeah, that one's tough too. You know, you're an undercover guy, you're making it pretty good with the mob. And then they're like, hey, can you go knock this guy?

[Adam Th]

Saying that though, he was a thief, right. He was the. He. He could do the safes and break into places. I mean, does everyone have to be a killer? I think even they would understand. Look, some people, like, sure, you're fight, you back everyone up. But yeah, you know, straight up.

[Sean]

I think in those scenarios, a lot of it is like a trust building exercise. You know, it's like, hey, if you want to. You want to become a maid guy, you know, you want to be in with us, you got to earn your stripes and go whack a couple dudes.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. It's probably a really effective way to find out if someone's an undercover cop.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

They're not likely to do it.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And I mean. Yeah, that's kind of the way that it unfortunately works a lot of times with gangs is like, you want to prove yourself, you got to go kill somebody.

[Adam Th]

What Joe did, ask him. You've probably seen some people get killed, right? And he was like, let's change the subject.

[Guest]

Yeah, he probably.

[Sean]

Well, in the movie. In the movie he does. I mean, there's like that one scene where there's like a shift in power or whatever, and guys are about to go in, they think they're going to get whacked, but then they end up whacking the other guys, blah, blah, blah. But I mean, he was. He was in the car for that. But he saw the aftermath, I guess, in the movie. But I mean. Yeah, you have to imagine. I mean, even like in five years.

[Adam Th]

He saw some shit.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean]

Even like just some dude, some fucking idiot walking down the street, you know, says something wrong to someone and you just like smack it and beat the shit out of him. Like, that surely must have happened a lot. Oh, yeah, see that? And then there's nothing you can do about it. You just gotta walk on laugh.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

They require you to pretend you enjoyed it somehow. Like, oh, God, this is rough. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, look, I think he did some really smart things. He said he didn't drink, maybe half a glass of wine. You know, people would give him some Grief about it. He's like, I just don't like it.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

You know, and to be fair, there's always been people like that just, like, not into it. And you don't. You don't really think about it. Like, it isn't that unusual to see. And especially refusing drugs, you know, like when he slapped that guy in Miami that was like, here, do some co. He's like, don't ever give me that shit.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

I mean, yeah, there are, you know, tough guys can do that too. And it's not so unusual, but it's a really smart move because that's a quick way to go off the rails, make some big mistakes.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Or just get sloppy, you know? Yeah, I could totally see that.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I think. And that was one of the things that he was saying that a lot of the undercover, young, undercover guys nowadays go wrong with is that they think that you need to do that to, like, gain their trust or, you know, be in with them. Is that you have to participate in drugs and alcohol and all that stuff as some way to, like, kind of prove yourself. But he's like, no, you just got to be yourself.

[Adam Th]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You know?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And I think it helped him, too, that he was never really an alcohol guy. He's never really into drugs at all. Like, I imagine if you're even someone who likes a drink every now and then, you know, like working with the mob, you just always around alcohol, and so it's probably pretty tough. But having, like a zero tolerance. No, I'm not interested. Is probably the best way to navigate that.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. And you know what? You can. You can nurse a beer or a whiskey like these. Even when you're around people drinking, unless it's the evening and you're like. You're getting on it. But if it's just, like, daytime stuff, you've just popped over to somewhere, Even if someone that you're with is likely to have four or five, like, they're a bigger drinker, and they're just, like, throwing them down, having fun. You can nurse a drink through most of that. Yeah, you really can. So there's a process to where it just doesn't look that unusual. You know, it's not like he's asking for na beers. He's, like, still having a sip.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Th]

People just don't even notice.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Like, they don't notice how slow it is. What was that bit where he said he had to go to court and he. It was on tape that he made some gesture about 44 nipples.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Th]

It's like, yeah, because like 22 women.

[Sean]

Somewhere there was some sign that said, like, yeah, it was like a strip club that said like 22 women or whatever it is. And so he made a joke, like 44 nipples. And then in court they're like, what the hell?

[Adam Th]

But I didn't get like, you're undercover.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Like, you got to watch every word. Like.

[Sean]

Well, I guess they were questioning his character at the time. But if that was the worst slip up he ever had in all of his years undercover, I think he did a pretty good.

[Adam Th]

I think so too.

[Sean]

1. One nipple joke I think we can forgive.

[Adam Th]

I think it's tough to be undercover flavor five years with a mob and also sound like you're at church.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Like, of course you're gonna say some wacky things. I think maybe what they were trying to figure out there is like, is he like encouraging them to break laws or like be more unethical? Who knows? In court stuff is always bullshit, dude. They pull out anything they can, like throw you off and make you feel uncomfortable. It's just kind of like, whatever. Yeah. So basically the wrap up to this is everyone starts to get arrested. He's testifying at the trials, leads to a lot of convictions. Then there's that half a million dollar hit contract out on him which even he said he's surprised would ever be paid because these, these mob guys aren't looking to pay their own money.

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[Sean]

Yeah, half a million's a lot, especially back then.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And I guess there was something with the FBI or someone in the government was like reaching out to the families and being like, hey, don't, don't do that one. You know, there was some sort of other discouragement because, you know, there's always.

[Adam Th]

A little bit of an agreement between the two.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

They're like, hey, you can do some of this, but not all of this.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Type of thing.

[Sean]

And I think too, I have to imagine that back in that days, like, you know, there's a difference between just like whacking some dude on the street who, you know, was either, you know, trying to stiff you or maybe disrespect you or whatever it is versus like going after a narc that's a pretty big escalation.

[Adam Th]

The FBI would be pissed.

[Sean]

Yeah, they would be very upset. And so you don't really. You don't really need them going after you.

[Adam Th]

It wasn't worth it.

[Sean]

But, yeah, he was like, ain't no way. No one's going to pay half a billion for that shit.

[Adam Th]

No, they're not doing it. Yeah. He said basically, the mob decline after this was like younger generations were less loyal due to drugs, informants, and eroded ties with law and politics. So they had a lot of people on their payroll before, and, you know, it just started to drop off. And the less of a hold you have, the harder it is to make the decisions. And something is connected to, like, the corporate world really having the bigger hold in those areas. And, you know, in a lot of ways, some of those corporations are kind of like the new. The new mob.

[Sean]

Boeing.

[Adam Th]

Mmm. Boeing.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Have you heard of all the whistleblowers they've knocked off?

[Adam Th]

Oh, yeah. That is hilarious. Allegedly.

[Sean]

Allegedly.

[Adam Th]

We can't afford a Boeing lawsuit.

[Sean]

Yeah, Go easy. Go easy.

[Adam Th]

I'm still. Still gonna be flying in that plane. Yeah. So that kind of, like, eroded it. Obviously. The holdover Vegas is like. I don't even know if, like, there's really any mob or much mob activity at all going on out there now.

[Sean]

Yeah, I'm not sure. Maybe a little bit, maybe.

[Adam Th]

I mean, look, wherever there's money, there might be a little bit.

[Sean]

Yeah, well, I mean, nowadays, if you think of, like, the, like, modern version of, like, the crime things, you know, you would think of like, the drugs coming out of South America and, like, the cartels and stuff like that. Like, that's kind of the best due example of that. I mean, obviously those things are in the United States making money, you know, selling drugs and things. But I. I don't. It's not the same.

[Adam Th]

You know, it's kind of like the cartel now.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Sean]

I think, like, maybe in their own countries, they have more of a stronghold over, like, politicians and stuff like that. And maybe they do in the US but it doesn't seem like it's nearly the same level of control as what those mob guys had back in, you know, back in the day. Like, I think I was listening to old Rogan episode where maybe Joey Diaz was talking about the mob or someone else, but they were saying, like, yeah, back in the day, like, they owned, like, 2% of Vegas. Like, any business or building, like, 2% of your income went to the mob.

[Adam Th]

No shit.

[Sean]

Like Every month.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Yeah.

[Sean]

That's significant, which is a lot.

[Adam Th]

Oh, yeah.

[Sean]

For Vegas.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But I don't think it's. I don't think it's nearly the same, surely. I mean, all of these big businesses would have wanted to cut ties just to save their own money and not have to worry about the. The threat. But I'm sure there's still some of that stuff going on.

[Adam Th]

Yeah. Maybe in a different way. You know, it's like the government steps in and they're like, we'll protect you, but it's going to cost you 2%. And also, you don't have a choice. You go to jail.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

You're like, ah, I see. I see what you're doing.

[Sean]

All right.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

I see what you're doing. But they just don't have, you know, Italian names anymore. They just work for the FBI.

[Sean]

Just John.

[Adam Th]

I mean, if you think about it, the FBI would have learned a lot from this.

[Sean]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Th]

You know, they're like, hey, we want to get some of that money, too. Everyone's after it.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Th]

Anyway, crazy stuff, crazy story. Wild guy. If you haven't seen the movie, go out and watch it. Donnie Brasco. It's excellent. Sean obviously liked it.

[Sean]

That's a good movie. The podcast was good, too.

[Adam Th]

We got to get him watching more 90s movies, get him up to date.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Some of the classics out there.

[Sean]

I have a list.

[Adam Th]

Unforgiven. And it. Really? Anything with Sean Connery?

[Sean]

Oh, yeah, he was great.

[Adam Th]

He's the best.

[Sean]

I love all the old Bond movies with him. He was the best. James Bond.

[Adam Th]

I think that's very true.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

You know, Daniel Craig was a close second.

[Sean]

Yeah, but he's good.

[Adam Th]

We'll see who they get next. They keep talking about really mixing it up.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Th]

Like, I don't know how Hollywood that's going to get, but. But we'll find out. But anyway, thanks for joining me, Sean, and for everybody listening episode. We will talk to you next time.

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