484 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Michael P. Masters

Summary

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Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast – Episode 484: Review of Michael P. Masters on JRE

Date: December 31, 2025
Hosts: Adam Thorne & Brandon
Featured JRE Guest: Dr. Michael P. Masters (original JRE episode)
Episode Theme: Deep dive and energetic breakdown of Michael P. Masters’ mind-bending theories on UFOs, alien disclosure, and—most provocatively—the notion that “aliens” may be time-traveling future humans.

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Overview

This episode is a fast-paced and enthusiastic review of Joe Rogan’s interview with Dr. Michael P. Masters, a biological anthropologist with a radical hypothesis: what we call “aliens” may actually be evolved humans from the future, visiting us via time travel. Adam and Brandon dissect the key themes, insights, and memorable moments from the JRE episode, discussing everything from scientific plausibility to government secrecy, hypnotic alien encounters, and the cultural snowball effect of disclosure. They highlight the impact this type of guest brings to Rogan’s rotation and reflect on both the wild fun and genuine depth of Masters’ approach.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Allure of UFO/Alien Episodes

• Adam and Brandon express their preference for UFO-centric guests compared to other JRE guest “streams” (comedians, politicians, philosophers).
  • Adam: "I think I could do a month solid of UFO." (01:32)
• They credit Joe Rogan with fueling public momentum on the topic, especially in the wake of the “Age of Disclosure” documentary.

2. Dr. Michael P. Masters: The Academic Who Resonates

• Both hosts rave about Masters’ blend of credibility, openness, and approachable delivery.
  • Adam: "He doesn't talk like a professor. He talks way more like a podcast or a TEDx guy—or like ASMR; just nice to listen to." (04:19)
  • Brandon: "He seemed kind of like a very intelligent stoner." (04:34)
• They note his courage in tackling taboo topics without concern for academic reputation.
  • Adam: "It doesn't sound like he's worried about being discredited at all...I think he's only built massive favor just by being that honest, throwing his ideas out." (04:53)

3. The Time Traveler Hypothesis

• Masters’ central premise: Many “aliens” may actually be time-traveling humans from our own future—evolved, possibly genderless and uniform, coming back due to issues like infertility.
  • Brandon: "Aliens are actually time-traveling humans...if he is right, if he is accurate, that, you know, Donald Trump has a time machine." (05:35)
• The concept raises mind-bending questions about causality and paradoxes.
  • Brandon: "You go back in time and you can just fuck around?" (10:35)

4. Technological and Biological Motivations

• Deep discussion around why “future humans” would need to come back—primarily reproductive struggles that can't be solved by futuristic tech alone.
  • Adam: "Wouldn't you think that they...could 3D print life forms if you're that advanced? What's this reproductive—can't you 3D—I don't know, DNA in the future?" (15:31)
• Brandon posits: "If humans can't reproduce in the future...the last resort seems to be, okay, let's go in the past to when we didn't have that problem and get a sperm sample." (16:26)

5. Physical Evidence: Hybrid Bodies & Ancient Artifacts

• Debate over the legitimacy and meaning of alleged alien/hybrid remains, particularly the “Peru aliens” and statues depicting possible human-alien encounters.
  • Adam: "The Peru aliens is a tricky one...either it's the most complicated papier-mâché mold ever put together for no reason and put in a cave, or it's actually a very strange creature mummy thing." (18:57)
• Discussion about statues and ancient carvings possibly representing these encounters or hybrids.

6. Deep Earth & Undersea Bases

• The idea of alien/future human bases under Earth’s oceans is explored, referencing the “Baltic Sea anomaly” and supposed underwater structures.
  • Brandon: "There could be all those things...that would be the best place to hide, it seems like." (28:29)

7. Joe Rogan’s Vivid Dream & Dream Contact

• A notable segment centers on Joe’s own “abduction” or “contact” dream, which he admits was more impactful than many psychedelic experiences.
  • Adam: "This dream is standing out to him...the most influential, most listened to human being that ever existed, which to be fair would be the person you need to go have a chat with." (32:58)
• Both hosts speculate on hypnosis as a tool to recover more detail (citing the historical Barney and Betty Hill case).
  • Brandon: "That tape...so haunting that we heard where he's like, I gotta get my gun...That's a liar. Doesn't say shit like that." (35:43)

8. Telepathy, “Information Insertion,” and Psychedelic Encounters

• Dr. Masters describes a “VIP” encounter at a conference, where information was telepathically “put in his brain” but remains inaccessible, paralleling other alien abduction reports.
  • Brandon: "The whole idea of him saying, they put information in my brain that I can't access. What the hell does that mean?" (40:40)
• The hosts wrestle with belief, ultimately acknowledging that the landscape of UFO discourse has become “common knowledge in this circle.”

9. Disclosure: The Snowball Effect

• They highlight the multiplying number of credible whistleblowers and high-profile signals, with a strong sense that something big is building.
  • Brandon: "When it comes to conspiracy theories, especially this one...what other one has this many whistleblowers?...It's like every day there's 10 new ones." (59:43)

10. Skepticism, Open-Mindedness, and Academic Bias

• Both balance excitement with a measured skepticism, acknowledging scientific and academic inertia that often resists paradigm-shifting evidence.
  • Adam: "Yes, we have archaeologists and yes we should listen to them...but there are also flaws...There are biases..." (54:35)
• Masters is admired as the kind of academic willing to “throw it all out on the table.”

11. Closing Highlights & Ratings

• The episode is lauded as an OG, top-tier classic—scoring a “9 out of 10” from both hosts, with the “10” reserved for truly earth-shattering events.
  • Brandon: "I can't go any lower than a nine...this can be topped. This is fantastic." (63:04)
  • Adam: "Think of the greatest movies you've ever watched...That's how interesting this conversation was." (64:00)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Adam, on Masters’ Style (04:19): "He talks way more like a podcast or TEDx guy...Like ASMR. It was just chill. He seemed kind of like a very intelligent stoner."
• Brandon, on Time-Traveling Aliens (05:35): "Aliens are actually time-traveling humans...if he is right...Donald Trump has a time machine."
• Adam, on Skepticism (54:35): "Yes, we have archaeologists and yes we should listen to them...but there are also flaws...There are biases...and everything needs to be looked at."
• Brandon, on Whistleblowers (59:43): "When it comes to conspiracy theories, especially this one...what other one has this many whistleblowers?...It's like every day there's 10 new ones."
• Adam, on Popularity of the Topic (44:30): "Bob Lazar on Rogan is the most watched and downloaded Rogan of all time...that's the most interesting shit of all time, potentially."
• Adam, on Open Mindedness & Fun (58:06): "It's always been fun, right? ...Now we're getting into an era where it's becoming really pretty legitimate..."
• Brandon, on Personal Rating (63:04): "I can't go any lower than a nine...I have to save the 10 for a special episode."

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Key Timestamps

• 01:32 – Introduction to Masters; love for UFO episodes on JRE
• 04:19 – Masters’ delivery style and credibility
• 05:35 – The time traveler hypothesis—aliens as evolved humans
• 10:35 – Time travel paradoxes
• 14:43 – 16:26 – Motivations for time travel and reproductive/species survival
• 18:57 – The Peru “alien body” and hybrid debate
• 28:29 – Deep ocean anomalies and possible bases
• 32:58 – 36:16 – Joe’s vivid dream, possible alien contact, and hypnosis
• 40:40 – Masters’ telepathic “information insertion” story
• 44:30 – Bob Lazar’s impact on the conversation
• 54:35 – Academic bias and the limits of historical knowledge
• 59:43 – Surge in whistleblowers and comparison to other conspiracies
• 63:04 – Episode rating and closing accolades

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is a high-energy, in-depth recap and riff on one of JRE’s most provocative forays into the current “age of disclosure.” Adam and Brandon balance wild speculation, genuine academic curiosity, and irreverent humor as they celebrate Michael P. Masters as exactly the kind of open-minded scientist they want to see in these discussions. The review not only contextualizes Masters’ ideas but also explores why the UFO phenomenon has reached such a cultural tipping point. Essential listening for any Rogan fan—especially those obsessed with all things UFO.

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Highly recommended episode, especially if you want to feel the excitement, skepticism, and mind-blown fun that define great Rogan reviews.

Transcript

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[Brandon]

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you. Perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's Walking Dead.

[Adam Thorne]

You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created. Now with your hosts, Adam Thorne.

[Brandon]

This might either be the worst podcast.

[Adam Thorne]

Or the best one. One go.

[Brandon]

Enjoy the show.

[Adam Thorne]

Hey guys and welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review. I am Adam and we have Brandon, Brandon, Brandon. Today we are reviewing Michael P. Masters, another UFO Alien Z type show. I can't get enough of these right now. Sometimes with Rogan he has like a stream of maybe comedians on or a stream of philosophers or a stream of who knows, politicians. And immediately within like four of them, I'm like, please no more. I just immediately start to get bored of kind of just not mixing it up in that variety. I think I could do a month solid of ufo. I don't know about you.

[Brandon]

Me too. There's Adam. There's only so many people who work for Peter Thiel and I feel like we're at the end of the line now and hearing these episodes, especially since the Age of Disclosure documentary is out, is just really great. And I feel like Joe is helping build the momentum here and create this snowball effect where I see in the future. A lot more people coming forward with interesting information. And like that interview we did last week, I believe. Yeah, yeah, that came out. I feel like people are becoming more comfortable to talk about this stuff. Michael even says, said that this concept of time travelers, of bats, aliens, are time traveling humans, you would have been thrown in a loony bit for having that, you know, idea. Now it's something where people are saying, you know what? You kind of do have a point. There are a lot of possibilities there, and I think that's a major breakthrough. I really do. I thought this episode was excellent. Everything about it I loved. I don't think there was one point where I felt like there was a dip. I was engaged the entire time. Just a banger episode. It felt like an OG Joe Rogan episode, which is fitting because you did the OG intro of this podcast. I feel like this is a golden episode.

[Adam Thorne]

I couldn't agree more.

[Brandon]

Absolutely killer.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, exactly. I couldn't agree more. It just seems. And also, how good was Masters on this? Like, I can't believe I haven't heard of this guy before. I could listen to that guy all day.

[Brandon]

He just social.

[Adam Thorne]

His. Yeah, I mean, smart, obviously. I mean, he's a professor, but he doesn't talk like that.

[Brandon]

He's.

[Adam Thorne]

He talks way more like a podcast or a TEDx guy, I mean, or.

[Brandon]

Like ASMR, you know, where it's like, oh, this is like, nice to listen to. Yeah, he was just chill. He seemed kind of like a very intelligent stoner.

[Adam Thorne]

Sure.

[Brandon]

It seems like the kind of voice that you would hear say the things coming out of his mouth. You know what I mean? It's someone you would smoke with in a circle who would tell you, you know, aliens are actually time traveling humans. And you're like, you know what? I'm two joints in. I believe you.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Brandon]

That's what it felt like.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, and what I love about what you're saying is, you know, he's. He works at a university, and there was a time, and there probably still is, but there was, you know, not that long ago, where even bringing up anything like this discredits you immediately. And the way he spoke through this entire podcast, it doesn't sound like he's worried about being discredited at all. And it doesn't sound like he's gonna be. I think he's only built massive favor just by being that honest, throwing his ideas out. I mean, he's. He's spitballing in every direction. He's open to anything. I love that.

[Brandon]

Me Too. Me too. It was nothing close to rambling. It really wasn't. Everything he said was really intelligent. He talked facts, anything with speculation behind it. He explored that side as well. Personally, I think this is just an insane concept that I really like thought of maybe a couple times. But aliens and everything surrounding the UFO movement right now is already such a handful where this concept just adds like 20 tons of weight onto everything we're talking about now. And to get into it a little bit with the Age of Disclosure documentary out now and then adding the context of this, I think it's. It's crazy because I think this is even more terrifying because the whole idea of the government back engineering UFOs and there's almost this space race in a sense of getting these UFOs now put that in the context that their time machines. What does that mean? Monkeys with time machines, apes with time machines. It's just crazy to think if he is right, if he is accurate, that, you know, Donald Trump has a time machine.

[Adam Thorne]

Right, Right.

[Brandon]

Seriously, like, what is this is really turning into Back to the Future too. Yeah, it really is.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, thank goodness. That was a great movie. But I mean, he's, look, what's different about this? And we were talking about it briefly before the podcast is, look, I always love that show Ancient Aliens. It was hilarious and wild and just wacky. And the people that they had on. What was the guy's name? Giovanni, whatever with the wacky hair, Something like that. Great guy. Okay, crazy. But at the end of the day, he had like a master's degree in nutrition or something and just also side hobby. Loved, you know, looking into aliens. So it was, in a way, it's easy to kind of discredit those kind of pseudo scientisty alien y explorer people. It's like, well, yeah, okay, you've got some neat ideas. I like your stories. You're very enthusiastic. But now we have biological anthropologists from Montana Technical University that are legit and people respect that. Have a three hour legit dissertation with Rogan about why this stuff is very, very real. And they are sure it is. I don't know how much more we would need to kind of add validity to this whole thing. It's like, how much more? And then back to the time traveling thing. That's a question I wanted to throw to you. Right. Let's forget for a second that Trump may have a fricking time traveling machine. That is something. But what do you think if you had to take a guess, are they coming from a long way away from different planets and they just can't, you know, traverse space. Or is it this kind of future human time traveling thing? I mean, they're all wacky if you think about it. They're all kind of crazy ideas. But this one is even more bananas and I'm kind of getting on board with it.

[Brandon]

I want to believe, you know, I'm not entirely sold, but at the same time, I'm not going to sit here and say it's impossible because it makes a lot of sense. Every point he made, I wasn't sitting there like, well, that's, I was thinking he kind of has a point. You know, it makes sense. It makes sense. That's what humans would look like. That's what they would evolve into. These genderless, skinny everything, everyone looks the same. Now he was saying that a possibility is that they come back in time because they're having issues with fertility, which is something we're already seeing now, which they talk about on the podcast. But my issue with this whole thing, which I wish they explored a little more, is the whole paradox effect of all this. And they mention it briefly, but you've heard of that whole thing where it's like if you go back in time, you shouldn't, you should never step on a butterfly.

[Adam Thorne]

Right?

[Brandon]

You know, and now apparently it's okay to come inside one. I don't, I don't get how there's no ripple effects and how this doesn't up any kind of timeline. Maybe I've seen too many time traveling movies, but I just don't see it as you go back in time and you can just fuck around.

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Yeah.

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[Brandon]

See mint mobile.com and you can just like be in a modded GTA server or you have a UFO and it's just like, I, I just, I. I can't see it being so, like, cut and dry of, oh, you just go back in time and now you're in the past and there's going to be no repercussions. You can abduct people and scar them for life, take their sperm or whatever and then bring it to the future. There's so much of that to me that doesn't sell me. But at the same time, it's like, how, how do you even approach a topic like that? I feel like we're not evolved enough to even like. Like. Michael was talking about the whole idea of how humans would eventually approach time travel. You know what I mean? When it comes to. Which is insane, what he was describing, where it's combining general relativity and special relativity and orienting light cones to the past and rotating them really fast. That's how he was saying that potentially how aliens went back into humans, went back in time. But it's just such an overload of information where I just have to put my hands up and say, we'll see what happens. That's how I feel about this whole thing.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, well, I mean, it puts us in a tough spot because it's like we just literally went from five years ago, this being only something that kooks followed that are just, you know, supposedly nuts, and it's all just bullshit and we've imagined it to. All of a sudden this seems like, oh, all those UFO people were right all along. And also there's time travel or interstellar space stuff going on, and it's been happening for hundreds of thousands of years. And within five years we have to be able to wrap our heads around it. Of course, we're not able to catch up. One question, though, with the time travel thing, did he talk about them being able or the idea of it being that they can go back into the future?

[Brandon]

I'm not sure if they touched on that. They might have, but I assumed it would just be the same thing they did before, where you just aim the light cones into the future, which is just even crazy. Saying, I think is the idea, is the idea.

[Adam Thorne]

Then you go back in time, make a change, and then you go forward and then you go into the forward future of the change that you made. So you don't really go back to where you came from, because they're obviously trying to change something. That would be the whole point of it, right?

[Brandon]

Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense that it would be a reproductive reason, because we're already seeing that now, like I was saying, because I don't see why else. You know, it's not like we live in a utopia right now. Yeah, but also, they were even talking about it in the episode where it's like, well, why don't they come back and just fix the environment, do all that? Well, it's like, well, maybe we're supposed to figure it out, but what's kind of the whole idea?

[Adam Thorne]

Wouldn't you think that they. I mean, we have 3D printers now. Can't they just 3D print life forms if you're that advanced? What's this reproductive. Can't you 3D? I don't know, DNA in the future?

[Brandon]

Yeah, but maybe that's. I don't. I don't know. Maybe they need something to go off of.

[Adam Thorne]

It's a good point.

[Brandon]

That's. That's. That's such a crazy topic to discuss. Like, there's so many layers to that. I think it's. It's like, yeah, you can create something from matter, I guess, but I feel like when it comes to, like, genetics and when it comes to reproductive, like. Like sperm, I don't know, Like. Like you can make a baby in a lab and we can kind of do that right now. Right, but you can't make, like, a sperm in a lab. How would that work?

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, like, it.

[Brandon]

It has to be like. Like, I. I feel like if humans can't reproduce in the future, that if they're having that problem, the last resort seems to be, okay, let's go in the past to when we didn't have that problem and, and get a sperm sample and duplicate it. Pretty much clone it, potentially. That's a path I see them taking.

[Adam Thorne]

It's.

[Brandon]

It seems like, like, you know, it's just. It's such. Such a crazy concept we're talking about.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, it's madness.

[Brandon]

This is fucking wild.

[Adam Thorne]

But here's the thing. We're here to review the episode so it's not you and me just spitballing these ideas because, yeah, they're crazy. We wouldn't think of it. This was laid out in front of us, and we have to sit there for three hours and try and make sense of what we've just heard to the best of our ability, or at least have some fun trying to do it. I was.

[Brandon]

That's what made this episode so great.

[Adam Thorne]

If. If they are super advanced and then all of a sudden cannot breed more, surely it would be way easier to just figure out a way to clone things or make some other life than it is to create a frickin time traveling machine and go back in time. I mean, it sounds like you are messing with all sorts of stuff when you start time traveling. Potentially.

[Brandon]

Apparently not.

[Adam Thorne]

We've seen these movies.

[Brandon]

It seems like it isn't. Oh, we've seen the movies. We've seen the movies. But it seems like you can just go in the past a monkey and then you're chilling like we're seeing statues and we can get into the whole alien body, which seems to be a hybrid.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh yeah, right. Let's talk about it. Peru.

[Brandon]

But it seems like it's okay. Like there's even statues of like that seems to be people having sex with beings who look weirdly alien with the elongated heads, big eyes, skinny bodies. It's just, I don't know, maybe it's aliens on spring break or something and they stole their parents time machine. Who knows? I don't know. That's what I'm saying. I don't know. And that's what makes this concept and this whole idea so much fun. Like just talking about.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, the Peru aliens is a tricky one because they've scanned them now, right. And it shows bones. And I mean it's very complicated inside. So either the metal plates, either it is the most complicated paper mache mold ever put together for no reason and put in a cave, or it's like actually a very strange creature mummy thing. And also here's the thing. If the governments around the world or the US has had aliens and alien technology for 80 years that we're trying to reverse engineer. And then some people in a Peruvian cave find these things. You would think that they would just go take them right away. So how did they let whoever has this, I assume a museum or some person, how do they let them just have it to scan it? Are they like getting lazy?

[Brandon]

It sounds like it does. But at the same time, maybe it's such a public record at this point where if anyone intervenes and takes it, no questions asked, it just looks extremely sketchy and at that point is like, okay, so it was definitely an alien then if the government intervenes. But I feel like the fact that it's just openly out there and especially with the whole thing that happened with all the fake alien bodies where, remember that where they were like we found an alien body and then it's like, oh, it's cake. No, it isn't. You know, it's all that. That happened where this seems like. Okay, this seems real, you know?

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. I mean, it's very unusual, for sure. Three fingers.

[Brandon]

Weren't there babies in it? Like fetuses?

[Adam Thorne]

I think so.

[Brandon]

Skeletons.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. The whole thing, dude. It's a lot going on.

[Brandon]

A lot.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And crazy, crazy stuff. I don't know what to think about that. I think if it is an alien, here's my guess, at this point, it's probably a hybrid because there's features on that thing that you can't manipulate. You can mess with your skull. Putting. I believe it was the rings in your neck. There's only so much you can morph when it comes to the human body.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Brandon]

But when it comes to that, that like, mummy. That carcass, you. There's a lot of that that it has to be like, done post death. I don't know. Or fake. Or they take a skull and build around it. But weren't there, like, really weird bone structures as well?

[Adam Thorne]

Well, it has three fingers.

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[Adam Thorne]

And it doesn't look like. It doesn't look like there's an amputation. It like looks, yeah, everything's intact with just three. And that's not very common. I don't think anything that we have on this planet is just like three fingers generally. And they're tiny, tiny little things too. So, yeah, they're the kind of things that would fit in a little spacecraft. It's like, okay, let's look deeper in that cave. Maybe there's a ship in there.

[Brandon]

Please. Well, how wild would that be? What about 26? Yeah, let's do it.

[Adam Thorne]

Let's get down there. What? So they were talking early on in the pod about Steven Spielberg, obviously. His movies, Encounters of the Third Kind, all these things. It seems like he's been. It seems like he's been a bit in the know because he's been kind of getting a lot of this stuff. Right. Do you think he's had some access to some. Like somebody has been telling him some things. I would love to have him on Rogan's podcast. I don't. I think if he knew some stuff, he got it because he wasn't going to talk about how he got it. So maybe he won't discuss it, but it seems like he knew some shit.

[Brandon]

It's tough. And it's funny you mentioned that because a lot of the comments and reception this episode got where people just being like, oh, I want Spielberg to be on so Bad. So Bad, which how great of an episode would that be? But I think it's kind of the whole Simpsons thing where everyone thinks the Simpsons predict the future because there's so many episodes where they're bound to get a few things right. I think it's the same thing with there's a million Alien movies out there where you will get some parallels. Also, at the same time makes sense that Spielberg would have looked at Alien encounters, especially the whole Barney and Betty Hill thing they discussed where a lot of that reflects the movie and it makes sense that he wanted to be accurate. So he looked into a lot of These encounters and people who were talking about being abducted and how they describe things and kind of just take all that, lay it out and be like, okay, let's just kind of morph all these encounters and all these recollections into to one. And that's going to be my alien show. My like, presence here. That would make sense. But at the same time, we've talked about Kubrick's ties to the government on this podcast. So at this point, if aliens are just future humans, I want to put it past it, honestly.

[Adam Thorne]

And it may be exactly what you're saying. It may just be that directors is legendary as Spielberg. And who was the guy that did, like Avatar and the Titanic?

[Brandon]

James Cameron.

[Adam Thorne]

Cameron, like those legendary kind of directors, maybe they're just so good at putting the image together through the way that they gather information and then. And then kind of create a storyboard that it just happens to be so close to, like what it ends up being like. That's how good they are. Like that. Yeah, you're right. There's a good chance of that. Who made that movie, the Abyss? You remember that one?

[Brandon]

Yes.

[Adam Thorne]

Under the water.

[Brandon]

Was that the same guy who did? It's Tarantino's buddy, right? Am I wrong there? Robert Rodriguez. Was that him? I think in a whole different movie, we shouldn't know.

[Adam Thorne]

That was James Cameron.

[Brandon]

James Cameron.

[Adam Thorne]

James Cameron did that.

[Brandon]

Robert.

[Adam Thorne]

And you know what I mean. The abyss. It's like, that was incredible. They talked a lot about under ocean civilizations and, you know, alien civilizations that could be down there hiding away because we wouldn't know. I. I have heard lots of times that we haven't explored. Like we know more about certain parts of space or the moon or whatever than what's under the ocean. I have heard this. Yet I've also seen those maps that they do where they just show kind of the terrain under the ocean in the Pacific, in the Atlantic and the cracks and the little mountains. And I'm like, oh, I guess we've scanned it all. That's actually not true. We haven't really done that. They've kind of bullshitted, supposedly, that mapping. We really don't know what's down there in most of the that area. We really have no clue. So there could be all those things that would be the best place to hide, it seems like. Unless you can just be invisible.

[Brandon]

Well, you have the Baltic Sea anomaly, which was just crazy. I've heard about it before, but it looks like a crashed ufo. If it's a human structure, what the hell is it doing down there, you know, then it goes under the category of what is humanity's timeline when it comes to civilization. Also at the same time they showed that like scan that looked like an underwater alien base off the coast of California, which was just insane. It like it has pillars, it has a flat roof to it. And then on top of that, and they don't touch about on this, on the the episode, but the weird laws surrounding Antarctica when it comes to exploring and how it would kind of make sense. Why not just set up camp in the place you're studying? We do that. Explorers and people who, you know, biologists will do that. When it comes to studying life, it makes sense for aliens or future humans to kind of set up camp and do some tests and studies here. So I wouldn't put it past anybody that there are alien bases on Earth. It makes a lot of sense that there would be.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, the Baltic Sea anomaly is like the wildest looking thing ever. I almost can't believe that it looks like that, even though there are tons of pictures of it.

[Brandon]

It looks so alien.

[Adam Thorne]

It's crazy. What? But is it metal or is it just rock?

[Brandon]

I don't think.

[Adam Thorne]

Surely you can just go down and hit it and just be like, oh, that's just rock. Then I wonder how deep it is.

[Brandon]

You would think someone would be like, well, there's potentially a fucking crashed UFO.

[Adam Thorne]

We should go check out.

[Brandon]

Let's like tie a, tie a rope to a GoPro, drop it in, send a drone.

[Adam Thorne]

Wild dude. Yeah, this is. Well, let's. Let's talk a little bit about. And they kind of covered this at the end, but I want to jump to this because I was just so blown away by it. Number one, Joe's vivid dream, which he talked about on a previous podcast. But it's really affected him. Okay. It's really hit him hard. Now, in the world of therapy, I know that there are people that do dream analysis, right? They take this very seriously. They kind of break down the meanings of things and a big part of their analysis. And, you know, it's very speculative. It's like relative as well. It's like just because you saw a scary thing or you saw a unicorn, it doesn't always mean the same thing for every person, that type of thing, right? It's like, what does it mean to you? But the. How vivid it is is very important and how impactful the dream is is also very important. Like these, these things are something these dreams analysis people really look at. It seems like this one hit Joe Hard. He's like, this is the most impactful and kind of like wild thing that has ever happened to him. And remember this is a guy that's had an incredible life with unbelievable access to just all kinds of like crazy experiences. Right? Plus his, all his DMT journeys. I mean it's not like he hasn't been out there in wackadoo land and this dream is standing out to him and it's been on his mind for some time and he, it seems like his interpretation of this is. And he's, he's kind of saying it, but he's trying not to be too. Alex Jones all in on this, but he's basically suggesting that they. And when I say they, the aliens, all the future human time travelers have made contact with him and that's how they chose to do it with the most influential, most listened to human being that ever existed. Which to be fair would be the person you need to go have a chat with. And they've touched bases and he's not really sure what to think about it.

[Brandon]

Yeah, it's quite a psychedelic experience on top of all that too.

[Adam Thorne]

That's too much pressure for me, dude. I'm glad I'm not in his shoes. Did you know you can opt out of winter with VRBO? Save up to 1500 dollars for booking a month long stay. When thousands of sunny homes are waiting for you, why subject yourself to the cold?

[Brandon]

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[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

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[Brandon]

See mint mobile.com Me neither. And it makes a lot of sense because recently has been coming forward with a lot of these people and talking about their encounters and their theories and age of disclosure. You know, I feel like he had a big role in that in terms of society's acceptance on Things like that. Now, what I would love to happen is on the podcast, for him to have a hypnotist on the show and make him relive that experience out loud. Now, the Barney and Betty Hill tape that we heard at the end of the podcast is exactly that, where these two people who were like, the first ever abductees who came forward about it. Yep. New Hampshire, New England, represent, right here on 90. Where was it? I think it was like, 95 south or something. But, yeah, they got abducted 1961. Crazy story. And they couldn't believe what first, like, interracial couple, too, which is crazy as well. So they're coming forward as an interracial couple and as alien abductees. How. How much pressure is that?

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

And how awkward that is because they're stuck with this experience that traumatized them. And they play a clip of a very extended meeting that they had with a hypnotist that hypnotized them and had them relive all the events. And they play a bit of it, which is so haunting that we heard where he's like, I gotta get my gun. I gotta get my gun. Which is. Geez. Like that. That's a liar. Doesn't say shit like that.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Brandon]

It seems so genuine. I would love for Joe to kind of get that treatment because he's saying. He's like, yeah, there's some parts of the dream, and he said in the past that there's some parts of the dream he's a little iffy on in terms of, like, exactly what happened. But I'd love him to, like, really go through this kind of treatment. I wonder if hypnotist can really do that with this situation.

[Adam Thorne]

I think they can. I mean, there's. There's a thing where.

[Brandon]

You know, I.

[Adam Thorne]

Don'T know if it's like, not everyone can get hypnotized, but the more suggestible you are, the better candidate you are for certain types of hypnosis, maybe for that sort of, you know, story. Regression hypnosis. Everybody has the potential for it. So maybe there's a chance. I think that that would be good, because Joe even did say. I think that my memory of this is really now just a recounting of me saying the memory. So he's starting to not be sure, you know, what the original picture is. Which, to be fair, is what happens is known to be what happens when you continually bring up an old memory. You're rewriting it every time. So it's. It does change.

[Brandon]

Yeah, I. I would love to Hear that? Because it's definitely notable. And there's a history of, of exactly this when it comes to aliens contact through dreams. You know, especially in the whole Barney and Betty Hill case that happened as well. After the incident, they were having crazy dreams very similar to what Joe had.

[Adam Thorne]

So if you think about it, if there was an access point where you could communicate with people via dreams, it would be the most effective process for doing it because you literally can enter however you want to in any form, in any way, applying any emotion to the individual or any circumstances, and make it as profound as you need to. And you know, even if, like, even if it seemed like an interrogation, when they move away from, or propaganda or pressure or whatever, when they move away from it, it's just a dream. So they just like, whoa, wait, was that real? Or what was that? And they just have to sit there dwelling on it, thinking about it. I mean, it's a pretty powerful way to kind of insert a message.

[Brandon]

Also. It seems like the way to do it.

[Adam Thorne]

But saying that, I mean, is that even more far fetched than fucking time travel? How do you get into someone's dreams? What kind of machine do you need for that?

[Brandon]

I don't know. And it seems like that's the thing, like when Michael was talking about, what was that? A dinner party?

[Adam Thorne]

That's right. That's the next thing.

[Brandon]

We have to get into that.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, that's the next one. So the UFO conference he went to and he was invited to and this woman that he kind of like loosely knew invited into like this VIP room, bar place. And during that interaction he was like talking to somebody else. And he was like, there was kind of some suggestic telepathic knowledge that was passed to him. And I mean, you know, really listen to the pod. Like I can't do the story justice of course, but it was just that it was mind bending nuts in a sense. And I'm not trying to discredit him. It's like the kind of thing that if somebody that you felt like was a little unstable was telling you, you would immediately dismiss it because it's so wacky coming from him. And he seemed very honest, very trustworthy, obviously highly educated and honestly the type of person that maybe some people would want to try and pass some knowledge to in some way. It's like, oh shit, are they doing this? Is this what they're doing?

[Brandon]

Yeah, he's the biggest name coming forward too with this kind of information and theory as well. So it makes a lot of sense. But the whole idea of him saying, they put information in my brain that I can't access. What the hell does that mean? Like, there's some really crazy psychedelic things happening here. I, I feel like I, I, you know, I don't.

[Drewski]

It's.

[Brandon]

If you were to ask me if I believe this, I couldn't answer you. I really couldn't because I, like, I don't know anymore.

[Adam Thorne]

It's impossible.

[Brandon]

Everything. I don't. I, I don't know anymore because I do believe that the government has been back engineering UFOs. Five years ago, I, I would have thought, yeah, I've read about it. But maybe, who knows? I don't know. But now I'm like, okay, it's happening, you know, I'm pretty confident that it's happening. And it seems like all these crazy things are starting to snowball. And all these crazy thoughts five years later, two years later are kind of like, yeah, it's kind of common knowledge now in this circle. So that kind of idea that that could happen, as well as past abductions and alien encounters, there's a lot of telepathy that happens and similar things. So it makes a lot of sense. It all tracks. And I am very excited for the future when it comes to stuff like this. And let's hope maybe at the Comedy Mothership, someone comes up to Joe and puts some shit in his brain, and it's like, yo, I'm an alien and good shit.

[Adam Thorne]

I mean, I would like to believe that if we do get real contact, the first Alien human podcast is the Joe Rogan Experience.

[Brandon]

Let's get Skinny Bob on the jre.

[Adam Thorne]

That would be great.

[Brandon]

I want to see it.

[Adam Thorne]

It'd be excellent. Imagine if it's a complete dud. He's, like, super boring, doesn't have any jokes.

[Brandon]

It's just him playing. How fucking funny would that be if he has an alien on? And it's just Joe talking about, like, gender politics and just shit the whole time. Like, the alien doesn't even get a word. He's like, have you, you know 50 Cent, right? You know 50 Cent.

[Adam Thorne]

Have you tried elk? Should try elk. Have you ever gone bow hunting? The guy's like, I'm here to tell, like, something important. He's like, you know what? You need to try New tropics.

[Brandon]

Like, I, I'm not sure what you guys do for hygiene, but have you tried an ice bath?

[Adam Thorne]

Seriously? He just gives him a kettlebell. They're like, wouldn't. No, we're not. This is not what we're doing here today.

[Brandon]

I'm looking at your form, dude. You need ankle weights. I don't know how to tell you.

[Adam Thorne]

This, but honestly, honestly, with all this stuff though, things change for me. After Bob Lazarus king on Rogan. Now Bob Lazar and Rogan is I believe the most watched and downloaded Rogan of all time. I'm pretty sure it's close to that. It might be. It might be an Elon one, maybe the first Elon one, but I'm pretty sure Bob Lazar is the most watched overall. I'd have to google it and check, but it's close. There's good reason for that and it's because that's the most interesting shit of all time, potentially. If it's real and it's starting to get very real, it's getting so close to that. I don't know what this means, guys.

[Mrs. Claus's Younger Sister]

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[Drewski]

Zoe. This thing weighs a ton.

[Adam Thorne]

Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man. Santa.

[Brandon]

Santa, did you get my letter?

[Drewski]

He's talking to you britches.

[Adam Thorne]

I not that.

[Mrs. Claus's Younger Sister]

Of course he did.

[Brandon]

Right?

[Adam Thorne]

Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list and elf.

[Drewski]

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[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

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[Adam Thorne]

See mint mobile.com in terms of. Do we bring Bob back on? Because I think once it gets to a point where it's very clear he was right and he's vindicated, that may clearly be the biggest Rogan podcast of all time. Bob Lazar, too, coming on with all the new information, everything he's had, totally vindicated and kind of just maybe even telling more of his story. Because a big thing of that podcast is there were certain things he didn't say, and he kind of implied that he would tell Joe off air. So Joe has more information. Well, could we get it? Because we all want it. We want to know.

[Brandon]

I think when it comes to the topics of aliens, alien technology, and general intentions between both sides, there's a lot more to uncover. I think there really is. And we're really starting to scrape the surface here. I think it were getting into a very deep iceberg, and I wouldn't be surprised if Joe's keeping them in the chamber. You think so? And wait for some more to come out. Because it seems like every couple weeks I learned something that's like, holy. And there's some real, like, citations behind it. There's some like, it's. It's not just some dude who works at Best Buy, you know, like, it's real. It's real information from real people. And I find that now that this is starting to snowball, maybe he wants that snowball to be a little bigger until he pulls trigger on that, because that's a big get. That's. That's gonna be a massive episode. And I feel like that's the episode where we talk about aliens on Earth, aliens potentially in the government. Who knows, right? Who knows? Yeah, but I think there's a lot more to uncover here, and I think he would be the great person to have on to blow the lid off of all this right when it's about to pop off.

[Adam Thorne]

I mean, that really is like the next big conversation is, okay, if we admit that they've come here, we've found their crafts, or they crashed it, we've reverse engineered them, we have some biological specimens that we've kept, and there's potentially even some interactions with our government or the military and these beings, then would there also not be some influence that they're having over us at some level? And where is that and what does that mean? I mean, this five years ago was some of the craziest stuff that you could even get talking about. I mean, it was one thing to be like, I think I saw a ufo, but if you start saying aliens are in the government and running it, I mean, that's so out there, you might as well be flat earth and chemtrails and all the rest of it. But it could be the next discussion after a real disclosure of like, yeah, we have the crafts, they've been here, we've been talking to him. It's like, well, you're talking to them. Why would they not be trying to influence some stuff? And why would we not believe that they wouldn't have quite a lot of influence over some things? Do we really think that they're just coming here and having a brief chat? I don't think so. I don't think you go through time in spacecraft to just be like, what up, guys? Check out this, look at this laser. I just give you this laser and I just disappear. No, I don't think so.

[Brandon]

Nope. I think there's so many subtopics to explore here. And for example, multiple alien species. That's something I do believe. Okay, so could this possibly mean it's humans from different eras? These ones are humans from a million years ago. These are humans from a hundred thousand years in the future. A million years in the future? Is that what we're talking about?

[Adam Thorne]

Right?

[Brandon]

And at the same time, it's like, okay, there's, there's the grays, there's the tall whites, apparently reptilians. What are their deal? What are their relationships? What is, what are the, the politics between them? There is so much, much to uncover here. There is so much not just in technology, but in terms of who these beings are. And I think the whole time traveler thing is interesting. Both could be right as well. There could be aliens and there could be future humans and maybe the, everyone's time traveling. So who knows ever. It could be all the above here potentially.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. I mean, but also the thing is, they're pretty sure that they. NASA this is pretty sure that they found some sort of microscopic kind of biological fossil remains. Life on Mars. Like it's dead, but it's like a fossil version of it. So that indicates good chance of life there. And what does that mean? Under the surface? There could be some liquid water there. There could be some life. And I guess the real question then is, you know, the big jump in evolution was going from single cellular organisms to multi. Multi is the complexity of us that can make things right. Otherwise you've Just got a universe full of bacteria and fungus and the rest of it. And maybe that leap is the part that's really rare. Maybe life is not that rare, but maybe the jump to multicellular is. If that's the case, then good chance that all of these different races are just different time traveling things from the this planet. However, if we start digging around, you know, and go to what's that Saturn moon that's like just all water.

[Brandon]

Oh yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Is it like.

[Brandon]

That's a good question.

[Adam Thorne]

Utopia or.

[Brandon]

No, I'm not sure I know what you're talking about though.

[Adam Thorne]

But it's like mostly water and ice.

[Brandon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

If we get there and they find you know, some squiggly jellyfish thing, my shit, COD something, then they're like oh, multicellular. Then it's like oh, they, they could be coming from everywhere, right? I mean the distances are a problem, but you know, if they can be zapping around our planet as quick as they can shoot around, it's like well they, maybe they can bend time and space and get over here real fast anyway. So they, they could be both things. They could be going through time and coming from wherever.

[Brandon]

How awesome is that? I think there's a lot of things in this life that we as humans just need to be way more open minded about. It's good to have concrete evidence and to always keep that in mind. But at the same time, what was it a few episodes ago we were talking about when they found. I, I'm not, I'm probably not going to get the exact numbers right Here in Russia they found like a wagon wheel in the stone. Oh yeah, that seemed to date back what, 4 million years ago.

[Adam Thorne]

Huh.

[Brandon]

Was that looks like a wagon wheel?

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Like how is that a natural rock formation? I think there's a lot of things about planet Earth and us human, humans and just humanity that we don't understand yet and we don't know about and we're slowly discovering fuck knows what happened on Mars for sure.

[Adam Thorne]

And you know, and the audacity of us to pretend that even dismissing that wheel and being like well that can't be that because we know everything that happened in the past, so it can't be a million year old wheel in a mine in Russia. It's like wait a second, what do we really know about the past? Who the heck was writing anything down then? Yes, we have archaeologists and yes we should listen to them because they are classically trained academics. They're the best version of what we have that are figuring things out but there are also flaws in the way that they put that information together. There are biases. You know, they like to put certain timelines together and therefore by doing that they will dismiss certain outliers of information. And everything needs to be looked at. At the end of the day, we just don't know. We did not write anything down then we have no idea. Our history is very short.

[Brandon]

Yeah. And history changes all the time. Like to your point about that, it's like I've studied this theory and I've made this theory. I've dedicated my whole life to it. My legacy is on average books about it. You know, I can't believe I know it's wrong now I can't admit that. I have to prove. I have to live by this theory. And that happens in science all the time. Legacies are behind it.

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[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

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[Adam Thorne]

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[Brandon]

Financial reasons where certain things that people discover that they become famous for get disproven and they do everything they can to bury that information. That happens all the time. In this case when it comes to God, UFOs, the history of human civilization. Yeah, there's an overlap there. So who knows? That's why you have to be open about this stuff. But at the same time you like, you have to, you have to always speculate that. Like with this topic alone, I, I see where a lot of the beliefs are and I understand where he's coming from. And I'm not saying I'm fully on board, but I. I'm kind of on the fence about this. I really am, and I think it's just a healthy way to look at things, especially like this, where just take everything with a grain of salt, because there are a million theories and opinions out there when it comes to the stuff, so who knows?

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. And look, it's always been fun, right? This is fun. Regardless. This is like a fun thought experiment. It's. It's exciting to get behind. It's made great TV shows and movies. Steven Spielberg, the X Files, you name it. It's like some of the best cool stuff that just gets the imagination going. And at the same time, now we're getting into an era where it's becoming really pretty legitimate, right? I wouldn't say it's all the way, like, absolutely. Without a shadow of a doubt, there it is. But it's. It's pretty damn close, dude. It's pretty damn close. Unless they just. I mean, I don't know what much more they would need to do to start really convince me. I mean, they could wheel out a ship and just be like, there it is. We're putting this in the Smithsonian. And I'd be like, oh, sick. There we go. But I think I would feel the same level of belief once I see it as I kind of do now. I'd be like, yeah, there it is. Like, I've heard enough to start believing. It's like, I didn't see that the Earth was round before I believed my teachers and other people that have clearly measured things that I am not capable of doing that have been like, yeah, it's a big, round thing. It's not flat. I was happy to believe that.

[Brandon]

Yeah, same. And when it comes to conspiracy theories, especially this one, which is a conspiracy theory, technically, what other one has this many whistleblowers?

[Adam Thorne]

Good point.

[Brandon]

This many. It's like every day there's 10 new ones. Yeah. And it's not just Reddit mods. It's not just some dude on his computer who said, I hacked the program and found Skinny Bob. No, it's like real people who have Wikipedia pages who. There's evidence that they served. There's evidence that they were involved with very classified information and duties. It makes sense. And a lot of these people are coming out and saying, well, there was a career risk before, but there's a lot more people now. Again, check out our interview with Kagan, because we get all into that.

[Adam Thorne]

You have to watch that one. If you haven't listened to that you have to listen to it.

[Brandon]

Yeah. And we. We get into the Age of Disclosure documentary and everything, but it's a lot of these topics we're talking about now, but with an actual whistleblower here. And it's just. I don't think there's any. Like, Like, Bigfoot. Come on. Like. Like the lock, this monster. Like, like the moon landing, 9, 11. Some of the biggest conspiracy theories. This, like, when you. When you really look at the statistics.

[Adam Thorne]

Here, this is the best one. If you.

[Brandon]

That has to say something. It really has to say something.

[Adam Thorne]

Dude, if they found a Bigfoot, it would be way lamer than literally the whole of all of these government officials being like, oh, yeah, by the way, aliens exist and we have their spaceships. That is the best one of all time. Fox Mulder from the X Files, if he was a real person, would be pulling his hair out right now. He would be so pumped.

[Brandon]

Yeah. Now they're all time travelers. Like, this is just getting better.

[Adam Thorne]

Why not? Why not throw it in there? We can literally believe anything at this point. It's like, you know, we get there, and I really think that Michael just kind of brought this to light in a. In a beautiful way. Like, I don't know what it was about his delivery and just kind of his attitude and. And just his intellect. He was just a cool guy that just really had a great way of setting the stage and giving his message and was open to whatever types of ideas. And it honestly just made me trust him as an academic. I'm like, they're the kind of academics I want to exist. You know, he didn't come in with biases. He wasn't trying to protect something. You know, he wasn't, you know, protecting the pyramids and saying things like, buy my book over and over again. He was straight up, just like, could be this, could be that. Also pretty sure an alien talked to me at a bar and put stuff in my mind. I'm not ashamed to admit it.

[Brandon]

I mean, I love how subjective he was.

[Adam Thorne]

That's a crazy thing to say on a podcast, dude.

[Brandon]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And Joe was all about it. He was like, oh, man, I like it. I don't know. I don't know what to say when it comes to ratings, but I've got a feeling we were about to get some high ratings.

[Brandon]

Give it to me. Oh, my God. When it comes to this episode, I can't go any lower than a nine. Yeah, I'm going with a nine. The thing is, you know, I have to save the 10 for a special episode.

[Adam Thorne]

You have to.

[Brandon]

I feel like they're like, this can be topped. This is fantastic. Yeah, but it can be top.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. We can't be given. Bubblers are too. We got to save a 10 for.

[Brandon]

But this is if Alex Jones comes on the podcast and gives birth to a gray alien. And then I'm like, well, I already said my 10. This isn't as good. That's it. You know, so nine. Solid. Nine. We're fantastic.

[Adam Thorne]

We're allowed to say my favorite podcast.

[Brandon]

We'Ve reviewed, in my opinion.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Brandon]

Since I've been a part of the show, my. The favorite episode I've watched.

[Adam Thorne]

This one's been fantastic. This is a nine plus for me. And. And if you are into this sort.

[Drewski]

Of.

[Adam Thorne]

Podcast, you know, if the UFO type stuff is like, why you listen to Rogan, I mean, this is. This is a. An absolute banger. You cannot miss this one. And, you know, I've listened to it twice. Like, I listened to the first one over a couple of days in the gym, and I went right back to the beginning, did it again, and it was just as good. And, you know, think of the greatest movies you've ever watched. I can't think of one that I immediately turned on again and watched the whole movie. You know what I mean? It's like, that's how interesting this conversation was. I was like, I think I have to listen to this again. I was all about it, dude. Fantastic. Loved it. All right, well, check it out. And, yeah, good stuff. I'm really pumped on this amazing episode. Thank you guys so much for bearing with us while we get really pumped and excited about UFOs once again, hopefully there's more in the New Year's. And I think that what Joe is doing by having these people are. Not only is he this excited about this particular topic, which he has been since, you know, the beginning of the Rogan. I think he's trying to force the issue. I think he's trying to make it so undeniable that the powers that be are like, oh, shit, we've just got to just say it now. I think that's what he's potentially starting to use a portion of his platform for, which is wild. And why not?

[Brandon]

Why not, why not? And I think when that dam breaks and the truth gets out, let's have our future selves on the podcast. I think that'd be a lot of fun.

[Adam Thorne]

I love. Yeah, just go back in time. I love it. All right, guys, thank you so much. We will talk to you next time. And Peace and love. Happy New Year.

[Brandon]

Happy New Year. See ya.

[Mrs. Claus's Younger Sister]

Guys. Thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree, Zoe.

[Drewski]

This thing weighs a ton.

[Adam Thorne]

Drew, ski lift with your legs, man. Santa.

[Brandon]

Santa, did you.

[Adam Thorne]

Did you get my letter?

[Drewski]

He's talking to you, Bridges.

[Adam Thorne]

I'm not that.

[Mrs. Claus's Younger Sister]

Of course he did. Right, Santa?

[Brandon]

You know my elf Drewski here. He handles the nice list.

[Adam Thorne]

And elf.

[Drewski]

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[Brandon]

Nice.

[Drewski]

My side of the tree is slipping.

[Adam Thorne]

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