516 JRE Review of Michael Pollan

Summary

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Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast

Episode 516: JRE Review of Michael Pollan
Host: Adam Thorne
Co-host: Peter
Date: March 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers an in-depth and lively review of Joe Rogan’s latest conversation with Michael Pollan—author, journalist, and preeminent public thinker on food systems, plant intelligence, and, most famously, the therapeutic potential of psychedelics. Adam Thorne and Peter explore Pollan’s insights into the science and philosophy of consciousness, the ongoing psychedelic renaissance, and the surprising intelligence found in plants. Mixing humor, curiosity, and critical thinking, they help listeners unpack the episode's most valuable “gold nuggets,” while also reflecting on how Rogan and his guests have reshaped discussions around psychedelics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael Pollan’s Approach to Psychedelics & Consciousness

• Pollan’s bravery and curiosity: Admired for personally experimenting with substances like LSD and psilocybin to seek greater understanding of the mind.
  • "He’s pretty brave. He’ll pop some acid or mushrooms or whatever to change… Exploring, change his mind view or paradigm shift.” —Peter [02:15]
• Clinical & scientific perspective: Pollan applies a rigorous, research-driven lens to explore consciousness and the mind.
  • "He takes a clinical approach where he tries to figure out solutions to consciousness… from a sciencey way." —Peter [02:40]
• The "psychedelic renaissance": Recognition of the newfound legitimacy and clinical research happening around psychedelics for depression, PTSD, and addiction.
  • “He talks about psychedelics and the therapeutic renaissance almost. We’re in that right now, I guess.” —Adam [03:04]

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2. Therapeutic Potential & Mechanisms of Psychedelics

• Brain reset and ego dissolution: Discussion of “hero doses” and the therapeutic “reset” they can provide, breaking cycles of addiction/depression.
  • “You get the reset, right? The dissolving of the ego… and it’s almost like you lose your grip on whatever was holding you.” —Adam [06:01]
  • “It’s like almost stepping outside of our own mind and looking down on ourselves with new perspective.” —Peter [06:58]
• Need for proper guidance and set & setting: Strong caution over unsupervised use versus clinical, professional therapy.
  • “Hero’s dose is a lot of substance and often guided by somebody who’s really knowledgeable about this medicine.” —Peter [07:14]
  • “That’s the difference between underground use verse like regulated therapy.” —Adam [07:30]
• Shift toward mainstream acceptance: More clinics in the US, better training, standardization, and preference for medical over shamanistic models—though some tradition advocates resist this commercialization.
• Joe Rogan's role in normalization: Rogan’s repeated coverage and advocacy have been pivotal in shifting public attitude toward psychedelics.

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3. Plant Intelligence & Perception

• Non-centralized intelligence: Pollan’s exploration of whether plants—and by extension, all life—have intelligence or even consciousness.
  • “Plants don’t have brains… but they process information and they do respond intelligently. So then what is a brain?” —Adam [14:31]
• Complex sensory abilities in plants:
  • Chemical communication: Plants release signals to warn others of threats.
    • “Start biting on a leaf as a caterpillar. That Plant sends poisonous chemicals.” —Peter [17:50]
  • Sound & vibration sensitivity: Plants “hear” specific sounds and respond defensively—even in absence of an actual threat.
    • “Play sounds of certain caterpillars munching… the trees will start releasing chemicals… even though the bugs aren’t there, it’s just the sound.” —Adam [18:12]
• Memory-like behaviors: Some plants “remember” previous threats and adjust their responses accordingly.
  • "He talks about shaking a plant in a study… the leaves will close… but after a while, the plants stop bothering… that's a bit of memory right there.” —Peter [22:11]
• Anecdotes & studies: Discussion of studies on music (especially birdsong) and plant growth.
  • “Research suggests plants can grow better with birdsong, which acts as a form of acoustic fertilizer.” —Peter [25:45]

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4. Set & Setting: Psychedelic Experiences

• Cultural context: Western medical settings vs. shaman-led ceremonies in nature. Each has pros and cons based on personal preference and safety perceptions.
  • “Would I rather be rolling around on a forest in Peru… or… in a hospital bed with the intravenous drip? I think I’d rather be in a hospital bed.” —Peter [28:15]
  • “If I was… somewhere and thought I was dying, I would want that to be a hospital.” —Adam [30:01]
• Clinical DMT research: Reference to Rick Strassman’s experiments—consistent, bizarre experiences among many test subjects; yet, mostly safe.
  • “The results were interesting… people talked about seeing very similar things, which really freaked him out because that shouldn't be possible.” —Adam [33:04]

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5. Integration, Risks, and the Need for Care

• Potential for misuse and harm: Psychedelics are powerful medicines, not party drugs. Overuse, lack of guidance, or ignoring mental health risks can backfire.
  • “If you take too much and you’re in a bad spot, you can get trapped in a bad way for a long time.” —Adam [42:07]
• Addiction-breaking properties: Noted efficacy of psychedelics (especially mushrooms, peyote, iboga, and ibogaine) for ending cycles of chemical dependency in traditional and emerging clinical contexts.
• Powerful alternatives: ibogaine: Discusses "forced reset" nature—physically and mentally grueling yet sometimes life-saving, especially in the context of veteran PTSD.
  • “Whether you want to or not, it’s taking you on a journey and there’s kind of no coming back from it. It’s very uncomfortable. It’s like a good day’s worth.” —Adam [45:02]

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6. Practical, Spiritual, and Historical Contexts

• Spiritual resets and wisdom traditions: Reference to Viking berserkers and Native Americans using psychedelics for returning from war or even entering battle.
• Lost wisdom and rediscovery: Modern science validating ancient animistic and shamanic insights.
  • “I’m sure we had, honestly, a better grasp of what most of these did in most cultures thousands of years ago.” —Adam [49:32]
• Zen perspective on "doing" vs. "analyzing": Concludes with Pollan’s meeting with an 80-year-old Zen master in New Mexico who embodied the value of direct, unexamined experience over endless self-questioning.
  • "She was like, cool. Let's not beat it to death. Let's just live through it.” —Peter [52:14]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “He’s pretty brave. He’ll pop some acid or mushrooms or whatever to change… Exploring, change his mind view or paradigm shift.” —Peter [02:15]
• “You get the reset, right? The dissolving of the ego… and it’s almost like you lose your grip on whatever was holding you.” —Adam [06:01]
• “People have been kind of talking about it. But the way that he put it all together was really interesting. It was like a deep discussion on how plants perceive and interact in the world.” —Adam [14:31]
• “Play sounds of certain caterpillars munching… the trees will start releasing chemicals… even though the bugs aren’t there, it’s just the sound.” —Adam [18:12]
• “Research suggests plants can grow better with birdsong, which acts as a form of acoustic fertilizer.” —Peter [25:45]
• "If you take too much and you’re in a bad spot, you can get trapped in a bad way for a long time… Which may feel like 100 years." —Adam [42:07]
• “She was like, cool. Let's not beat it to death. Let's just live through it.” —Peter [52:14]
• “Maybe that is the only answer you need.” —Adam [52:25]

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Key Timestamps

| Time | Segment Highlight | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:10 | Intro to Michael Pollan and his investigative, experiential approach | | 03:04 | Discussion of the clinical research renaissance around psychedelics | | 06:01 | The “hero dose” and healing “reset” | | 14:31 | Exploration of plant intelligence and consciousness | | 17:50 | Chemical communications between plants in defense | | 22:11 | Studies on plant memory-like behavior | | 25:45 | Birdsong and plant growth: acoustic fertilizer studies | | 28:15 | Set & setting: medical vs. shamanic context debate | | 33:04 | Rick Strassman’s DMT IV research: similar hallucinations, subjective safety | | 42:07 | Risks of unguided psychedelic use and mental health caveats | | 44:21 | Psychedelics and addiction: Native American church and traditional uses | | 45:02 | Ibogaine as a powerful treatment for addiction among ex-military | | 52:14 | The Zen master’s “just do it” approach |

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Episode Tone & Character

• Respectful, irreverent, and curious. Adam and Peter balance awe for the science with tongue-in-cheek humor about stereotypes (gym bros, tech guys, turtlenecks).
• Encourages careful engagement, repeatedly emphasizing the importance of context, guidance, and avoiding reckless experimentation.
• Open-minded yet skeptical, especially regarding extreme or mystical claims—quick to verify anecdotes or challenge fuzzy science.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of the JRE Review offers a robust companion not only to Rogan’s interview with Michael Pollan but to the ongoing public conversation about psychedelics. Adam and Peter blend curiosity, lived experience, and evidence-based skepticism to make sense of a still-evolving field. The review offers scientific context, practical takeaways, and playful speculation about the intelligence of plants, the future of psychedelic medicine, and the wisdom of living less in one’s head.

“Maybe that is the only answer you need.” —Adam [52:25]

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Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Adam Thorne]

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you. Perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's Walk Dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created. Now with your host Adam Thorne. One go. Enjoy the show. Hey guys and welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review. This week we are reviewing the Michael Pollan episode. He is the best selling author and journalist known for exploring food systems, human behavior and psychedelics which he talks about a ton in this episode. His major works include how to Change your Mind, the Omnivore's Dilemma and this is yous Mind on Plants. He sits at the intersection of science, culture and philosophy, often translating complex topics into practical insights. Join today with my good buddy Peter. What did you think of Michael? He's an interesting fella, isn't he?

[Peter]

Yeah, he seems like an easy guy to talk to, that's for sure.

[Adam Thorne]

Smart.

[Peter]

He's done a lot of stuff in his life.

[Adam Thorne]

Lots of knowledge, author, tons of adventures.

[Peter]

He's pretty brave. He'll pop some acid or mushrooms or whatever to change. Exploring, change his mind view or paradigm shift.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, he's definitely searching for something. He's searching long and far and wide

[Peter]

in the depths of his mind.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, really trying to understand himself and others and all the rest of it.

[Peter]

I like. He takes a clinical approach where he tries to figure out solutions to consciousness or what it is to be conscious or human. And he goes about it from a sciencey way.

[Adam Thorne]

Sure, yeah, it's very interesting for Sure. I mean, he kind of talks about psychedelics and the therapeutic renaissance almost.

[Peter]

We're in that right now, I guess. Huh.

[Adam Thorne]

We are fancy terms.

[Peter]

Yeah. That is quite fancy.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Very kind of poetic as well. I mean, Pollan revisits the resurgence of psychedelics in clinical settings. They're able now to do a lot more re or even any research into

[Peter]

psychedelics with the mri. And there's other sensing techniques. Watch the brain as they take these drugs or medicine. He. I think he has probably how he would call them.

[Adam Thorne]

Sure.

[Peter]

And you can see the brain do things while we take these.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Regrowing synapses, like repairing itself.

[Peter]

That was an interesting thing. He said that our brain is unlike anything. We always try to compare things to the brain. Like, oh, this computer system is like a brain, but that's all. Our hardware and software are one. While we learn new things, our brain changes at the same time. So every day our brain is connecting or snapping little tiny pieces of itself to make memories.

[Adam Thorne]

Sure.

[Peter]

And relearn.

[Adam Thorne]

Right. Yeah. And he kind of emphasizes, you know, how depression, PTSD and addiction treatment is like, tied in with this new learning of kind of the therapeutic side of psychedelics. And that's really fascinating as the clinical end is being researched more and sought after because, you know, they're finding just more and more benefits to effective treatments in those directions. And it's important because some people are really stuck in those cycles. You know, regular treatments just don't work for certain people suffering from real chronic depression and PTSD and, you know, severe addictive patterns that just don't seem to be able to be broken any other way.

[Peter]

So we doesn't. He's mentioned that it doesn't change the medicine itself, doesn't change the brain. It allows us to be open to solutions to change our own brain. Like, it opens our scope and lets us drop some trauma that maybe is keeping us in that cycle.

[Adam Thorne]

Do you think that's a guess? How would he know that? Well, how does anyone know that?

[Peter]

I think with this stuff is a lot of guessing.

[Adam Thorne]

Right. Because it's sounds nice.

[Peter]

He said the phrase a few times.

[Adam Thorne]

Like, I guess they can see though, right? They can see. The brain is like, oh, the brain is the same afterwards.

[Peter]

And the results speak for themselves in

[Adam Thorne]

some cases and something has happened.

[Peter]

Yeah. Well, this guy now doesn't. He's not addicted to alcohol or other drugs because of this search he did in his own mind.

[Adam Thorne]

Sure. Well, they do talk a lot about a reset after, you know, that comes up a lot with psilocybin like after those sorts of sessions, therapeutic wise, the big sessions they often refer to as like the hero dose or whatever. It's like you get the reset, right. The dissolving of the ego, then there's this reset and it's almost like you lose your grip on whatever was holding you. The addiction, the depression, maybe the ptsd. And it's like then in that reset you have the space to kind of maybe possibly reevaluate and it's in that time that potentially you grab a hold of it again or not. You just have some space to kind of make a different choice.

[Peter]

It's like almost stepping outside of our own mind and looking down on ourselves with new perspective.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Peter]

It's like, well I don't have to do that. I can do whatever I want.

[Adam Thorne]

It just doesn't have that same grip over you anymore. What a strange thing that it can do. So interesting.

[Peter]

I think they actually do stress the need for a hero's dose as well. So don't just go try this stuff. Hero's dose is a lot of substance and often guided by somebody who's really knowledgeable about this medicine.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, that's definitely advisable.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. You don't want to just give that a shot, jump into it, right? Yeah, I definitely don't recommend it. Well, you know, that's the difference between underground use verse, like regulated therapy.

[Peter]

Yeah. Is there a big overlap now with drugs and, and therapy?

[Adam Thorne]

How do you mean?

[Peter]

Like is this a pretty common occurrence to people seeking this new avenue and it being open and accepted and practiced by people in clinical settings or therapist settings?

[Adam Thorne]

There's much larger availability to the therapeutic setting of that. Yeah, I mean way more available than it used to be.

[Peter]

Like you'd have to go to Peru

[Adam Thorne]

for some of this stuff before and now many places have it available, even in the us Any old, any old

[Peter]

Burning man is that you're telling me

[Adam Thorne]

you probably don't have to go that far nowadays, I wouldn't imagine.

[Peter]

Don't take any back alley DMT everybody.

[Adam Thorne]

There we go. Yeah, you can find places and people doing it and you know, more to your point, it's like becoming more accepted. There's better training for it and you know, clinicians are getting on board, professional kind of medical training as well and standards are coming in. There's just a lot of elements to it that are getting standardized almost which you know, some people push back on as well because they think that, you know, I've talked to some practitioners that prefer kind of the old way of doing it the more shamanistic way.

[Peter]

Oh, okay.

[Adam Thorne]

And they're thinking that it's kind of almost becoming commercialized, but in the same way, it's like ultimately you want it available to more people.

[Peter]

Right. In their comfortability delivery method.

[Adam Thorne]

Sure. And you do hopefully want it to not be illegal because then again, people aren't getting in trouble and again, there's more access to it. So there has to be a compromise in there somewhere. Like if there's rules involved or the government's involved, they're always going to have

[Peter]

rules, laws, they have to.

[Adam Thorne]

And some standards that they put on it, which is going to take away from some practice.

[Peter]

The primal nature of it.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. But it's kind of cool to see that happening. I sometimes wonder like, what impact Joe's podcast has made on the whole world of mushrooms alone, becoming more and more legal with the amount of people that he's had on his podcast that have done work in that area and with all the publicity that he's put in this kind of field. Over how long has he done his podcast now? Like 17 years. It's a long time. Almost 17 years.

[Peter]

I know he's changed popular opinion about it because, you know, maybe 10 years ago you really started to notice a

[Adam Thorne]

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[Peter]

Overlap between the like, manly side of, you know, the gym crew and the hunters are now also the mushroom guys. You must be allergic to mushroom talk.

[Adam Thorne]

Uh huh. No, you're right. I mean, you know, there's like gym bros that have always listened to Rogan and are now way more open to the idea of like a psychedelic conversation.

[Peter]

The tech guys are all about the psychedelics. They might have been the first kind of overlap.

[Adam Thorne]

They probably always kind of were, that I noticed.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

I mean, you know, Steve Jobs was doing LSD and inventing Apple products back in the day.

[Peter]

Was he, man?

[Adam Thorne]

Pretty sure, yeah.

[Peter]

Can't wear a turtleneck.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, those guys are major creatives.

[Peter]

That's true.

[Adam Thorne]

You can't not wear a turtleneck and do lsd.

[Peter]

Is that a fanny pack and a turtleneck combo?

[Adam Thorne]

That's part of it.

[Peter]

I love that look.

[Adam Thorne]

Getting real artsy.

[Peter]

Where's your beret?

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, real artsy. But yeah, it's. It's like the crossover of. Of all these different. The melding.

[Peter]

So it's like different archetypes leveraging plants and their capabilities to help our minds.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Oh, and talking about plants, they got into that in a big way. All the hidden senses. What did you make of all that? I found that pretty fascinating.

[Peter]

It's not news to me. I knew this stuff.

[Adam Thorne]

I mean, people have been kind of talking about it. But the way that he put it all together was really interesting. It was like a deep discussion on how plants perceive and interact in the world. And you know, like, plants don't have brains, like as we know it, but they process information and they do respond intelligently. So then what is a brain? Does a brain have to be centralized? Isn't any intelligence a reflection of a brain? Because isn't intelligence from a brain? Can an intelligence come from anything that's not a brain.

[Peter]

A system of cells on a planet constituting its thought processes? I would say.

[Adam Thorne]

Can we. Can we say that a cell is intelligent because it does complicated things, or is that just an automatic system?

[Peter]

Yeah, that's a def. I think you're splitting definitions like, it's obviously alive and it obviously wants to live. How else do you. You know, how do you.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, just because something's alive, I don't think that it necessarily has to be intelligent. So let's figure out what intelligence.

[Peter]

Like, what about a jellyfish? The ones that don't have any centralized brain structure.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Peter]

So in many ways, they're like a.

[Adam Thorne]

Do they have some intelligence?

[Peter]

That's a good question.

[Adam Thorne]

And what is intelligence? Is intelligence just reacting to external stimuli of some kind? I mean, don't cells on their own do that in some way? Yeah, they must do. Right? I mean, if a cell is, like, getting dehydrated, they do something to stop losing fluid. Isn't that an intelligent response in itself?

[Peter]

Depends on the looker and the definer.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Peter]

If you went to, like, a Native American today and said, oh, yeah, we're finding out that almost all things potentially can have consciousness in some way, like this tree or that rock, they would say, of course, of course, we knew this already. So it's kind of. He's describing how the new science is backing up the old thoughts about these religions that we all share, evolving. We've all been animistic, meaning everything has a spirit and a right to life, in a way.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, but we're not saying rocks do.

[Peter]

He's saying that potential. There's what is. And it goes back to what is intelligence? What is consciousness? This is an interesting podcast. He speculates that maybe there is.

[Adam Thorne]

Could be. I mean, you know, why are we all that much different than anything else in the universe? We're just made of pieces of it.

[Peter]

Yeah, we're just a six. Just break it out.

[Adam Thorne]

It's just like we notice ourselves clearly, and we can talk to other versions of things like ourselves, and we notice it. And a chair or a rock doesn't seem to. Yeah, but that's only because we don't communicate with it.

[Peter]

It's about the.

[Adam Thorne]

We don't really know what it's doing.

[Peter]

Not really a rock. It's. It's very interesting.

[Adam Thorne]

So, yeah, what. What are the intelligent. They have chemical communication. So plants release compounds to warn nearby plants of threats like insects.

[Peter]

Yeah. If you.

[Adam Thorne]

That's real.

[Peter]

Start biting on a leaf as a caterpillar. That Plant sends poisonous chemicals to that area to make it taste bad. And then in turn, of course, insects adapt to that. And then some of them use that poison to make themselves inedible to birds.

[Adam Thorne]

So, yeah, you can, like, play sounds

[Peter]

of

[Adam Thorne]

like certain caterpillars munching on leaves near plants or trees, and the trees will start releasing chemicals out of the leaves to make their leaves taste nastier.

[Peter]

That's incredible.

[Adam Thorne]

And the. And the bugs aren't even there. It's just the sound.

[Peter]

So we know it's.

[Adam Thorne]

So it means that they have. They can hear ability to hear.

[Peter]

They can sense that vibration or something. And it's that. That blows my mind. That goes back to where is the brain here? Or does. Do all these cells act together as a brain?

[Adam Thorne]

Right. So smelling and tasting roots detect nutrients, toxins, and other organisms in the soil. That kind of makes sense. It's a root, Right. What did we think it did just stick into the ground and then hope stuff was there? It's like it doesn't just randomly spread out. That would be the laziest evolution ever. You would imagine that it's going in some direction down generally, right? Well, we know it goes down, and then when it goes out, it's like gonna go, you know, in some direction that's slightly tastier than another direction.

[Peter]

And maybe the mushroom connection down there has something to do with that. Yeah, they tap into those inside.

[Adam Thorne]

What is that? The myocelium.

[Peter]

The mycelium.

[Adam Thorne]

Mycelium. Well, that's important because that is where all the nitrogen comes from. Right.

[Peter]

They fix it into the ground.

[Adam Thorne]

I think so.

[Peter]

That makes sense.

[Adam Thorne]

It breaks it down. And that's how the trees get it or the plants or whatever.

[Peter]

We're learning more and more that plants are not just dumb, inactive, dumb things on the plate on this earth. They're part of this.

[Adam Thorne]

And then we mow them all down. Ah, get out of the way. We need the good old flat garden here.

[Peter]

I want a nice dusty field, please.

[Adam Thorne]

Dusty field.

[Peter]

That's my dad's right method.

[Adam Thorne]

Their light sensing. Plants can detect direction, intensity, and even light wave shifts. Well, that makes a ton of sense because they make slight. They're all about light. Yeah, they're photosynthetic. Like, that one is the most obvious one. They're green for a reason. That's the middle of the light spectrum. For that's why they're. That color.

[Peter]

Makes sense. Or are they that color all the other? They are that color.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, they're that color because it's right. The Green is right in the middle.

[Peter]

Chlorophyll of the thing is that they're able to accept the light and make it into food.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, yeah. Otherwise all the trees would be like blue or different colors. But it's green because it's right in the middle.

[Peter]

Fall's the death of trees. But it's the prettiest time for trees, I think.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Peter]

They turn orange.

[Adam Thorne]

Uh huh. Well they're not photosynthetic.

[Peter]

Then the lack of chlorophyll.

[Adam Thorne]

It's because all that. So yeah. And then touch sensitivity. Vines and climbing plants feel their environment and adapt growth patterns. Didn't they say something? I thought he did say something about they could see as well.

[Peter]

Well, that might the light thing. Sunlight. They can see sunlight.

[Adam Thorne]

I guess the light sensing. But all it said here is it would just move in direction and intensity. But I thought I had a note on that. I guess I don't, I didn't write it down. But I'm pretty sure that he did say something like that. And sound and vibration sensitivity. Yeah, that one is just hearing and then memory like behavior. That one's interesting. Plants can remember stress events and adapt future responses.

[Peter]

That kind of proves that there is some ability to remember.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Peter]

He talks about shaking a plant in a study and the leaves will close to prevent being eaten and you can shake it repeatedly and then the plant says oh I being shaken and my leaves are not being eaten. So that response becomes deadened and they don't clothes anymore. So that's a bit of memory right there.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Peter]

It kind of proves it. All this stuff has been tested by somebody and he's, he's referencing research.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, well, you know, you've heard of people talking about how you know, trees or plants are under stress. They're stressed and then they die. It's like to actual emotion.

[Peter]

Poor little guys.

[Adam Thorne]

I know therapy for plants. You got to play music. They like classical music.

[Peter]

I do know that. They actually do. And if you play bird songs, they grow better.

[Adam Thorne]

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[Peter]

If you play bird songs during the sunrise, they grow better. And that was demonstrated by people like maybe 50 years ago.

[Adam Thorne]

That true?

[Peter]

Yes.

[Adam Thorne]

I don't.

[Peter]

Oh, I got Google it. Google this. Let me just look it up.

[Adam Thorne]

Look it up.

[Peter]

You waffle it.

[Adam Thorne]

I think that that is. I think that's a stretch.

[Peter]

Let's just check it out.

[Adam Thorne]

Let's take a look. We got a minute here. We're going to take a look. Going to find out.

[Peter]

Yeah. Research suggests plants can grow better with birdsong, which acts as a form of acoustic fertilizer. High frequency sounds typical of birdsong, especially at sunrise. Vibrate leaf stomata, causing them to open wider and absorb more water and nutrients.

[Adam Thorne]

That's interesting.

[Peter]

And that was an old one.

[Adam Thorne]

Wow. Huh? Yeah. Maybe it just me, you know, tells them they're in a healthier environment. Like, if birds are around, then it probably means that there's other resources and nutrients that they're gonna need because otherwise the birds wouldn't be there.

[Peter]

Well, and the birds are often their fertilizer or their seed disbursement method.

[Adam Thorne]

Right.

[Peter]

They'll eat the little fruits.

[Adam Thorne]

And so if it's a tree that requires birds for dispersal, for the seeds, then they're like, we're in good shape, guys. We got birds over here.

[Peter]

We got birds.

[Adam Thorne]

Time to grow, do our thing. That is fascinating.

[Peter]

The world is an intricate place, and it's. We just got a more.

[Adam Thorne]

We got to keep doing those experiments, find out more and more of, like, what's up? And then, like, how fascinating would it be once we start getting AI on that and really hammering down, like, ways to communicate back with, like, see what else it can communicate? Like, okay, they can communicate these, like, very basic things, like react to these different stimuli. But maybe there's more communication going on there. Maybe it's like. I don't know, maybe there's even a language in there somewhere.

[Peter]

Magic.

[Adam Thorne]

Magic trees.

[Peter]

That's. We can just call.

[Adam Thorne]

Just get some magic.

[Peter]

Yeah. Come on.

[Adam Thorne]

Eventually coming back around. We'll see. Eventually back to the psychedelics. The big area that he went into is the set and setting and kind of, like, why the context matters. Right. So you know the. The guidelines around that and. And, like, the psychology of it. And it's. What's your take on that? With experience. And, I mean, you've done this recreationally. You've seen it done recreationally. You know, people walking around a park together or however it is. And it's. And everyone knows that you want to do this with friends, good friends and in a good place. Nobody. No weirdos.

[Peter]

Yeah. Do I.

[Adam Thorne]

No screamers.

[Peter]

Would I rather. Would I rather be rolling around on a forest in Peru on the dirt, or would I rather be in a hospital bed with the intravenous drip? I guess depends on what we're doing. But sometimes I think I'd rather be in a hospital bed being administered by a doctor than in the woods with jaguars. And

[Adam Thorne]

I don't think that when people say you're down in Peru, I don't know if it's quite the vision that people think, though. Surely you're not just, like, deep in the woods and it's all dark and you're around a fire and there's just animals, I don't know, howling.

[Peter]

I don't know about that one.

[Adam Thorne]

Maybe.

[Peter]

There's probably some elements of that.

[Adam Thorne]

Okay.

[Peter]

Especially in the old. Like a little. In the days before.

[Adam Thorne]

I'd like to think that they've, like, cleared out a space and there's some huts.

[Peter]

I know I'd be scampering around and getting dirty.

[Adam Thorne]

It's. Yeah, I'm sure they've made it calming. That's why they do those things.

[Peter]

I want a nice gal to jab me with a needle and say, everything's gonna be okay, and I'll lay down

[Adam Thorne]

in a big white room.

[Peter]

They know I'm Gonna be going through something and it's clean.

[Adam Thorne]

Is this like the Western white person's

[Peter]

version of I am what I am?

[Adam Thorne]

Okay. All right, That's. Do you feel like in a safe space in a hospital?

[Peter]

No.

[Adam Thorne]

Feel like you're going to be made better?

[Peter]

No, no, no. Like, a hospital maybe is a clinic. Small.

[Adam Thorne]

Okay.

[Peter]

Like in a. I.

[Adam Thorne]

But honestly, I think I associate those things. Like, if I was going to be somewhere and I thought I was dying, I would want that to be a hospital. If I was like, I am dying.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

You know, you're either bleeding or just, like, in some psychedelic trip that is, like, absolutely way too much to deal with. Like, one of those places in your panic zone of, like, this could result in a death of me.

[Peter]

Existential crisis.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Whether it's physical or just in your mind, I think that the safest place that I could imagine being is. Is, like. Yeah. Kind of in a hospital.

[Peter]

We go there for fixes. So if you're getting fixed with some psychedelics, why not get fixed?

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. We're kind of trained to understand that from, like, little kid. Doctors fix you.

[Peter]

It's part of the setting. And so if someone else wants to go do the woods one, which is probably how I would have been into it when I was younger, but I would probably prefer a little more of a controlled environment now if it is just being out in the woods with a shaman and some jaguars.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, the Rick Strassman DMT experiments that they did in New Mexico, where they were doing the IV drips of dmt, that was, like, very clinical. I think they did that at maybe one of the UNM hospitals, though probably. That was, like, super clinical. That sounded like a really pretty safe way of doing the most hallucinogenic drug on the planet. I mean, if you're gonna delve in that deep in that kind of a way, I mean, that drug is in and out of your system very quickly. Right. By all accounts. And if you do IVs, I guess they can hold you there much longer. You're, like, in for a long time. Which I assume is quite unnatural, because unless you have the iv, there's, like, no other way of doing that. Because your body is good at cleaning that out of his system.

[Peter]

Oh, I think you can. There are ways to prolong your DMT trips.

[Adam Thorne]

Like ayahuasca.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

But that's a different experience.

[Peter]

Gotcha.

[Adam Thorne]

Because even though they have the inhibitor in there, it's, like, not as intense because it just is processing different.

[Peter]

It's a different thing, I guess.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, supposedly I haven't done that one, but yeah, it's not as completely trippy as a dmt, but the IV is, it's like you're gone, you're in space and time.

[Peter]

I would, I'm automatically nervous by that perspective. Possibility of having intravenous hallucinogens. That sounds, that's incredible. And I don't, I think I'd steer clear of that one for. Personally.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Well, the results were interesting. I mean a lot of people talked about seeing very similar things, which really freaked him out because that shouldn't be possible. And then it was kind of a mixed bag. Some people were like, yeah, I would do that again. And others were like, no, I don't think that I cared to do that. But it didn't seem like anybody walked away from it with any permanent trauma style freak out stuff.

[Peter]

I wonder how they're, how they, how that affected their lives going forward.

[Adam Thorne]

I think there has been some follow ups. I haven't heard any major negative results from it. I'm sure he would have talked about it. He's been on Rogan quite a few times.

[Peter]

He has? Oh yeah, I've listened to his before.

[Adam Thorne]

I don't think that he would hide that type of data. But yeah, I'm not really sure. Yeah, I don't really know. I guess it's like right now we're in a place where we're collecting more and more data. More people are undergoing this type of therapy. We're seeing positive results from it. You know, we're seeing positive results from people with head injuries and trauma to the brain with the regrowth of kind of neurons and synapse improvements, which is quite positive. And over the next however many years, decades, we're going to start to get quite a lot of data coming back in and you know, we move forward from there and see, okay, what do we have now? You know, where do we go from here? But in terms of therapeutics and how this is added to people's just kind of general journeys and their experience in existence. You think this is going to become like an integral part of people's lives? You think that.

[Peter]

I think it's gonna become.

[Adam Thorne]

This would be pretty accepted.

[Peter]

It's gonna become.

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[Peter]

An integral part of medicine, if it flourishes, if it's allowed to flourish because it has so many positive implications for the mind and recovery and opening your mind.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Peter]

So I think if it's love to flourish, it's gonna be part of our handbook for medicine.

[Adam Thorne]

Have you seen that guy, that billionaire guy that's just trying to stay young forever?

[Peter]

I have, right? Brian Johnson.

[Adam Thorne]

That's it. And he was recently on Theo's podcast, and it wasn't a bad interview at all. Like, he's, he's kind of awkward guy, but he's doing. He's doing his best to, like, seem normal.

[Peter]

He's, you know, he's a Zuckerberg type.

[Adam Thorne]

He's trying to do a Zuckerberg 2.0 version, like, wearing cool T shirts.

[Peter]

I got this hoodie on.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. He's like, look at me. I'm young, cool, and hip now, but

[Peter]

skateboard in his backpack.

[Adam Thorne]

He's doing his best. He's doing his best. And he was trying to be funny with. With Theo, but he did talk about adding psilocybin to his protocol, which is an interesting spin because he's all about data, and he's literally only about following data that is positive results that he can back up. And if it doesn't show any positive results, if it doesn't add something in some metric that is clearly perceivable, he won't Add it to his routine. And he said that it was remarkable what psilocybin added. It was like almost a massive reset for his. I think it was his, like, glucose levels or something.

[Peter]

So it had other effects on your body.

[Adam Thorne]

It like, reset a bunch of stuff. And I can't remember all the pieces that he said, I'll put the clip in the bio. But, yeah, it was kind of remarkable what it was able to do. So now he's like, yeah, I'm gonna add this to my total protocol every so many months. And it was like a 99% reset. He said he hasn't been able to reset that any other way.

[Peter]

His. Whatever. He's talking about his glucose.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, it was like. So he said his blood glucose variability improved significantly. He described it as a kind of metabolic reset. So his glucose control moved from worst percentile to nearly optimal range based on his own tracking data.

[Peter]

So blood test. He took a test.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. So massively surprising.

[Peter]

I wonder if he just has a lab in his house.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, dude, he spends, like, millions of dollars a year.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

Like 10 million a year, like, collecting this data. And in fact, what's very interesting about it is he makes it available to everybody. He's, like, collected like, some of the biggest sample groups of data. You know, I mean, it's not biggest sample groups because it's actually a small sample group. It's mainly him. But it's maybe his s. But it's a lot of data on a lot of different individual testing that is just done through him. Right. So he's finding all the best things that work for him in particular. You can use it if you want to.

[Peter]

Hey, maybe let's incorporate some of his stuff into our regimen. Let's get on some methyl or whatever he has.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, people do. They. You can buy his supplements and he has all sorts of things that you know. But he's also super rich, so I don't think he's necessarily doing it to make tons of money. I'm sure he wants to make some money, but pay for. Outsource some of his millions of dollars that he's spending.

[Peter]

That teenager blood ain't free.

[Adam Thorne]

Well, he's turned back his, like, metabolic age by, like, 20 years.

[Peter]

Yeah, that'd be cool. I'd like to do that.

[Adam Thorne]

Pretty impressive. Pretty impressive stuff. But I don't know, at the end of the day, look, these psychedelics are not for everybody. I mean, you've got to look at your family history. They did talk about psychosis and instability. You know, if you're in a place where you've suffered from pretty severe types of anxieties. I mean you've got to be cautious about this sorts of stuff. You know, it is connected to like reducing anxieties and depression. But you've got to know kind of when to use it, what the doses are. And this is when the knowledge about how to use it comes in. And you know, this is why it can't just be like self administered and you can't guess because that's where it gets a bit squirrely. And you can make things worse for yourself because you can scare the shit out of yourself with this stuff too.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

And if you take too much and you're in a bad spot, you can get trapped in a bad way for a long time.

[Peter]

Can be hours, it'll be a day, it'll be your day that's at least.

[Adam Thorne]

Which may feel like 100 years.

[Peter]

Exactly.

[Adam Thorne]

Because time gets squirrely.

[Peter]

Yeah. It's a lot of you. There's pretty common feelings when you do psychedelics and being uncomfortable is a very common feeling when you're doing these. So it's not, it's a medicine, not a drug for sure. And you don't, definitely don't want to replace it. You replace that with your jug of choice because then you're just jumping from one thing to the other.

[Adam Thorne]

Right. Yeah, well. And. But it doesn't tend to have people develop like addictive patents with it. You know, it's unlikely that people want to jump in and be like, oh I gotta do mushrooms every day now. Like that's a big exhausting.

[Peter]

I think that there are people that do that though.

[Adam Thorne]

I believe it's true.

[Peter]

Have you ever been you. I'm not sure if you've been in a lot of communities where that's common but I've, I've seen some people that have gone out to lunch from acid in particular.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, people can do a lot of acid every day. I know that one. But mushrooms seems like a lot of work.

[Peter]

I think they all the effects diminish if you take it day by day. If you don't give yourself a cooling off period that doesn't have the same amount of hallucinogenic properties. But you're still on mushrooms and it's still, you're still googly eyed and not all there.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. You want to spread it out but I mean you compare it to marijuana or alcohol, people can get into cycles of wanting to do that every day. Especially alcohol. Alcohol is an easy one to get in a daily rotation of oh, yeah. And then you, you know, you kind of get yourself trapped and then it just cycles. But, you know, it's that mushrooms are often used to kind of break addiction.

[Peter]

Right. I think they're used. They're used in the Native American church, mushrooms and peyote to treat their members that have some serious addictions they can't kick.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, peyote works well for that too.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Adam Thorne]

That's interesting. Does peyote have similar effects too?

[Peter]

I think it's that mescaline.

[Adam Thorne]

Okay.

[Peter]

It's masculine and it has some similar properties. It's different in some ways as far as the experience. But the first thing about all these cures are you gotta want to be cured.

[Adam Thorne]

There has to be some sort of

[Peter]

desire, impetus to change.

[Adam Thorne]

Sure. I think that's the bit of the difference with that one that has been really picking up a lot of steam now called ibogaine is that the toads believes. Maybe, but ibogaine is, is just very powerful. And as far as I understand, and don't quote me on it, but it's like whether you want to or not, it's taking you on a journey and there's kind of no coming back from it. It's very uncomfortable. It's like a good day's worth. And there's a good chance that it kicks whatever you took in with you away.

[Peter]

It'll take away your. It does a lot of work.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, it just cleans it out. It's quite powerful.

[Peter]

It's from a tree, a plant, the tabernathi iboga plant.

[Adam Thorne]

Ooh, iboga.

[Peter]

That sounds healing. Does dream inducing. Central African in origin. Interesting.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Peter]

It's good at treating addiction, particularly opioid cocaine and alcohol dependency. That's what you're saying?

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. And it's just supposed to be super uncomfortable. I know a bunch of military guys. Well, they're retired now, but they suffer from ptsd. They're in a group and an organization is paying for them to go down somewhere, I believe in Mexico and go through an experience. So they had to apply for it. And there's protocols that they have to follow before they get there. Certain types of kind of food and cleansing eating that they have to do before they get there. And then they go through like a weekend clean out and then they do the ibogaine and. Yeah, and one of them I'm going to interview when they get back.

[Peter]

That's awesome.

[Adam Thorne]

So I've got to figure out a time like I don't want to do it right away because I want to give them Time to just kind of integrate it and chill and just let it, like, take effect. Because I also want to get as part of that interview just some of the results. If it's too soon, it's like, what are the results? Just what you think they might be. Because often people get back and they're like, man, you won't even believe it. I'm totally changed. I'm a different person. It's all different now. I'm completely. I'm so spiritual. And then three weeks from. And then they're the same person and they're just procrastinating in the same way and doing all the same shit. I'd rather give them two months or three months and see what they're doing different. How are their behaviors different, what has changed and then reflect on it and see. But it's, you know, it's pretty interesting and what a. What a cool experience. And hopefully he can get while he's down there, you know, connect with some of the other guys that go. And then we'll afterwards, when he's back, get some stories from them as well, bring that into the interview and just kind of compare notes. See. See what it's done for all of these people. Because who knows, maybe this is, like, the new, powerful way for many people to kind of cleanse themselves out. There's a new documentary on Netflix about a bunch of Special forces guys that have gone through this, and it stopped a bunch of them from this pattern of suicide that many of them have been, you know, stuck in because of what they've all been through and how difficult it is to process their experiences. And there's some kind of. Gives them hope.

[Peter]

And there's some going again, anecdotal stories about people of all, like, Vikings, Native Americans using hallucinogens to come back from war. Also to do war with, like, the Vikings.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, the Vikings. Yeah, the berserkers. They'd, like, do mushrooms, go into battle.

[Peter]

Pretty nuts.

[Adam Thorne]

Lunatics.

[Peter]

That's nuts.

[Adam Thorne]

They couldn't have done too much. Well, you'd be all over the place.

[Peter]

You just want to steer clear when they're on those things. When they got the big sword swinging

[Adam Thorne]

around, they just hit in a tree.

[Peter]

He doesn't like trees.

[Adam Thorne]

You're like, bijor, get over here. It's the wrong way.

[Peter]

So there's all kinds of practical applications for this, is what we're saying.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure we had, honestly, a better grasp of what most of these did in most cultures thousands of years ago, I think We've probably lost their uses. I bet, like ancient wise men would have looked at us today and be like, you're not using it for this. You know it's for that, right?

[Peter]

You're using it for that. It's for that.

[Adam Thorne]

You're not even using it for this.

[Peter]

You guys come out like a rock in bed.

[Adam Thorne]

Get it together.

[Peter]

There's a. What about that mushroom in Asia that makes you see dwarves?

[Adam Thorne]

That one is interesting.

[Peter]

It doesn't even make you trip. It just makes you see dwarves and imps and fairies and stuff.

[Adam Thorne]

Do you know that they have analyzed it. They don't even know what the. There's no psychedelic compound that they can find in there. They don't even know what the thing is.

[Peter]

There's dwarves out there, man.

[Adam Thorne]

You just see little people.

[Peter]

I'd take that one.

[Adam Thorne]

That one sounds.

[Peter]

Come on, let's do it.

[Adam Thorne]

But what if when you're done after that, you just always kind of are thinking that there's little people around?

[Peter]

Like you kind of peer under a table and his little eyes are looking just like itch.

[Adam Thorne]

You're like, whoa. Just like. Yeah, it's just ptsd. I'd risk it.

[Peter]

I'd risk it.

[Adam Thorne]

Tiny little people.

[Peter]

I kind of already think there are those things running around.

[Adam Thorne]

Gulliver's Travels, right?

[Peter]

Childhood fears. Yeah. The Lilliputians.

[Adam Thorne]

Tie you down.

[Peter]

Tiny little folk.

[Adam Thorne]

That can't be right.

[Peter]

Just short.

[Adam Thorne]

I'm not buying it.

[Peter]

Yeah, okay.

[Adam Thorne]

Do you think they're making that up?

[Peter]

Let's give it a shot.

[Adam Thorne]

I'm not doing it.

[Peter]

All right.

[Adam Thorne]

I'm not into it. That one's madness. You do it. You get back to. I'll interview you.

[Peter]

Okay. I'm like, there's one on your shoulder right now.

[Adam Thorne]

They're all over them.

[Peter]

That has given you a wet willy.

[Adam Thorne]

I wonder what the advantage is there a therapeutic benefit to that one, do you think?

[Peter]

It's just endlessly fascinating to me that you might be able to see some little people running around.

[Adam Thorne]

Is there any other reported effects of that? People giggling or are they scared?

[Peter]

We'll have to get to the bottom of this. Maybe we'll talk about it at a different podcast.

[Adam Thorne]

Okay, we'll find out. But anyway, what did you think of this one overall? Fascinating, interesting. Brilliant. You like this guy?

[Peter]

I liked it. I especially liked when he was talking about his Zen experience. Like the 80 year old monk that he went and visited in New Mexico.

[Adam Thorne]

Oh, yeah.

[Peter]

And she was, you know, like a Zen master. Like any Zen master. Didn't have any answers? Just the answer is doing it right. Forgetting about it.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. She didn't like analyzing anything. Huh. She was like, cool.

[Peter]

Let's not beat it to death. Let's just live through it. Yeah. Let's not even process are you better or not? Are you.

[Adam Thorne]

Did it. Do the thing?

[Peter]

He.

[Adam Thorne]

There you go.

[Peter]

Yeah. Maybe that is the only answer you need. So he's on the other side, but he still likes that.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah.

[Peter]

He's like a clinical guy.

[Adam Thorne]

Really. It was just because she was busy and didn't want to listen to it. She had stuff to do. She's like, listen, I'm old as shit. I don't have time for this.

[Peter]

I got a garden to manage.

[Adam Thorne]

I got my beets.

[Peter]

I got stuff to do. She's growing some squash.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe she just got to the point where she's like, what's. Why. What are you doing with this analysis? Where are we going with this? Just be.

[Peter]

Yeah, that's another cyclical arrival. You know, every. We seek it with science and we come back to the ancient philosophies, and just like we were seeking outcomes with psychedelics, and we're coming back to old shaman ways of doing it.

[Adam Thorne]

Sure, sure. I mean, who knows? Maybe, like, at the end of the day, you get to some conclusion and it's like, well, do you feel that much better that you came to a conclusion? Are you that much smarter? Are you going to do anything with this answer, or did you just waste a bunch of time pondering this is

[Peter]

an ego paper you're working on? Or are you trying to actually get into the bottom of some of your thoughts and feelings?

[Adam Thorne]

Exactly. Is it just a bunch of fancy language?

[Peter]

Are you trying to get a PhD with this, or are you trying to be better? I think that's kind of her. Her take on some of that stuff.

[Adam Thorne]

I like it. She sounds like a cool old lady.

[Peter]

I'd be frustrated, but I'd help her garden.

[Adam Thorne]

Yeah, let's hang out with her.

[Peter]

Tell me the answers, man.

[Adam Thorne]

Anyway, she's cool. We like her. Check out the pod. It was great. And we will talk to you guys next time.

[Peter]

Cheers.

[Adam Thorne]

Later.

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