S2E10 Food, Glorious Food!

Summary

Episode Summary: "Food, Glorious Food!"

Podcast: John Kiriakou's Dead Drop
Hosts: John Kiriakou & Alan Katz
Guest: Joey Castello
Episode: S2E10
Date: July 20, 2026

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Overview

In this episode of Dead Drop, John Kiriakou dives into the personal and communal culture of food inside federal prison, revealing how the world of institutional slop, inmate ingenuity, and social hierarchies intersect around meals. Special guest Joey Castello, once one of the most respected “chefs” at FCI Loretto, joins John to tell stories of culinary survival, creativity, and camaraderie behind bars—showing how food brings dignity, alliances, and even laughter to a dehumanizing environment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Prison Food: The Institutional Reality

• Opening Stories of "Fish Day" and "Taco Night"
  • John describes his horror at being served "sewer trout"—Alaskan cod labeled "not for human consumption" ([00:45]) and recounts a memorable moment being served actual dog food, for which the warden later issued an apology ([02:30]).
  • Memorable quote:

    “The shame is not even that we were fed dog food. The shame is that we were fed dog food and we couldn't even tell the difference.” — John Kiriakou [02:48]

• Food as a Weapon and Survival
  • Institutional food is described as below even other institutional standards—"a hellish jambalaya of gastronomic awfulness" ([01:50]).
  • Food quality is tied to corruption and neglect: prisoners rely on their own resourcefulness or connections to avoid illness or constant discomfort.

2. Inmate Cuisine: Cooking as Community

• Introduction of Inmate “Chefs” and Cooking Techniques
  • Joey recounts learning how to use the infamous "stinger"—homemade electric water heaters created from scrap metal and wires—for bucket-based cooking ([04:18]).
  • Italian inmates cook not just for sustenance, but for "the culinary experience" ([03:45]), echoing a sense of honor, tradition, and culture.
  • Sharing about late-night Italian meals, Joey says:

    “It was like being in a restaurant in Little Italy. How did you do that?” — John Kiriakou [04:08]

• Trash Can Gourmet & Stinger Engineering
  • Meals in trash cans, boiled with jury-rigged stingers: pizzas, calzones, manigaudi, pastas ([06:20]).
  • Ingredients come by hustling: most not from commissary but stolen, bartered, or traded with guards and kitchen staff ([07:20]).
• Bartering and "The Pipeline"
  • The internal economy: Inmate “chefs” barter with stamps or mackerel packets for real food, ingredients acquired from corrupt guards or kitchen workers ([09:10]).

3. Social Structure & Food

• Seating Hierarchies and Social Navigation
  • Eating arrangements are starkly segregated by race and affiliation ([13:47]), with "made men" Italians holding unique respect.
  • Joey and John both recount being "reassigned" from default tables to Italian tables by Pete or Nikki, highlighting how alliances form around meals ([15:31]).

    “From today, you’re with the Italians.” — Pete Calabrese, recalled by John [15:41]

• Respect, Tradition, and Inclusion:
  • Italians are portrayed as the smallest but most respected "gang." Joey explains their group decisions and code of honor; they're not hierarchical but operate by consensus ([17:42]).
  • Memorable quote:

    “The Italians were the only gang in air quotes that didn’t have a shot caller. They did everything by consensus.” — John Kiriakou [18:13]

4. Culinary Ingenuity and Resourcefulness

• Improvised Ingredients and Cooking Methods
  • Acquiring real ingredients via guards led to “Goodfellas-style” meals. Shaving garlic with razor blades, using makeshift utensils ([20:36], [21:29]).
  • “We would shave the garlic and it liquefies in the oil. That scene in Goodfellas was 1,000% true.” — John Kiriakou [20:36]
• Desserts and Feast Culture
  • Joey recalls making cannolis and cakes with improvised ingredients from commissary and “imports” ([33:57], [34:45]).
  • Parties: “Everybody would bring their bowl,” Joey says, and meals became social events ([29:08]).
• Physical Toll of Abundance
  • Both gained 35 pounds in prison, a testament to the richness of their “black market” diet ([29:14], [29:18]).

5. Prison Politics, Hustle, and Humor

• Contraband, Side Hustles, and Guard Deals
  • Mexicans' hustle: stealing and selling meat, eggs from the cafeteria ([27:51]).
  • Warden’s comments on their weight gain sparks sharp retort from John:

    “What are you, my tailor or my warden?” — John Kiriakou [29:44]

• Limits to the Hustle
  • Joey and John both avoided "hooch" (prison wine), explaining its dangers and the lockdowns it sometimes caused ([29:46], [30:25]).

6. Friendship, Survival, and Post-Prison Life

• Importance of Community
  • John credits friendships, particularly among the Italians like Joey and Mark, for making prison tolerable ([47:29]).

    “Honest to God, if it wasn’t for Joey and Mark and Pete, I’m not sure how I could have gotten through it.” — John Kiriakou [47:29]

• Enduring Friendships Beyond Bars
  • Many relationships forged over food and shared experience have lasted, with John defending his continued contact with ex-inmates during a recent trial ([48:46]).
• Adaptation to Life After Prison
  • Joey now runs a successful pizzeria, cherishing his autonomy—and shares a poignant story about caring for his mother with dementia ([39:11]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On prison food:

  “Prison food is institutional food that other institutional food laughs at. No, that’s actually not true. It sneers at it, and with good reason.” — John Kiriakou [01:35]

• On making due:

  “Whatever Nikki wanted pasta that night, go with books of stamps, pull the guy aside, and say... within 20 minutes, it was in my room.” — Joey Castello [09:33]

• On Italian “gang” values:

  “It’s not a gang. But of all the prison gangs, Italians were the smallest and most highly respected.” — John Kiriakou [17:42]

• On cooking resourcefulness:

  “You break open the single blade razor and take the blade out, and then use the blade to cut the garlic.” — John Kiriakou [21:29]

• On the absurdity of “cafeteria” life:

  “I’ve eaten ass that tasted better than this taco.” — John Kiriakou [01:05]

• On friendship in prison:

  “There are a lot of people in prison who are good and decent people. And those are my friends. And as I hope you now agree, one of those very good and decent people is my friend Joey.” — John Kiriakou [49:34]

Humorous and Human Stories

• Joey’s story about being “adopted” by both the Gambinos and Bananas, not knowing which mafia family to sit with ([15:27]).
• Elaborate schemes to push a problematic, mentally distressed cellmate over the edge so he’d be transferred, involving petty theft, creative vandalism, and culinary pranks using pork salami, climaxing in an epic breakdown ([41:09]-[47:29]).
• Joey’s memory of making a flourless lemon cake from scratch in a garbage pail, appropriating whatever he could ([34:55]).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Institutional Slop & Tales of Dog Food: [00:45] – [03:30]
• Introduction of Joey Castello & Cooking Techniques: [03:47] – [08:25]
• Bartering with Guards and Commissary: [09:07] – [11:04], [27:51] – [29:01]
• Racial and Social Structure at Meal Time: [13:47] – [18:13]
• Recreating Italian Cuisine & “Goodfellas” Experiences: [20:21] – [24:30]
• Homemade Desserts in Prison: [33:57] – [35:09]
• Hooch, Prison Hustles & Absurdities: [29:46] – [31:56]
• Cellmate Antics & Outrageous Pranks: [40:00] – [47:29]
• Lasting Friendships and Reflections on the Prison Community: [47:29] – [50:14]

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Conclusion

Food, Glorious Food! goes far beyond prison meals. It’s a rich account of how dignity and culture survive in the bleakest conditions—one makeshift meal, shared joke, and lived tradition at a time. Through vivid, at times laugh-out-loud storytelling, John and Joey show that even in prison, bonds formed over food become a lifeline and a legacy.

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For more details or to dive into specific stories, refer to the timestamps above.

Transcript

[A]

This podcast, it's a costard and touchstone production. I've talked a lot over the years about food in prison. I hate to even call it food, to tell you the truth. It was slop. On my very first full day in prison, it was a Friday. One of the Italians with whom I became very friendly, Pete calabrese, mentioned offhandedly that it's Friday. That means it's fish day. And I responded by saying, oh, great, I love fish. And he said, oh, don't eat this fish. We call it sewer trout and it's not fit for human consumption. Well, he and I walked down to the chow hall together, and what I saw was something that I'll never forget. The guys in the chow line were slopping the slop onto your tray, but behind them were boxes, boxes of fish. And on the side of these boxes, every one of them, it was clearly marked alaskan cod, product of china Feed use only, not for human consumption. And that's what they were putting on our plates. I looked at Pete. He said, I told you. And so I never, ever, ever ate the fish. I've also talked about another incident that happened about halfway through my sentence where every Wednesday night was so called taco night. And excuse the filthy thing I'm gonna say, I once threw away the entire taco, and the warden saw me throw the whole thing away. And he said, in the old days, you could get written up for that. And I responded, I've eaten ass that tasted better than this taco. What do you do if you can't eat the food? If you won't eat the food, if you shouldn't eat the food, if the food is gonna make you sick? I'm John Kiriakou. Welcome to dead drop. What makes a spy ticket? This is episode 10 in our series doing time like a spy. And as always, we thank you for listening. We thank you even more for liking, rating, reviewing and commenting on the podcast on whatever platform you happen to be listening to it. Prison food is institutional food that other institutional food laughs at. No, that's actually not true. It sneers at it, and with good reason. The prison authorities don't want to spend a single dollar more than they have to fold in a bunch of competing interests, plenty of corruption and greed, and the result is a hellish jambalaya of gastronomic awfulness. There was one incident where for taco night, they accidentally fed us dog food. The reason we know that is that the warden, months after the fact, sent everybody a memo saying, hey, sorry, but a Couple of months ago, on taco night, we accidentally fed you dog food. It's not our fault. The packaging was mixed up at the meat plant. They labeled dog food as ground beef and they labeled the ground beef as dog food. The shame is not even that we were fed dog food. The shame is that we were fed dog food and we couldn't even tell the difference. So what did we do? We relied on people like our guest tonight and Joey Casalo. Joey Castello was one of the finest. I'm going to call him chefs at FCI Loretto. A lot of guys cook. The Mexicans all cook, right? You have a trash can of water. You throw in a live electrical wire called a stinger. It immediately brings the water to a boil. You put some food in a plastic bag. Next thing you know, you've got a gourmet meal. The Mexicans ate to survive. We ate. And I say we. I'm including myself with the. With the Italians. We ate as a culinary experience.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Joey, welcome. Good to have you.

[B]

Thank you, John.

[A]

Joey, walk us through this, man. When I first saw a stinger, I unplugged it. I said, oh, my God, what a health hazard. This is a live electrical. And the Mexicans are like, are you out of your mind? We're making dinner. I didn't know what the heck they were doing. But then when you cooked, when Marco Lanzilotti cooked, it was like being in a restaurant in Little Italy. How did you do that? Walk us through it.

[B]

Well, when I first came to the prison. Let me say this real quick. I didn't know nothing about prison. Just like, you.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So I walked in and this guy comes up to me. I forget his name. A black guy. And he says, what's your name, sir? I said, joey. And I'm thinking to myself, wow, you know, nice people here talking to me. So everybody's laughing, and I'm like, what are you laughing at? He says, we'll tell you later. Just keep talking to this guy. So I'm talking to him. He says, if there's anything you need, Joey, you let me know. And I said, okay. So then I go back to my cell. Three guys come in that were laughing. And I said, can you tell me, why were you laughing? He says, the guy is gay. He wants to pick you up right away because you're new in the prison. Well, the word got out to Peter Calabrese when he found out. He said, joey, stay away from them, guys. If you find a Twinkie or a piece of gum or a Lollipop on your bed. Don't touch it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Okay, Pete. I won't. So I was learning little things here and there. And with the cooking, I knew how to cook on the outside with the stove. But like John said, the stinger, who, what that was. So I bought one one day.

[A]

Oh, you're kidding me. So you, you didn't know what a stinger was?

[B]

I learned watching, Watching everybody cook. I said, oh, okay. But the stuff they cooked was rice and the same thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Cooked pizzas. I cooked manigaudi. I cooked spaghetti, meatballs. John, it was 2:00' clock in the morning. John sound asleep. I said, I'm hungry. I'm gonna cook. I made. I think I made a pizza or minogati, something. I made Italian. So I, I crawled out, I walked to John's room. I said, john, John. He goes, yeah, I'm sleeping. I said, john, I got Italian food. He says, italian food. And he got right up.

[A]

I did, I did.

[B]

Morning. And this went on consistently. We did it all the time.

[A]

Yeah. How about the calzones you used to make? Let me, let me talk about the calzones for a second. So a lot of the Mexican guys used to. Used to cook. And like you said, it was rice. Rice. Rice. Rice with this saison sauce, or not even sauce. It was an orange powder that had no flavor at all. But they sold it in the commissary. And so they would sell these, they would call them calzones. And Pete said to me one day, why do you buy those disgusting things? And I said, oh, they're. They're so. They're so filling and delicious. They got all kinds of stuff in them. He goes, it's not a calzone, it's a burrito. Yeah. Those guys wouldn't know a calzone if it walked up and introduced it itself to them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so I said, you're right. And then you started making calzones. And I said, oh, my God. This is an actual calzone, like from an Italian restaurant made in a trash bucket full of boiling water.

[B]

But wait a minute. We. I, I don't know if you knew this. I never got. I got some of the stuff from commissary. I used to get it from the guards in the kitchen.

[A]

Yes, I wanted to ask you about that.

[B]

Yes, I had a good hookup right there, especially when I got with the. I don't. Can we say names on here?

[A]

Sure, why not? We'll bleep them out later if we have to.

[B]

When I got with Nikki Carrazzo Yes. I had to learn the whole nine yards. Yeah.

[A]

Because Nikki. Nikki was a very, very important person in a. In a certain Italian American subculture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And very important person. And as his status demanded, he got the best of everything, including the best food. Our friend Mark Lanzolotti, who was an absolutely brilliant cook. I once told him, he fed me. It was on my birthday. It was my 50th birthday. He had a big bash for me.

[B]

I remember.

[A]

Remember that? I told my wife that night. It was the first time I had smiled in nine months.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And oh, my God, how we laughed our heads off that night. But he made this gourmet meal. And the very first thing he did, and he did this every time he cooked, is he would pull out all of his Tupperware. He would load the Tupperware with complete meals and send them to Nikki and to Pete and everybody else of that status.

[B]

Yes. They.

[A]

They had a crooked. A crooked guard on payroll who was bringing in everything that we needed. You know, Italian loaves of Italian bread, white wine for the marsala sauce. We got pork loin. We got beautiful chicken breasts and fresh tomatoes and fresh mushrooms and onions and all kinds of stuff.

[B]

But bags and bags of pasta and sauce.

[A]

It wasn't just crooked guards bringing it in from the inside, from the outside. Rather, it was guards working in the kitchen. They're supposed to be guarding the prisoners that are cooking the food. They're actually stealing most of the food or stealing the good food and then selling it to you?

[B]

Well, yeah, that's how it works. And, you know, our money was books of stamps and mackerels.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So whatever. Nikki wanted pasta that night, go with books of stamps, pull the guy aside and say, listen, we want this. We want this with this. Within 20 minutes, it was in my room.

[A]

When did you arrive, Joey?

[B]

2012.

[A]

So you got there just barely before I did. I got there February 28, 2013.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when I first arrived, I was there maybe a week or two weeks, and one of the guards in the kitchen was fired and escorted out. And Pete told me it was because he was allowing prisoners working in the cafeteria to steal food. And that was a very popular side hustle. They would just go from cell to cell to cell selling food for bags of mackerel or books of stamps, but he would allow them to steal the food in exchange for a blowjob that they would. They would blow him, and then they could steal whatever food they wanted. Yeah, they walked that guy out, and they allowed him to keep his pension, which Was not cool at all. But then they tightened things up and I remember they used to frisk us as we would walk out of the cafeteria. Because God forbid you should have an apple in your pocket or, you know, a pat of butter that you want to take back to your cell. How did you get around all that?

[B]

It was easy. It was just given to me all the time. I. I didn't have to walk out with nothing. All how to do. They say, who is this for? I said, nikki, go ahead.

[A]

Done, done.

[B]

And when I brought it to Nikki's room, I was looking for him one day, right? He called Chris. You remember Chris?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Chris came down and said, nikki wants you up there now to cook. It was 10 o' clock in the morning. I said, okay, I'll go start cooking the pasta. While I'm cooking, getting everything ready, the peppers, the onions, the oil, everything. So Nikki says, all right, everybody out. I said, nikki, you just called me up here to cook. I'm taking my hour nap, get out and come back in an hour. So I had to put everything away, come back and cook.

[A]

Oh, my God. And when you were cooking in Nikki's room, it was the same as cooking in your own room. We're talking about a garbage bucket full of hot water.

[B]

Brand new, though. Everything he had was brand new. The Mexican, their dirty bucket, the dirt. Yeah, brand new.

[A]

We actually used. And there were four Mexicans in my first cell. Yeah, we actually use that bucket for trash.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they would just pull the trash out, fill it with water, throw the stinger in and make food.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was disgusting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so walk us through. How do you do this? You got the bucket, you fill it with water. And then what?

[B]

You fill it with water While you're preparing everything, you'll put the stinger in,

[A]

tie it, and explain what a stinger is.

[B]

A stinger is wires from an iron or tv, whatever they can get.

[A]

Lamp. Yeah.

[B]

And it's square pieces of metal. They would get it where? The metal makers, they had like a shop in there.

[A]

Yes. Or. Or they'd steal the face plate off the wall.

[B]

So it was two pieces of metal with something in the middle. So you don't get shocked. Well, I never got shocked, but let me tell you, every time they raided us, they took my stinger and I. I said to the guard, I said, I just want to tell you, you know, I cook for Nikki. Everybody in the prison knows, okay, we won't take your singles no more. So then other guards would come, they would take it because they didn't know. I had 26 stingers after they let me. Had stingers in my locker and I had them on the shelf wide open. Nobody touched nothing. The respect we got because of Nikki.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I would just like to go on. I want to say something before we get into anything else. When I first came into prison, like I said, I didn't know nothing. I was sitting with the blacks, eating. You know, I had the black, the black side, right? Yeah.

[A]

We should say in the. In the cafeteria, all African American inmates sit on one side.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Every one of them on the other side. It's divided. And we talked about this in the past. The front table is what are called the good guys. That's white guys. Most of them are Aryans, White guys convicted of crimes that have nothing to do with child sex crimes. And then the next table was Italians on the one side and Native Americans on the other. And then behind them were all the pedophiles and the rats. They had to sit together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So go ahead.

[B]

So I had colored guys when I first came to prison and myself. So they liked me. You know, joke around. And I was the only Italian or white person to say the N word to them. You know how they all say. I was the only one to say that. Anybody else, they would shank them. Yeah, they loved me. I, I just. I'm. I'm that kind of person. Like, I, I me and you bond it real quick.

[A]

Immediately.

[B]

Yeah. So anyway, they said, you come sit with her. I said, okay. Now, I don't know nothing. I see all these people. I'm there for like two weeks, three weeks, eating there all the time. So then finally Nikki says, what are you doing sitting over there? I said, nikki, I just got the. I just got here. I don't know much. He says, from now on, you're over here with the Gambinos. You're with us.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I said, okay. So then I'm Pete Selly now. He says, joey, no, no, no, no. You. You're not with the Gambinos. You're with the bananas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I said, pete, I don't know which way to go now. I don't know.

[A]

You know, Pete said the same thing to me. I was sitting with the Aryans, only because the Aryans told me to. And then Pete said to me one day, we were walking out ourselves, were directly across from each other, and we were walking out, and he said, let me ask you something. Why do you sit with those Nazi retards in the cafeteria? Those were his exact Words. And I said, I don't know, Pete. When I first arrived, they told me, sit with them. And then very dramatically, he puts his finger in the air and he says, from today, you're with the Italians. And then I sat with the Italians the whole rest of the time I was there.

[B]

When you first started sitting at the Italian tables with us, Nikki would always go, I know he lives next door to you, across the hall. Is he all right? You sure, Joe? He's all right? I said, yeah, Nikki, he's good. I vouch for him. He's good. You. You don't know the stuff he asked me about you.

[A]

I. I believe it because he asked Mark Lanzalotti exactly the same question. He was genuinely worried because the guy didn't know the difference between the CIA and the FBI.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And he was afraid that I was a cop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And Mark told him. He said, the FBI are cops and rats. The CIA protected us from the Muslims. That's what he told him. And then I was okay after that.

[B]

I said, he's a good guy, Nick. He's a good guy. He says, all right, then. He's with us. I said, all right. We're made men now, Johnny.

[A]

Seriously, right? I felt like I was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll tell you, man, that was a community, the Italians. I say all the time that the Italians in prison for stupid reasons are considered to be a gang. They even have their own suffix on the prisoner number 047. If you're 047, that means you're mob, and it's not fair, right? But anyway, it's not a gang. Anyway, let's. Let's pretend for a moment that it is, right? Of all the prison gangs and. And there. These are major gangs, you got the Crips and the Bloods and the Latin Kings and the Burachos and the nortenos and the MS.13 and this one and that one and the other one. The Italians were the smallest and the most highly respected.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that was hands down. There were no exceptions to that. The Italians were universally respected. And another thing, too. The Italians were the only gang in air quotes that didn't have a shot collar. And they didn't have a shot collar because they didn't need a shot collar. You had made men at any given time. There were six, seven, eight of them. And they did everything by consensus.

[B]

And we would all have to sit with them, with the made men. And if something was to go on, if somebody wanted to beat somebody up or everybody would agree that's how it worked in There.

[A]

That's right. That's exactly right. I. I genuinely liked and respected them. Yeah, I'll tell you a funny thing, too. I was. I was an expert witness in a trial last week. I was an expert witness for the defense, and this poor guy was charged with six felonies, all six of which carried a mandatory sentence of life without parole. And I testified on his behalf. He had a public defender, and in. In the cross examination, all the U.S. attorney wanted to ask me about. And he was mean about it and aggressive. All he wanted to ask me about was the Italians at Loretto. And that was I with the Italians. I said, you bet I was. And you said that they were honorable. And I said, and they were honorable. They're all convicted murderers. I said, I don't know what they were convicted of. It was none of my business. I can tell you that in my dealings with them, they were all honorable to a man, every single one of them. In fact, I'm still friends with a lot of them because they were honorable. And so in the end, I'm very, very proud to say this, the guy was found not guilty on all six counts last week. Yeah, all six counts. That doesn't happen very often.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

But anyway, I want to get back to cooking.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You've got this pipeline of real food, actual food. Well, it's not like you're sitting in your. In your bunk reading out of a cookbook. So how did you know what to make? How did you know how to plan what to make? And what do you do if you're halfway through a meal and you're like, oh, crap, I don't have any tomatoes or mushrooms or chicken breast or whatever. What do you do?

[B]

I always had it. We always had it. I. I never was out. Nothing. I. I don't know even what to say. We just. It was there. It was there, whatever we needed. Just like the movie Goodfellows. That's how we.

[A]

Yeah, I say that all the time, Joe. That scene in Goodfellas was 1000% true. We would shave the Vario is, saving the. The garlic and that it liquefies in the oil. They ran that scene because it was true. And that's how we cooked every single day.

[B]

And I'll tell you what, the Mexicans would use their ID cards to cut. We had razor blades. Yeah,

[A]

I remember you. Every month for the. For the prisoners who were too poor to afford commissary, they would give you a. What did they call it? The. The. The bag to keep yourself clean. What do you. What they. They had a name for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, it included a disposable single edge razor. And I remember you breaking. You're very strong. I. I should add. I mean, we're all 10 years older now, but. Yeah, but you're very strong. And I remember you breaking open the single blade razor and taking the blade out and then using the blade to. To cut the. The garlic.

[B]

That's how I started with the blade. I. I don't know this guard's name. I forget his name. White guy, he had long hair.

[A]

Oh, I remember him. He was a cool guy. I liked him.

[B]

Yeah, I remember him walk by and I. I heard the keys and the chains. I said, I hide my stinger. He says, no, Joey, it's just me. You don't have to hide it. So he saw me with the little blade. You know, the little single blade. You cut yourself with it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He says, wait till tomorrow. I had packages of big razor blades.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

I said, are you telling me to go. Go whack somebody or something? Oh, you cook with this.

[A]

I liked him.

[B]

So with cooking, it just comes to my mind. I can't even explain it. I mean, if I wake up and Nicky wanted pasta or whatever, I. I would make whole. I would make the homemade sauce. I mean, they would bring me scratch. Yeah. Cans of tomatoes, the paste, olive oil. It was amazing. And I'll tell you what. If I. If I didn't have nowhere to live like these boys, bums that love prison, I would have stayed. I would have stayed in there, tell you the truth. Because I. If you ever go to prison, I know you don't want to go to prison, but if you ever do anybody. Federal prison. Go to federal prison.

[A]

Yeah, go to federal prison. I remember, I've said this. I'm going to say another. Not very nice word, but I remember three guys sitting in the TV room playing cards. One day, it was the middle of the day, so everybody was away at work. Call. I had a no show job.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thanks to the Italians, I had a no show job. I. I walked in there for some reason, and they were playing cards and. And they were in between hands. So the dealer was shuffling the cards, and one guy put his. His hands behind his head. He kind of kicks back and stretches. He looks around and he says, I got a warm bed. I got free medical care. I got tv. I got three meals a day.

[B]

No bills.

[A]

He said, if we had, this would be paradise. And I remember thinking, oh, man, you've been inside too long, buddy. But they weren't even Eating like the Italians were eating. We got to the point, Joey, and I'm sure you remember this, my sentence was short. I was in 23 months. The last six or eight months that I was in, I never went to the cafeteria.

[B]

Yeah, I never did either.

[A]

There was no reason to.

[B]

Only on certain things, like a pizzas were pizzas, whatever.

[A]

One night a week was pizza, one night a month was pizza night. Yeah.

[B]

And let me tell you, we had trays and trays of pizza trays they brought out. When Nikki was there, they brought out a whole big. It was like a pizza tray with pizza stacked. Everybody's looking at us like, wow. Yeah, we didn't have dough. That's the only thing we didn't have, pizza dough. Yeah. So we would use the wraps, you know, the big wraps the Mexicans would use. So I said, let me think of something here. These wraps are kind of small. Maybe it looks like a single pizza. So I would lay four or five of them down and I would. It would come out to a big pizza, a large pizza. So with the garlic, I would chop the garlic. Like on Goodfellows. Yep. And I had a piece of metal and you would put olive oil on the metal. It was like a little cup. And it would heat up and you would put the garlic in it and it would cook, would saute it. And the sauce, I did the same. I used the cans of tomatoes. I heated it up. You put it in a plastic bag, you put it in the water, you tie the bag, close the bag, and it steams. And let me tell you, the smell from my food. Everybody would come to my cell. If I was gonna sell it in there for cash, I'd have been rich today. Yes, the whole prison smelled like it. Oh, Joey's cooking. Joey's cooking. But let me tell you, sometimes I did sell stuff. I said, me, let me sell stuff too.

[A]

If you're enjoying Dead Drop, and of course we hope you are, then while you're waiting for new episodes, I'd like to suggest another great granular story podcast from the Costard and Touchstone family. Just the photographer with David Swanson does for photojournalism what Dead Drop does for spies. Pulitzer prize winning photojournalist David Swanson tells you stories. His amazing news photos. Just can't what it felt like being in all those dangerous places like war zones and natural disasters, doing his job, taking pictures. Having been to a few war zones myself, I can tell you this. Just the photographer will put you right there on the ground right next to David inside His head. In fact, it's a hell of a podcast and you can find it wherever you find your favorite podcasts or at costard and tucker touchstone.com There's a link in this episode's show notes. In fact, you'll find lots of great story podcasts at Costard and Touchstone, like the Donor, A DNA Horror Story, the Hall Closet, Sage, Wellness within, and the how not to Make a Movie podcast. Who knows? Your next favorite podcast might be just a click away. Now back to Dead Drop. I was next to a cell. If you, if you're, if you come out of your cell and, and your back, your cell is to your back. And I'm on the right in front of you. The guys on the left in front of you, they were mostly Mexicans and their hustle, their hustle was to steal meat from the cafeteria. They mostly stole chicken. And then they would go sell to sell every day. Selling chicken or selling eggs. They sold a lot of eggs.

[B]

Bag. They would put it.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. They, they put it in plastic bags. So is that how you got your meat too? Was it just from the, from the cops in the kitchen or were you getting outside meat as well?

[B]

I was getting, I wasn't getting it from any. From the, the guys in there. I was getting it from either the guards or the, the prisoners that worked for the guards. So they had good stuff. We had.

[A]

That's what I thought.

[B]

Beef, turkey. As soon as I got it, I put it on ice. So it was good.

[A]

I remember a lot of guys buying those scrawny, bony chickens.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From the chow hall and just keeping it on ice and then cooking it in the, in the afternoons. We didn't eat those bony. I mean, you could really get a

[B]

broth, spread it up and make something. I don't know what they mean.

[A]

I, I used to sell my. I, I used to sell my chicken. We got chicken like every Tuesday at lunch or whatever it was. I used to sell my chicken for a bag of tuna to some guy that was like on this protein only diet. He was trying to work out and build muscle, whatever. And he would buy my nasty chicken every, every week.

[B]

He'd buy the tray. The whole tray?

[A]

Yeah, he'd buy the tray. Exactly. And then I'd go back to my place and eat your food or go to Mark's and eat his food.

[B]

Yeah, we had some big bowls of food. I remember the parties. Everybody bring your bowl.

[A]

Joey. I used to say I gained 35 pounds in prison.

[B]

So did I.

[A]

35 pounds. I remember you And I talking about it because you showed me a picture of yourself one time and it was like, you know, Mr. Mr. Olympus, Mr. America competition. And then all of a sudden we got these bellies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From all the pasta we're eating.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And. And the warden said to me one time, he said, you. Hey, you're sure putting on a lot of weight. I said, what are you, my Taylor? My warden?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then he walked away.

[B]

Yep. The only thing I didn't want to make in there was the hooch.

[A]

No, I never messed with it.

[B]

No. I wasn't smoking cigarettes. I wasn't doing nothing. You'd go to the hole for three months for that.

[A]

Something stupid not worth it. I remember the hooch. It was mostly the Native Americans would make it. They would steal fruit from the cafeteria and then ferment the fruit and make moonshine out of it. A couple of the black guys did too. They would hide it in the, in the drop ceiling of the TV room so that it wasn't tied to any one person. But do you remember they. They found hooch in the drop ceiling during the NBA playoffs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they shut the TVs off. That was the punishment. Everybody got punished. Nobody was allowed to watch basketball for the week.

[B]

Well, I don't know if you remember this. Somebody hid the hoot somewhere and it was. The bag popped. And I don't know if it was the warden's office or somebody's office that worked there that was high ranked. All the hoots went down in that person's office.

[A]

Oh my God. I don't remember that.

[B]

They locked down. Might have been before you came. The whole, the whole place got locked down. But they found out who did it. But imagine how stupid that person was to put it over.

[A]

Yeah, that's really stupid.

[B]

And the people who made the hoots are the people who had long sentences because what, they didn't care?

[A]

Yeah, they didn't care. And it was like the, the guys that just had to have a cigarette. I know I'm getting off the subject of food, but the guards, in violation of, of, you know, all the rules, would chew tobacco and then they would just dig into their lip and fling the tobacco onto the ground. And guys, yeah, guys would collect the chewed tobacco, dry it out in toilet paper, and then sell it for a Mac.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people would smoke previously chewed chewing tobacco rolled in toilet paper because they so desperately had to have a cigarette. Yeah, gross.

[B]

Yeah, I was a heavy smoker with cigarettes. I didn't smoke nothing in there.

[A]

No.

[B]

But the minute I got out. I don't know. I bought a pack.

[A]

So how is you've got a successful restaurant right now, a successful pizzeria, you post on Facebook pictures of your beautiful food.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How different is it now from when it was in there?

[B]

Well, different is I can walk out to the refrigerator and I asked nobody except my wife. She's the boss too, so. But it's just. It was a. A really experience in there. Yeah. But I am, me. Me and you and the rest of the guys, we had a good. We had it good in there.

[A]

Yeah. I hate to say that. You know, people ask me every once in a while if I miss it, and I say, absolutely not. I don't miss anything about it at all. Nothing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then, you know, when I'm sitting here with Joey or I'm sitting with Mark Lanzellotti.

[B]

Good times.

[A]

Or Brent. Yeah, we actually. We made it okay for each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I used to go down to Marx Cell almost every night because he was cooking every single night. And of course, he would give me. Just like you did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like two or three times more food than I could possibly eat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I'd eat until I was full and then I, you know, go for the second seating two hours later and eat again and put on those 35 pounds. But the food was so good. I told you this and I told Mark that I would. I would spend $35 for this in an Italian restaurant outside. That's how good it was. You more than. Mark made desserts on top of it. How in the world did you make dessert? And what desserts did you make?

[B]

I made cannolis one time for. He couldn't believe it. He thought, where'd you get these? From the outside. I said, no, Nikki, I bought. They had these little cookies and commissary, but they looked like a shell and it looked like an Italian pastry. Yeah. So I. I said, let me see what I need for this. Now I gotta ask the guard. So I need a heavy whipping cream, some kind of cheese, and I don't know, something else within. I say a day or two. He brought it to me and I just. I couldn't. There. I would taste it and I. This tastes like canoli. So whatever made the canolies.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

We make cakes. Remember the cakes?

[A]

We made the cakes. I remember that.

[B]

John, the cakes we made, they were like store bought cakes. They were.

[A]

They were like store. But you made, you. You made a flourless cake one time. Yeah, it was like a lemon cake or something like that. That Was ridiculous. I was like, dude, you made this in a garbage pail.

[B]

We even got lemons and we even got lemons.

[A]

That's right. You made lemon cake from scratch. Have you adapted any of those crazy, those crazy recipes to, to what you're doing now?

[B]

Not really, no.

[A]

It actually wouldn't make sense. It would be kind of depressing.

[B]

I tell you, I go on tick tock sometimes and I see these people that just got out of prison and they're, they're showing their family, this is how we in prayer and they're cooking just like they. He would have a stinger and everything. I, that, I would never do that. Bring that outside and do that. You know what I mean? He would kitchen at home with a stinger in the plastic bag in the garbage pill. Yeah, I, I don't want to go that.

[A]

No, no, that's. That's nuts.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, you don't want to do that.

[B]

But not to change the subject, but I just gotta say again, when I first walked in the prison, two guys came to my room. One was Chris and I don't know who the other one was. Nikki wants to see you. I said, okay. So I walked up to Nikki's room. There was like four or five guys. I said, oh, man. To myself, what's going on? Well, Nikki says, sit down on this chair. I sat down. Now the guys are standing here. Nikki's behind me. All of a sudden, he puts his hand on my head and he goes like this. He goes. I said to myself, I said, I think I'm gonna get something shanked or something's wrong. Should I run or what should I do? He goes, you're lucky I like you, Joey. You're lucky I like you. I said, nikki, yeah, it was, it was crazy stuff that went on there.

[A]

Yeah, he, he was, he was a very important and very scary guy. I'll tell you, one of the things that I learned really quickly hanging out with the Italians is you never ever wanted somebody to say about you. You believe this guy. Then you knew you were on the list. Yeah, yeah. No, you never wanted to be this

[B]

guy who was Nikki's cellmate. The old guy.

[A]

Yeah, I remember. It was.

[B]

Oh, I can't remember.

[A]

Gate.

[B]

I just. I don't know. I can't remember.

[A]

Gaetano is. Gaetano was his name. He went by gate.

[B]

The old guy?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, the old guy.

[B]

Jake. Remember Jake?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

The old man. Let me tell you a quick story. He was going back. He had life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He was a high ranked mobster too. Upstate New York. Yep. That life. So one day, we're all in a room, eating. He says, guys, I'm going back to court. I'm gonna overturn my life. We're like, now he's. He's 72 years old, saying this, Jake, we're so proud of you. All right, let us know what happens. So he goes to court, comes back, he goes, I did it. They overturned my life. They gave me 50 years.

[A]

I remember that. Yay. Only 50 years. Hey, there was one guy from upstate, I won't say his name. He asked me if I would write his appeal. He had 30 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I said, sure. Let me see your case papers. We'll figure something out. I'll write your appeal. Listen, I did what they convicted me of doing. I killed a guy. Don't get me wrong. He says, if I could, I'd dig him up and kill him again. But 30 years, it's not reasonable. I was like, oh, man, that's not the right attitude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's next for you? You. You've got the pizzeria. You've moved. Actually, you lived in. In Connecticut.

[B]

Yeah, Connecticut.

[A]

Moved down in North Carolina.

[B]

So.

[A]

So what's next?

[B]

I'm older now, 58 years old. I just turned that June 27th. I'm gonna stay here. I. I have a wonderful wife. My mom has dementia.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Lived here, so that's why I came down, because she. Something was wrong with her. We didn't know what it was. Then I came down and found out she had dementia.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Took her in with me. I will not put her in a home, John.

[A]

No, you're. You're a good son.

[B]

And we live here now. I do my very best. I'm the only child, so she took care of me all them years.

[A]

That's right. That's right. I forgot you were an only child.

[B]

Yeah. Now it's my turn.

[A]

Yeah. Yep.

[B]

But I'm happy to be out. I'm happy to be out of New York, Connecticut. Here is so peaceful.

[A]

North Carolina is nice. Very nice.

[B]

Oh, wait a minute, John. You know, we forgot you're Selly. I don't know if we could bring that up.

[A]

Which one? Oh, that crazy guy, the Afghan John. Oh, my God.

[B]

You got to do something with this guy, Said John. Just go out to the yard.

[A]

His name was Cher. He had his arm blown off by an IED in Afghanistan. This guy was certifiably insane. Any psychiatrist in America would have certified him as insane. Yeah, because we knew he was insane. We plotted to push him over the edge just to get him transferred to another prison and be rid of him. You were a major part of that operation. My bunky was Frank Russo. He was the auditor general of Cuyahoga County, Ohio. And he was actually arrested while he was running for governor of Ohio.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He would have won. Frank was a natural politician. But Frank said something when you and I finally pushed him over the edge and he lost his mind. They took him to solitary, and then they sent him to another prison. Frank said, thank God we finally got him into solitary because I was going to take a poop in his boots.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he meant it literally. He was literally going to poop in the guy's boots. You did something to him that was so funny that 11 years later, I still laugh about it when I think about it.

[B]

Tell the story, John. You say it better.

[A]

Oh, my God. So this guy was nothing but trouble. He had no respect for anybody's property. He had no respect for anybody's space or time. You remember how hot it was in our housing unit because we had no windows.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so they had these gigantic fans, and he would just, like, pull his pants down and air out his balls in. In front of the giant fan. And we're like, dude, you're going to get shanked doing that. Right. Nudity is unacceptable in prison. And you're just standing there airing out your balls. So we started doing things, just messing with him. And making a long story short, what you came up with was so freaking hilarious. He was a very, very pious Shia Muslim. I mean, it's kind of a disconnect being very, very religious and being very, very child molester.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, yeah, it's incongruous. Who. Who could explain it? So anyway, he had this prayer rug that was his pride and joy. It was, like, the only possession that he cared about.

[B]

John. I used to get sick of him, seeing him kneeling on that rug, choke him every day.

[A]

John.

[B]

John. And you were so upset. I said, we got to do something to this guy. I said, go to the yard. I'll take care of this, John. Okay.

[A]

You did. You took care of it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You made me look completely innocent. Because it was out at the yard, Everybody thought that I was the one doing this stuff, and I was doing

[B]

a lot of it.

[A]

But what really pushed him over the edge was you. So the guards were watching me?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They were going to catch me torturing this guy?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Figuratively speaking. I went out to the yard to kill time and. And walk around. And you took every locker first? Yeah. You stole you stole everything out of his locker. All of his candies, all of his food, his Diet Cokes. You stole everything. So he open the locker and it's just empty. He lost his mind. Number one. Then you wrote a giant erect dick on the prayer rug. Yeah, Sharpie. And so he tore the bottom. It was on the bottom. The bottom was just plain. It was like a non, non slip surface. He tore it off and threw it away. And then he said something that was so odd to me. He said, at least they didn't draw an asshole. There's nothing worse than the human asshole. Nothing is filthier than the human asshole. Well, that's all he had to say. So I told you. And then the next time he went out to play soccer, you, you, you wrote on it. Asshole, you are. And then you wrote underneath Yoda.

[B]

Yeah, with stuff like that, John, before we killed him.

[A]

Yeah, we were gonna kill him. And then he finally lost his mind. I ran down to the unit manager's office and I said, I said, cher's having a mental breakdown. So he called, well, the cops, sis. They ran up, you could hear the keys jingling from a quarter mile away practically. And. And somebody from medical and they, they cuffed him. He was screaming, swearing. Yeah, he was gonna fuck our mothers, he was gonna fuck our sisters. He was gonna. Us up the ass. He's gonna shove his fist up our asses. And that was the last I heard of him. He was just screaming, screaming these obscenities.

[B]

So they transferred him, right? They got him out of town.

[A]

Yeah, they got him, they transferred out before I left.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

And what? Really pissed. He had these. There were these two cousins or a cousin and a brother in law. They would come like every week and visit him. And nobody told them that he wasn't in the prison anymore. These guys, these guys drove up and came all the way to the prison from Washington and they were like, yeah, he, he, he doesn't live here.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Where is he?

[B]

Well, I don't know.

[A]

New Jersey maybe. I don't know. Oh, those guys were so mad.

[B]

That's in the book too, isn't it? Yeah, the book, right? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, man, we made his life miserable.

[B]

Yeah. I couldn't take that guy no more. We had to get him out.

[A]

We had to for our own mental health. We had to get him out. Even the Muslims would not allow him to pray with them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He was nuts. And he was, he was judgmental and he was cruel. And he would call. He would call because most of the Muslims are. Are black Muslims. They're converts. And he would call them fake Muslims.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I remember.

[A]

Yeah. And you're going to tell these. These totally ripped, stacked, giant black guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That they're fake Muslims and they don't know what they're doing, and they're gonna. They're gonna destroy them. And do you remember what we finally did, or you did you put pork salami under his pillow?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yes. Wait, cut it. You cut it. I remember.

[A]

I did. I cut it. I cut it into slices. And we laid it out under his pillow, and it was there all day. And it was so hot in the summer, we didn't have air conditioning, so it's like 90 degrees in there. We used to soak our bath towels in water.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And lay on our beds with a wet bath towel just to try to cool off. So that salami was. Was. Know. Cooking, fermenting all day under his pillow. And I remember after he freaked out and they took him to solitary, these black Muslims came to the cell and they stood at the. At the entrance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the stain from the salami was on the pillow in the sheets, and one of them said, they done him in with the swine.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Honest to God, if it wasn't for Joey and Mark and Pete, I'm not sure how I could have gotten through it.

[B]

Yeah. Because when you came in, everybody was like, oh, the CIA, the cops. Don't. Don't go near that guy.

[A]

The first, like, four weeks, I kept my distance. I kept my mouth shut, and I went to get a haircut, and Pete was in there getting a haircut, and I just started making small talk with him, and he said to me, listen, I got to tell you, I know who you are. You. And you carry yourself far better than I expected you would. And I said, I appreciate that. I was trying to be as tough as I could. I said, truth be told, I'm not afraid of anybody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which was, of course. But I said, I'm not afraid of anybody. And he said, good, Keep that up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We were friends from then on.

[B]

I still talked to Nikki's main guy there, George. I don't know if you remember George.

[A]

I remember George well, with that raspy voice.

[B]

I talk to him all the time.

[A]

Excellent. And I'm. I'm in constant touch with Mark and with Brett, which came up in that trial the other day. Well, are you brag that you're still in touch with members of organized crime? And I say. I said, yes, I am. And they're Good and honorable men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which was not the response they expected.

[B]

Right?

[A]

They expected me to say, no, no, no. That was a lifetime ago. I said, yeah, I talk to them all the time and. And they're dear friends. And then I turned to the jury. Oh, I'm so proud of myself. I turned to the jury and I said, there was a crooked congressman from Ohio named nye Nye. He was in prison in ohio federal prison on a corruption charge. It did 23 months, just like I did when he got out of prison. He said, nobody goes to prison to make friends. But the friends that I made in prison are lifelong friends. That was true. There are a lot of people in prison who are innocent. There are a lot of people in prison who are guilty but who don't deserve to be in prison. And there are a lot of people in prison who are good and decent people. And those are my friends. And as I hope you now agree, one of those very good and decent people is my friend Joey. Thank you again for sitting in with me, Joey. I think I owe you dinner. A really good one. In our next episode episode, we'll get back to the prison grind. As my outdate approaches, I've got more reason than ever to keep my head down. But you know, it's still prison. Prison rules still applied, and I had unfinished business that needed attending to. A whistleblowing federal prisoner's got to do what a whistleblowing federal prisoner's got to do. Until then, please don't forget to, like, rate, review or comment on the podcast. It really does help.

[B]

Help.

[A]

Until next time, I'm john kiriakou. Dead drop is written by john kiriaku and alan katz. Costart and touchstone productions produces the podcast and john kiriakou, alan katz and nick mechanic are its executive producers. This podcast, it's a costard and touchstone production.