← John Kiriakou's Dead Drop
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- [00:00]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Price and Coverage Match limited by state
- [00:29]
Jake Stauch
law Jake I'm Jake Stauch, co founder and CEO of Cervel. We built Servl to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding password resets, access to applications. My laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. It desperately wants to automate this work and that's why they need Serval. You just tell Serval what you want to automate in plain English and it's built. No drag and drop workflows, no expense of consultants. Employees get unblocked and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters. With Cervel, it becomes the AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run it. We guarantee you'll automate 50% of all tickets and we'll prove it to you in a free four week pilot. Go to servl.com tickets that's S E-R-V-A L.com tickets foreign.
- [01:32]
John Kiriakou
This isn't the end of a fight, it's the start of One Lioness, the critically acclaimed original series from Taylor Sheridan returns August 2nd only on Paramount. Plus. In the new season, hidden networks, foreign operatives and personal betrayals collide. Meanwhile, Jo walks the line between duty and family as unseen forces circle her world, leaving her to reckon with the war that now reaches into every part of her life. Don't miss the new season of Lioness, starring Zoe Saldana, Michael Kelly, with Morgan Freeman and Nicole Kidman. Streaming August 2nd only on Paramount. This isn't the end of a fight. It's the start of One. Lioness, the critically acclaimed original series from Taylor Sheridan, is now streaming only on Paramount. In the new season, hidden networks, foreign operatives and personal betrayals collide. Meanwhile, Joe walks the line between Duke, Beauty and family as unseen forces circle her world, leaving her to reckon with a war that now reaches into every part of her life. Don't miss the new season of Lioness, starring Zoe Saldana, Michael Kelly, with Morgan Freeman and Nicole Kidman now streaming only on Paramount plus this podcast.
- [02:44]
Alan Katz
It's a Costard and Touchstone production.
- [02:47]
John Kiriakou
When your days are as measured as a prisoners are, by which I mean regulated, timed and tightly controlled, you become intensely aware of time and how exactly it's passing or not passing. All prisoners know when their out date is, their release date. With that in mind, prisoners serving long or life terms have to literally change how they think about time. Understand that even though you're living inside a prison with terrible conditions, terrible food, and terrible everything, you have to find a reason to go on. Little creature comforts become super important and super comforting. Long timers can't think of themselves as doing time when time stretches that far into the distant future. Instead, they follow strict daily schedules. They secure the best, most stable and trusted jobs. They engage deeply in hobbies, interests, sports, physical fitness, or even religious faith. Really and truly, they teach themselves how to live differently than they lived before in the prison system. More than a few of these guys spent their first few years raising hell, both inside and outside the prison system. By contrast, there were people like me, short timers, who were counting the seconds. In fact, there's a condition called short timers disease or short timers syndrome. A state of heightened anxiety, impatience, and intense focus on the outside world, making the final weeks feel like they're literally taking forever. In theory, I had a year to go, no time at all, to someone doing 30 years or more, a bright beam of sunlight. To a lifer, everything is relative. I had established myself in the Loretto community as a straight shooter, someone other prisoners could trust as much as prisoners could trust other prisoners. The prison authorities, though still determined to silence me, knew they were outclassed, outgunned and outwitted on a day to day basis. I had my rhythms and routines, but it's prison, right? There were still plenty of ways and plenty of time for everything to go horribly wrong. The easiest, maybe the smartest thing to do would have been to just lay as low as possible. The problem with being a whistleblower is that once you've seen the light, you just cannot unsee it. A whistleblower's moral outrage is almost beside the point. What's key is that the thing outraging their sense of morality is flat out illegal. And someone is getting away with it. The whistleblower can change that. He can stop it. Maybe not all at once, and in one fell swoop, as awesome as that might be, but in time, with more work, and hopefully with the participation of others equally outraged by what they've learned is happening. This growing outrage will achieve a kind of critical mass. Once that happens, all bets are off. Yeah, sure, I could have laid low as if I talked to a woman today. She's a colleague of mine at Bison Media. She's very close to Susie Miles, the White House chief of Staff, and she called to tell me today that Susie Miles told her that I'm never getting a pardon. And I'm never getting a pardon because the only person standing in the way of it, it's not a person, it's the organization, the CIA. The CIA said they don't give a shit about me. But pardoning a CIA officer convicted of a crime would set a precedent that they just don't want to see. What am I gonna do? I have to keep doing things like this so I don't need the fucking pardon. Welcome to Dead Drop. What Makes a Spy Tick? I'm John Kiriakou and this is episode 11 in our series Doing Time Like a Spy. Before we return to fci, Loretto, I want to thank you for listening, subscribing to, rating, reviewing, commenting on and sharing the podcast wherever you listen to it. And if you enjoy the podcast, please check out the other podcasts in the Costa RD and Touchstone family. That family is about to include a brand new podcast called A Spy's Guide, to which we're just putting the finishing touches on it's travel from a spy's perspective, and fingers crossed the first episodes will start dropping a few weeks from now. Want to travel like a spy? Check out the podcast. You'll find a link to it and everything Costart and Touchstone in the show. Notes to this episode Even if I had wanted to lay low that last year at Loretto, I'm fairly sure it would have been impossible. Having seen what lurked on the other side of the looking glass, I was compelled to action, to not let anyone inside get away with anything if I could help it. On the outside, beyond Loretto, moral outrage about America's torture program was beginning to achieve critical mass. More people were talking about it, writing about it, and making movies about it. And the United States Senate was about to enter the conversation. Everything seemed to be approaching that critical mass. And there was me looking around at it, all keenly aware that where Loretto and I were concerned, I had unfinished business. I mentioned in an earlier episode How 2 Cos Tried to Trick me into fighting an Iraqi Kurdish prisoner. That was unethical and it was entirely illegal. Their names? These two COs were Yardley and Graham. Outside of their jobs and lives in Loretto. Neither added up to much. They weren't going anywhere or doing anything significant outside of Loretto, Pennsylvania. They were both small town men living small lives. Except neither seems to have known it. Both were certifiably stupid. But Graham was the elder of the two and the more hapless. He'd claim he knew everything that was going on at Loretto, that he had sources all over the place. The inflatable rat. And that's really what it was. An inflatable rat that Graham kept on his desk made it hard to believe that any prisoner would risk his personal safety to share information with Graham when he was so clearly contemptuous of them. The truth was, Graham knew nothing, including the fact that his wife, also a CEO at Loretto, was getting boned regularly by a Puerto Rican prisoner. That is, until she was caught and fired. Yeah, stupid, hapless and perpetually out of their depth. Finally, one day in the visitation room, things came to a head between us. All inmates are strip searched after each visit with an outsider, family, friends, whomever. I had just been visited by my family and I headed into the strip search room where Graham was doing the searches that day. As I started to undress, I said, so you have butthole duty today, huh? Your parents must be so proud. It must have really struck a nerve. You exhaust me, he said. He literally sighed with exhaustion and said, I give up. Truce. It's your thing, Officer Graham. I will if you will. I've told you about a few of the other COs at Loretto too. Like Sarge, the CO who called me fuckface and then trashed my room. Sarge was easily the meanest, angriest, unhappiest CO at Loretto. A real honor. Having a filthy mouth is one thing. Having one with so little creativity, that is something else entirely. Sarge had that kind of a filthy mouth. Filthy and lame. She had a collection of poorly done tattoos and an epic mean streak. To look at her in the right light, you might start to think. You know, I could see how back in the day, Sarge could have might have been something, but anything attractive had long since faded or abandoned ship. Her life sucked. And now, because you were in the same zip code as her, well, so would yours. I had written about Sarge in one of my first letters from Loretto. About how abusively she spoke to the inmates in her charge. Well, without even intending to, I'd blown the whistle on Sarge. I had accused her of a regulatory violation that should have resulted in a two week Suspension without pay. I was called to the SIS office and asked to swear out a complaint against Sarge, which I absolutely did. Several days later, the warden transferred Sarge out of my unit and reassigned her to a job where she drove a car around the outside of the prison compound while the yard was open for exercise. She remained in that exile for six months. The word was that she never forgave me like I gave a rat's ass. But then her exile ended and she returned as the afternoon shift CO in my housing unit. She called me immediately into the CO office, which was kind of a glass bubble. People could see us talking. Well, I was talking, she was blustering. Quote, don't you dare ever speak to me. Turn your head when you see me. Unquote. I told her, you stay the fuck away from me. Mess with me and you'll regret it for a very long time. Seriously. I knew enough about what Sarge had done to get her completely shit canned. And she knew it. That's why in the end, she left me alone, despite the fact that she could have trumped up any charge she wanted and she could have seen me spend the rest of my sentence in solitary. Instead, she refused to even speak my name. Not that she could pronounce it correctly anyway. But at Mail Call, when I received anything at all, she would just toss it aside. I would have to go pick it up off the floor when Mail Call was finished. Not having her even speak my name made it all worthwhile. Another piece of unfinished business. Finished. Sarge hated all the prisoners at Loretto. She hated most, if not all of her CO workers too, especially the co, all the prisoners called Horseface. One time, Sarge and Horse Face got into a fist fight, an actual fist fight, in the parking lot over a man. And I'm sure he must have been a real prize, too. The whole staff at Loretto behaved like they were living in a soap opera. One female lieutenant had children by three different COs and was collecting child support from all three. The CO wife of another CO got herself transferred to the satellite work camp so that she could have sex with her CO boyfriend while her husband worked his shift in the main prison. As amusing as the staff's sexual antics were, their jaw dropping stupidity was even more entertaining to me. Just about anyone, any group, could practice their religious faith in the prison chapel. There were Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, Rastas, Santerians, Mormons, and a whole bunch of smaller faiths that I had never even heard of until I got to Loreto. Regardless of who they were and what they believed. These faith groups all held their religious feasts in the chapel on whatever appointed day the feast happened to take place. For prisoners, these celebrations were a nice way to reflect, to spend time with friends, and to forget for an hour or two that they were in prison. For Muslims, the most important feast on the calendar is the Eid Al Adha, which marks the end of the Hajj, the yearly Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca in Saudi Arabia. The chaplain had made all the arrangements for that year's Eid. Tables, chairs and food. And then he took the rest of the day off. At sunset, 61 Muslims descended on the chapel for their feast. Ah, but the CEO in charge of the chapel that night was a guy we called Big Dummy. Big Dummy, who really was that dumb, said that he hadn't, quote, heard nothing about no Muslims, unquote, and he refused to unlock the chapel. The chapel inmate employee told him that the chaplain had made all the arrangements and that this was the holiest day in Islam. Fuck the Muslims, was his response. That night, 61 Muslims filed 61 formal complaints against Big Dummy. The next day, the chaplain was back at work. The feast was back on. And as each Muslim worshiper entered the chapel, they had to pass Big Dummy at the door who said to each and every one of them, assalamu alaikum. I'm sorry. Probably the biggest asshole in the entire prison was Lieutenant Gramble. And you know what? I shouldn't even use the word probably. I knew the instant that I met Gramble that I was going to have problems with him. He was tall and thin, with a shaved head and a perpetual grimace and jutting chin that made him look like the cartoon character Dudley Do Right. Unlike Dudley Do Right, Gramble was a bully. He was a provocateur and a foul mouthed sadist. He had worked in and had been forced out of several other prisons. He had sexually harassed a wide variety of women both in and out of the prison. I personally heard him berate an inmate for standing in the hall between moves as, quote, a stupid motherfucking cocksucker, unquote. As I've said repeatedly, that behavior was and is against BOP regulations, but no one was enforcing it. And whenever anyone tried, the cops invariably covered for each other. Laws become useless when the people tasked with enforcing them choose to shit on them instead. The same goes for enforcing them selectively. It's just bad for everyone. Well, on Thanksgiving night 2013, I called my wife to see how the day had gone. During the course of that conversation, I told her about an experience I had had in the commissary earlier in the day, One of the COs had chewed me out for asking for more cup of soups than I was apparently entitled to remember. Oliver twisted, please sir, I want some more. That was me. I asked for one more cup of soup. I told my wife that these COs were all tough guys. When a prisoner couldn't respond to them and when they were sitting behind 2 inches of glass, as part of this quote, just chatting with my wife, unquote, I wondered out loud how tough they might be if I ran into them on the street. In that context, I referred to one of those less tough than they thought cos as a nimrod. I'll repeat, a nimrod. Well, it turned out that Gramble, the biggest jackass in the entire prison, would spend his free time in his tiny office listening to the recordings of my phone calls. This was not shocking news. It was what I'd agreed when on my very first day at Loretto, I had to sign a form acknowledging that I would be monitored electronically. Knowing that and being a spy used to his calls being listened to, I frequently used my calls to plant messages among the idiots on staff. Example, I would tell a friend or my wife, quote, if Cox doesn't get off my back, I'm going to write an article about him and humiliate him in print, unquote. Or an idiot in my room whom I hate stole $100 worth of chicken and has it in a cooler under his bed. I sure hope I don't get in trouble for it. Well, the idiot cos think that they're gathering intelligence. In fact, I was just using them. So on Thanksgiving night, my wife and I hung up at 7:30pm I went back to my room. Count time, as always, was at 9:30 and nobody ever missed count for any reason. But at 9:20pm, 10 minutes before count, a voice came over the prison, Pennsylvania and barked, Kiriakou Lieutenant's office immediately. In prison there are moments when you know that you are fucked. And that's just how it is. My roommates knew I was fucked too. They all looked at me wide eyed. I stuck up my hand and I said, guys, it's been great knowing you. Help yourselves to whatever you want from my locker. Dave, call my wife and tell her I'm in solitary. As I left the unit, one of the few good COs said to me, good luck, buddy. I walked downstairs to Gramble's office, apprehensive but ready to counterpunch. I knocked on the door and went in and said you wanted to see me. I did. He said, can we talk man to man? As I've told you here, that was prison code for I'm going to scream and swear at you and I don't want you to report me. But it also meant, of course, that I could scream and swear at him and he couldn't report me either. So now I was intrigued. Where was this going? He asked. Are you an educated man? I responded. I don't answer rhetorical questions, and I'm not going to play games with you. Why don't you just say what it is that you want to say, man to man? Gramble exploded. Do you think I'm a fucking nimrod? Do you? Who the fuck do you think you are? So that's why I was here, I shot back. I actually don't know if you're a nimrod. You might be. I haven't fully formed an opinion yet. I'm surprised that a private conversation with my wife that had nothing whatsoever to do with you has so offended your delicate sensibilities. That got him going. Now he was shotgunning the stand at attention. He shouted. When a lieutenant is talking to you, you stand. I didn't. Instead I told him, go himself. Piling on. I told him he was nothing, a nobody. He was at best a medium sized fish in a very small pond. You think you're so tough, he growled at me. I'm the one who grew up tough. I got my GED in a youth correctional facility in Philadelphia. Congratulations, I said. Your parents must be so proud. That was one of my favorite insults. Right on cue, he exploded again. You're not the only one who served his country. I did a tour in Afghanistan. Well, thank you for your service, I said. Now he was at his wit's end. A terrible place for someone that witless to be, he told me. I better not hear you criticize another co. And a call to your wife again. Or what? Talk about impotent rage. I reminded Gramble that he needed to bone up on the BOP's regulations and on the US Constitution, too. I told him when I walked through those prison doors, as I had told other COs, I did not give up my right to freedom of speech. I can tell my wife anything I want, so long as it's not a threat, not in furtherance of a crime, and not for the purposes of running a business. I have read the regs and you should too, I said calmly. Another explosion. You need to start acting like a goddamn inmate. What's that supposed to mean? I said. Should I get a tattoo on my face? Should I steal food from the cafeteria? If you mean that I should wring my hands and say yes or no, sir, that is never going to happen. Never. You are not going to institutionalize me if I have to follow the rules, I told Gramble. You have to follow the rules. A voice over the prison PA interrupted us. It was count time. The phone on Gramble's desk rang and it was the unit CO asking if he should count me or if I would be counted in solitary. Count him, Gramble snapped and he hung up the phone. Just go back to your fucking unit, he said from behind clenched teeth. I headed back to my room. The unit CO unlocked the gate for me. He was smiling. I can't believe you survived, Gramble. Nobody survives Gramble. I have a question for you, Alan. As the producer of Dead Drop and a dozen other podcasts, you must deal with a lot of stress. How's your cortisol holding up?
- [22:16]
Alan Katz
Well, thanks for asking, John. For the moment it's doing okay. Having spent my pre podcasting career in movies and tv. TV especially. I kind of thrive on stress. I think you do too.
- [22:28]
John Kiriakou
Most of the time. Actually, yes I do.
- [22:30]
Alan Katz
Well, cortisol is our stress hormone. It's made in our adrenal glands right by our kidneys. Whenever we experience stress, whether it's physiological or psychological, our adrenal glands add cortisol to our biochemical mix.
- [22:42]
John Kiriakou
Cortisol creates our fight or flight response to danger.
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Alan Katz
In healthy people, peak cortisol is reached about 30 minutes after waking up before slowly declining over the rest of the day. Unless stress occurs and your cortisol level jumps up or starts fluctuating wildly.
- [22:57]
John Kiriakou
These days, stress comes from every which way work deadlines, money, even relationships. When your cortisol level stays high because of life, you feel it.
- [23:07]
Alan Katz
You walk around feeling exhausted all day, but then bedtime comes and you can't
- [23:12]
John Kiriakou
fall asleep and you start collecting fat around your midsection.
- [23:15]
Alan Katz
You feel more irritable, more mentally drained, and less motivated.
- [23:19]
John Kiriakou
None of it makes sense. You're doing everything right, but your body just isn't working like it used to.
- [23:24]
Alan Katz
Too much cortisol impacts another important hormone that we rely on testosterone. Our bodies begin to prioritize creating stress hormones over testosterone production. And it's that imbalance that challenges our energy focus, sleep, and physical recovery from exercise.
- [23:42]
John Kiriakou
Most products only focus on one of the two they reduce stress or they boost testosterone production. Mars Men really is different.
- [23:50]
Alan Katz
It uses natural ingredients to support healthy testosterone production while also helping your body manage cortisol level. Getting that balance back, getting it right can get you back to feeling like you did in your 20s.
- [24:03]
John Kiriakou
I like the thought of that. Mars Men is made right here in the USA without any weird stimulants or synthetic hormones and every batch is third party tested.
- [24:12]
Alan Katz
That's how you know the quality is solid. It's not like drinking a cup of coffee. The benefits last throughout the day, including better athletic performance and recovery, better T levels, mood, energy, stamina and better sleep quality.
- [24:26]
John Kiriakou
There's a 90 day money back guarantee so there's no risk.
- [24:30]
Alan Katz
Worst case, you don't absolutely love it. You get your money back. But over 91% of users report higher energy levels. Thousands of guys are feeling the incredible results. Just check out the reviews on the website to see for yourself.
- [24:42]
John Kiriakou
For a limited time, our listeners get 50 off for life plus free shipping and three free gifts at Mengo to Mars.com that's Mengo to Mars.com for 50 off and three free gifts. When you check out after your purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. So please support Dead Drop and tell them that Dead Drop sent you
- [25:08]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state
- [25:36]
Alan Katz
law
- [25:40]
John Kiriakou
if you're enjoying Dead Drop, and of course we hope you are, then while you're waiting for new episodes, I'd like to suggest another great granular story podcast from the Costard and Touchstone Family Just the Photographer with David Swanson does for photojournalism what Dead Drop does for spies. Pulitzer Prize winning photojournalist David Swanson tells you stories. His amazing news photos just can't what it felt like being in all those dangerous places like war zones and natural disasters, doing his job, taking pictures. Having been to a few war zones myself, I can tell you this. Just the photographer will put you right there on the ground right next to David, inside his head. In fact, it's a hell of a podcast and you can find it wherever you find your favorite podcasts or@costardandtouchstone.com There's a link in this episode's show Notes. In fact, you'll find lots of great story podcasts at Costard and Touchstone, like the Donor, A DNA Horror Story, the Hall Closet, Sage, Wellness within, and the how not to Make a Movie Podcast. Who knows, your next favorite podcast might be just a click away. Now back to Dead Drop Me Surviving Gramble was no longer an issue. But would Gramble survive me? That was the question that they should have been asking. Five months later, I applied for a no show job as a hallway orderly. I filled out the form. I bribed the head orderly with three books of stamps, and I waited for the approval. Finally, the head orderly, who was a 75 year old bank robber and a shitty one at that, told me that I had been rejected for the job. It turned out that my buddy Gramble was in charge of the hallways. The head orderly returned my bribe to me. See, there is honor among thieves. And he shrugged. Nothing else to be done. Or was there on March 31, 2014, I wrote a letter from Loretto, ostensibly about life in the prison chapel. I wrote about how nice the chaplains were, how much I enjoyed the quiet there, and how good a job it was, but that I hated how the chapel had become a hangout for pedophiles. I segued into Gramble's denial of my job request and made a copy of the crumpled job application. I recounted the Thanksgiving conversation I had had with my wife. I hit all the highlights. I knew that SIS had a Google Alert on me, just as I'd suspected that they would. They read my letter the moment it was published, which then prompted them to launch an investigation. I don't know where they stuck Gramble for the next six weeks while they investigated, but it was gloriously peaceful. Those six weeks, when Gramble did finally return to the unit, he never so much as made eye contact with me. Just a few weeks before my release, I was called into the unit manager's office. He told me to raise my right hand. Do you swear that the information you're about to give is true and complete to the best of your knowledge and belief? I did. We sat down. He said, tell me about Gramble, wanting me to speak slowly so that he could type every last word. That was the affidavit to my formal complaint against Gramble. Another piece of unfinished business. Finished. There is another bullying CO on my radar who picked on prisoners just for kicks. That was Officer Hera Loretto. Prison wasn't big physically. There was One main hallway and a set of double doors connecting it. With both doors open, the 1400 prisoners at Loretto could travel quickly and efficiently during scheduled moves. And there's an urgency to get from where you are to where you need to be before the scheduled move ends. Remember, it's a ten minute move. But Hera, being stupid, mean and drunk with power, would deliberately open only one of the double doors. That created an instant traffic jam at the doors, with everyone getting angrier by the second. Why do this? Because CEOs like Hera want fighting to break out. Aside from the entertainment value, fights gave the COs a chance to break up the fight, thus looking like tough guys, send guys to solitary, and maybe even get a performance bonus for being cruel. Can you imagine that? I remember wanting to take a swing at them every single time I saw them standing at the locked door, laughing at people as they struggled to squeeze through. One day, my buddy Dave and I were trying to get to the cafeteria for lunch when we got delayed by a locked door manned by Officer Hera. Dave was extremely polite. Do you mind unlocking the door so we're not all jammed up? And that's exactly how he said it. Hera's angry response. Get over here, fella. Fella? I never heard anybody say that since my dad. Well, there went lunch. I decided to wait with Dave in case he needed a witness. After everyone else had finally made it through the door, Hara got right up in Dave's face. Who the do you think you are challenging me? Dave was way nicer than I would have been. He said, I'm not challenging you at all. I'm just saying that it would be easier for everybody if both doors were unlocked. You're being insolent, said Hera. Now, insolent is another one of those code words in this case meaning your ass is going to solitary. To his credit, Dave remained calm while I seethed inside. But the fact that I was there as a witness to anything that went on or went down, that's what kept Hera honest in that one moment. Knowing the game had gone as far as it was going to go, Hara relented. Get the out of here. Now. Hera didn't have anything against Dave personally. For better or worse, Hera was an equal opportunity douchebag. He was a shithead to everybody. One night, Hera was working the midnight shift on our unit while every other CO kept the gate to the unit unlocked. Because why not? Power mad punk Hera kept the gate locked. At 6am, the chow hall opened up to Serve breakfast. Some inmates arrived expecting to find the gate open, which it wasn't. So one of the Mexican inmates knocked on Hera's door and asked him to open the gate. I don't take my fucking orders from you. That's what Hera said to him. The chow call came. Now. He had no reason not to open the gate. Except he didn't. Instead, he put his feet up on his desk and laughed while all the other units headed to breakfast. Finally, after about five minutes, he got bored and unlocked the gate. I heard several Mexicans discuss stabbing him, but nothing ever came of it. My own run in with Hera became inevitable. In June 2014, just after Dave was sent to the Shoe to solitary, I was paged over the loudspeaker to go to the visiting room to see my attorneys. When you have a visit, you go to a door that leads to the small strip search room and you activate a flashing light to alert the visiting room co that you've arrived. I activated the light at 10am the wait time was usually a few seconds to a few minutes. After standing there for 45 minutes, Hera finally came out. What's the delay? I said. I've been out here for 45 minutes. He looked at me with his contempt on his face. I don't answer to you, he said. I'll let you in when I'm ready. Meanwhile, my attorneys had been waiting for more than an hour. Finally, I had had enough of this 20something punk who had never accomplished anything in his life and probably never would. What's your problem, kid? I called him kid, knowing that he would hate it. Insolence. He shouted. That's all I have to say. Insolence. And you're going to the shoe. I laughed. You think I'm afraid of your shoe? You think your solitary is worse than Yemen, worse than Pakistan, worse than Afghanistan? Don't make me laugh. You send me to solitary, it'll be on CNN tomorrow. You really want to go down that road? Hera was on his heels. This is my house. In my house, you do what I say. I shot back. This may be your house, but it's my neighborhood. To be honest, I don't even know where that metaphor came from. I'm still not 100% sure what I even meant by it. But you know what they say. In for a penny, in for a pound. So I went for it. You really want to fuck with me, Hera? Really? You know what I can do to you? I'm not some piece of trash doing 20 years. I'm out in seven months. And I know where you live. For the record, I had no idea where he lived. And frankly, I didn't care where he lived. It was probably some single wide trailer down the street. But it was just enough to make him surrender. He blinked, literally and figuratively, and said, go to your visit. And I never had another problem with him. Evening. Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car.
- [34:18]
Alan Katz
I'll be moving in.
- [34:20]
John Kiriakou
Let's get started.
- [34:21]
Carvana Announcer
Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.
- [34:25]
Jake Stauch
You what?
- [34:25]
Carvana Announcer
Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no, no, no Buyer's remorse. More like buyers rejoice.
- [34:34]
John Kiriakou
I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations.
- [34:38]
Alan Katz
I mean it.
- [34:38]
Carvana Announcer
Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our 7 day return policy@carvana.com this
- [34:44]
Cologuard Announcer
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- [35:18]
John Kiriakou
As my outdate approached, I became increasingly aware that I had plenty of unfinished business outside of Loretto's walls, too. My letters from Loretto and their publication on Fire Dog Lake and in the Huffington Post had helped make Americans aware that our country was lying to us about torture. My whistleblowing was beginning to gain traction. That traction was beginning to get results. On March 9, 2014, I wrote an op ed that appeared in the Los Angeles Times under the headline I got 30 months in prison. Why does Leon Panetta get a Pass? It had been confirmed in December 2013 that former CIA Director Leon Panetta had provided classified information to the filmmakers behind the movie Zero Dark Thirty, a film that insisted that torture got results and helped American intelligence track down Osama bin Laden. That was a lie. The Obama administration insisted that it enforced the Espionage act equally and fairly and never against political opponents. But as one of the people charged under the act, I can tell you, others have done what I did as openly as without similar consequences. Prime example, Leon Panetta giving classified information to zero dark 30s screenwriter Mark Bull. Panetta, at the time, as I said, was director of the CIA in the op Ed I wrote this, quote, the Espionage act, the source of the most serious charges against me, was written and passed during World War I and was meant to target German saboteurs living in America. It was updated once, in 1950, when Americans got to thinking the country was awash in communist spies. The law is so outdated that it refers only to national defense information rather than to classified information because the classification system had not yet been invented. The act states, quote, whoever lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with information relating to the national defense, which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates the same to any person not entitled to receive it, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both. A transcript obtained by the organization Judicial Watch shows that at a CIA awards ceremony attended by Bullshit, Panetta did exactly that. The CIA seems to acknowledge that Panetta accidentally revealed the name of the Special Forces ground commander who led the operation to kill Osama bin Laden, not knowing that the Hollywood screenwriter was part of the audience cleared to hear him speak. But intent is not relevant to espionage act enforcement. U.S. district Court Judge Leni Brinkoma ruled in my case that evidence of the accidental release of national defense information was inadmissible. And she added that the government did not have to prove that a leak of classified information actually caused any harm to the United States. In other words, the act of disclosing the kind of broad information covered by the Espionage act is prosecutable, regardless of outcome or motive. The sensitivity of what Leon Panetta revealed is not in question. The spokesman for the former CIA director said Panetta assumed that everyone present at the speech had proper clearance for such a discussion. When the transcript of the speech was released, more than 90 lines had been redacted, implying that Panetta disclosed a great deal more classified information than the name of an operative. Even the CIA's Office of Security concluded that, quote, the agency's security policy and administrative procedures were not followed in allowing Mr. Bol, a member of the media, access to the classified Bin Laden Operation Awards ceremony. If an intent to undermine U.S. national security or if identifiable harm to U.S. interests are indeed not relevant to Espionage act enforcement, then the White House and the Justice Department should be in full froth. Panetta should be having his private life dug into, sifted and seized as evidence, as happened to me and six other people during the Obama administration when senior National Security official Thomas Drake blew the whistle on waste, fraud and abuse at the NSA in the form of a bungled project that cost more than $1 billion. He wound up buried under espionage charges, all of which were eventually dropped, but only after his life was in shreds. When former State Department intelligence adviser Steven Jin Woo Kim talked to a Fox News reporter about North Korea, he was charged with espionage and his prosecutors were absolved by the presiding judge from having to prove that the information he allegedly leaked could damage US national security or benefit a foreign power, even potentially. If Panetta isn't accountable, while Drake Kim and I have been crucified for harming US national security, all of us accused of or investigated for the same thing, disclosing classified information to parties not authorized to know it, then what does that say about justice in America? Or about White House hypocrisy? The Espionage act should be rewritten to deal with the issues of intent, such as accidental disclosures and real harm done. Until then, it is right and just to charge Leon Panetta. At least with espionage, accidental though his revelation may have been, it's still a crime. If the CIA had hoped their torture program would go away because I had been put away, they were sadly disappointed accountability was coming for them. Things can move at a glacial pace inside our government, especially where oversight is concerned, but more and more
- [41:07]
Cologuard Announcer
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- [41:38]
Jake Stauch
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- [42:38]
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- [43:34]
John Kiriakou
for People inside our government were beginning to realize that our words and our actions had stopped matching and the consequences were now dire. In our next episode, torture and its implications will move to center stage again like a snowball rolling down a mountain. The investigations into the agency's torture program would gain significant speed and heft and then the authority of government itself. It's the whole point of whistleblowing. Until then, thanks as always for listening and for rating, reviewing, commenting on and sharing the podcast. This spy is telling you, please don't keep it a secret. I'm John Kiriakou. Dead Drop is written by John Kiriakou and Alan Katz. Kostart and Touchstone Productions produces the podcast and John Kiriakou, Alan Katz and Nick Mechanic are its executive producers.
- [44:45]
Alan Katz
This podcast, it's a Costard and Touchstone production.