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- [00:01]
Ian
1, 2. 1, 2, 3.
- [00:17]
Evan
In case you're wondering it's alive and well that little habit that you left with me Here in the suburbs where it's hard to tell I got the bell if the bear got me.
- [00:34]
Ian
Know.
- [00:34]
Evan
That it will take me down down the bottom of the wine dark sea Will you be waiting now to bring me around where you do all the dopest cuts down at the bottom of your mystery? Welcome, one and all, welcome, you and I, to the second half decade.
- [01:05]
Ian
Second. Oh, okay, sure, yeah.
- [01:07]
Evan
We're beginning our. We finished our first half decade of Jokerman.
- [01:12]
Ian
Happy 5th birthday to Jokerman podcast. From me to you. From you to me, presumably.
- [01:18]
Evan
And from us, from me to you as well.
- [01:20]
Ian
Yeah, from us, to all you listeners out there.
- [01:25]
Evan
How are you feeling, Ian, about this?
- [01:28]
Ian
I'm feeling great. It's a momentous occasion. I think we tend to rest on our laurels and look back too frequently, but it does kind of feel like a significant milestone to be reaching at this point. It's longer than I've ever worked a job anywhere else, so from that standpoint alone, it's worth remarking upon and congratulating ourselves. I would imagine the same is true for you now.
- [01:55]
Evan
That is true as well. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I haven't worked five years anywhere. But that's all changed now.
- [02:05]
Ian
You have. Exactly. What do you remember about the earliest days of the program of the podcast lo those many years ago at this point?
- [02:18]
Evan
What do I remember? Welcome to Jokerman. My name is Evan and my co host Ian. And this podcast is special. You'll have to be more specific, just.
- [02:37]
Ian
Any sort of, you know, I remember that you were taping from the beach there.
- [02:43]
Evan
Yeah.
- [02:44]
Ian
You know, for the most part in beautiful Malibu.
- [02:47]
Evan
Yeah. My parents one bedroom condo. I was staying there on what I thought would be like. I thought I was going to be back from New York for, you know, a few weeks. What I thought would be a short time, that ended up becoming a longer time. I don't remember how long I had already been there, but yeah, I remember it as a great time because I was collecting unemployment from Italy and just chilling.
- [03:12]
Ian
Wow.
- [03:13]
Evan
Harder than I've ever chilled before. And it was a nice time with my family of like having no pressures. Like it was a gift that I cherish to this day.
- [03:28]
Ian
Okay. So as society was crumbling around you and the aged and infirm all across this country were being consigned to death at the hands of Andrew Cuomo and company, you were just posted, chilling, vibing.
- [03:42]
Evan
It is the Case that, you know, at any given time on this world, there are people who are experiencing abject agony and there are people who are chilling.
- [03:56]
Ian
Yeah, that's true. And fortunately, it sounds like you. You were in the latter camp, at least for most of those early days. You. You also were in the mustachioed camp, which I discovered.
- [04:10]
Evan
Yeah. I forgot that I had a mustache. I forgot mustache existed. I don't know if I'm going back to a mustache.
- [04:20]
Ian
You should try it. I think it'd be fun.
- [04:21]
Evan
Well, you know, I've been thinking about goatee. Would be funny to try.
- [04:26]
Ian
Yeah, I mean, it would be funny. You could really just go for the Billy at this point. You know, just go, chrome Dome, Goatee Billy.
- [04:34]
Evan
Oh, yeah, the Billy.
- [04:35]
Ian
Yeah, the Latter Day Billy.
- [04:36]
Evan
I mean, I'm not like fully bald, so.
- [04:39]
Ian
But you could, you know, if you want to lean into the Billy Joel look.
- [04:44]
Evan
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I could, but I don't think. I don't think so. But you might see me experiment with the goatee. Interesting. In the coming years. Just because. I don't know. Why not? I can.
- [04:57]
Ian
Why not?
- [04:57]
Evan
As soon as I decide it looks repulsive, I can just eliminate it.
- [05:03]
Ian
Yeah, I do a similar kind of thing, just on a. On a smaller scale. Every. Every so often I decide, yeah, I'm just gonna have like kind of a shitty mustache for a couple months. And I'm in one of those phases right now, but, you know, a couple months down the line, I'm sure that'll go away.
- [05:16]
Evan
What was your hair situation at the time of the origins of.
- [05:20]
Ian
I was totally shaved. Yeah, I was, I was. I was Chrome dome, or, you know.
- [05:24]
Evan
Close to it now. That's what I do most of the time.
- [05:26]
Ian
Yeah, I like to do that every so often and, you know, let it come back out. So right now I'm in a. I'm in a stasis period. I'm happy with it.
- [05:35]
Evan
I'm sure this is what people want to hear.
- [05:37]
Ian
This has been Haircut Report. You're too late, mama. Enough. The show, I remember not really starting it with any sense of direction or ambition or purpose or anything. It was really literally just a time wasting exercise for me, as I'm sure you know, many things were for many people at that moment in time. And I mean, it was a good time wasting exercise. Obviously there was quite a bit of excitement in the air about rough and rowdy ways and Bob Dylan's sudden return. So it was well timed from that standpoint. But I did not really expect it to go anywhere I had even started, I think I've mentioned this on programs in the past, but I had done a separate music podcast a couple years earlier with my father, again as just sort of like a time wasting exercise that petered out after three, four months. So I assumed that this would be the same case. And I even remember there was a point in sometime in mid summer we went up to Grace and I, my wife and I went up to Kingston, New York just to get out of the city because we were in the shit there in New York for the first however many months. We had to get out of there and actually stretch our legs for a little bit. And so we weren't able to record for a couple days. We had miss a week of the podcast being put out. This was like right before the Blood on the Tracks episode, I think. And you know, during that process I thought like, oh, you know, maybe this is just where this is gonna end. And we're like, you know, we did this for a couple months and had a good time and maybe we'll hop back on for another episode at some point in the future. But like it might not end up, might not end up moving much beyond that. But to our credit, we stuck with it. We really stuck with it. And eventually at some point we discovered, I discovered at least that people were actually listening to what we were saying and taking us semi seriously. And so it was worth, you know, putting a little time and effort and thought into. And I think, I think the results speak for themselves at this point.
- [07:45]
Evan
I always saw the vision. I don't know about you. I knew from the very beginning this podcast is special.
- [07:53]
Ian
Surely you didn't see this in the, you know, where we are today. You didn't see this from five years. You didn't, you didn't imagine yourself to be both a Billy Joel and Beach Boys podcaster and also have a spin off Bob Dylan bootleg podcast with Steven Hydn. I cannot imagine you dreaming all of that up.
- [08:10]
Evan
Didn't dream that big, but I did feel like basically it could, it could happen, such a thing could happen because not, not just because, you know, I felt like you and I were a great duo and uniquely suited for this task. But I thought, okay, well this is, and this is a major part of like the whole project, like core idea was just like, this music is so worth talking about and it's so not being talked about in the way that, in any sort of way that's not like for like scholars, self professed scholars on the subject that it just kind of couldn't fail. Like, the subject being Bob Dylan was like, just so he's so famous that, like, to have any kind of.
- [09:06]
Ian
He's so famous. We should have picked Taylor Swift in that case, or Sabrina Carpenter.
- [09:10]
Evan
But he's the perfect amount of famous where it's just like, everybody knows that name. Everybody knows who he is, basically. But then there's like so much stuff that is just kind of like. Like, how can it be that somebody's that famous and yet like a huge percentage of what their output is, is not talked about? Like, that wouldn't happen for a Taylor Swift. That doesn't happen for someone who's that famous. But like Bob Dylan, arguably, you know, culturally, we're getting to a shifting point, maybe, but culturally, anyway, more important, the Taylor Swift. And not. Not studied, not taken as like a. A point of interest in the same way. I just knew that that was like, there was so much to squeeze out of it. And also when we were doing it, I think that the. The basic attitude at the start was just like really embracing wandering into the darkness of, like. I do not know what I think about these records really, and allowing every thought to come up as it did, including, you know, deriding or scoffing at albums. That. That was not the point either.
- [10:36]
Ian
Yeah, I think that. I mean, I think that we. I certainly. You know, the concept of Jokerman mindset, which, you know, has taken on a life of its own. Fortunately, I don't think really existed for the first however long in the show. I don't even remember. I'm pretty sure I was the one who first said it, but I don't remember. I think it was maybe like 18 months or two years into the show, and at that point it was like giving a name to something that we had already kind of embraced without actually defining or explicitly naming. But I think it did take time for us to figure out, like, what the. Like what the purpose of actually talking about this stuff really was. Because there was a reason, you know, there was. You're right in that, you know, there was a lot of juice to squeeze from that limit. And there was something important there that wasn't being engaged with, at least in the way that, you know, I think that we have engaged with and that I think a lot of people enjoy it, being engaged with. But it. I mean, listen to some of those early episodes. Listen to some of the takes that we have there. Not takes that we would necessarily be repeating here today. But even that, I think, is part of what has happened here in the show is a willingness to sort of shoot from the hip and call it like we see it, while acknowledging at the same time that we're probably not going to see it this way six months from now, six weeks from now, six hours from now, even, because, you know, these artists in particular and the types of music that they make are so weird and exciting and unexpected and potentially, you know, occasionally, like, just, like, baffling, that you can't help but evolve with it and change with it over time and come to see it in a different light. And so I think I've been proud of our ability to. Our willingness to say what we think whenever at the time about a given subject, but then, you know, completely disown that opinion a couple months down the line when it's an opinion that we no longer hold.
- [12:50]
Evan
Yeah. If there's any novel thing we've brought to the field of music criticism, I do think it's just, like, being pretty in the moment in that way. Like, you. You don't see that as often, and it's because of the medium of podcasting that I think it's, like, able to be that way of being, like, just potentially very wrong, even just by your own standards, as you say something about a work of art and then next week you just get to talk about, like, well, I don't know, maybe even the next day you're just like, I'm not sure about that. Whereas in the old days, you know, you had to chisel in stone what you thought about this or that, and then you just had to die feeling like, oh, my God, like, I didn't. I didn't give down in the Groove, really. A fair shake for being the. The self portrait of the 80s.
- [13:56]
Ian
Down in the Groove. Still a good record. I like that record, Shin.
- [13:59]
Evan
And I have to say that that take I saw in. I've mentioned this before, but, like, I picked up one of those Time magazine special editions that they hash out all the time of, like, it was Bob Dylan and there was like, a mini. Like a speedrun of Jokerman in it, where it's like every album with a blurb. And the one about down in the Groove called it the sort of said, like a ramshackle Self portrait for the 80s, which I was like, actually, that's pretty much the best way to frame that.
- [14:34]
Ian
Yeah, I think it's a generous way to frame it, but not in an inaccurate way to frame it.
- [14:38]
Evan
It's how I'm down to frame it these days.
- [14:41]
Ian
Sure, why not? You know, it's good record, good music on there. Yeah. I think that the medium itself, the podcasting form, definitely lends itself to a little more flex and, you know, lack of seriousness. I don't mean in one regard, you know, because I think both of us take this very seriously, certainly at this point. But, you know, I think we're a little less precious and like, committed to any particular point of view at any given time. Which is not to say that we don't believe, you know, what we're saying, obviously. But, you know, I think what I'm reacting to, or what I have been reacting to, and I hope Jokerman is sort of a reaction to, is the type of music criticism that you and I were raised on, which obviously, I mean, we come back to it all the time, but it's Pitchfork 100 point decimal scale system. It's, you know, the Metacritic, you know, conglomeration of all the different review sites and creating an average out of all that the Rotten Tomatoes type thing that, you know, the pitting all this stuff against itself, which really, yeah, it's fun and it's a good way to kind of frame things. And obviously it leads to a lot of impassioned discussions, but ultimately it's just sort of a hollow way of looking at, you know, art in general, at least the kind of art that we tend to focus on here. And so I think that not only the literal kind of conversational, easy come, easy go flow of these discussions is part of the step forward, or at least step away from what we're used to, but also the general kind of attitude and flexibility. Yeah, I'll also just shout out the community. He's a major part of the show at this point.
- [16:40]
Evan
Yes.
- [16:40]
Ian
And I do think that Bob Dylan was uniquely well suited to begin for any number of reasons, several of which you've already expressed, but also one reason which is that people, the Bob Dylan online people, will just listen and pay attention to anyone saying anything about Bob Dylan. And I think that got us a foot in the door in many ways. Not because you or I had any sort of notable presence or because we were the greatest people to ever do this in history, but because literally we were just talking about the perfect subject that has such an incredibly passionate and dialed in online fan base.
- [17:17]
Evan
Yeah. As we've seen, people will pay us money to just to listen to an episode where then they reply that they hated it, but they listen to the whole thing like, God bless them. And also, I mean, yeah, Bob Dylan. I have to just say, like, I had this experience. And we talked about it after seeing a complete unknown. But, like, it's possible to literally survive on the star radiation, the supernova, leftover stardust of this one man. That impression left on the world is so unique and intense. That's just miraculous. I mean, not that we don't have something to do with it, too, I'd like to think. But mostly it's just the effect of art upon the world that is the engine powering this program.
- [18:22]
Ian
Sure, yeah. Jeff Rosen, give us your address. We'll cut you a check for some royalties on this whole program. Yeah.
- [18:31]
Evan
All of it.
- [18:33]
Ian
But I do think once we did get our foot in the door again through Bob Dylan, just being Bob Dylan, I do think that the show really kind of took on a life of its own. And a large part of that, a lot of that has to do with the really thoughtful and engaged and fun and funny community that has grown up around the show. Because I think that the opportunity to kind of talk back with one another and engage with what other people are thinking and do it not in, like, a social media flame war type of thing. Right. Or, like, talking shit about one another, but just like, kind of having a similar relationship that you and I have here on the show, you know, with the people who listen, like, that's been such a rewarding and enjoyable part of this whole thing. You know, everyone always talks these days about how alienating and fucked up and miserable online is. And to a large extent, I agree. But really, I mean, I, like, I just get lots and lots of enjoyment out of being online and being able to, like, you know, shoot the shit with people around. The subjects that we talk about on the show, whether it's, you know, on Twitter or Instagram or in the Patreon comments on Discord, dms, whatever. It's like, it's a really enjoyable and rewarding aspect of this whole thing.
- [19:52]
Evan
Yeah, I mean, I've never had, like, an argument with anybody who is a listener to the show, like, ever. It's always.
- [20:01]
Ian
We've had a couple haters who pop up.
- [20:02]
Evan
Yeah.
- [20:03]
Ian
But they're not gonna go on their way pretty quickly.
- [20:05]
Evan
Yeah, they don't even. They're not real fans of. Of the music or of us, certainly. But yeah, I mean, when. When I think about, like, the general impact of, like, a show such as ours, of ours specifically, is I do think about, like, what's the point of this? Like, does it have a net positive effect at all? And, yeah, cultivating that community has been easily, like, the easiest thing to point to as a good thing. And then I just think that generally the idea which wasn't. Again, yeah, as we've talked about, like, wasn't really developed for us until later on. And also through I think, seeing the reactions and just the general environment created by the existence of the show. But the. The idea of being about the aging of artists, that. That there's somebody will listen. Even the fact at all of somebody engaging younger people engaging with the work. But older people, I feel like in a small way it just like it feels right. It feels like a one right thing in a world that's completely fucked up when it comes to order or like a sense of care. There. There is something like your elders. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think about the. The thing that Bob Tylan points out in the. There's a chapter or a moment in Philosophy of Modern Song where he talks about Confucius and filial piety. And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, just the fact of young people or you know, just non elderly people talking and giving time to consider what older people have done or are doing. And not just because they're like bombing babies, but because they're making art work that is like on a fundamental level, kind of like something that feeds back, I think, creates a background sense that there is a point to doing this. Like there's a point to making anything if nobody talks about it. And if. Especially if it's like once you get past a certain age, you're shot like a fucking horse, you're turned into glue. That's not a world where art has any real place of importance. And when it comes to music, I do think that talking about the type of artists that we do, we are at like a hinge point where if there's less stuff like what we're doing, the natural thing is just an acceleration of forgetting. It'll all. Everything gets forgotten. But if you don't respect it and digest it and discuss it, what gets forgotten won't even. It won't become part of the fabric. It'll just disappear.
- [23:18]
Ian
Yeah, that's true. You know, tears and rain, as they say. I do think that the filial piety is a funny way to put it, but I do think that that is something, you know, there is something to that. I have had the same experience myself, or a version of this experience in my own life. You know, not through the show, you know, bringing people together necessarily, but through what we look at on the show being sort of a bond or, you know, a bridge to other people. In my life. You know, just to give an example, my. My wife's grandfather is, like, 85, 87 something, you know, he's in his 80s. Old fella, stopped listening to music in about the 1950s. Like, the Beatles are too, you know, too rocking for him, too. Too extreme, too out there. You know, He's. He's, you know, like choir music and sort of like crooner type stuff, you know, American Songbook Perry. Yeah, exactly. That type of stuff. And I remember a couple years ago, he came out for a holiday, and he's active in his church choir or does singing performances and stuff in his little retirement community. And the song that he was going to sing at an upcoming performance, he announced to everyone, and no one knew what the song was except for me. He was singing that Lucky Old Son and through. Through Bob. I not only knew that song, but loved it dearly. And he obviously had never heard the Bob Dylan version. I played it for him. He wasn't overly fond of it, but it was a great little way to just kind of make a connection there. And then that was repeated just last year, this same type of thing, because his latest performance with his choir, he was gonna be singing Their Hearts Were Full of Spring, which we got, obviously, through Beach Boys. And that was another one that no one knew. I didn't know before the Beach Boys, but it's this. I don't know. It is. There's something touching and resonant about that to me, and I'm sure the same thing has happened many times over for a lot of other folks out there who listen to the same type of stuff. So it is. You know, you talk about, what is the purpose of this? Not only what is the purpose of the show, but what's the purpose of just, like, listening to the music and thinking about it seriously and, you know, paying attention to it, you know, right there. That's purpose enough, I think.
- [25:44]
Evan
Yeah. I mean, while it's still traceable back, it's like, get to trace and figure that shit out so that your world will make more sense to you. We can't really go on just having the only old people who everybody knows about being evil or, like, clueless in their actions. You need to have some idea of what it's like to be a. An older person aging with grace. Yeah.
- [26:13]
Ian
Yes. The last thing I'll say, just by way of moving towards the ostensible topic of this show or this episode, which we'll get to in a minute, I promise, is, you know, I do. And this kind of goes along with the community aspect of this. But I am very, and not to toot our own horn here, and I don't really want to do that, but I can't help but say, like, I'm very proud of the independent nature of the program and the fact that the entire thing has basically been bootstrapped by the two of us without any sort of outside investment or, you know, astroturfing or direction given from any sort of corporate presences. I know that certain podcasters out there who shall remain nameless believe that institutions are cool and that being in touch with and quote, unquote beholden to your audience makes you lame for whatever reason. The fact that we have been able to avoid all that bullshit is something that I'm always stoked on.
- [27:14]
Evan
You always come first. The listener always comes first.
- [27:18]
Ian
Well, with that out of the way, we're doing a couple things here besides bloviating, which we tend to do a good job of anyways and already have done. I don't know exactly what the philosophy is behind your selection of albums, but I know that we've assembled a list of albums to mention, to address, to note, and we'll just kind of trade back and forth one after the other, offer some comments about each. I wanted to put together a list of albums that I think are going to be Jokerman mindset candidates for the future that have come out actually during the Life of Jokerman podcast, because it's hard to make that call in real time as you're living through it. We've had the benefit of being able to look back at the Lou Reed catalog, the Beach Boys catalog, the Billy Joel catalog, with years and years of hindsight. So I'm trying to, you know, think, what are some records that, you know, have come out again during our five year lifespan here that are going to be candidates for this type of thought and approach somewhere down the line, whether or not, whether or not we're the ones doing the podcasting about all this. So that's what, that's what I'm going to be offering here. What about, what about you? What's the idea with your selections?
- [28:36]
Evan
It was kind of free form. It was, I was thinking about just like, what are albums that I discovered during the lifetime of this podcast and actually became ones that I go back to or think of in a very different way. Like, think of. But whereas before we started doing this, I did not think so much about. That's the main criteria. I was just thinking about, like, what are these things that, like, I kind of Wouldn't revere had we not done this.
- [29:11]
Ian
Fair enough. I think that makes perfect sense. I'm guessing that I'll have a lot of overlap with you on those. Do you want to. Why don't you start us off with one then? We all made it together.
- [29:22]
Evan
Now we'll look you back. Okay. Well, the first one is Back on Top by Van Morrison.
- [29:34]
Ian
Okay. I don't have any overlap with you there. I've never listened to that Van Morrison record in my life.
- [29:39]
Evan
I totally expected that I. I wouldn't have expected anyone to have listened to this. It's from 1999.
- [29:46]
Ian
It's back on Top, Van Morrison.
- [29:50]
Evan
It's. It's got. Philosopher's Stone. It's got. And I kind of forget what a lot of the other songs are called.
- [29:59]
Ian
Okay.
- [30:00]
Evan
But every time I listen to it, like, I don't know, it has that quality. This record has that quality. This cd, I should say, where to me it's kind of like a platonic ideal of like cozy sort of meat and potatoes album that I had to go through an appreciation of all of van in the 80s and early 90s and mid-90s to that. And then like even later stuff to then just kind of zone in on this one as being just sort of like, I bought it. I think I picked it up just as, like a bit, you know, just as. Just because I kind of was in the habit of picking up van records that I didn't really know. And I thought, like, this is probably going to be just sort of, you know, nothing special, and it's not, but it is. It is like it. It actually just is good. It's good.
- [31:00]
Ian
I know. I know exactly what you mean. I've never heard it, maybe never will, but I can trust with 100% certainty that it is, in fact good, good music.
- [31:10]
Evan
What's your pick?
- [31:12]
Ian
I'll stay on the van topic with, I think a record that we covered a couple years ago in one of our first non Bob Dylan episodes, and a record that I remember just being confused and sort of sickened by at the time almost, but also enjoying as a very funny object. I've come back to it and been listening to it. Just sounds incredible. Are you talking about latest record project, Volume one?
- [31:43]
Evan
I'm really glad you said that because I was hoping it would appear on this episode.
- [31:48]
Ian
It's. Yeah, I mean, it's fantastic. Like just listening to that record, it's. I mean, it's. It is insane. There's no question. It's like 30 songs long. It's like, over two hours. And obviously it's called latest record project, volume one. And to date, there has not been a volume two. It's unclear if and when there will be.
- [32:08]
Evan
We've got another album. There's been, like, four albums.
- [32:12]
Ian
Exactly. There have been, like, five Van Morrison records since then. But, I mean, frankly, I kind of forgot the. I mean, the record starts with the title track, Latest Record Project. I kind of forgot what he is saying in this song, but I can't really think of a better or purer expression of Joker in mindset than the lyrics to this song right here. Have you got my latest record Project? You got my latest record project? Not something that I used to do. Not something that you're used to. Not something you might be able to relate to in the present. In the present. Not something from so long ago. Not something you might want to know, but something I can relate to in the present.
- [32:55]
Evan
In the present.
- [32:56]
Ian
In the present. If that isn't Jokerman mindset, I don't know what is.
- [33:02]
Evan
Amen.
- [33:03]
Ian
Latest Record Project, Volume one. I mean, it's fantastic. Why are you on Facebook? The Psychoanalyst Ball.
- [33:12]
Evan
Jealousy.
- [33:13]
Ian
Jealousy. Where have all the rebels gone? It's iconic. I think it's a great record.
- [33:18]
Evan
Is there a song called, like, they own the Media?
- [33:21]
Ian
Yep. They own the Media. Absolutely. That's the third to last song. I mean, you could just. The song titles here are uninvizable. Don't forget about thank God for the Blues.
- [33:33]
Evan
How could I? I've never forgotten that.
- [33:35]
Ian
Upcounty. Down.
- [33:37]
Evan
Upcounty. Yeah. Come on.
- [33:38]
Ian
It's just banger after banger. So, you know, everyone at home. Throw that on when you're done with the pod. You're gonna have a great time. What do you got next?
- [33:47]
Evan
It's good as I've been to you.
- [33:49]
Ian
Sure.
- [33:50]
Evan
It's good as I've been to you. Because that was straight up one that I did not listen to before we did Jokerman. And now I think that there's, like, a theme that's developing, but just like Latest Record Project, which announces itself very much as an object, like a thing that's not necessary. It's sort of, like, functional. It's like utilitarian. It's like buying a new car. It's just like, this is the latest model. You can use this. This is like a set of tools. Like, I feel like Good as I've been to you is functional in this way, too, where it's like, these are songs that you don't know, and you're going to know them by the end of this. It's like educational music in a way that is the rarest version of that, where it's actually like fully engaging. And it's not about these songs being strung together. It more invites you to think about the world and history and that these songs emerged from the world naturally. It's like sort of a museum. It's like walking through a very interesting museum.
- [35:17]
Ian
Yeah, it's. That's absolutely one that I had virtually zero appreciation for before coming to the pod. And I think even when we did the first episode about it, I at least was like, yeah, this is all right. But like, you know, it just. It is what it is. But yeah, every. With each passing year I've grown deeper and fonder and more appreciative of that record, which I kind of consider to be like a Rosetta stone in Bob Dylan's catalog at this point. Like kind of the object through which he kind of explains himself. And that contains the roots of everything that he's gonna go on to do or had already done up until that point. Whether it was, you know, the early 60s folk stuff, all of the incredible, you know, genre shattering rock records that he would go on to make, you know, the Time out of minds and love of theft, Love and thefts to follow a couple years down the line. The singing, you know, Sinatra crooner type stuff, it's all. I think it's all in there one way or another.
- [36:22]
Evan
He teaches you how to appreciate that stuff because it's clear he. He sees a lot in it. Like you can tell that he's imagining a great epic picture while he's singing like Jim Jones. Once you recognize that that's what's going on. I mean, even as early as the 60s, he's talking about how folk music was to him. Like it's. He basically says, like, it's better than sex. He's like, this is like everything in the world in one thing. Like it is everything you could imagine and everything that's ever happened. And those are totally inextricable within these songs as, as these structures that you can also infinitely augment and change and are like forever adaptable. And that ideal is very much represented on this record. And then I think if you understand that and really sit with that, you'll be able to see how everything he's doing comes from that understanding or stems off of it and like triplicate. And those records treat the American Standard Songbook material with that same feeling and that same Understanding. And then every reference in all of his songs to those old songs becomes like its own path that is kind of intertwined with other paths that all come back to this essential music.
- [38:01]
Ian
It's an egoless record. Just went out to a shack on his property in Malibu and recorded these in a day or two. And certainly at a time in his career where he was not necessarily particularly well thought of in the critical community. But I think it just sort of speaks to the man's generosity with generosity of spirit in terms of his willingness to explore and integrate all of his different roots and sources into his practice, as well as generosity in terms of sharing that with the world.
- [38:34]
Evan
Well, and also just the title, Good as I've been to you, coming from the song Lord, Lord, you're gonna quit me, which is also perfectly Jokerman. It's like, I've done all this and you're gonna abandon me. Good as I've been to you, you're gonna quit me.
- [38:51]
Ian
I'm not Back to me new release or something from the last couple years, at least. Strong Jokerman mindset candidate. I'm gonna pick. I don't know if you listen to this record much recently. I've been going back to it over the last couple months after just kind of digging it out of my itunes library somewhere. Heartmind, CAS McCombs, which I think is such a fantastic record. I mean, he's very much one of our guys. And there's going to be appearances of several other, you know, of our guys in my little list of selections here. But the type of person who I think just gets more interesting and weirder and more unexpected with every passing, you know, with every record that he puts out. He put out. I think his most recent release, as we speak, is like a. Like a duet record of children's songs with someone else that I had never heard of. I've never really even listened to that record, but I'm sure I will at some point and I think it'll be great. That's the type of, I think, approach to music making and art making that I respond to, that we respond to here. And it's something that I think we see far too infrequently these days. Or, you know, when it is someone who is, you know, changing things up or going for a new sound, working with a new producer or whatever. It's sort of a commercialized, canny, manufactured type of move. And I feel like Cas just sort of wakes up and decides like, you know, this is what I'm doing today. And who cares what ends up happening out there in the world? This is just what I want to do. I mean, the guy barely even gives interviews about his music, but he just keeps, you know, keeps doing it, keeps cranking along. So already one of the most, I think, rewarding and interesting discographies of 21st century music, and one that I think is only poised to grow in the years to come. Because he strikes me as just like the lifer of all lifers, someone who's gonna be turning these things out until the day he dies.
- [40:53]
Evan
Yeah, I agree to all of that.
- [40:56]
Ian
It's great. It's such a cool record, too. And just like, so varied and so many different types. It's eight songs long, but they're all so distinct that. It's all so distinct. Exactly. Like, it feels like they all could come from eight different records there. From, you know, karaoke, which I think is just a great, you know, perfect song. Pop number. Right. New Earth, which seems more accurate and important with each passing day. And it's. It's references to Mr. Musk.
- [41:30]
Evan
He's having a bad day right now.
- [41:32]
Ian
He's. He sure is having a bad day. Exactly. Blue. Blue Band. Maybe the best song on that record. Title track at the end. I mean, it's just endlessly impressive. Hartman.
- [41:40]
Evan
Music is Blue. Great, great music is Blue. Great opener.
- [41:43]
Ian
Kick ass opener. Cass Diman McCombs.
- [41:48]
Evan
All right, back to you Till the Band comes in by Scott Walker. It's not a record that I didn't know. I mean, I knew it before we did the podcast, but I do feel like during the time of doing the podcast, I've. I went from thinking this was pretty good to it just being one of my favorite albums. And I think it's because it exists at this, like, very it. There's such a drama to it in terms of the stuff that we talk about of like the where a career goes and the highs and lows of a career that this is the record right before Scott Walker was basically like, for various reasons, like, disallowed to continue being a great artist. Like the Fates conspired. I mean, in terms of sales, in terms of alcohol, in terms of other intangibles and things that just didn't go the right way. There. There were those four Scott records. And then this album which precedes what is basically understood to be like one of the. One of the most clear wilderness periods, like the most true wilderness periods of any artist in terms of the. The fall from artistic ambition to just contract fulfillment, slavery, basically, like where he allegedly, the way he's talked about it in interviews, does not remember anything that happened after the. This 1970 record until the late 70s. You know, when he comes back to his artistic self and does night flights and then begins his later career ascendance to heights that nobody's gone to elsewhere ever, in my opinion. But this album is like perfectly. It's just like pure food. It's like this is like a great meal when it comes to, like, thinking about the stuff we talk about. Like, there's good. There's great, great songs on it and then there's just kind of like gimmicky songs on it that are also good. And then there's songs that are basically failures. But overall I think it's like, perfect. Like, you couldn't ask for a better package just to think about an artist's career than this record. And to at this point, like the schlock on this album. Like the Hills of Yesterday and it's over and Stormy. Like, there's these songs I do did not care. There's that great line in the Pulp album We Love Life produced by Scott Walker, where on the song Bad cover version, Jarvis Cocker's listing things that don't measure up to the original. And he's like. Like the later Tom and Jerry when the two of them could talk and like the stones since the 80s. And then he says the second side of till the Band comes in, it'll let you down, my friend. But I love the second side. I love the first side. And I think it has a couple things that are just incredible.
- [45:38]
Ian
I'll get there one day. I'm still a virgin when it comes to Scott Walker, but I've heard you and plenty of others wax rhapsodic about him for quite some time. So eventually I'll put in the time and work, but it seems like something that I want to make sure to devote some time and energy to when I get around to it.
- [45:57]
Evan
Well, you can listen to the episode of Jokerman podcast about it where I talked about it at length with our friend Raphael.
- [46:08]
Ian
I'll give that a spin sometime. Back to me. How about this? Vampire Weekend. Only God Was Above Us, which I think was still probably. I mean, last year just came out over a year ago, but I think is probably the best record from last year. And it's not particularly close, although I do like a couple other records that came out as well, quite a bit, but just endlessly impressive package of music, especially kind of where it came in their career and in the environment in which they're operating. Because I mean, obviously as one of the totems of 2008, 2009 era indie, a lot of those bands have gone a lot of different directions over time and very few of them are still even on. And those that are, are doing the 10 year anniversary tour of a certain record that everyone loved 10 years ago and then hasn't listened to anything since. And they are the very opposite of that right down the line. Still headlining festivals and headlining them with sets packed full of the most exciting material in their catalog, which is the newest, very newest shit. Father of the Bride I think is a great candidate for this. Also doesn't fit in because it came out in 2019 before Jokerman existed. But even that record, I mean where they were at, the fact that that was kind of like an Ezra solo record in some ways and obviously was a major departure from everything before. Like they were just. They could have gone in any direction, you know, after that record they could have also just called it quits. There could just be no more Vampire Weekend. But to come back with this, you know, strong of a record that iterates on what they've done in the past, but advances it at the same time and is so kind of confident in itself. And some of the songs on that record, man, Mary Boone's like, I think the best Vampire Weekend song that exists at this point. I just fucking cannot get enough of that song. What a record.
- [48:07]
Evan
It's great record. I also love it. I love Vampire Weekend still. Yeah. That record included.
- [48:15]
Ian
I would imagine you are more focused on the early Vampire Weekend, really.
- [48:20]
Evan
No, no. I mean whenever they put out a record I'm like stoked and I'm very much studying it and thinking about it a lot for the year that it's out especially. It's an event for me.
- [48:38]
Ian
Yeah. And it should be. And it is. And I think we used to get 10 of these records a year or I considered 10 records in the same kind of sphere as this type of thing again back when they were kind of coming out, when the self titled came out, when Contra came out, some of those years were just legendary. And it's so rare at this point. And even those records that are coming out from some of their contemporaries are typically pretty diminished. For something to just be this fucking fantastic and forward looking is so impressive to me. I think it's going to exist as a hinge point in their career.
- [49:20]
Evan
Yeah.
- [49:21]
Ian
X number of years down the line.
- [49:22]
Evan
It's like it designed to be that. And they buy into and then deliver on all of those premises. Like the idea that there's such a thing as a fifth album vibe. Like, they're clearly thinking about the future when they. With everything they do and they're thinking about their past. But that's. They're just creating, like, a very rich body of work that has details that are worth looking for. And they. It's a very rewarding. They're very rewarding act to follow.
- [50:03]
Ian
Sure.
- [50:04]
Evan
And they still have. They have a sense of humor that, like, they never have lost.
- [50:08]
Ian
Absolutely.
- [50:08]
Evan
So.
- [50:09]
Ian
Exactly.
- [50:09]
Evan
On top of that, to have that, like, come on.
- [50:12]
Ian
Probably the best, you know, live act working these days. Run, don't walk. If they're coming to town anywhere near you. All right, back to you.
- [50:22]
Evan
Let's see. Songs for the General Public by the Lemon Twigs.
- [50:28]
Ian
Okay. Wow. All right.
- [50:29]
Evan
It's just great.
- [50:30]
Ian
Sure.
- [50:30]
Evan
It's just fucking great. Like, I could have put everything. Harmony on here and I mean, use this slot to just note that that might as well. I'm. I'll just. Sure. Both. But, like, I just think that they're, you know, they're. They're the best.
- [50:51]
Ian
And like Michael and Brian, songs for.
- [50:54]
Evan
The general public is just like they. They are just so good at doing what they do. And every time they do a song style. In the style that they're doing it like. Like, it's not just, like, pastiche. It's not even just ode to. It's not just a homage. It's like they're making new songs that have everything you would want a great song to have because they are great songs and they happen to sound like. And feature textures and melody stylings that are of the past. But make no mistake, you're not being fooled into thinking you're listening to something fresh. It's like, only because there's so many acts that are not actually able to do what they do. I don't know if there's any. I don't know of any.
- [51:53]
Ian
Certainly modern acts, you know, I would say no.
- [51:57]
Evan
That's what I mean. Yeah. Like, currently, like, nobody can actually do what they're doing. There's plenty who can basically do a facsimile and sometimes get away with it.
- [52:09]
Ian
Typically, I think of you and I as the ones who know as much, if not more about the Bob Dylan's, the Lou Reeds, the Brian Wilsons than anyone else. Certainly anyone else our age. But Michael and Brian, they're younger than.
- [52:25]
Evan
Us and they know more about music than either of us ever will.
- [52:29]
Ian
Exactly. Many steps beyond and that's legible in every second of the records that they make. And, yeah, I mean, I think songs for the general public is maybe the clean. I mean, they're all fantastic. But if you're just looking for one completely tidy package, all killer, no filler, I mean, you can't go wrong with that. Great guests on Jokerman podcast also.
- [52:52]
Evan
Yes, well, and dear friends indeed.
- [52:56]
Ian
Poptical Illusion. John Davis, Kael.
- [53:00]
Evan
There you pronounce it right.
- [53:02]
Ian
Finally, great record, Poptical Illusion. One that I think took me and I think also, you know, a little bit of time. Obviously, it came out last year about this time, and we didn't get around to talking about it on the pod until whenever, I think end of the year, December, something like that. And, you know, he's also put out Mercy in this time frame, early 2023. So that I was considering at the same time. But to me, I do think Popsicle Illusion is more of a Jokerman pick than Mercy. I don't know about you, but the way that it just kind of appeared all of a sudden out of nowhere, following up very closely upon Mercy, you know, a year, year and a half after that record came out. But Mercy having been the first new John Cale record besides M Fans, which was sort of a newish RE record over a decade between Nookie Wood and Mercy. And then just all of a sudden, here's the next one. It's got a very together through life kind of feel to it, both in the way that it was just kind of put out all of a sudden, shortly after a previous monumental record came out. And also in the way that I think it's a little bit more relaxed, kind of a looser, shaggier, frankly, funner record to listen to. Just packed with fantastic songs, you know, Wales and Davis. Or I guess. No, it's called Davis and Wales, but, you know, whatever. Fantastic. One of the best John Kale songs ever. Shark. Shark. Incredible. Still, a record that, like, I think has some points on it that could be cut or that I don't necessarily need. But also, at the end of the day, I think this is key to Joker. And mindset is like, don't turn your nose up at anything. You know, you're only ever gonna get so many songs out of John Cale. And so if you got more John Cale songs on a record, even if they aren't your favorite, even if they make the record maybe not quite as strong as it could be otherwise, they're still great John Cale songs, you know, it's good music.
- [55:03]
Evan
I hope he makes 10 more this year.
- [55:05]
Ian
You know, he may well, he already put out a new follow up EP that I am ashamed to say I haven't listened to yet. But that came out a couple weeks ago. Obviously he was on the John Mulaney. He's staying plenty active. I think he's going on tour dates in the upcoming months. The man is a testament to the power of Jokerman mindset.
- [55:29]
Evan
The Fall Shift Work Shift work.
- [55:34]
Ian
This could be a completely made up Fall album and I wouldn't know the difference.
- [55:38]
Evan
Well, it was made up by Markie Smith in the early.
- [55:44]
Ian
Oh, I've seen, I've seen this cover before.
- [55:47]
Evan
Basically my favorite album cover of all time. But besides that, I just point to this one. When people are like, like this, this record is responsible for. When I think about the Fall, I think about the 90s more than I think about the 70s or 80s, which is, you know, crazy. Basically for most people it. It is the equivalent of being like. Of saying, you know, I like together through life more than desire.
- [56:24]
Ian
Something you've been known to say.
- [56:26]
Evan
So yeah, this is the Fall equivalent, which is just like, it's just great. Like, I just think this record is like very fun to listen to. And there's. I don't know, to me it's just like proof that there was still so much like to this, this group even at a time when just like basically people don't think about them. Don't think about this record that much. Unless you're like really ahead, you're probably not gonna be talking about it. So I just wanted to shout it out because it's got, it's got some really great stuff on it.
- [57:07]
Ian
I believe you. I'm looking at the Wikipedia page right now. What I find admirable about it, again, having never listened to it once in my life, is it comes out in 1991. But they've got that little chronology section on Wikipedia where it's got the record before, the record after. You've got Extricate, another record I've never heard of in 1990. And then Code Selfish, a third record I've never heard of in 1992. So you've got 90, 91, 92. You know, one thing I have always exactly admired about Markie Smith, and you could say this about Van Morrison as well, is their just, you know, ceaseless willingness to just put out another fucking record. And if. Who cares if it's not gonna be your career defining statement? Who cares if it isn't mixed or mastered quite as well as it could Be who cares if the COVID art is dog shit, which, you know, in this case obviously is not. But you know, there's always another one. A willingness just to never, never hang it up, never say no, continue to proceed into the future. That's a mindset, I think, that very few artists these days have. When everything is so, you know, thoughtfully considered and fine tuned for the algorithm and social media and whatever. And just like, just put the record out, man. There's gonna be another one. It's not that big a deal.
- [58:18]
Evan
It's got some of my favorite songs on it too. It's got Life Just Bounces, which is so good. It's got shift work. The title track is great. It's got a Lot of Wind, which is really funny, which is basically like another way of saying somebody's an idiot. It's like about. He talks a lot of wind. There's a song Idiot Joy Show Land, which is like one of the great send ups of Benson Boone decades before his birth and Edinburgh, man, which is, I think he's on the record saying is kind of like Lou Reed style song. Like it. It feels like 90s Lou Reed, like kind of. He has a lot of songs that are sort of Louish. And that one's just like a rare sweet song, as is Rose. There's just a lot of different colors of Mark Smith on this album.
- [59:22]
Ian
Fantastic. I'll get around to it when I'm 94 years old and I'm just making my way through the first 15 years of the fall discography.
- [59:32]
Evan
Yeah, just listen to this one.
- [59:34]
Ian
All right, let's see, what do I got here? How about a record from this year, one that I know we've talked about. Have we talked about it? In many cases. I forget. Dan's Boogie, Destroyer, one of the icons of Jokerman mindset. I wouldn't be surprised if you have a Destroyer record in your own little.
- [59:53]
Evan
Yeah, I was having a hard time deciding which one I wrote down. Have we met?
- [59:59]
Ian
Sure. Which is a perfectly great pick as well.
- [60:03]
Evan
Let's just say both. I mean, also, I think every Destroyer record released during the lifetime of Jokerman podcast, which is. Would be. What? Have we met Labyrinthitis.
- [60:13]
Ian
Well, have we met? Came out before. It came out in 2020, but came out before Joker did it, you know, existed. Yeah, because remember, we talked about this. It was January and remember you and I went and see the tour in March and then the pot. You know what? But it's close. Yeah, It's Labyrinthiatis and Dan's Boogie. I would still pick Dan's Boogie out of all of those, because I do think that it sort of represents a break with the past. And obviously, I'm not going to say that Dan Behar is beholden to his past by any means. The man's, I think, maybe been the most stylistically adventurous musical artist over the last quarter century. Just look at the records, Listen to the records. But Dan's Boogie is yet another kind of fork in the road after a couple records. Ken, have We Met and Labyrinthitis, that all are painted in different shades, I would say, but seem to be, you know, kind of stylistically variations on. Variations on. Exactly. And again, fantastic stuff. Labyrinthitis might be my favorite out of all three of those records, but I think dance boogie is just like. That's what I'm looking for.
- [61:20]
Evan
Yeah, I agree.
- [61:22]
Ian
The new sound, the new step forward, something totally unexpected. And he just continues to deliver time after time after time. I just. I'm. I keep waiting for there to be a Destroyer record that I'm like, yeah, you know, this one doesn't really do much for me. And it just. It never happens, like, every single time. It's just. It's a fucking home run.
- [61:43]
Evan
Yeah, I agree. Well, let's say it's Dan's Boogie. Just because it's the most recent record project from Destroyer.
- [61:50]
Ian
That's right. Absolutely.
- [61:53]
Evan
Is it my turn again? How about Together Through Life?
- [62:00]
Ian
Boy, Another Bob record.
- [62:01]
Evan
I mean, it is.
- [62:03]
Ian
You know, listen, it went from being. It's good music. It's all good.
- [62:07]
Evan
It's all good. I mean, that's the one that I was thinking, like, that's the Jokerman ethos. But actually, now I'm coming around to thinking latest record project is the best exemplar.
- [62:19]
Ian
I do think that that is divinely aligned with our mindset. But, you know, it's all good is. Is right up there.
- [62:27]
Evan
It's for the record that, yeah. Going into doing the show, I did not know and now I think of as just being, like, not just good, but the salt of the earth. Like, this is just like the grit, the good stuff. It'd be like criticizing sitting by a warm fireplace. It's like criticizing a glass of milk and cookies. It's like criticizing walking barefoot on the grass, like criticizing a potato. It doesn't announce itself as being anything more than what it is. And what it is is natural, real music.
- [63:07]
Ian
Great record. One that I don't even like to consider, you know, is it good? Is it bad? Where does it rank in the discography? It just.
- [63:14]
Evan
It Just is.
- [63:14]
Ian
Yeah, it just is.
- [63:15]
Evan
It just is.
- [63:20]
Ian
All right, what do we got here? I'm gonna go to. I'm gonna go to a record that I know you probably haven't listened to, and one that you're maybe not gonna. Not that you don't like it, but just never has rung your bell, necessarily, but. The last Andrew Savage solo record. Lead singer of Parquet Courts, several Songs About Fire. He was on the pod for an interview a couple years ago. Just, you know, Parquet Courts are a band. You never really listen to Parquet Courts.
- [63:45]
Evan
No, I actually really like. Especially the. The last. I like Wide Awake a lot.
- [63:51]
Ian
Sure.
- [63:52]
Evan
And, yeah, I never was, like, listening too dedicated to Lee. But, yeah, I like some of the stuff that I know a lot.
- [64:02]
Ian
They were huge for me when I was, like, 20, you know, light Up Gold and Sunbathing Animal in particular from 2012 and 2014, respectively. Just like the, you know, two of the great rock records, but, you know, they're rock records made by, you know, young guys playing rock music and stuff. And so it's the kind of thing that you could expect. Like, what's the shelf life on this? Or, you know, these records are always going to be great, but how many of these records do they have within them? But, I mean, since then, it's just been, you know, unexpected steps forward, both musically, which I get a little bit on, like, human performance from 2016. That was a huge record for me at a pivotal moment in my life. And then more recently, yeah, the Andrew Savage solo stuff, I've been a little more lukewarm on Parquet Courts, you know, as, you know, the band themselves just, you know, the last record, I forget exactly what it was called. Even I remember not thinking it was their strongest.
- [64:58]
Evan
Wasn't it Wide Awake or did they put one out after that?
- [65:00]
Ian
No, they put one out after that. Wide awake was 2018, and they put another one out in 2021. 2022, anyways, whatever. Thawing dawn was Andrew Savage's first solo record, and then several Songs About Fire a couple years ago, his second. And, I mean, he's just stylistically unimpeachable as a vocalist. I love the tone of his voice and the way that he's able to turn this kind of gruff and messy instrument into something beautiful and resonant. And then, you know, just the songwriting, really just one of the most impressive and unique viewpoints I think, as a songwriter that you get these days. Something that's, like, totally one of one, just could only ever come from this this dude. I think a sense of personality and uniqueness is something that has really been sanded down a little bit in contemporary music. I think everything that we've talked about so far, that's a strong part of it is the fact that it is so unique. But just anytime I get something from someone who is able to just be themselves and could only ever be themselves, that's. That's kind of one of the keystone elements of a record, and I totally get that from that album. Just some fantastic songs on there, too.
- [66:13]
Evan
He's a good painter, too.
- [66:15]
Ian
Great painter. Yeah. Absolutely. Does all the COVID art for himself and for parquet courts, you know. Multidisciplinary artist Andrew Savage. Can't wait to see what he does next.
- [66:27]
Evan
How about we just talk about 11 tracks of whack?
- [66:31]
Ian
Sure.
- [66:31]
Evan
Because that's absolutely mine. I mean, talk about a record I didn't know and now think is so great.
- [66:39]
Ian
I think one of the definitive discoveries of this series for me, sort of just listening to it again the other day when I was gardening and. Or like, I wasn't even gardening. I was, like, just potting plants and just having a fucking ball, man. I could listen to that record, and I will listen to that record until the day I die, and just never, never, ever gets old. Walter Becker is just so fucking cool. I think I love that record so much because there is so little of. It's just that and then circus Money.
- [67:08]
Evan
Well, I want to talk about Circus money soon because I've been just dipping my toes in, and, boy, I'm with you.
- [67:14]
Ian
I went as soon as. As soon as I finished Whack the other day, I went right to Circus money. Man, that sounds so good. I can't wait for the Circus Money episode. Yeah, but. Yeah, I mean, just one of the coolest cats around and a record that is so, like, has zero presence in. In popular culture. I had never fucking heard of this record before we decided, oh, let's do this first weird Walter Becker solo record from 1994. But, I mean, that's what's so cool about doing this, is like, here's a record from some guy who's part of a band that you love and made really great records in the 70s. And then here's something you never heard of, never expected to, like, never even were aware it existed. And it just becomes, like, a defining part of your. Your life. And it's like, that's. That's magic, man. That's what it's all about.
- [68:04]
Evan
It's such a moody and complex record. Emotionally, too. And then there's like, these just bizarre songs. And then there's just some, like, kind of skanky, horny songs. And then there's like a very sweet song at the end.
- [68:19]
Ian
Oh, little Kawaii.
- [68:20]
Evan
And then there's also hat2 flat, which is like. Hat2 flat is like. There could be a whole paper written.
- [68:27]
Ian
About that iconic song.
- [68:29]
Evan
That is. I can't.
- [68:31]
Ian
Hat to Flag.
- [68:32]
Evan
I can't even. That song is.
- [68:36]
Ian
Yeah, I think the design of the record also, like, very, very. Just whatever the general gestalt of Jokerman album design and packaging and stuff is, it's this. This is a huge part of it.
- [68:53]
Evan
Good as I've been to youo. 11 tracks of whack and Mutineer.
- [68:57]
Ian
Yes, absolutely, man. Mutineer. That's a great one, too.
- [68:59]
Evan
Well, that's on your list, isn't it?
- [69:00]
Ian
Well, I'm only doing. I'm only doing the new records at this point, but if I had been doing your. Your thing, Mutineer would.
- [69:06]
Evan
Then I'll say Mutineer. Just because, like, we got to say, because it's like, I'm just thinking about, like, what are the discoveries? Like, that one has to be mentioned. Like, we have. That was definitely one that I didn't really, like, give the time to. And now. Yeah, there's, like, that certain texture. The early 1990s is just such a weird time aesthetically, and it's such a. Such fertile ground for the imagination for me, for some reason. Maybe it's just because I was born in the early 90s, but something about the uncanny sort of undecided aesthetic world of those brief years is, like, really holding up. I found, like, it feels just as new as it ever did because it doesn't really fit anywhere.
- [70:03]
Ian
Truly an essential period in the greater Jokerman canon, you know, 1990 to 1996.
- [70:10]
Evan
I would say even 89 to 94 is like the prime years of this.
- [70:18]
Ian
But yes, I'll just do a couple more because we've done plenty, certainly. And if you're running out of things, I will. I'll do. I mean, Josh, obviously we got a credit here. I know. Mahash Mashana, one of the other great records from last year, one that you played a role in and a record that I love. But, I mean, I think it's undebatable that Chloe is like the Jokerman mindset pick of the Father John mystic canon so far, just like the perfect, completely hard left turn swerve out of absolutely nowhere at that moment in time in 2022, which was a weird year, obviously. It was like the pandemic was still lingering a little bit, but everyone was, like, kind of coming out of it, but there had been, like this kind of dead zone, artistically speaking. And so, like, this is just. It's. It's a very. It's resonant of a particular moment at time in my life to me. And I mean, just the songwriting on that record. I was listening to it again. Mr. Blue. Unbelievable, Chloe. Unbelievable. The next 20th century, to say nothing of at the very end of that record. Just a powerhouse of an album and one that I think I get the sense that it's sort of underappreciated in the Father John mystic canon, but that obviously makes me just all the more interested in writing for it because I really think it is top to bottom, his strongest record.
- [71:44]
Evan
Well, it's definitely also just a fearless choice to make that record. I think that, like this, the aesthetic and stylistic turns that it has, the big turn that it has away from something more commercially viable that he'd kind of, you know, carved out a place for is Real Love Baby. That's the one. I mean, he. He proved that he could do it all and then some with this album. Like, he was already great at doing what he does. But I think that this was like a leap that. And also, as I understand it, having talked to Josh about it, it's like a record that very organically became something very unique. Which to do that, to see that on a scale like the. The one that that record has had is. That's all. That's basically what we're always talking about as being like, the highest achievement, like the greatest thing you can do, even if you fail, which that record doesn't.
- [72:59]
Ian
Absolutely just exploded the very concept of what a Father John Misty record could be. And at a time when he had every right, if he wanted to, to just retreat into, you know, Real Love Baby territory and crank out the same type of material and satisfy millions and play to packed houses all across the world. But maybe not be true to himself. And Lord knows, to his credit, he made the right call there. I'll just throw one last one in here now. Also, and this is just on an extremely personal level, but one of the most rewarding parts of this whole thing has been of Jokerman in general, has been getting to develop relationships with some of the people that we talk about and appreciate and admire from afar. And so I couldn't do this type of exercise without shouting out Christopher Owens and his record from last year. I Want to run barefoot through your hair? Just everyone out there, go back and listen to all the girls episodes and the several interviews I've done with Chris. At this point, it's all in there. I'm not going to bore you with recounting all of that type of stuff, but, but, you know, maybe the band, the records that mean more to me than any other music ever has or probably ever will. And to see him come back, you know, after so long away with such a strong record and really be in such a great place at this point, he's touring all over the world with Angelico right now. It's just like I, it's, it's, it's magic to see what's happening with Chris. And I think it is in large part because of this just fucking fantastic record that's as strong as anything he's ever put out. That's why you got to stick with it, man. That's Jokerman mindset. Just listen, keep listening. Stay in line for the next one because it might just be the best yet.
- [74:45]
Evan
On that note, just friends of the podcast, I will also just talk briefly about escapism. I just feel like Ian Spinonius is always in Los Angeles here and all around the world. They're constantly touring. An important figure in terms of keeping the dream alive. So, yeah, pick up a copy of Charge of the Love Brigade. Well, that about wraps it up for this special Jokerman five year spectacular. And I say just about wraps it up because we're not quite finished. As part of our thank you to our listeners, to you, we actually are doing a special Patreon bonus episode. The rest of this conversation was dedicated to the listener contributions about what Jokerman has meant to you, discoveries that you've made through the program over the years that'll be coming shortly for our loyal subscribers. But for now, that's it. I think I speak for Ian and for myself when I say namaste to you all in Jokerman Nation from the bottom of our hearts. Jokerman, have you got mine latest records projects? You got my latest record project. Not something that I used to do. Not something that you used to. Not something might be able to relate to in the present. Present. And you got my latest songs. I sing it. You got my songs.