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Jokerman podcast is brought to you by Distrokid and their new direct to fan tool. Allowing any artist to sell merch. Distrokid Direct allows artists to create a merch store in minutes without any upfront costs or any technical skills or know how they'll take care of all the logistics and the nitty gritty. And as with distribution through Distrokid, they never take a cut of the proceeds. You, the artist, keep 100% of your earnings. Once again, that's Distrokid Direct. Open a store today@distrokid.com direct. Welcome back once again, Jokerman in conversation. I'm Ian today speaking with Osnev Korkeshian, AKA artist known as Bedouin, who recently released a wonderful new album, Neon Summer Skin, which has been available for a month or so. An excellent collection of don't call it mor music, middle of the road music. You'll hear a little bit more about that with Ozni momentarily. I'd say think more along the lines of classic 70s singer songwriter, am good vibes, some of which was recorded with friends of the program, Jonathan Rado and the d' Addario brothers, better known as the Lemon Twigs, Oz. And he's also got recent Jokerman guest friend of the program, Aaron Olsen in her live band with Bedouin. They're gonna be touring this fall. So a lot of links, a lot of bits of red string up on the bulletin board here. So it only makes sense that this is some good music. Should be one of the last conversations on this Jokerman in conversation Summer as we move towards the conclusion of our Death Grip series. I think we got one more like top songs countdown coming up and then might take a week. Just catch our breath a little bit. And then the moment we've all been waiting for. Jokerman4 Very soon. Very excited about that. We actually talk a little bit about the artist who's going to be the focus of that series in this conversation with Alison Eve.
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B
Here she is carrying the burden with a safety box buried in the bank. Children so laughter in the tears and all the sadness I should be glad was she should I feel free from
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A
all the Disney Caucasian. Welcome so much. Welcome so much. Thank you so much for joining us. We're off to a great start here already. I can't even speak.
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B
That's my line. Thank you so much.
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A
You're welcome so much. You're coming to coming to us from sunny Los Angeles, I believe. Right?
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B
It's a gorgeous day.
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A
Beautiful. 70 what? 75 and sunny 78 Is it hot down there.
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B
Sure. It's actually, it is hotter than it should be. I feel this. I think we're getting a little bit of a heat wave. But. But early mornings are perfect.
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A
Are pretty good. Yeah.
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B
Yeah. Right. Right about now it's, it's a little bit brutal, but it's, it's pretty nice. No complaints.
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A
I'm in San Francisco right up the coast from you. So it's been weird to see everyone across the country. You know, we're speaking now in like early mid July, you know, so this will come out in the near future. It's been weird to see everyone across of the country just like suffering under these 100 degree heat dome things. I guess that's more east coast, but like I'm in a wool sweater like most days because it's been like 61 degrees and like very windy for the last 10 days. It's.
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B
Yeah, it's. Yeah. What's it like there now? It's.
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A
It's pretty good to be honest. Let's. Let's look at the old weather app. 63 degrees and nice and brightly sunny. It was gray all day yesterday but the gray has burned off. The street stratus is burned off. So it's a nice kind of warm. Well, San Francisco, warm sunny afternoon. Yeah, we'll probably get cold again before too long.
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B
San Fran used to be a little chilly for me. A little gloomy. But I actually the older I get, the more I appreciate it because LA is getting. Maybe this is also just getting older, but it's, I'm tolerating the heat and like the. Just the brightness.
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A
The brain.
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B
Yeah, it's just too stark bright. Oh it just overexposed.
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A
I feel that. Yeah. Especially like, you know the. I grew up in Los Angeles so I'm, I'm familiar with, with the town. First quarter century of my life was spent there. It gets a little, it gets a little much at certain points. Especially when you're like on a street where there's no trees and if you're in a car all day.
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B
Exactly. It's tough. There's not enough shade, there's not enough greenery. Depends on what neighborhood you're in.
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A
But there are a couple spots. Yeah. But you got to really kind of, you know, seek them out versus other places. Are a little more blessed with the
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B
park or the more affluent. Yeah. Streets definitely have.
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A
Yes.
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B
More shade.
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A
Well, this has been weather hour here on Jokerman podcast. I wanted to actually start on this though because. So you're, you're in Los Angeles. You've been in Los Angeles for some number of years at this point. 10, 15, something like that. That.
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B
Let's see, I've been here since 2011, so. Yeah, yeah, there you go.
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A
And it's a beautiful, you know, tapestry Cornucopia, the music scene down there these days. And I know I. What caught my eye initially when I saw stuff about your great new record Neon Summer Skin, is that you worked on a couple of the tracks with friends of Jokerman podcast, Jonathan Rado and Brian Daddario. How'd you fall in with, with those fellas?
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B
I simply asked.
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A
Wow.
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B
They wanted to play.
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A
Okay.
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B
Yeah. I, I have been a fan of theirs for a long time, both Jonathan Rado and the Lemon Twigs and so reached out to Rado and asked if he would be down and I didn't really know what to expect because he's been, he's done all kinds of things. So you know, I thought maybe my potatoes were a little too small, but. But it was really cool. Like he's, I, I love that about him. Like he does. He'll do, you know, a Brandon Flowers record and then he'll do someone very local to la and I really appreciate that about him. Same goes for the. My friend Robert Beatty, who does my art, a lot of my artwork, he's will do all kinds of huge scale things and also just down to do like teeny tiny local projects and it's, it's a quality I really admire in people. But anyhow, all this to say that he was down and he had the Twigs coming in for a different project and so we, we squeezed in a couple songs and it was so fun. There's such a good hang so present and like just down to like clown around in the studio and pick things up and try them out and just very enthusiastic and I really loved it.
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A
Yeah, they are, they're major homies. Did you have like a particular like, like sound or like sonic touch point you had in mind and you were like, I gotta go to Jonathan Rado for this or was it just like, you know, kind of excited about his whole broad series of collaborators over the years?
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B
I think it's a bit of both, but like definitely the, the former. I think these two songs that I chose, I, I heard like a little bit more of a 70s playfulness sing, songy, melodic kind of what, what I've come to learn has been called Middle of the Road. I didn't know that term.
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A
I mean I'm, I'm familiar with that term, but I guess I wouldn't Necessarily say that's the term that leaps to mind with your music. But go on.
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B
But like, I think an English music critic recently called my influences for this record. I think he picked up somewhere, I don't know, maybe in the press release or something like Carole King, Todd Rundgren, Carpenter's like mor music. And I was like, wait, moir, what's that? And I guess middle of the road is a term coined for those kinds of. Which is so funny because I think of that music as so extraordinary. However, it's so also like familiar and so comforting and so like warm and inviting and accessible. I guess that's, that's where the term comes in. Anyway. I was really tickled by that.
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A
So interesting. Yeah, I guess, I guess. See these like old genre terms. AOR is another thing that always has confused me. You are album oriented rock as opposed to like single oriented rock. You know, like, you know, the real hardcore. Like we make albums with the capital A type.
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B
Which.
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A
Listen, I love albums, okay? But like, I don't know, this is another like kind of antiquated genre classifier. Mor ao. This stuff like has a very. It's aged like milk to me. Like trying to classify music along these. I guess if you're just going to say like Karen Carpenter is moi. And like that's a sonic touch point on some songs here, like. I guess so. But it just like seems like a term that's best left to the past because it almost just does not make any sense, you know, when you're talking, talking about modern music.
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B
I know. Well, I go back and forth about this because it's like, who is it Elvis Costello that says like talking about music is like dancing about architecture?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Right. And so, but. But then again we're humans that communicate with words. And so like it's nice to come to a collective understanding about what something means so we can talk about it. And you know, it's like the, the endless genre, you know, conversations about like, well, what is this? What is that? I was talking about somebody about this today about like we were. It's. It's about that time to like submit stuff to Grammys, which is a conversation I've never been a part of. And, and gosh, I don't even in the conversation about like, well, what category would we even be? And. And just talking about that kind of. And it's just such a weird.
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A
It's a puzzle.
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B
It's a weird puzzle, but also all the lines are blurred for better or worse.
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A
Yeah,
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B
but it's also. It's it's like. It reminds you, like, the beauty of words just so that you can try to, like, communicate an idea. However, it can be kind of limiting, but sometimes limitations can be inspiring. Anyway, it's a. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about it, and a lot of them are conflicting.
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A
Yeah, it's a weird. It's a weird thing. And I think, especially, like, today. I mean, like, I think it's natural for people our age. Well, I guess I'm. I don't want to make too many assumptions about your age, but I assume you're generally in my typical.
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B
I think it's safe to assume.
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A
Yeah. Or, you know, like, the concept of, like, strictly just looking at the one genre, like, only listening to, quote, unquote, rock music or only listening to pop music. Like, it's a. That whole. That's not even how we really think about listening to music in the first place.
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B
No, it did not. It's not.
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A
And so trying to, like, I don't know, fit all of this stuff into these categories and boxes that have existed for nearly a century for sort of arbitrary reasons. Like, I understand why they still exist, right? Like, why you go into a record store and there's still the country section, the pop section, the EDM section, the whatever. But, like, increasingly, it's like, just feels like the tools of, like, the 19th century trying to manifest themselves in the 21st, if that makes any sense.
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B
Yeah, totally. But then what's the alternative? Like, everything's alphabetized.
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A
Yeah, no, that's.
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B
You think so?
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A
I just. Your guess is you're the. You're the musician. You should know how to handle all this stuff. What. If you're going to submit to the Grammys, what category are you going to submit to?
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B
Well, the consensus is, I mean, this is just, like, such a hilarious conversation to have to begin with. But. But, I mean, the. The album is easy. It would be like, contemporary folk. I think that that's pretty. Okay. Obvious to me when it comes, just relatively speaking, when you're looking at all the categories. But then when it comes to, like, song performances, I. I don't know. I. I really am confused by it. Americana has been thrown out. But then you look at, like. I was talking to someone about, like. Like, Beck's album Morning Phase and how he. He. He got best album. But then for this. For the song performance or recording or whatever, it was best rock. And I was like, wait, rock? That's so bizarre. I think of rock as, like, you know, radio rock.
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A
Yeah. Like, loud, electric. Yeah. Morning Phase was like a, like a country, like folky, the type album, but like sea change kind of sounding thing.
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B
Totally. But it won like a bunch of words for rock. And, and so I don't know. So the, so the, my takeaway is that none of it matters, really. It's all kind of made up, you
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A
know, that I think is kind of the is, is kind of the takeaway. Alternative is another one of those, like.
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B
Well, that's, yeah, that's what I thought.
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A
Alternative to what? You know.
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B
Yeah, exactly. That's, that's also what comes to mind. I'm like, well, this is, I guess the fact that maybe it doesn't obviously fit anywhere could make it alternative. Like, for instance, Bonnie Bear was alternative. Sure. Nominated. And I was like, well, it's kind of the wheel. I don't know. I, I, it's like, it's like you said, the stuff is like very unimportant unless you want to be in conversation about it, which I think is also important. So I, so, yeah, whatever that means.
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A
I'm looking at the alternative Grammys, alternative nominees for last year. It's the Cure record, the Tyler the Creator record, Hayley Williams, Wet Leg and Bon Iver, which, like, if someone can decide what the common.
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B
A Perfect Dinner. A Perfect Dinner Guest.
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A
Yeah, Exact Dream, Blunt Rotation or whatever. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But like, if someone could point to me the one or two common genre hallmarks between both Bony Ver and Hayley Williams, I guess that's maybe a little bit closer, but like Tyler and the Cure, it's a mess.
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B
Yeah. So that's the thing. It's like, who knows? It's anybody's guess.
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A
Well, best of, best of luck, whatever categories you end up submitting to, I can't wait to see you walking. Walking down the pocket there.
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B
I can see it now.
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A
Where do they do the Grammys?
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B
Where? When?
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A
Huh? Yeah, where is it? Do they do them at the Kodak Theater in. No, that's the Oscars. I don't know.
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B
I honestly don't know.
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A
I'm sure your invite will have the address somewhere. Another question I wanted to touch on because I read a great profile of you in the New York Times by the great music journalist Lindsey Zolmez. New York Times approved artist here.
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B
Thank you. Thank you.
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A
And I saw, I think you name checked Leonard Cohen in that article as an influence. And I promise we're not gonna do too much, you know, classic rock, you know.
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B
You're not gonna test me.
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A
Not gonna test you.
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B
Name three songs.
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A
I will test you. If you want. If you want to be tested.
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B
No, I absolutely don't want. Name. Name one person. Do you know about this?
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A
I. I don't think I do. Just name a person.
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B
Name. Just name one. I can't remember who. Maybe it's like, Billy Eichner or something. He just runs up to people and says, name one person, and they're just totally stumped.
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A
Yeah, it kind of takes them back. I saw something on Twitter the other day, or a couple weeks ago. It was like, just name 100 women. Which is sort of. I think it's like, just like a question being posed to men and, like, just to see what, like, who leaps to mind initially for the men.
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B
100.
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A
100. Yeah.
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B
That's a lot.
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A
It is a lot.
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B
I mean. I mean, relatively.
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A
There are plenty of women to choose from.
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B
Sure, sure.
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A
But it is a long list, I think the point.
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B
Short form, you know, Exactly.
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A
Whatever it is, I found myself doing it before I realized, like, oh, I'm just doing it in my head before I realized, like, what am I doing? This is ridiculous. But I think it was just. It's an interesting, like, what do they call this? Rorschach test? To see whether you say, like, my mom, or if you say like, Helen Keller or if you say, like, Joan Baez or like, you know, what. What type of person, like, who's bouncing around in there. Exactly.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
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A
Anyways. A man, Leonard Cohen, you name checked as a North Star of sorts, as in terms of an influence. What.
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B
What.
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A
What is it about Leonard that intrigues you so?
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B
His brevity is unlike any other artist. Like, every word is packed. And I think I've talked. I. Maybe I said this, maybe even verbatim in that article, but, like, every word, every syllable is just so nutritious, and it's so packed with so much meaning. I think of him as like a curator in a museum where it's like, if I put this art next to this art, it gives this art next to different meaning than if I was to put this art next to it, like, with words, you know, Like. Sure. The way he can pack so much meaning and pump so much into a verse, into a line, into even just a word, by choosing how to curate, you know, the context. He's just. God, he was just the most thoughtful. I. I read that Cohen on Cohen, the interview book. Do you know that series? You know, Bowie and Bowie or whatever.
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A
Yeah. I haven't read it myself, but I'm aware of it.
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B
God, it's so damn good. Yeah. I read that before I released my first record as, like a. Oh, I should. I should think about, like, how people get interviewed. That was a huge mistake. It was the most intimidating thing. It's like going on this podcast actually. Like, actually, no, I'm terrible at this,
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A
and I'm gonna try to do a little bit of a Leonard Cohen thing in this interview.
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B
Yeah, I'm gonna be stoic and much more intelligent than I actually am. No, it's. It was. Yeah, he's just. Just one of a kind. And, you know, it's just so sacred. He. He puts. He. He makes, like, the most mundane things. So sacred and so, like, holy, which I think is the beauty of just. Just finding the beauty in, like, these everyday, you know, ordinary things and making them extraordinary. And that's one of the many things I love about him. He is.
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A
He's da man.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And we're gonna. Someone. We're gonna be maybe having a little more to say on a regular basis on. On the podcast in the near future. So. I've been. I've been reading more of his poetry recently, which I have not. I, you know, I've not really read a bunch of Linda Cohen poetry, to be honest, and read much of it, and most of it, I'm just dipping my toes in there. But, like, the early stuff, I feel like the economy of language that he has, he was kind of training himself with, you know, not consciously training himself that way, but it's a skill.
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B
Maybe. Maybe he was. I mean, it's very Buddhist, it seems.
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A
Yeah, I think. I mean, I think it's a skill that, like, the poet has to learn and has to internalize in a way that, you know, certainly like the prose writer or in many cases the musician, the songwriter maybe doesn't think along those lines quite so much. At least, you know, in terms of the type of poetry that Leonard was writing, you know, which is brief and short and to the point, free verse type stuff. It's an interesting sort of background to have that you then take that skill set and then put it into a field where it's extremely useful. But it's maybe not a skill that you develop or have quite as strong a sense of if you are just diving into songwriting headfirst, you know.
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B
Yeah. Yeah, I could definitely see the case for that. Have you. He also. I think he started his career with a book. I read it a long time ago.
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A
Yeah, there's Beautiful Losers and there's. Oh, yeah, what's the other one? I've got it. The Favorite Game I'm looking over at my bookshelf right now. I haven't read either of those, but they're supposed to be. Maybe not that good, but I'm. I'm interested to read Pretty.
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B
Pretty out there. Beautiful Losers is pretty out there.
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A
That's what.
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B
I should reread it. It's been a long time, so I can't. I can't actually remember anything about it except for this one strange scene. But. Yeah, I wonder. I wonder, like, what. How that evolution happened for him, going from, like, long form to short form to, like, very thoughtful. Short form, you know, Precise. Yeah. The precision. Yeah, yeah.
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A
What's your background as a songwriter? I know you talked about, I think, training as a pianist and a trumpet player. We get some of both. Plenty of both on this album. But were you writing songs at the same time that you were just, like, training on instruments?
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B
No, no. My mom forced me to play piano when I was five years old. Very much against my will.
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A
Cool.
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B
And it was very. She was very, very strict. She had me playing after school, 45 minutes a day. Kitchen timer on the piano. Could not get, like. It was. It was. It was a lot. It was, you know, and I actually appreciate it now, looking back. And I. I really wish I would have kept going because I think I was actually pretty good for my age and pretty, like, focused. But when we moved from Saudi Arabia, I quit. It was, like, too easy. You know, when you're, like, parental figure, like, you know, what is, like, really easy? They're like, what. What they really care about and you, like, rebel against it. She made it too easy to know, like, how I could, you know, needle
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A
her a little bit. Yeah.
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B
Yeah, exactly. So as soon as I was at an age where I was, like, rebelling, I thought, you know, I'm. I'll. I'll quit. I'll show her. I'll just quit piano and regret it later on. No, that was so. That was my first. That was my first experience, like, you know, playing music. And then I wanted to play. I actually wanted to play saxophone. Lisa Simpson was my biggest influence when I was. When I was what? How old was I here? I was in fifth grade.
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A
Oh.
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B
I had to choose an instrument and
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A
you're speaking my language. Fifth grade was just like, come home from school. There was like, of a bunch an hour block of Simpsons on Fox every day. You just sit down and just watch that.
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B
Exactly. And this was me in Saudi Arabia as a kid. Damn. So, you know, we're more alike than you would know. And so we so Lisa Simpson was a huge influence. I wanted to play saxophone, but there was like a weird system where it was like based on your grades or something or availability or something like that. So you had to put a first choice and a second choice and second choice. I didn't know what to put, so I just like put trumpet because my brother played trumpet briefly. So I thought, okay, what the hell, I guess I'll just put that. Well, I didn't get my first choice, unfortunately. And so now, man.
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A
So you would be a saxophone player if you had just gotten your first choice on the form?
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B
Well, yeah, I would be. I, I, I wish, I, I wish I did because then maybe I could also like translate that into flute or like clarinet. I don't know actually if that's true, but, but now I have a, you know, trumpet collecting dust instead of saxophone. So those are my first, you know, experiences in music. And it was long before I tried writing. That came later when I, when we lived in Houston and I was in high school, I started getting more curious. It became like the idea of playing music became seem like cool and not like nerdy. And so I was meeting more, you know, creative types and was like in musical theater and, and, or like theater and, and, and band and stuff. And I got curious about the piano again night. And you know, I think Fiona Apple was huge around high school then and I was like really curious about that kind of songwriting. And so I, I, you know, took my hand to that a little bit, but nothing really serious. I, I picked up the guitar in college and just like naturally started like finger picking. I didn't really know what I was doing. So that, that stuff is all very intuitive and, and I, I kind of like it that way. Interesting because, because like any experience I've had on an instrument classically, I feel like, has kind of stunted my ability to like write with like a beginner's mind, which is something I think and talk a lot about when it comes to guitar.
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A
Sure. Yeah. I feel like it, it sounds to me like, you know, a lot of the musical, like early experience that you had was more as like, like, like skill based development as opposed to like artistic exploration, if that.
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B
Exactly, exactly. And so, yeah, it's like, like it's like asking like a ballet dancer to dance like, like, you know, freestyle, like hip hop or something.
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A
Right.
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B
It just doesn't really happen that way for some reason.
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A
Yeah, well, and especially when that's like the sort of the experience that you have, you know, as just this thing that you're Being told to do by your parents the same way that you're told to, like, eat your vegetables and, like, do your homework as soon as you.
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B
Yeah, that's a great point.
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A
As soon as you can start to say, like, no, then, like, you know, you want to do that. Even though, like, honestly, it seems very tight to have, like, been such an accomplished, practiced piano player from such a young age.
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B
Well, now looking back, I. What a. What a wonderful trajectory that would have been to play, like, concert halls and be, like, a solo pianist. I mean, not that that's on the table for everyone, but, like, definitely could. And you know, in the same breath that's. I. That's kind of. I. I quit trumpet because in Houston, Texas, I was playing trumpet and I had to at one point choose between, like, trumpet and dance or trumpet and theater or something. And I was like, well, what am I going to do with trumpet? Like, it's not a career. And then, of course, I come out to LA and I meet trumpet session players, you know, and I'm just like, oh, God, well, I didn't know that was an option, you know, and so you just kind of. You're just so limited in your understanding as a kid and. And it would have been cool to. To take those things a little bit more seriously and think about the trajectory. I don't know. We're just. We're not given enough information as kids. You know, we're, like, told, you know, like, it's a. It's a little bit of, like, dreaming big to. To think, like, oh, this could actually be a career. But that would have been encouraging.
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A
Oh, totally. Yeah. How are you? I guess I don't think your child is quite to the point where you're gonna be drilling them on piano, but, you know, is any of this informing decisions that you're planning to make as a parent yourself?
- [29:19]
B
Oh, it. Ornie is informing decisions. Like when she eats. I try not to, like, show how primally exuberant I am when she eats something because if she sees how happy it makes me, she might refuse something because she knows it'll. It'll hurt my. My being, my core self. Yeah, no, I think. I think it's wise to not, like, live through them vicariously and just, like, present options and present, like, the potentials beside the potential behind each option. And I think that's something that's, like, naturally occurring also because she's seen me play and, like, been to a couple sound checks, and she sees us, like, play music around the house, and it's always Just, like, available. It's not. And also, she's, like, too young to, like, really, you know, start that. That kind of practice.
- [30:19]
A
Yeah.
- [30:22]
B
But I'm very much kind of. I don't know. It's a hard line to walk because, like, for instance, my brother was. He. He played piano. He played piano for one day.
- [30:34]
A
Okay.
- [30:35]
B
And he wanted to play, like, rock piano, like, like, Great Ball of Fire or something.
- [30:40]
A
Sure, Absolutely.
- [30:41]
B
Yeah.
- [30:41]
A
Little rich or something.
- [30:43]
B
Yeah. And so. And he was. When he was, like, learning scales or whatever it was, he was like, what is this? This sucks. I want to play rock and roll on piano. And so he quit right away. He. He made it one lesson. And so, like, I don't know, somewhere between the two, where I want to, like, encourage growth and make it. Present the opportunity but not be, like, militant about it, you know?
- [31:09]
A
Right. Seems like a delicate needle to thread.
- [31:12]
B
For sure. For sure. It's a long way to fall. It's not that I'm stronger, just been here a little bit longer.
- [31:55]
A
Do you have any tips as a parent of a young. I ask because my wife is scheduled to give birth in October, so I've got. Oh, my gosh, a whole new world ahead of me coming up soon.
- [32:11]
B
Oh, my gosh. I mean, it's. Do I have any advice?
- [32:17]
A
Tips, Tricks? Just tips, tricks, you know, a little, like, hack for, like, making it. I'm sure, you know, everyone's got that one weird secret that makes parenting a newborn just like. Like, totally easy. Right?
- [32:33]
B
I don't know. I. Well, okay, I. I think, you know, what gives me a lot of comfort is when people say that, like. Like the. The. The person their kid was like, the day they were born is like, kind of more or less the same person they were they are in their teens or in their 20s or whatever. I find that really comforting where, like. Like the. The nature versus nurture. And of course, nurture is so, so important. And it's. You know, think. Speaking of my album and stuff, it's like, what I talk a lot about, the way that kids are nurtured, but. But I really do think there is something to be said about, like, the innate personality that comes out from day one and to like, protect that and like, like cherish it and. And let them lead, you know, And I also. Something I do with my kid, which I really enjoy doing, is like, different ways to show her that I'm on her side. I think, like, you know, diff. Like, parents of a different generation were really quick to say no and really quick to, like, Discipline and stuff like that.
- [33:50]
A
Yes.
- [33:50]
B
And one thing I get a lot of joy out of is like, really, simply put, is like putting things in her reach. Like, like when a baby reaches for something and they can't get to it, a lot of times, like people will like remove it or like, like, oh, you don't need that or you want.
- [34:11]
A
Yeah, keep it, keep it away from the baby.
- [34:13]
B
Keep it away.
- [34:13]
A
Yeah.
- [34:14]
B
And one thing I really like reveled in is like bringing things closer to her. To reach, to allow her to reach them.
- [34:20]
A
Interesting.
- [34:21]
B
And this is like such a weird, specific thing to get into, but it was just one of the, one of the ways that I really found myself bonding with her to let her know that like, I want you, I want you to be able to like reach the things that you want and I'm gonna help you. And I won't do it all the time. I won't, I won't do it for you, but I'm gonna help you get what you need. Well, you know, I don't know. That's such a weird, you know, tangent, but, but that's my feedback.
- [34:55]
A
I appreciate it. Listen, I can use all of the help and advice that I can get, so.
- [35:01]
B
But no one's, no one's going to know your kid like you do. And so I, ultimately I think you're going to just, you're just going to find your way. The most important thing. Yeah, you are. And also just accept that you're going to be in the shit for a while.
- [35:15]
A
I'm making that mental preparation. Right.
- [35:17]
B
Yeah.
- [35:18]
A
Right now.
- [35:20]
B
Yeah.
- [35:21]
A
Does she come on tour with you when you're like out on the road?
- [35:26]
B
That's not something I'm willing to do yet. Right now she's, she's two and she's very wiggly.
- [35:33]
A
Sure.
- [35:35]
B
And tour for me is very, very small scale. Like just trying to survive right now. Like, I don't, I don't. Yeah. A lot of times I don't really. I don't even have a tour manager. And so it's just a really small scale thing. So my, my way of dealing with having a family while I'm touring is just to keep the tours brief and space them out. It's not the most economic way to do things. But like for instance, in the fall we're doing like really these like bite sized legs, like going on the east coast for like four shows.
- [36:09]
A
Sure.
- [36:10]
B
Doing the Midwest for like four shows, going up the west coast for a few shows. So. And that's like spaced a month apart.
- [36:19]
A
So.
- [36:19]
B
That's my solution as of now. I do see. I have this vision of it working out when she's like a little older and less Riley, like us, you know, traveling together and, and it, it looks beautiful in my mind but right now it would be absolute chaos.
- [36:35]
A
Seems. Yeah. With a two year old like maybe biting off more than you could chew with that.
- [36:40]
B
Yeah. Like the thought of like loading out in a dark alley with a two year old, I just don't, or like gas station pit stop. I just don't. It doesn't feel like the safest way. The way that I'm touring that, that
- [36:55]
A
makes plenty of sense.
- [36:57]
B
Yeah.
- [36:59]
A
I want to go back to your, your own childhood a little bit if you'll indulge me. Because one of the most fascinating parts I think about your story, your journey is your time in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia, which like, you know, I don't typically have the like most charitable impression of the nation of Saudi Arabia.
- [37:23]
B
Sure.
- [37:24]
A
Just based on you know, kind of my understanding of the way that they carry themselves on. At least you know, the Sauds in particular. But at the same time I guess I don't know that I really know what like normal day to day life is like for normal people in a place like Riyadh which like typically, you know, you're just seeing, I'm just seeing like Neom and the line and all these insane like hotel develop just like crazy shit. What. Can you just like explain what that was like, what it is like?
- [38:01]
B
Yeah, I mean I get what you're saying. I, I, I feel like I had such a quote unquote normal childhood. I, I feel like I had such a magical childhood. But also it was like so atypical. I, my basically my parents moved to, my dad moved to Saudi Arabia as basically like an immigrant worker from Syria.
- [38:25]
A
Right.
- [38:26]
B
And he took a job there from like that he saw like in a newspaper, you know, as an electrician. And he stuck with this company and worked his way up into this like this, this, this company that has its own like expat community compounds and stuff like that. And so this one he ended up managing a compound that was meant for like contracted for American school teachers. So the school that I went to, Cesar, which was the American school, their international school. And so they moved to Saudi Arabia, not even like speaking English, working for a company that housed American Americans teaching at an American school. And eventually put, put me and my brothers into this American school learning English more or less as a first language when they didn't even Speak English.
- [39:33]
A
Wow.
- [39:33]
B
And so there was this, like, weird exchange happening at home. And. And so I had this weird blend of an Americanized person that was, like, primed for America. Like, as I said, I would come home and I would, like, watch the Simpsons or, like, watch David Letterman or something because of the time change and. And, like, you know, before school and watch MTV and. And all this stuff. And so I had, more or less an American upbringing in this compound that was very sheltered from politics, and it was kind of like this oasis. And legally, as well, it was protected from, like, the matawa and the religious police and things like that. And so as a kid, I was walking, you know, around in my bathing suit on the street, and, like, things like that would never fly outside of the compound. So I had a very, very sheltered experience in that sense. So much so that I was traumatized to leave. Of course, now, looking back, I totally understand why my family had to leave before, like, we became adults. And I would have had a very different, probably, perspective on what, you know, when I reached an age that I had to wear, like, an abaya or a burka. Burka. Yeah. And so, I don't know. I. I had a very specific upbringing there, and one that I felt very, very protected and very sheltered in, which is a lot of what the record is about. But that's pretty unique to my situation. Sure.
- [41:21]
A
Yeah. It's just. It's. I mean, that's a fascinating story. So you. You had been born in Syria and then moved to Riyadh, and then, like, kind of grew up in this, like, remotely Americanized bubble without ever having actually, like, lived in America, at least until you.
- [41:38]
B
Yeah.
- [41:38]
A
Came to. Man, that's. That's wild.
- [41:40]
B
Isn't that bizarre? Isn't that bizarre? And then also, just, like, this language barrier that I experienced to this day with my parents, because they put us in this American school that my, you know, was. Was. Was provided for us by my dad's work because he worked for the compound that housed American school teachers. It was just as a very unique trajectory, very specific to this situation.
- [42:09]
A
Interesting. So your parents, like, speak or spoke or. I mean, like. Like, Arabic was their native tongue, and then, like, Armenian.
- [42:18]
B
Arabic. Turkish. Yeah.
- [42:20]
A
Wow. Okay.
- [42:22]
B
Yeah. Pretty. Pretty common place to speak those languages in Syria and Lebanon. My mom was born in Syria, raised in Lebanon. I was born in Syria, but only really just to be born. My. My parents took leave for me to be born around their family, because at this point, both my brothers had been born in Saudi Arabia. And so I think. Think they just wanted to experience being like sharing that experience with extended family in Syria where, where everybody lived at the time. Sure. So we were only there for like a few months before they relocated back to where they were living in Saudi and then would just like visit. Syria was still kind of home base where we would go every Christmas and every, every, like summer just to be around our family and cousins and aunts and uncles and all that. But as far as we knew, my. My brothers and I saddy radio is home for my parents, serious home. But we were living as Americans and is, you know, it's very confused.
- [43:31]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very unique, you know, series of circumstances, you know, a very like, redolent of the, you know, globalized late 20th century in some ways. The fact that like, American culture is imported to this, like, you know, theocratic state and then you can like, grow up in this, you know, almost as an American quote unquote, without, you know, and then you went, you immigrated to the States, what, like in your teens sometime?
- [44:00]
B
I was 10. 10.
- [44:01]
A
10. Damn.
- [44:02]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so funny because, like, people ask me, well, what's it like to be an immigrant in America? And the fact of the matter, it's always been a blend.
- [44:13]
A
Right.
- [44:13]
B
So I was like, I felt like an American in Saudi Arabia that had never been in America. And now I'm like, you know, Syrian, Armenian or whatever in America. So it's. It, it wasn't, it was very jarring at first, granted, because just culturally moving from it had more to do with living in a compound that was like, very insular.
- [44:36]
A
Sure.
- [44:37]
B
Than it had to do about like, the language or the culture, like, you know, pop culture or whatever it was that I think that had a bigger impact on me than like, being in a different country.
- [44:50]
A
That makes sense.
- [44:52]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [44:52]
A
As well. Especially if you're just like watching the Simpsons and Letterman. Like. That's.
- [44:56]
B
Yeah, exactly. Over here. Yeah. It could be anywhere.
- [45:02]
A
What is it like? I mean, we don't need to get too political here, but I can't help but wonder what it's. Especially with your connection to Syria and Lebanon as well, what it's like to sort of be existing as an American these days with eyes on what's been going on over there for the last couple years.
- [45:21]
B
Yeah. I mean, it's really frustrating. Something I've been talking about for this record campaign is about how frustrating it is to not have a connection to a country, a whole entire country or several countries, in fact, just because, like, some men decided that we're not aligned with them or something, you know, and there's a really, really long tale of consequences because of it. You know, all my family had to leave Syria, and now a lot of them, not all of them, a lot of them left. Some of them are still there, but now they're. A lot of them are in Armenia. And you would think that would make sense, but it's actually such a different culture. It's a. It's a culture shock for me as an Armenian to be in Armenia, just because our diaspora in Syria is so Different.
- [46:18]
A
Different, sure.
- [46:19]
B
The dialect even is different. So, yeah, it's really frustrating. And I think that some people fail to recognize that even in the best case scenario when, you know, thank God everyone's relatively safe and not being, like, actively bombed, you're still, like, torn apart. And I have, you know, a family, one of my cousins who escaped Syria on a dinghy to Greece and, like, made his way to Vienna. He's still there. He hasn't seen any of his family since the. The beginning of the. The war in Syria, man. Which was, you know, aggravated in large part due to our president at the time, Obama, who's one of the better ones.
- [47:07]
A
Right? Absolutely.
- [47:08]
B
Still, but still, like, made a bad situation much worse by arming opposition who was lined with terrorists, actual terrorists, you know, just. Just making the. The country in, you know, making it impossible for people to stay there. And so. So, yeah, it's really. It's really frustrating. And then also, not to mention all the propaganda that we've been served about, you know, Syria and, And, you know, don't get me wrong, I don't want to be like an Al Assad sympathizer or whatever it is, but that situation was not black and white the way that it was presented in Western media.
- [47:53]
A
Right? Yeah.
- [47:55]
B
Does that answer your question?
- [47:57]
A
Yeah. I mean, it seems just like an impossible series of interrelated conflicts that no matter what choice someone ends up making, it ends up leading to negative outcomes. It's like, you know, your choices aren't like, good versus bad. It's like bad versus worse. And especially with the way that, like, you know, certainly since the way things have wrapped up and not wrapped up, but the developments in Syria over the last year or so, and like, the Israeli states, you know, campaigns in Syria, in Lebanon, it just. It seems like it's, you know, probably going to continue to get worse before
- [48:38]
B
it gets better at a certain age, I think, like, when you're Young and more naive. You think like, like it takes some smarts to be a politician and like, some smarts to like, make these kind of calls that affect everybody's lives. And then you realize turns out a bunch of bullies. It's just a bunch of bullies that don't know how to have a conversation. Like, even like, like this makes me think of when I, when it was like the one year anniversary of the Ukraine and Russian war, and it was a one year anniversary and it was, I was listening on npr, they were saying, like, they're coming to the table for the first time to talk Russia and the United States. And I was like, wait a second, this is the first time they're talking. How can this be possible? Like, And I just, it just feels like there's not an actual respect for the lives being lost.
- [49:32]
A
Right.
- [49:33]
B
When people can't. Can't talk to each other and like, and you know, and this whole idea of like, well, we don't negotiate with terrorists. Terrorists to who?
- [49:43]
A
Sure.
- [49:44]
B
You know, labeling terrorism when there's so much state sanctioned violence that is accepted, it's just, it's just ridiculous. And so to answer your question, it's very frustrating.
- [49:59]
A
I. I cannot imagine. I, you know, I know how frustrating it is to me and I'm just a guy, you know, with zero actual personal stakes anywhere in the region, you know, on the other side of the planet. So for someone with obviously roots and history and family still there, it must just be, you know, orders of magnitude more frustrating.
- [50:21]
B
Yeah, well, you know, if you've got a heart, that's all it takes, I think. And it makes me think of like, what Aaron was talking about. About like the kids drive. Like your kid lives here.
- [50:31]
A
Yeah, the signs.
- [50:33]
B
You don't have to have a kid that lives there. You can just care, you can just imagine about other kids.
- [50:37]
A
Exactly. I take it you haven't been. I think in the Times thing, I think I'd mentioned you were back in Riadville, seemingly the last time in 2019.
- [50:48]
B
Yeah.
- [50:50]
A
No plans to go back anytime soon, I'm guessing.
- [50:53]
B
No, I just, I was, was. It's really. It's hard to imagine that I would never be back, but it's just not. It's one of those places that like, was made by the people, you know, like, if my parents aren't there, my fan, if my brothers aren't there, what
- [51:09]
A
is there to go back to?
- [51:10]
B
Yeah, I don't know. And you know, and it's funny, like, you know, definitely there's like this Rebranding happening in Saudi Arabia where they're like, have a nightlife and you know.
- [51:19]
A
Right.
- [51:20]
B
And they're like progressive in the sense that they're like. Like have concerts now.
- [51:25]
A
Yeah.
- [51:26]
B
And things like that. That are kind of funny. And I don't know, like, if. If I was actually ever invited to go, like, I would. I don't know what. I don't. I don't know what to think. I wouldn't know what to think. But. But no, I haven't been back and I don't. I don't know that I will.
- [51:47]
A
It's fair enough, at least. Everything is going so great and smooth here in the United States.
- [51:53]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We've still got running water here. I guess that's good.
- [52:00]
A
That counts, you know, honestly counts for something.
- [52:03]
B
That's huge.
- [52:05]
A
It is huge. Well, to transition far away from this. Sorry for making you go so geopolitical on this.
- [52:15]
B
No, it's actually something I really enjoy about talking. Talking about, but sometimes I get a little long winded, so I apologize.
- [52:22]
A
No, you don't need. I appreciate it. Despite the fact that I host a music related podcast, most of the reading and other podcast listening that I do myself personally is more related to like, you know, geopolitics and political economy and stuff like that. So it's fun for me. Fun. It's engaging for me to get to just, you know, indulge this side of my.
- [52:47]
B
Yeah, sure. I feel like I don't get to talk about it enough either. So I actually, Yeah, I enjoy it.
- [52:53]
A
Wonderful.
- [52:55]
B
The.
- [52:55]
A
The record itself, which I feel like we've spent nearly an hour not talking about. Summer's Gin.
- [53:02]
B
Right.
- [53:03]
A
But I think that's, you know, I think that's. I think that's sign of a good conversation is, you know, when you can talk about things other than the things that we're ostensibly supposed to be here. Talking about.
- [53:15]
B
What.
- [53:17]
A
Musically, I was kind of fascinated by this album because it's got such a sort of. I don't know, there's like. There's bossa nova songs on here that are sung not in Portuguese, but in. I guess. I don't.
- [53:30]
B
I. Armenian.
- [53:31]
A
Armenian. Okay. I thought that might be the case, but I didn't want to assume. There are also the, I guess mor sounding songs on here, you know, quote unquote, to use whatever random person described it that way. There are also just like some rock songs on here. There are some piano. I guess it's a unique musical stew to me. How did you. How did you manage to blend all of these different influences and sounds into one cohesive collection.
- [54:06]
B
Yeah, I don't know. It's not something I think a whole lot about. Ultimately. It's all coming from me. And so that even if that's the only thread, I feel like that's enough. You know, I get. I guess I could say that, like, I really did want to shake up the songwriting a bit, and which is part of the reason that I wanted to try writing on piano just. Just to, like, I don't know, you know, four records deep now and just wanted to, like, see what I could do a little differently, and that would influence the songwriting, the songs, and the singing style. Also, like, going on tour with a lot of people, opening up for different people, I. I started to notice that I was, like, envious of the way that people would sing out. And a lot of the songwriting that I was doing was very hushed and, you know, backed by this, like, really skeletal. Skeletal guitar picking. And so I wanted to fill things out a little bit. So that's like, the reasoning behind the more piano driven stuff. But then, you know, there will always be, like, the more kind of Cohen inspired things, like the song Canopies and. And, you know, the bossa nova type stuff is always. I don't know, I don't really have. I think it's so intuitive. I'm really limited on the guitar, and I just kind of end up going where I can. And so I don't. I don't think about it too much
- [55:37]
A
and kind of happens.
- [55:39]
B
Yeah, it just kind of happens. And I think, like, the vocal is kind of spearheading a lot of this stuff anyway, and so that's all gonna sound more or less similar. So. So, yeah, I think it. I think it always makes sense together.
- [55:58]
A
Yeah. No, I certainly agree. It's all very warm and humanistic, I would say, regardless of whatever particular signifier any one song might have within it. Yeah, I mean, I know there was. There are some supplementary documents that came along with the press packet, so I know the answer to some of these questions. But, you know, a song like Canopies, for instance, what. What is that about?
- [56:32]
B
Right. So that song was written, that was inspired by my mom's background. I came to a point where I was just getting more and more curious about her upbringing. And it's funny how long it takes for us as kids to get more curious about our parents. You know, it's kind of almost embarrassing that it takes so long. Sure. But I was just, like, getting to a point where I was really curious about it and more aware of, like, their mortality and how they won't be around forever. And I think that was also a result of them, like, getting to a point where they were going to be retiring soon and these, like, big, big chapters closing and. And, you know, my connection to Saudi Arabia closing and stuff. And so I was asking her more and more about her upbringing and. And this one, the time I was talking to her about it, I decided I would record it because I just kept forgetting the details. And. And while we were talking, she said something about her mom that totally struck me. And it was what she would say. Well, basically. Well, I guess I. I should start by saying that it's the story of her mom giving her up to this orphanage to. To protect her from an abusive father that threatened to take her away from her. And so the legal age in Lebanon for a father to take a child away was seven. So as soon as she was seven, her mom took her from Syria to Lebanon and placed her in this orphanage and kept her there until her, like, early teen years years. And she lived nearby in this apartment of a family member. And she would say this thing that was. That I translated to be in the song Waves waves fold over and send her scent to me from the rugged cliffs of the Mediterranean to the cliff to the bars of my balcony. And it was just basically about her longing for her daughter, even though she put her in this orphanage. And it really. It really struck me because it was like, thinking about, like, the. The big sacrifices that we make for our family and specifically our, like, children to keep them safe. And. And that was kind of aligned with the. The major theme of the record, which is childhood safety and how my parents made it. So I always felt safe. I didn't really have to even consider my safety. And that was, you know, in Saudi Arabia in the 90s at a time where a tumultuous time, certainly. And so, yeah, I wanted to write a song from the perspective her of her mother. And so that's what. So that's what it's about. That's where it came from, man.
- [59:35]
A
That's. I. I didn't realize that.
- [59:37]
B
That.
- [59:37]
A
That her mom lived, like, close by. That, like, that seems particularly difficult to be, like, so close and yet so far, you know?
- [59:49]
B
Yeah, yeah. No, and they. They had a strong bond, and she would be there. I think it was like. I think she said, like, Sundays were visiting hours, and so every Sunday she would come by and my mom would just be, like, counting the minutes to see her again. And, And. And like, what strikes me so much about that is that there's not a thread of like resentment or sourness or like anything from my mom. There's a stoicism about it. Like she knew, she understood why she had to make that decision and respected her for it, looking back. And it was just understood that that was something that she had to do. And so they kept their bonds, stayed strong throughout that time, and she would visit as often as she could.
- [60:39]
A
Yeah, I mean, if anything, it sounds like the most loving and careful and responsible decision that could have been made. And yet it seems so easy to imagine if you're the child, your mom, in this case, on the end of that decision, feeling like it's the very opposite of this responsible, caring, forward thinking decision.
- [61:02]
B
Totally, totally. And I was just so impressed by that. And it just made me respect the situation and her that much more and appreciate. Even though, you know, it's like, like any other family, we have our challenges and, and mother, daughter, you know, conflicts and stuff like that. But it's really fun getting to an age where you get past a lot of that stuff and start to appreciate each other as people, as like whole people and not just like a person that's there to serve you.
- [61:38]
A
Absolutely.
- [61:39]
B
Yeah.
- [61:40]
A
How does your mom or how do your parents feel about an album turning their personal history into, you know, the, the material for artistic exploration?
- [61:56]
B
Oh, yeah, I got a lot of deep feedback like, oh, that's nice. Oh, that's cute. Oh. So anyway, what are you doing today?
- [62:05]
A
Yeah, what do you want for dinner?
- [62:06]
B
Yeah, it's really funny. Like, it's the most humbling thing. They're so supportive, but they also have no idea what I do. You.
- [62:17]
A
Great. That's honestly probably best case scenario.
- [62:20]
B
Probably. It's so funny because, like, I'll be like, oh, mom, I just got this New York Times feature. And she's okay, that's nice. Did you get my package? Let's like verbatim the conversation we had
- [62:34]
A
about that fantastic, like end of story life, life's achievement, you know, that, that any artist would ever dream of. And you know, it's just like, yeah, it's great. I'm, I'm glad.
- [62:46]
B
It's really, it's really funny. And like, it's. Yeah. So. So to answer your question, that's the kind of feedback I get. They're just like, okay, whatever you do, you can you pay the rent? Okay, good. That's good. Yeah, that's pretty much the, the long and short of it, to answer your question.
- [63:06]
A
Easy enough. Are they In Los Angeles with you these days or.
- [63:10]
B
No, they're in Armenia, so they. They're fully retired. They're in Armenia with a lot of my family there and. And they're visiting here. They. They visit when they can. They're actually going to come here pretty soon. Okay. And help out. Thankfully for when I start going out on tour here and there.
- [63:32]
A
Sure.
- [63:34]
B
So. Yeah.
- [63:35]
A
Well, fortunately, you're in a place here in the States where there's a strong, you know, Armenian. Armenian community.
- [63:41]
B
Yeah. We actually do have some family here too, so they get to be. Still have a community.
- [63:46]
A
Look at that. It's, you know, the whole world conspiring together to make things just for us, just. Yeah, exactly.
- [63:54]
B
Yeah.
- [63:57]
A
Geez. Well, I mean, there's plenty of more material here, but I don't want to eat up too much of your time. I. I know we blocked these things for about an hour and I know as a working parent, I'm guessing you've got some other responsibilities on your plate today. Any other points you wanted to hit or statements worth making?
- [64:25]
B
Not specifically. I mean, if you have any other questions that you wanted to get to, I'm happy to answer them, but no, I don't think there's anything specific that I need to cover.
- [64:36]
A
Okay, cool. What. How about this? What's. What's. Where in. You don't need to dox yourself necessarily, but what general vicinity of Los Angeles are you. Are you in. I saw you mentioned, you know, being in some. Being off of Sunset Boulevard at one point in one of the things I read.
- [64:56]
B
Yeah, we're. I'm on the east side, like, near Echo Park, Silver Lake, that kind of stuff. Historic Filipino town, certainly. Yeah. Nearby there.
- [65:05]
A
I'm. I was there for. For many years myself. What's. What's. What's your favorite neighborhood haunt? Cafe, restaurant? Grocery store? Erewhan.
- [65:18]
B
Not. Not quite my. Lately, the thing that makes me feel most like myself is going to Squaresville in Los Feliz and. Which is like an excellent vintage store, and then topping it off with a visit to Skylight Books.
- [65:40]
A
Sure.
- [65:41]
B
And treating myself to a new book classic institution.
- [65:44]
A
Skylight Books.
- [65:46]
B
Exactly. That is like. That is the most peaceful, like, treat that I allow myself and most like, indulgent thing that I allow myself to do these days when I have some time to myself.
- [66:05]
A
Indulgent. Go. Going to a couple stores in. In.
- [66:09]
B
I mean, in Los Feliz. Hey, brace yourself, buddy. Yeah, exactly what I'm talking about.
- [66:15]
A
I do that. That's. It's. It's frightening me already. That just. Even the concept of going out for an hour, of strolling around is an indulgence.
- [66:24]
B
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [66:26]
A
Oh, geez. Yeah. That little strip of Los Fields is great. I lived further down Vermont, like in Koreatown area, but I would take the train or the bus up Vermont all the time and just, you know, House of Pies, that's a classic there. The theater is great. What a wonderful little.
- [66:46]
B
All in one block. It's so great. Yeah. The trouble, the trick is just finding the parking. Once you're there, you're golden.
- [66:52]
A
Once you're there. Exactly. I love the. I guess it's not technically Los Feliz, but it's. It's kind of the kismet, you know, down the block is one of my favorite restaurants in the.
- [67:02]
B
Yeah, okay.
- [67:05]
A
I think we can leave it there. Oznim, thanks so much.
- [67:09]
B
Thank you for having me. This is really cool. Cool. Absolutely not scary.
- [67:16]
A
That. That'll be the perfect button. I'm glad I didn't hit the stop recording button until you said. Thanks again. To Osneve Korkesian. Her new album as Bedouin, Neon Summer Skin, available now. Bedouin on tour this fall. Give it a spin, pick it up, catch a show. Namaste, Jokerman.
- [68:27]
B
Kahankisti.