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- [00:00]
Ian
Jokerman podcast is brought to you by Distrokid and their new direct to fan tool. Allowing any artist to sell merch. Distrokid Direct allows artists to create a merch store in minutes without any upfront costs or any technical skills or know how they'll take care of all the logistics and the nitty gritty. And as with distribution through Distrokid, they never take a cut of the proceeds. You, the artist, keep 100% of your earnings. Once again, that's Distrokid Direct. Open a store today@distrokid.com direct. Welcome back to Jokerman In Conversation. I'm Ian. Another interview episode for you this week alongside our Death Grip series running exclusively on Patreon, this time with a bonafide rock legend, Mr. Mike Campbell, formerly of the Heartbreakers, as in Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, currently of Mike Campbell and the Dirty Knobs, who have just returned with their fourth album, Mission of Mercy, the title track of which heavily inspired, indebted to one Brian Wilson, who's a familiar subject here on this program. Truly a treat to get to rap with someone as storied August and just chill as Mike. Such a good sport, fielding all of my incessant questions and even going along with just a little bit, just a smidge of bob talk true confessions to her era talk here at the end of the interview. Let's get right to it. Here is the one and only Mike Campbel.
- [01:58]
Mike Campbell
In your hour of despair, words add up to nothing, nothing at all. When you're feeling sad and scared.
- [02:22]
Ian
Mike Campbell, thank you so much for joining us on Jokerman.
- [02:26]
Mike Campbell
My pleasure.
- [02:27]
Ian
Pleasure is truly all mine. Incredible to have a certified bonafide legend here on the pod today talking about, well, all sorts of things. I guess we'll see what we get into. But most relevant to our interests here today, new record, Mike Campbell and the Dirty Knobs. Not out as of the time that we are speaking, but will be out by the time this episode posts. Mission of Mercy, which I guess, I mean, there's no other place to begin. Title track, all about influenced by one Mr. Brian Wilson. Can you tell us a little bit about just how that came to be?
- [03:05]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, it's pretty obvious that it's inspired by Brian. I've always loved Brian and the Beach Boys. And I had this song, it's like 20 years old. It was in my tape library and my technician, technician pulled it out one day and I thought, well, that's what was I doing, you know, it's like trying to produce something as if Brian Wilson would produce it, you know, with the voices and the chords and stuff. And I was just having fun with that idea. And then I thought, you know, wait a minute, this is a pretty good song. You know, this might really fit in with all this other rock and roll stuff we're doing to show a little more depth in the songwriting and the production. So that's how it came about. It was just me, you know, 20 years ago, fiddling around, seeing what I could do. And then, well, it holds up pretty well.
- [03:52]
Ian
Here we are today. Absolutely. It's got to me. I was. I was trying to think, like, you know what? Because it does have some very clear Brian Beach Boys era sonic signatures to it, but not like. I wouldn't say it's like Pet Sounds type stuff. It almost had more like a Surf's up, you know, type flavor to me. A little bit kind of shaggy or like early 70s era Beach Boys, which is like, one of my favorite windows there.
- [04:18]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, me too.
- [04:19]
Ian
Yeah. I mean, did you, I guess, like, did you ever, like, you know, run into Brian or ever kind of, like, you know, get in the same. Talk to him, hang out with him or even, like, jam with him at any point?
- [04:30]
Mike Campbell
I did not get to jam with him or work with him, but I did meet him a couple of times. Met him at the studio once. Tom and I went down and he wanted Tom to overdub on some song. And so I took my 54 Chevy Bel Air down there. Brian was really excited about the car. He thought it was the coolest car, but he was just, you know, I didn't talk to him much because I'm kind of intimidated. But he was amazing. It was amazing to watch him work. He goes, so Tom sang apart once and he goes, so are we going to stack them? And Brian said, yeah, we're going to stack them. How high? He said, we're going to stack them pretty high.
- [05:14]
Ian
That sounds like exact. I can totally picture Brian Wilson saying exactly those words, even with that intonation.
- [05:20]
Mike Campbell
He's got that genius, childlike quality to him, which is incredible.
- [05:26]
Ian
When was that? When would that have been?
- [05:28]
Mike Campbell
Oh, God, that would have been 80s, 80s.
- [05:31]
Ian
Okay, sure. So, like, kind of when he was coming back, like, going solo for the first time.
- [05:35]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, it was a brother's studio, so he was healthy and. And the Dr. Levy was not around.
- [05:42]
Ian
That's good.
- [05:43]
Mike Campbell
So I guess it was after that period where he was coming out of that.
- [05:46]
Ian
Yeah, coming out of it.
- [05:47]
Mike Campbell
Yeah.
- [05:47]
Ian
It was a tough, tough, tough time for old Brian. But Lord, Knows he powered through it. What is he? I mean, what does he sort of represent to you or signify to you? Both as like, a musician, as a producer, and then also, obviously, sort of like a signature Southern California rock artist.
- [06:06]
Mike Campbell
Yeah. To me, in a word, he signifies hope. You know, as a little kid in Jacksonville, back in the day, it wasn't like today, where you can get music all the time or concerts all the time. In Jacksonville, we were lucky to get one concert a year from a big band. And sometimes it would be the Beach Boys. I saw them once in Jacksonville with Brian in the band.
- [06:29]
Ian
Wow.
- [06:30]
Mike Campbell
Like, the striped shirts and the early, early days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was just, you know, to me, his music and his aura and all the songs that he wrote was this dream fantasy of a beautiful life with hot rods and girls.
- [06:46]
Ian
Sure.
- [06:46]
Mike Campbell
And I'm stuck in Jacksonville living next to a paper mill in a duplex. And I totally bought the fantasy, you know, and those songs have so much exuberance and the feel, not only the construction of his, you know, production and writing, but there's just a feeling of love. And in that music when it comes on today, I still feel it, you know, it was just hope, you know, like, life is okay.
- [07:12]
Ian
Absolutely.
- [07:13]
Mike Campbell
Yeah.
- [07:13]
Ian
Lord knows we could use that. Use a little bit more of that message these days. I mean, that strikes me as, like, kind of the quintessential, like, ideal Beach Boys intro story as a listener. And I think that's exactly what Brian and the rest of the band would have. Want, like, were trying to do way back when in the striped shirts is. You know, even if reality didn't work out quite so cleanly, you know, it wasn't all hot rods and beach babes for them, even back in the early 60s. Like, that was the image to project and the image to sell. And so, like you said, you know, if you're in Jacksonville, you get one concert a year, like, and the Beach Boys come to town. Like, it really. You want to sort of be blown away and swept away to an alternate dimension.
- [07:57]
Mike Campbell
Yeah. They're, like, spreading love, you know, Same as the Beatles. They're spreading love, you know, and it's. It communicates with people all across the country. It's definitely gotten into my blood. So that music, I wore out all the Beach Boys records, listened to them, studied them, enjoyed them, and I think, hopefully. Well, obviously some of it seeped into my DNA. So when I make music that's in there in me, and sometimes that feeling I can pull from it, you know?
- [08:25]
Ian
Yeah, absolutely. I Guess. How would you say that Brian and the Beach Boys influenced, you know, the work that you've done over the years? First, obviously, you know, throughout your time with Heartbreakers and then, you know, anything since then. Because I wouldn't say that the Beach Boys are necessarily like, one of the first groups that leap to mind just on a sonic level in terms of, like, influences. When I'm thinking about, you know, my Campbell music.
- [08:50]
Mike Campbell
Well, the sound. Yeah, the sound of the Beach Boys records was always so beautiful. The harmonies and the way he mixed the instruments. Even in the early days, there was just. It just caught my ear, you know, it's the 60s, you know, it's like I'm one of those guys, you know, Mr. Beatles, Stones, Kinks, and the Beach Boys. Sure. And many others. But the Beach Boys were right at the top of my inspiration. And I don't know why. I just connected. I think it was just the. The songwriting, the sound and the feeling that they were putting across just resonated with me.
- [09:27]
Ian
Totally makes sense. What are we. What are we. What are we talking in terms of favorites? Favorite records? Favorite songs?
- [09:32]
Mike Campbell
Well, the first record that I could afford to buy, actually, I had a. The album A Hard Day's Night.
- [09:39]
Ian
Okay, that's a pretty good one for a first record.
- [09:42]
Mike Campbell
And then I had All Summer Long Deuce Coupe, one of those albums I
- [09:47]
Ian
love All Summer Long. That's a perfect.
- [09:49]
Mike Campbell
My friend had that, so I traded him for the Beach Boys.
- [09:53]
Ian
But.
- [09:53]
Mike Campbell
So, yeah, I liked, you know, God, all those. Even the. Even the Deep tracks are really good, you know, a lot of them, and it's hard to pick one. I mean, you know, fun, fun, fun's right up there. Absolutely shut down those early records. Of course, later on I was completely blown away with. With, like you said, Surfs up and Long Promise Road.
- [10:15]
Ian
Oh, I love Long Promise Vibrations.
- [10:17]
Mike Campbell
And, you know, God only knows. I mean, forget about it, you know, so. So it's fascinating to me that I heard something in the surf band that had legs, you know, I didn't know, but I didn't know they were going to grow into this Pet Sounds, you know, behemoth or whatever.
- [10:35]
Ian
Absolutely.
- [10:35]
Mike Campbell
But I followed them right through, you know, and he never let me down.
- [10:39]
Ian
Yeah, he's. He really is just a one of one type character, Brian, you know, such an innocent and pure soul. And obviously no longer with us as of a year ago.
- [10:51]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, I know.
- [10:53]
Ian
Yeah. But, you know, it's crazy to think, you know, you mentioned when you went to visit him in Brother Studios, you know, Landy wasn't there. Fortunately for everyone involved in that. Like, you think about that, such a just insane kind of fucked up history and just like endless trials and tribulations that he went through and to be able to survive all of that and then even kind of come back as strong as he did and have this unbelievable kind of second half of his career from the 80s into the 90s, the 2000s, you know, all the Smile stuff, all the live Pet Sounds performances, there's something very, like, inspiring about that to me. I can't really think of another way to put it.
- [11:33]
Mike Campbell
It's inspiring, you know, and it's a. It's. It's a. He has some dark stuff in there, you know, and the music business will definitely do a number on your head, you know, and I'm sure he went through all that idol worship and pressure and stuff, and if you're fragile, it will break you, you know, And I think it kind of broke them for a while there. But like you said, it was. It was great to see this guy that you love come back, basically come back from the dead and still be vital, you know?
- [12:03]
Ian
Absolutely, yeah.
- [12:04]
Mike Campbell
It's quite a story.
- [12:05]
Ian
Absolutely. Yeah. That's the. That's the amazing takeaway for me. You know, I guess one of many amazing takeaways is, is that, you know, kind of, he is. Brian is such a sensitive and pure and kind of occasionally fragile soul. And yet at the same time, he is still able to just power through all of this. Just these overwhelming circumstances that seem like, to me at least, you know, I would get. I would get washed away. So I think his. His quiet strength is something, something. Something quite impressive about him. But I mean, on that note, you know, yourself, obviously you're sort of the. I'd say like generation after Brian kind of second wave or third wave in rock history. But you've been around the block once or twice at this point. How has it been?
- [12:50]
Mike Campbell
Yes, for sure.
- [12:51]
Ian
How has it been for you as an artist, like aging and continuing to kind of chart new directions and constantly stay restless a little bit into your golden years?
- [13:03]
Mike Campbell
Well, for me, it's just been a lot of gratitude, a lot of luck, a lot of hard work. You know, I love music and I love that I have a life where I can do music for my job. You know, it's not really a job to me, but I'm really fortunate that way. And I've always used, you know, Brian Wilson, the Beach Boys and the Beatles as, as kind of role models for how to. How to proceed. You Know, with your career as. As the years go on, because it's also a struggle for an artist if he has some success, then whatever you do after that is always measured against that success.
- [13:39]
Ian
Totally.
- [13:40]
Mike Campbell
So there's pressure on you, whether you notice it or not, that you're pushing to do something, you know, that's better than something you've ever done before, you know, and of course, you're not always going to do that, are you? So it creates some pressure and stress. So I just. I've always been able to weather that, you know. Fortunately, I was in a band with a. A leader who was the focal. Visual focal thing of the band, and so a lot of it didn't get on me. You know, I was a guitar player standing next to Tom, and he was the front man, and my job was pretty easy as far as that was. So he was able to. I mean, he. Tom went through a lot of that too, you know, the star pressure and success pressure. And I was kind of on the fringes of that, so I was able to scoot along without too much angst.
- [14:35]
Ian
What has it been like? I mean, so obviously, like I said, the record that we're here to talk about, Mission of Mercy, Mike Campbell and the Dirty Knobs, you've been doing this is what, the third, Fourth Knobs record, I think.
- [14:49]
Mike Campbell
Fourth album.
- [14:49]
Ian
Yeah. And this has been going for some number of years at this point. What is it? I guess. I don't know. It almost seems like a bit of a trip to me and a bit of a mind fuck to, you know, like. The Heartbreakers are one of the legendary rock bands and you have the whole career and then obviously, the heartbreaking conclusion with Tom's untimely passing, but then to sort of, like, wake up the next day and, like, start over from square one, like, you know, all over again. What is that? Does that ever sort of seem imposing to you or overwhelming, or is it just like, you know, this is what I'm meant to do, so I'm just gonna do it.
- [15:30]
Mike Campbell
Imposing, but not overwhelming. I mean, grief. Grief is a. Is a heavy thing, you know, and I'm still grieving a bit. It was very traumatic. My best friend, you know, and my. My songwriting partner and my. The guy I shared my life's dream with, you know, just poof, gone. I had to deal with that. And, you know, I took some time to just, you know, reflect. And then I realized, you know, what am I going to do? Well, I'm going to do what I always thought I would do if the Heartbreakers ever stopped. And that's work on my own band and write my own songs. And that's what keeps me alive and keeps me happy. So I just decided to do that. Then I got the call from Fleetwood Mac to do that tour, which is out of the blue. But that helped me get through my grief, gave me something to focus on, you know?
- [16:19]
Ian
Sure, yeah. Touring the world with Fleetwood Mac. Maybe like one of the few bands that you could say is as big, if not maybe even a little bit bigger. Bigger than the heartbreak That'll get you out of bed in the morning.
- [16:31]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, well, you know Tom, God bless him, he. Like I said, he was my best friend, among other things. But he left a big hole, you know, in the world and in my life just by. By being gone, you know, my friend was gone. I couldn't talk to him anymore, I couldn't write with him anymore, so. But it happens to, you know, life. Life happens and you deal with it and you move on. And fortunately I have a great band now who supports me. And I have an outlet for my music and I'm able to still play and survive.
- [17:02]
Ian
Yeah, I just, you know. The name of our show here, Joker Men, obviously comes from Joker man. Song from one Mr. Bob Dylan. Maybe the preeminent example of a man who's been able to constantly just reinvent himself and find new ways to keep powering through. You've seen some of this firsthand, of course, and. But it always just blows me away that like, you know, you think about like the Wilburys, for instance. I think about the Wilbur. I think about the Wilburies all the time. I love those Wilbur's records. But like when they, when they came out, I think the first one was like 88, 89. Bob was like late 40s. Tom was pushing 40, I think he was late 30s. And like they seemed. Bob in particular seemed just like ancient, like totally just like he was at the end of his days. And like that that's closer to the beginning of his career than it is to his current day career. You know, it's closer to the early Bob Dyl than it is the late Bob Dylan material. And that's even sort of true to a slightly lesser extent for Tom or Jeff Lynn or George obviously ended up passing early as well. I just, I don't know the scale, the length of some of these careers. Especially for an art form rock music that at the beginning is thought of by the critics as just this teeny bopper fad surf music. You see the Beach Boys on that note, as well. I'm constantly kind of blown away and in awe of how much gas there is in the tank for this.
- [18:29]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, well, you know, you start off being a musician, and you don't know where it's going to go.
- [18:35]
Ian
Right.
- [18:35]
Mike Campbell
You know, you. You want to have a band, you want to have a record, eventually you'd like to have hits, and you'd like to play big concerts and all those years, you know, decades, I just had my nose down doing the job today and just moving forward, not reflecting on the past or where I've come. But things morph as you go along. I mean, the Heartbreakers, we weathered through the. The punk phase, the new wave phase, the disco phase, the Grinch phase, you know, and we were just there doing our thing. You know, sometimes we were out of favor, and other times, oh, these guys weren't so bad after all. So, you know, but you don't know where you're going to go. You know, you don't know how your career is going to play out. You don't know how the industry is going to morph. I mean, it's morphing really weird now, but, you know, you just keep going and make it up as you go.
- [19:24]
Ian
When did you kind of first get the sense, like, oh, something's happening here? Like, when did you first wake up one day and realize, like, you know, I'm not just doing the thing that I want to do, which is like playing a rock band, you know, you're starting to realize, like, oh, this is turning into something significant, you know, something that is, like, really, like, impacting the world at large. What was it like to just kind of come to that realization?
- [19:49]
Mike Campbell
Well, it was surprising. I think the first time I realized that I was in the right place was when on our first album, when Tom brought the song American Girl into the studio. And I remember distinctly cutting that song. And the Heartbreakers were just getting to know each other a little bit. But when that song all came together, all the elements came together, that's when I first felt, you know, what I'm in. There's something here. There's something here that's. That. That nobody else can do this like us, you know, we. That this is our thing, and we. I can. I can ride this. You know, and then maybe the. The next time I. I got the feeling that I was going to be okay was. We went to England, you know, we put our first record out in America. It didn't do much at all, but the English press latched on to us that year, so we went over to England and they were all excited about us. And I remember thinking, well, this is going to work, you know. And then when I got my after torpedoes, when I got my first, you know, big check, I remember showing it to my wife, say, look, we're gonna be okay. And so, you know, and of course, later on, it was the Boys of Summer and little, little highlights that. That poked through, that were revelatory, you know.
- [21:08]
Ian
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you go down like your credit list here, you know, just in terms of like, obviously the Heartbreakers records, solo records, other records that you've played on, you know, live performances with other artists. I mean, I don't know. I don't know many other guys who have been with as many. I mean, you know, you got Warren Zevon, you got Don Henley, you got Bob, obviously, you got Stevie. I mean, you've just been sort of Fleetwood Mac, to say nothing of. You've sort of been like the man, right? Just like off center. And like you were talking about Tom kind of taking a lot of the attention. You just kind of getting to ride it pretty slow and steady off to his side. Like, I'm just amazed at how many different all time icons that you've gotten to work with over time. How have you been able to sort of transition so. Because, you know, I reel off some of those names and there is some similarity between someone like a Don Henley and a Bob Dylan, for instance, but like, they're also different artists, certainly. Warren Zevon. What is it like to kind of move into working with these artists who are so well known and significant, but each do their own unique thing, and you've kind of got to fit into the vision that they have for their music.
- [22:26]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, ain't I something? Well, you know, honestly, Ian, I'm like, I'm still a poor little kid from Jacksonville, you know, when George Harrison walks in the door and says, hey, I like the way you play. It's like I have. I have to take a minute. My head spins around like, is this real or is this a dream? And all the way down the line from Bob Dylan, Roy Orbison, Dale Shannon, Jeff Lynn, I've had the fortune, good fortune, to cross paths with these people. And it's like I have this book out and I talk about it in the book. Like, it's just, life is for me. I'm not the luckiest guy in the world, you know, Things have just come to me and I don't know why. I'm just so lucky. But meeting these heroes of mine and Maybe even getting to work with them and have them compliment me is like. It's almost hard to process. It's like, okay, well, I'll just kind of, you know, grin and bear it and move on. But then when I look back on, it's like, wow, that was pretty cool.
- [23:23]
Ian
Yeah, it strikes me as the kind of thing where you gotta, like, you almost have to, like, just keep your head down and not overthink it a little bit. Because, like, if you get in your head too much about it and, you know, like, you realize where you're at one day, you realize like, oh, shit, yeah, that's one of the Beatles right over there. And I'm just this guy from Jacksonville.
- [23:44]
Mike Campbell
Well, I don't know who said this. It might have been Dylan, but he said, you know, nostalgia is death. And I know what they meant, whoever said that. And I've never looked back and marveled at. At the things I've done. You know, I'll glance it, but I don't go back and listen to those records anymore unless they come on the radio or something. And I'm very proud of them. But I don't want to live there, you know, I want to move on. And that's. I think that's how I stay happy. Because if you get lost in the past and start, you know, trying to live up to your. Your hype in your own head, your ego can eat you alive, you know, So I try not to go there.
- [24:23]
Ian
Absolutely. No, I think that's a healthy. A healthy approach to it especially, you know, you see a lot of artists these days, or not a lot, but some artists at least are doing like the final tour, the farewell tour, or like playing, you know, like, you could obvious. You could obviously do like a, you know, play all the torpedoes back to front type of concert. But, like, you know, I think. I think that way lies danger a little bit, at least if you're trying to stay vital and active and interesting more than anything else. Because obviously there is just such an extraordinary legacy and history at this point. But, you know, you know, you can. You kind of can't rest on your laurels a little bit or you wouldn't want to.
- [25:03]
Mike Campbell
Well, I can't yeah. Don't let me out no fish Fade away into the night don't feel my head went down I won't give up without a fight I'm too young to suffer I'm too old to crawl I'm too lost to give a damn about anything at all Let me back in my dream
- [25:47]
Ian
I can't help but wonder a little bit, like, what. What was it like in. In Fleetwood Mac on those tours, you know, kind of coming in to pinch hit for someone like Lindsay?
- [25:58]
Mike Campbell
Well, it was interesting. Like, a main thing for me personally is it really gave me a challenge and something to focus on so I didn't dwell on my grief, which was really sweet of them. I took it very seriously and it. I was forced to do things I've never done before, like learn other guys guitar parts. I love Lindsay Buckingham. And so I took on the challenge of, okay, this song has to have this guitar part and I have to play it as good as I can because that's part of the song.
- [26:28]
Ian
And he's such a unique guitar player too.
- [26:31]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they chose me because they thought I could do it, you know.
- [26:34]
Ian
Right.
- [26:35]
Mike Campbell
And I. I got. Of course, I'm not him, you know, he's not me. I couldn't see him going out and doing the Heartbreakers and sounding the same as the Heartbreakers either. But I did my best to honor his contribution to the songs. And they treated me like royalty, you know, they were so kind to me. We traveled, you know, first class all the way, went all around the world. And they were all very kind to me, every single one of them and their crew. And it was a very positive experience. But it was hard at first until I got. Until I got a handle on how to handle the guitars, but. But you know, I'm a quick learn.
- [27:11]
Ian
Sure. And you obviously had had a history of working with. I mean, Stevie in particular had you worked with like Mick or John or Christine in other contexts, only peripherally.
- [27:20]
Mike Campbell
But, you know, one thing they did for me that was really, really great is in rehearsal we were learning. Oh, well, sure. And we had. They had hired Neil Fan to do Lindsay's vocals and I was doing the guitar parts. And so in rehearsal we were doing. Learning that. And Mick says you should sing it. And I thought, well, why? We've got. You know, he said, he said, he said, I think. I think you have a handle on that song. So I ended up doing that song every night, which gave me a lot of confidence in my presence, in my voice and confidence there. So that was a great thing they did for me.
- [28:00]
Ian
Cool. Yeah, A. Well is a real.
- [28:03]
Mike Campbell
I mean, it's not much singing, but it is just the. The weight. I would look around and go, fucking hell. You know, that's Nick fleetwood and John McVie. And I'm up here doing oh well.
- [28:12]
Ian
Doing oh well and well, especially it's such a heavy kind of, you know, weighty song by the time. Certainly by the time you get to, like, the solo and stuff. Like, you kind of want to be singing it as you're playing it. Because to me, it feels like the vocals and the guitar, like, you know, one kind of levels up the other. And so if you're doing them together, you really get into it.
- [28:32]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, you're right. I think Mick recognized that, and he had the confidence that I could do it, you know, and I wasn't used to seeing that much, but there I am in front of, you know, 40,000 people at a microphone, you know, like, whoa, better pay attention. But it was fun, you know, Stevie was great. Yeah, she and I have a great history together. I just saw her recently and she's doing great. And it's almost. You know, it's funny, Ian, when you. I talk about these things in the past, you know, it's like time is funny. Like, I think about that and I almost don't remember that it happened. It kind of came and went. It was a big deal in my life when it happened. But now when I think about it. Oh, yes. Like, yeah. I went to high school once. I was in Fleetman Mac. One was in this band called the Heartbreakers back in a long time ago, and I went to college. You know, these. These things come and go and they just become part of your history, you know, but they definitely leave their mark on you.
- [29:27]
Ian
Absolutely. Well, let's talk a little bit more about. About the new record again, Mission of Mercy. The title track, Mission of Mercy, I think is interesting for any number of reasons. We obviously open talking about it, it being a nod in the direction of Mr. Wilson. The rest of the record doesn't really sound like that, I think, in general here and there, but it's definitely a kind of dirtier to steal a word from the name of the band.
- [29:57]
Mike Campbell
It's a rock and roll boogie band, mostly.
- [29:59]
Ian
That's right.
- [29:59]
Mike Campbell
I had reservations about putting that song on because which was our fourth album. People might think, like, what are they doing? You know, this is not them. It's not what they sound like. But it is what we sound like when we do that song, you know, And I wanted the fourth album. I wanted to take some changes, you know, and I just do the same old routine. Have some surprises in there, and that one's different. Definitely a surprise. But I really like that song and I think the. The lyrics, it's a good message, which is useful today, and some of the other things on the Album are a little different from what people might expect of us. I hope we don't lose people, but we'll find out.
- [30:34]
Ian
Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think so at all. You said Mission of Mercy, you know, the song was something you'd been tooling around with a couple decades ago, I think. Right, yeah. Is that the case with most of the other songs here? Some of the other songs, or are these more the product of like contemporary writing sessions?
- [30:51]
Mike Campbell
No, most of the songs, I think 3/4 of them were written for this album. So they're current songs.
- [30:59]
Ian
Okay.
- [31:00]
Mike Campbell
A few. I dug back in the past and stumbled onto something like, ooh, this is good. This might fit the album. But no, it's mostly fresh stuff.
- [31:09]
Ian
And so when you are sitting down to write songs today, new material, I think there's some songs that are just rock and roll boogie numbers, I guess, to use your phrase there. But then I think there's some other ones that are a little more. I'm not gonna say like social message songs necessarily, but things that are a little more outward looking and commenting on the world around you. Vagrant, for instance, at the end of
- [31:34]
Mike Campbell
the record, O God. Yeah, that's definitely going to confuse people. Yeah.
- [31:38]
Ian
Which I think listening to it I picked up is that. That seems to be set in San Francisco. Is that right?
- [31:44]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, it's kind of a tone poem about the San Francisco area. Yeah. And it was not supposed to be on the record. It was just a warm up one afternoon I had words and I said, here's some jazzy chords. I'll just talk over this. You guys just warm up and get your sounds. And I never thought it would be on the record. And then as we were putting everything together that kept popping up and we go, well, this is really going to weird some people out. But there's something cool about that.
- [32:10]
Ian
You know, I like that at the end as like a final, you know, final kicker on the way out the door, a little bit of a hard left turn.
- [32:16]
Mike Campbell
Yeah. Now it reminds me a bit of Dylan's song if Dogs Run Free.
- [32:23]
Ian
Yes.
- [32:23]
Mike Campbell
Maybe Tom Waits or Frank Zappa. Where it's just like, you know, goofy words, you know, that kind of makes sense, but it creates an illusion, you know, so that's, it's like, you know, beatnik shit. Sure.
- [32:35]
Ian
Listen, you're speaking my language, brother. Okay. Yeah. The Dylan reference, it's funny you mentioned if Dogs Run Free because also on that record on New Morning, it ends with three angels and then Father of Night, which are These kind of weird, you know, sort of beatnik shit at the end of that album. And it doesn't bear a whole lot of resemblance to what comes before it, you know, like, if not for you or Day of the Locusts, for instance. I dig when an album has got this just sort of like, huh Moment there at the very end.
- [33:08]
Mike Campbell
Are they kidding?
- [33:10]
Ian
Is this supposed to be here? No, that jumped right out at me. Anyways, I guess just when you're putting something like that together, when you are looking at the world around you and responding to it in writing, I don't know, do you. Do you set them naturally to you? Is that something that, like, you feel like you have to work at, or is it all just kind of part of, you know, whatever's up there in the old brain?
- [33:34]
Mike Campbell
Writing is never work. If it is, it's usually shit. Writing is just picking up the flow of the inspiration that comes to you in that moment. And I try not to analyze it or. I rarely have a specific idea for a song. I have a few lyric concepts in a groove, and then as it goes on, I start to piece the words over the music. And then I might look back and go, oh, this is. This is a little more political than I want to be. Maybe I'll change that because I don't really want to preach to everybody.
- [34:06]
Ian
Sure.
- [34:06]
Mike Campbell
Every now and then, you know, a little subtle, you know, I raised. What did he mean by that? You know, but politically, I mean, you can't not be affected by it. But, you know, you got to be careful now. As writers, you have to be careful what you put in your songs with your lyrics, tricks. Because things have changed so much and people are so, like, wound up about political correctness and. Which is good in a lot of ways, like with the misogyny and stuff. I think that's a good thing. But you have to be careful what you put in your song. You might see it as a joke or just an offhanded comment, and. And then someone will hear it and go, well, you're this or you're that. Who do you think you are? So I try to stay away from anything that I think might, you know, make people angry. I want to entertain and have fun and hopefully spread some hope and inspiration. So if there's a little. Well, there's another song called Armageddon, which is a little.
- [35:01]
Ian
Yes, it's called Armageddon.
- [35:05]
Mike Campbell
And so there's. There's a. You know, I like to call attention to the fact that I'm aware that there's A lot of bad going out there. But I'm not here to preach it or tell you what you should or shouldn't do. I'm here to take your minds off of it, hopefully for a little while.
- [35:20]
Ian
I feel that. I think we all could use our minds being taken off of this crumbling reality that we're faced with on a daily basis. And it's great that there's still some great rock and roll music that can do it for you.
- [35:37]
Mike Campbell
See, even the song. You're right. Even the song Armageddon, which is really dark and about. I guess basically it could be about the end of the world, whatever, but at the end, you know, it's like. But the sun won't fade away, you know, So I like songs that maybe set up a dark mood, but then have redemption at the end, you know, and hope and so I think that takes the weight off of that song. Gives it a little. You don't want to slit your wrists at the end of a tune, you know?
- [36:03]
Ian
Sure, absolutely. I mean, it's a little. It's little to go back to Beach Boys again, you know. You get a little bit of that out of the, you know, out of so much Pet Sounds material. You get a little bit of that out of like Till I Die from Surf's up, you know, this song that seems like Brian is just at the end of his, you know, desperation. But at the same time it's this beautiful, life affirming musical composition. So it's. It's a complex listening experience.
- [36:26]
Mike Campbell
That's a beautiful song. There's so many of them. But yeah, you know, he would sometimes go dark and touch on the dark. But all writers do eventually. And so. And myself included, I'm not in that category. But it's. Writing is. Is fun, you know, it's. It's a mystery and you don't really know where these things are coming from. They're coming to you from some other dimension and you're accepting them.
- [36:52]
Ian
Sure.
- [36:53]
Mike Campbell
And I'm just grateful to be a receptor.
- [36:56]
Ian
That's right. Just a vessel for the muse, you know? Yeah. You don't have any control over it. You have a little control over it. What, what is it like when you. I guess so. How do they come together when, when you're in the studio with the band these days, are you just coming with a lyric sheet and then people start working out chords or is it more of a collaborative.
- [37:19]
Mike Campbell
No, I write. I write the songs. So far I've been writing all the songs for this band, but I have a Lot to get out of my system over decades.
- [37:28]
Ian
I can imagine.
- [37:29]
Mike Campbell
No, you know, the Dirty Knobs is a great band to record with because I've got a home studio which is state of the art, and it's all set up, you know, I don't have to go to the studio and set up drums and spend hours moving mics around and changing amps and this and that. So when we work here, I just come in, I have a song or two or whatever, you know, on my phone. Usually I have the lyrics on my phone or I'll print them up before I perform them. But I show the guys a song, and they're mostly simple songs, and as soon as they know the chords, we record it, you know, And I like to catch it on the first or second take before they really know what they're doing, you know. To me, that's where the cool happens. So we do it really quick.
- [38:13]
Ian
Not a lot of overdubs or inserts or anything.
- [38:16]
Mike Campbell
No. Well, like. Well, Mission of Mercy was a demo of mine that had a bunch of overdubs on it. But the Dirty Knobs, we don't do a lot of overdubs. I like the solos are live on the floor. I like to have the guitar players go for it when it gets there and not have to go back and piece together an overdub solo. I mean, occasionally you have to, but that's not the way we operate. I like to move along fast. And our producer, George Herculius, is right in there with me. So we get in there and, you know, bang it out. And the guys are so good, you know, it's never like, well, this would have been great if you guys hadn't sped up or, you know, but they never do. It's like they're always right there. For me, it's a great band.
- [38:52]
Ian
Yeah. No, I mean, I think that when you. When you have the right players assembled, like, that solves all those problems for you in the first. Like, you could do overdubs if you wanted to, or if you wanted to tune something up. But, like, it's the right crew playing at the right tempo. Everyone kind of knows where they're supposed to be and they're cracking players. So, like, why. You know, why. Even around with it, you know.
- [39:12]
Mike Campbell
Well, if it's right, it's right. You know, it's like, that's right. It's fresh. You're gonna go back and overdub it and you might fix that, you know, little bit there that you wanted to nudge it or Whatever. But it's not, you know, it's an overdub. It's not in the. In the juice. And the chemistry on the floor for people are, you know, feeding off of each other. And that's a. It's a. A subtle thing, but I can hear it. And I think most people can hear it, too, if it's all pieced together or if you're all playing together and all the. I grew up with, you know, we're all people playing together at the same time. So we're on the same boat with that. We get in there and do it pretty quick.
- [39:48]
Ian
Totally. Yeah. I mean, that's. That's one of the great things I think about. So many. Basically, every Bob record, you know, first thought, best thought, just like, get in there, cut it, and then on to the next thing. Even if there's, like, you know, if there's a, I don't know, flubbed note or a, you know, vocal note that he doesn't quite hit, like, it doesn't matter. Like, it's about the kind of the spirit of the song, and I think that's what comes through.
- [40:10]
Mike Campbell
Well, if there's a calamity in the track, you know, like, if the bass player falls over and just. Or if I sing way out of tune somewhere because I didn't know what I was doing, we'll fix that, you know. But generally we get. I get the live vocal on, and a lot of times I end up using a lot of it. Occasionally I'll go back and try to get a better sound and sing it. Maybe I'll change the word here and there, but you need to have the vocal for me. And with the Heartbreakers, too, we always had Tom sing along on the takes, so it's got the interaction between the voice and the music.
- [40:41]
Ian
Sure. Yeah. I wonder what the experience of recording with the knobs is like compared to the experience of recording with the Heartbreakers. Like, are you kind of operating in the Tom role in this group the way that Tom was with the Heartbreakers, or is it sort of a different kind of overall experience than making a record with Tom and the crew?
- [41:05]
Mike Campbell
No, I am. You know, I watched Tom for, you know, almost 50 years, and I learned a lot from him. You know, he learned a little bit from me, but I learned a lot from him. So in this band, I am the highest court in the land. You know, I am the guy.
- [41:17]
Ian
Sure.
- [41:17]
Mike Campbell
And I'm the leader. And I've settled into where I'm really comfortable with that in terms of recording the Last four or five Heartbreakers albums, we were at the same place where we want to record live. You know, we would set up at our clubhouse and we would do like I'm doing now in the early days, like during the Damn the Torpedoes era, there was a lot of struggle to get the sounds and to move things around and try this and try that and blah, blah, blah. A lot of tedious prep before you got to the take. But Tom and I both got fed up with that approach. You know, as we got older, we wanted to, hey, let's just get everybody playing live. And they're so good, they probably won't make any mistakes. And if we've got the arrangement right, we'll get a magic trap and then we don't have to overdub on it.
- [42:08]
Ian
Makes sense. What are you planning to do? I guess, are you planning to take us out on the road soon? Tour?
- [42:18]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, we have a tour in July. We're going to be out three months or something.
- [42:23]
Ian
Tight.
- [42:24]
Mike Campbell
Let me take a break. Then we go back out again in the fall. So we're working. Yeah.
- [42:28]
Ian
Beautiful. What is it like touring in 2026? Because you've been, you know, you've been all around the world and then some over the last, like half century at this point. Right. I imagine that it's a little bit different these days than it might have been back in, oh, let's say 1976.
- [42:44]
Mike Campbell
Well, in 1976, we were driving around, all five of us in a bread truck. You know, it's literally in a bread truck. In England, we had a bread truck with benches on either side. We'd sit there and bounce.
- [42:58]
Ian
You know, that's the rock and roll lifestyle right there.
- [43:01]
Mike Campbell
We shared rooms at the hotel, which got to be a pain, but as time went on and we got more successful, of course we started staying in nicer hotels, getting a bus, and later on we had the plane, which I do miss the plane sometimes, but I don't. I can't afford a private plane for the Heart. For the Dirty Knobs. But the Heartbreakers and Fleetwood Mac too, is all, you know, first class hotels and. And private planes and no airports and. But now I travel. I go through the airport and we do get a bus and we stay in, you know, nice hotels. I've insisted on that. And if we do fly, we fly nice, you know, but not in a private plane. Sure. But the, you know, touring is touring, you know, it's. You get from point A to point B and then you play a gig and you do it Again. And I still enjoy playing live. Sometimes the traveling is difficult because you can't sleep or whatever, you know, But I don't mind. I like my bunk on the bus, you know, I like my hotel room and I like the gigs. I mean, that's what makes it all worthwhile. So I enjoyed, I've always enjoyed touring, even when the conditions were weird, you know, it was always like, hey, I'm in a band. I'm playing tonight. Come see me. Sure.
- [44:20]
Ian
Yeah, I guess, you know, you can't, you can't be too upset about that if you're getting up on stage and playing rock music and people are down there below cheering and boogie.
- [44:27]
Mike Campbell
Yeah.
- [44:29]
Ian
Do you feel like. I guess I, I don't even know if you do, but, like, if you gotta reduce it down to a simple dichotomy, like, I tour so that I can stay sharp and write songs and make these records and that's what it's really all about. Or I, you know, write these songs and I make the records so that I can get out on the road and play these shows. Is, I guess, does one aspect of that relationship take precedence over the other, or are they both kind of two sides of the same coin?
- [44:57]
Mike Campbell
Well, writing and recording takes precedence over everything for me. And I mean, I wouldn't want to go out and tour without a new album because then what are you doing? You're just playing your old songs all the time. So the, the records create a need and a desire to go out and play them live when they're finished. But I'm happy staying home just writing and recording. You know, I, I, I love to play. I mean, I hope I always will be able to get out there and do it. I'll do it as long as I can. And, you know, it's a lot of it. A man of a certain age is, is, you know, staying healthy, eating right, getting enough rest when you're on the road because you are jostled around quite a bit and it can be a struggle. But we also are careful. We don't tour a lot. You know, we'll tour, like, we'll go out for three or four weeks and we'll take a break. Which is what the Heartbreakers were doing, too. We never were road dogs, because that'll burn you out. So if I'm only, if I'm looking at three weeks, I can do that. If I'm looking at six months, like, well, I don't know if I can survive that or not.
- [46:03]
Ian
You know, that's what the fleet The Fleetwood Mac, too. Like, Fleetwood. And Mac was doing big, long tours, right? How. How long were you out on the road with them?
- [46:11]
Mike Campbell
God, it seemed like a year and a half.
- [46:12]
Ian
Yeah.
- [46:13]
Mike Campbell
All around the world and back. I don't remember. But it was. It was long, but like I said, it was so, you know, you also need to know. To have certain date. You don't just do, like, five days in a row.
- [46:25]
Ian
You.
- [46:25]
Mike Campbell
A couple of days in a row, get a rest. So they were good about scheduling the tour, that there were times to rest in between gigs and travel. And then the travel, you know, it's like when you have the private plane. You get in the limo, you drive out to the plane, go up the steps, you're gone. You don't have to go through all that. Checking in through the airport, tsa. But the thing is, you know what's funny about that is I. I kind of got spoiled a little bit with the plane, but not really, because I've gotten now where I enjoy the airport, you know, because I. People watch and I might write some lyrics or just. I don't mind it, you know, I. I kind of got. It's okay with me.
- [47:02]
Ian
God bless you. I just. I was down in Texas a couple weeks ago to catch the last couple shows of the Bob tour, you know, that he was doing through the South. And so I'm in San Francisco, so flew down there for a couple days, driving all around Texas, fly back and, like, going out of the Dallas airport. It's just, man, airports, that's. That's my idea. Hell, man, so I'm glad. I'm glad that you're able to get something out.
- [47:22]
Mike Campbell
Well, it can be. It can be like. If they, like, what's going on now with the gas shortage and all, and it gets crowded and flights get canceled, that. That's no fun. But if I just show up and catch my flight on time and get on my plane, you know, I'm okay.
- [47:37]
Ian
Okay. You know, that's. That's. That's.
- [47:39]
Mike Campbell
I find people interesting to watch, too. There's all kinds of people at the airport. You see every walk of life, and I just kind of studied them and kind of laugh at some of them and, like, you know, trip out.
- [47:51]
Ian
Well, I imagine you get to do some good people watching at the shows also. I mean, maybe it's a little difficult to do people watching literally, from the stage. You're playing for the people a little.
- [48:00]
Mike Campbell
A little bit on the. You know, at the airport, you don't. You're not playing.
- [48:03]
Ian
You're just sitting there, you're in the thick of it.
- [48:04]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, but no, I, I, you know, I do like of the touring that we're doing now is we do a thing called meet and greet, which could be 40, 50 people every night before the show. And we go down and sit at a table and they come in and they, they pay a little extra for the privilege of, you know, hanging out with us and, and talking and maybe signing some things for them. So then I get to meet people and I like the fans, they're really nice and thank God they're there, you
- [48:32]
Ian
know, I can imagine. Absolutely. And I would also imagine that, I mean, you gotta probably hear some pretty incredible stories night to night. Just people who are like, oh my God, you know, you like, changed my life.
- [48:45]
Mike Campbell
That's the one. I love when I get that and it's great, you know, I don't get noticed that much, but when I do, people are really kind and some people are very emotional, you know, because the music means so much to them, you know, and they'll come up and say, you know, sometimes they can't talk, they get kind of hyperventilated, it's okay. And then they'll say, you know what your, your music. We played Here Comes My Girl at My Wedding. And your music has been the soundtrack of my life. And I just look at them and I go, mine too. And that kind of disperses any weirdness, you know. That's good.
- [49:20]
Ian
Yeah, I've had on, on an infinitesimally smaller scale of that, but you know, in the few occasions when I've to meet like a listener of the podcast and stuff, it's sort of a weird one way relationship, right, where like someone knows a whole lot about you but you don't know that they even exist. And it's like, oh man, I love that you love this stuff, but I don't really know where to begin in terms of having a conversation. So I'm glad you figured out a way around that problem.
- [49:46]
Mike Campbell
Well, I'm just very, I'm a very open, generous person basically. And I like talking to people as long as they're polite. You know, occasionally you'll get some guy had few too many drinks, he wants to shake your hand and crush your fingers.
- [49:59]
Ian
No. Boy, a couple too many Michelob Ultras at the, at the, at the bar in the back of the room.
- [50:07]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, I've learned over time because some people, they're so excited to shake your hand, you know, and they just crunch you. And I mean, seriously, I go For a show that's the last thing you want. So now I just put my fist up, you know, bump.
- [50:20]
Ian
That's a good way. That's, you know, I'm all for a firm handshake, but it can't be too firm. Especially like, you know, we got. We got a man who needs to go play the guitar after this, so you gotta. Right, right, right.
- [50:30]
Mike Campbell
They don't mean, they don't mean any harm. They're just. They're just overwhelmed with excitement. So I have to myself.
- [50:38]
Ian
All right, well, boy, we've. We've ripped through this pretty quick. I'm seeing we've already done about 50 minutes just before, before we wrap. If, if you wouldn't mind and feel free to say no or I don't have anything good for you. But, you know, I mean, some of the, some of the folks that you've played with, obviously, to say nothing of Tom, for instance, who we've already spoken about at length, like, are just some of my all time favorite, favorite dudes. So if you got any stories or good little memories of note from anything that you did with Bob, like on the 86 tour, for instance, maybe True Confessions, that's one of my all time.
- [51:15]
Mike Campbell
Okay, I'll give you a story from that area.
- [51:17]
Ian
Oh, please. I'll be blessed.
- [51:19]
Mike Campbell
And I, I hope Bob doesn't get mad at me, but it's kind of sweet. We were on tour with Bob and whatever decade that was, he went around the world with him.
- [51:28]
Ian
And it was 1986, I remember. Well, I wasn't alive, but I, I know.
- [51:34]
Mike Campbell
Well, it was life changing just to, to be around him and play with him. And he was. He had a different perspective on showbiz than we do. And we come from the, the world of, okay, you rehearse, you get really tight, you go out and you play it and you please them, you know, and you, you have a set that goes up this way. You play the songs the way they know how they're supposed to sound, and you do a good job and you get a reaction. And his approach is like, I'm gonna do what I want to do. You know, I don't care if they like it or not, you know, which is kind of like, whoa, you know, we'd be kept playing with him and like, okay, it's anarchy, but I can go with this. But there was one humorous Dave, where we had done a sound check was out in a shed somewhere in the Midwest. We had done a sound check and we were just playing around with Lay Lady Lay Bob was not there. He didn't always make. He barely made the sound checks. But the band was playing. Me and Ben were working it out. You know, we sound pretty good just for fun.
- [52:39]
Ian
Fun.
- [52:40]
Mike Campbell
So later that night, we come off the stage with Bob, and we're getting ready to walk him back out to do an encore. And so he looks at me and he says, well, what do you want to play? It's always. It's always a trap, you know. I said, well, we were playing Lady Lay at the sound Chick, and it sounded pretty good. And he goes, you want to do that one? I said, well, if you want to. We know it. It. He says, okay, we'll do that one. So we get out there and we start the song. And I swear he's saying the whole song like this. And the crowd was looking at each other like, I think I know this song. And I'm just, like sitting there going, oh, me and my big mouth. You know what? And he's just doing that. Just, you know. Cause he likes anarchy. Whatever. It pleased him. And so he gets to the end of the song, you know, and he looks over and he sees me kind of going. He goes, how is that? And that's Bob, you know, he's a mischief maker.
- [53:48]
Ian
Mischief maker, you know, Joker, man, you could say.
- [53:51]
Mike Campbell
There you go. There you go.
- [53:52]
Ian
Beautiful. Well, that might be the perfect place to end it, Mike. I'm gonna go dig that up somewhere. I guarantee you there's a tape of that out there. So I don't know that I've ever heard it, but Lord knows I'm gonna
- [54:01]
Mike Campbell
try it in Indiana or Iowa or someplace like that.
- [54:05]
Ian
Okay. Midwest. Okay. And then either 86, 87. And it was an encore. You said late ladylike.
- [54:10]
Mike Campbell
Yeah, it was an encore.
- [54:11]
Ian
Okay. I think I'll be able to find it. Then I'll see if I can never played it again. You learned your lesson the hard way on that one.
- [54:19]
Mike Campbell
Yeah.
- [54:20]
Ian
All right. Well, thank you so much, Mike. Like I said, honor and a pleasure to get to rap with a true rock and roll legend. The album is Mission of Mercy by Mike Campbell and the Dirty Knobs. Folks out there give it a spin and hope to see you out on the road this summer, Mike.
- [54:35]
Mike Campbell
Well, thank you, Ian. You did good. Vagrant he's the son of a glitch Trying to scratch an unreachable itch from the basement room feels like pharaoh's tomb and dark closet gloom Kneeless denim jeans Rich ripped cotton white shirt Like a blooming rose Been dragged through the dirt street dog loyalty sitting sipping Scottish tea Got nowhere else to be He's a vagrant He's a hobo With a bleeding
- [55:18]
Ian
heart for a logo thanks again and to the legend Mike Campbell. The album Mission of Mercy, available now. Mike and the Knobs on tour this summer. There's only one choice to go out on. Here's Bob Dylan singing that beautiful incarnation of Lay Lady Lay that Mike mentioned at the end of our interview. We'll see you next time on Jokerman.
- [55:48]
Mike Campbell
Cry. I love to see you with it, Love. Stare at your mind, Satan.