In Conversation: MOLLY LAMBERT

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jokermen - "In Conversation: Molly Lambert"

Release Date: December 26, 2024
Host: Ian from Jokermen Podcast

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Introduction

In the December 26th episode of the Jokermen Podcast titled "In Conversation: Molly Lambert," host Ian welcomes Molly Lambert back for her fourth appearance. This episode delves into Molly’s latest work, "Double Acts in Pop", an intriguing book that explores the dynamics of musical duos while also serving as a typography showcase for Commercial Type. The conversation seamlessly blends discussions about iconic music partnerships with personal anecdotes and insightful analysis, making it a must-listen for fans of pop music history and design enthusiasts alike.

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Overview of "Double Acts in Pop"

Molly Lambert introduces her book as "an incomplete survey, available now from Commercial Type" (00:10), highlighting its unique fusion of musical exploration and typographic artistry. Ian elaborates on this by explaining, "It's a book about music that is also a typography catalog showing off typefaces" (03:56). The collaboration with Commercial Type allowed Molly to design the book in a visually appealing manner, making it both a resource for music enthusiasts and a collectible item for design aficionados.

Key Points:

• Incomplete Survey: The book covers a wide range of musical duos, offering both well-known and obscure examples.
• Typographic Design: Each section not only discusses the musical duo but also showcases related typefaces, blending music history with design principles.
• Availability: Offered through Commercial Type, with options to purchase online and potentially in select LA stores.

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Jan and Dean: The Beach Boys' Counterparts

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Jan and Dean, a dynamic duo often compared to the Beach Boys. Molly and Ian explore how Jan and Dean served as both collaborators and foils to the Beach Boys, particularly highlighting their relationship within the California music scene.

"Jan and Dean represent what the Beach Boys would be like without Brian Wilson." — Ian (07:02)

Key Topics:

• "Surf City" and Beyond: The duo's iconic hit "Surf City," penned by Brian Wilson, set the stage for their exploration of themed albums like "Folk City" and "Soul City."
• City-Themed Albums: Ian and Molly discuss the creativity and sometimes the absurdity of Jan and Dean's city-themed projects, such as "Folk City" being a minor key twist on "Surf City" (11:53).
• Impact and Legacy: Despite their successes, Jan and Dean never quite reached the Beach Boys' artistic heights, instead carving out their niche as beloved yet somewhat kitschy figures in pop music history.

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The Dynamics of Musical Duos

The podcast delves deep into the complexities of working as a duo, drawing parallels between musical partnerships and personal relationships. Ian compares being in a duo to being in a romantic relationship, emphasizing the intricate balance of collaboration and individuality.

"In a duo it's like a relationship. It's literally like a romantic relationship... a lot of the same dynamics exist." — Ian (40:34)

Key Insights:

• Collaboration vs. Individuality: The necessity for both members to contribute creatively while maintaining their unique identities.
• Longevity and Stability: How some duos, like Hall and Oates, manage to sustain their partnership over decades, while others face challenges that lead to eventual separation.
• Emotional and Creative Tensions: The pressures that come with shared success and the strain it can place on personal dynamics within the duo.

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Case Studies of Other Duos

Beyond Jan and Dean, Molly Lambert’s book covers a variety of musical duos, each with their unique stories and challenges. The podcast explores partnerships like Hall and Oates, Steely Dan, and Loggins and Messina, providing listeners with a broad perspective on what makes or breaks a musical partnership.

Highlighted Duos:

• Hall and Oates: Their seamless songwriting partnership and how they navigated maintaining their creative synergy over the years.
• Steely Dan: The tumultuous relationship between Donald Fagen and Walter Becker, particularly during the "Gaucho" era, and their eventual reconciliation.
• Loggins and Messina: Their collaborative process and how they balanced personal ambitions with their musical partnership.

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Insights from "Double Acts in Pop"

Molly Lambert shares compelling insights from her research, shedding light on the often-overlooked aspects of these duos' careers. The book not only celebrates their successes but also delves into their struggles, providing a balanced view of their contributions to pop music.

"You can read this in, like, a day, basically, like I did." — Ian (61:09)

Key Takeaways:

• Struggles and Triumphs: Detailed accounts of the challenges faced by duos in sustaining their partnerships amidst changing musical landscapes.
• Cultural Impact: How these duos influenced and were influenced by the cultural contexts of their times, from the surf craze to the rise of soul and R&B.
• Behind-the-Scenes Dynamics: Personal anecdotes that reveal the human side of these musical partnerships, including conflicts and reconciliations.

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Notable Moments and Anecdotes

Throughout the episode, Ian and Molly share engaging stories and humorous exchanges, particularly revolving around Jan and Dean’s eccentric projects and the broader music scene.

Memorable Exchanges:

• City-Themed Albums: The duo's attempt to cover various cities through their music, leading to quirky titles like "Folk City" and "Soul City."
• Dead Man's Curve: Discussions about the song's background, its real-life inspirations, and the enduring danger of the actual Dead Man's Curve on Sunset Boulevard.
• Personal Reflections: Anecdotes about listening to Jan and Dean's discography and the emotional resonance of their music.

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Quotes Highlight

• Molly on the Project:
  "It's a very, very cool project." (00:48)

• Evan on Jan and Dean's Obsession:
  "I got really obsessed with every single thing I wrote about for this book." (06:23)

• Ian on Reading the Book:
  "You can read this in, like, a day, basically, like I did." (61:09)

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Conclusion

As the episode concludes, Molly promotes the availability of her book, "Double Acts in Pop," encouraging listeners to explore the fascinating world of musical duos. Ian reflects on the enduring legacy of these partnerships and their place within the broader narrative of pop music history.

"God bless them for making the most out of the straight flush hand of aces that they were dealt by life. We all should be so lucky." — Ian (30:31)

With a blend of insightful analysis, personal stories, and engaging dialogue, this episode of the Jokermen Podcast offers a rich exploration of musical duos, making it both informative and entertaining for listeners who are passionate about pop music and its intricate histories.

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Listen to "Double Acts in Pop"
Available now through Commercial Type and select bookstores. For a visual treat, the book features stunning typographic designs crafted by designer Chris Wu.

Connect with Jokermen Podcast
Subscribe on Patreon for ad-free episodes and exclusive content: patreon.com/jokermen
Follow @jokermenpodcast on Instagram and Twitter.

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Note: Sections like advertisements and non-content segments have been excluded to maintain focus on the substantive discussions.

Transcript

[Ian]

Welcome back to Joker in Conversation. I'm Ian here.

[Molly Lambert]

End of year, sort of liminal space doldrum period.

[Ian]

Christmas is over, New Year isn't here quite yet, and everyone's just hanging out, taking it easy, whiling the time away. Got one more nice little In Conversation interview to slip in your stocking before 2024 is gone. Friend of the Pod, Molly Lambert, coming back one more time to discuss her excellent new book, Double Acts in Pop.

[Molly Lambert]

An incomplete study, available now from Commercial Type.

[Ian]

It's a fascinating book, but also illustration objects for a typeface company.

[Molly Lambert]

Very, very cool project.

[Ian]

And it also gave us the opportunity to talk about all sorts of, you know, like it says in the title.

[Molly Lambert]

Double X in Pop artists that, honestly.

[Ian]

We probably would not really get to on the old Jokerman podcast. Typically, I'm thinking Ike and Tina Turner. I'm thinking Hollow Notes, I'm thinking Simon and Garfunkel, and maybe most notably for our current area of focus, the Beach Boys.

[Molly Lambert]

Jan and Dean.

[Ian]

Some sort of ancillary characters in. In the California saga of Brian Wilson and the Boys of the Beach. They've danced around the episodes that we've talked about here and there, but we haven't really spent too much time getting to the bottom of whatever there is to get to the bottom of with Janadine.

[Molly Lambert]

Not a whole lot, to be quite.

[Ian]

Honest, but there actually is some very interesting material, music as well as literally biographical material that I think is worth.

[Molly Lambert]

Having a conversation about.

[Ian]

As you'll hear momentarily in this conversation with Molly, this was the perfect opportunity to hit it. Without any further ado. Molly Lambert.

[Daryl Dragon]

Two girls for every boy. I bought a 34 wagon and we call it a Woody. Surf City, here we go. You know, it's not very cherry. It's an oldie, but a goodie. Surf City, here we come. Well, it ain't got a fax.

[Ian]

Molly Lambert back once again. Fourth time back on Jokerman at this point, I think.

[Molly Lambert]

Right.

[Evan]

Wow. Four Timers Club Four Timers.

[Ian]

You're up there. It's. It's you, it's Papademus, it's our friend Ray Padgett, it's Stephen Haydn. But we have another podcast. It's really kind of the Grantland Crew. I'm realizing at this point it's true.

[Unknown]

You were watching the yacht rock documentary.

[Evan]

And you were like, I feel like.

[Unknown]

I'm listening to my own podcast.

[Ian]

That's right. And that is the greatest compliment I can possibly pay to anything is that it sounds like me.

[Evan]

Thanks for having me back.

[Ian]

You know, the stew is always open. Welcome. Waiting for you here today, just a couple months after you were here, talking about Randy and a certain character that appears in today's subject, Paul Simon. I'll have you know we got a negative review on itunes because they heard us talking about Paul Simon in that episode. So we're gonna. We're gonna steer clear. We're gonna steer clear of the Paul Simon stuff today.

[Evan]

From Paul Simon himself.

[Ian]

Exactly.

[Unknown]

Probably.

[Ian]

No, it's Double Acts in Pop.

[Molly Lambert]

An Incomplete Survey by Molly Lambert.

[Ian]

It's from Commercial Type.

[Molly Lambert]

Right.

[Ian]

Just maybe explain what this is, because I didn't even realize kind of what it was until I started reading it. But, you know, for the folks out there, what do we got?

[Evan]

It is a book about music that is also a typography catalog showing off typefaces.

[Unknown]

Basically, to commemorate the anniversary of this.

[Evan]

Company, Commercial Type, which is run by two guys, they asked if I wanted to write a book about.

[Unknown]

Musical duos. Basically.

[Evan]

Another writer who works with them brought me in and suggested me for the project.

[Unknown]

And then, yeah, truly, they said, do.

[Evan]

You want to write a book about duo acts? And you can choose whichever ones you want. And I. And they said, well, design it cool and use it to show off typefaces.

[Unknown]

And I said, well, that sounds great.

[Evan]

I would love to do that.

[Unknown]

And then I did it, and then.

[Evan]

I forgot about it. And then it is out. Now it's coming out.

[Ian]

Beautiful. Available maybe in stores, but certainly online. I'm guessing this is available, like, in a couple cool spots down in LA somewhere.

[Evan]

Yeah, it will be hopefully soon. I just got a box of them.

[Unknown]

Today, so I will at the very.

[Evan]

Least be selling it out of the.

[Unknown]

Back of my trunk.

[Evan]

Like Dennis Woodruff.

[Ian]

Beautiful.

[Evan]

That's LA Legend.

[Unknown]

Who may or may not have died.

[Evan]

Still not sure.

[Ian]

Well, yeah, it's a fantastic survey of double act. I mean, listen, double acts in music. You're speaking my language here. Even though my double act on podcasting is absent today, but it's kind of just running through. Maybe not every single double act in the history of music, but certainly, you know, the big ones. Many of the big ones here, beginning with hall and Oates, Simon and Garfunkel. Again, we're gonna censor that subject today, but the Everlys, the Carpenters, Ike and Tina, Sonny and Cher, tennis, you know, indie pop 2010s era, favorite tennis. And of course, one subject that we're gonna have to talk about here today, and a subject that has kind of appeared on the periphery of our Beach Boys series. So far, but we haven't really dove divvin dived into them and I guess today's as good a day as any.

[Molly Lambert]

Jan and Dean.

[Evan]

Let'S give it up. Give it up, Jan and Dean fans. Jan and Dean Hive activate. Look, I got really obsessed with every single thing I wrote about for this book. I used it as an excuse to.

[Unknown]

Listen through entire discography, start to finish.

[Evan]

The Jokerman special and mindset, they call it the Jan. The.

[Unknown]

The Jan and Dean mindset is crazy.

[Evan]

It's like the. You'll crash your car if you listen to too much Jan and Dean. The stuff their music is about is also what their music makes you feel like doing. This is like kind of what I.

[Unknown]

Wrote about in the book a little.

[Evan]

Bit, but I just. I got really preoccupied with Jan and.

[Unknown]

Dean thinking about how they're like the.

[Evan]

The Beach Boys evil twins, kind of the Beach Boys friends, but also they. They, you know, are like a foil.

[Unknown]

To the Beach Boys in this way.

[Evan]

Because they represent, like what the Beach Boys would be like without Brian Wilson. Basically.

[Ian]

Right.

[Evan]

Sort of the. The frat guy Beach Boys. And they met in high school singing in the bathroom, singing doo wop, which a lot of vocal harmony stuff comes.

[Unknown]

Up throughout this book a lot, too.

[Evan]

A lot of people were in doo wop groups first. And they start.

[Unknown]

They're on the football team.

[Evan]

They're sort of just like life's winners.

[Unknown]

And they're both these like, dude looking guys.

[Ian]

They're like big corn fed, blonde, you know, himbo types.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Like, they're like, what the California sound? Like the stereotype of the California sound.

[Evan]

And truly just like, like the Mike Love Beach Boys kind of like the.

[Unknown]

Beach Boys that are just like surfing.

[Evan]

Skating, partying, being a little, you know, Dayton. Just all the kind of tropes. And I was sort of like, I'm gonna find the.

[Unknown]

What's the hidden thread to Jan and Dean. And they just sort of have sort of an interesting career as like the Shadow Beach Boys.

[Evan]

They have a lot of great songs. Definitely, if you're comparing anyone to the Beach Boys are gonna come up short. But it's like I started making a.

[Unknown]

Compilation of my Jan and Dean selects that I will make available.

[Ian]

No, please.

[Evan]

And like a lot of the groups.

[Unknown]

In this book too.

[Evan]

It's like some of them were sort.

[Unknown]

Of like chasing trends until they got a hit. Jan and Dean are kind of the inverse where they had a bunch of.

[Evan]

Hits and then just like, styles kept changing and they couldn't keep up really. So they kept Kind of like going back to the. Well of the beach stuff, the surf stuff. But just listening through their discography is interesting because it is like early 60s to early 70s, just trying everything that's popular as it becomes popular. So their first album is just like a complete Everly Brothers rip and then they become surf music. And that's like their imperial era.

[Unknown]

And then they're always just sort of.

[Evan]

Like chasing the long tail of Surf City.

[Ian]

Two girls for every boy Two girls for every boy. Words to live by.

[Evan]

But it's like, even though, you know, there is like. They're really funny is what it. What I learned about them. And so they kind of like.

[Unknown]

They never had a hit. They never made Surf City again, basically.

[Molly Lambert]

Well, they did make Surf City.

[Evan]

They did make Surf City again.

[Ian]

They literally kept making it again.

[Evan]

Yeah, they made Folk City, Soul City. It turns out there's several in the City series. Folk City is the one I think I recommended to you.

[Ian]

Yeah, I fucking hate Folk City. I'm sorry.

[Evan]

It's so funny.

[Ian]

I hate it.

[Daryl Dragon]

Oak City, here we go. You know, there's lots of folk songs that I wanna sing. Oak City, here we go. City. Two girls forever.

[Evan]

So there's. It goes Surf City. Surf City, which is about a Surf City, which is, you know, in a way, self explanatory. It is a play, a real play, a real place. Drag City is about drag racing, obviously. And then there's Fun City, which is just kind of a fun city. And they have a whole album.

[Molly Lambert]

So stupid.

[Evan]

It's like they surround the.

[Unknown]

The singles like Drag City, they make.

[Evan]

A whole album that's just them doing other songs about cities. Like, like what.

[Unknown]

What's even on?

[Evan]

Like just.

[Ian]

I'm saying there's this album, there's.

[Molly Lambert]

There's.

[Ian]

I don't know if it's compilation or an original release, but there is something on Spotify, at least, called Surf City.

[Molly Lambert]

And Other Swinging Cities.

[Evan]

That's the one.

[Molly Lambert]

Yeah.

[Evan]

And it's just like.

[Ian]

Yeah, it's Surf City, Memphis City, Manhattan, Philadelphia.

[Evan]

Right.

[Unknown]

So those are all covers.

[Evan]

Those are all covers of like existing R and B songs about places.

[Ian]

But it's like I Left My Heart in San Francisco. Yeah, sure.

[Evan]

Yeah. It's like they have a bunch of albums like that where it's like the.

[Unknown]

Single, the hit single, rounded out with.

[Evan]

Like 10 more covers. And so Folk City, which is Surf City played in a minor key. You gotta. You gotta give it to them. And Folk City is about. It's just Surf City, but it's about the Greenwich Village folk scene. So it's about. Bring your harmonica to the. To Greenwich Village and, you know, meet.

[Ian]

Bob Dylan and you still get two girls for every boy. It's like.

[Evan]

I know it's funny that that is like, it's. But it's two girls for every boy sung in a minor key, which makes it so haunting. It's already like a haunting part of. Of Surf City. But when they do it in folk city and they're like two girls forever, boy, it is. It's so funny.

[Unknown]

You gotta give it. You gotta hand it to them.

[Ian]

You gotta hand something to them.

[Evan]

You gotta give them. You gotta give it up for Jan and Dean a little bit. But, you know, they were.

[Unknown]

They were of their time and then they. After.

[Evan]

After various early 60s crash outs, including.

[Unknown]

One of them got in a real car accident.

[Ian]

A real car accident? Yeah. Jan, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Evan]

After predicting that would happen with Dead Man's Curve. Do you know where Dead Man's Curve is?

[Ian]

Yeah, it's on Sunset. I used to like, take the. And I went to UCLA and I would take the bus down Sunset, like the two. So, you know, the. Fortunately, none of my buses ever crash, but I certainly remember that strip of sunset.

[Evan]

Yeah. It is to this day an incredibly dangerous. Pretty brutal place to be driving. And I do notice, especially around the holidays when LA empties out, people do drag race there.

[Unknown]

Still.

[Ian]

That's cool.

[Unknown]

It is cool.

[Evan]

I always try to maintain a safe distance away from when that's happening. But it like, I will go out cruising when the city's really empty and.

[Unknown]

You can drive across the whole thing.

[Evan]

Really fast, you know?

[Ian]

Yep.

[Unknown]

And you will see people out on like Thanksgiving and Christmas, just racing in the streets, as they say.

[Molly Lambert]

Sure.

[Evan]

So I think that's interesting. Even on doing it just like right.

[Unknown]

On Sunset at Dead Man's Curve, when there's famously a song about how you shouldn't do that.

[Ian]

Well, that's why, you know, that's. Come on, you want the forbidden fruit. That's. You gotta go to Dead Man's Curve if you're gonna drag.

[Evan]

How much.

[Unknown]

How much Jan and Dean did you make it through?

[Ian]

I listened to. I mean, I've listened to Jan and Dean. You know, for those who don't know. Surf City, you know that first big single, that was written by Brian Wilson and he just gave it to Jan and Dean. I think Jan and Dean both have a co. Write on it, but Brian.

[Molly Lambert]

Is the engine behind that song.

[Ian]

He's the mastermind behind it in 1963. So that might as well have been a Beach Boys song. And then, yeah, Jan and Dean end up dining out on that one song for the rest of their fucking lives.

[Evan]

It is a Beach Boys song, but.

[Unknown]

It'S like an, er, Beach Boys song. But it is like something about the.

[Evan]

Way Jan and Dean do it versus.

[Unknown]

How the Beach Boys do it. It's like you can truly. You can tell the Beach Boys can't surf. Jan and Dean really seem like they.

[Evan]

Are like the bros, just.

[Unknown]

They are the guys.

[Ian]

Yeah, they're like Biff or something, you know.

[Evan]

Yeah, but they're like the Biffs that.

[Unknown]

Beach Boy songs are kind of about. But it's like very obvious that Brian.

[Evan]

Wilson is like, not that guy.

[Molly Lambert]

That's the whole thing about the Beach.

[Ian]

Boys is that, like, they're kind of like an island of misfit toys, you.

[Molly Lambert]

Know, Brian is the brilliant, genius, sensitive.

[Ian]

You know, soul in the middle of the group.

[Molly Lambert]

But even everyone else around them, around him in the group, with the exception.

[Ian]

Of Dennis, who is just, you know, dominated by his demons for most of his life. As an artist at least. You know, Mike is a fucking weird guy. Carl is a pudgy little, you know, roly, poly kid. Al Jardine is like a straight laced, like, you know, army type. They're all kind of just like weird guys that happen, just so happen to fall ass backwards into being like, you know, one of the great American rock groups.

[Molly Lambert]

Jan and Dean seem like they were.

[Ian]

Like, you know, there's like Aryans or something. Like they've been bred specifically for this. They're just hateable for some reason.

[Unknown]

Ironically, there was a guy before, I believe, Dean.

[Evan]

There was. Originally it was like Jan and Arnold.

[Molly Lambert]

It's not quite as catchy.

[Ian]

Jan and Arnold.

[Evan]

And Arnold, like, left to go become.

[Unknown]

A rocket scientist or something. And so then they recruited Dean. And there was a period where they had girlfriends and the girlfriends had their own group that was like a female.

[Evan]

Answer group to Jan and Dean, as you do and.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but they're a little bit cursed.

[Evan]

They made Dead Man's Curve. They made that song that Pearl Jam covers.

[Ian]

They made Little Old Lady From Pasadena, which the Beach Boys also covered and which I encountered in an unexpected place.

[Molly Lambert]

On Carnival of Sound, which you told.

[Ian]

Me to listen to, which was Jan's.

[Molly Lambert]

Sort of never released until recently.

[Ian]

I think it got released in the last 10 years or something. His sort of his Jan and Dean version of Pet Sounds supposed to be this big artistic leap forward, reimagining the concept of what a Jan and Dean record. Is. And it's a fun listen. And I was listening to it.

[Molly Lambert]

Laurel and Hardy.

[Ian]

Preposterous song. That was fun. But in the middle of it, there's just a song called Tijuana. And then Tijuana is just the little old lady from Pasadena. Except it's the little old lady from Tijuana. I got so mad listening.

[Unknown]

It's about how she smokes marijuana. Much like folk City.

[Evan]

Updated.

[Unknown]

Surf City. They love to do a countercultural redo of one of their own songs.

[Daryl Dragon]

It's the little old lady from Tijuana. Oh.

[Evan]

I thought it was so funny. I just think it's definitely like.

[Unknown]

It didn't come out.

[Evan]

It was.

[Unknown]

They had two albums get shelved.

[Evan]

The first one is all songs about rain.

[Unknown]

And it's like Jan and Dean on a rainy day.

[Evan]

Sure.

[Ian]

Sort of the opposite of a Surf city day.

[Molly Lambert]

You know, a rainy day. Rain city.

[Evan]

That album's good too, because that's like.

[Unknown]

They're trying to get into sunshine pop.

[Ian]

Bubblegum, like late 60s type of sound.

[Evan]

Late 60s type of stuff.

[Unknown]

And it makes total sense for them because they're already so kitschy.

[Evan]

It's like they're doing kind of.

[Unknown]

They do Yellow Balloon and then just.

[Evan]

A bunch of sort of like soft bubblegum songs.

[Unknown]

But that album got shelved as well, which is why then they became disenchanted.

[Evan]

One of them became a album art.

[Unknown]

Artist.

[Ian]

Notable and did the. Among other things I think you mentioned in the book.

[Molly Lambert]

Dean did the album art for Nilsson, Singh's Newman.

[Ian]

You know, great little painting.

[Evan]

I like them also as just like prototypical LA guys living through the 60s who start out very clean cut and.

[Unknown]

End up weird long hairs making.

[Evan]

Trying to make psychedelic music. I think there's some legitimately good songs on Carnival of Sound. It definitely doesn't live up to the.

[Unknown]

Promise of loft psychedelic Jan and Dean album.

[Ian]

It's not a. It's not. It's not. It's not exactly in the same league as Pet Sound.

[Evan]

No, it's definitely. It's its own thing. But I did also think there's like the song that's like Love and hate, where it's like, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. And I was like, wow, the Manson years. Dan and Dean.

[Unknown]

It was.

[Evan]

If I was just like, you can. You can sense the.

[Ian]

The bad vibes.

[Evan]

Yeah, you can sense the bad vibes.

[Unknown]

I did love.

[Evan]

I do love the song about Mulholland, though. I think is a beautiful, wonderful car song. I just also.

[Unknown]

I have a soft spot for car songs where do you stand?

[Ian]

I like car songs, you know, to the extent that they are, you know, like part of something greater, you know, or, you know, like Little Deuce Coupe, you know, kind of fits into the Beach Boys early stuff. I Get around is maybe the like, canonical exam. Like, that's a car song. That's like the Mona Lisa of car songs. But like, if you make the whole band out of car songs, basically, like.

[Evan]

Well, that's what you find out.

[Ian]

Yeah, like there's not, you know, there's no actual, like, heart or.

[Evan]

No, there's no depth. That's how you find out. There's no depth to it. It's purely surface level.

[Unknown]

It is kind of all the things.

[Evan]

People say about the California sound and these kind of songs that are just like burnished in the studio to be waxy and vibrant.

[Unknown]

And you can tell that there's not like a huge secret artistry to Jan and Dean.

[Ian]

Yes, exactly.

[Molly Lambert]

It's like totally pleasurable and enjoy.

[Ian]

And like, I kind of enjoy them as sort of weird side characters in this grand opera of Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys. And, you know, certainly some catchy songs. And they're, you know, in the Tammy show, you know, they're the MCs of that movie. They're cute. They're doing little skateboard tricks.

[Unknown]

Ride the Wild Surf is a good movie, if you like surf movies.

[Evan]

Are they in that and Beach Party movies?

[Unknown]

Yeah, they did the soundtrack for that.

[Evan]

They also have an entire album that's.

[Unknown]

Just songs about Batman and skits.

[Evan]

I don't know if you made it.

[Ian]

This actually sounds pretty good. I have not got that.

[Evan]

You might like. Actually.

[Unknown]

It is also like some of the.

[Evan]

Songs you're like, yeah, it's like a.

[Unknown]

Beach Boys song about Robin, the Boy Wonder.

[Evan]

This feels very like the late 60s are approaching.

[Ian]

Geez.

[Molly Lambert]

Jan and Dean meet Batman.

[Ian]

Okay, I gotta throw this on when we wrap up here.

[Evan]

This is, yeah, just a warning. It's half skits, but the skits are pretty funny.

[Ian]

Those are the best parts.

[Evan]

The skits are like Surf City Gotham. Like.

[Unknown]

This episode of Jokerman Podcast is presented by Distrokid. Over a million artists rely on Distrokid to distribute their music and get it into all of the places it needs to go. Your Spotify's, your Apple Musics, your YouTubes, your TikToks, your titles, your Instagrams, and any other streaming service of note. Distrokid makes music distribution fun and easy, with unlimited uploads and artists keeping 100%.

[Molly Lambert]

That's right.

[Unknown]

100, all of them folks of their royalties and earnings. Distrokid comes with tons of great features, including Mixia, which allows Distrokid users to put the finishing touches on their tracks in just minutes, getting a customizable and polished end result that anyone can feel confident in before sharing it with the world. The Distrokid app is available now on iOS and Android, so go to the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store to download it today.

[Evan]

It's deeply weird. That was actually the last one I listened to and I was like, you.

[Unknown]

Know what, Jan and Dean, you're okay.

[Ian]

Like, this is the thing, I think with them and with other bands that kind of ran in this scene. Like, eventually the Beach Boys became the Beach Boys because, you know, because Brian Wilson decided, no, I'm making fucking art. Not just like Pablum to sell records and get.

[Molly Lambert]

Yeah.

[Evan]

But then also, like, then if you.

[Unknown]

Like, you and I both, not together.

[Evan]

But in separate California cities.

[Unknown]

Saw the Mike Love Beach Boy experience.

[Evan]

Sure did.

[Ian]

Sure did.

[Evan]

And I have been seeing a lot of sort of like half the Band is Dead type reunion acts.

[Ian]

Those are the best types.

[Unknown]

The Beach Boys was litter. And usually they're like, they hire a.

[Evan]

Bunch of ringers to make it, you know, perfectly replicate the sound of an incredible band's catalog. And it's like, interesting in its own, like, good, great in its own right.

[Unknown]

The Beach Boys, my club, Beach Boys.

[Evan]

Was the first time I was like, this sucks. This sounds like an amateur Beach Boys cover band. And like a Beach Boys cover band.

[Unknown]

That you or I would know would probably be better.

[Evan]

Like, these are this. I was like, this is like dishonoring the Beach Boys. Like, I was, you know, what are they gonna do for Good Vibrations?

[Unknown]

Like, they play just a backing track.

[Ian]

It's a very low rent operation.

[Evan]

It's really half assed. Yeah, it made me mad. I was like, this is. You're dishonoring the spirit of Pet Sounds.

[Ian]

But that's why, you know, like, someone like Bron, like, anyone involved. I mean, the Beach Boys as it exists today, it's Mike Love and Bruce Johnston and Mike Love's son and a bunch of, you know, NPC created characters behind him. Like, anyone who is actually part of the Beach Boys who has any sort of artistic ambition, I'm thinking, you know, Brian, Al, Blondie, Chaplin, they've been doing their own thing, separate and doing it. Brian, I think, is basically done playing shows at this point due to his condition. But up until relatively recently, honoring the legacy as opposed to just cashing a check off of it.

[Evan]

That's cause he cares about music and love. Just cares about money.

[Unknown]

Jan and Dean care about music. They're just not.

[Ian]

They're just not very good at it.

[Evan]

I think they're just not incredible at it.

[Unknown]

They wrote some great songs.

[Evan]

It's more than most people could ever ask for in their wildest dreams. They ended up being kind of a.

[Unknown]

Nostalgia act of themselves and returning to.

[Evan]

The kind of cars and surf.

[Unknown]

Well, eternally.

[Evan]

But look, that'll make you the honorary.

[Unknown]

Mayor of Orange County.

[Evan]

So.

[Ian]

Sure, there are. You know, listen, there are worse outcomes in this life than being, you know, sort of a kitschy but very popular and successful and well known novelty music act from the 60s. Oh.

[Evan]

My dream at this point is to write a holiday song and make a bazillion dollars. I also got really upset.

[Ian]

Christmas City.

[Evan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ian]

Hanukkah City.

[Evan]

It's easy. I got really into not a duo, but I was really obsessed with Bobby Boris Pickett and the Monster Mash this year.

[Ian]

Okay.

[Molly Lambert]

Love the Monster Mash.

[Unknown]

Where I learned that the Monster Mash.

[Evan]

Is a mashed potato response record and.

[Unknown]

Learned how to do.

[Molly Lambert]

Wow. I didn't know that.

[Evan]

Yeah, right. And it's. It's supposed to be mocking the popularity of dance trends, but instead.

[Ian]

Right.

[Molly Lambert]

Do the Mashed Potato.

[Ian]

I'm a. Yeah.

[Molly Lambert]

Wow.

[Ian]

I did not make it.

[Unknown]

Monster Mashed Potato.

[Ian]

Sure.

[Evan]

And it's that you do the Mashed Potato, which I learned how to do. It's very hard.

[Unknown]

And you do Frankenstein arms with the.

[Evan]

Mashed potato while you do the mashed potato. But they do.

[Unknown]

He also has like. There's a Christmas version of the Monster.

[Evan]

Mash called Monsters Holiday that is like the drag city to Surf City.

[Unknown]

It's just Monsters.

[Evan]

Monster Mash again. But they. It's just about the monsters at Christmas. So it's like Dracula put up ornaments on the tree.

[Ian]

This is gonna be next Jokerman series. It's just monster Mesh.

[Unknown]

It made me want to read. He did it like a hundred times. There's a rap. There's a Monster Mash rap. He also just dined out on that till he died.

[Evan]

And he wrote a book that seems crazy, but I didn't buy because it cost like $200 and is out of print. But the reviews on Amazon are like, not like, pretty interesting story.

[Unknown]

Too much stuff about hanging out with Harry Dean Stanton and Jack Nicholson.

[Molly Lambert]

Whoa.

[Ian]

I was like, okay, that actually sounds. That sounds like sick shit right there.

[Unknown]

Just like another guy where it's like he wrote the monster mash.

[Evan]

And then he just kind of kicked.

[Unknown]

Around for another few decades. He probably hung out with Jan and Dean. Can't imagine the circles are that big.

[Evan]

Of guys writing good novelty songs. But New dream.

[Ian]

Well, maybe one day.

[Molly Lambert]

Jan and Dean.

[Ian]

You know, one star for Jan and Dean in general. I'm glad that they were around. That's fair. You know, I'm glad that you're a little bit more generous. I just, like, I can't. Soul City just killed. I killed me. Or Folk City.

[Evan]

Folk City is so funny that that's.

[Unknown]

What made me turn.

[Evan]

I was like, they're funny. They know it's a goof and they're kind of goofing. You know, they have that kind of.

[Unknown]

Core California lack of self seriousness that.

[Evan]

I love that you see in a.

[Unknown]

Fella like Randy as well.

[Evan]

Just like, they can't.

[Unknown]

They're just so unpretentious.

[Evan]

Their lot in life is to sing.

[Unknown]

The songs about cars that go fast.

[Evan]

And they're very satisfied.

[Ian]

Absolutely. And, you know, like I said, God bless him. God bless them for making the most out of. Out of the, like, the fucking straight flush hand of aces that they were dealt by life. We all should be so lucky.

[Daryl Dragon]

I don't know who he is behind that man, but we need. And we need him now. He is known as Bruce Wayne by day. Wealthy socialite but incognito in dress. He finds crime by night. Yeah, It's Batman and Robin. Boy Wonder at his side. Hey now. Riddler, Penguin, Joker, better go. We need the Batman. We need the Batman.

[Evan]

Yeah. Who else stood out to you in the book other than.

[Ian]

I mean, Hallow Notes, I think, is the first. Is the first one that you really dive into here and is kind of the biggest.

[Molly Lambert]

One of the deepest investigations you pursue.

[Ian]

And I don't think I knew the whole saga or drama between. I'm aware of hollow notes as like, my wife loves rich girl. But it's a more sordid tale between the two of them. At least when it comes to more recent years.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Right.

[Evan]

When I was getting asked to write.

[Unknown]

This book, I said, can I write.

[Evan]

About the Hallow Notes breakup?

[Unknown]

Because it was just getting announced.

[Evan]

And I was personally like, gotta find out what's going on with the hall of Notes breakup.

[Unknown]

I had my suspicions. My suspicions were that it was instigated.

[Evan]

By Daryl hall, who seemed like a diva and.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And it just sent me on a.

[Evan]

Journey of like, I'm going to learn.

[Unknown]

Everything about hall and Oates now.

[Evan]

That sounds fun. I'd like, to learn everything about them. I don't know that much about them.

[Unknown]

Except that they have 100 great songs.

[Evan]

So I found out.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's interesting. They are so deeply Philadelphian. And so I was also just like, wow.

[Evan]

The whole, like, Philadelphia part of the record industry is such a. Its own story. That's interesting stuff. Outside of New York and LA and.

[Ian]

Nashville, they're a good example of, like, you know, the type of act. Like, the yacht rock documentary touches on a lot of this too. You know, like, you know, Christopher Cross or Toto, you know, these. These kind of acts that, like, I know just kind of on a very surface, like, I'm aware of the name. I'm kind of generally aware of what they look like.

[Molly Lambert]

I'm aware of the biggest hits.

[Ian]

But, like, I have. I have zero kind of understanding or comprehension of really, like, any of their, you know, records or kind of where they fit into the bigger picture, the bigger constellation of, you know, kind of the world. I didn't know that there were, like, not hollow notes, Toto. I didn't know there were more than one Porcaro. I didn't know there was another Porcaro besides Jeff. There's three of them.

[Evan]

Oh, yeah.

[Ian]

Like, there's. And what's interesting to me about that is, like, they're kind of all of these acts, and Holland Oaks is a great example of it is, you know, they're not.

[Molly Lambert]

They've certainly been reclaimed.

[Ian]

You know, I think you make a point in writing this, like, seeing hollow notes at the Hollywood bowl, you know, there's a whole, you know, crowd of millennials done up in their little, like, hollow notes, 80s, you know, kitschy outfits or whatever, and people can kind enjoy it for what it is. Even though at the time, obviously, like, the punk rockers and the serious rock artists, you know, would have looked down on them, you know, as practitioners of rockism or whatever. But, you know, so they've been reclaimed.

[Molly Lambert]

And yet at the same time, like.

[Ian]

There is still something kind of like.

[Molly Lambert]

Disposable or declassee about them.

[Evan]

Even today, people are afraid of things.

[Unknown]

That are too easy to digest.

[Ian]

And maybe that's what it is.

[Evan]

It's interesting to me because I do feel like. Like this has never been my purview.

[Unknown]

Because I've always been into sort of.

[Evan]

Like peak studio era, really. Things beat that are burnished to like, a perfect shine, studio musician type stuff. Maybe it is just like an la.

[Unknown]

California thing that you don't.

[Evan]

But it is, like, I'll encounter people.

[Unknown]

Who have These kinds of, like, ideas.

[Evan]

About things being punk or not, which, to me, I'm always like, uh, so Gen X? Like, shut up.

[Ian]

It's a very outmoded way of evaluating the world.

[Evan]

Or just. It's like, it would. I. I would never evaluate anything like that. And I think even the people who.

[Unknown]

Pretended to dislike that type of music in the 90s, like Steve Albini or.

[Evan]

Whoever, you know, they were doing it.

[Unknown]

To try and get a rise out.

[Evan]

Of boomers by being like, oh, your.

[Unknown]

Sacred cows mean nothing to me.

[Ian]

Sure.

[Evan]

But now it just seems kind of, like, reactionary if you're like, oh, I.

[Unknown]

Don'T like Steely Dan.

[Evan]

It, like, sounds too tight and good.

[Unknown]

Like, that's not a complaint about music.

[Evan]

Like, you can complain that something is, like, boring. But I. I think, like, the knock on Steely Dan is always like, oh, it's too complicated. And I feel like people take that.

[Unknown]

For granted about hall and Oates, too. It's like their whole thing is that.

[Evan]

They'Re studio musician guys who love jazz.

[Unknown]

And love doo wop and love R.

[Evan]

And B, and they're trying to make.

[Unknown]

Philadelphia R and B.

[Evan]

Which is truly like its own specific world that I feel like kind of doesn't. Doesn't get talked about that much because it's. Because it's Philadelphia.

[Unknown]

And they are the main ambassadors of this sound to the world in the.

[Evan]

Last 50 years or whatever.

[Molly Lambert]

Yeah, ever.

[Evan]

And sort of the only people doing their thing. But it's like, because they were doing such a specific thing, they were not.

[Unknown]

Very successful right away. I think that's what surprised me was.

[Evan]

Like, they have so many hits, you would have just assumed that they came out of the gate just, like, running. But they, like a lot of the people in this duo's book, they really.

[Unknown]

Tried a lot of things before finding.

[Evan]

The thing that became their thing.

[Ian]

Cracked it for them. Yeah. I've always only really ever known them as this world bestriding colossus that is just like a machine of pop hits. I had no idea that, you know.

[Molly Lambert]

They had struggled to the extent that.

[Ian]

They had, you know, and kind of came out of a geographically located scene. You know, the Philadelphia aspect, like, it's like a lot of this music, I think, and this is what's interesting, I think, about the book in general, is like, a lot of. A lot of the book or a lot of the artists you focus on are artists that, like, I at least wouldn't necessarily think that there's a ton there to like, interrogate or even, you know, Kind of, you know, sink your teeth into so much. And that, you know, probably says as much about me as it does about anything, but, you know, the, like, backup history and the kind of struggles that all of these artists went through, even if they never really amounted to, you know, hollow notes level success. Peaches and Herb Friends.

[Molly Lambert]

The eight versions of Peaches made up.

[Ian]

Of seven different women. It's like, you know, there's just some.

[Molly Lambert]

Crazy stories out there.

[Evan]

There.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Evan]

And.

[Unknown]

And Phil Spector appears a number of times.

[Ian]

Oh, he certainly does.

[Evan]

Death, you know, of the music industry. It really makes you think about just.

[Unknown]

Like, what a small world the music industry kind of is, that a lot.

[Evan]

Of these people just, like, popped up over and over again until they figured out something that worked for them. And I really.

[Unknown]

I. I truly just made the list of who I was writing about based on what seemed interesting to me, you.

[Evan]

Know, like the commercial type. It suggested a couple things and said, you know, what? We're interested in, like, the Pet Shop Boys because there's some British people involved. And I was like, that sounds interesting.

[Unknown]

I don't know anything about the Pet.

[Evan]

Shop Boys except the songs, you know. And so finding out that West End.

[Unknown]

Girls, their first big hit, was really written as a response song to Grandmaster.

[Evan]

Flashes, the message I thought that was. I couldn't stop telling people as though they'd be interested.

[Ian]

How about Wright said Fred, the I'm too sexy guys that, like, began as a. I think, what a Manchester, like Factory Records, like, postpunk act wild.

[Evan]

Like, a lot of stuff like that, where it's just like, you know, someone.

[Unknown]

Who'D been kicking around forever, working behind the scenes, working as session guys.

[Evan]

It's also very coincidental this book is.

[Unknown]

Coming out at the same time that.

[Evan]

The yacht Rock documentary on HBO came out.

[Unknown]

That I'm talking head in a little.

[Evan]

Bit because I was like, wow, is.

[Unknown]

My subconscious just filled with, like, yacht rock?

[Evan]

Apparently, yeah.

[Ian]

Kenny Longins makes another appearance here.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Evan]

Loggins in Messina.

[Unknown]

Finding out Kenny Loggins is so tall. Really pictured him as a little guy.

[Ian]

Just had, you see, he's tall in.

[Molly Lambert]

The yacht rock dunk.

[Ian]

You see, he's, you know, he's a.

[Molly Lambert]

Gangly type of fellow.

[Unknown]

If I had ever seen a picture of him, except on the COVID of one of his records, I would have known that.

[Evan]

But truly, if you look at all.

[Unknown]

The records, he's always crouching down behind.

[Evan]

Messina, sometimes on a boat. So they're like, both.

[Unknown]

He's, like, behind him a little bit.

[Evan]

Really nice of him. But, yeah, I think the thing about.

[Unknown]

Duos, too, is, like, you know, you as a podcaster know this.

[Evan]

It's like, it's like being in a. In an artistic partnership with somebody. It's like, it's a partnership, you know, and being in a band is like being in a poly relationship where everybody.

[Unknown]

Has to talk about their feelings all.

[Evan]

The time, you know, but it is like in a.

[Unknown]

In a duo as well.

[Evan]

It's like.

[Ian]

It's like a relationship. It's literally like a, you know, romantic relationship. Not in that you're, you know, hugging and kissing, but like a lot of the same dynamics existing.

[Unknown]

Hall and Oates are so associated with each other. Just the idea that they could break up made me be like, well, how did they meet?

[Evan]

You know, how did they meet and.

[Unknown]

Why are they breaking up now? If you can tolerate working with somebody for, like, 53 years, which is, I think, how long they did last as a group together. They met in College. Why after 53 years, would you be like, I can't do this anymore.

[Evan]

But also sort of like, at that.

[Unknown]

Point, it's like your names are going.

[Evan]

To be intertwined forever.

[Ian]

Yeah, forever. Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, the duo aspect, that's a great point. Like, just in general, you know, musically, I think this point is highlighted again and again with the stories that you tell. And I have seen this firsthand on a million times lower scale than anyone that you write about here. But just, like, to the extent that there has been any success on Jokerman, it's not like Evan and I decided one day, like, you know, let's enter into this agreement with the plan to, you know, make this a successful, you know, financially rewarding enterprise that's going to.

[Molly Lambert]

Extend for however many years.

[Ian]

Like, it literally just started because it was Covid and we were bored and we wanted to talk about Bob Dylan and stuff. And then eventually, over time, it kind of like, you know, it does transform from this initial, like, pure naive thing into something great where, like, there's just. There's other shit that you weren't thinking.

[Molly Lambert]

About at the beginning.

[Ian]

You didn't know what you were getting into, you know.

[Evan]

Right. For sure. You weren't thinking.

[Unknown]

Now we're dependent on each other in.

[Ian]

A way, and you just got to.

[Molly Lambert]

Figure that dynamic out on the fly.

[Ian]

And it can be, you know, it can be a challenge. There's no question.

[Evan]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then you both became huge divas.

[Evan]

And demanded just crazy writers everywhere you went. That's right.

[Ian]

But I mean, I see that, you know, I completely Understand for someone like Colin Oates and. Or, you know, we're not gonna talk about it.

[Molly Lambert]

Simon Garfunkel, but you see this dynamic.

[Ian]

With the two of them as well. Like, the desire to eventually kind of strike out on your own and make your own, you know, kind of just.

[Evan]

Make your own music.

[Ian]

Exactly. And, you know, glory in all of the success yourself.

[Unknown]

Going into those partnerships in the first.

[Evan]

Place, it's often that one person is.

[Unknown]

The leader and the other person is.

[Evan]

A little bit more the follower. And one person is often the main.

[Unknown]

Songwriter, and the other person relies on that person. But it is also. Once you've entered into the contract of, you know, artistic partnership together, then you're gonna have to get out of it if you ever want to leave.

[Evan]

And hall and Oates, unlike Simon and.

[Unknown]

Garfunkel, where Paul Simon wrote all the.

[Evan]

Songs, mainly hall and Oates wrote every single song together. So they really are just, like, bound together by the music. And you could tell.

[Unknown]

You could always tell that Daryl hall.

[Evan]

Is more interested in being seen as, like, a genius. And he also was like a sophomore to John Oates, freshman at the college.

[Unknown]

Where they met in Philadelphia. So you can see that that was the dynamic from the beginning.

[Evan]

Was like elder classman who takes you.

[Unknown]

Under his wing because you both like doo wop music.

[Evan]

And that hall sort of. Would he want. He wanted.

[Unknown]

It seemed like he hated oats. When I saw them at the Hollywood.

[Evan]

Bowl, it seemed like he was exasperated by oats in some way.

[Unknown]

And Oats seemed very.

[Evan]

Just, like, happy to be there. Not annoyed that the crowd is, like, having fun. Sort of. Not taking them seriously.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Being taken them as a joke.

[Evan]

Hall is very much like, no, like, we're a. We're a serious band.

[Ian]

I demand to be taken seriously.

[Unknown]

But it's like, you do have to take them seriously.

[Evan]

If anything, I think maybe they also.

[Unknown]

Were undermined by how good at being on mtv.

[Evan]

They were like, that's a thing that.

[Unknown]

Comes up in the yacht rock documentary, is that some of these acts could.

[Evan]

Make the transition to the music videos and others couldn't. Although they use a crazy example of.

[Unknown]

How Genesis was able to transition.

[Evan]

Transition to music video, which is like the most unlikely thing that you saw all the time on MTV was Phil Collins. Genesis. Yes.

[Ian]

The brilliant, beautiful human specimen, physical specimen that is Phil Collins.

[Evan]

Honestly, he's good.

[Unknown]

He's very charismatic on screen.

[Evan]

It's really not about just what you look like. It's like, you gotta. He's funny. Coming. Coming out as a Phil Collins Stan Here.

[Ian]

Fair enough.

[Evan]

But yeah, the Hollow Notes videos, they were very, like, kind. They had those kind of Flock of Seagulls hairdos at points. They're kind of doing that 80s 50s doo wop revival thing that famously Billy.

[Unknown]

Joel does on my least favorite Billy.

[Evan]

Joel album, River of Dreams.

[Molly Lambert]

Ooh, least favorite. Wow.

[Ian]

All right, I'm gonna put a pin in that conversation.

[Evan]

His false.

[Ian]

Might need to have a conversation about that in the future.

[Evan]

Yeah, sorry. Now I'm the safe from the Marc safe from Paul Simon fan. Billy Joel fans coming for you. Although love to throw my favorite fun fact that I always say on Jokerman about how Piano man is about LA's Koreatown.

[Ian]

That's right.

[Molly Lambert]

Right there on.

[Ian]

Where was the bar? Was it on 6th Street, I think, right?

[Evan]

Yeah, I believe so.

[Ian]

6Th street, we love it.

[Evan]

We love it. So, yeah, Daryl hall, he has a.

[Unknown]

Show called Live from Darryl's House where.

[Evan]

He does a lot of. But I just feel like he didn't.

[Unknown]

Have to insist so hard.

[Evan]

It's like, very clear that Hollow Notes are a legendary act, especially at this point.

[Molly Lambert]

Yeah.

[Ian]

I mean, and that dynamic, to me, I totally understand the desire to be like, no, we're serious artists. People should really understand how talented and kind of generationally important and influential we are and have been all throughout time. Completely understand that mindset. But at the same time, especially at this point when these guys gotta be in their 60s, if not seven, just take the dub at this point, man. You're cashing checks, you've got tens of thousands of people singing along at your feet. Just chill out and be happy with what you got.

[Evan]

I mean, that's how I would feel.

[Unknown]

But if you have that attitude, that.

[Evan]

Won'T spur you to write. Sarah, smile.

[Ian]

I guess that's true.

[Unknown]

You gotta be reaching beyond your limitations.

[Evan]

I do also mention in the book how I famously thought that Hollow Notes.

[Unknown]

Were like a domestic partnership the first few times I saw them in music.

[Evan]

Videos, because they just seem like they.

[Unknown]

Are in love kind of. I mean, they're singing so closely together. They have a video for Jingle Bell Rock where one of them comes over to the other's house for Christmas.

[Evan]

But you'll see. It really seems like it's like a.

[Unknown]

Burton Ernie situation where you're, like, too young to understand people having different sexualities, but you're like. Like, those guys are best friends and they live together in a house and.

[Evan]

Share a bed and write songs together, you know? Are you pulling up Jingle Bell Rock?

[Ian]

I sure am. I'm watching. I've Never seen this before. But, boy, they're looking pretty nice in.

[Molly Lambert]

Their outfits, at least.

[Ian]

But that's.

[Unknown]

They're very. They look beautiful.

[Evan]

It's a beautiful Christmas.

[Ian]

There they are.

[Molly Lambert]

Boy.

[Ian]

Yeah, yeah. Which I honestly can't tell, like, which one is the mustache one.

[Unknown]

Daryl hall is the blonde, and John.

[Evan]

Oates is the mustachioed one.

[Ian]

John Oates is the mustachioed one. Okay, got it. Yeah. Because he's got sort of a, you know, like, there's like a Freddie Mercury.

[Molly Lambert]

Light kind of feeling to him.

[Evan]

Well, he's also sort of.

[Unknown]

He's also Middle Eastern in background, which.

[Evan]

Was the thing I learned from. But in that way where you just might assume somebody is Italian if they're.

[Ian]

Kind of racially ambiguous. Exactly. Like, is he Spanish?

[Molly Lambert]

Is he Italian?

[Evan]

But that's part of what sort made them seem like they were like this. Like a visual. They just seemed like a couple visually to me.

[Ian]

Yeah, no, I totally see it.

[Evan]

Bert and Ernie.

[Unknown]

But by all accounts, Oates seems like.

[Evan]

A very chill guy. He just wants to cash in and, you know, keep touring forever.

[Unknown]

They both are touring separately now.

[Ian]

Boy, how do you do that? Just haul oats?

[Evan]

I mean, I get strong Lindsey Buckingham energy from Daryl.

[Ian]

Well, I see what you mean. The difference there. And I say this with virtually no understanding of the hollow notes oeuvre in general. Certainly, compared, to my knowledge, Lindsey Buckingham. But that, again, Lindsey Buckingham actually is a genius, and he's a wacko.

[Unknown]

I think Daryl hall is a genius, too. I would put Daryl hall on the.

[Evan]

Same level as Lindsey Buckingham.

[Ian]

I don't know enough about Daryl hall to say that you're wrong.

[Evan]

No, I think they are. Definitely. They have both written, I think the best hollow notes songs go pound for pound with Fleetwood Mac and Holiday. Something like Holiday Road. I do think it's interesting that when people want to be in collaboration with.

[Unknown]

Other people, but are, like, incapable of.

[Evan]

Collaborating because they're such egomaniacs. I got really obsessed for a while.

[Unknown]

With the backing vocals on Holiday Road because I thought it sounded like Christine McVie.

[Evan]

And then research revealed that it's all Lindsey Buckingham multitracked.

[Unknown]

But he 100% tuned himself to sound like the other members of Fleetwood Max.

[Evan]

Which I was like, wow, that psycho. Like, what a psycho. But, like, of course, he's like. He's like, I need this. Like, I need these other people for.

[Unknown]

The sound that I have in my mind.

[Evan]

But I can't work with them because.

[Unknown]

One of them's my ex girlfriend, and.

[Evan]

The others, I've, like, pissed off too much.

[Unknown]

So I'll replicate them in a lab using my own voice.

[Molly Lambert]

He's the man.

[Ian]

He's the man.

[Daryl Dragon]

I found.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Evan]

I mean, I also think it's kind of funny when a man is a diva in that way.

[Ian]

Oh, absolutely.

[Evan]

I do think Daryl hall could just get out of his own way, though, and take his flowers, man. Like, you've been.

[Unknown]

Everybody knows you're cool.

[Ian]

Take the dub.

[Evan]

They get sampled all the time. It's hollow notes, you know, Hollow notes will outlive the feud and they will be known as hollow notes.

[Molly Lambert]

Right.

[Ian]

And whether he likes it or not, whether either of them like it or not, like, they are always going to be known as hollow notes, you know, there's no opportunity for Daryl hall to be known individually as the artist Daryl hall, you know, without anyone coming to that knowledge. With the. The experience of hall of notes, his.

[Evan]

Insistence that he be considered on his own terms is like, it's.

[Unknown]

It's.

[Evan]

We're past that.

[Ian]

And that's what I ship sail, brother.

[Unknown]

That's what I think. A lot of the duos, it's like.

[Evan]

Some of them break up and then get back together. Some of them never really have any.

[Unknown]

Issues and are just work well together their whole lives.

[Evan]

Often those people are also related as brothers or something.

[Unknown]

Like the Eberly brothers.

[Evan]

Don't fight.

[Ian]

This is where.

[Molly Lambert]

On that note, this is where Steely.

[Ian]

Dan, who we've spoken about quite a bit on this program, so we don't need to go too in depth there at this point. But I do actually think, especially in this context, the way that Donald and Walter kind of figured out how to work together as a functional duo after obviously breaking up in just kind of the darkest circumstances possible. You know, on the Gaucho era, when, like, Walter's girlfriend had just died from.

[Molly Lambert]

An overdose and he was completely strung.

[Ian]

Out, and Donald Fagan was just like, at the end of his fucking rope, making records on a computer the size of a closet and kind of just going away, giving each other the space that they need for like 10, 12 years, really. But then obviously the kind of the second act of Steely Dam, beginning in the mid-90s and then on up until just a couple years ago when Walt her past, like, that's really. That's great. To me, that's the ideal set of circumstances.

[Unknown]

I found that kind of heartening, too. It is like a lot of these.

[Evan]

People, because they had worked together so.

[Unknown]

Closely, and then sometimes it became just.

[Evan]

Almost like too much closeness for people, especially just.

[Unknown]

You're spending all of your time with this person, essentially.

[Ian]

Right.

[Unknown]

But a lot of them, it's like they end up being friends or they.

[Evan]

End up reforming the band. It's. It's just. It's a.

[Unknown]

It gave me hope in a weird way, for sure. It's sort of about, like, the long.

[Evan]

Arcs of people's lives and of people's.

[Unknown]

Artistic careers and how they go through.

[Evan]

These phases of trying to become successful.

[Unknown]

In some circumstances, getting successful or very.

[Evan]

Super successful, and then that. That causes the strain. And then with time, being able to sort of reflect back on the legacy.

[Unknown]

Of the thing they did.

[Evan]

That's like Loggins and Messina is one, where they kind of are two in.

[Unknown]

Their own ways at the time, but.

[Evan]

End up kind of being like, oh, that was. We should have just appreciated that we had an insanely successful group. Right?

[Ian]

It was great what they had. You know, whether or not it was what either of them, like, totally wanted, 100%, like, it was still fucking amazing. And, you know.

[Evan]

Yeah, you see it. I.

[Unknown]

You see it a lot with stuff.

[Evan]

That'S about, like, comedy duos breaking up, too. You know, there's like.

[Unknown]

Like, the Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin.

[Evan]

Breakup was very contentious, but it is just like this idea that there's, like.

[Unknown]

Another person who you sort of need.

[Evan]

In order to exist. And then, you know, I think mostly you hear stuff about it in romantic context. But so just to think about it.

[Unknown]

In a friendship context, I thought was fun.

[Evan]

Fun for me, and that's what's important.

[Ian]

Absolutely. One last one that I wanted to make sure that we hit. And this is more of the romantic context, but this is a bit character who's been orbiting around the Beach Boys universe kind of on the episodes we've.

[Molly Lambert]

Done recently as we move into the 70s.

[Ian]

And we're going to spend some more time talking about Daryl Dragon, better known as the Captain, and Tenille. You want to just give us a quick shot of what's going on between the two of them?

[Unknown]

Sure. Well, turns out Tenille, Tony Tenille, was the original Beach Girl, as she called herself, the only woman to ever be.

[Evan]

Featured in the Beach Boys touring ensemble.

[Unknown]

And that's where she met Daryl Dragon, basically.

[Evan]

Or he brought her on because he was touring with the Beach Boys already.

[Unknown]

And he wore a captain's hat to.

[Evan]

Tour with the Beach Boys. Boys.

[Ian]

And that's why he was known as the Captain Easy. Easy as that.

[Evan]

Captain and Tennille are just one of those groups. It's truly.

[Unknown]

I didn't know anything about them except that you have seen them on TV sometimes.

[Evan]

And she seemed really weird and he seemed really weird and weird in that.

[Unknown]

70S kind of like, let's forget the.

[Evan]

60S happened way or.

[Unknown]

It's just like these people are so wholesome seeming.

[Evan]

They must be hiding some incredibly straight strange real life.

[Unknown]

And that turned out to be totally true.

[Ian]

Pretty true. Yeah.

[Evan]

And yeah.

[Unknown]

And I also found that kind of.

[Evan]

To be an inspiring story that they, you know, spoiler alert. Divorced, but then sort of reconciled when Daryl Dragon was on his deathbed. And I.

[Unknown]

It made me. That was one of the ones where I really. Then I got really into listening to.

[Evan]

Captain and Tennille and came to just really appreciate what a good band they are and how weird and how beautiful their music is and strange.

[Unknown]

And they have a cover of Disney.

[Evan]

The Beach Boys song that is just awesome.

[Ian]

I gotta sing that.

[Unknown]

Really sad and weird. It's such a sad, weird song.

[Evan]

And then they do like a soft rock version of it that just is heartbreaking.

[Ian]

Even sadder and even weirder. Great. I mean, they're a great example of. I know virtually nothing about Captain Intel. I know Daryl Dragon is Dennis Wilson's weird stoner buddy from the early 70s who was trying to get him to go solo and then also getting hammered with him every night on the road. But Captain intel, this is an example of a cultural moment or a cultural artifact or whatever that just feels like.

[Molly Lambert]

So it's like looking at an alien object.

[Ian]

I don't even know how this ever like became a thing. What people were doing listening to this.

[Evan]

You'll find out if you read the.

[Unknown]

Book is part of an attempt at a cultural reset. But I do think a lot of.

[Evan]

That stuff remembered about the Carpenters as well, who are also kind of included in that of just like, actually, it's so weird. And actually there's like a female musician.

[Unknown]

At the forefront here.

[Evan]

Especially with the Carpenters where learned that.

[Unknown]

Karen Carpenter's drum teacher was like a.

[Evan]

Guy who was part of the LA Central Avenue jazz scene. Just sort of putting them in a context of the music business at that time, but also of the Los Angeles music scene.

[Unknown]

Made a lot of sense. And they're both. They're just 70s ladies.

[Evan]

My favorite. Just on a quest for meaning.

[Ian]

Well, they. I mean. Well, I was gonna say they. They figured out in the end Karen Carpenter not quite so much, unfortunately. But some of them figured it out in the end.

[Unknown]

I do feel like Karen Carpenter, like, had she lived, you know, she. She would have been re evaluated as a musician so soon after that. You know, I think.

[Evan]

Think that's part of the tragedy of the Carpenters and Karen Carpenter is that she's such a great drummer. And she was, I think, trying to make, like, a disco album at the time of her death. She was trying to, like, break away from the Carpenter sound a little bit. It is sad. And you hear it.

[Unknown]

You hear it in her voice.

[Evan]

And Kaplan and Tenille are sort of like the. There's just also. There's something so sad about the sweet, sweet.

[Unknown]

The sweetness of that music.

[Evan]

The kind of beautiful world it paints.

[Unknown]

That can never be real.

[Evan]

Which is. Brings us back to the Beach Boys.

[Molly Lambert]

Oh, it does indeed.

[Ian]

It always comes back to the lads in Hawthorne. Well, thank you for running us through this wonderful, wonderful book. It's such a. I don't know if we've made this sound like it's a big. Sometimes I don't like to read books because they seem like a big, heavy lift, and I just, like. I don't have time for that. But, like, you can. You can read this in, like, a day, basically, like I did. And it seems like it's a beautiful physical object as well. I only have the digital copy, but all the nice fonts and everything looks delightful.

[Unknown]

It looks cool.

[Evan]

It's fun to read. I am really stoked with how it turned out. And a designer named Chris Wu at workshops designed all the. The cool text stuff in it.

[Unknown]

And I'm.

[Evan]

Yeah, I'm really excited to. For people to get their hands on it. And you can buy it from commercial type. You can buy it in bookstores soon.

[Ian]

Or buy it out of the back of Molly's car.

[Evan]

Buy it out of the back of my car.

[Ian]

Driving down Sunset towards Dead Man's Curve.

[Unknown]

Did you ever know Dennis Woodruff?

[Evan]

He was like the guy who sold tapes out of his car. He made his own movie.

[Molly Lambert]

Dennis Woodruff.

[Ian]

No.

[Evan]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

He's such an LA legend. He would just drive around and his car was painted with, like, Dennis Woodruff, actor for hire.

[Ian]

Oh, you know what?

[Molly Lambert]

I think I did see this guy.

[Ian]

A couple times, like, on the fucking, like, 134, you know, just driving around the Valley.

[Evan]

Yeah, he's always driving around the Valley.

[Unknown]

Sell you a tape of one of.

[Evan]

His movies out of his car. Somebody just told me recently he passed, and I was like. But they couldn't verify it, which seemed correct.

[Unknown]

Last time I saw him was after Covid. And I was like, oh, my God, Dennis Woodruff's alive.

[Evan]

You know, Praise be.

[Unknown]

And he was starting a website that.

[Evan]

Was like, movies to watch when you're stoned.com or something.

[Ian]

That's cool.

[Evan]

Just a real classic LA character type guy.

[Unknown]

Honestly, a real Jan and Dean song.

[Molly Lambert]

Seems like it.

[Ian]

And according to his very brief Wikipedia.

[Molly Lambert]

Page, the grandson of one S.H.

[Ian]

Woodruff, a prominent dude developer of Hollywood land.

[Molly Lambert]

This is.

[Ian]

This is Los Angeles magic right here.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[Evan]

Well, thanks for having me again. I will see you in Folk City.

[Molly Lambert]

Please.

[Ian]

Oh God, I guess so. You know, whether we like it or not.

[Molly Lambert]

Thanks, Molly.

[Ian]

Thanks again to Molly. One more time. The book is Double X in pop. An incomplete survey available now from commercial type. We'll have a link in the episode description. We got one more. One more classic Jokerman package coming your way. Before 2024 is over for good, we're gonna finally make up for something that we've been ignoring for far too long. Pay a little tribute to a certain Welshman who we spent, you know, spent a couple years talking about. He's got a little more material that we want to touch base on and then we're on, on into the new year. We got some fantastic shit lined up. First couple weeks of 2025. It's been a great year for the old Jokerman podcast and I'm confident 2025.

[Molly Lambert]

Will be even better.

[Unknown]

In my garage. Country shade and lemonade yes, I'm slowing down it may turn backward With a local guy in a smaller town.

[Daryl Dragon]

Well.

[Unknown]

It'S open cars and clearer stars there's that's what I've learned the fantasy world and Disney girl I'm coming back love hi, Rick. Hi, Dave. Hi, Pop. Good morning, Mom. Love, get up.

[Evan]

Guess what?

[Unknown]

I'm in love with a boy I found.