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- [00:00]
Host 1
1, 2, 3, 4. Gonna have a real good time together we're gonna have a real good time together we're gonna laugh and chow together have a real good time together Na.
- [00:23]
Host 2
Na na na na na na na.
- [00:25]
Host 1
Na na na na na na na na na na.
- [00:53]
Host 2
Welcome back to Jokerman, the John Kale podcast.
- [00:59]
Host 1
That's right.
- [00:59]
Host 2
I did not think I would be saying that necessarily so soon, but I guess actually we're late.
- [01:06]
Host 1
We're very late. This is. This is. This is the last episode of Jokerman Podcast of the year 2024. It's not the last episode we're recording, but it is the last episode that you will be hearing in this cursed, blessed year. And that's right, I'm saying this right now. I saw you on Twitter at one point, Zach Hurley, listener Zach Hurley, you've given us guff about not paying due respect to the man, John Cale. And I said at one point, I promise we will do Poptical Illusion before the end of the year. Promise is made, Promise is kept. Literally 48 hours from now, it will be 2025, but we're doing John Cale, Poptical illusion here before the clock turns.
- [01:47]
Host 2
Yeah, he's been a great listener, Mr. Hurley, and I think, honestly, the most august authority on the music of John Cale outside of people who are paid to do that.
- [02:03]
Host 1
Someone. Yeah. One of the few people that I'm aware of that absolutely knows more about John Cale than either of us do. Not that we're great scholars or anything, but, like, you know, we spent some amount of time with the man's music. Zach definitely puts us both to shame. So salute, Apologies, Namaste for sticking with us up until this point when we do. This is actually. This is John's Johns and Ends three, everyone's favorite series.
- [02:28]
Host 2
Johns and Ends, Johns and Ends, Lost Times Are Not Found Again.
- [02:33]
Host 1
That's right. That's how it goes. We did. I think we did johns and ends one when we did, like, 19, we did, like, Animal justice, and we did, like, other stuff from that, like, 1977, 78 era. And then we did Johns and Ends 2, which was like some of the eps that he put out in the mid 2000s. And we talked about the All My Friends cover. Here we are, John's and Ends three, Poptical Illusion. And we're going to spend a little bit of time talking about the recently released reissues of Paris 1919 and the Academy in Peril, because those have also gotten some much needed love appreciation and, you know, Spit shining, sonically speaking. So a lot to Talk about here with our boy John. So I'm glad we're doing at least one more here before the clock strikes 2025.
- [03:21]
Host 2
So have you been listening to, had you been listening to Poptical Illusion since it came out?
- [03:29]
Host 1
I have, I've gone in, you know, waves up and down with pop Illusion, frankly. Honestly, the reason that I think we haven't gotten around to it quite yet. I was gonna write a review for this record for Aquarium Drunkard when it came out back in I think June at some point. But like, I don't know, I had shit going on and I ended up writing this like 5,000 word street legal thing that took way longer than I thought it was going to. And so the Poptical Illusion review just kind of fell, fell by the wayside. And it never obviously popped up on the Jokerman schedule because we had just started the Bob or not Bob, the Beach Boy stuff. Then we decided, oh, let's do a whole additional Randy Newman series. So you know, we've just, we've had a lot of stuff going over the last couple months and I've been listening to Popical Illusion up and down, in and out over that time. There's one song in particular that I've known from the first time I listened to this record, you know, a couple months before it came out on like the pre release stream. I knew it was an all time certified John Cale classic. Which I'm sure you know, you will agree with, if not everyone else. But the rest of the record, I feel like I've finally kind of cracked it recently because it is, it is a late era John Cale record in that it is a fucking long album. And there are large stretches of this record where it's kind, kind of slow and kind of boring. But once you get through the looking glass, I think it starts to reveal itself a little bit. How about you?
- [04:56]
Host 2
Not as much.
- [04:57]
Host 1
Okay.
- [04:59]
Host 2
But I've been listening to it lately of course, and I think that I don't, I mean, I feel kind of stupid coming to the record here with not much maybe specific insight to offer on the songs. And yet I think that it's a record that its nature sort of is such that you'll have a lot more to unravel. Like there's a lot of nooks and crannies in it. So I, I, I'm excited to have it be around. Like I can always sort of go back to it and find out new things.
- [05:42]
Host 1
Stick with it certainly. Well, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. What wisdom. Webs of wisdom we can spend. Nonetheless, what do we. I mean, something that we're both informed about at the very least will be the title and the COVID art. I'm. I'm. I'm certain that you have statements to lodge regarding those elements.
- [06:02]
Host 2
I mean, not really. I like the COVID I guess. I think that the COVID is. It's just sort of a very collage. It's just a collage, a photo collage. It's. I think it suits the record very well. I think the. The title is. Maybe there's more to say, but it's just. It's a silly title. I think that this, this record mainly is like where it, where it makes sense is just seeing. Comparing it to. Comparing it to Mercy, the record that came out before it. I do feel like this is almost like a Dylan esque turn of like heavy album, Light album.
- [06:45]
Host 1
It's John Cale's Together Through Life, you're saying.
- [06:48]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [06:49]
Host 1
After the Mercy Modern Times release. Previous. Yes. The title is baffling to me because it is. It's poptical illusion is the way that it's written, like on Spotify or something. But if you look at the COVID of the album, it's stylized pop, all caps, pop tickle. And then the word illusion is. Is upside down and jammed against the word popticole so that they're sharing one. Like. Like it's all one word, basically. There isn't even a space between it. That's. This is classic Hobo Sapiens. Black acetate. All one word. Capital A in acetate. Late era John Cale shit to me.
- [07:34]
Host 2
Yeah. Yeah. And also like late era John Kill shit. It has. And it just completely leans into the electronics side of things.
- [07:47]
Host 1
Yes. Yeah. It's almost like a. I mean, it is a solo album, you know, obviously, because every John Cale album is a solo album. But from what I understand, like this is really closer to a solo, you know, record that he put together. Remember, Mercy was a record that had tons and tons of features on it. You know, it had. Obviously Natalie Wiseblood was on a song. I think Animal Collective was on a song. Or was it Av Tay or Panic?
- [08:14]
Host 2
It was Animal Collective. It was Animal Collective also. Yeah. Who else? A lot of bands.
- [08:20]
Host 1
A lot of bands. Yeah. Like, you know, more than half the songs, I think, on Mercy and it was already a pretty long record, 12, 13 songs. More than half of them had some sort of feature on there. So a very collaborative record that, you know, from what I understand, John kind of put together piece by piece over time. You know, collaborating with other artists as they kind of popped up on his radar and poptical illusion to me, like I don't know the genesis of this like when it was made. If these songs were being constructed at the same time as some of the mercy songs or if they came all after that record in a burst of creative energy. But strikes me as much more of like an insular like really solo solo type of thing. Like him and instruments and computers obviously but like not really working with live bandmates or certainly other collaborators outside of. I think his producer or his manager got production credits. Nita Scott. But beyond that it's really. It's John Cale. John Cale. John Cale.
- [09:23]
Host 2
Yeah. I do think that you can listen to this record and sense that it has a. More like a personal one man in a laptop or whatever. I'm sure he's using some real synth.
- [09:38]
Host 1
He's got a desk. I'm sure John. I bet John Keel's a desktop type of fella. I don't think he has a laptop. I bet he has an iPad. I bet he has an iPad and then a desktop.
- [09:46]
Host 2
I don't know. I feel like he's probably got whatever the latest when it comes to making music. I think he's probably got whatever you can get, whatever the newest stuff is. And he's probably interested at least in that because the man is more than anybody his age interested in contemporary music. And when I say contemporary I mean like he's quoted as having been. I'm paraphrasing but saying that like trap music is where the energy actually is these days. And he's like listening to like mixtapes that come out but like SoundCloud rappers like kids on TikTok. I think he's very clued into genuinely it seems by what he said to be. He's curious at the very least about the most avant garde stuff of the hip hop underground. And he is right to say that. I mean there are things like I admit not to. I admit I don't follow rap and hip hop music as it develops which is, you know, it's a full time job. I think to.
- [10:55]
Host 1
You're not listening to Xavier so based hottest new rap artist of 2024.
- [11:01]
Host 2
No, but I wouldn't be surprised if John Cale is.
- [11:05]
Host 1
It's a joke for all the indie cast listeners out there.
- [11:15]
Host 2
The fact is that there is some really crazy stuff happening in that world and I do have friends who are more clued in, which is to say they're clued in at all. And I'll Occasionally just get sent something and I'm like, how, like, this production is bizarre. Like, it'll be literally something as loud and bleeding as, like, an actual. Like, they'll sample the fucking fire smoke alarm. And then, like, it'll just be that. And, like, the vocals be super high in the mix and there's, like, almost nothing else. And there's some very odd things happening. And I think he's voraciously absorbing that. But I think he also has his own style, of course, that he's been developing when it comes to, like, his electronic leaning music. And this record, maybe more so than Mercy, I think, feels like he's coming back to some of his own.
- [12:21]
Host 1
He.
- [12:22]
Host 2
He's. It's carrying on from, like, stuff like black acetate and definitely Homo Sapiens. More so than, like, sounding like, can I do a trap beat on a song and pull it off? Which he showed on Mercy he could actually kind of do.
- [12:38]
Host 1
Sure, yeah. I think it. It very much fits in with everything that he's been doing over the last 20 years, you know, here, here and there. There are moments on this record that do sound literally, like straight off of Hobo. Like the same way that some of the Hobo Sapiens music sounds like, you know, the, like, car select screen on a menu on a PS2 game. There are moments on this record that have that same energy to them. There is some material that definitely feels more okaron, you know, kind of cutting edge circa 2024, that wouldn't have sounded, you know, in place in 2003 or 2005. But I do feel like there's a very legible kind of canon here. Late kale, you know, 21st century kale with all these records. Nookie Wood, I think, is also a pretty clear antecedent for this album, right down to just like, kind of weird, nonsensical title and, like, kind of garish, bright, mystifying cover. It's all kind of part of whatever it is that this guy's up to. And I mean, the amazing thing about this. I mean, there are several amazing things about this. One is that this record came out like a year and change after Mercy came out, you know, And Mercy had been over a decade. You know, had been over a decade until there was new or since the previous original John Cale album. There was the M Fans remake in 2016, but Nookie Wood had come out 11 years earlier. This album comes out, you know, 18 months down the line. One amazing thing and then another is just, yeah, is the fact that an 80 something year old man is capable of making music like this. You know, like even someone like Bob, I think that he. Bob has kind of realized that rock music, certainly spitfire poetics in rock music or whatever, that's kind of either a young man's game or no one's game. You can't even really try to do that kind of stuff. And if you are, it's gonna be like a Dan Behar record or whatever. Bob Dylan himself cannot do what Bob Dyl did in Blonde on Blonde. And so he's. Bob, I feel like, is kind of consciously playing a different game than anyone else. And that's what we love about him. That's what's so great about him. John is. What's amazing about John in a different way is that he is playing kind of a young man's game here. And that's not to say that this music sounds like someone else's music necessarily. It doesn't. But it does absolutely kind of fit in with what's happening contemporaneously here in 2024. And I think he's keeping pace with it, if not, you know, ahead of the curve yet again. Once again, as always, as he has been for the last 60 something years. It's just like. It really is kind of crazy how endlessly current John Cale has always been able to be. Right back to, you know, theater of eternal Music shit, before the Velvets were even a band.
- [15:40]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think Bob Dylan has his way of being less subject to time. Like he has figured out his more sustainable way of being outside of that issue of like being dated. And we. We could talk in depth about how exactly that manifests, but this is the John Cale episode. So I. I think that John Cale just doesn't even. That I don't think that issue has ever occurred to him. I don't think he's ever thought how can I stay fresh? He's just actual. He's actually interested in what is current. And that's. There's never been a pause, as far as I can tell in his discography, especially in his later years, from what is influencing him. What music seems to be folded in versus not. Whereas Bob Dylan, the 1980s are the last time that he really was trying to go for a. Whether trying to go or not, allowing a zeitgeist flair of the current production sound thankfully into his music. He's sidestepped that masterfully.
- [17:05]
Host 1
Yeah, he's. Yeah. Bob is outside of time and John Cale is absolutely, you know, up to date, you know, on the on the cutting edge of time, I think.
- [17:13]
Host 2
Yeah. In the moment with it. Never. Never even approaching that issue. At least it doesn't seem like he's thinking about.
- [17:22]
Host 1
No, not at all. I do want to talk a little bit about the music on this record. I don't know that we're necessarily going to hit each and every single song individually here, but I mean, there some clear, obvious highlights here starting, I mean, this. If we were making the John Cale, you know, list at this point, this would be like a top 10 song for me right here.
- [17:46]
Host 2
Wow.
- [17:47]
Host 1
Davies and Wales Forever More Wales and.
- [17:59]
Host 2
Davis Davis and Wales Forevermore Davis. This is a big important thing to note in Wales. We didn't. I didn't know this.
- [18:21]
Host 1
They pronounce it Davis.
- [18:23]
Host 2
Davis in Wales.
- [18:24]
Host 1
Ah, interesting. Because that's John's, as we know, John's middle name and we've always called him John Davies. Kale. So is it really. It's really John Davis?
- [18:32]
Host 2
Yeah, it's just a little subtlety of the Welsh dialect.
- [18:37]
Host 1
Fascinating. Well, Wales and Davis. Davies and Wales.
- [18:41]
Host 2
Davis and Wales.
- [18:41]
Host 1
Davis and Wales. Just like this is exactly what I want out of John Cale, late era type shit. And this is like, you know, I think my love for Walking On Locust is well documented. At this point. I feel like the best parts of Poptical illusion, kind of. I feel ridiculous even saying the title of this album, Pop to Collusion. I love it. It's great.
- [19:05]
Host 2
His art pop could mean anything.
- [19:08]
Host 1
Yeah. The best parts of this record, I think, kind of consciously emulate a lot of what I love about Locus, which is this kind of effortless, buoyant, bright, boppy, propulsive kind of pop sound. And it's not a pop song by any means, but it is in the grand scheme of like the John Caleb continuum. It's much closer to that pop end of the spectrum, as opposed to sunblindness music or the Falkland Suite or whatever.
- [19:44]
Host 2
Sure.
- [19:46]
Host 1
It's a wide spectrum is what I'm saying. Even sabotage. When he leans into this. What passes for bubblegum pop from this guy, that's catnip to me. And I think Davis and Wales is an iconic example of that.
- [20:04]
Host 2
Yeah, I love the chorus. I have no idea what it comes from, like why he's singing this chorus. Davis and Wales Forevermore yes, yes, I agree.
- [20:16]
Host 1
Easy as that.
- [20:18]
Host 2
This record feels like it. I mean, I know we just said that it's like him kind of being right up to the moment, but it doesn't kind of feel like it could come out in like 2013 or 15. It has like that vibe to me.
- [20:33]
Host 1
Like, I think parts of it do. I. I don't think a song like this would have come out then, but there are moments on here, I think that do kind of have a little bit of nookie wooditis to them, which.
- [20:45]
Host 2
I mean, look at the COVID of Art Pop, the. The lady gaga album from 2013.
- [20:51]
Host 1
I'm familiar.
- [20:52]
Host 2
Yeah. But it kind of has the same exact vibe as this cover, even down to, like, it having this collage thing and like, weird distorted version of the title and like some version of the artists in question. It's got a very similar vibe.
- [21:11]
Host 1
Yeah, I see it. I mean, the mute. If you're talking about like the COVID and the title of this record specifically, that's one thing versus the music of it.
- [21:21]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's maybe different, but. Yeah, I love the way that the. The chorus in this song, like, it has some really interesting harmonies that are. It's a very odd mood, but it fully has realized it and it's. It's very catchy in a unique way, which I think is as much as you could hope for with something like this, is that it's memorably and uniquely catchy.
- [21:57]
Host 1
This episode of Jokerman podcast is presented by Distrokid. Over a million artists rely on Distrokid to distribute their music and get it into all of the places it needs to go. Your Spotify's, your Apple Musics, your YouTubes, your TikToks, your titles, your Instagrams, and any other streaming service of note. Distrokid makes music distribution fun and easy, with unlimited uploads and artists keeping 100%. That's right, 100. All of them folks of their royalties and earnings. Distrokid comes with tons of great features, including Mixia, which allows Distrokid users to put the finishing touches on their tracks in just minutes, getting a customizable and polished end result that anyone can feel confident in before sharing it with the world. The Distrokid app is available now on iOS and Android, so go to the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store to download it today. Yes, catchy is the word. I think this record and that to me. Did you. Have you listened to mercy much? You know, since it came out whenever it was almost two years ago?
- [23:14]
Host 2
Not that much, but, you know, me neither.
- [23:17]
Host 1
You know, I also, you know, have not really listened to it. And part of that is, I think the nature of literally like you and I, the way that we have to do this shit because I spend most of my. I was, you know, sending out the Jokerman stickers this last weekend and I was just listening to Carl and the Passions and Holland and 15 big ones the whole time, like doing my homework in advance of the mid-40s of the beach Boys. But wait till. Wait till we get to Miu album. That's a real flaming bag of dog shit. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Anyways, I don't get to listen to as much current music as I would in another if I didn't have to do this. And so part of why I haven't listened to Mercy is just based on that alone. But part of it is also, I think that it is, to me, it's sort of a turgid record. And turgid is maybe too strong of a word. I don't mean to be that sharp with my language, but it's just. It's a, I guess, deliberate and kind of slow and heavy record. You know, there are a couple great songs on there, obviously, but like, it really. It's a lot to commit to, I think. And there aren't a ton of hooks and things that you can just kind of throw on and dig for three or four minutes and go about your day or whatever. And Popsicle Illusion, starting with Davison Wells. Like, that is absolutely the mode, the mood that he's in here. And to me that's so fun for late era John when he kind of shakes off the weighty, heavy, atmospheric, beautiful music, certainly. But when he just kind of leans into bimbo mode. John. To use our former way of processing. The boys, Lou and John both. Yeah, this is the bimbo record. Mercy is the book record. I think that's a pretty easy way to look at the two of them.
- [25:15]
Host 2
It's definitely making me. I mean, trying to talk about late John Cale, late style John Cale. I have been sort of struggling to come up with like a theory of it. And I do feel like it's kind of maybe something in the way of enjoying it for me and generally, which I think that I've found kind of ways around. But initially his style can be a little bit. You said turgid. I think that that's not so far off. I mean, airless. Like the fact that it's all electronic and everything is direct. Like so much of it is just direct in. There's no room sound almost ever. There's nothing that feels like spontaneously occurring. It feels like it was maybe spontaneously programmed and thrown together, stitched together digitally. But there is the Thing that we want, you know, and. Or have come to want from John Cale, like, this sense of kind of loose canon. Like, you never know what's gonna happen. Even when it is orchestrated, that feels like it's threatened maybe a little bit by the fully electronic approach. Like, where is that air to, like, fan the flames? And I think, though, that I'm coming around to seeing it as more like he's painting with the digital form and the stuff represents those more naturalistic things rather than being made of them. There's a lot of that sort of is about the natural, the more rustic or naturalistic recording. Do you know what I mean? I think the biggest relationship, or the easiest analogy I can come up with for myself to understand is thinking about directors and their late style. Like, you know, you think about directors who.
- [27:32]
Host 1
Like late. Late Godar.
- [27:34]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah. Honestly, that might be the best example.
- [27:37]
Host 1
Goodbye to Language Era Godar.
- [27:40]
Host 2
Probably maybe the best example, actually, because, yeah, it's like, really dense and heady. But also I think part of the way to even enjoy that at all would be to just sort of allow it to be this thing that just. It's a new type of art form that he's sort of curious about that you're also only going to enjoy if you get curious about it, too, rather than comparing it to, like, what you love about, say, the early films by Godard, which are, like. They are like early Cale or Bob Dylan. You know, they have that, like. They talk about airiness and freedom and spontaneity. They. They seem to be like, all about that.
- [28:27]
Host 1
Right. And.
- [28:27]
Host 2
And now he's. Yeah, his last film is like a posthumous film that might not even have been directly made by him, but was, like, sort of directed in post by his notes. And then it's all these images and bright, garish colors and just reams of text and. Yeah. Like almost a pseudo documentary. I haven't really seen any of those movies in full, but, you know.
- [28:56]
Host 1
Yeah, I haven't seen anything since Goodbye to Language, which I, you know, found internally boring when I saw it at the Arrow with the little 3D glasses and stuff. But, you know, it was fun to say. Yeah, I mean, I think that's an interesting point and I agree in general. And it, you know, sort of naturally brings the question of, like, you know, just artists, late eras in general to mind. That's a subject near and dear to our hearts here on the old Jokerman podcast. Obviously, I think in John's case, at least, this is not a record that. And I mean, you can literally see this based on the streaming numbers which I was looking at on Spotify. Some of these songs, like How We See the Light was the first single that has 289,000 streams as of this recording. Most of the songs on this record have, like 25,000 plays, which is not a whole lot, you know, very little. This is not a record made for, you know, people. You know, like, indie scene people who are, like, reading Pitchfork and Brooklyn Vegan or, you know, if anyone even reads Brooklyn Vegan. You know, like, people who are trying to keep up with contemporary music and, like, you know, pride themselves on staying kind of aware of what's happening in the rock world, you know, in any given year. And this record is also certainly not going to earn John Cale any new fans, you know, legions of new listeners, you know, in Gen Z and Gen Alpha and beyond. I think a record like this and this, I think, is where the comparison to, like, you know, Late Godarshit is most valid. Like, this record is really most interesting and really, like, exclusively kind of made for. Directed towards. Insofar as it is made for anyone, you know, because Jon is obviously just making this to make it himself. He's making it for himself. But like. Like us, you know, people who have been with this guy through his whole career, you don't need to have checked in every single fucking step along the way, the way that, you know, the way that we have necessarily. But someone who has an understanding of the journey that he's been on from, you know, the Velvet Underground in Eco to Vintage Violence to the Island Records to Caribbean Sunset to locusts to the 2000s, shit, like, some familiarity with that overall framework for the man's career. I think a record like this is particularly resonant and interesting and important for. Because you really do, like, if you just listen to this record and this is the first John Cale record you ever listened to, you don't, like, you're not gonna. You're not gonna understand what makes John Cale, John Kael, you know, the same way that if you listen to Rough and Rowdy Ways the first time, and that's the first Bob record you've ever listened to, that, like, you might actually kind of get a better sense of Bob Dylan being Bob Dylan because, you know, especially like Murder Most Foul and some of the other songs on there, but at the same time, like, that record really doesn't bear a whole lot of resemblance to a Blonde on Blonde to a Blood on the Tracks, you know, to a Desire or something. I guess what I'm Saying is like these late era pieces of work. Megalopolis, another great example, right. Like stuff that is frustrating and weird and like, like combative, confrontational in some cases at least to viewers or listeners who don't have a familiarity with the artist in question. They need not apply. This isn't shit for you, right? Like this really is for the heads of the heads of the heads.
- [32:29]
Host 2
I don't know. I mean I do think that maybe that practically that's what it ends up being. But I think it's actually an attempt to not do that. I think like when I think about Megalopolis that's like this is not as.
- [32:41]
Host 1
This is not as psycho as Megalopolis.
- [32:43]
Host 2
Well, Megalopolis is also very sincere and I don't, I do think it's just trying to articulate ideas. I don't think that it's so, so much that John Cale is like looking to his past and then like laying Easter eggs. He's not like being self referential.
- [33:04]
Host 1
It is more about like the one song we've talked about is literally called Davis in Wales.
- [33:09]
Host 2
That's literally self referen but not. It doesn't necessarily sound like his other song. Sure. From the past and yeah, in the same way like Megalopolis, sure there's like a character that's named. He basically has himself in it. Like the baby's name is Francis. But there's also kind of a lack of interest in retreading familiar ground or like his signature moves. Like that's not really part of what this is about either.
- [33:40]
Host 1
And I think that you're saying that's true about both.
- [33:44]
Host 2
Yeah. And I think if John Cale wants to. To be a real John Cale fan is to be on board with him as somebody who is going to be just trying something maybe for the first time and see where it goes with him rather than to be like looking for the. Those. Those special things that you love from old John Cale records, you know.
- [34:11]
Host 1
Yeah, it's a fool's errand, you know, to expect there to be a, you know, Andalusia on this record. Just as the same as there, you know, it's a fool's errand to expect there to be a, you know, sad eyed lady of the Lowlands on a. On a new Bob Dylan record. I think it does bear some resemblance to what has gone on in, you know, more recent era John stuff. And certainly like I get some strong mercy. I think the reason this record, I applied myself to this record around the time it was coming out and I couldn't really Grab it. And then I've kind of been dipping my toes in back and forth over the last couple months until I finally cracked it this time. The middle of this record is just. There's too much. And God bless him for making these songs and getting them out there. And it's better, all things considered, certainly for the historical record that we have all this music as opposed to him like, you know, cutting some of these songs and then leaving them on the cutting room floor. But like, by the time you get to Calling you Out, which is the third song right after Davis and Wales, Edge of Reason, I'm Angry How We See the Light, Company Commander.
- [35:20]
Host 2
Well, I think by the time you get to Company Commander, that's a long.
- [35:24]
Host 1
That'S a long run of a lot of mid tempo mercy kind of shit. And it kind of. You gotta, you gotta stick with it.
- [35:33]
Host 2
I like the record from the first track to How We See the Light. How We See the Light, obviously the first single, I do think it actually has some of the strongest presentation on the album. Like it feels the most songy of a lot of these and that is obviously why it was one of the first things to come out. But not every song has that same focus. And I do think that if you get into a song like that or if you really like Davis and Wales, I think that that's the issue with the record that you might run into is like you bring that same attention. You're ready to get the sort of oddly hooky John Cale pop song. And then actually it's like one of several meandering kind of loop based numbers that are barely what you could call a song based on like a verse, chorus, verse. It's, it's more of like a motif and they're, they're interspersed completely haphazardly it seems like which ones get to be. The sequencing isn't like. It's not like all the catchy ones are on one side and then there's like a more ambient sort of wandering side. It's, it's the luck of the draw. Like as you're listening to this record sort of.
- [37:18]
Host 1
I think this record actually really picks up like picks up considerably towards the end and like the final third of this album is actually like really, really strong. And the first two songs, you know, God Made Me do it the, the first track and then obviously Davidson Wales, which we've talked about already, like I think and, and this is my kind of overall like kind of read on this record at this point is if he wanted to like there is a better record in this record, I think, than it exists. And I feel like, you know, neither of us are being very Jokerman mindset about this whole thing. So I apologize in advance to everyone out there and certainly to John himself. But, you know, we're going to call it like we see it. If he wanted the package, the lp, the unit, right, to be a stronger, more focused, more effective piece that would, you know, rank higher in the John Cale album discography rankings or whatever. Like, I think he cuts. What is this? It's a 13 song record. I think if you cut like four songs here and turn this into a nine song record, that would still be long because these are long songs. You could have a 45, 50 minutes record here with nine songs and it's more focused and tighter and easier to listen to and kind of tells a story more effectively. I think, you know, you can still keep some of these meandering, as you put it, songs and space them out more effectively. But that's not like, that's not his goal here, right? Is creating the tightest, most effective, perfect, like side one, side two, lp. And like, why should it be, right? Like records, albums, LPs like that barely even exists as a format anymore. So. And this maybe is where John is more up to date than you and I are here is like, think about a lot of the big, like the big, big records, like a new Drake record or something is just. Is like endlessly long. You know, there's like 30 songs on all of these albums and they're not designed to be listened to as an album from top to bottom where you flip the side. It's just like it shows up on playlists, you hit shuffle. It's something that is served to you algorithmically. And the more, the more music there is, the better because there's just more songs by you and there's more chances for your songs to get heard by people. And I feel like that is kind of. That's what poptical illusion is, is John Cale's kind of version of making an album like that. It's kind of same thing with Mercy as well. And for me, where I kind of have a challenge with these albums to the extent that I do, is that. That is. You know, I'm very retrograde in the way that I listen to music. I like to listen to an album 1 to 10, you know, front to back, top to bottom, in order. And so when that. That single unit package is not as tight, effective, kind of well constructed as it could be, that's when I start to struggle a little bit. Does that make sense?
- [40:10]
Host 2
Yes, it does. I think that the way a lot of the songs work mirrors the way that the sequencing and the whole record works. Which is to say, yeah, it's kind of post album. It's not really about. It's. In a way, it's post song as a sort of first chorus, verse thing. Like I said, there's these kind of more general motifs or textures or rhythms that. Yeah, like beats, basically. A lot of them that he kind of just goes in and out of. Like he. He's present during its duration. And the record itself also has that quality. And I do think, yeah, maybe he is just ahead of the game on that. Like, he's just sort of generously presenting a lot of music and. Yeah, it's just about. It can undercut the drama. I think the way that it's sort of presented like a buffet.
- [41:15]
Host 1
Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, the buffet is, I think, a great, you know, type of experience. Like think about or analogy. Think about like a, you know, a well directed, like four course meal, five course tasting menu. Exactly. A prefix where like all the pieces are kind of, you know, all the plates are carefully considered and the way the meal flows from beginning to end is. Is thoughtful and deliberate. And like, that's kind of how we like to listen to records versus, you know, the buffet. You just. You go. You go there and you go to the. You get the roast beef under the carving lamp and you get. You get a little like turkey leg, you know, from the turkey bucket. You get a big old thing of the mashed potatoes. Sushi. And then also like, you know, chocolate cake and then like the ice cream bar and like king crab legs and stuff.
- [42:04]
Host 2
Crab legs. Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, you don't wanna. You realize, like, oh, shit, I totally neglected the oysters and I already got the pot pie. I guess I'll just add some.
- [42:19]
Host 1
It's all there for you, you know, you. Your pick of the, you know, pick of the litter. But it. It doesn't necessarily, you know, satisfy you.
- [42:29]
Host 2
Well, it's like. Yeah, it's up to you in a way where it's like. I don't know if I want it to be up to me.
- [42:34]
Host 1
Right. Exactly.
- [42:35]
Host 2
Am I. Should. Should I be trusted with this?
- [43:04]
Host 1
But, you know, to the record, you know, back to the record, you know, specifically, a little bit more. I feel like it really picks up once again, not. Not coincidentally, I would say, with the sequel to Barracuda. Yeah, the sequel to Baraka.
- [43:18]
Host 2
The sequel To Barracuda.
- [43:19]
Host 1
Yeah, Shark Shark. I mean, like, iconic. One of the best songs here. Again, one of the best songs, I think, that John's made in the last however many years. And it's just like. I mean, do you know what Shark Shark is about?
- [43:33]
Host 2
No, no, no more than I know what Funkball the Brewster is about.
- [43:39]
Host 1
I love Funkball the Brewster, too. I think this final run from Shark Shark to Funkball the Brewster, all to the good. Laughing in My Sleep, There Will Be no River, those five songs. I think that's great. You know, basically as is. I think you just ultimately, like, if you compressed that middle third down to like, two songs instead of six songs, that's where, you know, that's where this record could be greater. But Shark Shark is just so. I've been. I've been just, like, walking around my house, like, muttering, Shark, Shark. Endless. I'm sure my wife is, you know, thinks I'm going insane at this point. But I love this song. I can't stop listening to it. And this was one that I didn't connect with immediately, you know, when I first got into it a couple months ago, the way I did with Davis and Wales, but like the kind of like sort of a motoric, like, kraut rock kind of beat to this. And then there's also this kind of like edgy, garagey, like, guitar that's coming through. Like. I really dig the sound here. It's like John Cale solo garage rock, like electro Gularage rock. I don't know. He's just. He's working in my lane with his influences on this song. Take Me Down.
- [45:17]
Host 2
I know that I might not have said things that would suggest it, but actually some of my favorite things are like, these more languid numbers. Like, I actually really like. I like Laughing in My Sleep. I like the first track, God Made Me do it parenthetical. Don't ask me again. I like the. What's. What's it called? I'm Angry, which doesn't sound angry at all. It's like that song, so plaintive and kind of calm. I. I like that stuff. And Shark, Shark is fine. Yeah, it's good.
- [46:01]
Host 1
Shark, Come on.
- [46:02]
Host 2
Shark, Shark, Shark, Take me down. But, yeah, I. I like these ones that sort of have a. It is a put it on album, I think.
- [46:15]
Host 1
I think so.
- [46:16]
Host 2
I think you can just throw this record on, actually.
- [46:18]
Host 1
Might depend on whose company you're in.
- [46:20]
Host 2
But I don't think it's for company. Like, actually, the thing that made me like this record more was listening to it alone.
- [46:26]
Host 1
Yeah, I'm in. Subjecting your girlf to this one?
- [46:28]
Host 2
No, no, I haven't. But listening to it, just walking around, I think that's the ideal scenario for this. I think walking around like a major city would be a good way to experience this record.
- [46:44]
Host 1
What about all the folks in rural areas? How do they enjoy this record? Go to kill yourselves.
- [46:52]
Host 2
Yeah, go to the mall. I don't know. I do think that this record has like. For me the way that it opens up is to kind of. It helps to be around like man made and artificial things because it sounds so much like that. And you're kind of looking for like the human aspect, the human element within these songs because it's so artificial. And I feel like that's how you experience how one experiences. Walking through a city too is like, yes, it's completely paved over and there's so much that feels like unnatural and plastic and metallic, but within that you are going to notice so much evidence of the human touch. And I do feel like the more that that's been around me while I've listened to this kind of. This music, I've kind of been like, okay, I see that, like, I feel like he's. He might be writing for that mode more so than he was in the past. Like if Paris 1919 is very specifically about an. An older time period, of course, as the title would suggest, and it very much has references musically and textually that refer back to the early part of the 1900s and a pre war era. There is, I think maybe a key to understanding modern Kael even since like the 2000s and the mid-90s, is that I think he's been writing more of and about modernity. And it opens up to me a bit when I try to consciously consider that, yeah, makes sense.
- [48:46]
Host 1
I like thinking about this record as a Los Angeles record, which it is.
- [48:49]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [48:49]
Host 1
Because John lives in Los Angeles and the whole thing was made in his little Los Angeles studio.
- [48:53]
Host 2
It does have like a quality of if I'm like walking around and then I'm looking at one of these, you.
- [49:01]
Host 1
Gotta be driving around. That's your first mistake, walking or driving.
- [49:04]
Host 2
But you know, you see like one of these new fangled bus stops with like a big screen on it instead of the poster thing, they change out and it's like instantly defaced and covered and like shit and piss, graffiti and blood. But it's like was just installed and it like has like a modern look that, you know, like somebody at the Civic Community Research Bureau was Like working on for years. That is the. The feeling of this record. And. And I think that what he's kind of doing. What if he wants to say something with this music, I do feel like he's saying. Like he's saying to look for the things that don't change. Like the human instincts and feelings and thoughts that. That don't change, even though the way they're delivered, the medium and the. The texture of things is seemingly so different and so electronic, so artificial. And yet I don't think he's like really going for maximum, like emotional catharsis at all times either. He's. He's doing that sometimes with something like. I think how we see the light is maybe like this. The key moment of this record of what he's really trying to say and in the way I just described. But there's plenty that I think is about more subtle emotional territory and that doesn't really have such high drama or stakes. But yeah, I think that the way I'm going to continue this. My enjoyment of this record is to further consider it in. In the. I'll go to like the Americana and I'll walk around, like, I'll walk around downtown Glendale, holiday time listening to this perfect.
- [51:03]
Host 1
Up and down Brand Boulevard.
- [51:05]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [51:06]
Host 1
Wait in a really long line of Portos. Yeah. Pop the illusion. Two stars for me. I really like this record. I think it could be better, but I think there's some total bangers on this album. Definitely more my speed, more flavor than mercy. Shark. Shark.
- [51:25]
Host 2
Yeah, I give it two as well. I think the ways it could be better are just maybe if there was less of it. Which is a pretty high compliment, actually.
- [51:35]
Host 1
That's right. But you know what? If there had been less of it, that might have meant that we wouldn't have gotten Shark. Shark.
- [51:40]
Host 2
And that's true. You never know.
- [51:43]
Host 1
Shark.
- [51:43]
Host 2
Shark.
- [51:44]
Host 1
Well, before we get out of here, I think we want to also just touch briefly, I guess. I don't know if you're gonna have more to say about this than I am. I've got some thoughts, but not a whole lot, but the, you know, the recently reissued classics from John in the early 1970s. I speak, of course, of the Academy in Peril, 1972, and then the follow up, 1973, the John Cale record, if there is a John Cale record for the General Public, Paris 1919, both of which have been remastered remixed here in 2024. And also, at least in the case of Paris, come along with a series of additional bonus tracks, session cutting room floor material, I think there is one extra song on the Academy in Peril, but it's not particularly remarkable. What do you think?
- [52:37]
Host 2
Well, I don't really want to say too much about the Academy in Peril because I don't know.
- [52:45]
Host 1
You haven't listened to the Academy in peril since 2022.
- [52:47]
Host 2
No, no, I have listened to it, but I have listened to the new remaster. I think it sounds great and I think everything we've said about it on our episode applies.
- [53:01]
Host 1
We'll refer you back to the.
- [53:03]
Host 2
Look, folks, it's not that easy to do a whole episode about an instrumental experimental, avant classical record.
- [53:12]
Host 1
I think we did a good job on that.
- [53:13]
Host 2
I think we did a good job. I'll refer you back to that. That's why I'm pointing it out. It's probably an under listened episode anyway.
- [53:21]
Host 1
Yeah, it's on Patreon. I think we did a joint episode that was actually the first John and Ends. We didn't even realize at the time because we did Academy, Imperil and Church of Anthrax together in one episode. But I think that was like the fourth episode of that whole Lou and John series that we did. So we didn't really know. Didn't know what we were doing quite yet. But yeah, I mean, I agree in general. And this goes for Academy in Peril and Paris both. I'm kind of amazed. To me, I like the bonus tracks, the extra shit. Even on Paris, where there are a couple songs that are tacked on there, like, not particularly interesting. This isn't bootleg series material from Bob Dylan by any means. There isn't a revelatory. There's no Blind Willie Mattel or Foot of Pride or something that you're listening to here and up to me. But in terms of the remaster and at least just kind of the attention that these records and the care and the love that they're getting, I'm stoked about that. I love seeing that. And this is kind of my general thought or concept on the whole thing is like I do feel like John's. John's solo material at least, you know, the Velvets have been canonized and well curated and you know, presented and repackaged and re. Presented and re repackaged. You know, they're doing fine. But the John Cale solo stuff I do think has been kind of like. People haven't really taken good care of it certainly to the extent that they should have, you know, definitely compared to someone like Lou. Right. Like we see with all the great stuff from like Lightning Attic. The whole Lou Archives team, people are really taking good care of the Lou Reed legacy and remastering things. Re releasing, putting out expanded editions and stuff. And everything is accessible on streaming. Even that has not been the case for John. It's just been kind of a mishmash of material here and there. And I think hopefully this is kind of the first wave of stuff that's going to continue. But I'm very glad that whoever it is, whether it's John and his people or record labels, some combination of them both, like, people are really starting to look after the man's artistic legacy the way that they should. Because this is some of the very best shit ever. Ever. And like the Paris reissue remaster, I should say, kind of amazing, like, how good this sounds compared to the original version.
- [55:46]
Host 2
That's what I really wanted, to spend more time. I mean, like you, I'm very happy that. That something as un overlooked as Academy Imperil is getting this treatment. And that's nothing but a good thing. But when it comes to these two. Yeah, I think, like, the. The Paris 1919 reissue remaster is. It's pretty great. I mean, it definitely, like, it feels like a real film has been taken off of the image totally. It's so clear. And there's details in the recordings that ought to be noticeable and are. And I just came away feeling more than ever how great this album is. I think it's easily one of his best. I mean, that's not controversial, but there's. There's stuff like nuances in the playing that are just very clear here and are fantastic. I think it's a. This might actually be the thing that on a. In a subtle way, actually is the difference between someone hearing this album and going, yeah, okay, it's cool, or falling in love with it.
- [57:21]
Host 1
It could be, yeah. You know, if you're. If, you know, for the right kind of person. I never really thought of Paris as like a, you know, fuzzy, you know, poorly produced record. And I still don't really. And maybe that's because of the way the record is made, you know, compared to Poptical Illusion or something. Like, this is. You talk about room sound and, like, real instruments. Like, this is as, you know, real as it gets. This is, you know, John Cale imitating, you know, Barris in 1919. Musically speaking, with some of the instruments and stuff. But here, yeah, I mean, just doing an A B test. I was kind of floored with how clean and clear and, like, three dimensional I think the record sounds now. And going back to the original version, it still sounds good, you know, it's still some amazing fucking songs, but it does kind of feel like muddy and flat and, like, all the colors are kind of, like, mixed together, you know, as opposed to this new remaster. Like, everything is crisp and clear and separated. It's really exciting.
- [58:25]
Host 2
Yeah. I think that it's similar to that thing that happened with Pet Sounds, but it's more. It's actually better than that. Like, with the Pet Sounds Dolby Atmos thing, like, you can hear certain things clearer. But actually, I think it doesn't help the record. It doesn't. Like, it kind of is at the expensive atmosphere, in my opinion, the way that that turns out. Whereas this, I feel, actually is like, just polishing something that had gotten a little tarnished and. And it's not changing really anything of what it is. It's just making it a bit more shiny and, like, it, like, new is how it feels.
- [59:14]
Host 1
There you go.
- [59:15]
Host 2
Like, just dusting it off, really. It doesn't even feel like. Again. Yeah. I didn't think of this album as being, like, poorly produced or particularly muddy, but it is a record that, as we, I think, get the message is important here, if nothing else, that. But it's a record that deserves to be given every chance to be presented as well as. And as directly as it can be, because everything on it is so worthy of that. It's a masterpiece, basically.
- [59:51]
Host 1
Easy as that. I mean, like, some of these songs, like, Half Past France, the way those, like, guitars come in at the beginning, just like, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. Oh, man, that was like a jaw drop. It sounds amazing.
- [60:08]
Host 2
And on Andalucia, those, like, the faint percussion, that. Which. Actually, I never noticed how much this song feels a little bit like Walk on the Wild side.
- [60:18]
Host 1
Yeah, it does kind of have a little bit of that, doesn't it?
- [60:20]
Host 2
It does, at least.
- [60:22]
Host 1
Yeah. Like the beat, certainly.
- [60:24]
Host 2
Yeah. And all of it. Yeah. It just feels like it's given a second chance, which it absolutely deserves. And I do think more people than ever know about John Keel's music, as much as one can bitch and complain about the algorithm and how it makes it impossible for people to just discover stuff in the record shop. All that romance of what people used to have. In that way, I do think more people know about John Kale than ever before. And I do think it's because of the algorithm just throwing it into shit.
- [61:02]
Host 1
Yeah, maybe.
- [61:05]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [61:06]
Host 1
But I think so. I mean.
- [61:07]
Host 2
And I mean, I'm not saying that it's like better that it's this way. But if, if people discover this album because of this reissue and remaster, I think that it's, it's got a bigger chance than it might have had in the past. And I think that John Cale probably isn't so down on the algorithm. Like, I don't, I wonder if he even cares about that. It seems like he's kind of just interested in whatever is current, whatever the current form is. He's happy to be part of it.
- [61:47]
Host 1
Sure, yeah. I mean, I'm not saying that my approach towards algorithmic music listening or anything is any better than anyone else's. I just, you know, I'm setting my ways. I'm a stone, you know, capeman like that. However people arrive at this record, at John Cale, I think that having this album in a clean, tidy, beautiful, crystal clear package like this is going to make it easier for them to get John and to go on a great journey with this man's music. And now we gotta just hope that the same level of attention to detail, you know, and time and care and energy is applied to some of the other records. I mean, I'm not, I'm not expecting like a 20 song remastered edition of Caribbean Sunset or something, but at least like getting the man's shit on streaming platform so you can listen to all the albums and stuff. There's so much material from John that just like is unlike you. You can find it on YouTube, I guess, if you're like, you know, dialing stuff in there. But it, like if you're listening to music on YouTube, it doesn't, that's its own thing. It just, it's, it's, it suffers from, you know, a lack of curation and discoverability and care, I think. And so the more anyone can do at any record label or streaming service or whatever, just to like put it out there, make it available to people and you know, and beautify it in some cases like we have with Paris and the Academy in peril. That's, that's two thumbs up for me. That's three star behavior for me.
- [63:25]
Host 2
Yes, thank you, Domino, for doing that.
- [63:28]
Host 1
Yes, indeed. Well, you know, Johns and Ends three. There it is. There's some more Johns and Ends for you out there.
- [63:37]
Host 2
Worth noting that there are two new reissues coming out, but I don't believe they're remasters. Right.
- [63:44]
Host 1
Yeah, there were some records that were repressed in the UK that we very kindly received promo copies of. So thank you once again. It was Slow Dazzle and Helen and Fear. It was all the island records, you know, the island trilogy there. So those are just being. I don't think there is new music, you know, production remaster touches the way that there is on these records. But they are at least being repressed, repackaged and, you know, available in record stores near you.
- [64:16]
Host 2
And let's get them on the damn streaming services. Let's get Slow Dazzle on the damn streaming.
- [64:21]
Host 1
That's right.
- [64:22]
Host 2
I know there's more stuff than there used to be on the streaming.
- [64:26]
Host 1
I think isn't Slow Dazzle on streaming, but it's like not there as Slow Dazzle.
- [64:33]
Host 2
Something like that.
- [64:34]
Host 1
Yeah. There's this compilation called the Island Years, but this is part of it, right? Is like if you type in Slow Dazzle on Spotify, there is no Slow Dazzle album. But if you look for the Slow Dazzle songs, they show up on this confusing compilation called the island years. That's from 1996. It's like too confusing. Someone clean this up. Clean it up.
- [64:58]
Host 2
Jeweller isn't on there. Yeah, just someone fix this.
- [65:02]
Host 1
Hire us. We'll do it. We figured it out.
- [65:07]
Host 2
Hire Ian.
- [65:11]
Host 1
Well, thank you all for listening to Jokerman podcast in 2024. A real banner year for the program, I'd say. I feel like every year has been a banner year, but I definitely feel like we're were onward and upward and headed towards bright new pastures. But we didn't want to completely abandon one of the men that got us to where we are today. So here we are, paying a little respect to the man, John Davis Kael.
- [65:41]
Host 2
Jokerman. She makes me so unsure of myself Standing there but never ever talking sense Just a visitor you see so much wanting to be seen she'd open up the doors and vaguely carry us away. It's the customary thing to say or do to a disappointed, proud man in his grief. And on Fridays she'd be there, but.
- [66:31]
Host 1
On Mondays, not at all. Just casually appearing from the clock across the hall.
- [66:37]
Host 2
Here it goes. Not alive alive la.
- [66:46]
Host 1
I'm the church and I come to claim you with my iron drum.