NES 024: THE COMPLETE BUDOKAN + Charlotte '78

Summary

Episode Summary: NES 024: THE COMPLETE BUDOKAN + Charlotte '78

Introduction

In episode NES 024 of the Jokermen Podcast, titled "THE COMPLETE BUDOKAN + Charlotte '78," hosts Steve, Ian, and Ellen embark on an in-depth exploration of Bob Dylan's pivotal 1978 performances. Released on December 13, 2024, this episode serves as a comprehensive guide to Dylan's Complete Budokan box set and the legendary Charlotte '78 show, offering fans a rich analysis of one of the most transformative periods in Dylan's career.

Context of the 1978 Bob Dylan Tour

The discussion begins with Ian setting the stage for the 1978 Bob Dylan tour, emphasizing its significance in Dylan's discography. "[00:35] Ian: And today it is. It's 1978, up in this bitch. We've got a beautiful hot rod of a rock and roll show on deck here." The hosts highlight the tour's dual nature, combining Dylan's classic hits with new, experimental renditions that reflect his personal and artistic struggles during this time.

Steve remarks on Dylan's appearance and energy, likening Ian's presentation to Eminem's from 1999. "[01:23] Steve: Can I just say, like you said up in this bitch at the beginning, and you weren't. And you're wearing, like, a white undershirt." This sets a playful tone as they dive into the deeper analysis of Dylan's state of mind and the tour's reception.

Analysis of Complete Budokan Box Set

Steve introduces the Complete Budokan 1978 box set, praising its extensive collection: "[07:04] Steve: It's going to be wild when we break this down because we actually have, like, the Budokan moment category." The hosts discuss how the box set, which includes every song from Dylan's Tokyo and Osaka performances, challenges the original negative perceptions of the Budokan album. Ellen notes, "[23:28] Ellen: The punishment zone. Like, the solitary," referring to the harsh critiques the original release faced.

They delve into standout tracks like "Girl from the North Country," showcasing the profound duet performance with Alan Pasqua: "[26:12] Ellen: It's here in spirit. There is a song that sounds like it." This version differs significantly from the original, offering a new emotional depth and highlighting Dylan's evolving artistry.

Deep Dive into Charlotte '78 Show

The conversation shifts to the Charlotte '78 show, celebrated as one of Dylan's best performances. Steve expresses excitement: "[03:33] Steve: It's going to be a December 10, 1978, at the old Charlotte Coliseum in Charlotte, North Carolina." The hosts praise the show's set list refinement and musical arrangements, noting how it surpasses the Budokan recordings in quality and execution.

Ellen highlights the band's expansive lineup, including Alan Pasqua on keyboards and Steve Douglas on horns, which gives the performance a lush, orchestral feel: "[48:05] Steve: It's such an indulged, I think as Bob ever gets as a like live performer." They discuss how Dylan's willingness to experiment with his classic songs in new formats made the Charlotte show a standout event.

Standout Performances and Moments

Several key performances are dissected in detail:

• “Senor (Tales of Yankee Power)”: Lauded for its epic delivery, Ian shares, "[56:34] Ian: It's incredible. It's fantastic."

• “It’s All Right Ma (I’m Only Bleeding)”: Ellen appreciates the showmanship and dynamic arrangement, stating, "[51:10] Ellen: It's pretty good stuff because it's like so completely blown out into the stratosphere with such commitment and pizzazz."

• “Tangled Up in Blue”: Ian praises the soulful interpretation and lyrical changes, considering it his all-time favorite live version: "[61:57] Ian: This is like my all time favorite version of Tangled up in Blue."

• “Changing of the Guards”: Exalted for its explosive energy, Steve comments, "[59:46] Steve: This is the best Dylan Live Signor I've ever heard. It just blows me away."

Impact and Legacy

Steve and Ian explore how the Complete Budokan box set and the Charlotte '78 show have redefined Dylan’s 1978 tour, countering earlier critical disdain and illustrating a period of artistic bravery. They discuss Dylan’s innovative approach to live performances, where he continuously reinvents his songs, setting a precedent for his neverending tour legacy: "[35:17] Steve: I think it's a personal thing."

Personal Preferences and Ratings

The hosts share their personal favorites, with Steve expressing profound admiration for the Charlotte '78 show despite some reservations about certain arrangements. Ian remains enthusiastic about the box set's revelations, while Ellen balances appreciation with critical observations on specific performances. Notable quotes include:

• Ian on Dylan’s search for validation: "[03:20] Ian: He's doing a little bit of a dance for the folks out there and trying to send them home happy, make them love him well."

• Steve on the transformation of Dylan’s songs: "[35:17] Steve: I definitely think it's a personal thing."

• Ellen on the emotional depth of performances: "[51:39] Ellen: He really sold me."

Wrap-up and Future Episodes

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts contemplate creating a "best of" episode, reflecting on their favorite shows from past discussions. They hint at upcoming episodes focusing on other artists and deep dives into previously covered material, promising continued exploration of Bob Dylan’s rich musical legacy: "[116:07] Steve: All right, well, we'll do that before the end of the year."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a vital resource for die-hard Dylan fans and newcomers alike, offering fresh perspectives on a controversial era of his career. By reevaluating the Complete Budokan box set and celebrating the Charlotte '78 show, the hosts provide a nuanced understanding of Dylan’s artistic evolution and enduring influence within the rock genre. As Steve aptly puts it, "[114:30] Steve: All the millions of Bob Dylan listeners... there's something worth coming back to here."

Listeners are encouraged to engage with the hosts’ insights and share their own favorites, ensuring a dynamic and ongoing conversation about Bob Dylan’s timeless music.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ian: "He's looking for love... trying to send them home happy, make them love him well." ([03:20])

• Steve: "This is the best Dylan Live Signor I've ever heard. It just blows me away." ([59:46])

• Ellen: "He really sold me." ([51:39])

• Steve: "I definitely think it's a personal thing." ([35:17])

Key Timestamps:

• 00:35: Introduction to the 1978 Charlotte show.
• 03:20: Discussion on Dylan's state of mind during the tour.
• 26:12: Highlighting "Girl from the North Country."
• 48:05: Praise for the band's expansive lineup.
• 56:34: "Senor (Tales of Yankee Power)" performance.
• 59:46: "Changing of the Guards" analysis.
• 61:57: "Tangled Up in Blue" favorite live version.
• 114:30: Final thoughts on the significance of the box set and Charlotte show.

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Transcript

[Steve]

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Would you please welcome Columbia recording artist Bob Dylan.

[Ian]

Maggie SpongeBob. Welcome back to Neverending Stories. Plus about Bob Dylan and the Neverending Tour and other Bob Dylan tours. I'm in.

[Ellen]

I'm Ellen.

[Steve]

And I'm Steve.

[Ian]

And today it is. It's 1978, up in this bitch. We've got a beautiful hot rod of a rock and roll show on deck here. As far as the bootleg goes, it's gonna be December 10, 1978, at the old Charlotte Coliseum in Charlotte, North Carolina. But we also have coming out this week, tomorrow, in fact, if you're listening to this as the day it publishes Bob Dylan, the Complete Budokan, 1978. Every fucking song from every show performed at that storied venue. Whether you want it or not, it's going to be a 1978 extravaganza here. The beginning of the year, the end of the year, maybe a little bit of contrast. Some highs, some lows. What we like about each.

[Steve]

Can I just say, like you said up in this bitch at the beginning, and you weren't. And you're wearing, like, a white undershirt.

[Ian]

That's right.

[Steve]

Which people can't see because this is a podcast, but you're very, like. You have, like, very Eminem in 1999 energy right now.

[Ian]

That's what I'm going for. You know, all the Zoomers are into, like, kind of millennium new metal, like Slipknot and corn and Slim Shady kind of stuff. So I'm just trying to keep up with the kids.

[Steve]

I just wonder if you're going to be, like, lashing out in this episode.

[Ian]

I might.

[Steve]

It's going to be like, Ian finally give us a piece of his mind.

[Ian]

Ian unleashed. Yeah. I'm going to talk about. What is he. What does he talk about? Like, beating his wife. Right. Isn't that. Who.

[Ellen]

Oh, not Bob Dylan.

[Ian]

Eminem.

[Ellen]

Okay. Yeah.

[Steve]

I mean, like, Bob Dylan in the show is talking about, like, hanging out with gypsies.

[Ian]

Yes.

[Ellen]

He loves that story. He does the One More cup of Coffee shtick.

[Steve]

And there's like, the. And then, like, before Senor, there's, like, the horned man with, like, smoke coming out of his.

[Ian]

He's meeting the devil on the train. Yeah, apparently.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Ellen]

Yeah. He's very. I mean, he's not just talkative in this show. He's like Rhapsody. He's. He's like a storyteller. It's weird. It's unconventional.

[Ian]

I think he's looking for a response. He's looking for love. To be honest, I think that he wants. He. He's going through it at this moment in time at the very end of 19, and he's looking for anyone to validate his existence and help him not feel like a complete rundown piece of shit who released a terrible movie and a terrible album and has embarked on a terrible tour. According to the press. According to the press at the time of 1978, we don't believe that here, of course, he was just down in the dumps. And I think a lot of those speeches that you get in the Charlotte show, he's doing a little bit of a dance for the folks out there and trying to send them home happy, make them love him well.

[Steve]

And also, like, as we previously discussed in our Benny Safdie episode, this show that we're talking about happened after his moment in a Tucson hotel room.

[Ian]

That's right.

[Steve]

Where he was literally touched by God. So, like, you see elements in this show of, like, what's going to be happening in the Christian era. Fascinating show. I'm really excited about this show. I don't want to tip my hand too much. I really feel like this is, like, one of the best shows we've talked. I guess I'm totally tipping my hand. You just tip your hands. And it's fascinating because we're going to talk a bit about the complete Budokan 1978 box set that's out this week and which I wrote about on uproxx.com if you guys want to go check that out. But it's interesting, like, how listening to this show colored my perceptions of the box set and the Bob Dylan at Budokan album and look like. I know you guys talked about, like, the Paris 1978 shows. There's been a lot of discussion, obviously, already about what happened after the budokan shows, this 1978 tour, which I think is like, an amazing tour in a lot of ways, and how it feels like it kind of comes together a little bit later on in the year and perhaps again, not trying to my hand, but perhaps it culminates with the Charlotte show that we're going to be talking about.

[Ian]

Perhaps.

[Steve]

But it's interesting, like, how Budokan, which I, you know, I love it on its own terms, but how once you dig into the bootlegs from 78 later on the year, it colors your perception a little bit about, like, about that album. And as. As radical as it is, you start to see, like, okay, maybe he's actually getting into it a little bit better later on in the year.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Ellen]

Yeah. It sort of feels like the. The Budokan comparison kind of feels like a really clear expression of what the band is doing on these. But this is like, where they really are going beyond just doing these interesting versions and starting to, like, gas it up. And it gets kind of. It does start to, like, almost feel like a premonition of the religious era with, like, the proselytizing and the fire and brimstone coming into the mood.

[Ian]

Yeah, I almost think that it's, you know, especially in this case with these two shows that we can kind of a B test, you know, here at the very end of 78. And obviously Budokan was, like, straight beginning of the year, basically. I think the stuff that we got or are getting on this complete Budokan set are from the February 28 and March 1, 1978 show. So those aren't the very, very first ones, but those are like the sixth and seventh ones of the year or something like that. Just like a week into taking this jalopy out on the road and, you know, the common wisdom, you know, the handed down wisdom that 78, you know, the later into the year you go, the better it gets. Makes sense. And I think you can really see that in a lot of cases on this record, especially with some of the songs that you get on the Charlotte bootleg where it's the same song. Right. I'm thinking of a couple in particular. Same song, but totally different interpretations, totally different arrangements. That both arrangements are totally different from the original arrangement. But he's totally just found a new way into it as the years go on.

[Steve]

It's going to be wild when we break this down because we actually have, like, the Budokan moment category.

[Ellen]

So, like.

[Steve]

Oh, yeah.

[Ellen]

I don't even know what we're going to do for that.

[Steve]

Like, we've named a category after this era, but it's like there's a Budokan moment inside of a Budokan moment.

[Ian]

Yes, I have that in my notes. Double Budokan moment.

[Steve]

Where. Yeah, like, where you have the radical rearrangement on the Budokan album. And then you get to the Charlotte show in 78 in December, and it's like, no, he's like, out Buddha conned himself.

[Ian]

It's a Buddha con of a Budokan. It's Buddha.

[Ellen]

We're gonna have to, like, figure out a way to even. I don't even know what the, like, triple or, like, the. The Buddha conception sound effect will be, but we're gonna have to figure out Something. Because Reverse Buddha Con is, of course, when a song that. What is the reverse Buddha?

[Ian]

I forget.

[Steve]

It was.

[Ellen]

When it's.

[Ian]

Someone in. Out there can tell us. I think we've only done that once.

[Ellen]

This is going to get complicated.

[Steve]

Yeah, this is like Budokan squared. I think there's, like, instances, like, where you hear the Budokan version. And then you're expecting it to be the same in the Charlotte show. And you're like, oh, wait a second. No, he's out Budokaning himself. Yes, in the Charlotte show. And it's amazing to behold. But before we do, do we want to do the weather?

[Ellen]

So we've got a high of 42. We've got a low of 27. Average daily temp 33.88. The historic average was 45.6. And 0.00 precipitation. The historic average usually 5.50.

[Ian]

Pretty cold. I didn't know it got that cold in Charlotte.

[Steve]

Yeah. I mean, well, you call it cold. I would call it dark heat myself. And I would say, yeah. He was on a journey through dark heat at this time.

[Ian]

Oh, man. Now you're making me wish. You know, talk about a song that isn't here. Wishing that showed up here in spirit.

[Ellen]

It's here in spirit. There is a song that sounds like it. I don't know if you clocked that, but there's a song that I thought would be Where Are you Tonight? But it's not. It just sounds like it.

[Ian]

Hmm. I don't know what you're referring to, but I am eager to discover.

[Ellen]

We'll get there.

[Ian]

We will get there. Before we do, though, we gotta unlock our mailbox.

[Bob]

And I will send a message to find out if she's talked, if that post office has been stolen. Not the mailbox is loud.

[Ian]

Pulling another listener question here. And I figured this was appropriate. Because, as one of you mentioned already, this was like, immediately. The Charlotte show was immediately in the aftermath of Bob beginning to find his Lord and savior, Jesus Christ, which took place supposedly in Tucson. You can actually see it on the 1978 tour dates. Right. That was November 19, 1978. That was a couple nights after someone had thrown a silver cross on stage at the San Diego date. And he fucking pulled it out of his pocket. Into which, by the way.

[Steve]

And like, you know, Ray Padgett. Can you track down the person in San Diego who.

[Ian]

That's great.

[Steve]

The crucifix at Bob Dylan. Like, that would be an amazing interview. We need to track this person down. This is like the John The Baptist of Bob Dylan. You know, like the person who converted Bob Dylan into being a born again Christian, putting him on the path. Amazing.

[Ian]

In the second expanded edition of Pledging My Time, Ray, we're going to expect you to have tracked this guy down and put him through the wringer.

[Steve]

Yeah. The next Pledging My Time should just be people who threw things at Bob Dylan and made an impact on him throughout his career.

[Ellen]

You got to get Weberman in the mix too.

[Ian]

Yeah, absolutely. Through some shit.

[Ellen]

He was someone who was, I guess, the closest thing to someone being thrown by Bob Dylan.

[Steve]

And you know, the person who yelled Judas at Bob Dylan. Get. Get that person in there who threw the glass.

[Ellen]

We gotta figure that shit out while we're at it.

[Steve]

Who threw the glass? Yeah, people just throwing things in the general vicinity of Bob Dylan. Whether it be physical objects or epithets or like whatever the case may be. Ray Padgett, if you're listening, we're assigning this is the next book for you to do. But anyway. Yeah, what's our letter here this week?

[Ian]

Get on the case, Ray. We're talking. It's another classic. Fuck Mary, Kill. This seems to be a favorite format of the listeners out there, but. So this was immediately following Bob's Christian reawakening. So we get to Fuck, marry, Kill, Slow Train Saved and Shot of Love.

[Ellen]

The Holy Trinity.

[Ian]

That's right.

[Steve]

Oh, my God.

[Ian]

Thanks to listener Cover me for the great question. I've got a pretty easy. I've got this down pad. I don't know if you guys are going back and forth on this, but.

[Steve]

I distrust you for having this down pad. Because I feel like, first of all, I'm offended, very sacrilegious, whoever asked this question. So I'm offended by it. But this is very difficult for me. I want to hear, I guess, what you have to say, Ian, because I'm kind of a little like. I'm lost in answering this question.

[Ian]

You're out there in the. Wandering the wilderness, looking for your own silver cross to be thrown and guide you to an answer.

[Steve]

I'm in the garden. I'm in the garden, if you will.

[Ian]

Absolutely. I mean, this is just based on where I'm at right now. And if I had been asked this question a year ago or two years ago, I would certainly have different. Different answers. But it's Mary, Shot of Love, no question. That is one of the all time great Bob Dylan records, top to bottom. Bob himself believes in it, so does Bono. As we've seen. It's Fuck Saved because Saved is just a fucking fire hot shot rock and roll record. And unfortunately, that means Slow Train. You gotta go. Bye. Bye.

[Ellen]

Well, I have a similar but different one, but you can just reverse Shot of Love and Saved. It's actually. Fuck. Shot of Love, Mary. Saved.

[Ian]

Wow.

[Ellen]

And kill Slow Train.

[Ian]

And kill Slow Train again. Wow.

[Ellen]

I think killing Slow Train is. I mean, is that.

[Ian]

He's amazing. We love Slow Train. What?

[Ellen]

What do you want one?

[Ian]

Gotta go.

[Ellen]

Stephen, are we all.

[Steve]

You know, I hate to say it, but I landed where Evan landed. I. Because I don't think you can. Fucking Saved.

[Ellen]

Because it's such a righteous. It's too.

[Steve]

Yeah. It's such a pious record. I would feel like the devil himself fucking Saved. I'll marry Saved. I'll fuck like Shot of Love. Because it's a. You know, it's a more sensuous record. You know, it would be more amenable to that kind of treatment.

[Ellen]

Part of mine.

[Steve]

I. I feel really bad about this treatment of. Of Slow Train. I mean, are we just underrating? Because, like, I would never kill Slow Train under any other.

[Ian]

Of course not.

[Ellen]

Can I speak to that question with kind of a comparison, I guess to me, Slow Train. The one thing about it that maybe makes it feel different than those other two is that Saved and Shot of Love, I think, are some of his most. Like, they seem really personal and really spontaneous from the heart and soul of Bob Dylan in the moment. Like, that's kind of what Shot of Love has going for it, that people like us really revere it for, is that it feels so, like, fun and loose and. And Bob himself seems to feel that way. And Saved also just feels like. So such a genuine outpouring of feeling like he couldn't help himself. He had to say it and scream it to the heavens. And that leaves Slow Train, which I think has great qualities. It's a very good record. It has a bit of a manicured outside hand in the mix, which makes it a really polished and an excellent record. But I think the other two just have this special spark of spontaneity that push it ahead by a little bit.

[Ian]

I'm looking at the Slow Train track listing and I'm already doubting myself. I mean, serve somebody precious Angel, I believe in you and Slow. And the title track, that's the first four songs. That's the first side. That's like kind of a perfect side of music. And then the second side, I think it drags in the middle for me. Change my way of thinking do right unto me, baby and when you gonna wake up? I think that's the trough there. But then it ends on Man Gave Names and when he returns, like two of my absolute favorites. This is. This is a fucking tough one, man.

[Ellen]

Well, it's a. It's a wrong question to ask. You're right. It's like the Holy Trinity. You can't like pick, you know, fuck the Holy Ghost and Mary. You have to have all three.

[Ian]

The question is Mary, Mary or Mary? Well, love saved and slow trained.

[Steve]

I do have to say I laugh to hear Evan roll very casually. Man Gave namesail the Animals and when he returns as like two of his, it's like you roll those two songs together.

[Ian]

You heard Ian say that.

[Ellen]

Ian said that.

[Steve]

Did I say Evan? Okay, I meant Ian. I'm still trying to.

[Ellen]

Ian loves Man Man.

[Ian]

I love Man Game Names.

[Steve]

I'm still trying to tell you two guys apart. It's. We're working on it. I'll get it. I'll get there by the end of the year.

[Ellen]

Very similar.

[Steve]

I love that you would just roll those two songs together. The song about God naming animals and this profound expression of like personal longing at the end of that record. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'll echo, like, what Evan just said. I do tend to side with the two albums out of this trinity that are like, not as polished, you know, and clearly like Slow Train Coming is the more professional record out of this three. And that just speaks, I guess, to our prejudices that we would maybe slight Slow Train Coming for that reason. Even though it's like the best selling record out of these three. I think most people would pick Slow Train Coming out of these three. It seems like the more logical one. Like you said, it has all of these classic songs, more so than the other two albums. But yeah, the sloppiness of the other two records is endearing certainly to me, and that's why I am with them. But you're right, you could make the argument it's like, do you want to marry the sloppy Joe out of the three or, you know, like, you think you'd want to marry like the upstanding one, the responsible one, that would be the natural choice for your mate. But I don't know, I guess I'm just drawn.

[Ian]

Sloppy Joe. The sloppy.

[Steve]

Sloppy Joe saved. You know, I'm like, what is a.

[Ellen]

Marriage if you're not, you know, you need that spark in the, in the, in the bedroom.

[Ian]

That's why Shot of Love is the pick for me, because that's a record I Just never get it, you know, I just want to never get. Never get tired of thinking about and considering and reconsidering and revisiting. It's. That is one that I will. I will. I will be chewing over until the end of my. Into my days.

[Ellen]

And it includes one of the. All mortal. Like a song that is as relevant to Bob Dylan now as ever.

[Ian]

I mean, the Property of Jesus.

[Steve]

I was gonna. I was gonna. I was gonna say Property of Jesus. Which banger?

[Ian]

Love. Love. Property of Jesus.

[Bob]

Present.

[Ian]

Great question. Cover me. Thank you for giving us a real devil's bargain of options to choose from.

[Steve]

That's a great question. But we need to stop fucking marrying and killing people. I think we need to move beyond this format. It's weighing on my soul here, so it could. We could get beyond that. Listeners.

[Ian]

Too many murders in the legacy here. Whether it's the Fuck Marry, Kill questions or that woman at the Italy show that Stephen wanted to shoot, she was screaming too much.

[Steve]

That one I don't feel bad about. I feel bad about all of the Bob Dylan albums I've killed. That's fair in the Fuck Marry, Kill scenario. So that's weighing on my conscious a little bit.

[Ian]

No more killing, folks. All right, 1978, here we go. I feel like we should, like, just talk about the Budokan box a little bit. Just like what it is, what it represents and kind of how crazy it is that it's coming out. Right. I think we learned after it was announced that this is really not. Not even the project of, like, Columbia Records or like the regular Bob Dylan camp, but rather, I think, like the Sony Japan division, right, who was putting this out as a huge mondo LP and CD set over there in Japan, specifically with every fucking thing imaginable and tons of beautiful booklets and art reproductions and stuff like that. And you can get some of that here in the States and digitally. Obviously it's going to be available, but it's not like. I think there's a reason it's not a bootleg series release, right? It's Bob Dylan the complete Budokan, 1978, and it's coming out in America. But it wasn't necessarily the same thing that Fragments was last year, right?

[Steve]

Yeah. And it's appropriate for this album because the original Bob Dylan at Budokan album was only intended to be released in Japan. It was like part of the stipulation for him playing these shows in Tokyo and Osaka was like 11 shows. His first excursion into Japan was that he would also put out this record that was exclusive to the Japanese market. And then, of course, it ended up being this, like, hugely popular import release. So what had been released in Japan. It was in August of 78 that it was released in Japan, ended up coming out in America. I believe it was April of 1979. So. And Bob Dylan has said that, like, he. It seems like he was. He had some regrets maybe about this being a big kind of wide release record because he said after the fact that he felt like this wasn't representative of the band that he was playing with during this time. It just ended up being that because it was recorded. I wonder to what degree that was colored by the polarized reaction to this record when it came out. I mean, it's fascinating with this album because I know for myself, like, when I first started, you know, reading about not just Bob Dylan, but just about music in general as a teenager in the early 90s, like, reading various music books, this not only was considered, like, the worst Bob Dylan record, it was considered, like, one of the worst, like, live records of all time. Like, I remember reading the Rolling Stone Record Guide, and they had this rating system where it was, like, one through five stars, and then below one star they had this, like, weird little black box. It was like a weird little black square that was reserved for, like, records that didn't even warrant one star.

[Ellen]

The punishment zone. Like, the solitary.

[Steve]

Like, yeah, it was like. And I believe, like, when you look in the book, they have, like, the rating system explained. And the way they explained it was if you got, like, a little black box, it was like, this record shouldn't even be released. Like, it's a worthless record. And that was the rating afforded to Bob Dylan at Budoka.

[Ellen]

Come on.

[Steve]

Come on. So, you know, I know for myself, I didn't listen to this record for the longest time because every book I read just talked about how terrible it was. And then at some point, that becomes sort of like a perverse endorsement of the album. And look, you guys know this better than anyone. Having the Jokerman mindset that sometimes the things that the previous generation dismisses ends up being the thing that is attractive to a younger generation. Because it's like, well, this can be ours. Because it's been dismissed by the older people. And Bob Dylan at Budokan, I think more than any other Bob Dylan album was, like, ready for that kind of acceptance. And, you know, I think that you can make a legitimate case for this album being, like, very interesting. And I think there's, like, some legitimate brilliant moments on It. I do think there's also some, like, moments I would not defend at all. Like, I. I'll say. I'll just throw this out there. I think the Maggie's Farm on the original At Buddha Con album, like, induces mania in my brain every time it's on. Like, that, that. That. That just goes forever. And, like, yeah, it's. It's terrible. But, you know, this box set is fascinating because there are moments on this box set, like, a lot of it is just repeating. It's like different versions of songs that are on the record. But there are songs that aren't on Budokan that I'm like, man, like, why didn't it make it? And I'll just say this right away. I think the masterpiece of the box set are the two versions of Girl from the North Country. And we'll talk about this because it's all. This also appears in the Charlotte show. But the version of that song on Budokan, I'm like, why didn't this make the record? Like, that is so beautiful. Like, basically just Bob and Alan Pasqua, the keyboardist on this tour, who I think is a real, for me, early Roman King contender.

[Ian]

Oh, yeah.

[Steve]

So beautiful. And it's an example of, like, a lesson, crazy reimagining of his songs. Like, it. It's a total revamping of the song, but it's appropriate and it works and it's brilliant. And it's like, oh, this should have been on the actual record. But, yeah, I don't know. I just think it's amazing that this box set exists because it shows, like, how the canon of Bob Dylan has been totally remade in the last, like, 10, 15 years. And you could.

[Ellen]

In the last three years.

[Steve]

Well, even like. Well, yeah, yeah, we'll give Jokerman some credit for that. But, you know, like, the. Just like the bootleg series records that have reconsidered his Christian era and reconsidered his 80s period and reconsidered that 69 to 71 self portrait era. And it just is like, oh, yeah, there's, like, all this music from that time that wasn't maybe spotlighted in the moment that recontextualizes how people look at that stuff. I don't think this Budokan box set is as dramatic as those other box sets. But if you're a fanatic like we are, there's still enough on there that makes it of interest to check out, I think.

[Ian]

Yeah, definitely. For me, the Budokan thing, like, there are two, like, statements about it that I can make that are like sort of competing and sort of at odds with one another. And the first is, it's fucking amazing that this Budokan box set exists. And like, I can't believe that. I can't believe I'm living in a world where that has happened. Especially after, you know, years and years of this being put upon as just the most heinous possible recording ever. When we did our initial episodes about this, I remember we talked at length about the AllMusic review about this record, which. That was for me, Stephen, exactly what the Rolling Stone Guide review was to you. Like, I always. This was always just sitting there in the middle of the Bob Dylan discography with like a one star or two star ranking or something in all music. And I was like, I'm never going to touch it. Can't be worth listening to. And then as soon as I finally actually started listening to it, I was like, holy shit, this is everything that I wanted out of a Bob Dylan record. I can't believe anyone would ever say this is shit. So it's incredible that it exists. And at the same time, there are a couple incredible songs that we're getting first kind of glimpses at here, especially in this hi Fi, it sounds great kind of quality. It's not like a revelatory document, I would say. Right. Because it's really. It's 60 songs long. It's two shows. The shows are almost identical from top to bottom. And most of both shows are what we have already had on the initial Budokan double LP release, which, I mean, that wasn't a short record by any means. It was 20, 25 songs, something like that. So a lot of this is stuff that we have seen before and the couple songs that we haven't seen before, again in this high five. Beautiful quality here. Totally make it worth it. But it isn't completely rewriting the story here the way that Another Self Portrait did or the way that Trouble no More did, I think.

[Ellen]

But that's also. In a world where we are so familiar with the. With the general vibe and feeling of the Budokan era. Like, I. I can't imagine hearing this for the first time. I mean, it. Once you know what is on the Live at Budokan record, this isn't going to blow your mind, but it is nice that it exists.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Ellen]

So, I mean, there is no replacement for the first time you hear Maggie's Farm done that way, that is, or any of them. But it does have. I mean, it is revelatory in the sense like what you mentioned about Grow from the north country, Stephen. I mean, that. That is one of these things that makes this, like, really a joy to have. Because especially the softer side of this era is something that I find really interesting anyway, personally. And I think it's like the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. Because the harder side of this era can be, like, totally grating. If you aren't, like, approaching it with a sense of humor. But there are attempts at beauty also in this moment that I think are beautiful in ways that never happened before this and never happen again after.

[Ian]

It certainly never happen again after it.

[Steve]

When I would say, too, like. Another thing that comes out in this box set are songs that. If you're going to armchair psychiatrist Bob Dylan. You might say we're speaking to his state of mind. There's songs like I Threw It All Away or the man and Me or Tomorrow Is a Long Time. These heartfelt laments that feel like they're expressions of a guy who is. You know, he's just gone through a divorce and now he's on this tour. And we should say, like, just to give context for this tour. It was, like, a very long tour for Bob Dylan. Begins in February of 1978. It ends in December. He plays 114 shows. It is described essentially, as, like, the Alimony Tour. Because he's just split from Sarah Dylan. He's just had this big financial rune with Ronaldo and Clara. There's a perception that he has to make a lot of money on this tour to make himself whole. And just the fascinating paradox of this tour. That he is playing the most obvious set list that you could imagine Bob Dylan playing in the least obvious manner possible. Like, it's every greatest hit, every oldie. I mean, there's the story about him playing those initial stories in Japan, those initial shows in Japan. And, like, how the promoter essentially told him what songs to play. Because they wanted to ensure that he'd be doing, like, all of the familiar oldies for these Japanese audiences. And he did that. He's giving the people the songs that they want. But, like, not in the straightforward fashion, you know, because he's Bob Dylan. He has to, like, transform these songs. And it's worth noting, too, that, you know, we're used to Bob Dylan now reinterpreting his material. Playing songs that you think you know. But when you hear them live, they're totally transformed. I feel like this tour is, like, really the beginning of that. Clearly, there's instances in the past where he's, like, playing an acoustic song with an electric band. Or he might, like, play something faster than you might be familiar with or something slower. But these wholesale reinterpretations. I don't think there's anything in his career before this tour that, like, is really preparing people for what he's gonna be doing in these. Certainly, like, on this Budokan album and then on the tour they did in 78. And then, of course, by the time you get to the Neverending Tour, it's something that. It just becomes standard that he's gonna be doing. But I don't know, I think in terms of, like, him as a live performer, it's really interesting to, like, look at him, what he's doing on this. On this tour, as really kind of being the beginning of something for him. And I. I mean, I'm trying to think of, like, other artists of his generation. I don't think that there's, like, another example of someone remaking their most famous songs as dramatically as, like, what Bob Dylan was doing here. It's totally unprecedented.

[Ellen]

I. When you say, like, it's the beginning of him doing that, I. And there's. There's just two ways of viewing it, which are like, is he doing it because he wants to give the audience something different? That's one way to interpret it. But I think the. The other interpretation is he begins to need it to be different for him to do it. Like, he feels like, I can't do this unless I change it up. And I think that seems to be. That's more what I take to be probably something closer to the truth. Like, I think he needs. He finds he needs to, like, make it. Renew it for himself. Because it's not like. Because he could renew it way less often and people would still be, like, stoked to hear how much she changes it. But the frequency and extent to which he does that and will continue to makes it seem like a sort of a personal thing. Like, he's got to change something so he can even do it.

[Steve]

Yeah, I definitely think it's a personal thing. I also think there's something going on with him in 78. And I think this explains the hostility that his original, like, boomer fans had toward this album, which is that Bob Dylan isn't treating his songs with the same sort of ponderous seriousness that his audience does. Yeah, definitely not. Not that he doesn't take his work seriously, but this was him showing that, like, I am willing to take my songs out of their original context and put them in a different area and be kind of Playful with my material. And I think there was something in his original audience that was very offended by that because it's like you have to. It's like you have to treat these songs like they're religious texts. And you have to deliver them with, like, straight face seriousness. And if you don't do that, it's wrong. And I think that's like a crucial difference between, like, how his original audience hears Bob Dylan and how maybe people like us hear him, because we're. We're an audience that likes the playful side of Bob Dylan and there's a different audience that doesn't like that at all.

[Ian]

Right.

[Steve]

And some of them are baby boomers and some of them are like our British people.

[Ian]

Yes. This is what we said. This is exactly what we've said about the Brit crits. All the entire fucking time. They are angry. And you see this at the very beginning, like in Don't Look Back when they're interviewing kids out there.

[Ellen]

It's different than before.

[Ian]

They hold it against him that he is not living up to their expectations. This mythical image they've built up for him in their minds. And obviously, you know, we're painting with a broad brush here, folks out there, you know, on those cursed. We think you're all right for the most part.

[Ellen]

Great Brits, great British fans of Bob Dylan.

[Ian]

Yes. But, yeah, that's the. That's the problem.

[Steve]

There's certainly, yeah, like a strain of Bob Dylan listener that totally resists that side of him. And you're right. Like, it maybe doesn't begin in 78, it begins in 66. It begins with him, you know, going, yeah, or even before that, maybe. I don't know. But like, him saying, like, it isn't. This isn't like, you know, the Bible here. This isn't like religious texts. This is something that you. It's malleable, you can play with it. It's. It's something that can be fun. It could be fun.

[Ellen]

I think that there's a thing that. I mean, that there's a really interesting point here which I think goes to, like, the heart of what it means to be a fan of Bob Dylan. And like, that schism between, like, having the Jokerman mindset or not, I guess, is that thing of, like, wanting him to be serious because you view it as, like, he. When he first spoke to you, it was like the world seemed very scary and confusing and he seemed so certain about what was going on in it. And it felt like, wow, finally someone's speaking for me and for Us young people who know how crazy and bad everything is. And then I think he lives long enough to. To realize that, like, he's. He's like, living a life that. And living things that are kind of unpleasant at times and seeing so much unpleasantness and misery and realizing that he wants to be able to bring just joyful music or happy things to what he does. Like the people who he grew up liking, you know, so much of. He loves, like, Little Richard. And he. He talks about Elvis. And it's like, the reason why he was so moved by them, I think, is because this was, like, the serious young man who wrote these serious songs. But he. He knew very early that things were kind of scary and dark in the world, and he developed a taste for happy, joyful music much earlier than maybe a lot of his earliest fans would. Do you think there's anything there? I mean, I feel like.

[Steve]

Well, I think there's also. Yeah, I mean, I think there's that. And I also think that just if you are going to be really pious about your own material, it is more likely to be locked in one place, whereas if you're someone who is going to play with your own material, it's more likely to grow and change and. And it's just fascinating to see this tour where he was transforming his songs and, like, how that transformation continued to happen. And you get to the Charlotte show, which is a very famous bootleg, and we should shout out our friend Bob.

[Ian]

Notes, James Adams. Shout out.

[Steve]

Shout out to James Adams, who. We hung out with him in Milwaukee. That's right after, I think, the second show there. And he wrote a post for Aquarium Drunkard recently about the show that we're talking about Today, the Charlotte 78 show. And, like, how the conversation about whether Dylan got better as the year went on is based in large part on this show because it was such a wildly bootleg show. And people listened to Charlotte 78 and they compared it to Budokan, and they felt like Charlotte78 was just so much better. Like it was a version of what he's doing on Budokan, but it feels so much better. I don't know if it's entirely because of this bootleg. I mean, I know, like, Dylan himself, again, like I said this earlier, how he's talked about Budokan, feeling like it wasn't fully representative of what he was doing at this time. So I think it comes from that as well. But, like, as we get into the show, and maybe we'll get talking about it here in a Second, I had that same reaction. Like I was listening to this Charlotte 78 show and I was like, my God, this has all the elements I love from Budokan, but it's just better refined.

[Ian]

Yes.

[Steve]

And a better set list.

[Ian]

The one thing I wanted to highlight on that note and what I think is significant to think about is just like, literally like the temporal nature of this year. Just like where he was at time wise, throughout 1978. Because 1978, the Budokan shows took place early 78. Right. Like February, March. 78. He doesn't. He doesn't cut street legal until April 78, after the Japan leg is over.

[Steve]

In like four days.

[Ian]

In like a week. Exactly. Like a fucking week. That entire record is just knocked out.

[Steve]

Because it's like we have some time between legs of the tour, so we'll just knock it out like in this big room that's not designed to be.

[Ian]

To be recording a recording studio. Exactly. Which sounds like shit.

[Steve]

Well, at least initially. I mean, I feel like after that 99 remix.

[Ian]

Yeah. That. That completely tuned it up and cleaned it up. But yeah, like, if you're. If you're buying a vinyl used copy, it's going to sound like shit.

[Steve]

I got to say, the cassette copy that I have, Columbia Records, pretty good. I think it sounds damn good. I don't. I've never really bought into the thing that this album Street Legal sounds like shit. I mean, Street Legal is one of my favorite Bob Dylan records. So, like, I. I don't know. I just don't subscribe to that. But I'm not an audiophile. I'm listening to tapes on $30 boombox in my office, so. And I think it sounds amazing. I think it's the best sounding Bob Dylan music I've heard. But, you know, take that with a grain of salt.

[Ian]

A grain of sand. Anyways, Street Legal is not cut until April, and it doesn't hit the shelves until June, which it's crazy that it was cut. The last day of recording was May 1, and it was in stores ready to buy six weeks later, June 15. That's what a world we used to live in. So I don't think Bob had really figured out what he was doing artistically at this moment in time. In budokan, the early 70s tour, you only get the one. I think you only get the one Street Legal song on that entire set, even the expanded one is yous Love in Vain. And then by the time you get to the Charlotte show, which we will talk about, I'm sure In the pretty good stuff section. The Street Legal tracks that he's playing there are extraordinary and are totally. That none of them were being played earlier on in the year. So not only, I think, did it take him time to whip the band into shape. Just as fucking just playing show after show and getting some reps under their belt. I think he also needed to crack. Like, what was I doing? Where am I at as an artist at this moment in time? And I think a lot of that energy informs maybe the different differing, evolving arrangements that you end up seeing towards the end of the year in 1978.

[Steve]

Yeah, I mean, and it reminds me of the tour 74 with the band, like, where he really wasn't playing Planet Waves material all that frequently. And it's interesting how you have these two, I think, much more famous tours before the 78 tour. You have tour 74 and you have the Rolling Thunder tours of 75 and 76. And obviously Rolling Thunder, he's playing a lot of new songs in that period. But even Rolling Thunder conceptually is looking back to the 60s. It's this idea of, like, recreating, like, what was happening in Greenwich Village in the folk scene in the early 60s. And getting all these old folkies together for like a jamboree type traveling show. And obviously touring with the band is another sort of like reflexive type thing. And that's clearly like a greatest hits tour that he's doing at that time. And there's a greatest hits element to the 78 thing. But it still feels more progressive in a lot of ways than what he was doing on the previous two tours, which I love. Obviously Rolling Thunder is like one of the great Bob Dylan tours of all time. But it does feel like the 78 Tour, in a lot of ways is more forward looking. Even though he's doing all these older songs. And even though he is in a transitional moment. I mean, another thing that happens on this tour is that he turns 37 years old. Which is like old as shit for a rock star in 1978, you know. And, you know, there were the way people were writing about him at the time. This was the beginning of people talking about being like Bob Dylan being washed up. Which seems crazy to us now because he was in the midst of this just getting started. And he's. You know, he just made Blood on the tracks and Desire and he's making Street Legal and he's going into this Christian period. He's writing just tons of songs. But, you know, he's sort of locked into the 60s thing in the minds of his audience.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And just trying to break out of that. So it's so fascinating and, and yeah, I don't know, this Charlotte show, it, it really, I think even more than Budokan, it's. It's such a successful example of him playing old songs but in a completely new way. And then integrating, like you said, the Street Legal material. It. I don't know, it's breathtaking.

[Ian]

It's got it all, folks.

[Steve]

I'm tipping my hand like crazy here.

[Ellen]

Your hands been tipped.

[Steve]

I might as well just. I feel like I should already give my star rating. I feel like it's very obvious, but.

[Ian]

I think we know what direction you're heading.

[Steve]

I can't help myself.

[Ian]

Well, you don't need to wait much longer. Let's. Let's take, let's take a dipsy. Take a look at the Charlotte Coliseum here on December 10, 1978. We didn't call it the band yet, by the way. And we gotta do it because boy is this a fucking band. Big, big crew of players up there on the stage. You got Bob Dylan, you got Billy Cross on the guitar. You got Alan Pasqua, who you mentioned already, Steven on the keys, Stephen Soules on the guitar, David Mansfield on the violin and the mandolin. Steve Douglas on the horns, Jerry Sheff on the bass, Bobby hall on percussion, Ian Wallace on drums and Helena Springs, Joanne Harris and one Ms. Carolyn Dennis on macking vocals. That's a fucking big ass band. Bob had never done anything like this. 11 people, that number of people on stage with him.

[Steve]

Well, like Rolling Thunder had a big band.

[Ian]

I guess that Rolling Thunder had a lot of people on stage with him obviously, but just the kind of the breadth of the sound. You didn't have all of the horns and the multiple percussionists and the backing vocals and the keys and the mandal like this. This is really about as indulgent, I think as Bob ever gets as a like live performer.

[Steve]

Yeah, like at one point, I can't remember if it's in this show or on the box set, but he introduces the band as saying like, you know, let's meet the orchestra. First of them as the orchestra. And it is like a, it is an orchestra. It's like a Phil Spector type, you know, Bruce Springsteen or like Elvis Presley, you know, like 70s era type. Just huge band, very expansive.

[Ian]

Bob Dylan and the Positively 4th Street Band. Watch. Hour.

[Steve]

Watch.

[Ian]

Yes, it sure is.

[Ellen]

Here they have one.

[Ian]

And he's being a bit of a ham about it when. When introducing the song.

[Steve]

Yes, Yeah, I mean, the Bob Talk segment of this episode, which.

[Ian]

That's gonna be the whole thing.

[Steve]

It's often very scant, but in this episode, tons of Bob Talk also got a shout out David Mansfield, who, you know, he has been in many different iterations. He was in the Rolling Thunder Band. He ended up being in Bruce Hornsby in the range. Later on in the 80s, he's in heaven's Gate, the great Michael Cimino film. He did the score for that. A huge CV for David Mansfield. This is one but one stop in his career. But yeah, on the all along the Watchtower, he's the one doing the Hendrix type guitar fireworks, but playing it on violin.

[Ian]

Yes. Yeah, it's. It's a fun Watchtower. You know, it's somehow like kind of one of the less fucked up versions. Both the Charlotte version and the Budokan version, which makes an appearance on the box set as well, is pretty radically different. Right? But compared to some of the other like really radically different reworkings, like, it almost sounds kind of like a pretty straight and faithful interpretation because it just doesn't go completely off the deep end.

[Steve]

Yes, exactly.

[Ian]

But it's Watchtower. We don't need to dally on that anymore. Pretty good stuff.

[Bob]

Pretty good stuff.

[Ian]

Anyone got candidates here for Charlotte?

[Ellen]

I just need to say something about the It's All Right Ma here because it's like that crazy hammed up version of It's All Right Ma. But even if that's not your thing, even if you really don't like that, I feel like the consummate showmanship of this pushes it into like.

[Ian]

I.

[Ellen]

You can't say it's. That it's good music. It's pretty good stuff because it's like so completely blown out into the stratosphere with such commitment and pizzazz that I don't even. I guess I'm saying I don't love this version of this song, like this arrangement. But by the time it was done, I was like, well, God damn. I have nothing to say against it. He really sold me.

[Ian]

It's pretty hard. I mean, I think a lot of the reputation of the Budokan stuff is that it's kind of corny and language and big band, you know, retro, you know, not. Not particularly rock rockin. The way that. Especially the way that he's gonna start playing shows in like 79, 80. On the Christian stuff. It's alright Ma on the Charlotte show rocks. Like the guitar is sharp and loud and heavy. You do still have a bunch of that Fuckin you know, other shit going on behind the scenes. But this sounds like a rock band. I think it's a big rock band. There's a lot happening, but it's. It's a rock band nonetheless.

[Ellen]

It comes down though to his vocal like being really committed because like the band could be like rock and. And it could sound like hard and heavy. But I think it's the vocal here that really makes. He sounds like really in it. And that's what makes me feel like okay. I. It's like really. I gotta hand it to him.

[Steve]

He said the arrangement of this song on this tour and I. I feel like the arrangement in this show is pretty similar to the one on Budokan. I was like trying to figure out like what 70s rock song does this remind me of? Because it kept tripping me up. Like this reminds me of something and I realized that it's Rock and Roll. Hoochie Coo by Rick Derringer. I don't know if you guys know that song. It's on the days to confuse soundtrack.

[Ian]

That's a no for.

[Steve]

Rock and Roll. Hoochie Coo Rock. And you don't know that song.

[Ian]

I might recognize it if I heard the song. The Steven Haydn through zoom version is not. Is not judging it out from my memory.

[Steve]

The riff, the riff from that song is very similar to like the recurring riff in the arrangement of It's All Right Mom.

[Ian]

It's All Right mom here.

[Steve]

So I love that he's pulling from Rick Derringer. Possibly Rick Derringer, who I also believe ended up being a born again Christian. If I can. I'll just kind of throw this out there. Rick Derringer 2. I also believe he played with Steely dan in the 70s. I think he was like a guitar player. One of those things is true and they may both be true that he's a born again Christian and also play with Steely Dan. But I know for a fact he sings the song Rock and Roll Hoochie Coo. Can I just say, like for me, at the top of pretty good stuff is Senor yes, yes. Which I think the performance here is a masterpiece all time with the great rap that Dylan does at the beginning.

[Ian]

He's out of his mind. He's out of his fucking mind.

[Ellen]

I have the whole thing, I think right here.

[Ian]

We'll just drop. We gotta drop a clip. Cause just Bob's delivery of this is incredible.

[Bob]

I was riding on a train one time from Durango, Mexico to San Diego. I fell asleep on a train and Woke up in this town called Monterey. And I guess it was about past midnight, not too much after midnight, but just maybe around that time. And a family was getting off the train. And old man was stepping up on the platform to get up on the train. And he came down the aisle and took his seat across the aisle from me many times. The train was still in the station. Anyway, I was watching this whole thing through the window, which was turned into a long mirror. And finally I felt a strange vibration. I just had to turn and look at this man. He wasn't wearing anything but a blanket. So I turned my head to look at him. Both his eyes were on fire. I could easily see that there was smoke coming out of his nostrils. I figured this was the man. I had to talk to him. So I turned back, looking out the mirror again, trying to gather up the curves to talk to him. And I train started moving there. You conversation went something like this way before.

[Steve]

And it reminds me of. And I don't know if this is a deliberate influence for him at this time, but it reminds me of like Bruce Springsteen, who was. He's on the Darkness on the Edge of Town tour at the same time as Bob. I believe they were about the same length of time. Bob's tour is 114 shows. I think Bruce's tour is 100 some shows. But Bruce would do this thing, like, where he would tell stories before songs and there would be often Roy Bitten playing piano underneath him as he's talking. And Alan Pasqua is such a presence in these shows. And his piano underscoring Bob as he's telling that story before they kick into the song, I think is like. It so reminds me of, like, Springsteen. But Bob clearly is his own man and it totally works for that song. And I. I think I texted this to you guys as I was listening to this version that I'm like, I already love Senor, but I'm like, listening to this version makes me feel like this is like a top 10 Bob Dylan song for me. Like, the live versions of this song are always so good. I love the Jerry Garcia version of this song. I feel like Bob has not played this song very often. Like, he did it obviously on this tour, but. And we did a show, one of the El rey shows from 97. And I don't know if we talked about a show where he did Senor, if that was on the mix that I made that we posted on our Patreon. I know he played Senior at one of those El ratios. It's so remarkable. I feel like this is the best Dylan Live Signor I've ever heard. It just blows me away. So that for me is number one with a bullet from this show.

[Ian]

Yeah, I'm absolutely with you. It's incredible. I mean, I've done the entire fucking story of me talking into the computer about Bob Dylan over the last however long has been a story of me deciding that everything I said in the past was completely wrong. And that is continuing up until this day. And I don't think I was ever more wrong about anything than Signor, which initially was like the one song on Street Legal that I was like, man, this is a drag. It's bringing it down in the middle of this record. What is this doing here? And now it's like, that is top, top, top tier to me.

[Steve]

Such an epic.

[Ian]

It's incredible. It's fantastic.

[Steve]

Especially like when he's playing it live with this huge band. It's like, this is the treatment this song deserves. Deserves. I love the studio version, but I. I would say, like the Street Legal version can't hold a candle to this live version. This is like, oh, you need 11 people on stage to bring this song to its proper level of epicness, you know, and it totally.

[Ian]

The horns and the backing vocals and the delivery from Bob. It's just so much going on here. It's like. It's like its own little mini opera, mini orchestra performance or something here.

[Ellen]

Jerry knows how epic the song is and can be. I feel like whenever Jerry Garcia does it, he's tapping into that.

[Steve]

Oh, he owns the song.

[Ellen]

I wonder when. When did he first play it?

[Ian]

Oh, Jerry, I don't. Steven. Steven would be the one to.

[Steve]

I don't know when he like debuted, but like, I mean, it was really like late 80s Jerry.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Steve]

I think was like prime senior era. And then there's that self titled Jerry Garcia Band live record where that might be the defining version of that song.

[Ellen]

Yeah. But, yeah, it is a real. It is an epic. It's just like. And it is a. It is kind of a dirge in a way, but it's. It requires like a big band to take it out of feeling like a slow song and make it feel like a weighty song.

[Steve]

1. And again, I'll just shout out Alan Pasqua. I think that his piano playing and his organ playing are so brilliant in the show. And it just makes me want to reiterate something I say about the Neverending Tour. Like, I always wish that there was a keyboard player on a lot of these shows as Much as I love, you know, the Never Ending tour bands, it's like when I hear Bob backed by a piano player who's as gifted as Alan Pasqua, I'm just like, oh, like, why couldn't you have a keyboardist? Like, this is such an integral part of your sound. And just to continue the Alan Pasquale love, I've already shouted out Girl from the north country on the box set. The version here is so beautiful. Like, on the. On the Budokan box set, it's more of, like an organy kind of keyboardy background. Here it's just Pasquale playing piano behind Bob. Totally beautiful. Love it. Brilliant. The Tangled up in Blue.

[Ian]

Yes. The Tangled.

[Steve]

Oh, my God, it's so good. And it's. It's more similar to how Girl from the north country is on the box set, where it is more of, like, a more ethereal kind of organ backing with Bob. And it's fascinating to hear what Bob is doing lyrically because he changes some lyrics in the middle of the song instead of open up a book of.

[Ian]

Poems and handed it to me written.

[Steve]

By an Italian poet from the 13th century instead of that. And she opened up the Bible.

[Ian]

Yep.

[Steve]

And she started quoting it to me.

[Ian]

Quoting it to me.

[Steve]

Jeremiah, chapter 17 from verses 21 and 33. Now, I actually looked this up.

[Ian]

Did you pull the verses?

[Steve]

I did. Verse 21 talks about essentially honoring the Sabbath day.

[Ian]

Okay, well.

[Steve]

Which doesn't seem like a super relevant thing to the song in terms of, like, a literal meaning to it. In terms of verse 33. There is no verse 33. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. He was just writing it for how it sounded. But again, as we mentioned earlier, Bob had already had his moment with Jesus in the Tucson hotel room or motel room. It's probably a motel.

[Ian]

Yeah, 78. It was a motel.

[Steve]

So you. This is another example of that influence filtering into this show. Like a little shout out to the Bible in the middle of Tangled up in Blue.

[Ian]

Yeah, absolutely. That is the clearest indication, I think, of where he's at, personally. Like that line right there. And I mean, he had already, in fact, written, started writing and almost completed some of the songs that were going to be on Slow Train. Do Write to Me Baby. In fact, it's going to be debuted like, six days after this, like, the last date of this 78 tour. He's playing that in the last date with this band. So he's already kind of like when he's withdrawing from the stage into the hotel room every night. That's where his Mind is at. That's what he's writing about. And you see that very clearly in the lyrical change on Tangled. This is like maybe my all time favorite version of Tangled up and Blue. I just, like, really, it's phenomenal.

[Ellen]

Oh, my God, there's like 100,000.

[Ian]

I know, I know. And I'm sure I'll hear another version of Tangled next week and decide that that's my all time favorite version of Tangled. But, like, this just. This brings out so many different colors and feelings in this song that are so, so absent from all the other versions. Like, obviously, this is a song that we've talked about. He's always fucking with, always changing the lyrics, the tempo, whatever. But like this one completely chopped and screwed and slowed down. And it's just him and Pasqua with that organ and. And the horns, man, the fucking horns just blowing. It's a totally different kind of thing. I don't feel like he's ever believed in this song and believed in himself singing this song more than this. Like this 8 minute tape this night in Charlotte. It's like this is what this song was always supposed to be, I think. And he was only able to kind of scratch the surface on it with Blood on the tracks. And I think that actually explains a lot of why it's one, you know, that he has constantly reinvented is because he has always been searching for the true heart of this song. And, you know, obviously he doesn't think that he found it here in 1978, but to me, like, this is. This is what I'm thinking of when I. When I think Tangled, like from here on out.

[Bob]

Wondering if she changed it out if her hand was still ready and I was standing on the sand free Coming on my shoes Heading out ready to play something.

[Ian]

It sounds like something out of a, you know, movie.

[Steve]

And I think it speaks to. And I think one of you guys mentioned this, just his vocal commitment in this show. And that's. That's another departure point I would. I would make between this and the Buddha shows. I think that his vocals here are generally just better than they were early in the tour. Just more committed. He's like, more. He's taking more chances. I think vocally, he's stretching words out. It feels more impassioned, which is amazing because he's. At the end of this exhaustive tour, you think that he'd be worn out, but it really feels like vocally he's reached a new level of strength at this time. And I'm gonna shout out another Song that was performed a lot on this tour and was never recorded. And that's Am I your stepchild?

[Ellen]

Am I your Stepchild? Which is a song that I did not know existed. I have to admit. I didn't know there was a Bob Dylan song called Am I your Stepchild.

[Steve]

I was aware of this song because it's been compiled on, like, various compilations of unreleased Bob Dylan songs. Like, this is a song that he performed, I believe, something like 50 times on this tour and never recorded. And it's another song that feels like a transition between Street Legal and slow train coming.

[Ian]

The Christian shit. Yeah.

[Steve]

Yeah, there is. There is a kind of a bluesy gospel thing going on with this song. And I mean, it's interesting with this tour because according to Clinton Halen's various books, which I was reading getting ready for this episode, he writes about how in the rehearsals for this tour, Dylan was doing, like, a lot of blues songs. And he was, like, really into, like, old blues stuff, which you can see pop up at the beginning of each show. Yeah, like on the box that he does, like, repossession blues and, like, love with a Feeling. And then in this show, he does, like the Tampa Red song She's love crazy. She's love crazy. And that's really the only, like, manifestation of that that you get. You're not getting, like, a lot of blues. You're getting, like this very sort of lush, polished, soft rock type sound. But you see that seeping in, I think, more toward the end of this tour. And of course, you know, that's going to be more prominent as it gets into the. The. The Christian era. But, yeah, I mean, I feel like we have to shout out am I your stepchild? Because that's such a fixture of this tour and only of this tour. Yeah, he never got this into a recording stud.

[Ian]

Deep cut. Deep, deep.

[Ellen]

He would only perform it four more times after this, I think. Ever.

[Ian]

Yeah, unfortunately, from what I understand, at least. And James mentions this in that piece that he put up on Aquarium Drunkard the other day. Most of the 78 soundboards, the later 78 soundboard recordings, the kind of things that make up a lot of the shit that went into the Trouble. No more box set. The 78 versions of those have been wiped for the most part. Because, you know, am I your stepchild? If there was a nice clean soundboard recording of that, that seems like tailor made for inclusion on a bootleg series release. But it's about as good as we're going to get, which on that note, Just audio quality on this, like, not quite up to the standards of, like, Neverending Tour era kind of stuff. You know, this was a 78 show, so whoever was taping this was tape literally taping this. You're not on a digital box by any means, but it sounds not that bad, I think, all things considered. It's certainly not as glossy and clean as the Budokan Bot set, but I was pretty impressed with the overall quality. I think the louder you listen to this bootleg, the better it gets.

[Steve]

Well, it's funny because I was corresponding a little bit with Benny Boy, legendary fixture on the Expecting Rain message board, before this episode, because I was like, have you, like, remastered or remixed, like any fall 78 shows? Because, you know, we're doing the Charlotte 78, and it's great and I want to dig in deeper. And he actually did do a show from Los Angeles. Yeah, November 15, 1978, which has a very similar set list to this show. I don't think it's quite as good, but it was interesting because he's not really a fan of 78. He said in our exchange, so. And if you're listening, Benny Boy, I hope it's okay that I'm outing you as, like, not a huge 78. I don't know.

[Ian]

Shame, shame.

[Steve]

I'm not like, you know, revealing state secrets here. But, yeah, I don't know, it's. It's such a great era. Obviously, again, like, you guys talked about Paris 78 on Joker Men. People can go listen to that. That's a very famous show from this year. But, yeah, I don't know, the performance is so good that it transcends the sound quality.

[Ian]

Oh, yeah, definitely. And it sounds, you know, totally acceptable, I think, quality wise, you know, you can't turn your nose up in any of this shit. I also got a shout out while we're hearing pretty good stuff, the other Street Legal cuts that we got here beside Signor, which was incredible, but we Better Talk this Over, makes a fantastic appearance towards the end of this set. And of course, it ends on the Big Banger. The fucking firework moment, Changing of the Guards, which is like. It's an ecstatic vision to me, the way that that song is performed in particular here. I think I've listened to that Benny Boy remastered the Forum show from November, and I think that Guards, like, kind of. Bob reaches another gear on that that he doesn't quite hit here in Charlotte a couple weeks later, but it's still just extraordinary. Just stretched out, stampeding long as hell. Everyone's blasting off here at the very end before the show wraps up. It's like that song could have been right up there with all of the other fucking greats with your Desolation Rose and your, like a Rolling Stones and your Tangled Up In Blues and Idiot Winds and stuff. And he just, for whatever reason, like, this was, this was one of the last performances it ever got because it hasn't been brought out ever again after the 78 tour.

[Steve]

That's weird to me.

[Ian]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ellen]

It's such an obvious standout on that record. I mean, and this, this version, I, I do have to say it's just so, it's, I, I, I think his vocals are so good on it. I mean, the, there's just like a really great command of, of his phrasing and yet it's really energetic and he feels like really, with each phrase, which, with each lyric, like, like a lot of intention. He's not just kind of yelping them out, but it's also like really fast. I, I can't. Yeah, it's, it'd be hard to find a better live version of Changing of the Guards, except. Is that one you're referring to, that one that feels like so cracked out that it's like unbelievable?

[Ian]

Yeah, I think so. It's, it's. We've, we've like played it and texted it about it and posted on Twitter before and stuff.

[Ellen]

There's one that's like, it feels like. It's crazy how like, aggressive it is. I think that's the one I'm thinking of.

[Ian]

But it sounds like he's exploding on stage. But this one gets pretty close to that.

[Ellen]

Yeah. And it's, it stays. I think it doesn't scare the hose, so to speak.

[Ian]

Sure.

[Ellen]

But it, you know, it, it, it's a, it's amazing that he does this at the end too, after having done that. It's All Right Ma and then Forever Young, which, like, I really, you'd think that that's it. And no, he's still got this in him.

[Ian]

That's what I find it's so admirable about. This is like on this, on this kind of set list that like you would assume. Right. Like, this is a greatest hits set list in many, in many regards. You're gonna end on a greatest hit. You're gonna end on It's Alright Ma or Forever Young or Times or Blowin or whatever. And he does pack a lot of that shit in towards the end of this set. But he's gonna say like the very best for last. At this moment in time, he is his latest, newest shit. And that's like. I don't know, man. He's just done a complete 180 on all of this Street Legal stuff, honestly, except for Senor really, which has gotten played a few hundred times. And he played in the 90s and early 2000s. He hasn't touched it in a decade plus at this point. But there's just something about this record that he. I would imagine it's got to be tied up. Not to psychoanalyze, but I think he just wasn't in a great place mentally this year. And so this being the music that came out this year might just be difficult or distasteful for him to revisit.

[Steve]

Well, and it's like for the average Dylan fan, I think this is still a record that is in the background.

[Ian]

Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Steve]

If you're into the hits, this isn't like a hit slate album. So for the masses, they're not gonna love Street Legal stuff. Whereas people like us are just like, dig out new pony, man. We want pony. And an encore. I love that. Like you guys were saying that he did Changing of the Guards at the end. And again, just to contrast it with the Budokan shows, I believe he end those shows with the times they are changing.

[Ian]

Exactly.

[Steve]

So it's an obvious contrast there. Can I just say too, like you mentioned, we better talk this over. I love. We better talk this over into Masters of War. I love that as like the transition there. Just a brilliant pairing there, Bob. Love it.

[Ian]

Making comments a little bit, perhaps.

[Ellen]

Are we still on pretty good stuff for we into. Can we do O Mercy?

[Steve]

Yeah, I think. I think we're ready for O Mercy.

[Ian]

Yeah, why not? There's couple other songs that I want to hit, certainly to call out, but I think we can save them for the. The Buddha Con on Budokan. Buddha Con squared moment. But yeah. What isn't working? Or Mercy. Mercy.

[Ellen]

I just want to say it's just as we fell right into it here. I don't really care for Masters of War here that much.

[Ian]

Yeah. I mean, if there's. If there's one that he could have cut, I. I don't find it offensive.

[Ellen]

You know, I just like it done simply. I mean, it's a song that I feel like, you know, it's a powerful song and it's not made more powerful by playing it harder.

[Ian]

Yeah. I mean, this little stretch here towards the end of the set is again, I don't find it Offensive. But you do get a Masters of War into Just Like a Woman, into Watchtower, which is, you know, might be flagging a little bit for us sickos at least, right? I'm sure a lot of that hit big for the crowd. Just Like a Woman. You can hear it. They're like, really hooting and hollering. But, you know, I think our feelings on Just Like a Woman are well, well known and established by now.

[Steve]

Yeah. The most lasting aspect of doing this show with you guys is that it has really talked me out of loving Just Like A Woman. Like, I feel like I was a Just Like a Woman fan before we started doing this show. And now I still love the Blonde on Blonde.

[Ian]

Yeah, the original covers.

[Steve]

I think that's great. But, like, as a live song, I am so tired of it at this point. Because that is a song that just seems to bridge every era, practically, of Bob Dylan. And so, yeah, I'm never excited to hear that. Never excited to hear Ballad of a Thin Man. I mean, I guess we've had some surprising ballads in the past.

[Ian]

So there's an element of Thin man here that I want to talk about, but it's not the song.

[Steve]

Well, yeah, the speech beforehand where he's talking like, that's a thing too. Like.

[Ellen]

Yeah, he talks about the geek.

[Ian]

Oh, my God.

[Ellen]

Yeah, it's classic Bob Dylan, like, carnival.

[Ian]

Talking about the carnival. He fucking loves the carnival.

[Bob]

There used to be carnivals coming through our cows all the time. Most of the time, every carnival had what they called a geek. And I don't know if they still have them, but they used to have what they call geeks. And the geek is a man who eats a live chicken right before your eyes. He bites the head off and eats that. Then he continues to eat the rest of them. Sweeps all the feathers up with a broom. And when back then it cost a quarter, quarter to see him now probably cost about 10, 15 bucks. But back then, before inflation, it only cost a quarter. Anyhow, nobody would hang out too much with the Geek. Everybody much left him alone to himself. And one day I was having breakfast with a bearded lady. She was telling me, you know, the geek, he's really funky. He's low, more low down than low down. He. He doesn't like anybody. And not only does he keep to himself, but he considers everybody else as being very strange and very freaky. I said later on, as I was traveling around making my rounds, that came back to me at a certain point in time. And I put it into this particular song.

[Steve]

I Mean, it's reminiscent of the moment on Buddha Con, like, where he's introducing the times they were changing. He's like, this song means a lot to me. And it means a lot to you, too.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Steve]

And it's like, it's so cringey. You're like, bob, you don't. Do you really buy this? Like, I think, in a way, I don't think he's being insincere. Like, at that moment, his life, you know, he might have felt a certain nostalgia for his own past. And so I don't want to dismiss that as just pure, like, show business drivel, which is like, how critics, like, interpreted at the time. Like, people that called that record, like, a Vegas type record. They would point to that introduction in particular as being like, oh, like, why is Bob Dylan being, like, sentimental about his own songs? It's so on Bob Dylan, yeah.

[Ellen]

He says he's like. He's like, when I was going around making my money, I thought. And I eventually put it in this particular song.

[Ian]

Oh, my God.

[Steve]

And it's like. And, you know, it's interesting now because, like, we're so starved. Like, oh, Bob Dylan wore a white hat.

[Ian]

Was 20, 23.

[Steve]

We'd be a. It'd be amazing if Bob Dylan came out and was like, hey, I called my album Rough and Ratty Ways. And this song is about, you know, a false prophet. There's a lot of false prophets out there. Like, if he did that kind of pattern, like, it would blow our minds. But there are instances in this era where he's doing that and it just feels like, so phony.

[Ian]

Well, that's what I was saying at the beginning of all this is like, I honestly think that he. He felt wounded at this point in time. And especially at the end of 78, he's played 100 something fucking dates. He's probably, you know, you know, just burnt the fuck out on the road. Ronaldo and Clara Bomb, Street Legal Bomb. You know, he's just kind of getting his engine going with the Christian shit. He's obviously gone through the divorce. Like, I think he just, like, he need. He needed to feel loved. And a lot of these intros, I think, are him doing a bit of a shuck and jive for the audience and kind of trying to put himself across in a more, like, cuddly, friendly manner than he was used to. And it's something that he obviously ends up dropping very quickly after this point. But I love this stuff at this moment in time because it's such a revealing Glimpse into just where he was at personally at the moment in time. And it's a glimpse that you don't really get throughout the rest of the man's career. It's.

[Ellen]

I mean, that all factors into Bob Talk. I mean, we, we. If we want to have that segment.

[Steve]

It'S like, well, let's go to Budokai moment first. Because like we have Buddha. That's next on the outline. Because I just like want to say a song that I'm shocked is not an O mercy. And I'm gonna throw this out there. This is my. One of my favorite versions of this song of all time that I've ever heard. Oh, the Rainy Day. I'm putting this in Buddha moment because you have the backing singers doing it. It's very like sax heavy and I'm like, this is the way this song should be delivered. Like, I love that version. It's like so good. It just has like a soul to it. It's sassy. It's not just like this oh, we're singing about drugs type song. Which is how it always feels when you hear this in a set. Like, oh, hahaha, everybody must get stone. Like, it's so lame. Most of the time for me hearing this, I got a live recording and just hearing the way the backing singers do it, I don't know, it just felt like.

[Ian]

It feels like a show tune.

[Ellen]

Yeah, yeah, it felt like an old song.

[Steve]

It felt like totally rejuvenated for me.

[Ellen]

It's got kind of like a New Orleans jazz band like parade quality. It feels like sort of. Yeah. I texted the, the chat that like, I can't believe you guys are going to be like, you're like halfway through this thing, there's like the, the biggest, fattest, sassiest version of this song you hate. But I guess it was just a sassy enough free to not hate it.

[Steve]

Well, I gotta say, the first couple times I listened to the show, I skipped the Rainy Day Women because I'm like, I know what this is.

[Ellen]

I didn't even do your due diligence.

[Steve]

Well, no, I did do that.

[Ellen]

I did because I just said.

[Steve]

I just said the first bunch of. That's why I didn't maybe talk about it at first because I, you know, I was just like going to parts that I would assume I would like. And then I was like, why I'll listen to the Rainy Day Women. And I'm like, oh, this is. This is. This is what I'm looking for from this song. This is like way better than any of any rainy day women I can remember hearing ever. So I'm like, this has to be my number one Budokan moment. Because this would otherwise be just rubber stamped into O Mercy. But no, it gets delivered from O Mercy and is a highlight for me. Totally.

[Ian]

It's what the song should sound like because, I mean, that's the point of the song initially on Blonde on Blonde, right? Is that Bob has this like whip smart, you know, Nashville rock band playing this corny big band, fucking Souza march ass kind of song. And it's sort of a lark. And obviously with the lyrics, it's a funny way to start that record. And anytime he plays it live, it's the same kind of thing. It's a rock band playing this song that should be being played by dudes on tubas in a marching band. This is his actual marching band. This is the one time that Bob Dylan has a marching band on stage to present his music. And the song that sounds like it should have been played by marching band comes across exactly the way that it should.

[Steve]

Can I just say, too, if we're doing the Budokan inside Budokan.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Steve]

I don't know if. I don't know if we all have those kind of moments, but like, for me, the number one Budokan inside a Budokan moment is the Shelter from the Shelter.

[Ian]

Yes.

[Steve]

Because, I mean, the one on Budokan, I actually really like that version. It's so weird.

[Ian]

The reggae version, it's kind of reggae.

[Steve]

And it's sort of like. I don't really know how to describe it. It's a very weird rhythm to that song. But then here it feels more like the regular Shelter, except there's like a disco bass on it. And also the backing singers have like a great part on it too. And I don't know, this version of Shelter I like. I love it.

[Ian]

Totally. Yeah. Those backing vocals completely make it for me.

[Steve]

The backing vocals are so good.

[Ian]

That's perfect.

[Steve]

So good. It's like, oh, yeah, this is Bob doing some girls treatment to Shelter from the Storm. It's so. It's so awesome. So, yeah, that's my number one Budokan inside a Budokan moment.

[Ian]

And there's this twinkling, like, descending keyboard line from Pasqua. And then you get to this big honking horn solo. It's really like this is thing twinkling and descending.

[Ellen]

He loves to twinkle and then descend.

[Ian]

That's what he's there for. This is what he was searching for in this song, I think. And that's the story of the later 78 material is like. Some of the arrangements that you had on Budokan are similar here at the end of the year, and they just sound better. They're more invested, they're tighter. But some of these other ones, Shelter being a great example, he's what he was after at the very beginning of it, and it just took him time. I'm sure if you go back through every tape throughout 78, you can probably track the actual evolution of songs like this and find the moment where he actually found it. Here, obviously, is well past that, because he has found it. The other one, for me, that's a Budokan. On a Budokan is the one that comes right before that, actually, which is Tambourine man, which is one of the. When I think about, like, the original Budokan record, like, Tambourine man is maybe the song that I think about just hearing that. That lyric, that incredible, you know, signature Bob song in that interpretation there. And that's honestly, for the most part, been wiped away in Charlotte by the end of the year. It's. Again, it's Bob and Pasqua, basically, on a. Like, the two of them duetting. It's this beautiful kind of bright organ sound that takes you through most of the track and Bob getting invested and involved lyrically. And then there's this moment, like, I don't know, three, four minutes in, when he brings the harp out and the crowd just goes wild and Bob is blowing and it just. It, like, it sounds like, holy shit, there he is. It's Bob. It is. But underneath all of the white frilly outfits and the weird purple lights and all of the brassy instruments on stage, that is still Bob Dylan on stage, right there in front of you. You can hear it in the harp that he's. He's wailing on at the end of Tambourine.

[Ellen]

I've got one. Okay, this is where I wanted to bring up, that a certain song sounds like a different song. It's a Buddha Conception moment. You're a big girl now on The Complete Budokan, 1978. Sounds like where are you tonight? But it slowed down.

[Ian]

Interesting.

[Ellen]

It has, like, this similar. It just the feel of it. It's. It's drastically slowed down compared to where are you tonight? But if you listen to them, there's a really similar feel to what's being done with it. And I really like how it comes across.

[Bob]

And I'm back in the rain.

[Steve]

And.

[Bob]

You are on dry land. You made it there somehow. You're a big girl now.

[Ian]

I can kind of hear it. Yeah.

[Ellen]

You know, it's kind of got, like, if you just imagine with a little bit like if it was pepped up a little bit more, it has that same kind of like sultry.

[Ian]

Yeah. Kind of quiet storm, slow burn feeling that.

[Ellen]

And at the end, it does get kind of big. And. Yeah, it's. It. It's weirdly similar.

[Ian]

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. And that's a good note because I wanted to. We haven't touched on too much, you know, too many details from the Budokan set, the box set there. But yeah, you're a big girl now. Absolutely huge to me. The tomorrow is a long time that he pulls out in this also, I think is incredible. This is another one that we've talked about as a relative kind of deep cutter rarity from the early, early days that he doesn't like to revisit too often. But I think what he does in this version, it's a really just soulful interpretation. Pretty. Pretty quiet as far as Budokan songs go. Relatively quiet and simple at least, is fantastic. And then the. I Threw It All Away and the Man In Me, those are kind of the other two major discoveries from this Budokan set. That Man In Me, which I think was the first single they put out here. Like, I don't know how they left that off the original record. That's fucking incredible.

[Bob]

What a wonderful feeling.

[Steve]

Just to know.

[Bob]

That you're really there. I don't wanna believe it, but I know it's true.

[Steve]

And he's tinkering with the words a little bit too. And yeah, I mean, I think that that that trio songs, which I mentioned earlier too. Like, I feel like those songs are like the heartbroken Bob trilogy that's on the box set. Like, it speaks to his state of mind. And maybe it was left off of At Budokan because there's a fair amount of that on Hard Rain. I think Hard Rain is like a pretty heartbroken sounding live record that also has I threw it all away on there.

[Ian]

And that idiot wind.

[Steve]

Yeah, he was going through some stuff, clearly at that time. One quick thing I just want to say about Budokan moment too. Like, another thing I just would slip in there. That is. It's shocking hearing it on the Charlotte show in light of everything else. Bob stripping it back and playing an acoustic. It ain't me, babe. You're not. Like, I was not expecting that in this context. Him just being by himself for a song and playing like A classic sounding Dylan song. It feels, in a way, the most radical moment of the show because you're used to the big band, you're used to these radical rearrangements. And then for one song, Bob's just like, okay, I'll just do my Bob Dylan thing with the guitar.

[Ellen]

Like real live. Real live also has one of those where it's like in the midst of all these other kind of torqued up versions. It's just that that Real live Enemy Babe is my favorite one also.

[Steve]

Oh, man. Well, hey, I'm here for any real live love.

[Ellen]

But yeah, it's. This song is. It's a song that I grew to love a lot later. But I think his willingness to just do a simple rendition of it, even when he's not doing that for anything else, has made it stand out for me at various times.

[Steve]

Bob talk.

[Ian]

Bob talk. I mean, where do you even.

[Ellen]

When did he shut up?

[Ian]

Yeah, we got the Thin man speech. We got the Maggie's Farm intro, which is short, but I love this one as well because he's. He's doing a little bit of self mythologizing. I played the song in the Newport Folk Festival and they booted me out of town. Hard to believe such a song could cause such a distress, but it did.

[Steve]

That's another one where you're just like. It's a very Vegasy type intro. Like, oh, yeah, this one. They booed me in 1965. Which you would never imagine Bob talking that way now, you know.

[Ian]

Of course not.

[Steve]

It was that in this moment in his career, like, felt like, in a weird way, you feel like. Was he thinking that, oh, I'm. I'm kind of going into my Elvis phase now? Like, was that.

[Ellen]

Yeah, I think that's what he said. I mean, I. At various points when this was brought up, there's some interviews around the time where I think that he. He said, like, well, you wouldn't say that about, like, you know, nobody said this about Elvis, if I'm recalling correctly.

[Ian]

But like, well, yeah, this was. This was all right. In the wake of Elvis passing, in which Bob has written about and spoken about before that, like, finding out that Elvis died, you know, affected him pretty profoundly.

[Steve]

But in terms of just being like a rock star in his late 30s, though, like, if he thought, like, oh, am I being put out to pasture in the same way Elvis was at the end of his career?

[Ian]

That was the template. Yeah, that was the one. That was the one path that had been demonstrated to him by someone older than him.

[Steve]

Right.

[Ian]

That like, he could look to as, like, all right, I guess I can move to Vegas and put on a crowd pleasing show and get dressed up in these fancy outfits and I'll at least cash a check. Obviously. He then goes on to define, you know, everything else that you can do as an aging rock star.

[Steve]

And then he's like, no, I'll make my own template. I'll become a born again Christian, right. And I'll stop, like, I'll do the opposite. I won't play any of my old songs. I'll only play songs about Jesus for about three years. Like that's the new template.

[Ian]

That's right.

[Steve]

You know, which, you know, no one else has followed. We're waiting for someone to do that. It'd be amazing. Dan. Imagine listening Dan Behar. Please do that.

[Ian]

I'd love to be incredible.

[Ellen]

Yeah, he's doing a solo tour shortly, I think beginning of next year.

[Ian]

Maybe he'll start sermonizing up there in between, you know, the moments of him just kind of like mussing his hair and quietly sipping from a beer.

[Ellen]

Well, the last time I saw him, he. I mean, the last material has like basically straight spoken word in it. And he was reading from paper there, like so many, so many.

[Steve]

He talked about that. He said that when I last interviewed him, he said he has all of this spoken word stuff that he doesn't know what to do with.

[Ellen]

Oh, I know what he should do with it. You should put it out. Oh, as a spoken word album.

[Steve]

Yeah.

[Ian]

The Destroyer bootleg series. Imagine that.

[Steve]

But yeah, you have the Maggie's Farm thing. You got the Bout of a Thin man thing. You've got the Gypsy.

[Ian]

The one. Yes. Meeting the king of the Gypsies in France before one more cup of coffee. We gotta just drop some of this in here as well. Because there's no way to do this justice.

[Bob]

I was over in France a few years back on the particular date I was born in Hempenstand. Be a high holy gypsy holiday. Gypsies is like Christmas time. So I went over there to check it out one time and it was everything it supposed to be. All the gypsies from Europe, Hungary, Romania, England, Germany, France, Spain, all every other countries. Anyway, they all go there for a week and they party. They just party have. And then spring. So the first day I got there, I met the king of the gypsies.

[Steve]

That's right, partying. And I think he says, I'm partying with the gypsies for a week. And he's like, I was feeling kind.

[Ian]

Of Tired talking about.

[Ellen]

It's like he's said this story several times.

[Ian]

Has he.

[Ellen]

He pulls. Yeah, he pulls this one out. Like, there's a few. I. I know this isn't the only time he's done this shtick where he's talking about, like, yeah, meeting the King of the Gypsies. And then they asked him for one more thing and he said, one more cup of coffee. And then. Yeah, but like.

[Steve]

Yeah, like, how, like the King of the gypsies, like, I wrote this down. Like. Like how many wives he has and how many children. It's something like just a ridiculous number.

[Ian]

16 wives and 130 children.

[Steve]

Yes. For real. That's for real. Just amazing. Yeah. And then, you know, his great speech before Senor, which is my favorite.

[Ian]

That one's legit great.

[Steve]

It's legit great. It's a great speech. And it also just works for the song. It totally sets it up so well. But, yeah, again, it's just. It's amazing to get chatty Bob. It's such a different experience from what we get in a modern experience with him. And you can see the positives and the negatives of it. I mean, I would rather that he talked a lot. I would love to hear him talk more on stage. But it also, you know, we see examples of him, you know, maybe being kind of an awkward stage pad or guy. And like, that. Maybe that's, like, why he doesn't talk as much. Because when he does, it ends up being. Doesn't seem natural, you know, so that might have played in. Into his decision there to not talk to the audience as much.

[Ian]

Bob Dylan has social anxiety.

[Ellen]

Sometimes the things you like. You know, it's like clothes. Like, you might like something, but it doesn't mean it actually looks good on you. It's like Bob Dylan likes when other artists do that. I think he. There's some of his favorite artists are like that sort of storytelling type. And they can go into that gear, but doesn't necessarily suit him the best.

[Steve]

Yeah, And I'm sure he's just like, I can't win, you know, like, if I.

[Ellen]

Instead, he makes a theme time radio hour, and he finds a channel for that type of stuff.

[Steve]

Right? Yeah, yeah, that's a good point for sure. Bootleg titles.

[Ian]

See, this is. This is. The thing is reading. Reading James Write up on Aquarium Drunkard, where, you know, he talks about the original tapes of this. Like, sometimes I feel like I can't even compete with the actual bootleg titles because the original, original, actual bootleg Title for this Charlotte tape is Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte, which is like. That's poetry right there.

[Ellen]

And the COVID of it.

[Ian]

Yeah, with the COVID of it, the Puka show necklace. And he's just red and, like, greasy looking.

[Ellen]

It's like, why is it all red? This whole era is like, red. Like, the lighting is red and pink.

[Ian]

That was capturing a spirit, capturing the moment in time. But, you know, we gotta do justice to some things here. Steven, do you have any.

[Steve]

I'll concede that he doesn't play this song in the show, but it works as a pun with Charlotte. It takes a Charlotte to laugh. It takes a train to cry. Yeah, no, yeah.

[Ian]

Yep.

[Steve]

And then this one's lazier. One more cup of Charlotte.

[Ian]

Okay. One more cup of Charlotte. That's great.

[Steve]

What? I like the. I like the. It takes a Charlotte to laugh. I'm alone on that one. Patreon people. Let me know if you like that one. Come on. I usually get, like, one Patreon person to feed my ego and agree with me when you guys don't agree with me. So one Patreon person in the comments. Compliment me on that.

[Ian]

I pulled just straight from the. Straight from the dialogue, which I think is the funnest part of the shit here. I've got Bob Dylan, King of the Gypsies. And I've also got Lunch with the Bearded lady, which is what he claims that he does before the Thin man intro. He's saying that he got lunch with the Bearded lady the other day. So. Bob Dylan, Lunch with the Bearded lady, live in Charlotte, 1978.

[Steve]

What if it was. Went to See the Gypsy King? Like the song title.

[Ian]

He should have played that. I can't believe. I can't believe he didn't get. Get. Get that worked in here.

[Ellen]

Yeah, I don't have that. Anything that good. We better talk this over comma Charlotte, Girl from the North Country. Because it's North. Girl from the North Carolina. Girl from North Carolina. You could say girl from North Carolina.

[Ian]

Charlotte from the storm.

[Ellen]

Just like a woman named Charlotte. It's all right, Ma. I'll. I'm having one more cup of coffee and Charlotte's fine. I don't know.

[Ian]

16 years, dot dot dot in Charlotte.

[Ellen]

Charlotte's love crazy. How about that? Because it's. Because he says she's love crazy.

[Steve]

So we agree that it Takes a Charlotte to Laugh is the best one, right?

[Ian]

We do, yes.

[Steve]

Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

[Ellen]

Stepchildren of Charlotte.

[Ian]

That one's actually pretty good.

[Ellen]

Charlotte stepchild.

[Steve]

Am I your step?

[Ellen]

Charlotte Stepchild of the guards.

[Steve]

It just keeps getting worse. Okay.

[Ian]

Early Roman King, high top boots.

[Steve]

Ellen Pasqua for me.

[Ian]

Yeah, Pasqua for me. It's such a unique element of this show. And really, really, I think at this point in the late 78 incarnation of this stuff, this band was really relying on him above everyone else to.

[Steve]

Well, I mean, we haven't mentioned, really, the most unique and defining musician of this tour, which is Steve Douglas on the Sacks.

[Ian]

Yes.

[Steve]

Flute. We've.

[Ellen]

We've like mentioned flute. We talked about flute.

[Steve]

We've. Yeah, that we're really burying the lead. Like, look, I. Elabor Pasco is my early Roman king. But, like, I think Steve Douglas needs to be considered because the flute is so defining for this era.

[Ellen]

He's the Budokan King, really. I mean, he is, like, definitive of that era. Of this era.

[Steve]

Yeah. He's Mr.

[Ellen]

He's the King of Budokan. Like, there's nobody else. The flute thing, it. Yeah, like, that's the most polarizing thing about this whole era, I think. I think people hear the flute and they run for the hills. Or they like, they like it.

[Steve]

One thing I'll say about the original Budokan album, the Love Minus Zero, that's one of my favorite versions of that song, Banger. And I'll stand behind that claim. One of the great every day of the week. And that's a very flute heavy song.

[Ian]

Flute driven.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Flute.

[Steve]

And obviously the Mr. Tambourine man on the Budokan record. Very flute heavy. Not as flute heavy heavy on the Charlotte show, but. And Steve Douglas, too. Like, he got accused of aping Clarence Clemens on this tour. Like, there'd be reviews saying that, oh, this is very Bruce in the E Street Band type sax solos. I mean, Steve Douglas played on Phil Spector Records, Right. So if anything, I'm not aping the.

[Ian]

Guy who aped him initially.

[Steve]

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, that's what Bruce is drawing from for what he's doing. So, you know, to accuse this guy that played on all, you know, Phil Spector records of aping anyone else, it feels a little unfair. But, yeah, I don't know. He's not my early Roman king, but I think we have to at least mention him in this category as a.

[Ian]

He needs a shout out. Totally.

[Ellen]

Early Gypsy King.

[Steve]

Evan, like, who's your early Roman gypsy king?

[Ellen]

I think it's Alan, because those descending and glistening, those little keyboard moments that are just like. They're always present whenever we've talked about, like, standout moments on this and either of these on the box set. And on this, he seems to be, like, pulling the strings about, like, why we're impressed so often. But especially, I mean, here too, I'll.

[Ian]

Throw an early Roman queen also to Helena Springs, Joanne Harris and Carolyn Dennis, who all three are the backing vocalists here. The first instances of Bob Dylan performing live with backing vocalists. Something that he's going to lean quite heavily on in the years to come. And I think what's remarkable here is that when he's getting to the gospel shit, obviously a lot of that song is written with backing vocalists in mind. They fit hand in glove with that approach there. And in this case, one More cup of Coffee. Valley Below is not necessarily written with a choir of backing vocalists in mind. And yet I think they always kind of find a way to make it work. And especially when they really kill it. Like on Shelter from the Storm, for instance. Like, they make the song so shouts to all of them and to Bob for figuring out how to make some of the weirdest rock songs ever written work with this extraordinary proto gospel approach.

[Steve]

I feel like just to bring it back to Alan quick, no disrespect to the backing singer. Alan, we have to mention, brought back into the Bob fold many years later. He played on Murder Was Foul. Oh, that's right, one of the keyboardists on that song. So you know, a important figure in BOB Dylan history, Mr. Alan Pasqua.

[Ian]

That's right.

[Steve]

If you want to learn more, we'll mention Ray Padgett. Again, Ray, you owe us some residuals here. There's a great interview with Alan on Ray's website and it's also in his book. So, yeah, if you want to know more about Alan, read about him there. You can also learn about how he played with Eddie Money before joining this tour. The great Eddie Money. Do you guys know Eddie Money?

[Ellen]

R.I.P. r.I.P.

[Steve]

Is this, like, another arena rocker that I'm dropping. Rick Darren.

[Ellen]

Eddie Money.

[Ian]

I know the name Eddie Money. I don't know that I could tell you a single Eddie Money song.

[Steve]

Two Tickets to Paris.

[Ian]

Oh, okay, sure, baby.

[Steve]

Hold on, baby.

[Ellen]

I have friends who encountered anybody's. Any Money's son and had a really weird time with him. But you know Rip.

[Steve]

Yeah. Edward Money.

[Ellen]

And I'm sorry for your loss.

[Ian]

Tickets to Paradise. There's this whole like, like, like class or, like, subculture of, like, mid late 70s, like, rock guys like this that, like, I know five of their songs like the back of my hand because I've heard them 9 million times. But, like, I have zero kind of cultural space in my brain for Edward Money.

[Steve]

Says the guy in the white undershirt.

[Ian]

Well, listen, I, you know, maybe this is bad on me. I just. That's the way that it's worked out here.

[Steve]

You should look up Rock and roll Hoochie coo. Look it up.

[Ian]

Rock and roll hoochie coo.

[Steve]

Come on, man. Days to confuse soundtrack.

[Ian]

Yeah, no, sure. I mean, days and confused. Great movie. I'm sure. I've heard the song. I just, you know, I like hearing you say rock and roll hoochie.

[Steve]

How many stars? How many stars? Three.

[Ian]

Three. Come on.

[Steve]

Three.

[Ian]

Three.

[Ellen]

Yeah. I mean, when we're talking about this era, I think it's as good as it gets for 78, pretty much. So, yeah.

[Ian]

Three, 78. The whole year deserves three stars. And that, I think is really what is so great about Budokan. I said earlier it wasn't like a revelation document. And for freaks like us, I don't think that it was talking about the box set.

[Steve]

You're talking about the box set.

[Ian]

That's right. That's right. But I think what is significant about it is that for all of the many millions of Bob Dylan listeners and potential Bob listeners out there who might have discounted Budokan based on the Rolling Stone record guide, based on the viall. Allmusic.com presenting this, representing this, bringing it back out and saying, no, actually, this shit actually is worth a 60 song, 900 doll box set that you got to import from Japan. There is something worth coming back to here.

[Steve]

Well, you can buy it. You can buy it stateside, too.

[Ian]

You can buy it stateside.

[Steve]

I know I don't have to, you know. Well, people may take you literally. You don't have to pay you. You can pay $150.

[Ian]

$150.

[Steve]

A lot of money. Still a lot. I was just going to say, I don't know if at some point we want to do an episode by the end of the year where we pick our favorite shows we've talked about so far. Because I've had so many instances where I'm like, this is the best show we've done yet. I almost said that for this one. And I'm like, wait a second. I think I've said that three or four times. I have to actually go through all the shows we've talked about and maybe I'll do this on my own. Or we don't have to record an episode. But I think it would be interesting. Yeah, no, for us to kind of review what we've talked about. So far and be like, what? What's the best thing we've done? Because, again, there's been, like, numerous instances where I'm like, this is the best show we've done. And I feel that about the 78 one, but I'm like, there's probably something else that's as good or better than this.

[Ian]

I mean, you were calling your shots a couple weeks ago on 29, on the 2019 show.

[Steve]

Exactly. I said. I said it for that one. I said it for, like, the San Jose 92 show. I set it for the Berkeley show that I was at.

[Ian]

The 2002 show. The 2001 show. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, maybe we got to do this. We got to do never, you know, look back at Never Ending Story's first year and put together a little greatest hits of our own.

[Ellen]

Yeah, our favorites. I mean, this one is. I think it's a great show, but it's not my favorite of the ones we've covered.

[Steve]

All right, well, we'll do that before the end of the year. I think it would be good. Maybe we can have listeners also vote.

[Ellen]

Yeah. I'd be curious to know what people think.

[Steve]

Yeah. Chime in on our Patreon. It'd be nice to hear what you guys have to say.

[Ian]

Yeah, well, we got some more fun stuff in store coming out. I think the next one we're going to do is one more Tony's choice before the end of the year. So we'll see what all you folks out there have lined up for us and then some interesting side journeys coming in December. I think we're going to pause on Bob at least for. For one or two weeks and come back to an artist that we've talked about previously, but do him a little more justice with a bit more spotlight. But you'll see that. You'll see that soon enough, folks. Until then, don't you dare miss Bob Dylan in Charlotte, 1978.

[Bob]

In.

[Steve]

The brightness.