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- [00:03]
Alex Papademus
This could be considered a track.
- [00:04]
Evan
Not really, though.
- [00:05]
Ian
We don't want to do that.
- [00:07]
Evan
This is a little intro, you know, Brian.
- [00:10]
Ian
All right, here we go.
- [00:10]
Evan
Countdown time.
- [00:11]
Alex Papademus
One, two, three, go. We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee. We don't take our trips on lsd.
- [00:27]
Evan
Welcome back to Jokerman podcast about the Beach Boys and the Grateful Dead and the Grateful Today.
- [00:36]
Ian
The Beach Boys and the Grateful Dead. How's that for a twosome?
- [00:40]
Evan
Well, we're gonna talk about how that is as a twosome. I'm Evan.
- [00:45]
Ian
I'm Evan. And we are thrilled to be joined once.
- [00:47]
Evan
You're Ian.
- [00:48]
Ian
Oh, did I say Evan? Yeah, boy, I'm Ian. And we're thrilled to be joined once again. I think coming back for the fourth top, either fourth or fifth, I gotta say. But first time talking, not about Steely Dan, Alex Papademus. Alex, welcome back.
- [01:05]
Alex Papademus
It's nice to be back here on Jokerman, a place where even squares can have a ball.
- [01:09]
Ian
There you go. Well said. Excuse me while I crack my miniature barks here. We're not doing a rupee report today, but what do you have?
- [01:19]
Evan
Baby barks.
- [01:20]
Ian
Baby barks, exactly. I'm on dry January once again, but my wife very thoughtfully got me, you know, 12 of these itsy bitsy baby barks as a stocking stuffer this Christmas season. So I've been enjoying drinking these recently.
- [01:33]
Evan
I've got the GTs alive.
- [01:36]
Ian
You're drinking that one.
- [01:38]
Evan
Ancient mushroom elixir. Root beer flavored drink.
- [01:43]
Ian
Well, don't tell us anything about it because we're going to save that for its own root beer report somewhere down the line. Do you have any thoughts about root beer before we get started here, Alex?
- [01:51]
Alex Papademus
Do I. You know, I've watched you guys go on this journey and I really. It's something that I put aside a long time ago, and it just reminds me of, like going to Round Table Pizza when I was 8. And maybe that's the point.
- [02:02]
Ian
Yes.
- [02:03]
Alex Papademus
Like just drinking. Like having access to a pitcher at a time when I was not going to make good choices about a pitcher of root beer. So I've not really gone, you know, deep, deep into it. I have a cool, clear water. Cool, cool water.
- [02:18]
Ian
Cool, cool water. That's right. It's such. It's such a gas, I hear. Hmm. Yes. We're here. We're here. We're here to continue our Beach Boys journey. We're still in 1971. Last time we were with the boys of the beach, we were doing the extremely deep dive on Surf's up. The surf's up record with our friend Alexis Taylor from Hotship. We're still in 1971 here. Slight detour because of this. I mean, frankly, kind of legendary instance of. Yes, you heard right. For everyone who is not aware of this. I wasn't until we started doing this Beach Boy shit. The Grateful Dead and the Beach Boys live at the Fillmore east in 1971. April 27, 1971. So fascinating show which we'll get into momentarily, but we've roped Alex in here. Longtime listeners will know he's our resident Dan expert, Dan Head. Because you're writing a Quantum Criminals sequel. Ish. You know, a spiritual successor perhaps would be a better way to phrase it. About, about the Grateful Dead.
- [03:27]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, I have. I love that there's a show that I can come on where you can say Quantum Criminals esque as the descriptor. And you don't need to explain what you mean by that because it's an extremely self selecting audience. It's like, oh yeah, like well read it.
- [03:41]
Ian
Completely well understood by everyone.
- [03:43]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, they've all read it. Or like mean to read it or were like that guy. I'm not going to read that. But they all. Everyone knows, which is great. It's nice to be at home. Yeah. So Joan lemay and I are working on our second collaboration. It is very much in the spirit of Quantum Criminals. So it's portraits by Joan of the various, you know, the Rogues Gallery of the Grateful Dead, you know, from Casey Jones to Jack Straw. Jack Straw is present, of course. Yeah, all of those, all of your favorites.
- [04:15]
Evan
All of your, you know, my uncle.
- [04:17]
Alex Papademus
My uncle.
- [04:18]
Evan
Me and my uncle.
- [04:20]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, it's. Those are kind of, they're all kind of covered in, you know, one, one area. But yeah, those. So yeah, we're doing that. We're working on it. It's. It's at a moment, I think, you know, we, we both, both John and I had crazy 20, 20 fours in our own ways. And so, you know, there's a point where I think when we, when we talk about it, we kind of send back and forth this, this reels clip of Jerry Garcia. That's an interview with Jerry where it's just edited down to just him kind of laughing. You know, we're both kind of in that place with it. He's like, oh man, like what? Like it just goes on forever. It's wonderful. And like, I think that's how we feel when someone asks about it. Like we're. Some people are like how's the. How's it going? How's. It's called Friends of the Devil. I should have dropped it.
- [05:07]
Evan
Oh, that's good. There you go.
- [05:08]
Ian
People like, yeah, that's great.
- [05:10]
Alex Papademus
It's Friends of the Devil. You know, something, something and something from the. You know, the songs in the. Great. We're still in negotiation as to what those title words are going to be, but, yeah, so we. We kind of do that voice when we talk about it. But, yeah, no, it's like, it's coming together. It's very different because, like, there's, like. You know, as you guys probably know, there's, like, six books about Steely Dan, you know, and you can read, like, the four good ones, like, in a weekend. Basically. Like, now there's 97, you know, like, and this. It's, like the opposite because it's. There's so much information, and, like, the corpus is so huge, and, like, there's 10 million versions of every song. And, like, the map is as big as the territory. And so it's been an interesting saga of, like, just when do you kind of stop? When do you walk away from the. The all you can eat shrimp buffet that is the Grateful Dead's work and music? When do you decide you're like, oh, I'm not. I've not gone deep enough into 1993. You know, what's going on in there? And, like, when, you know, and I'll never be done, like, it'll just be wrestled away from me.
- [06:15]
Ian
Sure.
- [06:16]
Evan
I'm just stuck on the idea of the all you can eat shrimp buffet of the Grateful Dead, where you get dosed from shrimp. Like, they would. They would do that to anything. You're eating damn shrimp. And then you're.
- [06:28]
Ian
You're on lot at the endless shrimp buffet, and someone's just got a big tub of LSD that they're piling in there with the popcorn shrimp cocktail.
- [06:38]
Evan
And, like, the sauce, it would be.
- [06:40]
Alex Papademus
Lost in the sauce.
- [06:41]
Evan
And then you wake up a week later, and you don't know who you are.
- [06:46]
Alex Papademus
I was talking to King Neptune last night. I don't know what's going on.
- [06:50]
Ian
Are you. Have you been. Cause, I mean, anyone at all familiar with you and your work and where you come from knows you are mondo supremo. Dan fan number one, maybe only rivaled by Alex Price. Bad Dan takes our buddy. But the Dead. Have you been as big of a Deadhead, as much of a Danhead your whole life?
- [07:12]
Alex Papademus
No, not in the. Well, I mean, Steely Dan's probably an older obsession than, than the Dead. But it's been this growing thing over time. Like, there was, I, I, I feel like I've talked about this before, but like, there's a, there was a point where, like, working at like, hip rock magazines in the 2000s, the last thing I wanted to listen to when I got home from work was like, more hip new music. Hip new music. Like, you become, it's like it forces you, you wonder like, why that, you know, this transition happens. But like, for I, you know, I get home and I like, I wanted to listen to Steely Dan or. And I also started like, really investigating the Dead. I got, at some point I was like, I've always been curious about this record. I'm gonna buy it. Like, I, you know, saw it used. I got John Oswald's Gray Folded, which is just Dark Star. It's all of the dark stars. It's a mosaic. It's like a cut up mosaic of every dark star version from like all, you know, however, from the very beginning to the very end of the Grateful Dead.
- [08:12]
Ian
And it's like an hour long or two hours.
- [08:14]
Alex Papademus
Yes. It's incredible. And I had this experience or listening to it as, you know, it's what you hear is every single way the Dead ever sounded. And I think that was something that started me on like, the path of really investigating all of these things and like, investigating it by, you know, time period. And how did it, how did this version. Like, I would sort of. I would listen to individual shows, but like, I got really into, especially during COVID I got really into just listening to. I'm going to listen to every version of Bertha and figure out which one I like the best. Which is an impossible task to, you know, to pursue. But, like, I'm going to. I would go on these jags of just listening to versions just Dark stars or just, you know, and that way you sort of find out what you like and you know, it's, it's a very interesting. I think it was, it was more like. I love the listening to the entire arc of a show as well. But there was something about, like, how these songs evolved over time. Like with this very small repertoire that they found like infinite variations on that, like, really fascinated me. So that's been like a last, you know, two decades now of kind of hobbyist investigation. And then like over the last few years, like really deep. And over the last year, like almost nothing else to the point that like just all dead. Yeah. I would have to go and turn. I'd Like, I need a palate cleanser. I need to go and listen to, like, Detroit techno or something like it just to go the other direction. Like, what is. You know, what's the 180 that I can do here to just reboot the system?
- [09:45]
Ian
That sounds very much like kind of what we've done. Not so much on this show at this point, but on the other show, the Neverending Stories program, where we're just kind of looking at every Bob Dylan concert, every iteration of Just Like a woman, Highway 61, whatever, whether they're good or bad, whatever the year may be, whether it's a good or a bad year, that's just like, there's. It's a weird way to listen to music, you know, it's very much not how I kind of grew up listening to music where I was reading Pitchfork and Brooklyn Vegan and Gorilla versus Bear and Aquarium drunkard and just like, constantly trying to stay up with the hottest, coolest new sound coming out of whatever blog or whatever. And this newness, you know, this concept of like, whatever's on the cutting edge, whatever is just dropping now, it's a leak or whatever, that's the best shit to be listening to. This is like the antithesis of that. But as I've aged, and it sounds like as you have as well, just this endless kind of journey into the deepest wells of, in our case, Bob, and in yours, the Dead. Endlessly rewarding, I've found so far, really.
- [10:51]
Evan
How Jokerman got started, actually. And I think longtime listeners know that. I was listening to the 36 from the Vault podcast that are now third mic on the. On the Neverending Stories program Stephen Haydn was doing. And that was a time when I didn't know anything about the Grateful Dead, but loved listening to people talk about doing just this. Of listening to them and all this. All this different history and the different iterations. It's inexhaustible.
- [11:25]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, it's like. It's like letting go also of the idea of, like, the definitive, you know, the recording being definitive, you know, the studio recording being definitive, which has always been like. It was always the way I was. Like, as. As a listener. Like, I never liked the, you know, when they put out the two CD version with the live versions of the songs, I would be like, ah, this is a. You know, I don't care about this. Like, I want the studio version of, Like, I want the, you know, of what, like, Talking Heads Fear of Music sounded like, you know, like when they finished it. And it was definitive and that's what it was. And, like, with the Dead, it's like. It's. You're just sort of endlessly going through possibilities of what it could be. But no one thing is, like, the.
- [12:06]
Ian
Way it's supposed to be canonical. Sure.
- [12:08]
Evan
That's the most psychedelic thing about them, really. You know, like, the fact that they just do it infinitely. Quantum is a good word. Like, it. It is like, in superposition. Like, the songs actually take on a greater meaning. When you know that they exist in, like, every dimension through time. Rather than being one canonical, official version.
- [12:33]
Alex Papademus
Yeah. And that's the folk tradition in them. That's the thing that Jerry comes from. That there are just these songs that everybody plays and picks up and plays. And they almost take that approach to their own stuff as well. They treat their own stuff the way that people would treat that. But also, I like the idea. As a comic book person, I think I like the idea of this exists in every dimension. And how there'd be different things. It's like, oh, in this world, Spider man is a frog. Like, and it's kind of, you know. But, like, there's a spider man in every. In every dimension. And, like, it's like, it's. I think it does speak to some probably, like, undiagnosed autism. Of, like, really wanting to collect all of the things. And have experienced all of the different things. And, you know, kind of line them up, you know, like, each one, you know, in your head.
- [13:20]
Ian
But. And it does. I think it does, like, work specifically, particularly well. I mean, this is not news to anyone. But you know that it's great to listen to all these different versions of Grateful Dead songs over the years. But, like, artists like the Dead or Bob are particularly well suited for this style of listening. The approach to the music. Because they have been so adventurous and diverse and exciting and unsuccessful at times, honestly. I think the Bob eras and the Dead eras don't always overlap necessarily when they're good or bad live. But Lord knows they both had their highs and their lows. And that's what makes this style of listening so rewarding. 99% of the other bands out there. I would say the tapes might exist or whatever. If you want to be listening to a zillion different versions of, I don't know, Boston music or something. That's just the first random, shitty classic rock band I could think of. No offense to all the Boston fans out there, but you know what I mean. Most other bands that are a little more cut and dry and professional about their live experience. Like, you're just not gonna get that variation. And this almost like rollercoaster aspect to a tape when you put it on for the first time and you don't know if you're gonna get one of the greatest shows you've ever heard or, you know, Waikiki92, to reference a Neverending Stories show that we had a good time listening to a couple years ago.
- [14:49]
Evan
Which brings us to the topic of today's episode, the Beach Boys and. Yeah, where they fit in in this kind of environment.
- [15:00]
Ian
Indeed.
- [15:01]
Evan
Or don't.
- [15:02]
Ian
Or don't fit in. Yeah, exactly. Fail to fit in well. Yeah. So I've got a little bit of, you know, biographical, contextual information about where we're at here with the crew, with the lads that I can deliver in a moment. But before we do, Alex, I would love if you could, and some of this is for my own benefit as well as our listeners. Could you just kind of situate us with the grateful dead in 1971 where, you know, kind of where they're at and where they're going to be going from here?
- [15:25]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, for sure. We are coming out of psychedelic hyperdrive and we're downshifting as of like, 1970. 1970 is working man's Dead and American Beauty. They start playing much simpler songs, like in the studio. Like, they've been. Their studio albums have been these kind of psychedelic fiascos, you know, just burning through all of this money to do, you know, all. It's just the crazy, craziest, nitrous fueled failed experiments that you could do in a professional recording environment. And so they go, they strip it way back. They make these very country tinged records working against Dead in American Beauty that are obviously, you know, you know, these records. Everybody knows those people who don't know anything else by the Grip Dead, probably that like, is your zone or like, you know, among other things. And so then where we are headed ultimately is the kind of high point, one of the, you know, greatest high points, which is the, you know, you're 1972, it's famous for, you know, the European tour of 72. All of those shows are the, you know, it's some of the best music they ever played. They're on their way towards that. We're on our way also to the transition. Pig Pen is ailing, I think, at this point, or he's about to. He's about to get sick and he's not really going to get better. Like that's going to be the, you know, so the guy who was in Some ways, like the charismatic frontman of the Grateful Dead when they started out, like, if you had gone to see them at like a pizza parlor or whatever, like in the very early days, you might have been like, yeah. And the singer was like this crazy biker dude with a, you know, like a leather vest on or whatever. Like, he's about to. He's transitioning out. Like, he's going to, you know, he's going to come with them in 72, but then that's going to be, you know, sort of the end of it. So, like an era is really giving way to another. And part of what's coming in is this country influence that's always kind of been there in, you know, there have been flashes of it on the records, but it is, you know, it's rooted in, you know, the. The tradition that Jerry ultimately comes out of, which is, you know, the folk tradition draws on all those things and basically, like, there's the. This band. The new writers of the Purple Sage has coalesced around Jerry, who wanted to learn. Wants to learn the pedal steel guitar and kind of forms this, you know, country rock band, you know, to do it in. And they're playing these mammoth long sets where basically it's as if they're. They're opening for themselves in a way. It's like. So the new riders open for dead with Jerry on pedal steel. Mickey plays the drones, Mickey Hart until doesn't. But that's how it starts out. And I think. Yeah, so at this point, it's like it's April 70th, sorry, April 71st. So I think Mickey has left the band and like, he's just left. So we're down to back down to one drummer, just Billy Kreuzman on drums. And yeah, that's. I think that's, you know, so that's. That's basically where it is. They're about to, you know, they're playing some of the best music of their career and like, this is the. This is the turn into a different version of what they're going to be.
- [18:37]
Ian
Is 71. I mean, I know 72 obviously is, for many reasons, one of the most well respected years in the debt. I know 77, I think, is also a major year for him. There's a couple other high points throughout the 80s. Is 71 typically thought of as one of the better years? Is it sort of like under the radar for the Heads type year?
- [19:00]
Alex Papademus
I think probably more than that. But it's. It's fun because it's kind of in between. It's still, there's a little bit of the wild, sort of dragon headed, psychedelic aspect of it. It's like, you know, there's a rawness and then like, it's not, you know, they're not. They're much more. It's a much smoother and more distilled version of them comes along. By 72, you know, you have. Keith Gotcha, Donna Gotcha joined the band and you have a, you know, you have harmonies and you have, you know, a piano player, like a real piano up there and you know, becomes something a little more refined version of themselves. They sort of present their best selves on, you know, 72 on tour. And I feel like 71 is maybe it's. It's nice because it's sort of an in between stage. Like I kind of don't have. I'm like, not as. I've become less objective about some of these things. Like as it goes along.
- [19:51]
Ian
Less objective.
- [19:53]
Alex Papademus
I've become less objective. Yeah. Over time. About a lot of this kind of like. Well, yes, they're all, they're all good years. I'm becoming one of those people a little bit. But that's.
- [20:02]
Ian
Listen, I mean, we are that way with Bob, you know, 19, 1991 neverending tour stuff. That's good music. It's terrible, but it's good to listen to and I like it.
- [20:12]
Evan
We'd argue that it's becoming more objective to say it's all good music.
- [20:16]
Ian
That's a good point.
- [20:20]
Alex Papademus
That's correct. That's correct. That's how I should think about it.
- [20:23]
Ian
So that's the Dead in terms of musicianship and kind of where they're at in their overall journey, culturally speaking. Just kind of like where they're at in the Zeitgeist at this moment. Also, from what I understand, they are really kind of becoming a big powerhouse unit able to draw crowds all around the world and kind of on the cutting edge of whatever scene it is. I feel like they've kind of graduated beyond just the San Francisco late 60s psychedelia scene @ this point for sure.
- [20:53]
Alex Papademus
And also like they are the survivors of that moment. Like in a. In a broader sense, like a lot of these other, other bands and you know, like, you know, people have passed away.
- [21:01]
Evan
Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix.
- [21:03]
Alex Papademus
Exactly. And so they've, they've, they've stood the test and it's the start of them just, you know, being this, you know, presence that's not going to go anywhere until, you know, in some ways until this, you know, to this day. You know, they've moved out outside of that. And they're obviously going to be joined on this night by some people who maybe have not left, that have not survived the moment of their greatest cultural triumph in the same way.
- [21:31]
Ian
Yeah, we've talked about this on shows in the past, literally as it turns into the 70s. 19, 70, 71, 72. Bob has kind of departed the scene. The last couple records that he's made are kind of weird and off putting to a lot of people. Self Portrait, New Morning, the Velvets are done, the Beatles are done. Like we just mentioned Hendrix, Janis Jovan, dead or dying, in the case of Jim Morrison. And sort of the next wave of what's going to happen in the mid-ish-70s, whether that's your Led Zeppelins or whether that's your David Bowie's or kind of the germinal stages of what's going to become the downtown New York punk rock scene, none of that's really at. It's all kind of frothing. It's in a state of becoming, but nothing has yet become. And so it's kind of a weird moment in time where there isn't like a definitive, like, you know, King shit of rock music. Although I guess the argument could honestly be made that maybe it is just the Grateful Dead, you know, at this moment in time. Certainly by 72.
- [22:36]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, I mean, I think they're still, you know, they're still becoming. Right. They're still becoming something different and they're, you know, but at the same time, like they have, you know, the repertoire is. Is starting to. To settle into, you know, what it's going to be like the last few years of kind of new Grateful Dead songs that are really important or them, you know, or we're about to, by the, you know, by 75, like that's kind of, you know, winding up. I would. I would argue. And some people would say, yeah, it doesn't really, you know, like the hiatus is coming. So, like they're about to sort of go to, you know, they're about to reach, you know, a point of their own where it's a, you know, they. They very well could have. Could have ended. But, you know, it's. They don't. I don't think anybody really wants to. I think they're just sort of like. They exhaust themselves for a bit. But yeah, we're going towards the wall of sound, you know, all of these things that really sort of endear the Grateful Dead to like this, you know, hardcore of population. And this is the moment when, like, it has moved beyond the psychedelic thing in that, like, new people who were not around for that, this is the thing that they can go and experience. And that's the way it's going to be, you know, from. From then on for generations of people. For, like, you know, it's the. It's the band that, like, you know, in 1980, like Lindsay Weir on Freaks and Geeks is gonna go follow at the end of that show. Like, it's, like, becomes this. It's a, you know, cultural rite of passage, you know, for all of these people. And so this is the beginning of that. Right. It's the beginning of them, you know, just kind of amassing new fans wherever they get.
- [24:01]
Ian
Sure.
- [24:02]
Evan
For those who don't know about the wall of sound, it were. It's different from the Phil Spector wall of sound. This is the.
- [24:09]
Ian
This is a physical, literal wall of sound.
- [24:12]
Evan
This is like the industrial, like the Babylonian scale, the biblical scale sound. The wall, the speaker system that the Grateful Dead would travel with because they. Just. Because they could really. They had the money and the people to be able to do this completely, utterly impractical thing of these ungodly giant speakers. And I think that it's a potent symbol for. Yeah. What their ambitions are and what they're able to do, willing to do to share their music. It's. It's truly a behemoth of a thing.
- [24:56]
Alex Papademus
Yeah. It's just. You've seen pictures maybe, like. It's just. It is a literal wall of speakers, and each one corresponds to a different part of the mix. And they're all. It's a. You know, it's incredibly, incredibly impractical. It breaks down all the time. It's constantly. They're blowing up speakers.
- [25:12]
Ian
It's.
- [25:12]
Alex Papademus
You know, it's perfect because it's like, we want technical perfection. We want it to sound incredible, but then it's. It is completely impractical. And also, it's completely impractical, like, logistically, like, just moving all of this stuff from town to town. They have to have two versions of it because, like, one is being assembled in the next city while they're putting it up in the place where they are. I mean, it is. But it's like, they kind of. Like you said they had the money. Like, they don't really have the money to do this. And, like, nobody's, like. They're. They're broke for a long, long time as a band, like, because they're just so profligate in what they're doing. But it's the dream of perfect sound. It's the dream of like being so loud and powerful but yet so clear that it can, you know, it can just reach the back of the hall. So the mics are strange because there's like a. There's a two pronged microphone that they sing into that's mixed in a different way. It's all. It's, you know, so that's coming.
- [26:05]
Ian
But anyway, that's one way to handle musical perfection, is building the wall of sound and toting it around this country against anyone's better judgment. The other way is the way that Donald and Walter pursued, which is just quit touring and become hermetically sealed in studios around Southern California and force Jay Graydon to come in and play guitar solos until his head needs to explode.
- [26:31]
Evan
Yeah, and then we have the Beach Boys. The subject of our show today, which again, I'm kind of showing my hand here, but it's painful.
- [26:44]
Ian
Oh, my God. Wow. Well, we're going to have to. This is going to be more of a debate conversation than I realized going into it. I do want to offer just a little bit of context about the Beach Boys here before we get into. So we know where the Grateful Dead are. Listeners who have been joining us on these Beach Boys programs along the way know that 1971 maybe not the strongest year for the group, at least in terms of their cultural relevance. Obviously, we're all great fans of the Surf's up record, but as we talked about on those episodes with Alexis, Jack Riley has entered the picture and is claiming to the nation it's now safe to listen to the Beach Boys again, which sort of speaks to their cultural reputation.
- [27:22]
Evan
That's what you're lead with.
- [27:23]
Ian
That's how your manager is advertising you. Exactly. Anyways, 1970-71, the Beach Boys kind of fall in with these two characters here. Michael Klenfner, that's K L E N F N E R Klenfenner. Very hard to pronounce. And yeah, it's a tricky one. And one Chip Ratchlin, who kind of helped turn them into, you know, working touring musicians. Once again, they kind of get them back on their feet and get them to and around the country not making as much money as they used to, certainly not selling out shows by any means, but at least turning into a functional. A functional band again that's able to make some money. They're all loaded into a tour bus and they're quite unhappy about that because that's not the lifestyle that the Beach Boys are accustomed to or had been accustomed to. I do have some quotes about, you know, just what life was like at this moment in time from our buddy Stephen Gaines. Mike Love tried to talk Michael Klemphner Klenfinner into meditating with him every day. But Klinfner refused unless Mike told him his mantra, which he knew Mike Love couldn't do. Klimfner said, I would constantly ask him if his mantra was, quote, cash. And Mike would say, quote, oh, you Jew boys, and laugh. Klimfner, who was not Jewish, would answer, oh, I'm Jewish. I'm going to change your name to Levinsky. Klimfner, who basically did not like Mike Love, thought he was, quote, a pretty evil guy, kind of like a Secret Service agent with a real military attitude. So just want to say for the record, that's an example of Uncool Mike. I know I've been on the Cool Mike hobby horse recently. Uncool Mike still very much exists at this moment in time.
- [29:11]
Evan
Oh, I don't think you need to tell anyone who's listened to this that Uncool Mike still exists.
- [29:17]
Ian
So that's what's happening on the tour. And then all of a sudden, here we are in 1971, in April, April 27, which Stephen Gaines claims was the most important date of this tour. The Grateful Dead were playing several nights at the Fillmore east in New York, short lived counterpart to the Fillmore West. You know Bill Graham famous vignette here in San Francisco. And because of Klemphner and Ratchland's entree there, they were pals or friends with Bill Graham. They were able to convince Jerry Garcia to jam with the Beach Boys at the end of one show. Klimfner saw the potential of exposing the Beach Boys to the Dead's quote, hip kind of audience. And he was instrumental in getting Mike, Carl and Jerry Garcia to sit down and talk. Jack Riley, Beach Boys manager, was dead set against the idea and thought Mike was scared that the kids would laugh at them. It took an hour of yelling at Jack Riley to convince him it was an important move. Klempner said Mike Love would put up a fight about everything and then later claim that it was his idea all along. It was finally agreed that the Beach Boys would appear on the final night of the Dead's stand at the Fillmore east after the last encore. Regarding the scene at the time, the Dead had been playing for three hours that night, which you can actually literally hear on this tape. Basically, Ratchland remembered and by now it was 11 o'clock. A heavy stench of pot hung over the auditorium. This beautiful painting with words here, Stephen Gaines. And it was a good guess that of the 2,700 members of the audience, 2,700 of them were tripping. Har, har, har. The audience was so stoned that nothing could have taken them higher. Ratchland said. After the Dead's last encore, Garcia said into the microphone, now we'd like you to welcome some fellow Californians. Pause. The Beach Boys. There was dead silence from the audience, at which point the group walked timidly onto the stage and took up their instruments. The Fillmore was suddenly hushed. Then unexpectedly, from the back of the auditorium, someone started to applaud. And slowly, like a wave, row after row began clapping, clapping until the wave hit the stage and the audience was on its feet, cheering. Absolute pandemonium rang through the auditorium. The Beach Boys launched into all their greatest hits and the audience loved it. The bootlegged tape of the concert became legendary in the rock and roll business. Billboard wrote of their performance. From their opening Heroes and Villains to the closing of Good Vibrations, the Beach Boys combined the best of their many standards with different material and treatment, producing a contemporary feel. The rock critic for Crawdaddy wrote, they were brilliant. Their excellence that night equaled any rock performance I have ever seen. And one more quote from another person who was in the audience there that night. Supposedly, this is according to David Leaf in his Brian Wilson, or God Only Knows the Story of Brian Wilson. The Beach Boys and the California Myth. You know, their fucking good man Bob Dylan was quoted as saying to Jack Riley. So sounds like you have a disagreement with your buddy Bob there about the quality of this performance.
- [32:28]
Evan
Evan, which date is this? Did you say they played Heroes and Villains?
- [32:33]
Ian
Yeah, the Heroes and Villains thing is a little confusing because it doesn't show up on the tape. It's possible that it doesn't. That it, you know, that it was cut out of the tape. I'm thinking more likely that Billboard was, you know, which is where that quote is from. Just got that wrong. But that is, you know, I don't know the answer to that question, because.
- [32:52]
Evan
That'S not what they close with. They start with also. Yeah, not one of their hits. And they close with not one of their hits.
- [32:59]
Ian
Mostly not their own hits. Yes.
- [33:03]
Evan
Yeah. You know, I mean, it's very possible that it was better in person. And obviously maybe not. Obviously, I was being a bit hyperbolic. I don't really have that much negative to say about the Music itself, when it's playing, it's more like everything that leads up to it. And the cavernous silences punctuated by Mike Love that really feel like they hurt to hear.
- [33:31]
Ian
Those elements are a little. A little tricky, I got to say, because, you know. And they even mention this, I think, at points in between songs. You know, the Dead are, like, tuning all of their instruments in between every single song, basically. So there's just these enormous stretches of silence and people trying to fill dead air. Which, yeah, Mike. Mike takes to just be, you know, just in full mic mode up there, cracking the worst jokes that you've ever heard in your entire life. That's a tough hang. But I gotta say, like, musically, I really kinda. I dig this. It's a weird thing. And it doesn't, like. I think the amount of songs that you get from them on this tape, which is. Yeah, literally, like five or six songs total. I don't think I would want it anymore. But somehow, like, hearing the Beach Boys and the Grateful Dead do Help Me Rhonda is like, that's incredible shit to me.
- [34:24]
Alex Papademus
If we start another song, maybe they'll come back out and join us.
- [34:28]
Ian
We took one of our old songs and we tried to kind of just.
- [34:32]
Alex Papademus
Make an arrangement the way it would sound. And it's written now.
- [34:34]
Ian
It's called Help Me Rhonda.
- [34:40]
Alex Papademus
I love hearing Jerry play Help Me Rhonda. It just. Especially you have to find the, like, the. There's certain ones where he. He is, like, just getting into it and it cuts out, like, depending on which one you listen to. So you have to find the one that has the. The full, like, you know, guitar solo on it. But just hearing him kind of figure out, like, what the. You know. Do you like the Jerry Garcia thing where it's like, what is the. What's the song I can play that is. Exists just above the plane of Help Me Rhonda that is somehow both Help Me, Rhonda and has no relation to it whatsoever. And yet kind of lands it back on base as Help Miranda in, like, a perfect kind of way, which is like, he just. He'll go around the whole universe and then, like, you know, drop it in the corner pocket, which I love. I do think some of this is really embarrassing for the Beach Boys. There's like, the part. Nothing compares to the part in During Good Vibrations where I think, is it Mike? I assume. I don't want to credit. Always assume it's Mike.
- [35:38]
Ian
Every time something is lame, always assume it's Mike. That's That's a safe rule that we've discovered on this podcast.
- [35:45]
Alex Papademus
Like, I don't know who to attribute. It could be Carl, but, like, you know, they're doing Good Vibrations. And during the breakdown, he's like, I remember singing this on the bus with the Buffalo Springfield one night, all stoned and drunk. And you can.
- [35:58]
Ian
That is absolutely my glove.
- [35:59]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, that's Mike Love. So it's like. I think some of these accounts of this show are like, they over. They exaggerate the amount of silence at the beginning, you know, because if you listen to the tape, you can hear people cheering. It's more that people are like, wait, really? Holy shit. Like, it takes a second. But, like, they're not. Like, it's not like you can hear a pin drop, but, like, there is, like, enough silence after that story is told that you're cut. You can just hear the crowd being like, yeah, cool story, bro.
- [36:24]
Ian
Nice one, dude.
- [36:25]
Alex Papademus
We've all been stoned and drunk with the Buffalo Springfield. Like, it's not.
- [36:30]
Evan
We did this one night on the bus with the Buffalo Springfield all stoned.
- [36:34]
Alex Papademus
And drunk and everything.
- [36:34]
Ian
That sounded great.
- [36:43]
Evan
There's. There's also that moment where Mike says something like, fucked up times, man. It's fucked up. It's like, why are you cursing at Mike?
- [36:55]
Ian
It's Gritty Mike. It's Mike Love begins. It's the Christopher Nolan interpretation of Mike Love.
- [37:00]
Evan
How about a song that reflects these.
- [37:03]
Alex Papademus
Really fucked up times?
- [37:10]
Evan
It's kind of something that we all need. Yeah. Yeah. It's.
- [37:15]
Ian
I mean, it is a fascinating culture class, you gotta. To me, you gotta admit. Or I have to admit that, you know. Yeah, well, it's in. And that's what I think is so fun about this, you know? Cause it is. I think it is as much like a historical curiosity as it is something that you, like, really want to listen to regular. Honestly. Like, if you listen to this show, listen to the great Dead set, you know, they've got. I think you were talking about listening to all the different versions of Bertha Alex. I think the Bertha they do here is really fantastic. Yeah, but, you know, it's. It's like a. It really is like a changing of the guards kind of moment. Or I guess maybe the guards have already changed, honestly. Cause, like, you know, the Beach Boys really are, like, so far from cultural hegemony, which had been theirs, like, half a decade earlier, five years earlier, and before the Grateful Dead, really, Even the grateful dead in 1965. Let's say 66. And how wildly different Divergent their fortunes have been and how much rock music in general has grown up. You think of the striped shirts and stuff from Surfin USA Surfin Safari era. And then Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir and Phil Nesch. These guys feel like they're from another dimension. They've beamed in from the future. And in reality, it's just been six or seven years since the Beach Boys were singing about root beer and the county fair.
- [38:48]
Evan
Who's beamed in from the future?
- [38:50]
Ian
Jerry. And everyone from the Grateful Dead feels.
- [38:54]
Evan
Much more to me like the Beach Boys just beamed in from the past.
- [38:57]
Ian
Well, I guess that could also. That's maybe the.
- [39:00]
Evan
But, yeah, semantics.
- [39:01]
Ian
Two ways of saying the same thing. But. So that culture clash, I think, emerges, and it is very clearly illustrated by these mic statements where he's trying desperately just to make himself sound cool, seem cool, like he's with it and not just this hopelessly out of date relic of a past that never was.
- [39:27]
Evan
I like that quote. However, whoever it might be attributed to about him being a CIA agent. I also really like the stuff that you're doing everywhere.
- [39:41]
Ian
The world's worst MK Ultra agent, Acid, lsd. You mentioned, I think, when we were messaging about this before we got on the mic. Alex, the Oki from Muskogee here is something that you are writing about in the book or have written about in the book or, you know, is of particular.
- [39:59]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, I mean, this is the moment of this show that I really love, like, as more than historical curiosity, although it. It has great merit as a historical curiosity as well, that it's. This song is the place that they can. It's the place where they like, fully meet for the first and maybe the only time in this set. Like, they kind of, like, up until then. Like, up until, like, they've done Searching already. Right. And like Riot and Cell Block 9. And they're kind of. You can feel them kind of like reaching for, like, shared vocabulary and just stuff that like. Like any two bands, like people who don't know each other jamming together, like, they're like, what's an old song that we all know that we can all kind of do together? And then the same thing is happening with Oki from Muskogee, which is, you know, the Merle Haggard song. Obviously, I find it as much as, you know, look, I'll sit here and on my glove with you guys all day. I share your feelings in general about sort of like the meanest transcendental meditator adherent ever.
- [41:03]
Evan
I don't know. Jerry Seinfeld's got possible. Yeah.
- [41:07]
Alex Papademus
No, it's true.
- [41:08]
Ian
I mean, but, yeah, at this point.
- [41:10]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, exactly. I love to make fun of him, but I do feel like there's. There's a moment of, like, real sort of. He's tried for irony a couple of times over the course of this night. Because there's also the kind of the aside that's like, oh, this will remind you of your adolescence, you know, to a bunch of people who were, you know, adolescent.
- [41:28]
Evan
Car songs.
- [41:29]
Alex Papademus
Yeah, car song.
- [41:30]
Ian
Car songs, Exactly.
- [41:31]
Alex Papademus
How about a car song? Take you back to your adolescence Round.
- [41:39]
Evan
Round, get around I get around.
- [42:04]
Alex Papademus
But this one, it's sort of. It's. It's. It's like to hear all of these, to hear the Grateful Dead and the Beach Boys playing this song, it means something different coming from them. But it's, like, is irony in, like, the true sense of irony where, like, the literal meaning is different from, you know, the sort of expressed meaning. Right. So there's something very knowing about Mike being the guy who's like, we don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee. Like, it's. It's both, like. It's a good joke about the squareness of the Beach Boys, and it's a good joke about the unsquareness of the Grateful Dead and about these two things kind of.
- [42:40]
Ian
Yes.
- [42:40]
Alex Papademus
Coming together. Because it's funny to hear. And it's. You know, that irony is baked into it. Like, there's, like, a really good Cocaine and Rhinestones episode that's all about Okie from Muskogee. And, like, if you've not heard this, like, everybody should listen to it and, like, really get the sort of. The complexity of, like, what's going on in that song and Merle's relationship to those. You know, to what those statements. Because it's not entirely ironic and it's not entirely sincere.
- [43:06]
Evan
And also, I'll just say it. It is a difficult thing to be an artist from the 60s making the transition into the 70s. As if anybody knew what every move along the way would be to stay up to date and stay seeming relevant. Like, of course you're gonna run into shit, that you're gonna make mistakes and flubs. And the whole culture is still figuring out what it thinks is cool or not. So that's another pro mic. Pro mic angle.
- [43:38]
Alex Papademus
I just think about. There's a Steve Erickson, the writer, sort of great music writer, who writes science fiction novels as his main thing, wrote about the beach ways. Like, you know, everyone except Brian, like, each more blessedly untroubled by genius than the next. You know, like, I, I feel like that's the thing. It's like they've, they've, you know, sort of, you know, Brian has, has drifted off it. So, you know, they have to figure this out, you know, on, on their own. Like, what are they going to sound like? Because clearly we've exhausted, you know, what, you know, what it's going to be, you know, where it's not going to be. Smile. So what is it? And the irony is that Brian kind of gets there too soon. He's not made for these times. Right. But like, it's interesting to think about this moment too because like, nobody. The, like, adulation of, you know, Pet sounds and stuff, I think. And you know, and the legend of Smile, like that doesn't exist for any of the people in this crowd. Like, these guys are just like, you know, they're, they're from the past and it's like sort of, it is, it's sort of embarrassing and sort of, you know, pitiable, I think is actually a good description of it.
- [44:42]
Evan
And yet this is the, the dead kind of very generously in some might say, or just maybe neutrally, if you want to look at it that way. Giving a hand or throwing a bone, giving some credit to what the Beach Boys are and what they represent and kind of like helping them up in quite a literal way.
- [45:08]
Alex Papademus
Giving them an infusion of swag forming the Beach Boys. I think it's.
- [45:12]
Ian
Yeah, Jerry Garcia is platforming like love.
- [45:16]
Alex Papademus
I mean, but he's not judging. It's a non judgmental platform. But no, I think like Chip Racklin worked for Bill Graham. I think like those two guys, or at least Chip did, like he was a Bill Graham guy and like started out like in, you know, like at the Filmories and like had this, you know, sort of connection. So like, that's before he was booking the Beach Boys, right? Like, I think that's, that's like how it happened.
- [45:34]
Ian
Yes.
- [45:34]
Alex Papademus
And so it's, it's not necessarily like Jerry, you know, being like, hey, you know, it'd be a great idea. Because that's not the kind of thing, you know, that's not like, hey, let's blow everybody's mind and bring the Beach Boys out. They probably thought like, okay, like when that was presented to them, but like, it is crazy to imagine like being like, oh, these people. People are going to be so high by this point that they're not going to know if they're actually looking at the Beach Boys. But like I don't think it's conceptual in that. In that way. I think it just kind of happens. And they're like, yeah, I guess, okay, like, we can. And this. This is something that can happen in the space of a Grateful Dead concert. Because, you know, like, anything can, but it is new. I think it's neutrally presented. Like, I think it's just, you know. But then at the same time, it's. It. They. There is a kinship right there. The Great California Band. It's like, if there's a band that wants. Will make you move to California in 1965, it's the Beach Boys. And in 1969, like, you will move to California because you have heard the Grateful Dead.
- [46:27]
Ian
Yes.
- [46:28]
Alex Papademus
It's another kind of idyllic vision of what this life could be like out here. So there is, like, this connection, but I don't. I don't think that they're thinking about, like, you know, oh, we're going to bring this out as a, you know, sort of to establish our place in. In history or anything like that. I just don't think they thought that way about their decisions.
- [46:48]
Evan
No. Like, I'm imagining that conversation just being like, the Beach Boys want to play with us? And then. Then be like, okay, that's cool.
- [46:58]
Alex Papademus
Yeah.
- [46:59]
Evan
And maybe some of them being like, what? Why would. That seems weird? And then Jerry being like, you know, whatever.
- [47:07]
Ian
It's one show. I mean, that's the great thing. It's one show. There's always another one. You can say that with the Grateful Dead. You can say that with Bob Dylan. And so this just happens to be the one show that Mike Love is up there cracking jokes on at the very end of the night. I mean, it is a symbolically rich moment from the cultural curiosity angle thing as well, though. Not that anyone is thinking along these lines at the moment, but we've talked about the Beach Boys very quickly sort of falling by the wayside and becoming this relic of a previous version of rock music, of pop music. And the Southern California scene being sort of a trifle like something basic and elemental and uninteresting, Artistically uninteresting, certainly, as the San Francisco scene, you know, kind of emerges towards the end of the 60s. And then the Beach Boys pull out of Monterey Pop, and they're, you know, trashed in the press for that. And, you know, the San Francisco scene really becomes, you know, culturally dominant in a way that the Beach Boys had been and really never would thereafter. And so this. This moment, this literally one night, you know, they're in New York at the Fillmore east on the Lower east side. This is the 1:1 point of synthesis of north and south in California, past and present and future. And it's sort of an awkward fit. I think, as we've talked about, the beginning of the Beach Boy set is kind of rough. Ride in Cell Block Number Nine is really. That's student demonstration time. But the actual original version of that song, I can't say I particularly care for it here at the end.
- [48:47]
Alex Papademus
A little too much Siren for me, I think.
- [48:50]
Ian
Yeah. A little heavy on. A little heavy on the Siren. But I think the trio. I think the final three. Rhonda into Okie from Muskogee, into Johnny B. Goode, which I think, you know, you were talking about. Okie from Muskogee is this shared musical widget that someone like Jerry Garcia and someone like Mike Love can sort of find their way to meet together through that song. I think Johnny B. Goode is similar also. Of course, the Beach Boys have played that for years live. And the Dead, also. That's an old chestnut for them. And so this kind of fusion of very different bands, very different personalities, but able to bond over something as elemental and really something as perfect and universal as, you know, as Chuck Berry. There's something. To me, I feel a little emotional just thinking about that. Even if the recording isn't the greatest Johnny B. Goode I've ever heard, it's.
- [50:05]
Alex Papademus
The last moment that people sort of in the rock and roll scene are gonna have this shared history in a way where they all kind of remember where they were when they heard Johnny Be Goode, right? It's sort of like you have that process. And the Beatles are really important in the Dead becoming the Dead, like, the moment of them, you know, sort of, you know, like Phil Lesh seeing Hard Day's Night is like a big, you know, transformative moment for him. And he's changes and starts growing his hair out. You know, like, everybody sort of has that. And so they can still kind of fall back on this connection. And, like, they're about to. You know, everybody's kind of about to scatter to the winds culturally. Right? Like, as people come along now, like, they're the. The more people sort of enter the rock scene in the 70s, like, they maybe, you know, aren't going to have that, you know, so it is kind of like. It is beautiful to hear them. To hear them do that. Just find that it's a lingua franca. And, like, Chuck is obviously the way in for everyone.
- [51:01]
Ian
Totally.
- [51:02]
Evan
I want to say some things in a sort of apology. I feel like I was a little too harsh earlier on. But I just think that, you know, the main thing that maybe made me feel that way was when I put this on to just kind of listen to it and vibe throughout the day. No complaints about the Dead Set at all. I just want to make very clear. But by the time it got to the Beach Boys, it's like those breaks in between the songs which just like bring the momentum, any momentum they generated to a screeching halt. The part where he describes that he's got a Moog sympathizer makes a nifty little siren sound sound effect. Just like. Okay, like, so that one little cool thing, that little effect is now it's like the magician just giving away the trick before. Before it happens, then being like, let me just set it up.
- [51:59]
Ian
No one thinks it's cool. As soon as. As soon as Mike says that you're.
- [52:03]
Evan
Gonna really love this, I pull a rabbit out of a hat. Well, it's not really a. It's not really a. I don't really do it. It comes out. It's a trick. Anyway. I'm just gonna go get it now. Anyway, this one's called Riot in Cell Block Number Nine.
- [52:23]
Alex Papademus
Getting the Key Together. This little instrument I have down here.
- [52:27]
Evan
Is made by Moog and it's a synthesizer.
- [52:30]
Alex Papademus
It makes a nice siren, but I feel like you can hear that they're embarrassed. Like, you can hear that they don't really know they're. They're off, you know, not on their. On their back foot a little bit. And it's. It's interesting. And they don't. They can tell that it's not good showmanship. And so it's cutting against everything that they are, you know, that they've been doing. It's like what's been instilled in them in the striped shirt era is like a professionalism and like a crisp, like, good, like, 28 minute set, right? Like the tight, you know, all the hits. And like, the idea of. Yeah, yeah, like standing up there, tuning forever is like. That's much more like, you know, if you listen to the. A lot of Dead Boot, like, it's like you hear a lot of that, like, and you hear a lot of them trying to figure it out, like, what they're gonna do and then launching into a song they played 10 million times that they, you know, they're like, what are we gonna do, guys? Like, oh, maybe we'll. I guess. Yeah, I Guess we'll play Bertha. Like what? Like.
- [53:34]
Evan
Okay, like, it's just a different type of. A different mode completely. Like, the last time we talked about live Beach Boys show was that live record. What's it called? Like, Live 70. What is it? The one that has, like, six different versions.
- [53:52]
Ian
Live in London, 1969. 1970. 1976. Yeah, whatever.
- [53:58]
Evan
Yeah. Anyway, they're playing, like, so fast in that not only are they just playing the hits, but they're covering. They're basically, like, shortening all of them. They're doing, like, the CliffsNotes versions of five minute songs to make them into two, two and a half minute songs. And, yeah, they're getting in and out. They're filling every moment of silence with banter, for better or worse. And it's. It's just a picture, a portrait here of very, very different approaches to music. And it's a marathon versus a sprint or like. Or two. Two marathon runners, but doing a very different training method. Like, they both have their eye on this longevity for their group. But one is like, the guy who. You're like, how is he still doing this? He, like, only eats pizza. And then the other one is like, the one doing some kind of, like, experimental fasting thing.
- [54:55]
Alex Papademus
Literally, Mike is blood doping.
- [54:57]
Ian
Jerry is the one that only eats pizza, and Mike is the experimental faster.
- [55:01]
Evan
Yeah. And then you're always like, wow, the one who's. And yet look who's still around.
- [55:08]
Ian
You know, honestly, there's something to be said. We see this with Mike. We see this with Van Morrison, another beloved yet cantankerous figure. There's something to be said for just kind of like running on seething resentment as opposed to, like, grace and light and beauty, you know, a figure like Jerry Garcia.
- [55:26]
Evan
Yeah. And not that those. I mean, quality has a quantity. You know what I mean?
- [55:31]
Ian
Yeah, you're quoting Stalin there.
- [55:34]
Evan
Same thing.
- [55:34]
Ian
Yeah. Well, I mean, I do think it's like, it's indicative of different. A different audiences. Right. You know, the way the Beach Boys play versus the way the Dead play. You know, the people at a Grateful Dead show are just down to, like, vibe out and hang and chill. And, you know, the people that are going to a Beach Boys show are, like, driving in from the suburbs. And it's not a vibe and hang out and chill type of thing. It's fun. I don't know. It's a fish out of water type of thing, you know, And I think it's. There is, to me, there's a degree of, like, bravery on the part of the Beach Boys that they would even be willing to do something like this and risk seeming like such, just like fucking losers, you know, to this wildly different audience of kids who, you know, want nothing to do with him at this moment in time. But I think all in all, I think they pull it off more than they fail to pull it off, I would say. Two stars for the Grateful Dead. Meet the Beach Boys at The Philmore. He's 1971, April 27th.
- [56:36]
Evan
Out of three, of course.
- [56:37]
Ian
Out of three.
- [56:38]
Evan
Yeah, yeah. Two out of three.
- [56:40]
Ian
Two out of three. You know, it's kind of like one of those, like Abbott and Costello Meet the Wolfman. I've still got Michael Klenfinner, you know, stuff in the back of my throat. Yeah. It's like, it's Scooby Doo meets Batman type of thing. It's like, come on, this is just fun to see.
- [56:57]
Evan
It is. It is like that.
- [56:59]
Ian
Well, thanks again for joining, Alex. We'll rope you back in here when the book, when pub date comes around. Any ideas? Is it a 2025 release? 26.
- [57:08]
Alex Papademus
You know, at this point, I don't think it's 2025. I think I can say that here to listeners of Jokerman that I don't, I believe that what we found out, I feel like we talked about this, but like found out last time with this is that like, books have to come from far, far away if you're printing them in color and because they don't know how to print color books in this country, you know, anymore in the volume that they want to.
- [57:33]
Ian
So.
- [57:34]
Alex Papademus
But we'll see because we, I, I, it's going to be a different process this time.
- [57:38]
Ian
Well, from what I understand that, you know, they're bringing, they're bringing the jobs back and they're bringing manufacturing back and it's, you're, you're going to be seeing it more and more. So yeah know, maybe it'll, it'll end up working out.
- [57:50]
Alex Papademus
Yeah. I mean, look, with tariffs, this book will cost $112 a copy, which is fine. We can all afford it because. Yeah. Eggs will be so inexpensive and.
- [58:00]
Ian
That's right.
- [58:01]
Alex Papademus
You know how it's gonna, how it's gonna go. So, you know, but yeah, look for it and you know, that'll be, it would be my pleasure to come back and I'm sure John would love to return as well.
- [58:15]
Ian
Beautiful. Well, we'll see you guys then. Until then, you know, don't you dare miss it.
- [58:20]
Evan
No, that's not what we say on this one.
- [58:23]
Alex Papademus
Until then remember to not make a party out of loving.
- [58:42]
Ian
Happy.
- [58:51]
Alex Papademus
Go.