Jon & Russ Taking Your Questions LIVE from South Carolina!

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Jonathan Shuttlesworth Podcast

Episode: Jon & Russ Taking Your Questions LIVE from South Carolina!
Date: April 9, 2026
Host: Jonathan Shuttlesworth
Guest: Pastor Russell Johnson (Pursuit NW, WA)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode is a live Q&A session with evangelist Jonathan Shuttlesworth and his close friend, Pastor Russell Johnson, broadcast from South Carolina. The bulk of the episode focuses on current world events through a biblical lens—especially the conflict involving Iran and Israel—followed by candid, in-depth answers to audience questions about ministry restoration after moral failures, the importance and nuances of spiritual authority and mentorship, perspectives on Israel, church leadership, and practical church growth.

The tone is unfiltered, humorous, sometimes brash, yet deeply passionate about both spiritual truth and practical church life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Iran-Israel Conflict in Biblical & Political Context (00:14–15:00)

• Jonathan kicks off with a rapid-fire breakdown of the current Iran conflict, referencing briefings from a CIA contact.
• Ten-point summary covers regime stability in Iran, the role of the IRGC, US policy, Kurdish involvement, and Israel’s strategic partnership.
• Lively analysis of why US-Israel partnership is critical for American military interests and regional stability.
• Critique of American impatience and the fallacy of “quick wars,” featuring a pointed and comedic Nick DiPaolo clip.
• Dismisses the idea that American support for Israel is the only reason for Iranian hostility:

  "Iran's not mad at us because we're with Israel ... we're a white devil, American devil. Anybody that's not Islamic is going to get killed. So it's a stupid take from a stupid lady." (Candace Owens discussion, 06:55)

• Mockery of anti-Israel takes from influencers, with pointed, sometimes off-color humor.

2. Q&A: Restoration After Ministry Failure (17:30–40:00)

• Q: If a leader falls into sin, how and when should they be restored to public ministry?
• Jonathan: Restoration is contextual—the type and gravity of sin, genuine repentance, and transparency matter.
  • “There’s a drastic difference between a guy that got in problems sexually once ... and somebody that used their position as a Christian leader to coerce ... That’s a different level of wickedness.” (27:38)
  • “Adultery leaves a stain that’s never erased ... forty years later, what was the headline?” (22:43)
• Russell: It’s not “one size fits all.” Authentic repentance is key, and restoration should come from those close to the situation, not outside critics.
  • “There’s oftentimes a path back for folks, but that has to be dealt with on a localized level by people who have access to accurate information.” (26:31)
• Highlights the natural consequences of sin—not just spiritual, but social and reputational.
• Exhorts fallen leaders to “go somewhere no one knows you and build the Kingdom,” rather than jockeying for status.

3. Questions on Spiritual Authority & Mentorship (63:55–78:00)

• Q: What's the difference between mentors and spiritual fathers? How do you avoid abuse of authority?
• Jonathan: Warns of "spiritual father" abuse prevalent in charismatic and African church cultures—watch out for grooming and manipulation.
  • “Mentorship does not involve ... going back to a minister’s home ... ‘You’re like a daughter to me’ ... you don’t have relationships like that as a man in this day and age because too many people have screwed it up.” (63:55)
• Russell: Equally critical of “cultish” dynamics:
  • “When I start to hear language ... ‘I’m just everybody’s replacement dad,’ that is an ecosystem ripe for abuse ... it's weird.” (73:16)
• Both favor humility, boundaries, and integrity—leaders shouldn’t expect handouts or special treatment from churchgoers:
  • “You have a Bible and I’m carrying it ... I don’t need an armor bearer.” (68:47)
• Practical tip: Always pay for services/labor to avoid future resentment or allegations.

4. Theological & Practical Questions about Israel (41:01–63:55)

• Q: Since Israel is God’s people, must I support everything they do?
  • Russell: No, but understand God’s covenant with Israel is based on HIS faithfulness, not their (or our) morality.
    • “When God makes covenant, it’s to prove a point about his immutable character and his ability to preserve a people unto himself.” (41:01)
  • Jonathan: Points out hypocrisy in holding Israel to a higher standard than its surrounding nations.
• Replacement Theology: Both fiercely reject the idea that the church “replaces” Israel in God’s plan, explaining Israel’s prophetic role (future mass conversion, 12 tribes, etc.).
• US Aid to Israel: Dissects criticism of US-Israel financial and military relationships; most aid comes back as US military contracts.
  • “We give 3.8 billion to Israel and that allows us ... to have their air force there. Otherwise, we’d be spending much more to have three aircraft carriers.” (59:51)
• Anti-Jewish Conspiracy Theories: Utterly rejects them, points out that people who hate Israel also hate Christianity and godly values. Urges listeners to “leave their echo chambers” and connect with real people.

5. Building Distinct, Flourishing Churches: Lessons & “Secret Sauce” (92:06–129:30)

• What really grows a church?
  1. Sunday Experience is Critical:
     • “Make your services as exciting and powerful and impactful as possible ... that’s going to solve about everything.” (99:52)
  2. Be You:
     • “The anointing of God doesn’t rest on who you pretend to be, it rests on who you actually are.” (119:00)
  3. Don’t Copy Anyone Else’s Formula:
     • “You get what you preach for ... God is creative enough to download specific strategies into specific churches.” (117:00)
  4. Open Your Altars, Minister Personally:
     • “Don’t just talk, minister to people ... churches don’t do that, that’s the first thing they cut out in the 80-minute service model.” (122:30)
  5. Church Government/Structure Matters:
     • Russell: “Handle bylaws and government early ... don’t wait until there’s a problem.” (97:08)
• Discipleship:
  • Real discipleship happens through revival culture and weekly spirit-filled services, not just class tracks or programs.
    • “If you attend my church on a regular basis, there is a 0.0% chance your life will be the same 90 days after you start attending.” (107:41)
• Practical Encouragement:
  • Make church a “voice of victory and encouragement”—people return where their lives are lifted.

6. Candid, Relatable Leadership Advice (102:02–131:53)

• Don’t Overvalue People’s Approval:
  • “You just realize over time it’s an impossibility. Jesus couldn’t do it. Let people think whatever they want ... just let it go.” (92:06)
• Know Your City/Context:
  • “You need to be in the right city. If I started a church in Seattle, I could have 30 people; Pittsburgh's my place.” (114:07)
• Pastors Must Be Leaders:
  • “Be someone ... people can back, proud to have as their pastor. Be out in front, have something to say ... more than ‘let’s just pray for all the crazy things going on in the Middle East.’” (128:49)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Jonathan:
  “There’s a massive difference between someone who messed up and someone with a 20-year pattern of wickedness. You didn’t make a mistake, you’re kind of an evil person.” (30:58)
  "You have a Mercedes church? You have a bicycle church." (71:47)
  “Church is often answering questions nobody’s asking.” (122:30)
• Russell:
  "You get what you preach for. Organizations have accents. What’s yours—as it pertains to worship, preaching, announcements?" (119:00)
  “Camouflage altar calls lead to camouflage Christians.” (125:46)
• On Israel:
  "When God makes covenant, he didn't ask your permission or your opinion. It proves his immutable character." (41:01, Russell)
  “If you’re holding Israel to a higher standard than their neighbors, but not holding the others to any standard—you’re just being a hypocrite.” (47:03, Jonathan)
• On Church Growth:
  “Momentum covers a multitude of sins.” (97:08, Russell)
  “Make church something people can’t wait for—and never, ever leave on a low note.” (99:52, Jonathan)
• Cultural Humor:
  “You don’t have a Mercedes church. You have a bicycle church.” (71:47, Jonathan)
  “I want a spiritual father, not a sobriety coach—I’m six months older than you!” (73:16, Russell)

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Time-Stamped Highlights

• 00:14–15:00: Geopolitical rundown of Iran-Israel war, anti-Israel backlash, and American policy analysis.
• 17:30–40:00: Ministerial restoration after failure: repentance, trust, and consequences.
• 41:01–63:55: Israel’s place in Christian theology, US policy, and criticism of anti-Israel sentiment.
• 63:55–78:00: Mentorship vs. spiritual fathering, dangers of manipulation, church culture abuse.
• 92:06–131:53: Practical church leadership, discipleship, maintaining vibrancy, being a strong, present leader.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a lively, unscripted masterclass in navigating both spiritual and practical leadership in modern ministry. Jonathan and Russell combine biting wit with decades of experience, offering actionable advice, theological clarity, and a call for authenticity and courage. Whether you’re a church leader or a curious listener, you’ll leave with a clearer view of today’s cultural battles, the complexity of ministry restoration, and the “secret sauce” that grows strong, healthy churches: be led by God, focus on people’s real needs, and minister with boldness and joy.

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Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Welcome to the Jonathan Shuttlesworth podcast. To stay connected, go to revival today dot com.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And now here is evangelist Jonathan.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Well, welcome to South Carolina. We're live for the final day here in Greenville. I'll be in Woodruff tonight for the final night with my best friend in the whole world, Pastor Russell Johnson. Oh, Lori, Luke's on in the comments, the Lord says take back your home. You've been drinking espresso all morning watching Braveheart. Take it easy. William Wallace, me and Ross taking your questions live from South Carolina, of course. First we want to cover the war in Iran. I'm gonna bomb the out of them. I don't care. Yes. Here's what you need to know. So this was sent to me by a friend of mine in the CIA who helped me with the Ukraine, Russia thing to let me know what's going on full screen. 10 things you should know about the situation in Iran. The regime still controls the country. The Revolutionary Guard has not defected or joined calls for domestic reform. So there's no power vacuum yet. Okay, there's no power vacuum yet. The Mullers still hold the core level levers of power. The IRGC remains the decisive force. And again, when I put this on Twitter, people, Trump's going to do that. I'm not telling you, I telling you what's where we're at right now. This is not a criticism of Trump or anything. The IRGC remains the decisive force as long as the Revolutionary Guard stays loyal, the regime survives. The Kurdish entry into hostilities could change the equation. Their involvement introduces a new variable in the conflict. So like Iran, arms like 11 year olds in Palestine. We're arming the Kurds so that we don't have to send the military because George Bush screwed up so bad in the early 2000s and everybody's a little skittish about sending troops there. Like we're going to be there for 25 years. So they can't really do that. But the Kurds alone cannot defeat the irgc. There's the problem. Without outside backing, they are outmatched militarily. US Policy number six, US Policy remains mostly rhetorical. So far it has been more signaling than direct support, capable of severely weakening the Guard. Seven, Washington is fighting from a distance. Limited war powers and the desire to avoid American casualties constrain action. I mean, you see everybody freaks out if we get, of course you don't want any soldiers to die, but you lose one of the last six and people freak out. So, you know, thanks to Bush again, Trump, Trump's a little hamstring on being able to commit troops. Eight, the conflict may burn out quickly if conditions remain the same. It could fizzle within a couple of weeks as momentum fades, so that's good news. Nine, the regime still sees a path to survival because the US has not ruled out the current government remaining under certain conditions. However, that was last night, and Trump issued a statement on that this morning, probably for that reason. 10, Israel is an ally, but they're a tough one, as they are fully dependent on the US but take little direction, if at all, which causes the US problems in the overall region. Back to me, okay, so again, Nick DePaul is going to have something on this that I'm going to play this, this thing that happened in, like, the last 18 months, where it became very popular to hate any partnership we have with Israel. You're kind of stupid, because Israel's carrying out our dirty work over there. They're the reason we don't have to commit troops necessarily, and they helped us accomplish all our objectives. So there's. What's going on. Let's check it a little more, and then we're taking your questions live. If you want to go on my Instagram. Jonathan Shuttlesworth. No, no, at J.D. shuttlesworth. And you go on my story, you can submit a question there. You can submit it on X and we'll pop it up, and me and Pastor Russell get you some answers. Let's. Let's check the news a little bit how this war started. This will help you understand it. Go ahead with me. Yes, I made a mistake. Sounds good to me. Forget it, Forget it, Forget it. Not very often he apologizes. Okay. Okay. Oh.

[Guest or Co-host]

What?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Why are you doing that? Nothing. Why. Why would you do that? Come on, buddy. Get him, get him. Choke him. Choke him. So if you. If you. If you have trouble understanding geopolitics, that'll help you a little. Next. Okay. I like Nick depal. He had a good take on this anti Israel backlash. As an Italian roll it.

[Guest or Co-host]

When were. When did we start putting expiration dates on wars?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

You see what I'm saying?

[Guest or Co-host]

How about growing up America? It's a very fluid situation, as they say, right? And in the end, it's good for you. Unless you don't believe that. So what do you give a shit if it takes six weeks or six months?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah.

[Guest or Co-host]

And you go, well, Trump promised. Yeah, he has to, because you guys are babies. You want seriously American public. You're like fifth graders. You fucking. You want everything tied up in a bow, just like when you watch Law and Order. They fought they solve the crime in an hour.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

It's always a white guy.

[Guest or Co-host]

Of course it's wolf. Dick Wolf. Yeah, propaganda anyways, but you get my point. Grow up. If you want everything with a bow on it or. And you people on the right. Are you shitting me? This guy hasn't done enough in the last year for you to back him to the hilt. He's taken a bullet in the face and had his life threatened how many times? Give him a little slack.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah, they won't because of Israel.

[Guest or Co-host]

Yeah, but here's my Israel take on that. Did it ever. I love this whole thing that oh, Bibi's playing Trump.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

He's cooking.

[Guest or Co-host]

Bibi's playing Trump like a violin. You ever think that maybe our long term interests intersect and we're getting stuff out of it working with Israel?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah.

[Guest or Co-host]

I mean if Israel wasn't even in it, the Iranians would still be maniacs and threaten to kill us. Yeah, because the Islamic they want to take over the world. That's their long term goal.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Right?

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Even if Israel.

[Guest or Co-host]

Israel wasn't there. We're going to have to deal with them at some time. So not. So why not them when you have somebody on your side like Israel f And then if Israel it turns out that they were trying to us we take care of them.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Very Sopranos like take But I think that's helps you understand it. Next. Do not join or remain in the. Okay. This is Candace Owens. Do not join or remain in the United States military. So call for treason. Trump has betrayed America and expects you to die for Israel. There is no honor and being led by dishonorable men to. To your death. Former Israeli Defense Minister Benny Gantz declares that he won't rule out American boots on the ground. That Iran. Every US service member needs to see this to understand is calling the shots. I will say if I could address Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu and the people they send over. It's not the smartest when you talk like that because that's already your problem with having full American support. And when you're, when your defense guys start saying what our troops are going to do, you should kind of shut up. But Candace Owens, you know a call for everyone to leave the military. What Nick said is true. Iran's not mad at us because we're. We're with Israel. We're. We're. We're a white devil American devil. Anybody that's not Islamic is going to get killed. So it's a stupid take from a stupid lady. Next. Iran delays naming new Leader out of security concerns. Yeah. Because it's just instant death. If you get named the new leader, you're dead in 120 minutes. Next. Alaska was installed at 3:30 and dead by 5:30. Make Iran great again. Donald. John Trump is his middle name John.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Not sure.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

John slipped out. There will be no deal with Iran except unconditional surrender. So that takes care of my, my buddy from the CIA's point point that that's kind of a weakness. After that and the selection of a great and acceptable leaders, we and many of our wonderful and very brave allies and partners will work tirelessly to bring Iran back from the brink of destruction, making it economically bigger, better and stronger than ever before. Iran will have a great future. Make Iran great again. Miga. Make sure. Thank you for your attention to this matter. President Donald J. Trump. Next. An excellent update on the war and I ran from a credible source. So here's another group. Bill Ackman tweeted out who's investment guru. Let's read it. Continue. Iran's missile salvas have declined but Turan's kill chain remains intact. So yeah, next. Keep going. I'll just do the bullet points. Not a big reader. Targeting Iran's long range strikes. Strike deterrent launcher attrition and prelaunch drone strikes has gone well. 3. Iran's emerging strategy. Degrading the sensor layer and widening the battle space. I don't know what that means and I don't have time to read it. The wild card Hezbollah enters the war. Yeah, that's going to be a real problem. Bunch of guys in mismatched uniforms in 1984 Toyota Tacomas. 5. What to monitor in the second week of the campaign. All right, I'll read the bullet points full screen. A further decline in the pace of Iran's missile and drone salvos could indicate a significant degradation of the Islamic Republic strike capacity, especially if Tehran stages fewer than 30 launches per day. You can turn the heat up a little bit in here because I know Pastor Russell is is not dealing with the same amount of body fat as I am. I envy him. Any friction within Iran's security apparatus, especially between the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and Artesh. What's our test? Never heard of it. Could indicate growing. It sounds like a hookah lounge. Growing dissension within the regime's ranks, defections, desertions or the erosion of discipline within the IRGC could accelerate this instability. While any further shift in Israel's. Using prophetic language, Israel's target set inside Iran, particularly toward the regime's security infrastructure could hasten domestic trouble for Iran's clerical leadership in ruling IRGC elites. Iran's attempts to widen the war geographically, including by targeting Turkey. Or Aer bajan. Aer. Aer bean. Aer bian. I think I got Azer ban. I used to know how to pronounce it. I don't know why I forgot all of a sudden. They used to advertise it on soccer all the time.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Azerbaijan.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Azerbaijan. I'll go with yours. It sounds much better. Ramping up attacks on the Gulf Arab states. First of all, Azerbaijan. Change your name. You know, we got Oman, Yemen. Keep it simple. It's with all the syllables. Look, I'm reading Leviticus. Could spell trouble for allied efforts to contain the time in trouble with. Contained the diplomatic costs of the conflict in the depth of the Gulf Arab states. Air and missile defense runs low if those nations may be forced to ration interceptors or prioritize the protection of specific areas. Just as Ukraine has in its war with Russia. Keep going. Okay, so nice update. Next. Justice the American way from the White House account which has been churning out bangers. Roll it. Wake up, Daddy. Some welcome home, sir. Strength and honor. Strength and honor. What will you do without freedom? Maverick's inbound. You can't conceive of what I'm capable

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

of finishing this fight.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah, I'm thinking on that. I'm here to fight for truth and justice in the American way. I am the danger. Time to find out. Maximum effort. Here it comes

[Guest or Co-host]

now.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

And this flawless victory. Yeah. Great job. So I ran. You can learn a lesson that fires up the truth rather than having some bearded guy reading off a piece of meat notebook paper with a freaking flag behind him. We are coming to bring death to. Yeah, we heard it for 40 years. Jazz it up a little bit. Next. Britney Spears arrested. Her lawyer claims she's innocent, but she's not that innocent.

[Guest or Co-host]

Next.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Oh, last night. Woodruff, South Carolina. Friday, 7:00pm That's Tonight with Pastor Russell. You should get here. We're near Charlotte. We're near a ton of places. Look at a map for once in your life and we'll see you tonight. 7:00pm next. Toyota. Watching the Iran conflict escalate into a ground war. Roll it. Next. Shohei Ohtani. We're in the World Baseball Classic. He's taking pitching from Chinese Taipe. So you know how this one's going to end up. Maybe the best hitter that baseball's ever seen. Roll it. Good night. Now. Tommy lights it up. It is gone

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

crazy.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Andy pitches. Andy Gamble. Nice

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

and didn't he, like, delay his contract so he doesn't take any money up front. It's all getting. Yes, it's all getting at the end.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah. You know, if I was Japanese, I'd still be nervous if I was in America and they were all hurting us into one place. Next. The devil is dead. Kind of harsh. Baba Banaras. I don't know this guy, so I'm not saying I'm calling him the devil. He could be a good guy, who knows? Head of the judiciary in Iran was eliminated. He gave the death sentence to thousands of protesters and Iranian women for not wearing burqa in hijab. Let me tell you something. Those Iranian women should not have to wear burkan hijab. And they need to start passing those out in Alabama and Mississippi and Vermont next. Okay, let's see this full screen. This is interesting. Iran missile launches during the first eight days of the conflict. So it's declining. They launched 3, 350. Day one, they're down to 15. Day eight, 294 drone swarms. Day one, 541. Day two, then they got nothing left. A trickle day down to 12. So they, they can sell they want. They're like saving their good stuff for later, but it's not, it's not looking that way. It's looking like they're out of gas. Next. I mean, they actually tweeted that, that like, you, you haven't seen anything yet. We're, we're, we're going to unleash our best stuff now. Really? That was your strategy? Have your top 150 leaders killed and everything blown up? Like now? We'll show you the rope. A dope. It's like doing the rope without boxing strategy, except your jaws shattered and both your eyes are swollen shut. Watch. Six Islamic regimes, ballistic launchers along with missiles preparing an attack on Israel were tracked by IDF and eliminated before they could fire. Take it away. Israel,

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

With all the advanced military tech that we have. I just wish that these videos were, like, in 4K with color.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah, but it's from space. Yeah, no excuse.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

No excuse.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I'm gonna bomb the out of them. It's true. I don't care. I don't care.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Why do these military videos from space look better still than some church live streams?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Oh, I know. I was thinking about that. When there's like, video trouble, it's like you realize we're now a quarter way through the 21st century. We're heading towards. We're closer to 2050 than the year 2000. And you're having glitches. You have to wonder if Hitler would have used more of a Trump style cadence if he had been more well liked. Because if Trump said that, I'm going to bomb the shit out of him, I don't care. And it wasn't like funny. And he was like, I will. But, you know, it's like they're like, hey, somebody's got to kill this guy. So again, it's all hindsight, but Hitler could have used a little more humor, less yelling. Next. Suicide bombing. In an age where drones exist. Pure love for the game. You have to respect the dedication. Afghanistan announces they will use suicide bomber battalions. If you think Israel's not blessed in the surrounding nations are not are like equal, unequal footing. You have to reckon with the technology. How are you? You guys don't even have remote detonators yet again, lisping. Going to Palm beach tan. Apparently when there's Venetian bronze and this pasty guy, you should suicide bomb your barber. Next. Mars Hill, Maine. See you there. Monday through Friday, 7pm I'm gonna, gonna see my mom and dad. Of course, you follow my dad on social media, you won't even know he had a son. But he's gonna, he's gonna show up at the meeting. 7pm Monday to Friday, 9 Maple Street, Morris Hill, Maine. Looking forward to seeing you right on the Canadian border. If you're in New Brunswick, you should come down. You've never been to anything exciting in your life. Switch it up a little bit. Next. Breaking Trump. There will be no deal with Iran except unconditional surrender. That's a game changer. Next. Roll it.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Brandon was secretly gay. Not a. Yeah, and I'm secretly Asian.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Next. This is how Tetris professionals play the game. I watched this for a long time. I won't play the whole video, but this is insane. Roll it. Hey, look at this guy. You know he'd be shooting up in elementary school if he didn't find find this game. So I'm glad he found something else to do. Get every trans kid a Tetris game. It'll save a lot of death. All right, great job. Now let's take some questions from you live. First question now. Can I get that one I sent? I want to do that one first because it was intriguing to me. Do you know what I mean? When a leader of a union. This question came from Africa. So union's like a spiritual group. Falls into false sins. Falls into sins. Falls into sin. What step should he take to come back on track or to start Preaching to the public again. I mean after repentance and confession, this, there's been so many ministries that have fallen in the beginning of this year. Yes, that was real speed, real brother. I wanted to deal with this because there's so many variables, you can't give a straight answer. It's different situationally now there needs to be discipline in all situations. But it's not the same one guy having one. Okay, first of all, he said sin. What's the sin? You know, murder is different than, I don't know, showing up late repeatedly and lying at what time you came to work. And the Bible treats it that way. When people say sin is sin. Yeah, like technically you're right. But on the other hand that's like saying like when you're at a T ball baseball game. Baseball's baseball. No, it's very different at the major league level than at the T ball level. And the Bible says not all sins lead to death. And why if all sins the same to God, did he give drastically different punishments for them in the, in the Old Testament? So like I'm not for any of this, but you do understand a guy having an affair, let's say with somebody outside of the church once, repenting before he got caught and turned himself in. That's different than somebody that you found out. What if you found out someone has been abusing sexually or coercing girls in their own church or guys for the last 20 years and he didn't turn himself in and he got caught and when he caught, he only confessed to the ones that they knew about. Then more came out, they, that he didn't confess and you find out the guy is basically a habitual psychopath. That's different. Cuz you can't trust that guy. You know, he, he, he needs some time to show whether he's a psychopath or not. That's why, that's why like groups like the Assemblies of God did two years out, if you had an affair, they want to monitor you and that. So it's, it's different. I could see, I, you know, I could see a return to ministry if the guy, if the, if the person initiates the repentance. To me it's different than someone having to answer for what other people exposed about them. And then of those people, what happens? A lot of times they, okay, we heard you were doing this with one girl, texting, affair, whatever. Yes, I did, I'm sorry. And then three more come out a few weeks later. Oh, oh yeah. And they didn't tell you, everything. So that's different. I, I, I feel like at one point, you know, if someone, if somebody has lived a lie, their whole ministry or a large decades of their ministry or a decade. Let's, let's take one thing out of the equation because people all look at this biblically and scripturally as you should. You also have to look at it from the standpoint of God looks at the heart, man looks at the outward appearance. You can do things where your reputation is finished in a place, you know, let's be practical. If I have an affair on adoles in Pittsburgh, my reputation and ministry in Pittsburgh is pretty much wrecked. No, it doesn't even have to do with God forgiving you. It's that we did that scripture when I did a, a video on this at the beginning of February. Adult. The Bible says adultery leaves a stain that's never erased. As unfair as it is that Jimmy Swaggart had an affair in the early 90s and died, what was it this year or late last year? You know, 40 years later, what was the headline?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

That, that's life. And then here's another thing I find interesting that kind of ticks me off. You know, I'm not going to be in this situation. But you know what I would do? I'd learn whatever language they speak in whatever region of Mongolia or someplace I could get a visa to, and I'd go start somewhere else where they don't know. And when they do know, there's not really a lot of Christians there, and you would have kind of a clean start. I find it interesting that everybody wants to just live their city life in America with their salary. What are you doing to build the kingdom of God? You know, so I've had this conversation with, with, with people for a while. It's like I lost my job at such and such a place. We'll go into the world and preach the gospel, but they don't, they'll do a blog. They'll do, they'll go on a 10, you know, year and a half sabbatical with pictures of themselves, boating, kayaking, horse riding. You, you literally have no desire to do anything to build the kingdom of God. You've never sacrificed anything and you're not willing to do. You could go back in the ministry. No one's going to stop you from going to Taiwan and starting a church. But you don't want to go to Taiwan. You don't want to go to Uganda. You don't want to go to Central Africa Republic. You want to be in your la, wherever you want to live in that city and stay at your country club and get your salary and not have to work at the perfume counter at Macy's. And that's the feel I get from a lot of people. It's not that they want restored to ministry, it's that they don't want to A, build anything for the kingdom of God or B, work. You know, that's how I feel. My dad did some great videos on it. I'm going to add another thing to it, but I forgot what it was.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

I think people often want like this one size fits all. Easy answer to can people be restored or what can they be restored from? Or if somebody has, you know, sexual sin in their life, can they become a pastor again or a leader again? And the reality is, is that each situation is dealing with a different set of dynamics. And you know, there's people in scripture who were restored from sexual sin and then there's also people in scripture who were destroyed because of sexual sin. And so, you know, when people ask like 10,000 foot level questions of hey, what, what can be done in this circumstance or in this situation? It's like, well, it depends on all of these dynamics that you're bringing up. Did they confess it and bring it to the light or were they caught? Did they tell you just what you thought you knew or did they, you know, come clean? Is this something that has been going on for years or decades or this was a temporary lapse in judgment? Did this involve additionally criminal behavior, just, you know, immoral behavior? There's so many different layers of nuances and dynamics that have to be accounted for that like big box answers. And so in the same way where you have some people who are perpetual critics who as soon as somebody makes a mistake, they can never be in ministry again. I think that's just as wrong as people on the other side who it's like, well, it doesn't matter what you do or how it gets done or whether or not you repent. You know, you can always just retain the mantle or the anointing that you had before. And it's like both of those positions are actually, you know, an inadequate response to individualized, specialized circumstance or situation that you need a lot of information as it pertains to that, you know, person's level of transparency and repentance and authenticity and, you know, and submission to authority and so on and so forth. And so it is hard to answer, you know, those types of questions without, you know, additional details. And that's why I think restoration type stuff is best handled by people who are closest to the epicenter of what actually went down, instead of like prognosticators on social media who are operating from, you know, a 10,000 foot view when they don't know any of the details of what actually is going on, what happened, what hasn't happened, what's true versus what's just kind of salacious falsehoods. And so I think that there's oftentimes a path back for folks, but that has to be dealt with on a localized level by people who have access to accurate information.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yes, I kind of said this in the beginning, but to restate to me, there's a drastic difference between a guy that got in problems sexually once outside of anything to do with ministry, obviously still sin. No, don't, don't misconstrue anything I'm saying, like sticking up for it or somebody that used their position as a Christian leader to coerce women or boys or whatever to take advantage of them sexually based on their position of power over their church congregation. That's like a different level of wickedness because, yeah, like, God restored David. God judged Eli's sons because they worked at the temple and helped himself to the women that were there. And. And to me, same. I don't feel like I could, you know, I'm not gonna have that person. I will never hire somebody like that. I don't trust you. The fact that you have the capacity, you know, like, like, like I finished preaching tonight, right? Some lady comes up to me crying, this changed my life. Thank you. And you, like, kind of parlay that into, like, sex. You're. You're like a really, really bad person. Whereas, yeah, it's still sin if a guy's like hanging around and, you know, unguarded time, meets a waitress, whatever. I don't know how it works. I don't really talk to people. I just like playing video games. But I mean, I've done a lot of bad stuff on Grand Theft Auto, but then you just turn the game off and go on like nothing happened. That's different to me. That's like very different. To abuse your position as a spiritual leader that way where I, I would take. I would have a much more rigorous. And then let's take this stuff, you know, for restoration. How were they? Who restored them? Their mom, right? You know, their friend. Like, I'll tell you. And again, these are all hypotheticals. If Pastor Russell got into trouble, it's. It's not really, like, ethical for me to restore him. I'm his friend. I'm not objective. You need to have. Where did they go for counseling? Who oversaw them? How much time were they off? And who oversaw them during that time? You know, I'm. Again, I'm not for any of these things. A guy gets a D. Okay. Like, there's a minister, he got a DUI one night. It was the anniversary of his father's death. I don't drink at all. I, I think it's a massive mistake. He would have, like, a lot of guys do even that are in the ministry, he'd have a glass of wine with dinner. But that night, which is why I think it's a mistake to have an open door for alcohol. It was the anniversary of his dad's death. They were in ministry together. One, two, three drinks, drives home, dui. That's not a pattern of behavior, that the guy was an abusive alcoholic, slapping people in the office and stuff. He's almost, you know, he's an older man. I get it that there's a difference to me of a guy making a mistake and a guy having. Where it comes out they've had a major pattern of behavior. You know, that guy was not an alcoholic. That guy was not a drunk.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

He.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

He messed up. And there's a difference between messing up and having like a 20 year, like someone like coming out with some of these ministries that they just like for 20 years, people came forward, they cover it up. That's. You're like, you're, you're. You didn't make a mistake. You're kind of an evil person.

[Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Does that make sense?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right? And, and I think people too have to understand that. Like, I was doing a Q and A on my Instagram yesterday and somebody had asked the question about Lonnie Frisbee, who was super instrumental in the Jerusalem, the Vineyard. And like, well, you know, did Lonnie, Lonnie go to heaven? And I'm like, well, I wasn't, I wasn't there when he got in. But yeah, I would presume, you know, he helped lead like a hundred thousand hippies to the Lord before he died, but he also struggled with same sex attraction and, and homosexuality and then ended up later on in his life dying of, of aids. Although he had, you know, been open about what he had struggled with and had repented of his sin, so on and so forth. There was still this, you know, cycle of natural consequence attached to this,

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

you

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

know, foothold that he had in his life related to this, you know, ongoing sexually deviant behavior. And so it's it's, and I think sometimes people are, are unaware of that. Like you even look at David's life being restored and after sexual sin, but still setting up for, you know, essentially Absalom to lead this rebellion and a ton of heartache and the later part of his, his, his, you know, kingdom in Israel being torn apart by civil war and family conflict. Like it's not, I think sometimes people are short sighted in the way that they're thinking when, when they're not like appropriately handling the things of God. It's not just like, oh my God, what would I do if somebody found out about this aberrant behavior. It's this idea that not that God won't forgive and not that you can't be restored, but the cycle of natural consequence attached to that action is going to be oftentimes mess that you've got to unpack for years or for decades. And it's just, and like you're saying the difference between a momentary lapse of judgment or something going on for 20, 30 years that people have kept under the covers and not talked about, not owned up, not been held responsible for it. You know, people don't end up skating free. Like nothing escapes God. And it's not, it's just not worth it to, you know, obviously in the long run or in the short run, regardless of restoration, it's just, it's not worth it to plant minefields in your own harvest field and then just walk over them and blow up your whole life. I mean, it's just not like calculate the risk assessment here. It's not worth it.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Right? And, and what he said is true. And I, you know, obviously sin depraves people's minds so they don't think straight. But there's a law. It, there's a spiritual law. Be sure your sin will find you out, right? It is impossible to cover sin. There's a law that when you sin, if, if you don't confess it to God and get his clemency, then it will. No one can hide sin. I mean, watch Forensic Files. It's insane how people get caught. Somebody just happened to be walking by the park and saw and noticed the license plate and thought it was odd the van was there and wrote it down and it gets solved. You know, it is foolish to think you, you can hide your sin, but you, you know, people get familiar with their sin, they think it's like, okay, they get around. And of course you get around theology that we all sin and that kind of stuff, then you don't even have like an abhorrence for it. But this has been happening so much that I just, I like this question. Ascending from Africa. It's a great question and I feel it definitely it has to be taken case by case. I, I'll tell you something I don't, like a lot that I'm here now is like, don't, don't. Shame. I'll tell you how you can tell somebody has no repentance when they're like yelling at the people that found out. You know, a guy gets in the pulpit. Many of you heard I had an affair. I, we all sin. Don't. Don't stand there and throw rocks at me when some of you are involved in some stuff too. Amen. Like, okay, you're not, you're, you're not sorry. You're like on your way to hell and like proud of it. I, to finish off another thing that I said, it's like one, one person that I talked to before, they said, what should I do? I said, I'll tell you what I would do if I was you. I'd go to Canada or Europe and preach. Because even if you went to Belgium and started a church and they found out you had had an affair, there's nowhere to go to church there they'll give you a pass. They'll be thankful that you came to Belgium and started a spirit filled church where people, but nobody will do it. People actually don't want to do anything to build the kingdom of God. Your average minister has no interest in building the kingdom of God. I know that's a harsh statement, might sting a little bit to hear it, but that's why, you know, why are you not going out of your mind that you've been in the Same building for 30 years and haven't outgrown it? Why is there no desire to expand the kingdom of God? So that's what I have to say on that. What do you have to add?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Well, and I think too like what I look for when people have made a mistake and they're, you know, you know, communicating that they're interested in restoration is what are they motivated to be restored to. You know, when somebody's first question is like, how soon can I get back in the pulpit and preach? Or what do you think is going to happen to my paycheck? Or you know, those types of things, it's like, it's not that, that can't be an ancillary or a tertiary concern,

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

but the fact that it came out

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

of your mouth the first Thing.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Not like, hey, could you help step in and save my marriage? How do we communicate this to our kids? How do I do everything in my power and on my part to help clean this up? When the motivation is like, I just can't wait to get back into that position of influence or power or leverage, it's like you actually haven't learned the lesson. And what I found is with people, like, when people are genuinely, like, interested in restoration, you almost have to be the person who talks them back into the pulpit. Like, they're not operating with this, like, hungry for position, hungry for platform. It's like this brokenness, contrition, humility, you know, almost dark night of the soul type. You know, just like, I don't know what happened. I got overwhelmed. I got overcome with sin. I'm an idiot. I made a mistake, man. I'm just hoping I can salvage things with my wife. I'm just hoping I can be a good dad for my kids. And so I think you can tell a lot by how people respond.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I agree.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

In that first 48, first 72, it reveals the motive of the heart. What, are you actually sad that you lost?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I am. You know, I. I don't know. I probably should leave this first part out because it gets to everybody. I'm. I'm saying this to give context to what I'm about to say. I was never a fan of Carl Lentz. Like, when what came out about him came out, I wasn't surprised. Joe Rogan was looking at pictures I want to show, going like this. This guy's involved. You know, it's pretty sad when an unsafe podcast person can look at pictures of you. Like, this guy. This guy's, like, sleeping with chicks in the church for sure. He's got. He's wearing. He's shirtless with his shorts down, like, as low as they can go without. Without showing your privates. I saw that. Having said that, you got it how. What he did after his problem, he did show. He didn't try to, like, rush back in the pulpit. Do you not think if Carl Lentz would have just left Hillsong and started Carl Lentz assembly in Manhattan, he'd have had a ton of the people would have followed him over. It's not like he made a living preaching on holiness and, like, betrayed everyone. I don't think most of the people in that church cared about. About his morality anyway. But he didn't. He didn't say, all right, Brian Houston, if you want, then I'll show you. He's actually Shown, like, a great deal of humility and been really slow. Actually, he hasn't come back to preach still. Right?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right. Yeah.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

And that was pre Covid, right? Yeah.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

It's been years.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I'm not saying you have to wait that long. I'm just saying, like, that actually was a shocker to me because I don't know anybody. I can't think of anybody that's shown more humility and, like, not trying to. He did do the thing Russell said. That's why I thought of him, like, I want to make sure I don't lose my wife and kids, and that's all he's done. So I'm not saying you have to never go back in or even take as long as Carl did, but it's it. It should be people having to coax you back to preach, not you fighting people to get back into the pulpit.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Correct.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

And, you know, dismissing your overseer, that was supposedly your spiritual covering, but because you didn't like the restraints they're putting on you, you kick them out and go get another overseer that'll like, let you do whatever you want. I would look at all that stuff next. Since Israel is God's people, does this mean I have to support everything they do? That is a great question that I'm seeing a lot lately, and I'll let somebody that you're going to hear the best answer from on that question from Russell, take it.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

You know, the answer to that question is, is no. But I think that, you know, the question itself represents, like, a false premise. You could say, since, you know, I could say, since Maria is my wife, does that mean I have to support everything that she does? It's like, well, you know, you know, of course not. And the fact that God made covenant with Israel in the Old Testament, reaffirmed that covenant with the future nation of Israel and the Jewish people in the New Testament, especially by virtue of the Pauline literature. It doesn't mean that, you know, you as a believer or us as, you know, Christians who are part of the church in America have to necessarily co sign, you know, every single thing that Israel does. Every time I do a Q and A, I get these questions where people will say, well, don't you know that Israel has abortion and Israel is pro gay marriage? And it's like, yeah, you know, I do know that, and so is the country that you live in. But when God makes, you know, covenant with Israel first through the, you know, chief patriarch Abraham, it's not based on the future morality of the laws of the Nation state. It's based on the fact that God is determining within himself to make covenant with a people and in doing so it proves his sovereign sustaining power. We're talking about a country filled with sand the size of New Jersey that has somehow outlasted and out survived being surrounded by majority Islamic nations representing hundreds of millions of people who are constitutionally committed to their annihilation. The only nation in history to go out of existence and then come back into existence in accordance with bible prophecy in 1948. You know, you just look at some of the like historical facts and it leads you to the conclusion that somebody is making covenant with this nation. You know, somebody's hand is on this nation. Of course as believers we read in the scripture and we know that it's the Lord's hand, but, but it doesn't mean that everything that they do is going to, you know, somehow line up with our, you know, Western notion of New Testament morality. It's like that that's not. God doesn't make covenant with Abraham and then the nation of Israel because in the year of our Lord 2026, the laws on the books of the nation of Israel are going to be tantamount or parallel to, you know, Old Testament ethic. God makes covenant with Israel to prove a point that when I raise somebody up, there's no objection from man, there's no objection from another nation, no objection from another totalitarian government that can take them out. When I make covenant with a nation, their lineage is preserved by virtue of the fact that I am a covenant keeping God. And so in the same way that because your spouse is your spouse, that doesn't mean you have to agree with everything that they do, or your pastor is your pastor, your kids are your kids, you don't have to agree with everything they do. It's like nobody is making that argument. And when you substitute the word Israel for any other type of relationship that you have, the entire question falls apart because it's a false premise. No, we're not saying that. If you believe in covenant, it means you have to co sign on every single thing that Israel has done, you know, in the last 24 months. What it does mean is that you understand that when God makes covenant, he's not, he didn't ask your permission and he didn't even ask your opinion. When God makes covenant, it's to prove a point about his immutable character and about his ability to preserve a people unto himself. And that Paul later writes in the book of Romans that there will come a Day where all of Israel will be saved. And when Christ returns. Christ is not returning as a Gentile, he's returning as a Jew. He is the Jewish Messiah. Salvation is of the Jews, first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. So all of these things are not about God. Like saying, I like this group of people more than I like this group of people. God is making a point. I am the covenant keeping God. I uphold my word even above My name. When I make a promise, I intend to keep it. All the promises of God are yes and amen. If you can find a place in history where God has broken his promise, then the entire premise of Scripture falls apart. So God is deadly serious about covenant. And covenant is not based on our morality, it's based on His. Which is why Paul says that even when we are unfaithful, he is faithful. The calling and gifting is irrevocable and without repentance. You know, we apply that broadly to like Christianity, but Paul is writing that more contextually to the Jewish people. And so it's, it's, you know, when people like get on Google or Wikipedia and they're like, well, Israel has really liberal policies and you know, is this, is this really the thing that God supports? It's like you're, you're missing the point because you're fundamentally misstating the premise of covenant. God makes covenant with Israel to prove that even when we are not faithful, even when we miss the point, God is still faithful to fulfill his word because he's purposed within Himself in eternity's past to do exactly what the scriptures have communicated that he is desiring to do. And so, no, you don't have to support everything. You don't have to support anything. But, but God is the one who, who keeps his covenant. God is the one who watches Jerusalem, which is still the apple of his eye. Jerusalem is still the most hotly contested piece of real estate in world history with, you know, three major religions all laying claim to it.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

And you know, you can't say Israel doesn't matter anymore. Which I'm saying, you know, that's passed away. Well, okay, where's Christ going to touch down?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah. Not Missouri.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Where is he going to set up his literal kingdom? Why is the whole world focused on that little piece of land and has been from Bible days till now? It's, it's, it's because the devil knows that's where everything's going to go down. The Bible prophecy doesn't revolve around Washington D.C. it revolves around Jerusalem. And that's, that's where Christ is going to return and set up his kingdom. I feel I like what Amber Starkey said from our church. Here's, here's what I would like everyone to do. Whatever you're going to say about Israel, apply the same thing to the surrounding nations. Why do we support Israel? Did you know they don't even, they don't even allow churches there? Okay, now do Jordan, now do Oman, now do Iran, now do Saudi Arabia. So you're not back in Israel because they're, they, you know, they're not Christian and they're, they're liberal. How about the surrounding nations do this, Drape yourself in an American flag or a Christian flag and walk around Jerusalem and let me know how it goes. Should be okay. And then do it in any, do it in Palestine.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Beirut, Lebanon, anywhere you're gonna die, you will die that day. At least be kidnapped. Any of those countries. So why hold Israel to a standard that you're not holding any of the surrounding nations to? Because you have to back somebody.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah. And Christ is, you know, land is not agnostic in scripture. We have in the west like a chronically low view of church. And so therefore we have like a low view of land. But the Bible doesn't. Christ is returning to the Mount of Olives. When he lands on the Mount of Olives, it will split in two. He will walk down across the, the Kidron Valley in through the eastern gate. You know, he will sit in on a throne in Jerusalem for a thousand year millennial reign of peace. All of world history will culminate in, in the holy city of Jerusalem. That is not by accident, that's not by cosmic incident. That is not somehow an ancillary detail. Think about how many times, you know, Jerusalem in specific is mentioned not just in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament even. It says of Jesus, like in the triumphal entry, he set his face as a flint towards Zion and refused to be moved. And so whether you like it or not, all of history kind of culminates in the holy city. And when Christ returns, he's returning to a geographic location like that has an address with a zip code. And there's a reason why it's so hotly contested. And even where the Dome of the Rock is being built on the ruins of the Second Temple and all of these types of things, it's like, yeah, this is more than just fighting in the Middle east over oil. There is something spiritually intrinsic about what's happening in the geopolitical Space in the Middle East. And you know, I think we ignore it to our own peril. What God said about preserving a people for himself, namely Israel and the Jewish people will prove to be true. The nations of the earth in the final battle will gather against Israel to destroy her. And Christ will descend with his angels and the church.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

And he's going to back Israel and

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

he's going to bet. Yeah, and it's not. And there's no UN that's going to vote on it. The World Bank's not going to vote on it. There's going to be no international law. There's not going to be Candace Owens. There's not going to be a podcaster talking about it. Christ will defend his people. You know, the first time he rides into Jerusalem is on a donkey. The next time he comes into Jerusalem is on a war horse to defend Jerusalem. So, you know, whether people like it or not, the Bible says what it means. It means what it says.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah. Okay, so here's like the kind of question you get. I'm not. Aren't Christians the children of God? Now Abraham's blessings are ours. Yes, but you're conflating two things. We're not saying because you have Israeli citizenship, you can bypass the blood of Jesus Christ to go to heaven. You know, you, everybody that Jesus preached to repent, basically everybody was telling him, he was talking to, he was talking to the Jews and Israel. But that land and nation and because of his covenant with Abraham is important to God. When you start saying that Christians have replaced the Jews, you start having major problems in end time Bible prophecy because there's. The whole nation of Israel will turn to God when they realize that the Antichrist, I mean, if you got problems with Israel now, you're going to have more problems with them. They will be the ones that receive the Antichrist as their Messiah. But then when he breaks their treaty with them, his treaty three and a half years in, then they realize they've been had and not 12,000 from every tribe get saved. The whole nation, because you notice Jews do everything in a unit. Look at the voting. It's like everything is as a unit. So as they've unilaterally rejected Christ, the veil gets removed. When the Antichrist betrays and they turn to Christ as a unit, then 12,000 evangelists from all 12 tribes, 144,000 Jewish evangelists will begin preaching on the earth. So knowing those scriptures, how are 12,000 evangelists from every tribe going to be risen up if you know, well, the Jews now aren't even the Jews of the Bible. Okay, then you got a problem. A, Bible prophecy is fictitious. B, God was unable to keep his promise to Abraham's descendants because there is. Don't. Don't mix the two things. You have to get saved through the blood of Jesus.

[Podcast Host]

You.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

You can't get saved just because of your genetics or heredity. But God has an allegiance. Put it like this. You see, me and Pastor Russell are friends, right? Terrible example. And it's not going to happen. But let's say his son. I made a covenant with him. I'm always going to take care of your family. I just want you to know that. And he leaves. He. He ends up passing away. His son ends up on drugs. His son hates God. His son has no money. His son is a blasphemer. But he's Russell's child. And I told Russell that I'm gonna. I'm gonna take. See after your family. He can curse me to my face. He can do whatever he wants to do. I'm gonna look after him because I made a deal with his father. And that's what God did to Abraham. I'm gonna look after your people.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yes.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

For the rest of time. Which is why even when they got majorly out of line, God would judge them, but the people who joined in to judge them would get destroyed. If you touch them, you touch the apple of my eye. Those promises are ours now, too. But they're not ours. Instead of them, you can't get saved outside of Christ. I says I don't have. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I don't have an Israel flag in any of my churches. I'm not. I know everything about Netanyahu, all that stuff. You don't hear me doing pro, pro Israel propaganda. I haven't been over to Israel with in this rush where they're trying to fly all the Christians over to help them, like win the social media war. I'm not interested in that. I'm not even doing that for our government. You know, I'm not just going to be like a religious mouthpiece for anybody. Trump, Trump, Israel, anybody. But it is a mistake. I mean, just take all the scripture out of it. Now that we've gone through scripture, how do you look at that country? How do you see Afghanistan launching suicide bombers and Israel having hacked the teeth of Iran?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Crazy.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

How do you not see that one country is vastly superior in their blessing to all the other nations? It's plain as day to see, and it's dumb to Curse that nation. I would not join in. And if you study the roots of it, you want to talk about Israel and how Israel controls. How about Qatar and up in Saudi Arabia and Iran, that there's money getting pumped in. Why has it gotten fashionable all of a sudden to go against Israel? They didn't come up from anywhere. They're winning. Israel admitted it. They're winning the social media war. Tucker Carlson gets all his money from Qatar now to bash Israel and go over and show how great it is in the Middle east and that it. I'm just asking questions. Why do we answer to Israel? Did you know all the money that we give to Israel? Let me get chatgpt. I don't have that hooked up here. Right.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah, it's like a fraction of how much when people say, for example, Israel influences American politics through things like aipac. Well, the amount of money that AIPAC spends on influencing American elections is a fraction of a percentage compared to how much Qatar is pumping into our elections and our university systems to the hundreds of millions and even into the billions. And if people have a problem, you know, with this conspiratorial idea of like, the Jews control the world, you're going to be real upset in the millennial reign of peace because a Jew is really going to control the world and he's going to sit on a throne in Jerusalem. And, you know, this is why Paul warns, he warns against this. Do not boast against the broken branch of Israel, because in the same way that they were broken off but will be engrafted back again, you'll be broken off and you won't be engrafted back again. And so like, Israel is not engrafted into the covenant God made with the church. The church is engrafted in to the covenant God made with Israel. And so the promises extend as a both and, but it had, you know, but like you're saying, yeah, you reject replacement theology and you know, even like the analogy that you shared, I mean, I think that even when Jesus tells the parable of the prodigal son, it's like in reference to some of this, where the Father says, my son who was dead is now alive again. You know, goes into the world and is lost, but then comes to his senses and comes back home. You know, I think this is a picture from an eschatological perspective of what happens at the end of days, because Paul talks about the national salvation of Israel. And it will be as if life back from the death or life from back from the dead. And so you know there is coming a day where Israel will see their Messiah after. Like you're saying, the Antichrist breaks that agreement of peace and there's three and a half years of chaos and the temple's desecrated. They will see the Jewish Messiah and there will be a national turn, there'll be a national salvation. And if you find yourself boasting against the broken branch of Israel, I mean, Paul is like warning against that. Like, he's like, even if you develop this inner attitude of boasting against Israel or where you think their current estate is. And by the way, Paul is saying that when they don't even have a nation, they're an occupied people by virtue of the Roman Empire. And Paul is saying even in this pitiful condition, if you find yourself boasting against them, you're going to find God turning against you. And that's a dangerous place to be.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

How much money does the United States send to Israel as aid or in other ways? Every year.

[Podcast Host]

The United States provides Israel around $3.8 billion in aid per year, primarily for military.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

What percentage of of our military technology and development and functions in the Middle east does Israel carry out?

[Podcast Host]

There isn't a public percentage of U.S. military technology or operations in the Middle east carried out by Israel. What we do know is that the US has supplied about 79% of Israel's arms in recent years. The two countries collaborate on defense technology, but the exact breakdown of operational roles is not disclosed.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

In short, there's no estimate estimate the percentage of our weapons technology and military technology that's been developed by Israel.

[Podcast Host]

While Israel is a major partner in defense collaboration, the US Overwhelmingly develops its own military technology. Israel contributes cutting edge systems, particularly in missile defense, like Iron Dome, drones and cyber security. But the vast majority of US Military tech is US Tech. Develop Israel's cont.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

How much would it, how much would it cost to operate three of our largest aircraft carriers continually in the Middle East?

[Podcast Host]

Operating a single US Nuclear powered aircraft carrier, including its strike group, can cost several million dollars per day. Rough estimates put annual operational costs per carrier strike group in the ballpark of 1.5 to $2 billion annually. Running three containers continually could be roughly 4.5 to $6 billion.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Okay, so if we had to have three aircraft carriers in the Middle east to have our planes, it would cost about $6 billion. We give 3.8, 3.8 billion to Israel and that allows us a to have their air force there. America is working with Israel. That's why. Why not? You got one nation there up until recently, that's like on your side, that'll do your fighting for you. And so otherwise Iran, like you're at Nick DePaul, say they don't want us dead because we back Israel, they want us dead because we're not an Islamic republic.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Correct.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

And so you're going to have to fight that fight with or without Israel.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And by the way, the 3.8 billion that we give, a vast majority of it, like 98% is designated funding, which means that it's not just, you know, a blank check. Spend this however you want. It requires Israel to spend that money on arms and weapons that are manufactured in the United States. So even like places like the cbo, when they've done studies on this, they say this is actually one of the most successful jobs programs that has ever been invented, you know, in the 21st century. It gives them, you know, money like a voucher. It'd be like me saying, hey, Jonathan, come preach at Pursuit and I'm Gonna give you $1,000 gift card to the Pursuit CA. It's like, well, yeah, I guess you could say I'm giving you a thousand dollars. But it's designated spending. And so it's money that they're spending on American arms that are producing American jobs. And so it's not, you know, just some sort of a handout. And not only that, but like you're saying, then they use that, those arms to do, you know, a lot of our work in the Middle east, which is, you know, will save American lives and ultimately saves American money. And so the idea that it's not a good investment to continue to support Israel, you just have to be bad at that.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Or they just tricked us into like sending billions of dollars to. First of all, it's not even that much. 3.8 billion in our, whatever trillion dollar budget isn't a big deal.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

That's one Somalian daycare.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Exactly. Think of it though. If we had to have three aircraft carriers there, it would be 40% more than the money we give to Israel. And now we don't have to have any there, that they're our base. They let us have our collaboration where instead of an aircraft carrier, we have a state the size, a place the size of New Jersey to store our weapons and munitions for a mutual goal to defend against a mutual enemy, or in this case, attack a mutual enemy. And then the thing that people say, you know, you know, you, you got videos of Jews calling Christians unclean goyim and how much they hate them and blaspheming Christ. Have you ever listened to any Islamic videos? Let me ask you this. Can me and Russell right now go on priceline.com fly to Israel and book a venue and preach? Yes, we can. Can me and Israel can. Can me and Russell fly to Israel right now and book a place to preach in Saudi Arabia? Some places actually. Now you can. But no, we can, we can freely preach in Israel. So whatever you want to say. And I know, I know they're not a Christian nation. Neither is Canada, neither is England. You know, neither is anybody else we work with. Why have this. Have you noticed there's this standard that Israel's held to that no other nation's held to? You know, Israel doesn't even like Christians. Neither does the uk, neither does France, neither is Spain. So, so what? Why do you, why do you hyper focus on one nation and you've got no care for like the Christians getting kidnapped in northern Nigeria and people that are actually attacking Christians? Let me ask you this, whatever you want to catch people on video or recording saying against Christians in Israel, what have they done to kill Christians? How many churches have Jew have Jews burned down? How many churches have Jews stormed in and disrupted the service? None.

[Guest or Co-host]

Who?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

You want to know who does the people back in Tucker. Islam does. Right. So and then they hate Jews and they hate yous. So why not since we're both hated, why not work together knowing that the other group, I mean why can't you have the same sense the Irish and Italian mafia had? We know you don't like us. We know you think, we know you think we're a lesser race. But seeing as we both want to make a ton of money off moving whiskey, let's work together against the feds. The feds are Islam, the Jews are the Italian mafia and we're the Irish mafia. It's a nice partnership. Don't wreck it. Next I'm gonna bomb the out of them. It's true. I don't care. I don't care. Explain to me the difference between mentors and spiritual fathers. Because in Africa they tend to mislead many and control many. What are their limits to a young evangelist growing under them? When should I obey and when should I disobey? Because most of the time they contradict. I'm going to tell you this. And this goes back to the first question said. This should not have to be said, but it needs to be said. When the Bible says, when Jesus said what I say to one, I say to all. No Scriptures of private interpretation. Mentorship does not Involve. I would not go back to a minister's home. Now I'm 45 and I can fight, but if I was like 16, 20, 23, and some guy says, like, you know, I want you to. I'm taking a special interest. That's how the grooming starts. You're. You're special, you know, I want you to come back and live. Come back to my house with me. You know, I would be very wary if somebody says, you're like a daughter to me. You shouldn't. You don't have relationships like that as a man in this day and age because too many people have screwed it up. It's shady. Oh, she's like a daughter to me. Yeah. She's not. She's four years young. Would you ever. When you were four. She's like a daughter to me. Yeah. With the lip injections and mini skirt. Yeah, like. Like a daughter. I got it. Where's the fat, ugly daughters that are like a daughter to you?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Like a daughter on Epstein Island.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yes. So I'd watch that because that's how. That's how the abuse of the spiritual authority goes, where it's like, you know, you're different. You know, you're anointed and I'd like to spend more time and obviously some young lady or young man, sadly as well, that had no father or. Or unsafe, dysfunctional family, and you're like the hero of that church. See, I think one of the things that's helped me, and I can't put words in Pastor Russell's mouth, but I think him too, is we're both preachers. Kids. Pastors are not to be hero worshiped and don't get in this church culture. Like, you know, that's what happened at Bethel and ihop. It's like. Like this world or like the pastor is the head of this. It's very cultish for it to get like that. There's a big world, you know, I don't have a big head. Although I do think a size seven and three quarters, that's pretty large. But I'm talking, like, figuratively. Why I don't have a big head is. Man, Jonathan, things are going great. Your churches are gonna. Yeah, great. Let's go to downtown Greenville, South Carolina, and ask a hundred people about revival Today. Church. Let's ask a hundred people about Jonathan Shuttlesworth or no one Knows you don't matter. You know these preachers. You can take your sunglasses off at the restaurant. No one knows who you are. You think you're Elvis in 1970. 5. So if it gets this culture and people that are watching from my church, that's one of the reasons I'm not around much. I mean even when I'm home, I would, I'm not, I'm going the other direction. I'm not going to be hanging around chatting people up because so many people have abused that. You're going to hear my preaching here. You're going to hear my preaching at night. I'm not being shady hanging around and hanging out. It's, it's, it, it's odd. And if I do it, it's another minister of similar age, married, with a family. You know what I'm saying? I. A spiritual father cares about you and wants to see you succeed. A mentor is someone you glean wisdom from. A, a father has a different type of relationship. But none of those things should be used to extract money or sex or favors. I fired a pastor from our church when we started revival today because I saw a Bible college students carrying his dry cleaning around. So where did you get servants from? Why are there three kids at the Bible college that are your servants?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Where do you get that from? You didn't get it from me. I'm your armor bearer. I don't have any armor. I have a Bible and I'm carrying it.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

You know, I appreciate honor. You want to honor the ministry. Sow a seed so we can build the church. I don't need, I don't need honor, honor, God. I don't. I honestly like, I appreciate it. Somebody, some, somebody from a word of faith background last night at church, handed me an envelope while I was preaching. I took it. This for you. Seat of honor. Thousand dollars. I appreciate that. It happens on its own. You haven't heard me drop one hit. You know, some of these people have been coming to this revival every night and haven't done anything to honor the man of God. Anybody that talks like that is nuts. Is it scripture? The man of God? Yes. Where was Jesus going around like, how come nobody's honoring me? No, he was level headed, friend of sinners. Go reach the lost, go build churches. Even the last question you know, should I support Israel? Having said everything we just said for half an hour, who gives a crap whether you support Israel? You think, you think the Knesset's meeting right now? Hey, Janice said she's going to support us now after she gets done doing the laundry. You're just a lady. Why are you even interested in like Geo, you know, should I support Israel? Let me ask you a question. What difference Would it make in geopolitics if you supported Israel or didn't support Israel? Why not do something that builds your family instead of involving yourself in things that have nothing to do with you? It's why your children are going to have to grow up and start from scratch and get an apartment because everybody's freaking interested in stuff that has nothing to do. Build your marriage, build your children, build your family, build your house, build your church that you go to and let all the, you know, if you're in the CIA, have some thoughts on Israel. If you're, if you're flying a stealth bomber right now, be involved, but don't get distracted with a freaking conflict a zillion miles away from you that has no bearing on your personal life. Christians are all focused and reading on everything and then they got, they don't have a thousand dollars to their name and they're 50 years old. What does that tell you? It tells you you've been spending your energy on things that have nothing to do with you. Right. So.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And you know, and when you're an honorable person, I'll take a second Red Bull, like honor. Honor finds you. You don't have to find it. This is what David says. Surely goodness and mercy will follow me. Not, not surely goodness and mercy I'm going to pursue and chase down and then force people to, you know, give me like a hallelujah handshake at the revival meeting because we don't really have

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

our people don't honor me. Yeah, maybe you haven't done anything worth honoring.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

You know, there was, there was a pastor that also dismissed from rtgp cuz we're not doing this in this movement, you know, sending texts to his congregants, challenge them to give because they're trying to raise $60,000 to buy him a Mercedes for his birthday. You have less than 200 people in your church and you're private texting people. You don't have a Mercedes church. You have a bicycle church.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Why, why are you more concerned about getting a Mercedes than you are growing your church? I'm not, I'm not against Mercedes, I'm not against Bentley, I'm not against any vehicle. But when the priority is on the guy and not the work, there's, there's, there's a problem. And people will honor you. Pastor Russell had gave you the plane and you rented the helicopter or gave you the helicopter and rented the plane

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

to use the guy from our church? Yeah, both. Yeah.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Oh, they're both. I want to see you I don't want. How are you going to get to Spokane? Let me do this to help you. I'm going to give you a Pilates jet to you, a prop plane to use in a helicopter. He didn't ask for it. People, when you're doing something for the Lord, seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. But. And all these things that you would go after, I'll add them to you. The work for the Lord produced the jet, you know, and then people don't get it. Yeah, but I'm believing for a jet for what? To taxi from your house to your church. There's no what. So you can fly around and tell people you have a jet. Just doesn't have a jet for fun. He preaches 300 nights a year. If you'll do a work for the Lord, it'll take you to another level of things coming in. But when you want the things, the ministry is almost just the guys to get to get the things. It's stupid. I would watch that stuff. Don't get groomed. You're like a daughter to me. You know, don't do that.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right. And I think sometimes too, what people misunderstand about, you know, both of us is that they'll see us on stage like communicating or preaching, and then they'll naturally assume this is the most outgoing people person ever, you know, because this is, you know, what they do for a living or what they do for their calling. But, you know, the reverse is actually true. But it's actually, I think one of like the gifts that God's given me because it's not in this day and age this, this weird type of, you know, parental relationship almost that, you know, pastors or spiritual leaders will take on with people in their church and then they end up living, you know, or developing this permission based lifestyle like adults. Hey, I just needed to come and seek the pastor's blessing. You know, my wife and I are thinking about buying like a used car for, you know, ourselves in 2026. It's like, never ask me, I don't care. I don't want to be asked. It's weird. Well, you, you've always, you know, been my spiritual daddy. And I'm six months older than you. You know, I, I'm preaching the word, you know, I'm a pastor. What I'm not in is like a live in sobriety coach that becomes the parent that you never had. And then we develop this kind of, it's like do things for people, be nice, go above and beyond. Bless people and things of that nature. But when I start to hear language, especially in charismatic circles, in regards to like, yeah, this, you know, I'm just. I'm just. I'm just every kind of everybody's replacement dad. It's like, that is an ecosystem that is ripe for abuse, like a Branch Davidian. It's weird.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

It is weird.

[Guest or Co-host]

I.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

And again, honor. You know, you got the two ditches. You got that ditch and they got the ditch that Pastor Russell and I came out of where there's dishonor shown the men of God and they don't care about them and stuff. But God will take care of you. I would. You know, if somebody does pay attention to your spirit, if something feels weird, it's wrong. You know, I'd love to have you come back to the house. You know, I want to do it. Even if it, you know. Yeah, I want to. It's situational. We have people over our house, but it's a ton of people. I don't have, like me, my wife camila and some 23 year old.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah. And if they're like asking, like, to you to give them, like, you know, private back massages, which people do when nobody's home. Could you put the sun. Suntan oil on my lower back? I can't reach.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

That's. That's kind of stuff, you know, but

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

it happens and it's freaking weird.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

That's how it starts. There's. There's a lady in the ministry, she was telling me how much she appreciated being in our ministry. She said, there's so much sexual perversion that goes on in the movement I came out of. And she said, let me tell you how it'll start. She's a. She's a female singer. She's like, the visiting pastor will come and give you a hug and go to give you a kiss, and if you recoil, then they're like, oh, okay, sorry. No, sorry, I didn't mean anything about it. But then if you don't, then they know they got somebody that's like, down the clown, that you're like, not going to put up any guards. So there are wolves in sheep's clothing. You know, it's people that blend in that are actually looking to take people out in the church. Molest affair, break up marriages. Not everyone. You have to be mature enough to be able to process this information without being. I don't trust anybody. That's why I don't trust anybody. Congratulations on playing right into the devil's hand. I don't trust Anybody either fully. But it doesn't keep me from attending church or not receiving from anybody. You have to be able to go to church and know there's wolves in sheep's clothing. But everyone is in a wolf in sheep's clothing, but they're there. And if they show those signs where they ask things that are weird, no one lives in my house with me, you know, hey, Jonathan, our teenager. Or even if they're like a young

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

adult except Christopher Robin.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah, my dog. So they're having, they're having a hard time, you know, I know if they came to live with you in a Dallas, it would like that, you know, that would really be what they need. I'm sure it would, but it's not happening. I'm not having some stray 23 year old in the bedroom next to my daughter in a zillion years. So they have sent them the Teen Challenge, which is like, should be called Man Challenge. I've never, there's no teenagers there really in their 60s. Don't, don't go into that trap. Don't let people take advantage of you anyway.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And I even tried to like, even be very careful. Like we had this experience just a month or two ago. There was an issue with the roof on my house and I needed a repair done because it was leaking. And so of course, you know, you're going to trust the people in your church, Christian business owners, things of that nature. And so I called an individual who's a contractor and I said, hey man, I got this issue going on with the house and I don't know what it is, I don't know who to call, but can I hire your company to come take a look? And so he said, sure. He came out and took a look and did a little repair or whatever and then by the time he was leaving, said, hey, you know, like this one is on me. And I was like, no, it's not. That's not why I called you. It wasn't because I wanted a favor or was asking for a favor. It's because in this environment I didn't know who to trust to have come over to my house and address this issue. And so whether you take payment or not, by virtue of my card, I'm putting a couple hundred dollar bills in your pocket, whatever it takes. Because I never want the narrative to be that I utilized my position of power or position of influence to somehow get something for free that any other ordinary person would, would have to pay for. And it's like the reason why I do that is not because, you know, I, I don't believe in allowing people to bless me or, or things of that nature. It's just that that stuff gets so weird and that kind of abuse of

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

power, even if they're okay with it at the time, a lot of times Satan will use that down the line when they get like a little offended or something. Like, you know, I did that guy's roof, he never even paid me. So for me, it's funny, like with that, with only knowing each other for two and a half years or whatever, I operate very similarly. Like, oh, why won't you let me bless you? You can bless me if you want to put something in the offering. But not this, this I'm paying for. Right. So, you know, I'll leave it with you. But I'm not taking handouts because I'm a minister.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah. And like, for example, like, people don't, people from the church don't babysit our kids for free. Nobody comes over and cleans our house for free. Like, I just. And I know that they would if I allowed them to or ask them to. I just refuse to operate like that because, yeah, you don't have to worry about what their opinion is right now in the moment. It's fast forward 10 years when you preach on something that they don't like or there's an offense. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, yeah, you know, this person expected as part of the internship that I would just come over every four days and wash their car at their house. And it's like, no, actually I'm preventing that stuff now by just refusing to, you know, number one, most of the time I just stay, you know, at home if I'm not on the road preaching or at our church preaching. So, you know, I live kind of a more naturally reclusive life anyways. But then if I'm going out, that's why if we're going out with friends and doing a meal and it's the same, you operate like this same way. This is the only time we've ever gotten into a, you know, a physically violent altercation is you're trying to pay for something or I'm trying to pay for something because we both operate the same way. If I'm. If I'm going out with friends and we're somewhere in Seattle, we're going out to a restaurant, I'm paying for the meal before the meal even starts because, you know, number one, I want to bless people. Number two, I never want anybody in my environment, to operate or to have an implied expectation that when the pastor is around, you know, you know, we have to take care of him, blah, blah, blah. Like you're saying, no, if, if, if, if you want to sow a seed, honor, bless the man of God, do whatever, give in the offering. We, we, we take it every Sunday. You know, we, we have, we have an offering every Sunday. So thank you for se generously and, and direct it to the house of God. Thank you.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Y. Will Israel go through, suffer the seven years? Yeah, the whole world will. Next. What do I look for in a spiritual covering after church split for youth group? Incomplete thought. What do I look for in spiritual covering after church split for you? You're gonna have to write in complete sentences. Next. Why did God make a covenant with Israel specifically, not another region or country? Because he felt like, like it felt like it. And that, that'll answer a lot of Bible questions. That's like, God, there's actually a scripture. I'm the Holy One and I do as I please. Right. So.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And Israel's a peculiar people. I mean, he, he, he makes covenant with them as a sign that makes you wonder. It makes the nations of the earth wonder. What is it about this tiny group of people in a tiny nation in the middle of the desert, surrounded by their enemies that causes them to not only survive but. But to perpetually thrive? And they, like, refuse to be eliminated from the face of the earth. Like, it's confusing. It causes you to wonder. That's what signs and wonders do. A sign makes you wonder, like, who is this God? What is this about covenant that's so powerful? So, you know, the reason he makes the covenant with Israel is because he gets to do whatever he wants. And it makes you ask that question, which causes you to reflect on the fact that God doesn't have to check in with your opinion before making a promise.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I'll tell you another thing that leads me not to be anti Israel. I always look at who is for something and who against who's against them. And it's like Hillary Clinton, you know, why are you for. Why are you for Clinton and not for. For Trump? Or why are you for Trump and not for Clinton? I don't know. When the satanic church came out in support of Hillary, it was assigned to me. When witches supported Hillary and put curses on Trump. I like to sometimes not be aligned with witchcraft. And then you look at, like, who, who's protesting against Israel in downtown of your city right now? Every lesbian witch. Yep. Homosexual. Anybody writing stuff online Profile, he, he, him, Rainbow flag. You know, why is there the same spirit that's aligned against godly marriage, godly sexuality, that's against everything you're for. They all hate Israel. The people that hate Israel are people that hate me unilaterally. The groups that hate Israel also hate me. So I and Israel, they don't cause me problems. Our church in California is a Hebrew school. They're super cool. I really feel like a lot of the problems with people not liking Israel and Jews and stuff people say about Israel and Jews would. I almost can tell. 99% of the time, you know, no Jews, you just, you know, like, they're like magical people that control the world and they're people, they're like, they're meet them, talk to them. They're cool. It's like people don't like black people. Like, you don't know any Howard Stern, who's not really like an inspiration for me in the ministry, but he used to have this guy on his name, I can't remember. Daniel Carver, I think he was. I forget to say his name because if I get facts wrong, it's liable. But I'm pretty sure he was like the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. So they would have him on the program and make fun of him. Howard Stern's Jewish. Huge nose, 100% Jewish, looks Jewish. Anyone knows he's Jewish, he talks about it. So Daniel Carver comes on. Now everybody thinks the Ku Klux Klan hates black people, which they do. But more the Jews are the who they. They're. They're saying is there's nothing lower than a Jew. Howard Stern's a Jew. After the third time they had him on as a guest, when they went off air, Artie Lang said he walked over to Howard and goes, hey, we're having my birthday party and it's at my ranch. I'd love for you to come as a guest. And Artie said. I said, I said to him, I thought you. I thought you guys hate Jews. And you said, there's nothing lower than a Jew. And he said, he went, yeah, but Howard's different. Yeah, he's not different. It's that when you live in friggin butt Crack, Arkansas, no offense, I'm not saying all.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Is that the real name of a city in Arkansas?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

It should be the name of a lot of cities in Arkansas and Mississippi. But when you live somewhere where you've never met a Jew and then you come up with all these things, then you meet one and you've been with Them for three hours, like, hey, come to my birthday. But you're different. No, they're all just like people that, the white people that hate black people. If all you do is watch the news and they, they or your feed and they tune you up, watch, watching all this, you know, let somebody get knocked out in a Popeyes or whatever, they're these people. You don't know any black people. Black people that hate white people. If I knew the white people, you knew I'd hate them too. You know, I was it. I'm trying to think of what town I was in. I think it was Jasper, Texas, at a Whataburger. I think it's where the Ku Klux Klan started. And then it's also where these radical black groups that hate whites are. I was at that Whataburger and I thought if I was black, I also would hate white white people. If these were the white people I knew, I don't like them either. And then, you know, if, if you're dealing with the worst of society. Walmart at 1:30am, black people, Walmart at 1:30aM, white people, Walmart at 1:30am yeah, if you're dealing with the worst, you can get people to hate anyone. If you'd actually go meet people, they're cool. I'm at a Russian church. They're great. Everybody's great when you get to meet them. I bet you I told you about going through customs in Saudi Arabia and they pulled me into the side room. We were like joking around and eating. You know, they're jihadists. It's, it's hard to hate people. You know, the Nazis had trouble with that. That's why, you know, you know, the reason the Nazis switched to the gas chambers instead of firing squad is they were certain to have a high rate of suicide among the German troops that were doing the, the squad. Because even after all the public school indoctrination and the Jews are, are lower than rats, it, they didn't like, kill, you know, you, you, you shoot them in person. There's kids and stuff. They're like, they kind of don't seem that bad to me. And they started killing themselves. So they had to depersonalize it. Go meet people, be around people, all kinds of people.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And you know, when you're, when your life sucks and you're looking for somebody else to blame, it's really easy for you to develop conspiratorial thinking because you need like a convenient whipping boy to, to, to, you know, be the, the, the, the focal point of all of your ire and all of your, you know, feelings of, like, the world is unfair. And this is, you know, this is why I'm still living in the trailer park, and this is why I've never been able to grow and develop. And this is why, you know, my taxes are so high. It's really the. I need somebody to blame because I can't ever hold up a mirror to my own life or my own failures or my own, you know, lack of, you know, socioeconomic success. There's got to be somebody to blame. So it's the Jews.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

The Jews control the world. Let me tell you something, my friend. You got in that apartment and $8,000 in debt and no job with no help from any Jews.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Correct.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

There. There was no targeted plan from Israel to. To. To keep. Put you in the economic state you're in. You suck, period. If all the Jews were wiped off the face of the earth, you'd still be broke because you're a right.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And you know what's funny? You said about, like, hey, go and meet people, because when you do, you recognize that all of these, like, little nice opinions you developed in the vacuum of social media are incorrect. You even saw this, you know, when Tucker went to Israel to interview the ambassador, huckabee, and then, you know, Huckabee just bodied him in the interview, and then Tucker is leaving, and then he's, like, tweeting out, I just got detained, you know, by the Israeli government in the airport in Tel Aviv, which was, you know, totally untrue. But then they actually released security camera footage, and Tucker's, like, doing selfies with soldiers from the idf and smiling and laughing. But then, like, later that day, getting on his podcast to, you know, talk about how, like, terrible and evil, you know, these people are. And it's like, we've. We've got you on security camera footage from three hours ago.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Everybody was nice to you.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Everybody's laughing, having fun. You're taking selfies.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I've been detained in u. S. Airports, right? As a u. S. Citizen. That's what happens in airports. You get detained. Especially international airports. What's the big deal? I. Yeah, you know, like, even that even, like, our two pilots are Iranian, the ones that did these last legs for us. They're my friends. And I had. I had a Christian when I posted the picture. Text me, oh, I better check them for bombs. They're not muslims. You're so stupid that you don't even know the difference between Persian people and Arab. You're dumb. You're just as stupid freaking little isolated person. And I'm not. Not to get into like. It's why I send Camila to private school and it's why I may send her to public high school when she gets to ninth grade. That's. I like what my parents did with me. I did Christian school up through eighth grade and then I did public high school and it like you have to be around liberals. That's why you don't hear me these lib tarts. No, actually I actually know how you believe and why you believe it. I don't agree. I think it's a weaker way of viewing the world. But I don't just dismiss you as a Democrat. Yeah, but why. Why do they feel the way they feel? I've been around them, so even them you. That's why you. That's why I have a mocking attitude towards liberals, but you don't hear me have that like vitriolic hatred that's on the rest of conservative. These liberals are. No meet them even. They're not. They're. They're all right. They're Subarus and stuff. Got a nice station wagon and tons of room in the back to haul their WNBA basketballs or whatever the heck

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

their matcha lattes and Rainforest Cafe work clothes. Leave Rainforest Cafe out of there.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

That's Russell's favorite restaurant. Loves the smell of mildew when he eats. All right, next. What's something that you used to think was really important was a really important thing to be successful in ministry that over time you realized just wasn't that big of deal. People's approval would be mine. It was like. It was like shattering. When you start off in ministry or probably anything in life, and you find out, hey, somebody this so and so didn't like, like what you did or so and so you feel your whole world revolves around meeting with them, to getting them back on your side so you can be at peace with the world again. And then you just realize over time it's an impossibility. Jesus couldn't do it. Obviously you won't be able to do it either. And just let people think whatever they want, not let it bother you and know that you're doing the right thing before God. What would be yours?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

I think for me it would be like the latest strategy. And I think one of the mistakes I made early on when we planted the church 11 years ago was like every time I heard the next coach or the next guru or the next Christian leader or the next, you know, church growth guy talk about the system they're using or the strategy they're using. It would be like, oh, yeah, that's it. That's the golden ticket. That's what we have to develop or adopt. And then I begin to realize, you know, God's creative enough to download specific strategies into specific churches, into specific geographic locations. Because there's not, you know, like a formula to this. There's broad based principles, for sure, that everybody can learn and everybody can apply. But, you know, it's like when somebody calls me and they pastor, you know, like you had mentioned in Butt Crack, Arkansas, they're calling me and going, hey, you know, we're kind of like in a similar season as pursuit is or as you guys were a couple years ago. What is your strategy? And I'm like, I'm in Seattle. Do you even have electricity in the town that you live in? Do you have WI fi? Do you have cell phone reception? You know, I'm in a major liberal metroplex on the west coast, and you're in a town of 600 in the middle of Arkansas. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't some broad based principles like principle number one, don't molest anybody. You know, principle number two, learn how to do math. You know, principle number three, it's a good idea to have money in your bank account. I'm not saying that there's not broad based principles, but my strategy for, for how I'm reaching the Pacific Northwest is almost of zero consequence to what God has called you to do in the middle of rural Arkansas. And so, you know, I think for me, I really had to go. Like, I've just got to be confident that the same God who called me to plant this church is the same God who's going to help me grow this church. And it's not that I can't learn or be inspired from other people, but, you know, it's not like I'm going. Revival today has to have a Christian elementary school because pursuit has one. And if you guys really wanted to be success, you are successful.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Do you have one?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, we have two of them.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Adoles wants to have one.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah. And it's like, I think you spend

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

all the money on fake nails.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah, it's. It's so I think for me that's, you know, everybody wants a formula because it's a shortcut and they just think, well, if I just can, you know, copy and paste. And, you know, it was funny we were doing like a new visitor meetup at the church this week that Maria and I were at, we're just meeting folks who've newly become members, and there was a gal from Bishop Dagg's church who is now going to school in the Seattle area. And so she's here on a student visa, and so she's attending the church. And I was thinking about this in the context of this conversation, like, you know, reading all of Bishop Dagg's books and learning from what he has done and, you know, all of those types of things. And then also understanding that there's a broad based strategy and then there's a contextual strategy for your neighborhood, for your zip code, for your church, for your leadership style. And you got to hear God for yourself on that strategy instead of just trying to hit copy and paste, because that's not, you know, Dag texted that to me.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

He wrote, saw you broke a thousand in Texas. Congratulations. I wrote, yeah, I'm sure you're impressed. Don't you have more than that in your choir? And he wrote back, different wars have to be fought differently.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Wow. I like that.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah. Where he, like, actually was like, showing genuine, like, respect.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Like, like, you know, he wasn't patronizing you.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

No. And, and the humility be like, Yeah, I have 8,500 in, at my church here in Ghana. I don't know that I could have that in la. You know what I mean? Right. Because it's different. Right. That's why, like, I, I respect what you're doing a lot. Because it's not just that you have a large church. You have a large church in a place where there aren't even medium sized churches. Next.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

But why does he need a helicopter?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I know. If you were playing a church today, what would you focus on that most? Ms. Pastor Russell?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

I think something that's important to think about in the early stages of church development from, and this is a real nerdy answer, but it's in regards to church government, ecclesiastical structure, and bylaws, because nobody cares about that stuff until there's a problem. And then it really matters because then you recognize, like, oh, I guess the, the bylaws have this really onerous process that's been set up that completely voids the senior leader of having any influence or authority in a situation of, of this type of magnitude voted out of your own church. Right. And that stuff happens all the time. And, you know, like, and now, thank God we didn't have any type of crazy storms in the early days, and it gave us a couple years to really work and hone in some of our bylaws. But some guys, and I get it, you know, in the early days, you're just like, is this going to work? Can we survive another seven days? Is anybody going to show up at church next Sunday? But if you don't have the advice or the gumption or the legal oversight to be able to sit down and go like, hey, how does this thing actually operate on paper? You don't want that to bite you in the rear end five years down the line, 10 years down the line when there is a crisis of some sort that needs to be handled in a proper way. And so, you know, if I'm planting today, I'm probably checking that box number is worth $1,500 in a legal counsel. It's worth talking to some other churches and going, hey, could I, could I take a look at your bylaws and see how you set it up? Are you elder driven? Is it congregational vote? Are you set UP as a 501C3 or as a 990 or as an unregistered church? You know, what, what do you do from a transparency perspective? How is it governed? How many board meetings do you have a year? How do you do compensations? You know, studies like, it don't wait until. Because you know what they say in church growth is this. They say momentum covers a multitude of sins. So what happens sometimes is even a church will come into momentum. It'll be like, dude, so many things are happening. It's awesome. It's amazing. Yeah. But then when there's a shooting at your church and a dude is dead, when there's protests in the city, when the government's coming after you, when you've got lawsuit, you know, when the storms is rough, you need to have like a set ecclesiastical structure so that you can lead the thing without being turned into a puppet of the board or like you said, getting voted out of the church you plant like it, that's got to be set up in a way because, you know, it also matters

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

for like the COVID type stuff. If you have it in your constitution and bylaws, like we added it to ours after, obviously we started the church after Covid. But like, that the church will not close for. Because that matters in court.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yes.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

That you haven't just decided to do something. It's actually in your deeply held beliefs and legal structures there that this thing exists. That during times of crisis, it's not to shut down and provide help, you know, or like with. So you're defined by your constitution and bylaws. I would say if you were planning a church today, what would you focus on that? I would say to the thing Pastor Russell said that momentum covers a multitude of sins. I would focus on making your services as exciting and powerful and impactful as possible. And if you do that, that's going to solve about everything. If people leave your church after you dismiss the service, and that was awesome. I think we should make that our new church. That has to be the feeling people have when they leave. Not maybe when I'm. Maybe we'll just order Uber eats and go him. I don't have any life left in me after being there. You know, you're. You're prais. Listen to. Listen to Pastor Clarita sing. Listen to Lighty at. At Pastor Russell's church. Like, powerful worship by anointed people. An anointed message by an excited person that's excited about the message. And I don't mean the, like, Pastor Marquis and the North End excitement. I'm talking about, like, I'm dead act. Act, you know, like, like, excited to get the message out to the people and leave it on and up. I could play, but I've offended enough people for one year. I don't know why. There's this overarching thing that as you get to the end of the message, even if guys are preaching it, it's almost like they think you have to and so God will be your helper. So as we close today. And then they start with the slow piano, Quit leaving on a low. Correct. You know, don't make your church a boring place. Make it a place that people, like, can't wait till Sunday. Their friends are there. They love going there. They know they're going to have an encounter with God if you'll do that. Because most. If you flip through live streams, most services are not exciting. They're boring. Next.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah. And people forget, too, like, that people have options. You're not. You're not the only church in town, including staying home. And how many churches do they have to drive past to get to yours on a Sunday morning? Not only do people have options, but just in the philosophical age we're in, brand loyalty has never been lower. So, like, people are a lot less likely in 2026 to stay at a dead boring church just because it's the denomination that their grandparents got dedicated in, you know, 120 years ago. People want to be a part of something that's alive, that has victory. And, like, every Sunday, you've got an opportunity to, you know, show people what God, you know, is doing. By his spirit in and through the ministry and the anointing he's placed on your life. And if you miss that opportunity, it don't matter how well your systems are, how great your branding is, how cool or trendy your church name is. And, and inversely, it doesn't matter how terrible your church name is, you know, if it's power powerful, you know, in, in fact, Mark Driscoll was in an interview and they were talking with him about how Mars Hill grew to being one of the largest multi site churches in the nation and the largest multi site church ever in Washington state, you know, while he led it. But like, but you know, they were asking him how did you pick the name? And he goes, you know, looking back on it, that was the stupidest name I could have chosen. It's weird. People don't understand it. It's like nerdy Bible humor in a city that's post Christian. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't have named it that. But like despite the bad name, people were showing up and they felt something in his services that they weren't getting anywhere else.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

That's right. I like, I like what you said and I, I like that you said about like brand loyalty and all that because another, that's a mistake. I, I see pastors make a lot and I mean now that I'm a pastor, I'm talking, I always have. So why, why aren't people coming? Why would anyone come? You, you have to earn people coming and you have to continually earn them coming.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yes.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Not just. You've been coming here 20 years. I'm surprised you'd leave people. There's restaurants that I love going to. I have great memories there. There are like a couple more bad experiences for me, just it being my last time despite I have like 12 great years of memories there with my family because I'm not going to be a 65 year old man that goes to this one restaurant that sucked for the last 20 years, but Grandpa likes it. Right? Because it was good in the 90s. And, and that's what a lot of pastors have done. It's like, you know, you just expect loyalty because people have been coming a long time but you haven't served them a good meal in a long time. Next. What? Oh no, we didn't do that one. What has worked best for you in helping new believers get rooted in the church long term? I would like to hear your answer.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah, you know, we have different like track programs as it pertains to like new believers Class and baptism. And we do something called Pursuit DNA, which tells people about our church, but really it's kind of just like a doorway into helping explain and teach, you know, Pentecostal theology, what we believe, why we believe it, you know, things of that nature. We have the ministry school. But I always like something that Bill Johnson said when they asked him in regards to discipleship strategy in an interview he did a few years ago, he said, you know, in like 40 years of public ministry, the greatest discipler of people that I've ever seen is a revival culture. So, like, not that you can't have 101-201-301-1401. Not that you can't have Sunday school, not that you can't have like discipleship track programs and we do that stuff. But it is supplemental. It's not substitutionary to the revival culture. When people get into a Sunday morning environment and they feel and sense and experience the manifest presence of God, the anointing Spirit filled teaching the word of God like a hammer that breaks up the heart of stone. When people are dunked into that type of river on a weekly basis or multiple times a week, now they're going to men's ministry midweek, women's ministry midweek. You know, to me, like, one of the mistakes that I think oftentimes churches in the west make is they like, divorce discipleship from their Sunday morning experience. So, like, my friend Nathan Finocchio says that the less powerful your Sunday morning services are, the more additional discipleship classes you need midweek.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Absolutely.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And so like, people are being discipled when, when we're receiving the offering. People are being discipled in generosity and finances, obviously through the teaching of the Word, in worship, in communion, like, you name it. Everything we do in a service is an opportunity to disciple people. And it's like, only, only in our modern moment, people ask the question, like, what do you do for discipleship? Like, we need. What's the program that you subscribe to? Like, we really need small groups here. Well, maybe we do or maybe we don't. Like, I, I think I disagree with the framing of the question. You know, when Jesus is calling his disciples, none of them are responding. Like, okay, so like, what are we going to do? Like, what's the curriculum? He's like, hey, follow me, and you're going to see a bunch of stuff and your life's going to be changed. So when people are like, what? What does revival today? What does pursuit do for discipleship? I'm like, if you attend my church on A regular basis. There is a 0.0% chance that your life will be the same 90 days after you start attending.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And that's discipleship.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I haven't known you that long, so maybe, maybe you have a different answer. But like no one in the, in the modern sense, nobody discipled me. I just like went to church.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

And had Christian parents. Same with you. Was there like a track program at your church?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

No, it's it. You're raised in a spirit filled environment.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

You do too. But I, you know, I like what you said Nathan Fanocchio said. I agree with that. I, and I would say since a lot of these are coming from pastors have discipleship as a supplement for, for people that want to grow deeper in the word and all that. But you're not. I hear a lot of guys that it's like they think that's going to grow their church or starting home groups is going to start their church. The main engine is the main event.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yes.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

When they come on Sunday, then that other stuff can make it, make it better.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Well, you know, like I had never been to an NHL game before you took me to the Pittsburgh, whatever they're called, Penguins, Penguins game, you know, and so I'd never been to NHL game. I don't know, I've never watched hockey. I don't know how the game works. I don't know when you're supposed to cheer, when you're supposed to boo, you know, whatever. And so I'm getting there and I'm just observing. And by the time the first quarter is over, it's like, I know when to do the clap on this thing. You shout here when they do this thing over here. This is what that whistle means when the lights and the horn goes, that means they scored a go. Like after one quarter of sitting there around other people who love hockey, all of a sudden I began to pick up the actions, the environment, the behavior, the lingo.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Learning the rules of the game.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Learning the rules of the game. And then, you know, like a week or two ago I'm like buying the NHL game on PlayStation 5 and I'm playing it and I'm under, I'm going, oh, I've seen that player before. I'm understanding the rules and the language and the lingo. So like, yeah, that's a real stupid example, but that's how discipleship works. And so I just, to me, I always get irritated a little bit when people ask the question because it's like very like seeker sensitive, evangelical question that people think like it sounds spiritual, but it's, it's, it's what, what's the, what's the program like? Wait, like what's the. What is the. If, because if we can't really explain how discipleship works, it's probably not happening at your church. Well, that, that sounds great as a tweet. I don't think it's actually true. It works because you show up. Nobody discipled me how to be married before I was married. You know. Yeah, you go to premarital counseling where people are like, yeah, hang on for dear life. You know what disciples Me in marriage, being married, waking up next to the same person every day, being faithful to the covenant, learning, you know, how to operate, how to coordinate, how to raise kids together and how to balance budget. You learn it by virtue of being in the environment. And so, you know, it's like, like a lot of times people who ask those questions, they're either not going to your church currently and they're having these lists of questions that they need to get answered before they decide to grace you with their presence, or they've gone to your church twice, haven't been in the last six months, and then blame you for their lack of spiritual progress.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

That's right.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

If there was only a track. If you only freaking showed up, got off your lazy ass, committed tithed by, worshiped, showed, invite, been on a serve team. When you do those things, disciples, your mind, your spirit, your attitude, your conscience, your morality, your, your values, your philosophy by virtue of being in a spirit filled church. And so like show up, I guarantee you, you sit in any of Pastor Jonathan's services for, you know, longer than two or three weeks, all of a sudden your life begin to change.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I agree. Let's do one more good one before. And then you're going to love the shirt I have available for today. What's, what's, what's a good one to close with? What would you say is the secret sauce behind. I just want to say before we go off the air or this is an Airbnb and this family has in our house, we never give up. We say, I'm sorry, we like to have fun, we give hugs. I can just tell I would not like these people. And like if Iran does a counterattack on the US and launches missiles, I hope they hit this house after we're out of here. I just wanted, I don't like you. The fact that I can't imagine seeing that at a TJ Max, like that's fun.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

You should get that in this family.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

That in the car.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Oh, it's on sale in this family. We believe no one is illegal on sale. Stolen land. Love is love.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I would smoke three cigarettes before I would buy that.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Oh, yeah? Yeah. I might smoke three cigarettes on this broadcast.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Can you imagine if we did that and never mentioned it and just like toddling on sin and stuff while smoking and like never mention the fact that we were smoking. I'll tell you another thing. I'll tell you another. They got no commitment to anything the Bible says. What would you say is the secret sauce behind the growth of your churches beyond anointed preaching? What practical elements help create a church where people stay, grow and bring others? I'm going to say something and then I'll let pastor us possibly be more practical. You need to make sure you have a grace of God on your life for what you're doing. I don't know, I just. There's nothing wrong with starting small. Mark said a pastor cussing. Wow, Ass is in the Bible.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah. It's King James all through it.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

I, I feel, I feel a lot of people have a calling on their life, but I don't know whether it's impartation or something's missing because it shouldn't be struggling for long like you. And yeah, despise. Not that they have small beginnings, but it's the day of small beginnings, not the decade of small beginnings. Beginnings. Like when you started your church. You tell that story of being in the barn and running power to a neighbor's house and all that. That lasted how long? Two and a half years.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

We were in the barn, I think two months before we started renting a church on Sunday evenings.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Okay. So that you see what I'm saying. Pastor Cody started swelling. That was it, the pickle barn.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

But it's like full now. Pretty full packed.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

And there should be that. If that's not there, you have to have like the, the anointing and a grace, not just the anointing on your ministry. You need to be in the right city. If I started a church in Seattle, I could have 30 people. God, Pittsburgh's my place. I know guys that don't understand that principle that had a huge church somewhere and fell in love with like a nice place and just started a church there. You know, like dear, Dear Valley, Utah is beautiful. If I was just like, you know what? I like Deer Valley, Utah. I'm going to go start a church there. You think there's going to be a 5.3 million dollar building there waiting for me and all these things that just are supernatural. You have to know where you're supposed to be. And you have to be. You have to have power from God and a grace to do ministry exactly the right thing. I mean, look, look, I, I mean, there's, there's a few. You saw people that like, did what I, you know, traveled, started a church or had a church and started traveling because there's something to do. It started renting a jet. It all stopped in like two months tops, three months. Had to give the jet. You can't just do it. You have to do what the Lord says, where the Lord says to do it. And I can't. I wish there's way to just tell everyone, do this, this, this, and this. But you have to be led by the Spirit and, and you really have to be led by the Spirit. And you really, really have to be led by the Spirit. You have to know exactly by the Spirit and learn to be sensitive to your, to your spirit. Like, this feels right here. I have a good feeling about this. This. I, I have this idea. I'm going to do it. You know, this. I had the Lord speak to me. Not that we have a zillion people. I mean, Stephen Furtick's got 10 times the amount watching that, that I have, but it's not a small amount of people watching. And it brings in $12 million a year doing these broadcasts. You know how it started when I was off the road. The Lord said, you preach when you're on the road. People get turned on to the things of God and, and they're not hearing the teaching to follow up on at their church. Take time during the day when you're home and teach. And when I'm home turned into like the days when I'm on the road rather than doing a morning service. This is, this is a better use of time rather than just doing two of the same thing in the day. Well, God's blessed it. But then other people just see me brought, like, oh, that must be how he gets so much money. So we'll start broadcasting every day and take an offering every day and nothing comes in because it's not God ordained. Figure out what God has for you to do by the Holy Ghost. And very few people do that now, but they said practical. And what I said is impractical. So you, you go with the practical part.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Maybe. I heard this quote from, from, from you, you know, a few months ago, but you get what you preach for and people, you know, my worship pastor told me this once because I was asking him about how he determines the songs he picks that he's going to lead on a Sunday morning. And he said, well, you know, number one, I'm taking into account what you've communicated about the culture of the type of church that you feel led to build. But he goes, number two, you know, I'm recognizing that Monday through Saturday, people, a lot of people, live in a world where their boss hates them, their wife hates them, their kids hate them. There's not one positive interaction that they have, not one positive human touch that they'll have by the time they come in on Sunday morning. Some of them are one encouragement away from success or one discouragement away from ending their life. And so I've made the determination that I want to lead people in victory, lead people in faith. I want them to feeling better about God and feeling better about themselves and their tomorrow. By the time they leave this service. If people need more Lexapro, by the time that they leave your services instead of less, you're not doing it right. And so to me, like, I have one of these. One of my friends who goes to the church, he'd been there from day one, and he always reminds me, like, every Sunday, which I actually like.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Like.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Like, he reminds me. And I don't try to shy away from it, but he reminds me. He's like, russ, I told you this from the beginning. You're like a more prophetic version of Joel Osteen. And, you know, and I was like, I know a lot of people, like, hate Joel, but nobody goes to Joel's church and feels worse about themselves by the time they leave.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Right.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

People need hope. People need victory. People need faith.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yeah. Why so many people listen to Joel Osteen? All he ever does is talk about encouragement. Yeah. Say that again slowly, and then write it down, and maybe it'll start to make sense to you.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

It's like, not. It's not a. It's not a mystery. And so for me, like, you know, organizations have languages. Or maybe a better example would be, like, organizations have accents. And what is the accent of your organization as it pertains to the worship, as it pertains to the preaching, as it pertains to the announcements, as it pertains to communion. Because people, you know, the cultural train is running in your organization. The only question is, are you the conductor or the caboose? I want to lead the culture by being a voice of victory and a voice of encouragement. It doesn't mean that you can't ever preach on tough stuff or Help people understand nuance or talk about the church fathers or, you know, talk about theology or here. It's not that you can't go deep. It's that there's a way that you can teach on these things that gives, you know, people are trying to figure out how to pay their bills. People are trying to figure out what to do with their like disrespectful 14 year old. People are trying to, you know, figure out like life, like, like real life type of stuff. You know, like somebody asked me on my Q A yesterday, they're like, how do you, how do you warn your church against the heresy of Pelagianism? And I, I was like, you know, I don't know if anybody's ever come to pursuit because they are really needing some advice on how to avoid the first century heresy of Pelagianism. It's not that you can't talk or teach about those types of things, but like, I guess what I'm trying to say from a practical perspective is this. Everybody else is taken. So just be you find out. The anointing of God doesn't rest on who you pretend to be. It rests on who you actually are. Figure out who you are, what God has put a grace on your life to be and a grace on your life to do. And you know, the world needs, you know, your community needs the most authentic version of who God has created you to be. So I just try to like lean into that. I'm not a moderate, I'm a conservative. I'm not an idiot. I'm very educated. I'm not turn and burn, you know, everything is getting worse. I'm an encourager. I'm just like leaning into that type of stuff. And I think God is breathing on it. But it speaks to what Pastor Jonathan was saying in regards to what's something that you would have done earlier on in the church plant days. And you were like, focus on having quality Sundays. Most people in the west, you'll be lucky to get them at church every week, let alone multiple times a week. So if I'm getting somebody, you know, an average of 2.8 times a month, I want the 2.8 times they're in church to be the hour of power, to be victory, to be faith, because that might be the last time they come up for air until the next time that they're around. And so, you know, doubling down on making your church your ministry, your messages, your worship, like a voice of encouragement to where people are at. And I think there's something like attractional about that. There is something that we can learn from church models like the seeker sensitive model, which, which were not, but there is something that you ought to learn from them. And you know, they, they tuned in to like the frequency of where people were at. And you know, I, I think the critique is that often it didn't move them maybe down, down the line as much as they should have been from, you know, maybe a discipleship perspective or whatever, but it met people where they were at. And sometimes we're preaching to people where, where we're at, but, but not where they're at or out of the people

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

they hang around like that, that person you said that had that question, you know, what are you doing during the week that you even know what that is? And then, and then think that needs to be like, like you don't even, you're not. Again, it all comes from. You're not around anybody. You, you live in a little religious cal, you know, Calvinist debate, Armenianism world. People don't know any about that. Like he was saying, they need help paying their bills, their child is being rebellious or not doing well in school. They got diagnosed with a mass in their lung. They want help. That's how Jesus helped you. You cannot lose touch with people. If all. If you only hang around with ministers and listen to ministers and engage in theological debates online, your messages are going to impact nobody without you knowing it. And you're not going to be saying anything wrong. Everything you can, you can have a sermon every Sunday where everything you say is a hundred percent true and nobody gives a crap. You just like I could teach algebra every Sunday and everything I'm saying is mathematically correct. No one cares about algebra. No one cares about what you're talking about. My dad had a saying. I heard him say the church is often answering questions no one's asking. Correct. So you need to be around people and know what they're going through. Jesus was a man of the people and you know, he knew what they were going through. He knew about leprosy. He knew about sickness and tormenting spirits that, that were bothering people's families. Woman with the issue of blood. He met practical things. He wasn't just sitting on a rooftop given philosophy, religious philosophy, out about and describing heaven in great detail. He preached a word that set people free. And I'm telling you, I'll tell you one, since I didn't give any practical things. Open your altar up, whether it's for an invitation to receive Christ. Prayer for the sick minister. Don't just talk, minister to people. And even if you're not that great at it and you don't carry that powerful of an anointing, first of all, it'll grow the more you do it. Second of all, the fact that you even provide an outlet for people to get personal prayer will set you apart from the pack because churches don't do that. That's the first thing that got cut out in the 80 minute service model is any type of personal ministry. So if you'll do that and it'll grow your church.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

I feel like people barely even do altar calls anymore. You know, like we got to make altar calls. Great. Again. People actually want prayer. People want to come to the altar.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yes. And if you're going to give one, give one.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Since that guy got offended, I'll use a second then don't give a half ass altar call. Right. Which I hear people do. It's like an obligatory hey, before you, does anyone need Jesus? Anyone at all? I heard this guy, he does it all the time. I told him not to and he never listens. Like been eight years. I heard him on live stream, still doing it. It. I said, you know, I said, you give up on your altar call before as you're giving it, is there anyone at all? Anyone at all means you already don't even know if there's anyone there that needs Christ. If you're going to give one, give it.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Right.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Why be afraid that no one's going to come to the altar? I've had it happen a ton of. So you know what you do? You move on. No one. Great, let's pray for, you know, you don't have to make it like it's this thing like you failed. Give an invitation. The Bible doesn't say invite people to be saved. It says compel them. Correct.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Yeah. And you know, I think this is your quote maybe, but camouflage altar calls lead to camouflage Christians. It's like, you know, preach to. You get what you preach for. Preach towards something. What are you believing for? What are you, what are you calling people to, you know, if, if even, you know, not, not even all Paul's altar calls were successful, you know, one of them said, I'm almost persuaded. Well, at least they were almost persuaded, you know, I mean, did they get all the way there? No, they didn't. But Paul was preaching towards something. And you know, I think in this, in this context of, in this, in this context of like, you know, how people, how, how people lead their services and, and how people manage, you know, the culture of their churches. People are showing up to church not because they have it all figured out, but because they're in need of help, and people want to be helped. People want prayer. We had a guy, and you'll be at our Spokane campus in a few weeks for the revival nights. But we had a guy bring his daughter to the Spokane campus on Sunday night for prayer, and she had been having epileptic seizures. And the church that he was attending, he had called the pastor and asked if he could bring his daughter in for prayer. And they responded, no, no, you can't. You can't bring her in. It's like off hours. And, you know, I talked to the elders, and even on Sunday for prayer, you know, we kind of feel like there might be some sort of, like, hidden sin in your life or something. So, you know, just. Long story short, we're not interested in praying.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

What kind of church was?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

I don't even know. But he's just kind of telling me this story, and I would have thought, like, there's no way he's telling the truth. But I've heard these stories before. And so then he showed up on Sunday night and he said, hey, if there was time tonight. I said, if there's time tonight, that's the reason we get. You got faith to see your daughter healed. Let's pray the prayer of faith. I brought him up on stage. I taught on the prayer of faith. We laid hands on her, we prayed that prayer. And, you know, afterwards it was like, hey, I'm here. This is my spot. You're my pastor. I'm going to rule out what.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Because you cared, right?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

And people want. People want. Don't shy away from the stuff that makes your church distinct. Even in Washington, a place that people would say, oh, it's not very religious, whatever. We have over 6,000 churches in Washington state.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Right.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

There's a lot of places that people can go to that are not the church that you lead. So give them a reason to show up and give them a reason to stay. Double down on your distinctives. There is something distinct about your ministry style. You know, it might be the way that you preach or some of the things that you talk about or whatever. You know, I think something that's distinct about pursuit is that I really try to cause there to be an intersection between some of the issues of today. And then, you know, what the Bible says historically, I'm trying to get there

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

to be that Christians in the Pacific Northwest more than anywhere else, are having to combat at work and. And pastor Russell's loading their guns. This is why we believe what we believe. This is why what the other people are, are saying, why it sounds compassionate, but it's actually from hell to destroy. And then it's like it's a leader. You have what Pastor Russell is in the Pacific Northwest. And, and more than that, you have to be that as a pastor. You have to be somebody that people want to throw their whole weight behind. That's our guy. He stands up for us. And, and when you do that, people, people will like, back you to the hilt because you cared about them and their family and you, you taught them the word. Be a leader. That's why, you know, like the shut your church down for snow and stuff. Like, be someone. They're risking their life all week. Firefighters, ambulance, police, lumberjack, oil field on down the line. Be somebody that doesn't half acid as a pastor. Then we started multiple churches and I'm not, I'm not at the building, you know, be somebody. People can back that. They're proud to have you as their pastor. You're out in front. You have something to say. You have a take on what's happened in the world more than, let's just pray for all the crazy things that are going on in the Middle east, like tell people from the Bible why they shouldn't be afraid and how it's going to shake out prophetically and all that. You know, be a shepherd, Comfort, comfort God's flock. Shepherd God's flock, Feed God's flock, Right?

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Instead of just this like, broad based capitulation to these ethereal, esoteric, you know, spiritual platitudes where you're talking about stuff and people are going, hey, that's all great. And it might be true, it might even be true what you're saying. How does that impact my life?

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Yes.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

How does that impact what I'm seeing on the news? How does this challenge the way that I think? How does this help me, you know, navigate some of the circumstances I find myself in at work? You know, Cause I'm a teacher, you know, in the teachers union in Washington state. Like, people need real help on real practical stuff that. And the Bible offers those answers. And so, you know, I think there's people who have either like pigeonholed me or, you know, have critiqued me about being like, well, you're, you know, you're like the political guy. It's not that I'm turning Sunday morning into some sort of like Fox News set every Sunday and always talking about, you know, this or that, but when there's major stuff happening on the news, like, you know, Charlie Kirk getting assassinated, like, you know, the Middle east going into war, you know, things of that nature, you know, the Bible actually says speaks to these issues. You know, even like the, the apostolic literature in the New Testament, you know, they say comfort each other with these words. It's like an application to what's going on in places like Thessalonica and others. Like the words of scripture provide you comfort for what you're facing today. This is how you should think about the world you're in and, you know.

[Jonathan Shuttlesworth]

Anyways, Father, I thank you for everybody that tuned in. I pray that you would be a great help to them today as you always have been. We thank you for all you've done for us, all you're doing for us right now today, and all that you're doing going into our future and making every crooked past straight and removing all barriers as people have asked. Help their churches to grow supernaturally. Help them to hear your voice. Help them to be sensitive in their spirit to your leading and to never make a misstep the rest of their life. Thank you for keeping us, keeping us from sin, keeping us from defeat, keeping us from sickness and disease. Thank you for your promises that are yes and amen to those that believe. Thank you for supplying all our needs according to your riches and glory through Christ Jesus. In Jesus name, amen. If you've never received Jesus Christ before, I want you to pray this prayer with me right now. Say this out loud. Heavenly Father, I admit that I've sinned. I repent. I believe in my heart you raised Jesus from the dead. I confess with my mouth, Jesus is Lord and my Savior. Right now I receive forgiveness by the blood of Jesus. I am saved. In Jesus name, amen.

[Pastor Russell Johnson]

Thank you for sharing the Jonathan Shuttlesworth podcast.

[Podcast Host]

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