THE WORLD IS IN REVIVAL, REFORMATION, & REFRESHING, Joseph Z with Roberts Liardon

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "THE WORLD IS IN REVIVAL, REFORMATION, & REFRESHING"

Joseph Z Podcast | Joseph Z with Roberts Liardon | March 28, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Joseph Z sits down with renowned church historian, author, and prophetic voice Roberts Liardon for an in-depth conversation on revival, reformation, and the move of God across the world. Drawing from history, personal ministry experience, and prophetic insight, the two discuss the past, present, and future of spiritual awakenings, the difference between revival and reformation, and the maturing of the church for today’s challenges.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Global Ministry Footprint

• Roberts Liardon shares about his extensive travel and ministry across 130 nations
  • God told him 18 months prior, “I'm going to open up new platforms and doors. Will you walk through them?” and he said yes, resulting in a surge of activity and stamina for ministry. (02:13)
  • "We treat Europe like it’s our backyard... I’ll be spending the whole month of April in Asia." (02:37 – R. Liardon)

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The Three R’s: Refreshing, Revival, Reformation

• Defining the Movements
  • Roberts introduces his framework: "Refreshing, Revival, and Reformation."
    • Refreshing: Personal renewal for believers feeling spiritually weary but not backslidden.
      • “You need a refreshing. You're not backslidden, you’re not in sin...He’s not mad at you. He gets it.” (04:45 – R. Liardon)
    • Revival: Reawakening for the people of God, often marked by salvations or restoration of scriptural truths.
      • "Revival is mainly for the people of God... the greatest revival we talk about is salvation revival, getting people saved or the backslider’s home." (05:11 – R. Liardon)
    • Reformation: Societal level transformation, going beyond church walls to change whole cultures and institutions.
      • “Reformation is different. When God has a living people, He says, I want to go into society and bring back my original intent of why I allowed education, built the family...” (11:13 – R. Liardon)

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America at a Crossroads: Revival vs. Reformation

• Roberts contrasts America’s history of cyclical revivals to the current need for lasting reformation.

  • Revivals typically last 5–7 years; reformations run 10–15 years and address society’s core structures. (12:50, 16:34)
  • “Reformation is more intense... All the mountains are going to turn into volcanoes and they’re going to explode before we have the great fix or the great conclusion.” (22:43 – R. Liardon)

• On Political Reformation

  • Discusses Donald Trump as an unexpected reformational figure:
    • “I would have never picked the orange man to be the answer... After I got to thinking and watching... he is doing things we prayed about... I choose, I support this. The hand of God is working here.” (21:25–22:16 – R. Liardon)
  • Warns that governmental reformation isn’t tied to any one leader—more shifts are on the horizon. (23:13)

• On Maintaining Momentum

  • “In Reformation, we have to realize we can lose the momentum faster than you think… We have to have a forward drive for a longer period.” (24:01–24:18 – R. Liardon)

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Recognizing God’s Surprising Ways

• God often answers prayers differently than expected.
  • “When we pray, we picture how God's going to answer... but it may not be how God answers.” (18:07–18:48 – R. Liardon)
  • Cites Lonnie Frisbee and the Jesus People revival as an example of God using unlikely vessels. (19:19–20:33)
  • “He picks who he wants, how he wants, what he does.” (20:14 – R. Liardon)

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The Prophetic, Judging Ourselves & Maturity

• Prophetic Movements in Church History

  • Reviews waves of the prophetic, suggesting a third, more mature phase is coming that will bring health “in the life of the believer, the church, the nation.” (14:22–14:41 – R. Liardon)

• Personal Accountability

  • Stresses regular self-examination to avoid public pitfalls:
    • “God always tries to do everything privately before he goes public… If you judge yourself, you won’t be judged.” (15:04–15:51 – R. Liardon)
    • Practical advice: ask yourself, “How's my motive? How's my overall mental health? My physical health? Judge yourself in every area—doctrine and relationships.” (16:04)

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Reformation’s Impact on Society

• Mountains of Society
  • God wants believers to reclaim influence in family, education, media, government, medicine, etc. “After COVID, I realized health and medicine is huge, huge. That shut down the world.” (11:13 – R. Liardon)
  • “If you stay quiet, you agree with the dark side. There cannot be silence. There must be action.” (25:11 – R. Liardon)
• Hollywood & Media
  • Observes recent exposure of corruption (e.g., Diddy, Epstein) as part of God's cleaning of the “mountain” of entertainment. (27:07–28:07)
  • Encourages Christians to make high-quality, wholesome media; Hollywood now recognizes “there is money in Christian film and in just good film.” (31:04)

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Mantles, Anointing, and Generational Transfer

• Distinguishes between anointing, impartation, and mantles.
  • “A mantle is made up of anointings, impartations, calling, gifting, strategy... forms a spiritual cloth in the spirit.” (34:52 – R. Liardon)
  • “I don't see the person carrying the mantle actually being the one that tells it where it goes. I see more God directing the mantle carrier.” (33:45)
  • “You can't get something from someone you don't respect or don't honor.” (35:54 – R. Liardon)
  • The coming era will see both dormant mantles from previous generations and new mantles specifically for this season. (44:45 – R. Liardon)
  • The next move will also feature “power couples” and families ministering together, and missionaries sent not just to nations but to industries and culture (government, media, medicine, etc.). (45:10–46:19)

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Fivefold Ministry & Maturing the Church

• Restoration of Gifts
  • “From 1950 back, only three gifts... operational: pastor, teacher, evangelist. The 90s brought in the prophetic… now, the apostolic has begun.” (46:49–47:11 – R. Liardon)
  • With all five functioning, “we’re going to get the fivefold meal that will make us what we’re going to be.” (47:11–47:27)

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Wisdom for Navigating Change

• Handling Generational and Institutional Resistance
  • Institutions often persecute or reject what they cannot control, especially when new revelation is institutionalized and begins to decline. (41:02 – Joseph Z)
  • “God would like the last move to be a part of the new move because it brings a little more stability. But they get mad—their preference comes in. It’s that new wineskin, old wineskin thing.” (43:26–43:37 – R. Liardon)
  • “Plus, it’s the blending…old mantles that have been dormant are going to find an awakening and a carrier. And there's new mantles coming because we're facing a new day.… Very exciting.” (44:45–45:13 – R. Liardon)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Revival and Reformation:

  • “There’s something stronger than revival… It’s called Reformation.” (04:06 – R. Liardon)
  • “Revival is for the church. Reformation is for the society.” (Paraphrased summary of Liardon's teaching)
  • “If you stay quiet, you agree with the dark side… There cannot be silence. There must be action.” (25:11 – R. Liardon)

• On God’s Surprising Choices:

  • “He picks who he wants, how he wants, what he does.” (20:14 – R. Liardon)
  • “I would have never picked the orange man to be the answer to the governmental problem.” (21:25 – R. Liardon)

• On Accountability:

  • “God always tries to do everything privately before he goes public.” (15:13 – R. Liardon)
  • “If you judge yourself, you won’t be judged.” (15:50 – R. Liardon)

• On Mantles:

  • “A mantle is made up of anointings, impartations, calling, gifting, strategy… and we call it a mantle. It’s spiritual, nothing to do with natural clothes.” (34:52 – R. Liardon)
  • “You can't get something from someone you don't respect or don't honor.” (35:54 – R. Liardon)

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Important Timestamps

• Experience in 130 countries; God’s call to ministry expansion – 02:13–03:30
• Three Rs: Refreshing, Revival, Reformation defined – 04:03–04:27
• Difference between Evangelical and Spirit-filled approach – 05:57–06:43
• Healing revival of the 1950s; Oral Roberts' legacy – 08:00–10:07
• Societal reformation, family, and education under attack – 11:13–12:26
• Revival & Reformation duration contrasted – 12:50–13:19, 16:34, 23:13
• God’s surprising answers; Lonnie Frisbee/Jesus People movement – 18:07–20:33
• Trump as reformational figure – 21:25–22:16
• Losing momentum in reformation – 24:01–24:18
• Hollywood, media, and movies as mission fields – 27:07–31:04
• On mantles and generational transfer – 33:13–36:13, 44:45–45:13
• Fivefold ministry restoration – 46:49–47:27

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Tone and Closing Insights

The tone throughout is earnest, direct, and prophetic, with a blend of personal storytelling, practical advice, and historical perspective. Joseph Z regularly affirms Roberts Liardon’s authority as a church historian and encourages listeners to seek God’s voice for themselves while learning from past and current moves of God. Both speakers encourage a blend of humility, boldness, and action to seize this moment in history for spiritual and cultural reformation.

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Final Thoughts

• The episode concludes with prophetic exhortation for believers to become “an equipped warrior class,” take spiritual authority, and stand as reformers in every sphere (52:32–53:48).
• "Even on a bad day, you’re anointed to be the very best there is. God has called you!" (53:23 – Joseph Z)
• Both speakers stress the urgency for believers to participate in society, persist in prayer, and expect God to work in unexpected ways through unexpected people.

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Resources Mentioned

• Roberts Liardon’s latest books ("Mantles," "God’s Generals Vol. 7") are available at robertsliardon.org and Amazon.
• For more from Joseph Z: josephz.com

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Transcript

[A]

Well, I want to welcome you today. I have with me a very special guest, my friend Robert Salerdin. We're going to be talking about a variety of things from revival and reformation to God's generals and just a lot of scenarios that we know the spirit of the Lord is going to reveal to you by revelation. You know, it's amazing when I get to talk with Roberts. He's one of my favorite people, and he is so well versed on just history and revelatory things. And I think you're going to really be impacted by this. So I encourage you, please repost this and share this right now. And also, just before I bring Roberts on, I want to thank the friends and partners of this broadcast and ministry for being a part of this. Whether you've been with us since the very beginning, all the way up till just recently, we're so thankful to have you. And if you would like to join our partner family, you can do it by going to JosephZ.com today. And one of the things we'll do is we will call you back regularly.

[B]

Our.

[A]

Our team will call you. We're not going to try to solicit you or ask you for things. We simply want to call you and pray with you so we can build a family and a community. And I'm just really excited about that, and we're looking forward to welcoming you to the family. So thank you for reposting this and sharing this. Please do subscribe to the Joseph Z YouTube channel, and I'm so grateful to have you with us today, but I don't want to take any more time because I have with me Roberts, Laird and Roberts.

[B]

Welcome to be back with you, brother. I think I just saw you a few days ago in Nashville. We did, yes. We had the NRB convention.

[A]

That was so awesome.

[B]

Now, you've been there before, haven't you?

[A]

I've been there before. We were there, boy, for a few years now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And we started broadcasting live there now.

[B]

Is that fun? It looked like fun. I was on the show with you. You did? All day long for three days.

[A]

We did. We were broadcasting live, and you're walking by, and I thought, I got to get Roberts over. I was like, roberts, yeah.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

It was great.

[B]

The last time I was there, when I saw you this year is my first time. The last time I was there was in the 80s when President Reagan gave a speech there. So that's a big gap between the two. And it's. It's changed a lot since. And it's It's a good show. I like going there. Yeah, it's good to see everybody and what's happening. And even outside my stream, there's good things happening that you get to meet people there.

[A]

It's true. It was like the super bowl for Christian broadcasters. It was a good time. Well, I enjoyed seeing you there. And you are a busy individual. I mean, you are all over the world. You travel everywhere, Everywhere, everywhere.

[B]

The Lord spoke to you about 18 months ago. I'm going to open up new platforms and doors. Will you walk through them? And I said yes. And so all of a sudden a new go came on me where I don't get tired because if I look at my schedule in detail, I get tired. If I glance at it and just stay in the spirit, I'm fine and it works good. But we treating Europe like it's our backyard yard and not a faraway trip. And I'm going to be spending the whole month of April in Asia.

[A]

No kidding.

[B]

So because I don't have a church and have some of those things, I can do things. And going places and staying longer gives you more time to do not just the big events, but the other events that are a little smaller or a little harder to get to. And so I do them all.

[A]

You know, I appreciate that about you because you have a global footprint. I mean, you've rocked arenas, you've preached in mega churches, you've had a huge church, maybe more than one, but you've done all that. But you will go wherever the Lord leads you to go. And I just really admire that. I really do.

[B]

That's what Jesus does.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

When you read the Galilee story, he went to the whale, he went to the marketplace, to the center. He went to all of it and never complain. So I'm trying to model that in my traveling life. There's a few days I like, can I stay here longer and just sleep? Because like, when I come to Colorado, I come like, wow, I should live here because the mountains are so beautiful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So in traveling you get to see so many places. I've been to 130 countries so far.

[A]

Have you really?

[B]

Yeah. And Andrew Wommack just told me because there's 100, only 193. I thought there was 200 and something. So I've gone way over half. So my go ahead and see the rest of them from there.

[A]

That's so great. I love Andrew. That must have been great. Can't wait to watch your time there. You know, it's so. It's so amazing what God has you doing. You and I got into a conversation at NRB and some of the other conversations we've had, but about revival and reformation. And this is something that I've heard you talk about it on flashpoint events and other scenarios. And I really like the way that you break it down. Can you give us a snapshot? Just kind of. Let's walk into it.

[B]

Well, first thing, we have to realize there's something stronger than revival.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So when you say that, that also makes everybody go, oh, what's that? Because in America, we are a land or a nation that only had revivals.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so when we think moves of God, we think different degrees of revival activity. And so in reading revival history, there's another word that comes up called reformation.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so to teach it real fast, I call it the three Rs.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

There's refreshing. Revival and reformation. Refreshing to me is more personal or smaller. Like I. I jokingly said I was born. Born again because I was born in a Christian family. So I did get saved. I prayed the prayer, but I don't remember a Day without God, Bible, Jesus, church. I mean, that's how I. And I like it. I didn't reject it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. But when you serve the Lord. Been around that. You get that. So I'm tired of going to church. I don't want to read my Bible anymore. You're not in sin. You're just tired.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or you've been working the church and the children or the singing or whatever. Like, I like this, but I don't want to. You need a refreshing. You're not that. You're. You're not backslidden. You're not in sin. You're just. You need a refreshing. That's what that is. And I've needed those off and on throughout my life. So if you need one, just ask God for it and he'll come and accommodate that. He's not mad at you. He gets it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He understands it. He's waiting for you to kind of recognize so he can be invited in to do all that needs to be done to make it new again. And then there's revival. Revival is many for the people of God. They. They grow cold or they get distracted, or sometimes we let things slip, as Hebrews says, and we don't mean to because we were busy and there's so many new things happening and we let go of some things.

[A]

True.

[B]

Yes. Remind us. So there's different kinds of revival I'll mention is it's revived the church. The greatest revival we talk about is salvation revival, getting people saved or the backsider's home. That's. That's mainly the evangelical revival. It's also in the spirit filled world. I probably should divide spirit filled and evangelical. Okay. Because we're called evangelical. We're not in true sense. We are spirit filled people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And evangelicals are good people. They're Christian people. We believe actually about the same thing with a little variance about salvation, the word of God, the Christian character, all the. This baptism. But when we come to the Holy Spirit is when we. We make a little bit of a detour. Not because we're trying to be elite.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because we want more of the Holy Spirit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We believe everything happened in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts still happens.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

In for us, to us and through us. And none of it has been done away with.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Or some of evangelical brothers won't go that far. That. Well, that's over. We don't go there. And that's where the little division comes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so it's not that we're. I'll say it again, we're not that we're trying to be elite, but we want more. If it's there and it's in the Word, then we want it.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

And I want every church member, every partner of yours and mine, both to hear God's voice with himself, have their own dreams and visions, be able to operate correctly. Yes. With the Spirit, not be dependent on me or you to have it. So and then revivals come in other categories of emphasis, scriptural emphasis. And that comes about because God needs to strengthen a truth because he's going to lay something on top of it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And he needs that to be stronger so it don't come on. Or there's an error that has got into the body that he needs to clean out and he'll bring a truth and had the right preached long enough to wash out the wrong. That is so good. The Lord does not just attack people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Sometimes you have to talk about certain things. But mainly he removes the error by preaching loudly the truth. And it's the washing of the water of the Word that cleanses the body and the people. And you don't have to get into a fight.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

So that's Holy Ghost.

[A]

Yeah, the Bible happens to teach that.

[B]

So some of our younger brothers or those who haven't grown up in certain scriptures like to argue more.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And there's a time you have to. There's a time you must say certain things. This we cannot do because of this. But 98% of it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Is the Holy Spirit. Just emphasize teaching the Word with certain authorities, and it cleanses the body.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And that's why revivals of certain emphasis come. Like we've had in 1950, a healing revival that was mainly done by what we call the tent preachers. And it was because healing was around. But he wanted it big. Jesus wanted it big again.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

And he wanted to happen not just with special gifts of William Branham or Roberts or somebody. He wanted it to happen in the local church with the pastors and elders and you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so he brought that wave to prove to people, I still heal today. See, I do it. And then it got into the churches, and now everybody prays for the sick, and we don't even talk much about it. Nor the amount of miracles that happen in a day.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Is phenomenal. I asked Oral Roberts one time, why don't we have the miracles we had, like, in year 10? He goes, oh, we have more and many more. I said, well, because there's no camera on it. He goes, everybody in the church prays for the sick at different times and gets miracles, but we don't have a camera or somebody going. But it's. Cancers are healed, eyes are adjusted. He said, what's happening everywhere? He goes, I'm more happy now seeing everybody do it, because it was just a few of us. We were killing ourselves trying to heal all the other people. So, you know, he had a huge tense.

[A]

Well, trailblazers do that. I mean, and Oral was just obviously a trailblazer, and it takes a lot to cut that trail.

[B]

Yeah. His life should be said by every evangelist, especially the big. What I call media evangelist, because the size crowds that come.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you would do those tent meetings, they would go sometimes for 30 days. You know, two weeks to 30 days.

[A]

30 days.

[B]

Sometimes two weeks to 30.

[A]

How did I not know that?

[B]

Every night. Every night.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And so, you know, we get exhausted after three days.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or we can't go for three days. We won't go one night, because we have other things to do. Yeah. It's people. We've got to change some of this stuff. But. But it would take him two weeks, he said, when he came home to recuperate physically from the amount of spiritual and physical and emotional energy going out. And so the family, like the Oral Roberts family, Evelyn and the kids, they need special honor because they were. They allowed and gave us their father wow. Their husband.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even when they came home, he couldn't be dad and husband because he was so exhausted, he had to build back up.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so that's a lot that people don't realize when you do that. But I'm getting lost in my little story.

[A]

Oh, I love it. We're talking about revival, Reformation and Roberts. I love this. Now, just so you know, everybody that's watching, right. I need to tell you, Roberts is an expert on church history, spirit filled history and revival. And so I just, every time we talk, I glean so much from you. Oh, I do, Roberts. And there's a holy Ghost flow with you. You're not just reciting things and teaching things. There is an impartation. If people have ears to hear it with. When you're talking, there's impartation. But revival and reformation help us.

[B]

All right. So like I said, emphasize the revival of truths. Well, reformation is different. Yeah, it is. When God has a living people like we have now. There's, there's a lot of good, strong churches. And he takes as. I want to go into society and bring back my original intent of why I allowed education, built the family, what we call the pillars or the mountains of society. And I think Lance only calls them seven. There might be 15, I don't know how many there are. Uncle Lance, we'll call him seven just to be safe with him. But there may be more. I added one called the medical health mountain.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

But I thought medicine is such a big deal in our lives today that it is, it's a, it's a huge thing. After co, I realized health and medicine is huge, huge. That shut down the world issue. So he goes into society with the people to say, I want to remind you how I built this and I want to bring back that to the people's consciousness. And this is the best way to live or conduct our lives. And so when we look at society, we look at the family. Now, God's original intent was he wants a masculine man to marry a feminine woman and bring cute babies that look like the end of the earth. Now that is the original intent.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Of the family. Yeah. So that is what we need to remind. Because right now it's almost like if you are a traditionalist family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're the weird people.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

If you. All these other things, you're normal. That's because the wrong spirit and the wrong minds and have dominated so long that when you finally show up, go, no. They think, well, who do you think you are? We've been here for 50 years. You just showed up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's where the problem. And you have education. I never thought we'd have school systems that are starting to transition children from male to female by their own and not telling the parent.

[A]

Crazy to me.

[B]

It's the worst child abuse I've ever seen. It is in my life.

[A]

Yes sir.

[B]

And it's. It's in this country. It's not over there. It's here.

[A]

It's here.

[B]

So there are issues like that. You come through and God wants a reformation now in America. What we don't know, we, you know, we talk about a move of God. We think revival now revival. Historically speaking, it's not scriptural or it's history Talking five to seven year revival kind of runs give or take. There's okay so. And, and it has a. A start, a crescendo and a decline. And an end.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Now some people rival should never end. Well yes and no. God has specific things he wants done in a revival movement. When it's done, it's done, it's done. That doesn't mean he's not going to move again and keep doing something. It just means that particular thing has fulfilled his role. And it does not disappear. It goes into function. And most people don't realize when revival's over, it's not gone. It goes into function and it becomes a normal part of the church of the body. Like the prophetic restoration.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

I think that it is healthily and I'm going to say it is complete but not gone. Yeah. Because prophetic. We're saying we're over it. Listen to me, don't get mad. Is the prophetic what God want? I remember, I'll take it back since we got time. When I was a young preacher traveling.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I began to preach what a prophet is. I had four cassettes.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Four cassettes. Back in the early. Like 91. One of the first things. And that was like brand new heavy revelation for everybody. And they were mad at me because I was so young preaching it.

[A]

Oh man.

[B]

But I thought that was like the first kind of wave of the prophetic. And then you had people like Bill Hammond and.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And those kind of guys begin to show up at that time period. Wow. Good people. Wow. And then you got the next wave that kind of came in next week. You have like the Bill Johnson and some of the revival culture people. They call themselves a revival alliance and that. That group and you got that generation. And now I think now again everybody judge this Talking. I think there's coming a little bit of a close to the last. The second prophetic way.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

And a third one, I think is going to come.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I think that the third one is going to bring maturity and a healthier operation of the prophetic in the life of the believer, the life of the church, and the life of the nation. I think that we've gone through some issues that had to be dealt with or fixed or however you want to say it.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

And I always think of this when things go kind of rough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not the first time. It won't be the last time. I've gone through a few of those in my life in ministry. So it's like, here we go again. It's all you guys is your first one. Or you're like, oh, my. That's why you all get hyper. Like, calm down. The church is 2000 years old. This is not the worst controversy or scandal we've had. Worst ones in history.

[A]

Come on, Rob.

[B]

And we've survived. And we'll just have to learn how to. To learn from it. But I always mention this. God always tries to do everything privately before he goes public.

[A]

That's a good word.

[B]

And public is when it's the last thing that he can do to get your attention. Wow. So I think we should always keep a pace about judging ourselves. Make an appointment to pull yourself aside.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And to judge your heart, your motives, your conduct.

[A]

Yes, Lord.

[B]

And go before the Lord. And even, you know, your family or your. Even your accountability team. I think that's what I do.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I don't want to get beat up publicly.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

I don't think anybody wants that. But I look at these because I've read church history. I've lived through some of this stuff. And I'm like, why does this happen? And I think if you judge yourself.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You won't be judged.

[A]

That's scripture.

[B]

And so I think it might be healthy.

[A]

It just might be healthy if we

[B]

all just once a month or once, two months, however you guys want to do it, you know how you feel yourself. And pull yourself aside. Like, how's my motive?

[A]

That's good.

[B]

How's my morals? How's my motive? How's my overall mental health?

[A]

That's.

[B]

How's my. My physical health? And judge yourself in every area in doctrine and relationships. Am I still growing? Or I plateaued in my spiritual. Which is a big problem, because your gifts can still be working and you're not growing personally.

[A]

Boy, that's true.

[B]

And that's like a little snare a trap. So I think if we do that, some of the stuff won't happen. But Reformation is when that happens. So reformation is a 10 to 15 year run.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's. They both have warfare. Revival and have warfare too, but they're different.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Reformation is more intense. Look at America today. Welcome. Everything is screaming. Yes. Everything is yelling.

[A]

Everything.

[B]

And we don't know what to say to anybody. So just say what you want to say and have fun. And so quit being scared about it because part of it is you prayed for this. Enjoy the show.

[A]

Here we are.

[B]

So, because all of us have been praying, like your parents, my parents, my grandparents.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Probably three or four generations from the 50s, 60s when the cultural slide began to become very big and very loud and begin to dominate culture, our parents and grandparents begin to scream, help Jesus, save America. Help us. What's wrong with America? And all of our generation, including ours. Help.

[A]

Help.

[B]

And it's like in Exodus when the children of Israel in Egypt and they were under all that bondage and he heard a groaning and a suffering that came up to him. And God said, is this true? Yes. And he comes down to see if it was. And it was. And he sent stuttering Moses to help him and get him out of there. So unique who he picks, but he's picked Moses.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I picture that for us.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Our nation has been praying, help us, Jesus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And our help, everything gets more intense. Ours is almost a scream. Like if you don't come now. Yeah. We're going to lose everything kind of scream. And there's some truth in that scream. And he came down to see if it was true. And. But when we pray, we picture how God's going to answer. I need to tap this.

[A]

Oh, come on, Robert.

[B]

When we pray, oh Lord, save Carl Springs or Right. Save my brother in law, whatever case might be right. We always get a picture. Now we prophetic people have done a little bit of injustice here. We've almost everybody think every kind of imagination or dream you got talk about it prophetic and it's the Lord talking to you. No, it's not. I wish it was, but it's not.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

And we have to be mature enough to separate what it really is. The pictures of God versus our own imaginations that is working with us when we pray. Because when I pray God bless Joseph Z. I get a picture of what, what I think that should be like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it may not be how God answers That interesting.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's why a lot of people that prayed in revivals or prayed in the pastor or prayed in the church, when it shows up, they don't like it.

[A]

They don't like it, and they don't.

[B]

They don't receive the blessing of doing it. And so we got to be careful we don't come against what we prayed in. And I think that's part of what's happening in America, because we pictured a revival. We pictured how God was going to bless us. And he's not doing that right now. He's doing big pictures. And you have to sort. That's my preference. It's not bad. Right. But God may not do it. So, like when Lonnie Frisbee.

[A]

Yeah, please.

[B]

The Great Jesus People Revival.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

The hippie preacher. Love the guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wish I could have met him, but I didn't. But he would not be the guy I would have picked.

[A]

No.

[B]

Even how he found the Lord. I tell the story. The movie. Great. The Jesus Revolution is a great movie, but there's some things they didn't portray. But it's okay. It's not bad. It's a great movie. But Lonnie Frisbee, according to one of his friends, told me that he got saved on an LSD trip. And he wasn't really clothed. He was supposed to be on an LSD trip clothed. And he was dancing. And the Lord comes, appears to him.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Everything about that says no, right? No, no, no. You got. Can't be on LSD trip. You can't be half naked or naked and dancing. It wasn't Christian aerobics. It was dancing. And Jesus appears to you, man. So me being a pity. No. That can. No. Oh, Pentecostal. No. He picks who he choose how he chooses what he does. Yeah. And he picked Lonnie.

[A]

He did.

[B]

And you and Chuck Smith, the guy that built Calvary Chapel. One of the great things about him was he was traditional, like me. The suits and the whole thing race. That's how I think.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But he had the ability to discern, like. Okay, that's not my preference.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's not what I really like or what I'm comfortable with. But God is in this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And he let go of his traditions and his preferences and said yes. And the great revival occurred.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

So I need people today in America to do the same thing. Like, it's happening, but not how you thought. It's not a revival.

[A]

God loves using the weak things to shame the strong. And the foolish things to shame the wise. And it's like he picks the most unlikely candidate to do something monumental. I don't know why. Maybe just to offend.

[B]

Maybe it's his entertainment for God. Maybe God's entertainment. That's how humans do with this. I don't know. But I get to. I have some questions I want to ask. And that's why I'm like, why did you do this to us?

[A]

That'll be the best interview you ever do is when you get to heaven. Robert.

[B]

But what's happening in America? Like, let's take the most hottest mountain is a political mountain. Yeah. And no matter what you say, the governmental of a nation affects everyone, even those who don't want to vote or I'm not a part, sorry, it still affects you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if you don't vote, then you should not complain about whatever happens. That's my opinion. But I would have never picked the orange man to be the answer to the governmental problem. I wanted God to bring a Christian guy that would stand up for stuff or a good business person. I would never have picked Donald Trump. And probably most of you, right, were the same way. But after I got to thinking and watching that, as much as it's not my preference, he is doing things we prayed about and we've heard words about and, and he doesn't talk the way I think he should talk. But I'm not a New York billionaire, I'm an Oklahoma boy. So that's a different language there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I got to the place where as much as I don't like something because it's not my preference, I can put that aside and say, all right, I choose, I support this. The hand of God is working here. Yes. And he has done more to help the church and society than I had all the presidents in my life.

[A]

It's unreal.

[B]

It's a reformational president.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

It's the mountain of government. God is answering. But none of us pictured no Donald Trump.

[A]

No, we did not.

[B]

And so God picked Donald. He did have to sort preference over that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And knowing by his fruit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And well, that's. It's one of the issues. Yeah.

[A]

So when you look at America, just for example, Roberts, do you, do you believe we're in reformation?

[B]

We're in right now. That's why, I think that's why there is. Well, that's why the nation's in, I don't want to say controversy, but it's in turmoil because all the mountains are going to turn into Volcanoes and they're going to explode before we have the great fix or the great conclusion. And reformation runs 10 to 15 years, revivals five to seven. So we've just started. So let me say this for you, all the Donald Trump fans and anti Trump. Yeah. When Trump is done, the reformation of government is not over.

[A]

What a statement.

[B]

So we need to realize. You can't wait for Donald Trump to be out. Great. But who's coming next?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We may be praying for Donald Trump to come back. I don't know. We might be. It could be another person. I'm like, oh, my next person. But that's. People are kind of at a place where when Donald Trump's done it all calm down.

[A]

I like what you say though, that, that revival is like five plus years and reformation is like 15.

[B]

Yeah, we've just started.

[A]

We've just.

[B]

It.

[A]

Wow, Roberts, that's amazing. You know, when you're walking through this type of narrative, revival is unique. Reformation is unique. Do you have any prophetic insight or unction about where you see us going as a nation? Is there any of that in your spirit?

[B]

Well, I think in Reformation we have to realize we can lose the momentum faster than you think.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Revival is a little bit different. The way the life of revival is a reformation. We have to stay current in our heart, in our mind and in our corresponding actions. And so much of the time with the church and with just normal people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We get real excited and we get. And then we pull back.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We have to have a forward drive in us for a longer period of time in the natural and this way to keep this stuff going. All the spheres.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I think that's something I'm concerned about. Like, well, you know, people are already. I'm tired or I know, complain. Like folks started.

[A]

It just started.

[B]

So we have to talk like this.

[A]

We do.

[B]

Because most Americans and most preachers in America don't understand Reformation. At least in Europe they have a little bit of a heritage. But it's 4 or 500 years old.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So if you read Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

A Scottish one. You can see in principle what's happening. But ours is more modern. Yeah, but principle, it's almost identical. You have all the mountains reacting. Luther was a belief. Yeah. He had to deal with the Catholic Church and its errors. And on a half a verse, he changed the whole world.

[A]

He really did.

[B]

Just. And bam. And it started and it was huge.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then it rolled over into society. And so you can watch. And we're seeing it because in a reformation, if you stay quiet, you agree with the dark side. You have to voice, you have to stand, you have to be able to articulate who and what you are. There cannot be silence. There must be action. Yes. And that's why everybody's talking. So you know, we all prayed for this.

[A]

We did.

[B]

So we all buy the popcorn, enjoy the show. Don't get mad at it. You'll have you like some scenes and some things you will not like as much. But you prayed this in. So all the great grannies that prayed and all the prophets that prayed and all the pastors, oh, God help us. He's helping us, but not in the way that we thought.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But in a reformation. And you can look at them, the political mountain is the biggest right now. And we just need to stay active. There are elections are coming here.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And we need to stay active.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Now, to me, voting is a part of being a patriot in America.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

If you don't vote, you're not honoring those who died for us to have this right.

[A]

Say it, Robert.

[B]

And the founding fathers and the mothers that helped put it together who were dreaming a new dream. And we didn't do this by conquest. We did this by an idea. Freedom.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And we become the greatest nation and the world envies us. That's why some love us and hate us. It's true and it's wonderful. So please vote. If you don't vote my way, that I want you all to vote. Vote. Because just.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Just get out there and do your civic duty there. And Christians, well, I don't like who's voting. Well, find the one closest to your dispositional belief.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That way.

[A]

Yeah. Bad or worse still go with the thing that's above worse because not voting

[B]

is a vote for the dark.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

For the decline. It is pain for the suffering for. How do we get here? Talk is when you don't vote, man. So when you look at the other spheres of that. Let's look at Hollywood for a moment. Yeah, Hollywood. I live 20, about an hour and a half from Allen, Orange county, from Hollywood. So I'm familiar with it in a more personal way, but for a long time, the. The sex and all the drugs, the stuff we saw that came out with the Diddy homes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Shawn Diddy Holmes stuff. Well, that's happening in other camps out there too. He just happened to be the big popular guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I passed it there, Joseph, we knew about not just Diddy but we knew about this kind of stuff.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Because some of you would escape and find back into our churches and we would go to the chief of police and they say, we know, but we don't have the power.

[A]

No kidding.

[B]

To deal with it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And they said, well, just take the people and take care of them and we'll do what we can. But the power that be would not allow the police. But it changed. Wow. It changed it for the top guy is in jail today.

[A]

Yeah. Come on.

[B]

And he was the top mogul.

[A]

Yeah, he was.

[B]

And he had money, he had power, manipulate all the stuff that's there. And it's probably worse than what we were told in the media.

[A]

Oh, I'm sure.

[B]

And something happened.

[A]

Yes, something happened.

[B]

They didn't get away with it. So righteousness and prevail is moving in these bondage to where it's beginning to knock the darkness off of its footing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To where it's beginning to manifest. And when these things start roaring is because they're losing.

[A]

Yeah. The Epstein files, for example, same thing. It just keeps going. You know, I was just recently, just a while back, the. The State of the Union was happening and. And Trump said some things to the Democrats that I was just like, my goodness. And he. He just said, if you're for American safety and you're against it, you know, stand up. And the people didn't stand. And he just like, went at them. And then he said, you are crazy. And then he. Another thing he said is, oh, my goodness, you're. You're trying to remember the words, but he just really went at them. And that's. That's Reformation, too. That's not what everybody expected. But he is being used to confront these things.

[B]

The Reformation is the tearing down of demonic strongholds who think they have the right to be there because we've been absent. Like when you look at the children of Israel.

[A]

What a statement.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They think they have the right to be there because we've been absent.

[B]

When Joshua comes to power, Moses is where we willingly have been. The Moses ministry gets you out of the world and gets you saved, gets you going to heaven and maintains you until you die or the rapture occurs.

[A]

Right.

[B]

How sick. I'm glad you're out, but there's more to this.

[A]

That was the word Trump used, sick. You people are sick.

[C]

That's true.

[B]

Did say. Yeah, but. But when you go to Joshua came a different leadership. Yeah. Different style. Not like Moses. He doesn't have a vote. Three days relieving and he meets all the ites, the Amorites, the Canaanites in the land of promise. And you have to deal with them. And they've been gone for 40 years plus, man. So they got married the it. They had their babies, their grandchildren. They. They built their towns on our land.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And they think it's theirs. They've been there 40 plus years and you show up like, well, this is mine. And you have to leave. And this is how we're going to do it. Like, who do you think you are? This is our land. I know we're late, but it's still our land. That's kind of what we got to say. But we can't back up. And that's the way we are in the mountains of our culture.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And culture is not understood very clearly among the full gospel people.

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

Your evangelical world understands it more. I think they preach about a little bit more than we do. But we have that problem. We show up and we've been late to the family mountain. We've been late to the media mountain. I mean, look at Hollywood. For my whole life. I just turned 60, man. I don't remember very good. Many family good, wholesome movies. What I remember. Drug, sex and rock and roll.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They taught us how to have sex with everybody but our wives and husbands.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Deviate sex. They taught us how to people not get caught.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

How to do all these bad things. I'll be in gangs and fight the police. And always they brainwash the world through TV and media. Right. And movies with all the bad stuff. Yep. And so God's beginning to clean some of that out.

[A]

So good.

[B]

And we're getting. We're making better movies that we don't have to apologize as we're taking our friends on. This is a Christian movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The story line of the story is good, but it's not the greatest film. But the more the story is great. Now we don't have to. It's both good story and good filming. So praise God. I've been long enough to see that. We got both.

[A]

Imagine that.

[B]

And they're making money. The world's found out that there is money in Christian film and in just good film.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Good wholesome film.

[A]

It's got to be good.

[B]

And so, you know, I'm tired of sex and. Yeah. Amen. I want to see people win. Tell me a life story. Yeah. So many good stories throughout history and how they won and overcame and. And ended well. Tell those. Inspire.

[A]

You know, I had a I had a prophetic encounter, Roberts, when I was actually in. I was actually in Mario Murillo's tent crusade. I'm standing there in Mario Murillo's tent crusade. And when this took place, everybody's shouting and roaring and all this. And, you know, we believe Jesus could return any moment imminent. We know he can do that. We know the rapture could happen. Those kind of things could happen at any time. But I'm in this crusade and people are shouting and shouting and shouting. And the Spirit of the Lord apprehended me and pulled me aside. And as everybody's shouting, I heard the whisper of the Holy Spirit say, this is not the end. This is not the end. We are not there yet. And I got a snapshot. And the Lord said. And I saw a newspaper article that said, and God saved America. I believe that's what he's trying to get us to cooperate with him for. Do you feel that way?

[B]

Yes, I think he. And I think there's more cooperation than we see, because we don't understand the loudness and the chaos of reformation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because we think it all becomes peaceful. We're going to be loud scream for a while, folks. So just don't. But that means something's happening, causing. That's right, the voice or the concern or the wake up, like, oh, we can lose our. Our demonic posture. Yes, that's our goal, to remove the demonic postures out of these things and where God and good can, can, can win.

[A]

Yes, yes. You know, here's what I'd really like to ask you, too. So when we go through revivals and reformations and all these scenarios, you just recently wrote a book on mantles, and I got to tell you that that is profound. Some of the things you got into in there. One of the things I just wanted to ask you just for clarification, too, is many people talk today about you're getting a mantle, you're getting a mantle. And I'm thinking about this in context of revival, reformation and. And then a generational shift and change. And many times when these changes come on the heels of revival or reformation, people start saying, well, I got his mantle, I got their mantle. Or you get a mantle, you get a mantle. And can you help us a little bit in that space, Roberts?

[B]

Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. I understand that. Because I see that happens to me in my means, like, I've got Wigglesworth, or I've got, you know, Daddy Sue. Like, I hope so. But no, you know, it's like one day I'm going to bump into the first one that doesn't. Yes. But what it is, there's a. I define it as. There's anointings, impartations and mantles.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I break three down and the two plentiful one is anointings and impartation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And those are easier to gain or to have as a part of what happens to you. And I say get all of them. You can get.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Collect them. If you want to collect them, collect. I just want to say that. But however you can get blessed by those. Get them. But a man was a little bit different. It's a bigger thing in scripture. I don't see the person carrying the mantle actually being the one that tells it where it goes. I see more God directing the mantle carriers. Who. You see Elijah and Elisha there. She's the clearest story of mantles in the. In the Bible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that Elisha was the chosen one to receive Elijah's mantle. And God told Elijah he will do this man. And he would. And then the thing about a mantle carrier, when you see Elijah actually got it, he walked across the river and the sons of the prophet see it.

[A]

They saw it.

[B]

They saw and they said the spirit rest on him. I don't find the mantle carrier ever talking much about them having it. They just walk in it and we who behold it go, that's Elijah spirit. Or that's an oral Robert spirit. Or that's a, you know, one of those. That's a Billy Graham. And whatever you will see it. I think if you have shows up and we who watch and we who see. Yeah. Or we were just around go. That's what this is.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's the way it should be. That's the way I think most titles work to people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Especially with the mantle. So a mantle is. Is made up. Like we've got our jackets here. It's got different cloths and different threads. So a mantle is. You've got anointings, you've got invartations, you've got calling, you got gifting, you've got the strategy, you've got all the different things that make that become a cloth in the spirit. And we call it a mantle and it sits on. It's a spiritual thing. Has nothing to do with natural clothes. There's symbolism that people use with the cloth. And I get it and.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But it's made of all those things together. So some people can have an anointing. Like in my life, I believe I picked up an anointing. Being around Kenneth Hagin.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

I don't have the Kenneth Hagin man. I would like it, but I don't think it's anywhere in my sphere of ever getting it. But I'm glad I. I sit around. I heard him preach more than any other preacher in my life.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I lived a few miles from Raymond, his headquarters. We were. All the time.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I grew up with his kids and the grandkids, you know, So I was. I was around man. And I respected him. You can't get something you don't respect, you don't honor. What a word. Some people don't like this guy. That's fine. You don't get nothing from them.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that's very.

[A]

You can't get something from someone you don't respect or don't honor.

[B]

And I know. I knew Brother Hagin. I knew him from the stage. I knew him from behind the scene. And he was an authentic man, good man, a moral man. His doctrines were very good. Even his prophetic gift. I wish the prophetic people, they would study this a little bit more.

[A]

You know, we have been. Because you told me this before about Brother Hagin. And so we listen to him frequently now. And I just got to tell you, thank you for that as a prophetic movement. Need that more, but please continue.

[B]

Yeah. With him. He was a world prophet. He was the dominant prophet of the time that he is alive. There were other prophets, you know, like Bill Hammond and Rick Jordan, the other ones you can talk about. But Brother Hagin was the top world. Wow. If you didn't like him when he prophesied, you heard what he said. And there was no phones in those days.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So they all said the cassettes they got on the phone. So it spread because he was that kind. And the way he would bring forth the prophecy, he just didn't. You can pick up much because if you're a seer or a perceiver, you. You can get. But he wouldn't speak unless there was an inner notice or an unction or prompting of the Lord. Speak now.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so there were some things about him that I wish we could bring into the prophetic movement as a part of our culture today. I think would help a few aspects. Yes. And so being around him, I was able to catch stuff that was flying through the spiritual realm by being in the room, by watching his manner, how he operated when this kind of move came in the spirit. How do you respond to that? Because many times one of the biggest problems with anointing is people don't know how to respond when it shows up.

[A]

That is true.

[B]

Pastors especially. I love you, pastors. But you sense it. It comes in the room. But what do you do with it then? I don't know how many. I felt that what I do well, something. You gotta do something. And even if you make a mistake, do something. Step out and do something. But watching Brother Hagin all those years, I learned how to respond to different types of anointings or different authority levels.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And. And so it was. It was exciting.

[A]

When you were in Brother Hagin's meetings, for example, could you feel the presence of God? Thick. Was that in the room?

[B]

At times you could feel the. The thickness of the presence, especially when he started moving in his prophet's office. Wow. He was a prophet teacher, so the teaching gift seemed to be dominant. But he taught under a prophetic unction, a prophetic revelation. So it wasn't just point one, point two. There was a. That's why he told stories.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Things of the Spirit are told or transmitted many times by stories and then followed up with principle teaching.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Because people get. Oh, they can see it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then you can add the principles to it a little bit later. So when you get in that mode. I was in meetings where there was a great prophet just named Judy Wilkers who would show up.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And would come in the meetings. And Brother Hagin did not submit to other prophetic gifts very much. And I'm not saying that is an arrogant thing. It just. Well, there wasn't that many, to be honest, at his place, even though he was respectful and never. I never thought he was an arrogant man.

[A]

Okay. Even praise God. Yeah.

[B]

Talking with him. You can't even get him to talk sometimes. So he's just a very quiet kind of guy, like hear the prophet say something and. But she would come in the room. I remember one time I was at Rayma and Sister Walker came in, sit behind me. She was running. Later, came in late, and the service had already been going. Brother Hagin was just teaching and he stopped. He goes, I know you're here, Sister Walker. I just can't see. I've been waiting for you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Come on up here and do what you're supposed to do. And so he'd just been kind of spiritually rambling, waiting for her to show up. And then he felt her in the room. So I was in those kind of meetings when those kind of functions would be going on. Now today we have to realize that there are believers meetings and Outreaching, two different kinds of meetings that the church does. Wow. When you're in outreach meetings, you don't always do stuff between your family meetings. Wow. They're two different things. And sometimes some churches are only for believers, which I think is a mistake. Others are only outreach evangelists, and that's a mistake. The church must do both.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

And there are things that happens in evangelism that won't happen in believers and vice versa. There are things in believers meetings that may not be for the whole body, but for specific people in the body at that time.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if the church can be respectful, even though I'm not the one being looked upon or prophesied to or touched by the Spirit, I'm here and I can support it by faith and I can watch and learn. Wow. And if a church can develop that, then God will do deeper things in that body and have special type of meetings.

[A]

So, Roberts, you carry such an anointing. I'm actually getting a Holy Ghost thing for you here. The Spirit of God works through you so mightily. And I believe that we need, you know, I like to use the word, a retrofit. We need to take what has been given to us from previous generations and embrace where God's taking us next. And a lot of times, people, the. I like to say it this way. Whatever the institution, I define an institution. There's many good institutions, but I define religious institution as something that started as a revelation, and the revelation turned into an institutionalization of that revelation. And then they go into a place where they begin to decline. And when they decline, whatever that institution can't control that's coming next, it persecutes or tries to kill. Do you see that?

[B]

That happens all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Welcome to church history. Well, yeah, it said, I remember when the Assemblies of God and I was raised Simmons of God. I'm sure there's AG people out here.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

That when the Word of Faith movement started in the beginning days, they killed these Word of Faith God. They did. They were merciless. I mean, they were met and some things in a move. When a revival starts, you got to give the guys or the ladies who are the leaders of it, give them time on how to say things. Right, right. Because all the accusations usually comes in the first three years where they're learning how to say it.

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

And say it in the full council. You got to give them time. And if you. If you listen to anybody in their first few years of the move of God, they will say things extreme or not quite imbalanced because they're announcing it, and they got to figure out how to put it together. And so the AG boys were killing the faith guys who don't know how to teach faith because they were. They were all bold personalities, and they were all out there. And then they're going out, and today they go, oh, we say this much better because you've grown.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The persecution comes, many from the first few years, and it's unfair. I'm sure if we looked at your ministry and mine, and thank God some things are not on YouTube, but there are things I would never say that way again. I wouldn't approach that move of the spirit with that certain disposition. But you grow. Yeah, but your critics can find that, especially today.

[A]

Oh, they can.

[B]

And never ask you, what about this now? How do we say that? Or listen to you now? And it's unfair. It is fair.

[A]

I'll tell you. You know, I resemble that remark very much. And so I've been through a lot of that stuff, and it's just been tremendous. But when you're younger, you get, like, a revelation, and then you have your own value system, your shaping filter that you're preaching through. And you can either be too hard on things, you can be over the top, or extremely prophetic. And I appreciate you saying that.

[B]

And. And if you've been around. So I like that. Give them a second chance. Yeah, Go listen to them again now. Or you have an ability to talk to somebody, say, hey, I saw you, heard you do this. How does that sou.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if it's changed, they'll tell you. They'll probably know what you're talking because they're like, oh, God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, we all go through the. Oh, God. Oh, I'm so sorry. I should have said it that way. I should have said with that tone. And I'm very bad with the tones. I have the tones all through my life, so. But we have to give room for that. But they all fight. So if we could learn not to be so hostile.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And God would like the last move to be a part of the new move because it brings a little more stability.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But they get mad. They do get mad because their preference comes in.

[A]

Again, that's what it is.

[B]

It's that.

[A]

That new wineskin, old wineskin thing. And. But. But again, learning from the last generation, taking the step forward, there's. There's just something about that spirit of Elijah that does that. It equips us. I think of Luke 1:17, where it says the spirit Elijah will come, basically merge generations. But then as a result, which is a reformation statement, says that the disobedient will come under the wisdom of the just. They'll have to turn to it. And I think that's part of reformation. If we get this together, I think we can actually experience.

[B]

I think we have the. If it's going to happen, this is the moment it can happen.

[A]

Come on, Robert.

[B]

There's more people talking like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As young ministers where. When I was young, we didn't talk like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We just yelled and screamed. Had a good time. God help you and you persecute me, I bind you and go. That's the way we dealt with. But now we're thinking a little bit more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're a little more aware because the revival culture we've been in has brought an awareness of some of this. So it's a little bit of a different posture in people's hearts and minds. So I have more expectation of something better and more powerful. Plus it's the blending. Like you said, old mantles that have been dormant are going to find an awakening.

[A]

Boy, I like that.

[B]

And a carrier. And they may be multiple carrier. Usually a mantle goes to one or two kind of breaks in. One or two. And the anointings may be multiple mourns. Yeah. But it may be a little bit different thing. I don't want to say, like this is the way it's going to be. And I said softly, touch it. But I think there's also new mantles coming because we're facing a new day, a new time, a new. The ending aspects of the scriptures.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So I think there are mantles made for this moment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think it's very exciting. I think some other characteristics of this woman is power couples, not just individual, like a husband and wife team. Families are going to go into. Into play again. Whole families are going to operate together in ministry and on stage and behind. I think that's going to be part of the characteristic. Wow. I think the local churches are going to be enhanced and we're going to see more muscle in them. The word muscle, not just existence and survival, a waiting pad to depart, but an operating house that equip and activate. Go out and do this stuff. And not just ministry, but also into society, into the Reformation. Because Reformation has new missionaries.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The traditional missionary or William Care. We get them. Go to India, we go to Africa, we go to China. What about folks who are called to government? Wow. To education.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To money, to all the different, to Hollywood, to media, to medicine. What about all those? Yes, there are people that are as noted as you and I who are called to go into those worlds to do the work and the bidding of God. And the warfare in those mountains.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And we all revolve around a church where they come and get fed and they come and get refreshed. They come and report what's happening. So the local church is not. There's a place for conferences, even though that happens, is a place where all of this happens. Yes. The Reformation is going to have that which I would say we've been an apostolic church. We do. Which brings another controversial word into play. So. But it is here, folks.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Product. Reformation is the apostolic. I don't know much time we have, but I'll follow your lead. But.

[A]

Okay, about three more minutes.

[B]

I'll tap this. From 1950 back, only three gifts of the fivefold were operational.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

The pastor, the teacher and the evangelist. The 90s brought in the prophetic and there's usually a gap between office restoration. There's no gap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As soon as the prophetic got strong enough and became truly a restored office, the apostolic now has begun.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

We live in the day when we'll have two offices restored. And would there have been a day when it ends, all five will be functioning, Understood. And feeding us a five fold meal that will make us what we're going to be. Robert, it's going to be absolutely amazing.

[A]

That is powerful. Now, just so everybody knows, you've written another book. Generals, Volume seven. You have mantles. That's come out, which is just profound. Can you tell everybody how to get a hold of your books and where to find you?

[B]

You can get all my books through my [e-mail] or they're on Amazon too. For you around the world, it's easier sometimes. Get on Amazon and you can just call my office or you can go do it that way.

[A]

Well, let me just say to everybody, robertslarden.org this is one of my favorite ministers in the body of Christ. What he has brought to so many of us for years is just a treasure trove of information and church history. And Roberts, I'm just so grateful for you and we got to continue this conversation.

[B]

Are you, Are you. I'm all ready.

[A]

Okay. No, we got to come back. Well, I'm so grateful for you. You're a friend, you're a man of God and thank you for being such a great leader in the body of Christ.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Thank you, Roberts. Well, ladies and gentlemen, you don't want to miss more of what Roberts has. Go to his website, check it out. The spirit of the Lord is speaking. If you have ears to hear, you can hear it. God is with you. Don't miss. We're going to have Roberts back again. Don't miss it. It's going to be powerful. Jesus is Lord, God is with you. Don't go anywhere. Watch this. Spiritual darkness is not simply meant to be pushed back and held at bay. Rather it is meant to be punished. That's why I just wrote this brand new book called Punishing the Darkness Spiritual Warfare that works. You know the thing people don't get many times is that God calls you to win every time he calls you to results based believing. And when it comes to the powers of darkness that are trying to take over this world, mutilate our children, run this world into the clutches of the devil, God has called you, his believers, to stand up and punish these forces by your faith. When you read this book, it's going to give you effectiveness and the horsepower to push back, even punish the darkness. And it talks about breaking cycles of anxiety, offense, fear, spiritual fatigue, things where it's warfare in the mind, witchcraft, all the things that is happening in the culture. And you've got to recognize that God wants you to rise up and begin to destroy those things of darkness that are trying to destroy your family and you. Even on a bad day, you are anointed to be the very best there is. I hope you get this book Punishing the Darkness Spiritual Warfare that works. @josephz.com today. I wanted to say a very special thank you to our partners. Partners, thank you. Whether you've been a partner with us since the very beginning, the early days, or whether you've recently become a part of our partner family, I want to just simply thank you. Because of you, we're able to do so many things that we could never have accomplished without you working with us together. We're so grateful for you and from the very bottom of our hearts we wanted to say thank you to you and we pray for you every day and we stand with you and we're believing God is going to do magnificent things through this partner family in the coming days. As a matter of fact, I have a promise from the Holy Spirit about it now. If you want to become part of our partner family or you're even on the fence about it thinking about it, I would encourage you to do so today by going to josephz.com or you can text the keyword give to 719-259-0029. Your partnership helps us advance the gospel and it helps us fulfill the commission God's given us to raise up a million to reach a billion that's lives a million clear eyed, clear minded reformers to go win a billion. A million for a billion. And we know we can do it with your help. I believe with your help we can impact the world and we're looking forward to stepping into this at a greater capacity than ever before. I just want to say thank you and invite you to the family by going to JosephZ.com today. The prayers of the righteous that have come forward in 2020. The prayers of the righteous in America. The the way we've cried out to God. I heard the spirit of the Lord say I'm gonna finish what I started. And when we walk these things through, there's one more round he's bringing and it's going to be revival. It's gonna be awakening, it's gonna be all these things. I actually believe we're stepping into the precipice of a great awakening.

[C]

The minute I said yes to Jesus was the minute I attained all of life and godliness and righteousness and wholeness. It all belongs to me. I attain it the moment I say yes, Jesus to you. Just as you are saved, so are you healed. He paid for it all. When you place a draw in a demand on your covenant and you place a draw in a demand on the word of God, that's when faith begins to arise on the inside and nothing will stop you. Nothing.

[A]

For I am raising up an equipped warrior class group of intercessors. I see mantles for intercession coming on people that they will stand up and begin to go to war in their home, in their living room and begin to stand against principalities and powers. I see them doing this. The Lord's going to begin to assign you to pray, to intercede, to break yokes off leaders, to break them off those around you to be gossip, gossip busters.

[C]

I declare breakthrough. I declare breakthrough. I declare breakthrough in your hearts. I declare breakthrough in your minds. I declare breakthrough in your household. I declare breakthrough in your bodies. I declare breakthrough in your relationships. Right now, by the blood of Jesus,

[B]

because it's your covenant.

[C]

It's your covenant right. And anything else is illegal.

[B]

Thank you Lord.

[C]

Right now, in the mighty name of

[A]

Jesus, right now, even on a bad day, you're anointed to be the very best there is. God has called you a man or woman with a revelation from God Almighty is not at the mercy of a culture going mad. We're going red in the blood of Jesus. Jesus is Lord,

[B]

Sam.