Joy 101: Jefferson Fisher

Summary

Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb

Episode: Joy 101: Jefferson Fisher
Host: Hoda Kotb
Guest: Jefferson Fisher (Trial Attorney, Communication Coach)
Date: August 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this uplifting, wisdom-filled conversation, Hoda Kotb welcomes Jefferson Fisher—a trial attorney turned viral communication coach—to explore the elusive, essential nature of joy and the transformative power of healthy communication. They discuss boundaries, difficult conversations, family dynamics, how to ask for what you deserve, and what it takes to shift from surviving to thriving. With warmth and humor, they share personal experiences and practical advice for living a more joyful, authentic, and connected life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of One-on-One Connection

Hoda's Reflection

• Hoda shares how meaningful one-on-one time with her niece revealed the power of simply being present:

  “She asked me, 'What was your favorite part?' ...I said, my favorite part was watching you and watching her kind of come out of her shell, watching her blossom... had it not been for that time together alone, we would have never had that conversation.” (01:03)

• Emphasizes learning by listening, even to children:

  “The less I talk, the more she talks. ...She has tons of wisdom.” (01:35)

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Jefferson’s Unexpected Emergence as a Communication Coach

How 'Arguing' Led to Empathy

• Jefferson built a social media presence to share life advice, from boundaries to saying no, informed by his legal training and personal experience:

  “I made a video on how to argue like an attorney. But it was different than most people think… Instead of trying to win, it's trying to understand.” (07:16)

• His content went viral unexpectedly:

  “I never in a million years thought this is where it would be. There was never let me go online, and this is what I'm working towards… Then it just went nuts.” (08:13)

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On Charisma, Warmth, and Creating Emotional Safety

• Hoda identifies a unique ease in connecting with some people and asks Jefferson why some instantly put us at ease (11:15):

• Jefferson distinguishes “warmth” from charisma:

  “Warmth is a feeling that needs no words, that they just… your shoulders relax.” (11:38)

  • Example: The steady, calming presence of a loving grandparent (12:07).
  • Steadiness during chaos is magnetic and makes others feel “safe, welcome, and enough.” (12:39)

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Calm Parenting as Anchor

• Both share parenting struggles—how calm presence in defiance can open doors for connection.

  “Whenever the world’s really reactive, [the steady people] stay just steady.” (12:39)

• Jefferson on parenting:

  “We're just big kids… when they're screaming… you go, okay. I see that they’re hungry, they're tired… It's the same for us.” (14:42)

  • Holding compassion for children teaches compassion for ourselves.

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Communication Clarity: Breaking Through the Illusion

• Why relationships break down:

  “Relationships fall apart because of bad communication… You think they understand you. You thought you communicated it.” (19:34)

• On the “illusion of communication”:

  “The number one problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” (20:16)

  • The gap between what’s said and what’s heard.
  • Instead of “That's not what I said,” try:

    “Tell me what you heard. What am I missing?” (21:29)

• Hoda’s relief at this reframing:

  “My shoulders literally dropped down…” (22:18)

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On Difficult Conversations & Intergenerational Silence

• Hoda talks about “letting things die on the vine” and asks about breaking family silences (22:28).

• Jefferson’s insight:

  “There are people listening right now who don’t… communicate with their mom or dad… because of all the things that were left unsaid… Estrangement doesn’t happen in one fell swoop, …it happens because of all these little bitty paper cut conversations…” (23:53)

• The next day rule for knowing it’s time to talk:

  “If I’m still carrying it the next day, it needs to be voiced… when you invoke the heart… it gets right to the point.” (24:25)

• Steps for conflict thawing:

  1. Acknowledge the distance: “I know things aren’t how we both want them to be.”
  2. Address anticipated defense: “I’m not asking you to apologize.”
  3. State readiness to listen:

     “It’s not, ‘I’m ready to talk.’ I’m ready to listen.” (27:06)

• In-person is ideal, but anything with vocal tone is better than text (28:14).

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Self-Advocacy & Boundary Setting—Work and Beyond

Asking for a Raise or Promotion

• Hoda (mid-50s) finally found the courage to negotiate pay properly, after years of undervaluing herself (36:41).

• Jefferson’s approach:

  • Talk about the role instead of yourself:

    “When you come into the conversation with requirements, people respect you more than if you have none… I know what I'm worth. I know what I've done. I’d hope that this would be the organization. If not, I have some others that I’m talking to, too.” (37:33–40:39)

Being Heard in Groups

• How to get your point across in meetings:

  1. Grab attention – use a steady, confident tone, and names.
  2. Add curiosity – “I see something different…”
  3. Lead with authority – Use words like “direction,” or analogies (“I’m in the red zone, need help pushing it in”).

     “If you come in and say, ‘Hey, I have about 65% of an idea here, I need your help with the other 35...’ people want to go for the 35%.” (44:13)

• Eliminate minimizing language (the “ly” words/adverbs):

  “Stepping into your language rather than weighing it down … serve your words neat.” (46:20–47:42)

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Boundaries: “Serve Your Words Neat”

• The formula for loving boundaries:
  1. Start with “I” (“I don’t respond to that tone.”)
  2. Clearly state the consequence (“If this continues, it's the end of the conversation.”)
  3. Follow through verbally and with action (“I’m going to hang up now.”)

  “When you say the end of the conversation, it is incumbent on them to change the attitude.” (53:39)

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Life after Going Viral—Focusing on What Matters Most

• Jefferson shares the chaos and lessons of sudden online fame:

  “As soon as you get a taste of fame, you gotta spit it out. It's not great for… you have to say no and realize what's best for the family is what's best for the business… I've learned it the hard way.” (55:00)

• Realignment after burnout:

  “[Ask] Who’s getting the best of me? Is it everybody on social media, or my family and kids? Why would I ever give my kids the second-best version of myself?” (58:23–59:28)

• We overestimate the happiness from “big” achievements and underestimate our ability to handle adversity (60:18).

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Joy: What Matters Most

• On sources of joy:

  “What’s bringing me joy is knowing that my kids… to say no to things and say yes to them and my wife… We did this trip in Australia… I just got to be dad and present… My phone is full… of pictures and videos… it’s the biggest joy.” (63:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The number one problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” — Jefferson Fisher (20:16)
• “Why would I ever give my kids the second-best version of myself?” — Jefferson Fisher (59:27)
• “Serve your words neat.” — Jefferson Fisher (47:42)
• “I know things aren’t how we both want them to be… I’m not at all interested in trying to rehash the past. I’m ready to listen whenever you are.” — Jefferson Fisher (27:06–27:26)
• “If you want to heal your relationships, it starts with the next conversation.” — Jefferson Fisher (31:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:00 – Hoda on the value of one-on-one connection with her niece
• 06:48 – Jefferson’s background, going viral, and career evolution
• 11:26 – Warmth vs. charisma and emotional safety
• 14:42 – Calm, compassionate parenting and lessons for self-kindness
• 20:16 – The illusion of communication & practical correction
• 23:02 – Avoiding uncomfortable conversations & generational silence
• 27:06 – Scripts and steps for thawing frozen relationships
• 36:41 – Hoda’s journey to self-advocacy at work
• 40:41 – Speaking up and “being heard” as a woman in meetings
• 46:20 – Eliminating minimizing language: “Just,” “actually,” “kind of”
• 51:42 – The mechanics of setting boundaries
• 55:00 – Fame, burnout, and Jefferson’s new philosophy (“family first”)
• 59:27 – On realignment and giving the best to those who matter most
• 63:07 – Sources of joy in Jefferson’s daily life

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Final Reflection: Ordinary Joy & Mindful Presence

• Hoda closes with a meditation from Anna Katzis (Greece), highlighting noticing everyday beauty as a route to joy (65:29):

  “The more I slowed down, the more I noticed, and I realized how much beauty lies in everyday life, in the ordinary… take a moment to pause and look around you. That’s when the magic happens.” — Anna Katzis (66:02)

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Summary

This episode is a practical masterclass in joyful, courageous living—full of insights for anyone struggling with communication, boundaries, workplace confidence, family estrangement, or the pressure to “have it all.” Both Hoda and Jefferson model vulnerability, humor, and empathy, encouraging listeners to seek connection, advocate for themselves, communicate clearly, and savor ordinary moments of joy.

Perfect for:

• Anyone navigating family or workplace dynamics
• Listeners seeking actionable communication advice
• Those looking to reclaim their energy and time for what matters most

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“Serve your words neat.” — Jefferson Fisher (47:42)
“If you want to heal your relationships, it starts with the next conversation.” — Jefferson Fisher (31:36)

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Transcript

[Jefferson Fisher]

Foreign.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

Hi guys.

[Hoda Kotb]

Welcome to Joy 101, the podcast. I'm so happy that you're here. We are mid summer and I was just thinking about one on one time in life, you know, how sometimes you do family vacations or family dinners, or you go out with your friends, et cetera, et cetera. And I did something last week where I took my 16 year old niece on a little mini vacation, just the two of us. And we'd never done that before. And it was one of these spectacular vacations, not because of where we went or what we did, because we were together. And she asked me during the vacation, I was like, what was your favorite part?

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

She goes, oh, I love the spa, I love this.

[Hoda Kotb]

And then she said, what was your favorite part? And I said, my favorite part was watching you and watching her kind of come out of her shell, watching her blossom, listening to her talk about school, about life, about boys, about everything. And I realized had it not been for that time together alone, we would have never had that conversation. She would have been 17 and then she would have gone off to college. And then, you know, life rolls on. So it was a reminder to me. And just today, in fact, I'm in our office. My 7 year old came here to my office to spend part of the day with me. So I think whenever we carve up time, which we all have to all the time, it's the way we live. But I think every now and then taking out some time to do something individually, to do something one on one. And I feel like I learned stuff too. I'm not like, you know, Ms. Aunt Hody, the advice giver. I feel like I was on the receiving end and I learned a lot about her. I also learned that the less I talk, the more she talks. I learned that she has tons of wisdom. My niece does. I learned that not everyone's going to be on my schedule. I like to get up early and exercise and she kind of got up later, but I realized we met in the middle. So good advice is so important and it can come from everywhere. And I'm so excited about my next guest because if you want to talk good advice, I've got two words for you. Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson Fisher. Okay, so some of you may know Jefferson Fisher already. He's a former trial attorney. He actually still is a trial attorney, but he started giving great life advice. Advice about boundaries, about saying no, about how to ask for a raise, all these things. So in his words, he started off as an attorney, which is an observer of people and a way to argue. And he realized that arguing doesn't win, but listening often does. So he said God kind of steered him into this other profession. I heard him on the Mel Robbins podcast and on Diary of a CEO and a bunch of other places. And now I can't unsee him. And I have this beautiful conversation with Jefferson. He taught me things. He has great advice. If you are in a relationship and not communicating, Jefferson Fisher is your guy. If you are concerned about how am I going to ask my boss for a raise, I'm too afraid Jefferson Fisher is the guy. If you're somebody who's just trying to put some boundaries up because you're saying yes to everybody and you're like an empty vessel, Jefferson Fisher is your guy. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jefferson Fisher. This is an I Heart podcast Guaranteed

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Hoda Kotb]

Okay, first of all, I'm so happy to be with you for multiple reasons. Number one, you're so funny because the

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

minute I saw you somewhere on Insta

[Hoda Kotb]

or whatever, you're all I see now. Like, it's like when I wanted to buy a Toyota Sienna, all I could now all I ever see on the high, I'm like, there's another. Oh my God, they're everywhere.

[Jefferson Fisher]

They're everywhere.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you're everywhere, which I think is so cool.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

Tell me about whether you hit the

[Hoda Kotb]

scene as kind of an explosion and then you're here or, or was it a slow build? Because if you're looking for advice on

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

how to speak to people, how to

[Hoda Kotb]

be calm, all boundaries, you seem to have a ton of answers. So how did you make your emergence onto this platform?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, I started probably a little over three years ago or so. And I just an attorney, I'm still an attorney. My wife's an attorney. They're two young kids. And right around that time I thought, well, I, I wanted, I was at a big defense firm and I wanted to go off and do my own thing in my late 20s. Like I can, I can do this. And so at that time I thought, well, I need to be on social media. And so I started making videos shortly after on like, what can I make that's just content for, for good in the world? You know, there's no shortage of good things in the world, so how could I just help? And I thought, well, people think that attorneys know how to argue. So I was like, how can I? I made a video on how to argue like an attorney. But it was different than most people think. You know, instead of trying to win, is trying to understand and, and I think there's a lot of contrast there. And I gave advice on not only my own personal experience, I'm a fifth generation attorney, as everybody in my family is an attorney. And then, you know, if you've been married, if you have kids, there's a lot of lessons there. My faith as well. And so I just started answering Questions. And I never in a million years thought this is where it would be. There was never let me go online, and this is what I'm working towards. And when I have this no it in, like, I barely put some stuff out and then it just went nuts.

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, you have like almost 7 million followers. I was looking at, I was like, wait, what? I mean, this is crazy.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

But I did have to go way

[Hoda Kotb]

back because I love to look for a commencement address. I always feel like that's a real tell. And no matter who I interview, I'm like, I wonder if they've ever given a commencement address. Well, I saw one that you gave

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

at your own school.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I did.

[Hoda Kotb]

And you were, first of all, adorable. Secondly, your timing and your humor. So I know your advice works, but life, I feel like, especially in this field of communication, which I'm intimately familiar with too in. It's like a lot of things are about timing and how you go about it. When you were a little kid, was this just one of your things? Like you. You had that thing. People laughed when you said things.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I was definitely. I was definitely a ham. I was definitely, you know, I see myself in my son now, who is the exact, you know, exact same way. I put on a lot of little performances. I had, like, little mock trials, and I did mock trial even competitively in college. But yeah, it was definitely something that's. That's always kind of been there and to see this kind of turn into that path, because a lot of it is also creative in some sense of how you come up with videos and how can I distill things and make it really practical and digestible? And so it's funny how God's going to just use these gifts in a way that says, okay, you started in law, but I'm going to switch you over to start this way. Yeah. And so it's. It's just been a really full circle moment that I just never, ever, you know, I feel like some people get, you know, they climb towards something and other people get pushed towards something. And that was definitely mine, where I. I just never. I had a friend, Oda. I'm not kidding. When I was on Instagram, right before I started making videos at a friend who was another attorney, and he had a thousand followers on Instagram and I

[Hoda Kotb]

was like, 1,000 followers?

[Jefferson Fisher]

How could you ever get a thousand followers? Because everybody I had was just friends from, you know, high school and law school.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, your people. What I love about this is, what's interesting to me about you is you're an attorney and attorneys know how to argue or as you said now to understand the person you're opposite from.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

But I feel like the stuff you're

[Hoda Kotb]

talking about is nothing about that. I mean, it is about communicating, but it's really about life. It's about connecting. It's about understanding. It's more in your, it's more like spirit and in your, you know, being as opposed to how am I going to organize these thoughts so I can say it in the right way? I mean, so what? Some of the worst communicators I know, I connect with soul to soul. You know, you feel their vibe. I mean, there are certain people, Jefferson, when I walk in a room, I feel totally at ease.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

And there are some people, I may

[Hoda Kotb]

or may not know them. I feel kind of like my back's up. What? And, and I'm sure you've had these kind of feelings in the courtroom and among friends.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

Why is it that there are people

[Hoda Kotb]

who instantly put us at ease? We're like, oh, I like that person. I don't know them, but I like them.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It has something to do with part charisma.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think it's deeper than that because charisma is not something you can. Exactly. You can, you can say charismatic things. You can give compliments, you can, you know, give things with, with honey instead of vinegar. Warmth is something different. Warmth is a, is a feeling that needs no words, that they just all of a sudden, your shoulders relax. If I were to, you know, ask you what's a memory in your past where you just, you have to like. For me, I can go back to being in my grandparents living room and I can feel the texture of the couch and I can smell it. And I just know when my grandmother came in, she just put me at ease. Right. I just. Hey, baby, come here. Come here, darling. Like, you're just, you're good.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And there's certain people in your life that whenever the world's really reactive, they, they stay.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Just steady. And you look, we're always looking for these anchors in personalities that when the ship's rocking, you don't, you don't want to go for the person who's really reactive. You're looking for the person who's really steady. And when they can bring that warmth that is, it's just a glow about them that you go, I don't, I can't put my, my finger on it. But there's something about their personality that says I'm safe, I, I'm welcome. And I'M enough. And when you find that person in your life, you cling to them because we know what it's like. On the opposite, when there's that person that whenever you're around your anxiety spikes, you feel way more. Everything just feels off kilter and you feel emotionally reactive. It's the people that decide that they want to spend the time with you. And usually they're a lot slower. And the way they enunciate, you know. Yeah, that's, that's the cue, by the

[Hoda Kotb]

way, that's so interesting. I had an instant parenting thought when you said that, because there was one day, my daughter Haley will never hear this, so what do I care? So she was throwing things in the trash. That mattered to me. It was one of those days where she was in some kind of defiance. So there was a poem that I loved. She took it, dropped it in the trash. I. And I sat on the couch and I was calm. Then she took my computer and put it in a trash can. I was calm. I sat there. It was like I was thinking about. People used to sit at lunch counters. Not to compare, but quiet resistance. I'm like, I'm going to be the eye of the hurricane right here. I'm totally calm. And after about 10 minutes, she pulled everything out. She came over on the couch, she sat with me and she's cuddled with me and said, oh, you know, I'm sorry. And then explained whatever was bothering her at the time. But do you use this in parenting because you have a six and an eight year old. Yeah. And I know that that must be one of the things that helps.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh yeah. It's always knowing that for the most part, you know, we're just big kids. And so like my daughter this morning, we're under a huge jet lag. My daughter is just in tears this morning and there's no anything that she would typically like to eat decide she now hates. Right. And, and she's short tempered, super whiny and just like you. We could have come in and said, you have to fall under. What I say is acceptable and not acceptable. But with children, it's the same when they were a baby. You know, when they're screaming, it's like, you're not going to get mad that they're crying. It's. You go, okay. I see that they're hungry, they're tired. Like just those two right there.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

They're, they're, they're overwhelmed by something. It's the same for, for us. And so it helps me so much especially in my kids. I see so much of myself in them that not only had me more getting more compassion for myself because it's like why would I, would I talk to my kids the same way I talk to myself, you know, sometimes. And so that, that those checks and balances of knowing that when she was starting to complain and she didn't want the, the cereal bar that she loves, I was like, you just, you just need me to hold you? Yes. And you know, I, of course I'm holding her. I was like, are we just sleepy? It's like that right there is all they, they really need. And I think deep down a lot of the times that's it really is all it comes comes down comes down is we're still, we're still looking for dealing with those basic needs.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

I think we spend so much of our lives waiting for the big moments, the birthdays, the vacations, the milestones. But the truth is, some of the happiest moments show up on the most ordinary days. So like this, I'll stop and do a cvs.

[Hoda Kotb]

Because I need one thing.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

Somehow the best part of the trip

[Hoda Kotb]

is never the thing I came for.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

So maybe I'll grab a delicious well market snack, or maybe I'll wander over

[Hoda Kotb]

to the Joyward collection. It's really full of fun, cool seasonal

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

decor, thoughtful little gifts, and those little

[Hoda Kotb]

discoveries that make you so glad you stopped in. I have to tell you, if you're

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

an extra care member, you're going to save on things you're already buying. And those extra bucks really do add up.

[Hoda Kotb]

Just watching that total go down at the checkout never, ever gets old. I know life's busy.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

We're all juggling a lot. And that's why I think those little unexpected moments of joy matter so much. So the next time you're running errands, stop by your local CVS pharmacy.

[Hoda Kotb]

You may go in for something you

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

need, but don't be surprised if you leave with something that simply makes your

[Hoda Kotb]

day a little brighter.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Tour Announcer]

Ready for a night that's nothing short of iconic. Salt N Pepa and TLC are heading your way for the It's Iconic tour, their landmark co headlining tour with special guests in Vogue. Believe it or not, this is the first time all three of these legendary groups have toured together. And I mean legendary. It's gonna be packed with decades of R and B and hip hop hits. So don't miss your chance to experience these icons. Grab your tickets today.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer?

[Hoda Kotb]

May I suggest your big wireless bill?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time.

[Hoda Kotb]

Fortunately though, Mint's story is better.

[Jefferson Fisher]

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[Tour Announcer]

That's it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

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[Commercial Voice]

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[Hoda Kotb]

See terms I think all the stuff you talk about when it comes to communication is so important because relationships fall apart because of bad communication work. Relationships go sideways because of bad communication. I mean you can and you think they understand you. You thought you communicated it. Didn't you understand what I was saying when I said X? But will you talk to that point? Because I think some people have trouble being completely clear. They assume the man they're with should understand their feelings or the boss that they're dealing with. You know, should kind of get a B or C. Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There's this quote that I love that it says the number one problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's so good.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think that is just gold because most of the time the biggest cause of miscommunication is what was said was not the thing that was heard. Okay, I like I, I was, I said this because you know what it's like in relationships where somebody replies back to you and they go that's not what I said. And you're like, yeah, that's exactly what you said. I wish I had it on camera. I wish I had this recorded so you could see exactly how you said it. And the truth is, we are very bad, subjective judges of how we say things. We hear it in our head, but we're not great at also accepting how it is to receive it. Communication is not just something said, it also has to be received. And when you continue to give voice to only the unvoiced expectations and expect people to read between the lines, you are just setting yourself up for disappointment. Instead of saying, that's not what I said, turn that into, tell me what you heard. Tell me, tell me what, Tell me what you heard. What am I missing when you stop to say, okay, there's a disconnect here. Let's talk about the disconnect. Instead of me telling you how, yeah, dumb you are, how much you don't care how this is always you and you never listen. Instead of going towards the person, you say, okay, well, there must be a disconnect here. Help me. Let's stop and let's break it down. And though that sounds really simple to say, let's time out and let's talk about the process of how the communication is happening rather than talking about the content of the communication. It sounds simple, but it is. It is everything. When you're able to break down and find where's the. Where's the knot in the string, by

[Hoda Kotb]

the way, when you just said the thing about, hey, wait, tell me what you heard. My shoulders literally dropped down because we've all been in the.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

Wait, what?

[Tour Announcer]

What?

[Hoda Kotb]

But difficult conversations, all of them. I mean, I don't know how many you've had in your lifetime. I've had a bunch too, where you have to have this conversation. But sometimes there's a philosophy, at least it was in our family growing up, is it will die on the vine eventually, so let it go. And, you know, why are we going to rock the boat? Everything is fine. You know, in the course of all the problems, this one ain't so big, so we don't need to hash it out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Hoda Kotb]

I think a lot of people just dust things away. Why is it important to have these kind of conversations? And when do they reach the level of, oh, God, we have to have it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it's definitely something that is generational, I would say. I feel like here and now, in the, in the times that we live in, communication is more talked about than it's ever been. Is that there's still that you know, hush. Let's keep it under wraps. What would the neighbors think? We can't let people know, you know, how we really, really are. We don't want to bring it up. We don't want to ruin the moment. And we're all here together at this family thing because this grandparent is still alive and we know once they're gone, we're all, you know, going our separate ways. When, when you have all these unvoiced things.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And you bury them, they are only sure to resurface years. Because we know what that's like of parent relationships especially that it's. There are people listening right now who don't probably communicate with their mom or their dad anymore because of all the things that was, that were left unsaid like that, that misalignment in relationships, that miscommunication, that estrangement. It doesn't happen in one fell swoop, like one big conversation. It usually happens because all of these little bitty paper cut conversations where a conversation could have happened but. But it didn't. And so when you leave it unvoiced, those things grow. So how do you know when to bring something up? To me, it's always the next day rule. If I'm still carrying it the next day, if I'm still carrying it the next day. Time has a way of sifting priorities. And so if something's bothering me right now, may not bother me in the morning, but if I wake up and I'm still carrying it and it's still heavy on my heart, that's something that needs to be, needs to be voiced. And when you can say, hey, I need to tell you something that's been heavy on my heart, people listen when you say, I need to tell you something that's been tugging on my heart. There's something about when you invoke the heart, it's a difference between Hoda, me asking you, saying, hey, how are you doing? And me also, or me asking, hey, Hoda, how's your heart? Right. There's something about you're not going to get the same answer. And so whenever you invoke the heart, I think that has a way of getting right to the point of the conversation rather than sweeping it under the rug.

[Hoda Kotb]

So if when you said there are people who haven't spoken to their parents, their mom, their dad, their siblings, somebody a best friend from years gone by, how, if that's the case and it's been a freeze out for, you know, a while, how do you go about repairing if it's on your heart, which I'm sure it is. When people wake up and it's a birthday or it's whatever day. How do you even start the conversation or the process of thawing that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I like. I like the word thaw. I. I like to follow this approach that I teach. And it's. It's one beginning with the. The words I know sounds like. I know there's distance between us. I know we haven't spoken in a while. I know things aren't how we both want them to be. Right? It's. It's. It's saying the already understated, you know, it's all. We already both know. We don't have to voice it. It's unspoken. Two is, I'm not. This is where you address. You forecast what they're already thinking about the conversation, the rebuttal. So it would be, you know, I know there's a distance between us. I'm not asking you to apologize. I'm not bringing things. Rehash old wounds. I'm not trying to. It is. I'm not. You're addressing that. And three is, I'm ready. And it's not, I'm ready to talk because nobody probably wants to hear you talk. It's, I'm ready to listen. Right?

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, I'm ready to listen.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's not, I'm ready to talk. I'm ready to listen. And there's something about somebody saying, I'm ready to listen makes them want to lean into it more. Because now you're an empty cup, right? Instead of saying, hey, I have a full glass, and I'm ready to splash it on you whenever you're ready. It's.

[Anna Katzis]

It's.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's me saying, hey, I. I am. I'm an empty vessel right now. I know things are not where we want them to be, and I am. I'm not at all interested and trying to rehash the past. I'm ready to listen whenever. Whenever you are. And so there's something about that that incorporates that element of I can affirm how you feel without having to agree with it. And that must be hard. I can see why you feel that way. If that's how you interpreted it. Of course you. You would think that I am everything that you say that I am right now. And there's something about the contrasts that's going to make that conversation have a better chance of coming to life.

[Hoda Kotb]

Would you have that convo in person or on the phone, or does it matter?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Ideally, you want it in person. There's nothing like seeing somebody face to face. There's nothing that can ever replace that. Face to face is the most high emotion medium that you have. Text is the lowest. You know, email's the lowest. I. I could tell you if you asked me a question by text, Hoda, and I just said, okay, you'd be like, well, what kind of okay is that? You know, is he mad? Is he not? Does he think it's dumb? You never know. Phone is also great. Some people don't get that chance because the other person just kind of ices them out. I think voice test texts are really good. Voicemails are good. Anything that they can hear your tone of your voice, if you put it in words most often, unless it's a handwritten letter, which I think adds to that emotion and character that is unique to you. But if it's something that is not unique, unique, such as text or email, then they will read. They'll interpret your emotions for you. And it's. It's never positive. They'll read it in the worst light.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, you're right. I was just thinking about this guy I was interviewing, and he said something about. He goes, think of someone who you wanted to say thank you to, who you just haven't for whatever reason. He goes, now write him a letter, you know, and describe all the ways that you wanted to thank them. And then he said, and then I want to see you walk up to the door and ring the doorbell and read it. Just read it right to them. And I was just imagining the feeling of someone walking up who, you know, and it's like words unspoken, because we all carry sort of words unspoken. But I think back to the kind of difficult conversations, you know, I always weirdly feel better after one. I hate them when they're happening. You're like, this is the worst. My heart is pounding. I'm sweating. Like, I just feel so bad. But what have you learned?

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

Or what have.

[Hoda Kotb]

I mean, with all the people you've. You've been dealing with over time, what happens after you finally say whatever the thing is you've wanted to say for so long but have been holding on to it?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, the. The moment, the difficult conversation is over, if you. If you handle it well, let's put that, you know, exception. If. If you approach it with wanting to understand more than trying to prove. If you approach it in a way that's soft, softer. If not, not just in demeanor, but also in tone. I'm not saying you can't be assertive. Let's Say you handle exactly how you want it to be. What I have found time and time again that the conflict they were so scared of was the very breakthrough that they were missing, that they were needing the most. And when you can have that conversation with that brother you haven't seen in three years, or you can have that conversation with that supervisor or that difficult thing, you know, you need to say to that spouse and you reach it and you're able to actually come together through that conflict. Because now you've, now you've been through something. You've created trust. It's, it's a weight off your shoulders. All of a sudden you feel like you life looks better, relationships are better. I am somebody that truly believes that if you want to heal your relationships, it starts with the next conversation. I mean, you have that ability in how we communicate. And I rarely, if ever, whenever somebody's told me, say, yeah, I tried it, but it made it worse. It was usually not on their account. It was because the other person, you know, wasn't, wasn't ready. And you can't control all of that.

[Hoda Kotb]

What if it's a one way street? I mean, you know, some people are with spouses who are just set in their ways. You know, it's sort of like someone was saying to me like every few years you should reintroduce yourself to your spouse. Like, I don't like Applebee's anymore. I used to love it and I don't eat there. I don't want to go sit in that same restaurant. But you, you always liked it, but you always like a jean jacket. It's like, I don't like a jean jacket. But if, you know, if, if you

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

get to a point where your spouse

[Hoda Kotb]

is like kind of, this is our relationship and this is life. You know, this is what, this is

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

the way it is.

[Hoda Kotb]

And they're not open to this kind of discussion. What is a person to do? Because I've, I have friends who are in that category. Their spouses don't really want to hear it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, well, I think there's a, there's. The key issue is whether they want to or they want to hear it. It's hard to be in a relationship where you're the only one rowing, you know, where you feel like your shoulders are just. And there's probably people we both know their shoulders are getting a little tired. And there has to be, to me, two things. One is the ability to think outside of yourself, meaning to be able to repair when conflict and ruptures happen. And the second of all, you have to be able to take accountability. I think that's one of the biggest issues in relationships, is where one person refuses to take accountability. So patterns just continue to continue to repeat. I can choose to have a very difficult conversation with you, Oda, and you may completely disagree. That's still something that within myself, I still have that same amount of relief because I said it. I chose to say what I needed to say. And at some point there has to be, which conversation am I going to take more? Which one ranks higher in priority? The relationship and conversation I'm having with myself and who I am, or the conversation I have to have with you? And if I always have the conversation with you, taking priority over the conversation with me, well, then I will always make sure that I'm not okay. Unless you're okay. Right. It's. That's the much more insecure way to approach it. I have my grandparents. Oh. To do this thing where they have a yearly contract that they actually write out. Now, it's not like, enforceable or anything, but so they. At their anniversary, they have like, written things.

[Tour Announcer]

Like what?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Like, who's going to handle the trash? Who's going to, you know, this is how many times we're going to go on a date night. This is. Who's going to be responsible for this? And it's. It's in humor, it's in fun. Of just how you said, you're not always married to the same person. I mean, you can be married to the same human, but sometimes not always the same person. We're always changing and growing. And so they kind of do this thing. My grandfather will say, you sure you want to go another round? And, you know, they make that. They'll sign it and kind of keep it amongst themselves as well.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's got to catch. I mean, sorry, that has got to catch. It's super cute. Let me ask you about conversations that have always been hard for me up until I think. I mean, I hate to say this, but, like, my mid-50s, I'm 61 right now. My mid-50s. So all through my professional career, I have said thank you. I was hired at, you know, in a. At my very first job, and I was making more working at Ponderosa, and I was happy to take the job because it was like, you know, it's like more of an education. But as it went through all these different jobs throughout, I knew I was underpaid with my co anchor. I was underpaid here and there. I was hired at Dateline and I was the lowest paid correspondent. I was making less than I did when I was in local, but, but I wanted that job. And every, and this continued on and on and on. And when you start behind the eight ball, it takes a while to get to it. And I remembered once saying to my agents, they said, well, this is all they're going to be paying. I go, I don't, I don't love it enough. So you know, ask for this number or we're not doing it. And it was when I finally like got some moxie and the agent said, you know, they're gonna say no. I go, okay, well you can ask. So she asked and she said, oh my God.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

They said yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

I was like, okay. So the next time I knew where the bar was and it went on. But the conversation of this is what I'm worth, this is what I believe I bring to the table was extremely hard for me because I always felt lucky to be at the network, lucky to be here. Sort of like, wow, I was having pinch me moments up until the moment I left, like, wow, how does this happen? So those kinds of conversations, whether you're in a room with your bosses, you're asking for a raise, you need what X, whatever it is, how to start those and how to have the confidence because you can say the words and not believe it and look like a scared deer. And they're going to say, come back later, not right now, not a good time. You know those lines.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Awesome question. I, I, I think that whenever especially you are, let's say you've, you've put in the work to establish yourself, whether in your resume or you're, you know that you're going to be starting from somewhere and eventually you've gotten to a place where you feel like, okay, I got a lot under my wings here and here's what I know. I feel like I am worth compared to what everybody else is doing. What I have found for those that I have guided through a lot of these situations is where you talk about the role more so of ego. Let's say you're wanting to hire somebody and you can either start talking about them as a person or what I like to say is start talking about the role. So we have an assistance manager position and this manager position is going to require this, this and this. And I'd love for that person to be you. And whoever's going to be in that role is going to need to do X, Y and Z. Now it works the same way. And here's the magic of it. That I've seen is when I've seen people interview or have these discussions with their supervisors and say, whatever position, let's say they're trying to get into it now, this assistant manager's position that I'm going for, or whoever this slot is, or whoever I choose to work for, I need to see is going to require X, Y, and Z from what I'm bringing to the table. And I know my value without having to go into it, because you already have my resume and all the recs and whatever that is is going to require X, Y, and Z. And when you come into the conversation with requirements, people respect you more than if you have none. So when you come in with a level of, I'm not talking like, you know, swagger, where you're saying, this is, this is, this is what I have to have and this is what it's going to be, and you need to walk away. There's something about requirements that say, when I come into this, it's going to require this much of my time, this amount, amount of money, this position, if I am to, if I'm going to, I would hope that it would be this organization. All right? Whoever I work for, whoever I work for, this role I'm going to fill is going to be X, Y, and Z. For me to fill it, I would love for that organization to be you. You know, that's a good flip. Exactly. And so it makes them think, oh, wow, okay, one, this person has confidence. One second. I know they definitely believe in themselves. And if they believe in themselves, it makes me believe in them.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And then three, man, I don't want them to go off to somebody else.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And so they, they, they tend to get to the, the yeses more quickly than if you come in. And, you know. Well, I'd really hope. It would be really nice if. No.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You need to, you need to come in with, I know what I'm worth. I know what I've done. Yeah. And I, I, I'd hope that this would be the organization. If not, you know, I have, I have some others that I'm talking to, too.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, that's okay. Oh, I like that.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

What about.

[Hoda Kotb]

Because, and this is kind of in the same vein, but being heard in a meeting, being heard when you are somebody who's, you know, it's a big group setting and you and a lot of women who are listening to this, I'm sure have heard this, have had this feeling is you're saying something and it's, you know, your voice is softer, whatever you don't get. And then they call on the other guy who's next to you, or you say something and someone else repeats it, and then they're like, great job, Bill. Yeah, you're like, I just said that literally one second ago. But how do you cut through as. How do you cut through in a, in a meeting so that you can feel confident enough to state what you want to state and, you know, make sure that you're heard.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So first would be you want to grab attention. So what that is you grabbing the mic. Second of all, you want to add curiosity to make them want to listen. And three, once you have that attention and that curiosity, then you need to lead with authority. So this, to me is what it would sound like. You get people's attention when you use their name in a very steady tone. Not like as if you're asking permission. Like, if I were to ask you, you know, can you pass the salt, Hoda, I wouldn't ask it like, can you pass the salt? Like, as if you don't know what it is. Like, you, you, you have to say it in a tone because there's some people. Let's say I needed to interrupt you and you're talking in a meeting, or there's a, there's a chance for me to communicate. And I was like, hoda, like, people would be like, huh? As if you're more insecure.

[Hoda Kotb]

But I was like, hoda, right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Second all is you need to add contrast by that. I want you to say, I see something different or I take another approach or I get there a different way, and people go, oh, okay, what is, what is, what is that? Exactly? Because if I just led with, you know, you know what? I have a, I have a thought here. They're like another thought. Like, that's, yeah, that's not going to do anything. We all have thoughts. I need to hear that you have something that's going to move the conversation, the discussion forward. Once you have that three, anything you can use around the word direction. Direction is a great captain word. And so when I can say, you know, Hoda, you know what? I get there a different way. To me, I see the direction of what we can do is blah, blah, blah. And so what you're saying is, hey, while I have the wheel of the ship, this is the direction that I would take. And at that moment, it allows people to go, okay, do we want to follow that direction and take it there? Or do we want to continue to open the discussion? But it's going to keep it. Prevent it from somebody just going, okay, that was dumb. Let's move that aside. Another that I really love. A quick little tip that I teach is if you can use percentages. There's something about percentages. Or maybe, depending on the context you're in, maybe like an analogy. So, for example, if you come in and say, hey, I have an idea, most people will shoot it down because it's not their idea, Right. So they want to point out all the holes in it rather than saying, awesome job. But if you come in and say, hey, look, I have about 65% of an idea here, I need your help with. The other 35 people all of a sudden go, oh, okay, let's. You know the type.

[Hoda Kotb]

What is that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah. They want to go for the 35% because now they're. They see that as the challenge to meet interesting. Yeah. Or if you say, look, I think I'm in the red zone. I need help kind of pushing it into the end zone here. There's something about using analogies that say, I need your help, rather than saying, you know what? I don't really know here. You know, I could totally be wrong. Get rid of it. It's over. Yeah, exactly. You want to. You want to push the conversation forward.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, speaking of that language, I was meeting with this CEO coach because I. I'm. I run this company now called Joy 101. And I haven't. You know, I've worked in capacities of leadership, but never as a boss or a CEO. So this guy gave me some advice, which sounds kind of like what you were just saying. We were having a conversation, and I was like.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

He was like, tell me about this.

[Hoda Kotb]

That and the other. What's.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

What's good?

[Hoda Kotb]

What's upsetting? What's this? What's that? I was like, okay. So I started. I was like, I was kind of upset about X, and I was sort of happy about Y, and I was

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

a little bit pissed about it.

[Hoda Kotb]

And so after I was telling him this whole thing, he goes, stop. I go, what? He goes, you were kinda pissed. I go, yeah. He goes, no, no, you were pissed. It's okay. You were sort of upset.

[Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

You were upset. And he said, start pulling out those words. He goes, in your language, don't. He goes, don't stop dead and go, oh, God, there it is again. He goes, just recognize. Oh, there it is. Oh, there, there it goes. And then I started looking through. This is so funny, Jefferson. I was looking through my old text texts. I was like, oh, my God. Hey, it was like the. If. If I pulled out all those words and I saw afterwards.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

It's so, like, it's so much clearer.

[Commercial Voice]

A.

[Hoda Kotb]

You know, what direction I. We're going is clear. When I take out all of the.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

Hey, I was wondering if.

[Hoda Kotb]

Buh ba ba.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

When you're finished with this and don't

[Hoda Kotb]

worry if you know, and then by the time you're done, they're like, is that a priority or not? The person receiving it. Like, I don't get it. But words like that do better, right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes, yes. A million times yes. Especially the. The adverbs, the words that end in ly. So many people will begin their sentence, you know, it's their time to talk in the meeting, and they go so basically that it's. It's. You've already cut yourself down. You know, why do we hate that?

[Hoda Kotb]

Why is that a no?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's.

[Commercial Voice]

It.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It slows down the prose.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's not. It's not needed. If I say, well, clearly, well, if it was clear, you wouldn't need that word. If it was, well, obviously, well, it was obvious you wouldn't have to state it. And so when we think of the ly words or the other adverbs, like, just like so very. Really, why can't you just be happy for them? Why do you have to say, I'm so happy for. It's. There's something about the filling it with fluff. So imagine if I wanted to come in and said, you know, hey, just. Just wanted to check on you. Just. Just saying hi. Instead of that, I said, I leaned into it and said, hey, I wanted to say hi to you. How are you doing? Like, it's something about stepping into your language rather than way. And to me, I compare it to adding ice cubes to your. Your drink. They're like, you know, well, you know, I'm sort of. I'm kind of. You know, I'm not really.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, you're.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You're filling your sentence. You're watering down your message to me. You got. You just. You don't need them. Get rid of them. Serve your words.

[Hoda Kotb]

Get rid of them.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, serve your.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

Serve your words.

[Hoda Kotb]

Neat. Is that one of your T shirts?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I should.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my God. With a little bourbon cup, we can see the whole thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's all.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love that. I love that.

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[Hoda Kotb]

is is never the thing I came for.

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Hoda Kotb]

Just watching that total go down at the checkout never ever gets old. I know life's busy.

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[Hoda Kotb]

You may go in for something you

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Hoda Kotb]

day a little brighter.

[Podcast Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Hoda Kotb]

Ihear, you know, there are certain people for me who are like, energizing too. Like I. When I'm around them, my cup fills up too. And there are certain people who are. They're sort of depleting, you know, that's just when you're done, you hang up the phone. We've all had the person. You hang up and you go, oh my God. Like you don't just. But this always brings up boundaries because sometimes you gotta, you know, you gotta have conversations. Maybe not all of them you want to, but talk if you would, about what's a. Like, I like to call them loving boundaries, but putting boundaries up so that the world and people don't kind of drain your. Your battery.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, boundaries. I mean, they're. There's something that you cannot do without, especially in conversation. Whether it's something that's very loving relationship to your, you know, in the, in the office and you're having to make it very clear where, where you stand on things. How I like to talk about boundaries is a very simple formula because it can get really. There's so much on boundaries that it's easy to get lost. To me, it is simply putting the boundary in place of me. I beginning with the word I. So instead of you, you can't talk to me that way. Instead of that, which is only ensuring that they have all the control. Instead I'm going to say, I don't respond to that tone. I don't respond to disrespect. When somebody raises their voice, I don't respond to that volume. Right. It has nothing to do with them, has everything to do with me. As if my own operator's manual. If you want to communicate with me, this is the yeses and the no's. If it's a no, then we're not going to communicate that way. That's how that's going to go. So it would be, you know, I don't respond to disrespect if you continue to speak to me in this manner or in this way. And third is this is the end of the conversation. That's how I, I like to put it. Because when you say the end of the conversation, what happens is if they want to talk and continue the conversation, then it is incumbent on them to change the attitude. And so whenever, Even with my kids, and I do it very lovingly and I say, look, I'm not going to respond to that rude answer, okay? If. If you want me to come play with you. If you. If you don't change, I'll say, if you don't change how you're talking to me, then I'm not going to be able to come play with you right now. And I mean, just all of a sudden, they change it right into that.

[Commercial Voice]

That.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That. That mood or whatever it is, and it goes all the way. Elevated to. Plenty of times I've been on the phone, like, I know what it's like to hang up the phone, go, oh, my gosh, yeah, with that person. And it's like, hey, look, I don't respond to being spoken to that way. If this is the way that you want to handle things, and this needs to be the end of the conversation, and the best thing about it is, if you're going to have that consequence, you are going to hang up. You can't. You don't just click, you know, you don't just hang up. Right? That's. That's not the assertive way to do it. You need to speak it out loud. I'm gonna. I'm gonna end the conversation or I'm gonna. I'm gonna leave the room now. I'm gonna get out of the car now. There's something about calling your shot like you're in a game of pool that says what I say I'm gonna do. I'm going to. To. To do. It's, you know, it's. It's like it's calling. Calling backboard, you know, when you. When you make a shot.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's so good. This is good. So I was just. As you were talking, I was just. Not that I was. I was thinking about how your life must have changed since all of this has happened to you. Just how weird is it? Like, what is happening with your life now that people probably recognize you and say, like, what is life like for you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's a lot of. It's trying to get settled, Hoda. I mean, it is. It is weird. It is. It is weird to imagine making videos only in your car for, you know, a year and a half and not seeing any human. And then, you know, it's. It's a whole. It's a whole thing. But I. I've learned that as soon as you get a taste of fame, you got to spit it out. Like it's just not, it's, it's, it's not great for. I've learned the mistakes of trying to think that you have to say yes to everything because you never know if it's going to stop and like when is the ride going to stop. And at this point, I've learned how to say no and find out here. This is what I've learned, Hoda, is what I used to do was I would think in my mind that what's best for the business is what's best for the family. And I have learned through pain and hardship and learned it the hard way of flip. You have to flip it of what's best for the family is what's best for the business. And so trying to figure out this whole world that I'm in and I know you and I have mutual friends in this space of like, how do you do this? I mean, there's not. I went to law school where I studied how to be an attorney. And then I'm in this world where I never even thought this was a occupation or what it existed. And so even if my future self came and warned me, I don't, I wouldn't be able to believe them because there's not like a blog that says, hey, your whole life blew up online. Here's what, here's what to do, here's what to do.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And the biggest thing is, is knowing and telling people of. I make plenty of mistakes.

[Anna Katzis]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

My thing is not at all I can't tell you how to be perfect. I can, I can tell you how to fix it when it doesn't because I've done it myself.

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, you know what's so interesting? Because when there is any public facing life, or I shouldn't even say public facing anyone who's got an all consuming career or busy career life. And this happened, happened to me a lot. Which is one of the reasons why I decided to step away when my kids were the age that they are, which is now 7 and 9, is that from the morning, from the beginning of the day, 3:30am until probably 4:00pm when you end up coming home, which is around dinner time for them. 4:35, you've given every ounce of stuff you had away all day.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

And I was even saying, you know, Ben Sasse was talking about this in one of his interviews, the congressman, he said, I used to think it was like a badge of honor to have a whole bunch of hotel keys to show all the places I've been, I would save them and save them and save them. And where he was giving all of his time and effort, which was to work. And I felt the same to work. And then when you come home and your kid's like, hey, you're like, hi. You're already barely functioning right. And you got nothing left in the tank. So this doesn't have to do with anyone who's in a, for, you know, a job that is public facing or not. It's any job or anything when you're out of juice at the end of the day. So what's, what do you do? I guess you just, it's just a matter of just shifting the whole game.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes, I, I, I, like I said, I learned the hard way after the book launch last year in March in the reception and like, it was just, I, I took time off last July and August to fix myself because anytime you're more public facing, in my view, it boosts all the good and it also boosts all the bad. And so whatever was a bad habit then becomes a much bigger bad habit. Like everything incrementally is, is harder. The good is really good and the bad's really bad. And so you have to, you have to be able to learn how to manage and work on that. Because to me, what you said is exactly spot on. That's, it answers the question of who's, who's getting the best of me and is it everybody that's online, you know, on social media, or who you're speaking to? Or is it, you know, your family or your kids who's getting the best version? Why, why in the world would I ever give my kids the second best version.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Of myself?

[Hoda Kotb]

And so that's, so you had to do a realignment.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. So you had to do a total realignment. Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

And I think anyone can do some like, I get it because I feel like, you know, like I always think this about Olympic athletes. Like you can't be great at something and be balanced. Simone Biles and Michael Phelps weren't worrying about balance. They were just worrying about being really, really good. And they were. And then in life, you know, when things start to, then things shift and you can, you know, now Michael Phelps has other things and Simone Biles the same. But it's hard to be great and, and have all the things that you want. And I think sometimes people choose and I think, you know, many, many times people will choose the work piece because the work piece is giving them the money for the vacation and the work piece is giving Them all that stuff.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, very like cats in the cradle kind of thing. I think, I think I do understand and appreciate how, you know, when you're in the grind and you, you, you feel like, who am I if I am not this or what I've always dreamed I could be or what? This has been my one ambition. And I forgot who said it, but it was, it was like this study that we're very bad at predicting how we're going to feel after something. And so for good or bad, so if we think we're going to get that Olympic medal or that promotion and we get it, we kind of don't feel as good as we thought. Yeah, we would. And then also for the bad, when it's like, oh, no, this could never happen if my marriage fails, if I, if I ever get fired, that'd be worse. And then it happens and you're like, this wasn't that bad.

[Hoda Kotb]

You know, it's, that's actually such, that's so smart.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And so we're all, we're just not good predictors of certain events in our, in our life. And so for me, I have to go. I could. Am I inconveniencing my family for my comfort in my ego? Am I inconveniencing somebody else? Am I putting, you know, there's certain things of, like, there might be somebody listening right now. And they go, okay, well, I really want to go do this. And I feel like I need to ask, you know, put my other person, my partner, in the position of like, hey, can I go do this?

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And you know, you're, you should have never even put them in that position to have to say yes. Like, you should have just chosen the family.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And, and that takes, that takes time.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And that was, and, and diligence. And so I can tell you it's been such a blessing to be able to, to touch the people we've been able to touch. It's. It's just a never ending feeling.

[Hoda Kotb]

I am so happy for your success. I'm so happy for all the things that you're creating and you're putting good out in the world. And I always feel like we have one ride around the sun. Might as well put good stuff out into it. I heard you with Thomas Rhett. I love Thomas so much on your podcast. So I encourage everyone to listen to Jefferson's podcast. I heard you on the Diary of a CEO. I saw you with Mel Robbins. I mean, people now after seeing this are gonna be like, oh, my God, I see Jefferson Everywhere, just like me. Me. So I. I just want to end with one final question before you head off. This podcast is called Joy 101. So I like to ask all my guests about what is bringing them joy. I know you just got off a bender, a flight from Australia, so probably sleep would be up there. But. But what's bringing you joy these days?

[Jefferson Fisher]

What's bringing me joy is knowing that my. My kids. It's. It's just my kids, you know, my. My. My. To be able to say no to things and say yes to them and. And my wife and to. Like, we. We did this trip in Australia, and I did it so much differently from the time that we traveled and did London, and I was so focused on publicity and press and do. And I just. We did it so differently where I just got to be dad and be present. Yeah.

[Anna Katzis]

And.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And my phone is full, Hoda, Full of pictures and videos, and it's just the biggest joy that I can't. It's hard for me not to look at one of my kids and just tear up. And that's that feeling of knowing that it could have been different and I could have cared, you know, about a whole different path. But to me, it's just. It's. It's bringing this into a moment of so much sheer joy of. Of. Of peace.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's. It's been. It's been wonderful. And truly I look forward to. To. Would love to you for you to be a mentor to me of how. How to. How to deal with this.

[Hoda Kotb]

Navigate. Yeah, well, you seem to be doing a pretty. Pretty good job, Telcier. I said hello, and your kids, too. Okay. All right. Thank. Thank you, Jefferson. I appreciate it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks, Oda.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay. That was a beautiful conversation. I love Jefferson so much. I feel like we're friends already. One thing that I'm kind of learning is how to slow down, how to, like, not rush through life, how to not rush through important conversations. Like Jefferson was saying, just how to slow down and observe. So on our Joy 101 app, you guys, I was listening to this incredible woman who, for just two or three minutes, showed me how to slow down. Her name is Anna Katzis, and she lives in Greece, and she works with us at Joy 101. But what she does is she just captures life's small moments. So sit back for a second. Take a deep breath first, and let's listen to Anacatsis.

[Anna Katzis]

This is the story of someone who has learned to notice. I used to feel that life moved by too quickly, and I realized it was up to me to slow it down, to create time to pause. I started by noticing small things, like the way the leaves look when the sunlight hits them, the golden color that washes over when the sun rises, how the birds sound as the world wakes up. I started to notice things in my routine, like how much I love starting my day with a warm cup of tea, using herbs from the garden and boiling it in the kettle, adding honey that a beekeeper made not too far from my village and sipping it slowly while gazing out the window, imagining what the day could hold. I noticed how beautiful it is to sit and watch my curtains gently flowing in the breeze. How happy I am to see my cat every day when I open the door to feed him, the way he follows me to his bowl, how calming it is to pet him and just observe what he does, the way he also observes me as I tend to the garden to water it. The more I slowed down, the more I noticed and I realized how much beauty the lies in everyday life in the ordinary. And so if there's one thing I recommend, it's to take a moment to pause and look around you. Because that's when the magic happens. That's when the ordinary becomes extraordinary.

[Hoda Kotb]

Beautiful words of wisdom. Hope you enjoyed. Thank you for listening to Joy 101, the podcast.

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Jefferson Fisher]

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[Jefferson Fisher]

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