Joy 101: Shawn Johnson East

Summary

---

Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb: Episode Summary

Guest: Shawn Johnson East

Release Date: June 22, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Joy 101, hosted by Hoda Kotb, features Olympic gold medalist and bestselling author Shawn Johnson East. The conversation dives deep into the pursuit and experience of joy—how it’s earned, how it evolves across different life stages, and how it can coexist with discipline and challenge. Hoda and Shawn reflect on the pressures of public achievement, the realities behind the Olympic spotlight, navigating friendship and loss, family and motherhood, and redefining what brings lasting fulfillment and joy.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hoda’s Reflection on Seeking Growth (00:11–05:23)

• Hoda opens by sharing her own journey into new territory as a CEO, hiring a leadership coach, and learning to be more direct (“be definitive”) about her feelings and strengths. She offers listeners two exercises:
  • Notice every time you use qualifying words (“kind of”, “a little”) and pause to reflect.
  • List 25 strengths and 25 weaknesses to gain an honest self-perspective.
• Sets the stage for a conversation with someone who has wrestled with life's pivotal transitions—Shawn Johnson East.

---

2. Shawn’s Olympic Highs and the “Now What?” (09:21–10:19)

• Hoda reminisces about Beijing 2008, asking Shawn what it felt like to be at the top at just 16.
  • Shawn: “It was exactly what you just said. Like the mountaintop. I had dreamt of that moment ... It was a dream come true. It's also such a roller coaster of emotions because to me, that was such a finish line. And I was only 16.” [09:49]
• Shawn shares that achieving her life’s goal so young left her uncertain: standing on the podium, she wondered, “What do I do now?” [10:19]

---

3. Friendship, Rivalry, and Loss with Nastya Liukin (10:53–13:43)

• Discusses media-driven rivalry with fellow gymnast Nastya Liukin. Despite being best friends, the external narrative strained their bond, leading to eight years without contact.
  • Shawn: “It felt like I lost a part of me. ... She's the only one who really understands me on that level. ... Both of our boyfriends at the time said, like, enough of this. You need to reach out. And I wrote this long letter ... She came back, and she was the same way. She’s like, ‘I’ve missed you.’” [12:28–13:40]

---

4. Stepping Away: Redefining Identity After the Olympics (14:09–18:33)

• After 2008, Shawn intended to leave gymnastics and study medicine. Instead, she was swept into media, appearances, and pressure to return to competition.
  • “Year after year, I kept ... deferring college ... finding myself faced with interviews where people are like, ‘Well, are you gonna go back?...’ And because I felt so lost ... I went back.” [14:09–15:11]
• Returning to sport, she realized the spark was gone: “Small pains felt really big. And I think it was just because that passion was gone ... knowing in my heart that I kept answering the question no.”

---

5. Making Difficult Choices & Letting Go (18:49–22:19)

• Shawn details the painful, courageous decision to retire before the 2012 Olympics, personally calling sponsors and returning endorsement money:
  • Hoda: “You physically called them and told them?”
    Shawn: “I did. ... If you're going to do this, you have to do it. So I did it.” [20:06–20:26]
  • Explains why: “If I’m doing it for the money, for the title, for the fame, then it’s the wrong purpose. ... When I got through all those conversations, I felt like I was floating in the clouds.” [21:37]
• “The most freeing decision I’ve ever had.” [18:33]

---

6. Meeting Her Husband & Embracing Ordinary Life (26:45–34:46)

• The story of meeting Andrew East, via his brother at a cycling event during Shawn’s post-gymnastics media work. Their relationship felt freeing, as Andrew valued her beyond her public achievements.
  • Shawn: “He was the nerdiest, most awkward, most unfinessed human I had ever seen. ... There was something so endearing about it. ... He ... knew nothing of Hollywood ... He didn’t ask a single thing about Olympics or gymnastics. He asked about, like, me as a person.” [28:11]
• He helped her transition from being a perfectionist performer to embracing average, everyday life:
  • “He, he truly saw all these insecurities and one by one would address them and help me kind of heal from them. Not be a perfectionist and elite athlete anymore.” [29:45]
• Shawn moved to Nashville after dating for only two months:
  • “I honestly have nothing to lose. … He’s worth it to me to see if this can last.” [32:27]
  • “He made me feel seen. ... Coming from professional athletics, where you don’t need to be seen, you just need to perform, that was a new concept for me.” [34:04]

---

7. Parenting, Childhood, and Breaking the Cycle (34:46–41:56)

• Shawn and Andrew both had supportive parents who prioritized values and joy over athletic achievement.
  • “Our parents never valued athletics. They valued good humans over everything.” [35:18]
  • Her mom often encouraged her to quit gymnastics, simply wanting her daughter to have a regular childhood.
• As a parent, Shawn aims to instill kindness, let her children set their own path, and avoid placing pressure or expectations—especially given her own fame.
  • “I just don’t want too much pressure to be put on her. I want her to… be terrible and be celebrated for it.” [41:22]
• Preserving joy in childlike wonder is paramount—even as her own kids show different interests (motocross, cycling, possibly gymnastics).

---

8. Joy and Depth: Lessons from Her Book “The Courage to Commit” (47:35–53:53)

• Discussion centers on a key theme from Shawn’s book: real joy is found in depth, not breadth.
  • Shawn: “We argue that joy is found in depth. And you can’t achieve depth without discipline.” [49:05]
• Joy, according to Shawn, differs from fleeting happiness:
  • “I think happiness is a momentary, fleeting feeling. ... I think joy is felt in your soul, and joy comes with pain. ... After 10 years of marriage ... The amount of joy in my soul, in my being that I feel when I look at that man is greater than anything I felt on our wedding day. But it’s because of time and pain and the investment.” [50:27]
• Marriage advice: treat it as the starting line, not the finish. Keep asking questions. Keep “dating” your spouse:
  • “Never stop asking questions, because things always change. ... If we constantly approach our marriage like dating ... it’s with so much curiosity as to where are you right now?” [54:28]

---

9. Advice to Young People & Those Seeking Joy (55:51–57:39)

• Hoda asks what Shawn would tell kids growing up in a performative, social media-dominated world:
  • Shawn: “God has placed hidden treasures in every one of our hearts … It’s the adventure of life to try to find them. ... The world will try to take your treasure from you ... It’s your challenge in life to protect it.” [56:19]

---

Notable Quotes

• “It was exactly what you just said. Like the mountaintop. I had dreamt of that moment ... It was a dream come true. ... But I didn’t know what to do next. I had to start over life.”
  — Shawn Johnson East [09:49]
• “It felt like I lost a part of me.”
  — Shawn Johnson East [12:28]
• “Small pains felt really big. ... That passion was gone. ... I kept answering the question no. But then having so many people around me saying, ‘You’re almost there, just stick with it.’”
  — Shawn Johnson East [15:40–16:33]
• “If I’m doing it for the money, for the title, for the fame, then it’s the wrong purpose.”
  — Shawn Johnson East [21:37]
• “He let me be just a student and just a person and not chase all these titles anymore. ... He rebuilt my confidence from the ground up at just being able to fail beautifully at everything and be completely average and that be celebrated.”
  — Shawn Johnson East [29:45]
• “We argue that joy is found in depth. ... And you can’t achieve depth without discipline.”
  — Shawn Johnson East [49:05]
• “Happiness is a momentary, fleeting feeling. ... Joy is felt in your soul, and joy comes with pain.”
  — Shawn Johnson East [50:27]
• “Never stop asking questions, because things always change. ... If we constantly approach our marriage like dating ... it’s with so much curiosity.”
  — Shawn Johnson East [54:28]
• “God has placed hidden treasures in every one of our hearts ... It’s the adventure of life to try to find them. ... The world will try to take your treasure from you or say it’s not worth value or say it’s not a good enough title, and it’s your challenge in life to protect it.”
  — Shawn Johnson East [56:19]

---

Memorable Moments

• The emotional retelling of reconnecting with Nastya Liukin after years apart, sparked by heartfelt emails and mutual longing [12:28–13:43].
• Shawn’s courage in personally calling her sponsors as a 19-year-old to explain her retirement decision [20:06–21:23].
• Shawn describing the freedom and relief that came from stepping away, despite public expectations [21:37–22:19].
• The story of finding healing and normalcy through her relationship with Andrew, and the leap of faith moving to Nashville [28:11–32:27].
• The distinction of joy vs. happiness, and the call to cultivate depth in relationships and in life, not just breadth [49:05–51:16].

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:11 — Hoda’s personal growth exercises and introduction to Shawn Johnson East
• 09:21 — Shawn describes her Olympic “mountaintop” experience
• 12:15 — The eight-year silence with Nastya and emotional reunion
• 14:09 — Pressure to return to gymnastics & feeling unfulfilled
• 18:49 — Deciding to retire from gymnastics and the relief that followed
• 26:45 — Meeting Andrew East and how he changed her life’s trajectory
• 34:46 — Reflections on parenting philosophy and childhood influences
• 47:35 — Shawn’s insights on joy and depth from her book
• 55:51 — Advice to young people about protecting their unique “treasure” of joy

---

Final Takeaway

Shawn Johnson East’s story is one of rising to the highest peaks early in life, facing the inevitable question of “what now?”, and bravely forging an authentic, joyful path through transitions, pain, and redefining success. Her emphasis on depth, discipline, and self-discovery offers a grounded counter-narrative to the noise and distraction of modern life. Hoda’s warm, curious interviewing brings out the humanity and wisdom in both women, making this an affirming listen for anyone seeking purpose, joy, and meaning amid life’s inevitable changes.

---

Closing Quote

“She was never quite ready, but she was brave. And the universe listens to brave.”
— Rebecca Ray (quoted by Hoda, 59:05)

---

Transcript

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay, so I consider myself a seeker, someone who's trying to improve, get better, learn something, you know, that kind of thing. So I'm a real. I'm always hungry for a podcast, a TED talk, a commencement address. Doesn't matter. I like them all. So I started this company called Joy 101, which is a beautiful wellness based company that's got all kinds of stuff there. It's got an app and it's got retreats and all this stuff. But what I learned when I started this new thing, and maybe you started something new and you get this. It's like you've always done one thing your whole life and suddenly now you're switching into another job. So I'm now a CEO. I've never been a CEO, but I figured, oh yeah, it's easy. You just live how you always live and do the things you always did. That's not how it works. When you have a new job that requires new skills, you have to learn that job too. So I did something that's super cool and I'm so excited about it. So I hired a leadership coach. And I didn't even know what that was. So I had my very first session and I was thinking, what's this guy gonna show me or tell me or whatever? So this is just session one. So for session one, he said to me, tell me about your life in 10 minutes. So I thought, okay, so that's from the beginning to where we are right now. Now think about if someone asked you tell your life in 10 minutes, what would you highlight? What would be the big moments? That's an easy way to distill down what matters to you, what's important, what are your highlights of life. So I did the 10 minutes and then he was giving me some pointers and things. And then he said something interesting. He said, after this hour long, kind of just getting to know you, he said, I'm gonna give you two homework assignments. So I'm gonna give you the same two that he gave me. Cause I think they're interesting. So the first one was he said, whenever you talk, and I didn't know this is how I spoke because I don't hear myself. I'm just talking. He said, you don't say I was mad. You say I was kind of, kind of mad or I was a little teed off or I was kind of. It kind of bugged me. He said, every time you qualify with kinda, a little sort of what you are, is upset or whatever you're feeling. He said, throughout the next week, every time you say one of those qualifying words, just pause for a second. Don't correct it. Just pause and say to yourself, I, oh, there it is, there it is. Like, let's say you're someone who apologizes all the time. Just, you know that. So as you go through the next week, think about it. Every time you say, huh? I just said I'm sorry for bumping into a table. Or you know how we do. We're like. So this made me conscious of, ah, I don't need to clarify. Be definitive. Like that's important. The other thing he said to do and try this too, because this is interesting. No matter what you do in life, he said, make two lists, okay? Your strengths and weaknesses. 25 strengths and 25 weaknesses. Okay? So I was like, oh, cool. Be simple. Strengths, weaknesses. Wait till you get to number 12 or 15 and you're like, hamana, hummina, hamana. What's the next thing? It's very helpful in revealing who you are. Now. I just, I asked Annarel, who's my executive assistant, to do this and she totally crushed it in five minutes. Because some people are really good at it, but I think most people are like, I'm not sure. Is that so? List them. And it doesn't, I don't mean in life, strengths and weaknesses. It just gives you like 35,000 foot kind of look at your life and they're cool and interesting exercises to deal with so you know who you are and what you're about. Okay, so the person I'm about to interview knows all about this stuff. She's somebody who you might remember from the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. She won four medals, one gold. She is a powerhouse. Okay? We all remember her. She was tiny, adorable and crushing it. And her name's Shawn Johnson. She's an incredible athlete and she hit this pinnacle at age 16. So I was always wondering, and I'm always so fascinated with people like this, what happens when you get the goal at that age? What happens to the rest of your. What happens from that point on? Well, she's now Shawn Johnson East. She's married, she's got children, and she's got this incredible life. But she learned so much about joy and achievement and discipline and all of these things all rolled into one. So this conversation here on Joy 101 with Shawn Johnson east is going to be fascinating because she's been to the top, she's had terrible potholes and she's come right back and she knows the definition of joy. So I Hope you Enjoy this conversation. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb is presented by CVS.

[CVS Advertiser]

CVS is there for moments big and small, making it easy to get what you need and leave feeling confident that you've got it all covered. It's where everyday errands turn into something more. You go in for the essentials, but you end up finding those small, useful things that add a little something extra to your day. With CVS brands, there's something for every moment. From trusted care and better for you essentials to trend forward finds and little touches of joy. Visit your local CVS pharmacy.

[Hoda Kotb]

Presented by CVS what's up y'?

[Starbucks Advertiser]

All? Summer's got a different tempo. Everything's a little looser, brighter. One plant turns into another. You hear something, you stay a little longer. Next thing you know, you're somewhere you didn't plan to be. It's those in between moments. That's where the ideas hit. Conversations stretch out. Little memories sneak up on you. Sometimes it's just about what's in your hand. That color, that chill. The new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks. Guava and passion fruit flavors with mango Pineapple flavored pearls. Yeah, that feels like summer before you even taste it. Funny how one small stop becomes the best, best part of the day. Start your summer rhythm with Starbucks. Try the new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks.

[CarMax Advertiser]

Do you want to find a stress free way to buy your next car? Start at CarMax and shop your way. If you want to browse with confidence, get pre qualified online with no impact on your credit score and shop cars within your budget. From luxury cars to family rides, CarMax has options for almost every price range, including more than 25,000 cars priced under $25,000. So hey, want to get started? Just head to CarMax.com for details and get pre qualified today. Want to drive CarMax?

[Redfin Advertiser]

There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to make up that difference and close the gap between finding and owning the home for you. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, so when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it comes to making an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more focus on the one you'll call home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream.

[Pets Best Advertiser]

Your pet is your bestie, your therapist, your perfect match. It's easy to love them. It's easy to protect them too, with pet insurance coverage from Pets Best because it's all fun and games until they chew on something they shouldn't and you get a vet bill to match. With perfect timing, Pets Best helps protect your furry friend and your budget from this imperfect world. Get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills from less than a dollar a day. Pets Best has plans to cover accidents, injuries and more, from puppies and kittens to seniors. Find your perfect match plan and get a [e-mail] Pet Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.

[Hoda Kotb]

Hey, how are you?

[Pets Best Advertiser]

Great.

[Shawn Johnson East]

How are you?

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my God, you're so bright and shiny. I'm so happy. How are you?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I'm wonderful. It's been. I think the last time I saw you was in Paris, which is crazy.

[CVS Advertiser]

Moly. The Olympics.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay, first of all, yay for Sean. Yay for Andrew. I'm so happy for you. Speaking of the Olympics, let's just begin where we begin, okay?

[Shawn Johnson East]

Okay.

[Hoda Kotb]

I remember Beijing because I was there in the audience with a big bowl of popcorn and I remember Shawn Johnson. I remember four medals. I remember the gold on the beam. I remembered thinking to myself, my God, the mountaintop is right here. And this 16 year old kid gets to feel what it feels like. So I know what it felt like on the outside looking in. What did it feel like on the inside?

[Shawn Johnson East]

It like exactly what you just said. Like the mountaintop. I had dreamt of that moment I had been working for that moment

[Nissan Rogue Advertiser]

was

[Shawn Johnson East]

a dream come true. It's also such a roller coaster of emotions because to me, that was such a finish line. And I was only 16. I was a junior in high school. And to cross a finish line that big at such young age was such an accomplishment. But I didn't know what to do next. I had to start over life. So I remember standing on the podium thinking, like, what do I do now?

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Right?

[Hoda Kotb]

I did this. I did this amazing thing and this is what it feels like. But again, we have to remind ourselves and you know that being a kid, you were a teenager. Like any person who's listening remembers 16. They remember what it was like to be that age. And when you hit the goal, did it feel like. I mean, you said like, oh, no, now what next? You seem like a what next person, but for that moment to have reached it, because I remember there was a whole thing with you and Nastya Lukin and who's gonna get.

[CVS Advertiser]

Who's gonna get it?

[Hoda Kotb]

It's gonna be this one or that one. You know, everyone loves to pit people against one another, especially at the Olympics. How did you recover from having that kind of a push pull with a dear friend who you loved and also were kind of pitted against.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Well, I was with her two days ago. We spent two days together. She is my best friend and she is truly my family and my sister. And that's how we started as well. So at the Olympics, we actually got to choose who we were going to room with. And Nastya and I were inseparable. We are very similar in how we operate. We're overthinkers, perfectionists. We were very, very disciplined and we were sisters. And I remember we navigated it so well all the way up until the Olympics. And I remember at the Olympics we were still navigating it well, but then that's kind of when all the outside voices started coming in. You had agents and you had sponsors and you had newspapers back in the day. Not even social media, thank God, saying it was always her or I. And I remember being 16, she was 18. We didn't know how to navigate that after the Olympics, and we actually didn't see each other or really speak. And it's not cause we didn't want to speak, but we didn't really interact for eight years.

[CVS Advertiser]

Eight years after the Olympics.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Eight years.

[Hoda Kotb]

Did it feel like. I mean, anyone who's had a falling out with a friend and probably more than half people listening have. What did it feel like for you to lose someone who understood you?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I could cry about it on the spot. It felt like I lost a part of me. She is. We went through such bonding and such. I mean, trauma in a happy sense at such a young age. We went through all of that. And she's the only one who really understands me on that level. And I'm the only one who understands her on that level. And I just remember in such a creepy way, we used to follow each other. We knew exactly where each other were. I knew every event she was at. I knew what. What she was wearing. I was checking in on her, but just from a distance. And I remember eight years later, we were both in relationships at the time, and I think our boyfriends got Tired of hearing us talk about each other. And both of our boyfriends at the time said, like, enough of this. You need to reach out. And I wrote this long letter in an email. I didn't even know if it was the same email that she had. And I sent it to her, and I remember getting a response in, like, 60 seconds.

[Hoda Kotb]

What did she say?

[Shawn Johnson East]

And it was just like, I remember writing to her saying, I love you. I have always loved you. I will always be here for you. If you don't respond, it's okay. Like, I know the world has changed, but just know I'm here if you ever want. And she came back, and she was the same way. She's like, I've missed you.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love you.

[Shawn Johnson East]

And we've been inseparable again ever since.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow, that's beautiful. That's a beautiful way to come. To come back. Full circle. So, Beijing, you're there. You're at the top of the mountain. And, I mean, you ended up thinking, what's next? And the next Olympics was obviously what was next, I mean, in addition to other competitions. So did you immediately say, I gotta do this again? And if the answer is yes, then why? You already did it. Like, you felt the feelings.

[Shawn Johnson East]

I crossed the finish line in 2008, thinking, knowing I was done. I didn't really have any aspirations to continue in gymnastics at that point in time. I felt tired already, and I was ready to go take on the next thing for me, My dream after that was to be an orthopedic surgeon. Oh, wow. So I wanted to go to med school, but I got kind of put on this roller coaster of the aftermath of the Olympics, where things were just moving so fast. I was on Dancing with the Stars. I was doing public speaking. I was doing so much, and it seemed like the roller coaster wasn't slowing down. And so year after year, I kept, like, deferring college and finding myself faced with interviews where people are like, well, are you gonna go back? Are you gonna go back? Are you gonna do it again? You should do it again. You're really good at it. And I think that just kind of convinced me that that must be what people want to see. And because I felt so lost in a sense of, like, not knowing what to do next, I went back.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Shawn Johnson East]

And I went all the way back into international or world competition. I made it to the Pan American Games. I competed. And I remember thinking, at Pan American Games, this is cool, but I don't like it anymore.

[CVS Advertiser]

Wow.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

That is.

[Hoda Kotb]

By the way, that's a profound statement because you've been doing it since you're three. And then to have a moment where something that was part of you suddenly didn't feel good anymore. What was the feeling? Was it fatigue or was it just what?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I just remember the way I tried to describe it to even my coach is back in 2008, I could overcome anything. I could overcome any fear or even injury or roadblock or challenge because I was so driven. Because the end goal meant more than anything. So I could get through rehab, I could get through the long trainings, the early mornings, and then fast forward to around the time that I retired. I remember even the smallest things feeling like the hardest hurdles to get through. Small pains felt really big. And I think it was just because that passion was gone. And I remember knowing, just kind of facing this question over and over of, am I meant to still be in this? And knowing in my heart that I kept answering the question no. But then having so many people around me saying, you're almost there, just stick with it.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's hard. It's hard when the world wants you to do something and you get swept up in the whole thing. So during that time when you were doing Dancing with the Stars, you had Cheerios. You were giving speeches, you were. I mean, everywhere I looked, there was Shawn Johnson. Like, it was really cool. But what was that's outside adoration. That's cool. Winning Dancing with the Stars, you did it twice, I think. But, like, you had all this love. But what was bringing you joy? Like, did that feel fulfilling to you during that time?

[Shawn Johnson East]

That stuff did feel fulfilling and I enjoyed it. I remember thinking, I naturally am such a shy, introverted person, so being on a stage is very hard. But I remember thinking, like, I kept being put on stages and I didn't know why, because it was not natural to me. But thinking that there had to be a purpose behind it, so trying to at least understand that I should do good with it. I don't know how to say that. So I felt the pressure to take it seriously. So I was feeling fulfilled. It just felt interesting because I'm a very type A person. Two plus two has to equal four. And for me, it was like, this was not what I planned. So I was trying to make sense with, where do I go from here? And when I went back into gymnastics, I think it was then that I started to feel very unfulfilled, which was confusing because it was the one thing that I loved for so long. And I remember being swept up into that pressure of everyone saying, just Stick with it. You're so close to 2012 and thinking, I know that makes sense to the world, but I can't under. I can't explain how. This is just not bringing me any joy. And for some reason I think that needs to be important. And when. The day that I chose to retire for the 2012. Go ahead. I remember people thinking I was absolutely crazy, but it was the most freeing decision I've ever had.

[Hoda Kotb]

I want to dig into that because that's so interesting to me, the moment that you decided, because there's one thing to know inside, which it seems like you knew for a while, but there's another thing to say it out loud. So tell me about how that came to be, what you said and what it felt like.

[Shawn Johnson East]

It had been building for a while. And again, coming from the athletic side, I think I was trying to weigh, is this just a hard phase or has something switched inside of me? And when I kind of came to realize that I was just, I was done with the sport and I needed to move on, I was ready to kind of get rid of gymnastics and start over with something new. I didn't know what it was, but I felt very excited about starting over rather than continuing. It was absolutely terrifying. I remember I had many sponsors backing me for 2012. I had to call them by cell phone numbers as a 19 year old kid and say, I just don't love it anymore. And the corporate world doesn't quite understand that as well as mom and dad do. So I had to face a lot of disappointment and anger and I had to find it, find conviction in myself enough to say, I know you're upset and I'm so sorry.

[Hoda Kotb]

Can I just pause for a second? The fact that you yourself called, I bet you any other 19 year old would have said to somebody, will you call whoever and tell them I can't do it. You physically called them and told them?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I did. I was in an interesting position where my parents were my biggest supporters. And so it was me and my parents, but everybody else thought I was crazy. So they said, if you're going to do this, you have to do it. So I did it.

[Hoda Kotb]

What was the hardest call? What was the toughest one for you

[Shawn Johnson East]

there? I.

[Hoda Kotb]

You don't have to say who they were, but just what the conversation.

[Shawn Johnson East]

I had a sponsor that was very angry and I'm such a people pleaser. So it was heartbreaking to me because I really valued their respect and I, I want to make people happy and I want to, you know, perform for Them and to hear the anger, which I now understand as an adult, came with a lot of pressure from their side. But that was really hard. I didn't like feeling like I was letting people down. And I didn't know how to explain or articulate the conviction I have, knowing this was not my time. Someone else is meant to have this spot. I'm not meant to be in 2012. It was really hard and people had invested a lot of time and money, which I gave it all back.

[Hoda Kotb]

You did?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I did.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Another.

[CarMax Advertiser]

Just another.

[Hoda Kotb]

Another. Wow. Just to pause for a second because again, I think a lot of 19 year olds would have said, hey, I have the cash, thank you very much. But no, of course she did.

[Shawn Johnson East]

I think I was. I was really lucky to have a coach who taught me from a very young age that it was never about the title or the medal. It was about the effort and the joy. And he preserved that my whole career. And I just remember in those hard conversations having to remind myself of this. Like, I know this is the right choice, and if I'm doing it for the money, for the title, for the fame, then it's the wrong. It's the wrong purpose. And so when I got through all those conversations, I felt like I was floating in the clouds. It was very hard, but I felt such a weight lift off, lifted off my shoulders. And it was because I went to 2012 to work and not compete that I actually met my husband. So it was all meant to be.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay, first of all, that's beautiful. And I also, I think the relief, the warm hand on your heart, the, oh, my gosh, I just did it. And I feel free. I think after every difficult conversation, probably think of any difficult. That may have been the most that you've ever had, but over the course of your life, it's like, I think anyone who's even like, I've got to tell my. I got to tell my husband. I got to tell my boss. I have to. The minute you say it, even if it's the hardest conversation, your shoulders drop like 2 or 3 inches and you feel. So to get on the other side of that is huge.

[CVS Advertiser]

You know, those quick CVS runs we all make, they're starting to feel like more than just a stop along the way. You know, it's really about showing up for life's little moments and big ones, too, and helping you feel your best along the way and making every visit feel easy, a little more rewarding, and something you can feel good about inside and out. It kind of feels like CVS is becoming that place where you can take care of everything in one trip. Whether it's something you need for your health, something that makes life easier, or even something that just lifts your mood. There's a mix of everyday essentials and those little feel good discoveries. So it's not just functional, it actually feels more personal and joyful. A big part of that experience comes from what you find across CVS store brands. You've got everything from everyday essentials that help you feel your best. Do those things you didn't even know you needed, and when you discover them, it creates those small feel good moments throughout the store in those seasonal finds, those little treats or something thoughtful you grab for yourself or somebody else. It can turn a quick CVS run into something more. Those little moments of joy can lift your day, help you feel better, and even help you feel more connected, whether they're big or small. Visit your local CVS pharmacy.

[Hoda Kotb]

Presented by CVS Protect your pet with

[Pets Best Advertiser]

insurance from Pets Best plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com Policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Petsburg Best Insurance Services LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets Age 0 to 10 why is

[Shawn Johnson East]

it always chaos when we link up?

[Nissan Rogue Advertiser]

Because nobody plans anything, bro. Good thing the Rogue's ready like that for real.

Rain, dirt, whatever available. All wheel drive, five modes. We still outside.

[Shawn Johnson East]

And they got some kick too.

[Nissan Rogue Advertiser]

That turbo torque is crazy. The most in its class. It moves, moves.

Rogue doesn't mess around and peep the space merch on merch. Gear mics. All of it fits.

Load up we out 2026 Nissan Rogue built for all of it Auto Pacific

segmentation 2026 Rogue vs latest in market competitors in the X SUV mainstream midsize class excluding electrical vehicles based on manufactured websites.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

You're locked into a lot of things. You can't change weather, traffic. Hey, stay in your lane. Your wireless carrier's latest price hike. But you can unlock a better way. Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile and save up to $600 a year. Switch to the $25 a month unlimited wireless plan. No contracts, no price hikes and you keep your phone. Stop being locked into their games. Unlock the [e-mail] unlock based on average annual single line of payment of AT&T Verizon and T Mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile unlimited wireless plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com Ryan

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month, of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] okay, so you go

[Hoda Kotb]

for the Today show. Yay, Yay to the Olympics to work it. And I remember that too. So you're going along and you're doing, I think, commentating social media, a whole bunch of stuff, right? Okay, I remember that. And then. So how did this mystery meeting come to be?

[Shawn Johnson East]

Yeah, one of the events that I was asked to go cover was a cycling event. And I was at this cycling event and I didn't know what I was watching. And they set me up with a USA Cycling athlete and his name was Guy east. And he wasn't competing, but he was there with his teammates. And I remember he was explaining everything to me and how cycling world worked and what I was watching. It's very confusing sport and I'm doing the social media thing. And I remember at the end of the event he said, if you take anything away from our conversation and said, I think you should meet my younger brother. And I was like, what? Like this took a weird turn. Fast forward, I think probably five months. That younger brother, who's now my husband, flew out to LA while I was on Dancing with the Stars and we went on a blind date. And I thought he was so adorable, but I didn't know how it would work. And he lived in Nashville. He was going to Vanderbilt. Fast forward a little bit longer. We went on a second date in Nashville. And I remember telling my mom, I was like, I think, I think this is the guy I'm gonna marry.

[Hoda Kotb]

Really? So it must have been a little intimidating for the brother Andrew to fly out to Dancing with the Stars to go on a blind date with you. What was, was he awkward? Was it, was he, was he just, was he a cool customer? Like, what was he on the first Date?

[Nissan Rogue Advertiser]

No.

[Shawn Johnson East]

He was the nerdiest, most awkward, most unfinessed human I had ever seen. And I think there was honestly something so endearing about it. I feel like coming from the Olympic world and coming from Dancing with the Stars in la, I had seen such facades that were perfect for so long. And he was just so unapologetically himself and such a gentleman and knew nothing of Hollywood. He hadn't been on a plane before without his family. And I was like, I started traveling when I was 12. What do you mean? And it was just, it was so pure. And he could have just normal human conversations. He didn't ask a single thing about Olympics or gymnastics. He asked about, like, me as a person. And I hadn't had that in a long time.

[Hoda Kotb]

Talk about what you. I mean, talk about what you needed. I mean, again, like, I believe just like you, like things are meant to be. The world, I mean, you know, it worked out the way it was obviously supposed to, but you were in an interesting time because you had already stepped away from gymnastics and you're still kind of looking for your groove thing like you want something. So was he being an outsider like that? I would imagine.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

I don't know.

[Hoda Kotb]

But was he sort of helpful? Cause he saw all of you. He didn't see you as Shaun the gymnast or Shawn the dancer or whatever.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Absolutely. I think he healed me, honestly. He. He let me be just me and not do anything. And I remember after. So we met in LA on Dancing with the Stars. There was a nine month period before our second date. And after our second date, I think it took two months into dating before I moved to Nashville and I ended up transferring to Vanderbilt with him. And I just did. I did nothing. He. He let me be just a student and just a person and not chase all these titles anymore. And he rebuilt my confidence from the ground up at just being able to fail beautifully at everything and be completely average and that be celebrated. And he, he truly saw all these insecurities and one by one would address them and help me kind of heal from them. Not be a perfectionist and elite athlete

[Hoda Kotb]

anymore, by the way, that's a huge step because there are probably a ton of people listening who are perfectionists in one part of their life. To go from I need to do it exactly right to average is cool. I like being a student who gets, I don't know what you got. I got B's and C's in college. Who cares? It doesn't really matter at the end. But to be someone. How did that Sit with you. Someone who's used to being disciplined. Gotta get it, you know?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I mean, it was very messy. Yeah, I. I had a lot of good days and bad days, but I remember he would always talk to me and say, there's this person me that I see when we're at home and when we're on a date. And then all of a sudden, you get in from. In front of a camera, and it's like you are a completely different person. And he said, if only the world got to see who you actually were. And that would just unlock all these things of. I was taught to perform. I was taught to be perfect because it was. I was trying to gain a subjective judge's opinion of me and try to make that the best. And. And it was uncomfortable, and it was scary, and it. There are a lot of transitions and the workspace, but it was slow and just beautiful. And he just held my hand through it.

[Hoda Kotb]

You know what? I think you're. I mean, I always thought you were brave, but one of the bravest things you just said is, after two months, you moved to Nashville. I mean, you just did it. Like, that's a leap of faith. That's scary. Some people would need some more assurances that this was gonna be something. I don't want to up. Uproot my life and go there. Tell me about that process.

[Shawn Johnson East]

I always explained it as, like, I started. I had to grow up at a very young age. So at 12, I remember flying to Belgium for the first time by myself to compete for the United States, and. Which is crazy. Now that I'm a mom, I'm, like, 12. That's too young. But I had lived a lot of life, and I was ready to find someone to share life with. And I remember when I met him, and we had this, like, spark. I remember thinking, if I continue to travel the world and if I continue to live on the opposite side of the world from him or the country, I'm not giving it the best chance to see if it can become anything. And I remember thinking, I honestly have nothing to lose. Like, if I move to Nashville and we go on two more dates and say, this is not it. Okay. I'll move somewhere else. Like, it's fine. And I just remember thinking, he's worth it to me to see if this can last. And I think I scared the crap out of him.

[Hoda Kotb]

You were like, hi, I'm.

[Shawn Johnson East]

I'm moving here. I'm going to your college. I'm moving down the street from you. I am really, like, putting Myself in your world. But if it weren't for that, I don't think it would have worked. I paused my life because that meant so much to me. And when I. When we secured that, and it took a couple of years, you know, to find really strong foundation, but it meant enough to me to take the leap of faith, and it worked out because of it.

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, no kidding. I love that you said he changed so much of you and rebuilt your confidence. I mean, that is epic. Why is he so wise? He was just a kid. Like, how was he that wise?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I think. I mean, I think he's the greatest. So I think he's just amazing. And I don't even know if it came out as wisdom. I just think it was. It was just a kindness to be, you know, invested into the depth of someone. We always. My husband, I talk a lot about. I think the world really preaches and tries to encourage people to live and we say an inch deep and a mile wide anymore that people aren't actually getting to know or people to their true depth or to feel seen. And he made me feel seen. And especially coming from professional athletics, where you don't need to be seen, you just need to perform, that was a new concept for me.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow, beautiful. So you guys have beautiful children. You have a whole beautiful family and raising kids. And I was thinking about how you were raised and how you would choose to raise and often as moms, I mean, I take some stuff from my mom that she. That she, you know, how she raised me, and then some of the stuff I just left on the table. But what from your childhood did you take on and say, you know what? I want my kids to have these things. And what did you say? You know what? This isn't going to work for them.

[Shawn Johnson East]

I would say both my husband and I were raised similarly in the athletic world from our parents, and we're definitely using that where. Our parents never valued athletics. They valued good humans over everything. And my mom, I have very vivid memories of. She would beg me to skip gymnastics. Just quit it. Just don't do it anymore. It takes up too much time. I miss my daughter. I want to go shopping with you. I want to just play hooky one day. You know, it was. It was all these things of. It just is taking too much of you. And my parents and Andrew's parents just taught us that athletics were our choice. As long as we were good humans and we had good values and kindness and respect to people, that's all that mattered. And they loved us for who we were it. We didn't have to earn that. So I always knew that that was my choice, and I. I really want to make sure my children know that same thing. I don't care about titles. I don't care about placements. I don't care about. I just care that you try hard and you're a good human. And then if you want to go do whatever sport you want to do, I love that I'll be your biggest cheerleader. If there's anything that I would change, I would just say my. I'm an only child, and I'm very type A. I was very driven. I was very much just a girl that could sit still and paint and color and draw. I have two very, very wild boys. Very wild boys. And I think the hands off. Let me be the driver of everything that my parents embraced as a kid. I think we need a little bit more reining in with my boys, so have to be a little more stern with them than my parents probably were with me.

[Hoda Kotb]

Can I. I'm just gonna go back one more second to your child, because I didn't know this about your mom, that she was like, don't do it. Quit. You're like, I'm not quitting. I'm doing it. So what was the motivation for a little kid? Cause I know kids like things until it's hard, usually, and then they stop loving it. So what was pushing you all. All that time when you were little?

[Shawn Johnson East]

Myself, which is crazy. And I don't. I had just this drive. My parents opened me up to every opportunity in life. They did such a beautiful job of that especially. I mean, to be very honest, they didn't have the resources to do that. They. They extended themselves to make the universe just my playground. And so I tried so many things and very quickly would quit. Things like, don't like it. One practice in, I'm done. I don't want to be there. But there was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me, and I think it has taught me or it's given me a belief, maybe it's a delusional belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Because there was no roadblock, no challenge too hard that I couldn't work through. I was so driven by it. And my coach was the same way. He's like, if you don't want to be here, you don't need to be here. I just want us to have fun.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my God, this is good. So wait, when you talked About. So you're raising kids and when you were little, your time was all spent doing what you were doing. What about childhood? Do you kind of say, God, I kind of wish I was. I kind of wish I got to run wild a little bit? Or is that not on your regret list?

[Shawn Johnson East]

So, I mean, all of this sounds too good to be true as I answer this. It's going to be crazy, but I don't feel like I missed anything in my childhood. I was very lucky. My coaches moved from China to the United States. They came from gymnastics in China, where everything was taken from them as a child. They had to be a professional from a very young age. And they didn't get to have fun or be kids. And so their dream in moving to the United States was to open a gym and in their words would say, raise children who get to be children, but also get to be good gymnasts. And so we did a very, very condensed training schedule. We had to go to full day of school. I got to attend every football game, every dance. My coaches would let us play. They preserved the joy and the childlike childhood for us. So all of my memories there, I remember running around playing capture the flag in my neighborhood. I had enough time to have friendships outside of the gym. I went to Dairy Queen and had stacks of pancakes after practice all the time. I truly had a childhood, and I think that's because of my coaches.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's really cool. So how do you raise your kids? Who's the disciplinarian? Who's the one who lets it fly?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I am 100% the disciplinarian. My husband lets everything fly. He's another child, which is so much fun, but it's crazy. And how do we raise them? We say, I don't know if this is gonna sound right, but we call it free range. We have very wild children who are very curious and very able and just love to run wild. And I have a four year old that races motocross.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my gosh.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Not the sport I would have chosen, but that is truly one of his treasures. It's like the kid came out riding a bike and a motorcycle. My dad rode professionally his whole life. And then my husband comes from a whole family of Olympic cyclists, so it makes sense. It's in there. But we just, we raised them to have fun, to be good humans.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Wow.

[Shawn Johnson East]

But to have fun.

[Hoda Kotb]

Any gymnasts in the group?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I don't know. I would have said no about a month ago, but out of nowhere, my 6 year old has now asked to go back to the gym, so. And she's loving it, which is scaring me to death.

[Hoda Kotb]

Why is that scaring you?

[Shawn Johnson East]

This is going to get deep quickly. But I. I think the world naturally will put an unfair expectation on her. I think because mom was good, people will expect her to be good. And I don't think any child should be expected to be good at something. I think they should be able to fail and be terrible and be celebrated for it. So I just don't want too much pressure to be put on her. I want her to.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you'll. If she wants to go that way, you'll say, all right, do it. But you're just. Otherwise, you're just kind of hands off to see what she's going to do.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Biggest cheerleader. I'm the mom in the stands watching. Never anything more.

[Hoda Kotb]

Do people freak out?

[Shawn Johnson East]

In my mind, it's going crazy. My mind's like, oh, my God.

[Hoda Kotb]

You're like, please, God, blow your toes. I know.

[CVS Advertiser]

Just a little tip here, sweetie.

[Hoda Kotb]

You'll be ready.

[CVS Advertiser]

Try that.

[Shawn Johnson East]

I remember she at one point asked my husband to teach her to do something in gymnastics. And both of us started laughing. I was like, this is comical. How much do you want him to do?

[Hoda Kotb]

Do they get you? Do they get your whole deal and your husband's deal? Do they understand? Do they ever look at videos of you, of you at Beijing and go, oh, that was Mom.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Yeah, not really. I think we're just. I think my daughter, being 6, is just now getting glimpses and understanding of, like, maybe the magnitude. But we also try not to flaunt anything because it's. We don't want them living in any type of shadow. It's their world now. It's not ours.

[CVS Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

So if people come up to you and say, are you Shawn Johnson? Do they go, what's happening with mom over there?

[Shawn Johnson East]

Yeah, we get a lot of questions of, why don't they want a picture of me like themselves? And I'm like, well, I don't know how to explain that. I'm like, mommy, someone watched Mommy do gymnastics and. But, yeah, I don't know how to explain it.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's so cute, by the way. That's the cutest thing ever. Someone watched Mommy do gymnastics in a beautiful. I'm sorry. Beautiful statement. Well said. Which just explains your entire parenting right there. That's just how you go through. That is awesome.

[CVS Advertiser]

You know those quick CVS runs we all make? They're starting to feel like more than just a stop along the way, you know, it's really about showing up for life's little moments and big ones too, and helping you feel your best along the way and making every visit feel easy, a little more rewarding, and something you can feel good about inside and out. It kind of feels like CVS is becoming that place where you can take care of everything in one trip. Whether it's something you need for your health, something that makes life easier, or even something that just lifts your mood. There's a mix of everyday essentials and those little feel good discoveries. So it's not just functional, it actually feels more personal and joyful. A big part of that experience comes from what you find across CVS store brands. You've got everything from everyday essentials that help you feel your best to those things you didn't even know you needed. And when you discover them, it creates those small feel good moments throughout the store. In those seasonal finds, those little treats or something thoughtful you grab for yourself or somebody else, it can can turn a quick CVS run into something more. Those little moments of joy can lift your day, help you feel better, and even help you feel more connected, whether they're big or small. Visit your local CVS pharmacy Presented by

[Pets Best Advertiser]

CVS the following ad is sponsored by Pets Best Insurance Services. You knew right away he's perfect.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

The one for you.

[Pets Best Advertiser]

Those puppy dog eyes, that cute little button nose. You don't even mind the drool. When you find your perfect match in a dog or cat, the love is unconditional. Your budget, on the other hand, has realistic limits. Help protect your heart and your wallet with pet insurance from Pets Best. With plans starting from less than a dollar a day, you can get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills. Pets Best makes it easy to pick a plan that works for you and your bank account. Find the perfect match for your Perfect [e-mail] Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC or underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. backslash policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets Age 0 to 10 why is

[Shawn Johnson East]

it always chaos when we link up?

[Nissan Rogue Advertiser]

Because nobody plans anything, bro. Good thing the rogue's ready like that for real.

Rain, dirt, whatever available all wheel drive, five modes. We still outside and they got some kick too.

That turbo torque is crazy the most in its class it moves moves Rogue

doesn't mess around and peep the space merch on merch gear mics all of

it fits load up we out 2026 Nissan Rogue built for all of it

Auto Pacific segmentation 2026 Rogue vs latest in market competitors in the X SUV mainstream midsize class excluding electrical vehicles based on manufacturer websites, you're locked into a

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

lot of things you can't change. Weather, traffic. Hey, stay in your lane. Your wireless carrier's latest price hike. But you can unlock a better way. Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile and save up to $600 a year. Switch to the $25 a month unlimited wireless plan. No contracts, no price hikes and you keep your phone stop being locked into their games. Unlock the [e-mail] unlock based on average annual single line of payment of AT&T Verizon and T Mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile unlimited wireless plan as of January 2026. For full offer details visit boostmobile.com Ryan

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Reynolds here from Mint Mobile I don't know if you knew this but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month PR plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra seefull [e-mail] can

[Hoda Kotb]

we talk about first of all your, your awesome book. I. I opened it to the back cover which I'm sorry if that's not framed in your house somewhere. I'm gonna be super mad. What a great picture of the two of you. It's called the Courage to Commit. And of course I flipped immediately to this chapter on joy, chapter two, which I was into and I was so struck by one of and it says that you were asked somebody, an audience member asked you a question. The question was you two live such structured lives. How do you make space for joy? And you spend that chapter talking about how confused we are about what joy actually is. Cause people don't think you can be disciplined and have joy. So explain that thought process.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Yes, so we the whole book is about like the depth of commitment. What happens when you actually start saying no to things and like filtering your life to things that actually matter. I think we're in the anxious generation where there is so much noise and so many voices and so many options that it can be crippling to people. I think people are being overwhelmed with decision fatigue. And instead of choosing one thing or a couple of things, they're just not choosing anything at all. They're swiping, you know, swipe right culture. And this, the chapter of joy. We argue that joy is found in depth.

[Hoda Kotb]

In depth.

[Shawn Johnson East]

And you can't achieve depth without discipline. And I in. And I mean that in the sense of. Take parenting. It's not always joyful. It's very difficult. There are a lot of hard nights and hard days and hard phases. But the amount of joy you feel, looking at this, this human that you've raised and gone through such hardship with and so many sleepless nights, that is a joy and a depth that you can't reach if you are just a parent for a day or a babysitter for a day, let's say that. And in our culture right now, I think the world is trying to preach that if you keep hopping from one honeymoon phase to another and just getting the dopamine hit of an instant gratification, that I think that is just instant happiness. That's not joy. So if you start structuring your life to really, like, invest time into something, I think you're going to be surprised at the immense. Not happiness, but joy you feel.

[Hoda Kotb]

Tell me the difference. I love the happiness and joy thing. And I know you talk about, like, butterflies when you meet him, and yay. And then after three years, you know, everyone gives the side eye, so it is. What's the difference there for you?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I think happiness is a momentary, fleeting feeling emotion. I think joy is felt in your soul and joy comes with pain. And I say that in the sense of, like, even in our. Our marriage, at our. On our wedding day, I had happiness because I was like, oh, this is so exciting. I'm so giddy. I love this guy. But after 10 years of marriage, we've gone through heartbreak and hard arguments and times where we've disappointed each other. But the amount of joy in my soul, in my being that I feel when I look at that man is greater than anything I felt on our wedding day. But it's because of time and pain and the investment of it that you. That compounds over time.

[Hoda Kotb]

First of all, that's a beautiful statement, and I think some people might like sometimes when there are arguments and bad moments in relationships where if you're in One, you're gonna have those. That's life. Sometimes that's all people start seeing through that lens. And then the next thing comes and you go, well, there it goes again. And then all of the sudden, before you know it, you guys are not you guys, but whoever's listening. It's like parallel paths that kind of start peeling off in opposite directions. How did you make sure or ensure that your marriage stayed the course in the middle, even though you had all these potholes, like all marriages do?

[Shawn Johnson East]

Mm. It's actually something we took a lot of time to write about, and it's how we try to approach life. It's a gift I think we were given in athletics, which is back in gymnastics. If I was faced with a challenge, an injury, something I couldn't overcome, the yips, whatever it was, I would take that. I would look at that challenge and say, let's go find every tool we can find to help me overcome it. That's coaches, sports psychiatrists, dietitians. Do I need to take time off? Do I need to? And I would approach that challenge from every angle and say, how can I fix it? I think when it comes to relationships and marriage and parenting and things that are just happening in our daily life, we're operating as a culture in a way that says, if it's hard, it must not be right. Instead of going back to athletics and saying, oh, here's a challenge. How can I fix it? And so my husband and I, I think, because we're both athletes, have a very shared perspective on this, of if we hit a road bump, which we do all the time, it's like, what can we do to fix it? Who do we need to go find in the counseling world? What mentor should we bring in? What should we change in our routine? What should we change about ourselves? But it's always this active idea of how can we better it? And so in each chapter, we write about all the different factors and angles to attack a problem, whether it's your environment or your belief or your faith or your mentorships. How can you attack a problem? And I think it's just going against the cultural norm, but it works for us. Why we have such a fruitful marriage now.

[Hoda Kotb]

How do you. You know, you've changed since, obviously, Beijing. You've probably evolved a hundred times over. Your husband's probably evolved 100 times over. I'm sure you guys have to reintroduce yourselves. Hi, I'm Sean. I don't like Applebee's anymore. I used to love it. Or Whatever it is, you know, however you know. But you always like that, but you always were. How do you keep evolving? Because you can have a relationship where you're understanding but you're different.

[CVS Advertiser]

He's different.

[Hoda Kotb]

How do you keep, you know, keep reintroducing yourself, if that's the right word.

[Shawn Johnson East]

We learned a little trick from. He's a counselor. His name's John Deloney, and he's a friend of ours. But he taught us this trick years ago of. In a very basic way, he said, never stop dating your spouse. And he means it in the sense of never stop asking questions, because things always change. And he asks his spouse, and his spouse asks him all the time for an updated resume, basically. Like, what's your current favorite color? Because that can change.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Shawn Johnson East]

What's your favorite food right now? Who's your best friend? And I think if we constantly approach our marriage like, dating, like we did when we were dating, it's with so much curiosity as to where are you right now? And I've seen as my husband, we go through phases of life where he's stressed or entranced with something new or, like, it's constantly different. And I'm constantly learning about him. And I think a lot of times people will get it wrong when they think that the marriage, like getting married, is a finish line. And now you just get to coast when I think it's actually a starting line and it's a lot of work.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, beautiful. So, you know, there are a lot of little kids who I'm sure, come up to you, which is. I'm sure I can just imagine when you walk down, like, oh, Shawn, tell

[CVS Advertiser]

me,

[Hoda Kotb]

what's something that you would want? These little kids, the young girls who are coming up now, many of whom are wrapped up in social media, wrapped up in. What do they think they want? You know, it is performative often how they're living now, whether they're, you know, an athlete or somebody or not. What would you say to those kids who are probably needing joy and not really finding it?

[Shawn Johnson East]

I would probably say what I say to my daughter now and my kids, which is. And this is like my personal belief, but it's that I think I would say God has placed hidden treasures in every one of our hearts, and all of our treasures are different. Like, my treasures are different from my daughters, for my son, my other son. But it's the adventure of life to try to find them. And if you get lucky enough to find even one, you need to do everything in your power to protect it. And I say that because I had a conversation with my daughter once where she was like, what if I. I think she was talking about gymnastics, but she's like, what if I don't do gymnastics? And I was like, that's mommy's treasure. That doesn't have to be yours. You will find a treasure, and it will light you up, and it should be different than everyone else's, but the hardship of life is the world will try to. Will try to take your treasure from you or say it's not worth value or say it's a good enough title, and it's your challenge in life to protect it. So I would tell kids that just go on your adventure and try to find it. And if you can, you have to protect it with everything you've got.

[Hoda Kotb]

By the way, you didn't just tell kids. You just told grownups. Because I think that's. I think there are plenty of grownups who are on. They're walking along this path, and it may be filled with potholes and kind of dusty and that maybe not realizing that there's actually a path that's just over this way. It's lush and green and full and has all of the things that they want. But this one's easy because they've been on it and they don't know how to get off it. And this is where I've been. Sounds like you've done a great job of navigating your life, Shawn. You are a delight. By the way, can I just say, I mean, I know I've interviewed you before, but not like this. Not like this. This is so good. Please grab this book. It's called the Courage to Embracing the Radical Power of Sticking with Something. Shawn. Wow. I mean, girl, I love the new you. All right. Thank you.

[CVS Advertiser]

Thank you.

[Hoda Kotb]

All right, Shawn. Have a good one. Thank you. Wow. I mean, as I just said to Sean, like, I've spoken to her before, but never like that. I mean, I knew that she was a deep thinker, and I liked what she said about how a lot of people are very shallow. Not going wide, going deep is really what she's describing. And she spent her life going deep and trying to find ways to make everything better in her relationships with her kids. I'm so turned on. Like, I'm just on fire for what Shawn Johnson east is serving up. She reminded me that, like, other chapters in life are possible, and they're full of love and joy. I mean, imagine if you hit your peak at 16, at least in one profession, then what? And she just proved. And you can see it in her eyes if you're watching the podcast and you can hear it in her voice. She's full of joy. She's in a beautiful chapter in her life and she's growing, she's deepening her understanding, her spirituality, her life, all those things. My cup's full, man. My cup is full. So anyway, let me just close. This is a quote I like to close with, like a quote or a poem. And there was something about this that struck me, and it's a simple quote and it says she was never quite ready, but she was brave. And the universe listens to brave. The universe listens to brave. So for all of us as we are going through transitions in life, we don't always have to be ready, we just have to be brave. She was never quite ready, but she was brave. And the universe listens to brave. That's by Rebecca Ray. Thanks you guys, for listening.

[CVS Advertiser]

CVS is there for moments big and small, making it easy to get what you need and leave feeling confident that you've got it all covered. It's where everyday errands turn into something more. You go in for the essentials, but you end up finding those small, useful things that add a little something extra to your day. With CVS brands, there's something for every moment from trusted care and better for you Essentials to trend forward finds and little touches of joy. Visit your local CVS pharmacy.

[Hoda Kotb]

Presented by CVS Running a business shouldn't

[Odoo Advertiser]

feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com iheartradio that's O D O-O-O.com iheartradio we learned

[Pedigree Advertiser]

how to love dogs from the dogs that loved us and waited for us to get home from school. They were the dogs that raised us. We returned the love with Pedigree Dog Food. It was good then. It's better now. For 40 years, pedigree has been bringing out the goodness in dogs. Every bowl serves up 100% of the nutrition your dog needs. Supporting six health essentials. That's the Pedigree Goodness promise. Pedigree Good then. Better now.

[Shawn Johnson East]

Why is it always chaos when we link up?

[Nissan Rogue Advertiser]

Because nobody plans anything, bro. Good thing the rug's ready like that for real.

Rain, dirt, whatever. Available. All wheel drive, five modes. We still outside.

[Shawn Johnson East]

And they got some kick, too.

[Nissan Rogue Advertiser]

That turbo torque is crazy. The most in its class. It moves. Moves.

Rogue doesn't mess around and peep the space merch on merch. Gear mics. All of it fits.

[Starbucks Advertiser]

Load up.

[CarMax Advertiser]

We out.

[Nissan Rogue Advertiser]

2026 Nissan Rogue. Built for all of it.

Auto Pacific segmentation. 2026 Rogue vs latest in market competitors in the X SUV. Mainstream midsize class, excluding electrical vehicles based on manufacturer websites.

[Redfin Advertiser]

You're listening to a podcast, so you're doing something else, too. Like maybe scrolling home listings on Redfin. Saving places you like without thinking you'll get them. Because that's what house hunting has become. But Redfin isn't built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, which means when you find a place you love, you've got a real shot at getting it. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream.