Adriana Trigiani

Summary

Joy Podcast Episode Summary
Title: Adriana Trigiani
Host: Craig Ferguson
Release Date: July 8, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Joy, Craig Ferguson delves into the multifaceted journey of creativity, storytelling, and the evolving landscape of show business. Although the episode is titled "Adriana Trigiani," the primary conversation revolves around Craig's personal experiences and insights, interspersed with humorous exchanges with a guest named Joey Goldstein. The discussion navigates through Craig's early inspirations, challenges in the entertainment industry, the transition from playwriting to television and novel writing, and reflections on the impact of artificial intelligence on creative endeavors.

Early Life and Inspirations

Craig begins by sharing his Italian heritage and upbringing in Appalachia, highlighting the cultural influences that shaped his passion for show business.

Craig Ferguson [03:39]: "Italy. And don't get excited. Farmers, workers, laborers, blue collar, you know, I'm very proud of them."

He recounts his early involvement in theater, performing in local productions, and the initial struggles he faced in breaking into the entertainment industry.

Craig Ferguson [17:43]: "When they needed to cast the children of Siam in the King and I, they looked at the Italian kids because they look different."

Transition from Playwriting to Television and Novel Writing

The conversation transitions to Craig's shift from playwriting to television. He discusses the challenges of getting his scripts produced and his eventual move into writing for TV shows.

Craig Ferguson [50:00]: "I wrote 17 scripts, and I didn't get them on the air. I came squeaky close with two of them."

Frustrated with the limitations of television writing, Craig explains his pivot to novel writing as a means to freely craft his own narratives without external constraints.

Craig Ferguson [62:36]: "The obstacle in my own mental head to get over. So if anybody's listening to this, who can see it on the other side of that hurdle but can't get over it. You simply have to remove it and say, no, I'm already there. I'm going to write it this way."

Challenges in the Entertainment Industry

Craig offers a candid critique of the modern entertainment industry, highlighting issues such as the saturation of content creators and the diminishing uniqueness of storytelling.

Craig Ferguson [64:49]: "If everybody's in show business, then there's no show business. I think part of the problem on the planet is that people are not in touch with their creative selves, their creativity."

His discussion touches on the struggles writers face with agents and producers, the impact of market demands on creative expression, and the importance of maintaining artistic integrity.

Craig Ferguson [77:26]: "The ability to dramatize is a very unique talent. That doesn't mean that suddenly we have a lot more playwrights. We don't."

The Impact of Artificial Intelligence on Creativity

A significant portion of the conversation explores the role of artificial intelligence in creative fields. Craig expresses skepticism about AI's ability to replicate the soulful journey of human storytelling.

Craig Ferguson [81:43]: "Art is the journey of a soul. AI is the journey of a robot and a computer and artificial intelligence. And they keep trying to sell it to us, but it doesn't have a soul."

Joey Goldstein echoes these sentiments, emphasizing the irreplaceable nature of human creativity and emotional depth in art.

Joey Goldstein [84:56]: "Art is the journey of a soul. AI is the journey of a robot and a computer and artificial intelligence. And they keep trying to sell it to us, but it doesn't have a soul."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reflective dialogue on the essence of creativity and the importance of authentic storytelling. Craig underscores the enduring need for unique voices in the arts, despite the challenges posed by technological advancements and industry dynamics.

Craig Ferguson [85:04]: "The journey of the soul is what binds us as human beings, not... do you know what?"

Joey Goldstein [85:10]: "That's your philosophical brain. That's so interesting to me."

The episode wraps up with light-hearted banter, reinforcing the themes of resilience and passion in the face of an ever-changing creative landscape.

Craig Ferguson [86:19]: "Adventure should never come with a pause button."

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Notable Quotes

• Craig Ferguson [03:39]: "Italy. And don't get excited. Farmers, workers, laborers, blue collar, you know, I'm very proud of them."
• Craig Ferguson [17:43]: "When they needed to cast the children of Siam in the King and I, they looked at the Italian kids because they look different."
• Craig Ferguson [50:00]: "I wrote 17 scripts, and I didn't get them on the air. I came squeaky close with two of them."
• Craig Ferguson [62:36]: "You simply have to remove it and say, no, I'm already there. I'm going to write it this way."
• Craig Ferguson [77:26]: "The ability to dramatize is a very unique talent."
• Craig Ferguson [81:43]: "Art is the journey of a soul. AI is the journey of a robot and a computer and artificial intelligence."
• Craig Ferguson [85:04]: "The journey of the soul is what binds us as human beings."
• Craig Ferguson [86:19]: "Adventure should never come with a pause button."

Key Themes

• Cultural Heritage and Early Influences: Craig's Italian roots and Appalachian upbringing shaping his creative path.
• Evolution of Storytelling: From local theater to television writing and novel creation.
• Industry Challenges: Navigating the competitive and often restrictive entertainment landscape.
• Creativity vs. Commercialization: Maintaining artistic integrity amidst mass content creation.
• AI and the Future of Art: Concerns over artificial intelligence diminishing the depth of human storytelling.

Conclusion

This episode of Joy offers a deep dive into the personal and professional life of Craig Ferguson, exploring the intersections of culture, creativity, and the challenges of modern show business. Through candid conversations and insightful reflections, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of what it means to find and sustain joy in a world inundated with constant change and technological advancements.

Transcript

[Craig Ferguson]

This is an iHeart podcast. Adventure should never come with a pause button.

[Bridget Todd]

Remember MoviePass? All the movies you wanted for just nine bucks. I'm Bridget Todd, host of There Are no Girls on the Internet. And this season, I'm digging into the tech stories we weren't told, starting with Stacey Spikes, the Black founder of MoviePass who got pushed out of the company he built.

[Craig Ferguson]

Everybody's trying to knock you down and it's not gonna work and no one's gonna like it. And then, boom, it's everywhere. And that was that moment.

[Bridget Todd]

Listen to There are no girls on that. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or.

[Joey Goldstein]

Wherever you get your podcast, Smokey the Bear. Then you know why Smokey tells you when he sees you passing through. Remember, please be careful.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's the least that you can do. After 80 years of learning his wildfire prevention tips, Smokey Bear lives within us all. Learn [e-mail] and remember, only you can prevent wildfires brought to you by the.

[USDA Forest Service]

USDA Forest Service, your Forster, and the AD Council.

[Bridget Todd]

We are telling our scientists today we have disdain for your expertise. And then you have China as an exception saying, actually, we're going to invest a trillion dollars in new science. You heard that, right. While the US Is slashing science budgets, China is doubling down. This means here in the United States, less innovation, fewer breakthroughs, and falling behind on the global stage.

[Craig Ferguson]

This week on Dope Labs, Chelsea Clinton.

[Bridget Todd]

Breaks down what these cuts really mean.

[Craig Ferguson]

Listen to Dope labs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Taser Incorporated]

I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1 Taser Incorporated.

[Craig Ferguson]

I get right back there, and it's bad.

[Taser Incorporated]

Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joey Goldstein]

This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, it's actually, it's about an hour and a half, and I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while anyway. Come and see me live on the Pants on Fire tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now, and we'll be adding more as the Tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com See you on the road. My dears. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. Hello, my name is Craig Ferguson. Welcome to the tent in the kidsuper studios in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, New York. My guest today on the joy podcast is an old and dear friend of mine. So we tend to ramble a bit. So just a heads up, this one might go long, and sometimes you might think, what the hell are they talking about? But then again, you may think that about any episode you see or anything you see. Anyway, my friend today is the great Italian writer and personal friend of mine, Adriani Triggiani. Adriana Triggiani. Adriani. That was more than one of her. And there cannot be only one Adriana, as you will see. Well, where are you from?

[Craig Ferguson]

Italy. And don't get excited. Farmers, workers, laborers, blue collar, you know, I'm very proud of them. But Italians, you know this because you've gone to Italy many times.

[Joey Goldstein]

I love Italy.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know you do. That's why we work together. Because you thought she might be okay, but you were so rude to me when I first met you that I thought, oh, this guy.

[Joey Goldstein]

I wasn't rude to you. I was just checking you out. You were like, will you come and.

[Craig Ferguson]

Be in my movie? No. I said no. I said, Mr. Ferguson. I kept calling you Mr. Ferguson. I think that you're like, will you.

[Joey Goldstein]

Be in my movie? I was like, I don't know who else is in it?

[Craig Ferguson]

God bless you. You're a superstar. Okay, so the Italian thing is, we know where we're from down to the village, the street and the house. We know exactly. We'll tell you. We'll send you the little yellow house. You know, it's on the first part of the hill where you go. And if you're not going to do it, they'll serve you lunch. That's the way we roll.

[Joey Goldstein]

Do you know anybody who did that thing where in the godf. You take the name of the town that you're from? Like the Corleone? Because there is a town called Corleone in Sicily. Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, there's also a beautiful tradition there, too, that very often the town names are Jewish families because there's Italian Jews.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

So the name of the town. Well, when they got. When they went through Ellis island, if they couldn't spell it, they sort of did that. But my family remained intact through Ellis Island.

[Joey Goldstein]

The spellings I had to change my name through Alice Allen.

[Craig Ferguson]

You're kidding.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah. My real name is Joey Goldstein. People don't know that about me, but it's a true story.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's the girl part I'm trying to process.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just. It was a thing when I was coming through on the boat. When I was coming off the boat.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, you chronicled your immigration in your book. That was really great. I.

[Joey Goldstein]

It's. I'm very proud.

[Craig Ferguson]

American.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, very. You're a very super. I kind of. I think I irritate my family, who are all born in America.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Joey Goldstein]

With my American ness.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Joey Goldstein]

Like Megan and the kids. I'm like, ah, let's go to NASCAR and stuff like. That's not American. I went, sure it is. Come on. Well, every Fourth of July, we watch Talladega Nights. The Ballad of Ricky Bowen.

[Craig Ferguson]

We love it, too, at our house.

[Joey Goldstein]

That's the greatest movie ever made.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know. You know the. But you're not really a family till you make an annual show of Midnight Run with Robert De Niro. And that is one of the great movies. I watched it with my parents every year.

[Joey Goldstein]

You know, I haven't seen that movie in years.

[Craig Ferguson]

It holds up.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, it does.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, my gosh. Is that movie funny or what?

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, I remember it being funny.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's Charles Grodin.

[Joey Goldstein]

Charles Grodin. He's very funny.

[Craig Ferguson]

He really was very, very funny. He's going to be. He's going to be with the Lord now.

[Joey Goldstein]

O.

[Craig Ferguson]

He's no longer here. Yeah, he was great. He was great. And De Niro, of course, he's still here, and then. He's very much still here and then still got a little baby. Did he just have a little baby? Yeah, he has a little baby. I think she's a year old.

[Joey Goldstein]

Hats off. The Jagger did that as well. Mick Jagger had his younger.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know what? Let's talk about Mick Jagger.

[Joey Goldstein]

I'd be happy to talk about Mick.

[Craig Ferguson]

Cause you taught me about Mickey.

[Joey Goldstein]

I've told. Well, I've been around Mick a lot in my life, and I find he's very interesting, man.

[Craig Ferguson]

He really is. He's.

[Joey Goldstein]

Have you ever met him?

[Craig Ferguson]

I've never met him, but because I have my. I have friends that own the Giants. Sheila, Maire, her family, they invite me every time he comes through.

[Joey Goldstein]

Wait, wait, wait. You have friends who own the Giants?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joey Goldstein]

Why don't you introduce me to those fancy friends I get to meet, like, you know, the guys from, like, Western Pennsylvania and stuff. I'm like, hey, have you met Carmine? That's who I get to be. I don't get to meet the fancy people.

[Craig Ferguson]

I met Sheila Mara on a trip to Israel with Kathie Lee, and we've been friends ever since. Yeah, she's dear friends with all that crew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when the Stones come through, Springsteen. I was there the night Springsteen. I've seen him so many times, countless. Since the river tour, since I was a kid.

[Joey Goldstein]

I'm a fan.

[Craig Ferguson]

You're a big fan of Springsteen.

[Joey Goldstein]

I am, yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

I am, too. But I saw the show. I saw the show where he was sick, and I went, having seen him so many times, I went, he's not right. He's not right. And then, of course, he hit that place in the show where it's Runway to heaven, right? Where he just bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Hit after hit, and the people are screaming.

[Joey Goldstein]

It's the key change in Born to Run.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's right.

[Joey Goldstein]

That's what it is. That's what happens.

[Craig Ferguson]

Absolutely. You're right. You're right. He is the master of the key change.

[Joey Goldstein]

You got to have the key change. Or if you don't have the key change.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, nobody. So true.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, you got to have the key change. Do you play a musical instrument?

[Craig Ferguson]

I do not.

[Joey Goldstein]

I feel like you should. What about the heart?

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay, so now you're digging into my childhood book, right? Well, the town band director, Dave Tipton, met with my parents and said, that kid has musical talent. Me. And I was, like, all excited, and I was imagining what instruments I would play. I really wanted to play the saxophone like my uncle. And my dad was very proficient on the piano. Natural piano player. I mean, like pianist. He classically trained from the age of five, and he'd come home every day from the factory, he'd sit at the piano. That's how he decompressed for 30 minutes. It made us happy because we knew where he was.

[Joey Goldstein]

Do you think that people learn.

[Craig Ferguson]

You didn't even bite on that one. Go ahead. Learn instruments. Why?

[Joey Goldstein]

Well, no, I think. Do people learn instruments less than they used to because they're on fucking Instagram.

[Craig Ferguson]

No. You're really trying to blame stuff.

[Joey Goldstein]

I'm against it. I want the Internet to be stopped.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay?

[Joey Goldstein]

I should stop the Internet right now. It's going out of control.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's too late with social media because we don't have magazines and newspapers like we did. I know. So now we have to tune into the Craig Ferguson magazine, whatever that is on the Internet, and find you on YouTube. Or wherever your face is sold. Yeah, okay, but it used to be.

[Joey Goldstein]

But you still write books. I still get, you know, you still write big papery books that you read. They're lovely.

[Craig Ferguson]

I still do, still do. Thank you. But that's an industry that seems to benefit from this. Booktok has changed book sales. The major publishers make over a billion a year each. Some of them 3 billion, 4 billion. So they're doing very well. And here's the other thing you need to know. You got to just kind of stand back from things sometimes and go, hmm, the way we're telling stories changes. Just read a little interview with Clark Gable from 1950 and he was dead set against television because he was a movie star, a movie actor. And he said we have to be loyal to the industry that brought us. But look what that simple change in the late 40s and early 50s did to the industry. We began to tell stories in different ways. Now last year in the United States of America, I've been doing this 25 years with books. Last year in the United States of America, 3.8 billion million books. Not billion sorry everybody. Million books were self published. So there's 3.8 million people in the United States. More people than buy books are writing them. So the storytelling, the way we tell stories has completely changed.

[Joey Goldstein]

Well, has it though? I mean the fact that if you self publish a book, do you think that if 3.8 million people are writing books and self publishing, is that changing the way we tell stories or is just a lot of people doing, doing it the way we used to do it with not very good editors? Cause you know, the publishing house is. I've read some great self published books and I've read some that I'm like, you know, this could have.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well you're a big reader. So let's go by this, the industry itself. I haven't noticed that they've added a lot of editors. I haven't noticed that they've added a lot of imprints to accommodate this. But you do find out when you scratch the surface that traditional publishers own the lion's share of self publishing business.

[Joey Goldstein]

No.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes. So you pay somebody to be published and sometimes at these self publishing houses they have editors for you designers.

[Joey Goldstein]

I'm a big fan of editors. I think editors are great.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, I need them. I need my editor Maya Zeb. I need her. I need editors. I also like you. I do like to work collaboratively with a group. I think it brings, it makes.

[Joey Goldstein]

I think that's cause you're a TV writer. Though, right?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I was a playwright first, but that playwright really, that's really the family. When you write for the theater. That's the island of misfit toys. That's, you know, floating to profit. I mean, it's like those poor souls. I mean, you know, all of us. I consider myself one of those poor souls. But the theater is the place where you make something for no money. You tell a story for no money. Whole reason I went into the theater was because I needed a piece of paper and a pencil and a space. And I did. When I began as a playwright, I did plays on buses. I did plays everywhere.

[Joey Goldstein]

You did a play on a bus?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I did a play on a bus. It got me in a lot of trouble too, because I did it on a shuttle bus between Notre Dame, University of Notre Dame and St. Mary's College. They ran a shuttle bus.

[Joey Goldstein]

That sounds like a very Catholic bus.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, Catholics are interesting. Yeah, it's an interesting way to describe it.

[Joey Goldstein]

You know, they got some of those in Italy, did you know that? I saw them there.

[Craig Ferguson]

You're obsessed with religion.

[Joey Goldstein]

You know, I kind of am a little bit.

[Craig Ferguson]

You are. And I think that that's beautiful. On a certain level you're a very spiritual person. But I also think, you know, you're a very bitter person and that goes with religion.

[Joey Goldstein]

How dare you.

[Craig Ferguson]

But, you know, he's not at all.

[Joey Goldstein]

You know, I am.

[Craig Ferguson]

He's a delicious delight.

[Joey Goldstein]

No, no, no. I think I've got a certain amount of bitterness, but that's part of the recipe of being a human being. I think if you don't have bitterness, you're not fucking paying attention. There's some things you should be bitter at about.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's true.

[Joey Goldstein]

You know, like every time I feel my knees when I stand up, I'm.

[Craig Ferguson]

Like, God damn it, let's talk about aging.

[Joey Goldstein]

That's all right. Well, look very briefly though, but let's.

[Craig Ferguson]

Go back to self publishing.

[Joey Goldstein]

No, no, no, no. That's way, way. Just want to take us on the journey from where you start to where you so very quickly. But we won't make a huge deal. But for those people unfortunate enough to not know your story, let's do a concise, well edited short story of you starting out as a fresh faced Italian immigrant getting off the boat. Ellis Island.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh my God.

[Joey Goldstein]

So where you're from, the Appalachians, right?

[Craig Ferguson]

I grew up in Appalachia.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

In southwest Virginia.

[Joey Goldstein]

Bless you.

[Craig Ferguson]

Started out in the Northeastern United States with my little family of seven brothers and seven of us and my parents and my dad got a low interest government loan to start a blouse mill in Appalachia. That's how we ended up there. People always say, how do Italians get down there? Well, that's how the Italians got down there.

[Joey Goldstein]

So you started off a blouse. Well, your father started a blouse mill.

[Craig Ferguson]

Manufacturing. Yeah, he made warm blouses, but he was trained in his parents blouse mill in Martin's Creek, Pennsylvania.

[Joey Goldstein]

All right, so how did you get that doesn't sound like a quick short hop to show business from there. That's not like. Well, you know, we make blouses.

[Craig Ferguson]

I wanted to be. I was just talking to our intern Lainey about this. I wanted to be in show. I still. It's my highest dream. See, I love show business. I love it more. I love show business more than any person. Man child, I'm in love with show business, and I'm still obsessed with it. Yeah, there's something, every aspect of it, you know, begging you to do a.

[Joey Goldstein]

Movie or that you asked me nicely and I said, sure.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, you said, I'll call you back in 48 hours. No person ever said that to me. I got to put it away. 48 hours. What's he talking.

[Joey Goldstein]

Did I say that? You did.

[Craig Ferguson]

I'll come back in 48 hours. Because you were in Italy with your friends and you didn't want to be bothered.

[Joey Goldstein]

Well, yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't. I. I can't. I can't understand why. I said 48 hours.

[Craig Ferguson]

48 hours.

[Joey Goldstein]

48 hours.

[Craig Ferguson]

So then I. Then I. I said that, you know, I said, In 48 hours we'll have an answer. Everybody relax.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right?

[Craig Ferguson]

We'll see if he comes back.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, but this is not about that. This is about you.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know, but we have to throw in those things because that. Think of you, and I just start laughing. Okay, and you, you're Appalachian. Okay? It's the Scottish Irish area of the United States. So when we went to Scotland and we made a movie there, I. I was the only person on that crew from America who could understand the local people, because it sounded like it to me. Sound like an Appalachian.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, it's. It's very. It's got a very.

[Craig Ferguson]

So when you go to Appalachia, you're not straining to, like, understand what people are saying. And if I slip into it, which I am known to do, you understand? So there we are in Appalachia. No connections to show business.

[Joey Goldstein]

So what I want you to say, I want to write a play, and it's Gonna go on on a bus between the Catholic college and the other Catholic place.

[Craig Ferguson]

That was later. Please.

[Joey Goldstein]

All right.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay. Please. You're ruining the best part of the story.

[Joey Goldstein]

Oh, no way. Okay. What's that?

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay, because we were Italian, there was an outdoor drama there called the Trail of Lonesome Pine. Outdoor drama. My brother Carlo played little Bub. Big bubble. An old bub. Okay. That's how long he was in the drama.

[Joey Goldstein]

Very, very Style man.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes. He's a great actor, my brother. And we were all involved in the town, in the theater, and I was on the crew because Carlo was a star. He played like the boy in Mame, the fiddler on the roof, wherever the little kid was. And they got a kid in every musical.

[Joey Goldstein]

Corky. I think that's the name of the Kirky.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay, so. You're so wrong.

[Joey Goldstein]

Corky is fun.

[Craig Ferguson]

You're so wrong. And you're doing this during two things. During Tony Awards season and Pride Month. You should be ashamed of yourself. Anyway, get the characters correct. Anyway, so when they needed to cast the children of Siam in the King and I, they looked at the Italian, said they look different. Put them in.

[Joey Goldstein]

Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

So we were the kids that went. Okay.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

So that's when I really fell in love with show business. When I was in my first thing.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yep.

[Craig Ferguson]

Then I wasn't cute, so I was put in the chorus.

[Joey Goldstein]

You're beautiful.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. You think that because you love me. You're my brother. But I'm just telling you, back then, no, my glasses were this thick and they were like, oh, yeah. Can you see stage left? Not really. Okay. And you know, in certain areas of history, people didn't wear eyeglasses. And there was one director that came through who was very fancy, said, everybody take your glasses off. And the people were. We were piling up backstage. It was bad anyway.

[Joey Goldstein]

Oh, because you were doing a period piece and you couldn't wear glasses.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, you can't wear glasses so. Well, you certainly couldn't wear Oscar de la Renta windshields that we were all wearing.

[Joey Goldstein]

Hello, this is Craig Ferguson and I want to let you know I have a brand new stand up comedy special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm so Happy, and I would be so happy if you checked it out. To watch the special, just go to my YouTube channel at the Craig Ferguson show and it's just right there. Just click it and play it and it's free. I can't. Look, I'm not going to come around your house and show you how to do it. If you can't do it, then you can't have it. But if you can figure it out, it's yours.

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[Taser Incorporated]

I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.

[Joey Goldstein]

Across the country, cops called this Taser the Revolution.

[Taser Incorporated]

But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.

[Craig Ferguson]

Cops believed everything that Taser told from.

[Taser Incorporated]

Lava for good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is absolute Season one Taser Incorporated.

[Craig Ferguson]

I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad.

[Taser Incorporated]

Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21 and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4 ad free at Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ebony]

Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebony, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm ebony, and every Tuesday, I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. On Pretty Private, we'll explore the untold experiences of women of color who faced it all. Childhood trauma, addiction, abuse, incarceration, grief, mental health struggles, and more. And found the strength to make it to the other side.

[Bridget Todd]

My dad was shot and killed in his house. Yes, he was a drug dealer. Yes, he was a confidential informant, but he wasn't shot on a street corner. He wasn't shot in the middle of a drug deal. He was shot in his house, unarmed.

[Ebony]

Pretty Private isn't just a podcast. It's your personal guide for turning storylines into lifelines. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast network. Tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Joey Goldstein]

I have a theory about movies made in the 1970s. This is a thing that I've recently, I've started watching movies made in the 1970s, and I feel like.

[Craig Ferguson]

So we're talking Hal Ashby, right? All those guys. Okay.

[Joey Goldstein]

Like movies that were made in the 1970s. I feel like all of the actors said we're not getting anything but 1970s haircuts here. It doesn't matter what period we're playing. I don't care if we're playing Nazis, Roman guys. I don't care if we're outlaws. I don't care if we're. Everybody had a 1970s haircut.

[Craig Ferguson]

They wouldn't do anything else. You're right.

[Joey Goldstein]

I just went, no, fuck it. No.

[Craig Ferguson]

And they wore the glasses they wanted to wear. They wore those big windshield wiper eyeglasses. And I think you also, when you think of the 1970s in film, you have to talk about teeth.

[Joey Goldstein]

Well, you know, I'm from a country where teeth is not something that we talk about. Okay?

[Craig Ferguson]

I lived there for six months. People have beautiful teeth. What is that new?

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, you were mixing with the smart teeth set. That's what it was. And also those teeth, many of those teeth arrived later.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, I See what you're saying?

[Joey Goldstein]

Anyway, look, look, look, look. So we're back, and you've got your glasses on, and you're in the play, but now you love show business, and you say, I want to write a play for Catholics.

[Craig Ferguson]

So I wrot. I didn't write a play for Catholics. First, I wrote a play. I started to write for the school assemblies. And my friends remember this, that during the bicentennial, I decided that I was a playwright then, and I wrote monologues for people to play historical figures in my school.

[Joey Goldstein]

Nice. Who did you write?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes, I did. Well, Harriet Tubman.

[Joey Goldstein]

Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

Ben Franklin.

[Joey Goldstein]

Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

Frederick Douglass.

[Joey Goldstein]

Okay. So we're sticking with American.

[Craig Ferguson]

American heroes kind of people.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

And my friend Gene Williams, who is African American, came from a long line of teachers, and she. She herself became a teacher. And I was just with her in Big Stone Gap. We get together and we just all start. We just laugh. And I said, remember what? And we put her in the Big Stone Gap movie because I knew she was an actor, and I needed somebody with Whoopi Goldberg in a scene, and those two. It was like Jean met Whoopi at her level. I can't even. But we had a long history because I cast her as Harriet Tubman for the school assembly, and I was short on costumes, so I went into the home EC room, and they had made bonnets, shower caps, but they were plastic. I took one of them, and I took an apron, and I said, sit in the rocking chair. Do the monologue. Harriet Tubman with a plastic shower cap on. But when the thing opened, the student body went crazy. They thought it was a comedy that she was in that shower cap.

[Joey Goldstein]

Oh, no.

[Craig Ferguson]

And Jean, actor that she was, she just pushed through it, and I'm waiting in the wings for her. She came back and she took off that shower cap, and she threw it at me. And she goes, never again, Trejanni. Never again. Is that story amusing on your podcast, or is that just too private a story? But anyway, so she still remembers that she did it. And I remembered the whole. Anyhow, so then when it came time, I said, I'm paying you back. Okay? You're gonna be in the movie.

[Joey Goldstein]

You're getting paid. Whoa, whoa. You jumped ahead here. Oh, did I?

[Craig Ferguson]

You want me to get to the St. Mary's of it all?

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah. So you're right. Now you're writing a play for cast.

[Craig Ferguson]

So I mean, well, for the patriarchy, really, because Notre Dame is a monolith, and St. Mary's is this sort of really wonderful Women's college, which are not in fashion anymore, although it's thriving. But it's next door to Notre Dame. But it's got. In my mind, it's more beautiful, has better land, prettier buildings.

[Joey Goldstein]

Did you go there? Were you sitting there?

[Craig Ferguson]

I went to St. Mary's okay. And so the first thing I would have to attack is the disparity of power. So we got on the bus and I wrote scenes, sketches that the girls would do as if they're having a real conversation, but they were based on real conversations, like about who they were dating and whatever. I'm changing names, Right. But they'd be holding the thing on the shuttle bus.

[Joey Goldstein]

Who's watching these plays then? On the bus?

[Craig Ferguson]

Everybody that's riding a bus. It's a built in audience.

[Joey Goldstein]

Who's riding the bus? Who's riding the bus?

[Craig Ferguson]

Students going back and forth for classes and at night for parties.

[Joey Goldstein]

Do this play on the subway.

[Craig Ferguson]

How would you, you know, that's a great idea, except you can't hear down there. You gotta see it.

[Joey Goldstein]

You gotta project.

[Craig Ferguson]

Like the guy, like the guy that comes through and says, Give me a 20 or I'll kill myself right in front of your eyes. That guy. Yeah. You hear him? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. That guy. So I did that. Then I did a stage show with it, with this. Then we became. We evolved into a comedy troupe. And I just picked the girls. That one looked like Pat Benatar. Mimi Commons. She always wore leopard. And she was in the art department. People didn't really talk to her too much. And then I found out she was just painfully shy.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

Because she was the one that really. She'd barf before every performance and be like, Mimi.

[Joey Goldstein]

I used to do that.

[Craig Ferguson]

You did?

[Joey Goldstein]

I used to throw up.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's a sign of greatness. I never threw up.

[Joey Goldstein]

Never worked out for Mila.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, I never.

[Joey Goldstein]

Now, before I go to stage, I.

[Craig Ferguson]

Couldn'T do anything that would directly make me thin. Nothing. I never threw up. Heroin.

[Joey Goldstein]

What about heroin? Heroin.

[Craig Ferguson]

I didn't, I never. You know I didn't do drugs. You know I didn't do them because fear. I, I, I don't. Please.

[Joey Goldstein]

Listen. Whatever it takes to keep you off the needle, fear is fine. Fear is fine. I never did that. That stuff. No.

[Craig Ferguson]

No needles. No, no, no. We're staying on you and drinking to me. I'd rather eat the calories. I, I, I, I'd rather eat.

[Joey Goldstein]

I've never.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Joey Goldstein]

You know, I don't think I've ever seen you drink anything? You drink cocktails or something, don't you? Sometimes.

[Craig Ferguson]

Not really. Not really. Not really my brother, No, I don't. Because it's a lot of sugar in there. And I was born pre diabetic. I'm Italian. You have to really watch it. You gotta be careful with the sugar, so.

[Joey Goldstein]

But here's the thing I feel like.

[Craig Ferguson]

Now, look, this, you know, don't get off the place. Keep going.

[Joey Goldstein]

No, no, no, I'm gonna. I'm just gonna take. Cause you said the Italian thing. I'm gonna say something about Italy now. And now you know how much I love Italy.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know you love it.

[Joey Goldstein]

It's like every time I go to Italy, I think, why don't I live here? It's crazy.

[Craig Ferguson]

Why don't we get side by side houses in the Alps? That's where I'm looking.

[Joey Goldstein]

I don't. I don't have bestseller money. I'm not like. I don't have the type of money you have.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, we can buy a house there for $3,000. Why wouldn't we do it if.

[Joey Goldstein]

If we can buy it? I saw your house for $3,000. I don't want to live there.

[Craig Ferguson]

I saw your skills at the castle in Scotland.

[Joey Goldstein]

That's the mess you can dig.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's Megan's I'm talking about. Who goes out and digs the trenches and plants treats. I need you for that. Move the stonework.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, I do that.

[Craig Ferguson]

With your little wagon. By yourself, with your bitterness. Oh, just moving the rock.

[Joey Goldstein]

Raging despair. Just digging away.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right.

[Joey Goldstein]

Those Indiana. Get me to do that stupid film.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, but wouldn't this be fun? I mean, our family, we love each other. We could go up there, but you would be like this day too. I hate, I hate. Ha.

[Joey Goldstein]

I hate.

[Craig Ferguson]

Because I've been peeping in on you. Hey, let's go.

[Joey Goldstein]

All right. Anyway, so we're back now you're in this Catholic school.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay, so. I mean, yeah, but it's. But it's the 1980s, so let's not get crazy. It's like everything changed. And I believe in the 1980s. I think there's a hundred years between 1979 and 1989. Do you agree with that?

[Joey Goldstein]

I'm not against it, but I need you to elaborate a little bit. What do you think?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, there's been these studies that are sociological studies. And I would refer everyone to Kurt Anderson's book on this topic. The title escapes me, but we'll put it in the prompt. He wrote this book about that. That really Intrigued me. And it's gotten us to 20, 25 in a certain way. When we were kids, the decade was defined by the cars, the haircuts, the people. It changed through time. Okay? My mother might have been wearing a pillbox hat in 1960, but by 1970, she was in a caftan with Cher bracelets up her arm. Okay, okay, okay. Follow this. The haircuts. There were haircuts, right? In the 50s, there was a thing called the Italian cut. The Italians, who were Persona non grata in the United States after World War II, assumed a position of artistic and cultural excellence. Cars, haircuts, movie stars, Chinichi Ta.

[Joey Goldstein]

I'll tell you something about haircuts. So in the 1970s, you know Rod Stewart's haircut? Yeah, right?

[Craig Ferguson]

We gotta talk about Rod Stewart.

[Joey Goldstein]

That was a typical Rod Stewart haircut, right? It was a 1970s Rod Stewart haircut. And my mother used to say, oh, that Rod Stewart, he thinks he's fancy with his blowjob haircut. I'm like, mom, that's not. I don't think they're called. That said, oh, yes, they go to the salons and they get those blowjob haircuts. I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's not what they call him. But she was convinced that Ross. I'm not saying that Rod never had a blow job. I'm just saying he never had a blowjob hair.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's so funny, because, you know, there's everything. Everything is what I love about show business. Everything forms these circles. And I just talked to Peter Wolf on my podcast about his memoir. And you should talk to him, because that, man, every page is like, Tomas. Loaded, loaded stories. But the first time in history, I saw a negative thing about Rod Stewart. And I asked him, I said, I don't know Rod Stewart. I never met Rod Stewart. But I find Rod Stewart a ray of light.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, me too.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think he was.

[Joey Goldstein]

There was the negativity about Rod Stewart.

[Craig Ferguson]

He was a little snutty. No, he walked by the. He walked by the J. Giles Band and didn't give him their proper snaps. Fuck no. You don't think so? You asked me.

[Joey Goldstein]

I can't believe that to be true. Let me tell you, though, about his taste. Mitch Leopard was someone who wears leopard.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, he wears anything he wants.

[Joey Goldstein]

But I gotta tell you this. But Roy Stewart, this is a true story. I was in Heathrow Airport waiting for a plane. That's why I go there. I don't go for any other reason. I was in there and I was waiting for a plane, and Rod Stewart walks through the airport. And every time people were going, oh, my God, Rod Stewart. And he would look at people and say Rod Stewart. He'd say his own name. I was like, that's how I'm. I love that.

[Craig Ferguson]

You just go through and say Craig Fergus.

[Joey Goldstein]

No, I go through and say Rod Stewart. And people are like that. Who's that old man Blowjob haircut. Anyway, look, so we get. We're back. We have to get you back to. How do you get writing Catholic plays to New York City? Cause then you come in New York.

[Craig Ferguson]

Why do you call them Catholic? They're not Catholic plays. I wrote a play called Notes from the Nile, which I really would love to do again. I rewrote the story.

[Joey Goldstein]

I'll do it again. Who else is in it?

[Craig Ferguson]

I wrote the story. You would be great as Julius Caesar. Cause I bring him back from the dead, and there's a three way conflict between Cleopatra, her former lover, Julius Caesar, which you would play, and Anthony, which we would get somebody. Exactly. I know, so.

[Joey Goldstein]

But I would play Julius Caesar. Scottish?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, you could do whatever you want.

[Joey Goldstein]

Hey, everybody.

[Craig Ferguson]

By the way, ladies and gentlemen, I'm just gonna say this directly to the audience. He says he's gonna play it Scottish. He would only play it Scottish because he makes the decision and drives the bus as an actor. Okay. But also, and quite excellently, so do whatever you want. I'm not gonna argue with you.

[Joey Goldstein]

Well, also, I think that would be good to play Jodi.

[Craig Ferguson]

Besides, everybody in America thinks you have a British accent. They don't know well, the difference.

[Joey Goldstein]

Ancient Rome people think that because of the movies. Because the movies, like, yes, all ancient Romans talked like this. Caesar, quickly come here. And how about they say, hey, what's coming to go? It's time for something nice to eat.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, God, love the Italians.

[Joey Goldstein]

I like Italians. Anyway, look, how do we get you from college to New York City? That's what I want to do. We're telling your story today.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay. So. So I knew I had to come here. This was my highest dream.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right?

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay.

[Joey Goldstein]

Because you want to come here and you want to write a place for Broadway, right?

[Craig Ferguson]

That's right. And I have no place else to go. I can't go home. My parents still have kids at home. I would say that, you know, they were done. Okay. Like, besides, I wouldn't go home. I needed. I had this burning like crazy, as you know, to get into show business. So I. I came up north to my grandmother's and I had my stuff in paper bags, basically. And my grandmother called this kind of nutty friend of hers in Garrison, New York, and said, my granddaughter needs a place to live in New York City. She said, tell her to go to the Longacre Hotel for Women. Cheap, clean. I stay there whenever I go into New York. Now, meanwhile, this lady lived in, like, a Frank Lloyd Wright house in Garrison. She was very wealthy, but nobody knew it.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

But she's an old friend of my grandma's from the factory day.

[Joey Goldstein]

Do they still have the. That hotel?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, now, that's the thing that's changed. The 90s, kind of. Everything collapsed. Like, there was the. That I got from the Longacre Hotel for Women.

[Joey Goldstein]

Where was that? Was that in Manhattan?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes, on 45th, between 8th and 9th.

[Joey Goldstein]

Okay, that sounds like a dangerous place for you to be. What year are we talking about?

[Craig Ferguson]

It's not that bad. 85. Not that bad. Not terrible. But anyway, it's not cleaned up yet. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I immediately form a comedy troupe like I had at St. Mary's we knew girls, and one of the girls in it was a crafty girl from Virginia and South Carolina named Eleanor Jones.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay.

[Joey Goldstein]

Who became.

[Craig Ferguson]

Who came into the group. And I said, look, I'm running out of dough. And she said. I said, I got a tip on a sublet. She said, I wouldn't do that, but if you want. But I took it within two weeks. Knock on the door. The guy that I gave the money, not Eleanor. Eleanor was at the Mill Bank House. The Milbank house was a. Was a. A boarding house for women in the arts. But you had to be between 19 and 25, and then they kicked you out. Although there was a woman in there named lamya. She was 42 if she was a day, and she never left. So you had to, like kids, get out of there. No, Lamia wore wigs. Nobody could figure Lamia out. She was a beauty.

[Joey Goldstein]

But let's not get caught up in Lamia. Let's get back to you, though. Let's not get caught up in Lamia. That's how she gets you. That's how she gets you.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's how I get you off track. Because we've done this enough now, you know. Okay, So I get into the Millbank House, and when that happens, now I'm golden. I lost all my money because I gave it to the sublet guy, and it was a thief. It was a guy who had sublet in between. And two dancers showed up in the middle of the night and get out of our apartment. And I said, no. I gave so and so the money. And he said, no. That guy sublet from us. He. He took your money?

[Joey Goldstein]

Oh, no.

[Craig Ferguson]

So I went, okay, well, listen, you lose money along the way, you never lose it again in that fashion. Now, I know that. I know that just caused like 50 needles just went into your neck when I said I lost money, but I did.

[Joey Goldstein]

I've lost a little bit along the way.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know you have. Okay, so. So Eleanor says, I'm gonna get you in here at the Millbank house. I'm gonna get you in. I said, please, please get me in. It was starting to snow.

[Joey Goldstein]

Oh, my God. You're on the street. You're like the little Match.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, no, no. I'm not the Little Match girl. I'm still at the Longacre Hotel.

[Joey Goldstein]

Okay?

[Craig Ferguson]

I'm okay. I show up with my bags, and the lady that answers the door changed my life. June Lawton, she's running the house. And I said, I need a room. And once. So she said, I have a guest room now. I was temping on Wall Street. So I had. I was. I was. You couldn't save money in New York. I don't care. But I knew I could pull it off. So it was a hundred dollars a week, two meals Monday through Friday and breakfast on Saturday and Sunday. Hey, that's enough food, right?

[Joey Goldstein]

Sure.

[Craig Ferguson]

Get your own room.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

And shared baths that are like a dorm. Really nice, clean, beautiful. And she pulled. She. She brought me in. So I.

[Joey Goldstein]

And did she take you into show business? How did you get into it where it gets good? Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

Because nobody would talk to that lady. And she was very beautiful.

[Joey Goldstein]

Why wouldn't they talk?

[Craig Ferguson]

Because she's the. Nobody likes the boss. You know that? Nobody. And she was. She was the house mother. And she was always telling people to get your feet off of things. And you can't have a boy inside the house. And the girls were propping the door open with a shoe. They had a lady that answered the door. I mean, it was like a whole thing. It was like. It was like 1940 in 1985. That's how I will describe the bank house. Okay. But the food was good. He had a washer, dryer, and a phone on each floor.

[Joey Goldstein]

Let's not get stuck in the hotel here. How do we get you into show business? Cause you're really selling the hotel to me. You're, like, holding the doors open with shoes. There's a phone on every floor. There's a meal on Sundays because How.

[Craig Ferguson]

Can I describe how you get your dream if I don't tell you where you stay and how you kind of make it happen?

[Joey Goldstein]

You're a novelist, that's why you're doing that. But this is not a novel, it's a podcast. So I'm editing. You.

[USDA Forest Service]

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? WashablesOfAs.com has your back featuring the Annabe collection, the only designer sofa that's machine washable inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. That's right, sofas start at just $699. Enjoy a no risk experience with pet friendly stain resistant and changeable slipcovers made with performance fabrics. Experience cloud like comfort with high resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime. Check out washablesofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anna Bay sofa backed by a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees. Every penny back. Upgrade [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Taser Incorporated]

I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.

[Joey Goldstein]

Across the country, cops called this Taser the Revolution.

[Taser Incorporated]

But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.

[Craig Ferguson]

Cops believed everything that Taser told them.

[Taser Incorporated]

From Lava for good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season one, Taser Incorporated.

[Craig Ferguson]

I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad.

[Taser Incorporated]

Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2 and 3 on May 21 and episodes 4, 5 and 6 on June 4 ad free at Lava for Good. Plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Craig Ferguson]

Foreign.

[Ebony]

Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebony, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebony and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. On Pretty Private, we'll explore the untold experiences of women of color who faced it all. Childhood trauma, addiction, abuse, incarceration, grief mental health struggles and more, and found the strength to make it to the other side.

[Bridget Todd]

My dad was shot and killed in his house. Yes, he was a drug dealer. Yes, he was a confidential informant. But he wasn't shot on a street corner. He wasn't shot in the middle of a drug deal. He was shot in his house, unarmed.

[Craig Ferguson]

Prison.

[Ebony]

Pretty Private isn't just a podcast. It's your personal guide for turning storylines into lifelines. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect podcast network. Tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Dr. Lea Tritate]

Sometimes it's hard to remember, but going.

[Joey Goldstein]

Through something like that is a traumatic.

[Craig Ferguson]

Experience, but it's also not the end of your life.

[Dr. Lea Tritate]

That was my dad reminding me and so many others who need to hear it that our trauma is not our shame to carry and that we have big, bold and beautiful lives to live after what happened to us. I'm your host and co president of this organization, Dr. Lea Tritate. On my new podcast, the Unwanted Sorority, we wade through transformation to peel back healing and reveal what it actually looks like and sounds like in real time. Each week, I sit down with people who've lived through harmony, carried silence, and are now reshaping the systems that failed us. We're going to talk about the adultification of black girls mothering as resistance and the tools we use for healing. The Unwanted Sorority is a safe space, not a quiet space. So let's lock in. We're moving towards liberation together. Listen to the Unwanted Sorority. New episodes every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast guests.

[Joey Goldstein]

So now how do we get you. How do we get you into the. The show business world that you.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay, first thing I do is I'm. I found a comedy troupe and I call my dad and he knows a guy in the garment district and I hold auditions. And those girls became the core group. And I kept that going for seven years with different girls.

[Joey Goldstein]

Where did you perform?

[Craig Ferguson]

Upstairs at the Vesuvio was our first run. Then we were okay. Yes, it is. It's kind of a mob joint, if you have to know the truth.

[Joey Goldstein]

Hey, you know, we got these girls. They're upstairs, they're doing play. It's about Catholics.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's funny. Really funny. Did that. Then we did the cabaret circuit, so the duplex.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right, Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

We did the comedy clubs.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

We did like, we were openers like Silver Friedman had us open for people. Cause did music too. And then you didn't get comedy clubs anymore.

[Joey Goldstein]

It's single performance only.

[Craig Ferguson]

Nobody wanted to see us coming with, you know, a giant subway token spray painted gold that we did on the roof of the Millbank. Nobody cared about that after a certain point.

[Joey Goldstein]

I want to see that.

[Craig Ferguson]

And, you know, we also did Kelly's Village west, which we weren't sure what it was. I was the booker, right? And my boss on Wall street will tell you I took his story, his rollover line, as my business line, and I answered it like this. 3169. And they go, is this Adriana Trejani? Are you booking the act and the thing? And I go, yeah. So one day he called the second line because I was ratted out. And I went, 3169. And he said, this is your boss. I need to talk to you. And I went, uh. Oh, no. I hung up. Don't worry. This guy, he just liked the fact that I was funny. And he. He's still my dear friend.

[Joey Goldstein]

He's like an eccentric guy in Wall Street.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, he's not eccentric at all. He's like young and a go getter and tops and pops. But he was. He was Italian.

[Joey Goldstein]

Whoa, whoa. What's tops and bops?

[Craig Ferguson]

It just means he's like. He's like, climbing the ladder at Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner, and Smith. I don't even think it even exists anymore.

[Joey Goldstein]

See, when people say to me, how are you feeling? I'm going to say, tops and tops and pops.

[Craig Ferguson]

You never heard that?

[Joey Goldstein]

No. I'm gonna say, from now on, ask me how I feel.

[Craig Ferguson]

He'll age out of it, though. My grandmother used to say it.

[Joey Goldstein]

Come on, come on, ask me.

[Craig Ferguson]

How you feeling, Craig?

[Joey Goldstein]

Tubs and pops.

[Craig Ferguson]

You think anybody's gonna like this podcast?

[Joey Goldstein]

I don't give a shit.

[Craig Ferguson]

What are we doing? I love it.

[Joey Goldstein]

I don't give a shit.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay. Okay. That's why you're a success in show business. You have that I don't care gene. Okay, go ahead.

[Joey Goldstein]

So you get out of. You get out of St. Mary's you get out of. No, no, no, no, no. Now you're in show business.

[Craig Ferguson]

And now I'm in.

[Joey Goldstein]

You're in the comedy troupe.

[Craig Ferguson]

I'm in the comedy troupe, and everybody's conspiring to help me make my dream come true.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right? You're still writing. Are you going to write the. When do you start writing the TV comedies? What's the first TV comedy you started writing?

[Craig Ferguson]

First TV comedy was. Okay, there's one thing before that, which was Off Broadway at the Manhattan Theater Club. And you noticed I've never worked there since it was called Secrets of the Lava Lamp for Camille Saviola, who was starring in Nine the Musical. She was a little tugboat of a woman. She's in heaven now, I guess you say.

[Joey Goldstein]

I guess, like, maybe she's not.

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't know. I don't know if she believes she'd go there. But anyway, that's all what you believe. So she found me. I was doing staged readings all over the city. Directors doing staged readings with really great actors. Okay. I mean, really great. And I said to myself, I said, take your 20s to learn how to do this. Work with other actors and see what you could do and direct them and see what you know. Anyway, so that led to. She hired me, Camille Saviola, and I got trashed by Mel Gusau in the New York Times.

[Joey Goldstein]

Oh, we've all been trash in the New York Times. That's part of life.

[Craig Ferguson]

I didn't really care. But the people I was temping for, they were a little embarrassed because they all came to the show and they were like, how'd you get your.

[Joey Goldstein]

I don't like people I know coming to the show.

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't like to see anybody.

[Joey Goldstein]

I know I do sometimes.

[Craig Ferguson]

I haven't seen you sack. No, but recently. Yeah. However. So this turned into, for me was another trajectory of show business. How did I get tv? Was my girlfriends. Two of them were working in the mailroom at William Morris. Suzanne Gluck, who become a huge agent, and Ruth Pomeranz, who was at the time was a producer. She was like a baby producer. And she discovered Grisham for the movie.

[Joey Goldstein]

She was a mom, or she was.

[Craig Ferguson]

I mean, a baby producer. Like, she was a newbie. She was young.

[Joey Goldstein]

She was in her 20s. She wasn't producing babies.

[Craig Ferguson]

She's so smart. Ruth is still one of the most brilliant people I know. They kind of sat me down. They said, you. You're terrible. You blowing past your bs Anyway, so you're bullshit. Anyway. I'm trying to tell the story. You get. You get me off track, and then you blame me.

[Joey Goldstein]

All right, all right. Tell the story. You know, okay, tell the story.

[Craig Ferguson]

So, okay. So. So Ruth and Suzanne said, hey, I was really broke and I need to make money. They said, you need an agent. I said, what do they do? They get you jobs. I said, really? This is. What a hayseed. I. I had the dream, but none of the. The logic. I didn't understand. I just thought they'd find my work, you know, well, this is when it gets magical. They said, you need to write tv. Now keep in mind I grew up in a place where you barely got reception. The first show I remember, really remember Loving was the Waltons.

[Joey Goldstein]

Oh, I love that show about, about.

[Craig Ferguson]

A poor family in Appalachia. That was our family.

[Joey Goldstein]

Family. Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, that's what I call this, except we were like the 1970s. But anyway, so, so I, I knew, I knew I had to figure out a way with, with, with my past and my lineage, which was non existent, how to break into the business whatever way I could. And so when they, they made me a list of agents and they said, said, you're gonna meet all these people. And there was a list. And I went to the first guy and I liked him and I said, I'm gonna, I called him up, I said, I'm gonna go with him, but you need to meet everybody. I said, no, for what?

[Joey Goldstein]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

I like this guy Wiley Howsam at icm. Right, so Wiley, Wiley Howsam. Howsam. He has a great name. Wiley is great.

[Joey Goldstein]

He's a great name. I feel like we should do an animated version of your life and Wiley should be played by some sort of.

[Craig Ferguson]

Against Wiley Coyote, I don't know. Yeah, okay. No, it's a different kind of Wiley. But anyway, so after he, I signed, I looked at him and said, I don't have any money. I'm broke.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

I need next month's rent. It was two weeks away. And he said, well, Adri, it doesn't work like that. Like we have to submit you and everything.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, it takes time.

[Craig Ferguson]

Listen, I said, I signed with you because you can make things happen. He said, okay. He said, I'm going to give you a tape and you're going to go watch this show and you're going to write a spec script. He said, take a few months. I said, I got two weeks till the first of my. I said, okay, give it to me. I did not have a television set and I didn't have a vcr, so I had to call a friend who's super, let me in to watch this thing. Couldn't get the picture to come up, but I could hear it.

[Joey Goldstein]

What was the show? You were making me wait.

[Craig Ferguson]

Making you wait.

[Joey Goldstein]

Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's what you call dramatic tension, which you clearly are not a master of.

[Joey Goldstein]

Dramatic as well, you know. All right, come on.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay, all right, all right. So anyway, so I can't see it, but I can hear it. It's like a radio play. And I Got all the characters and it was right. Feverishly read and listen to it like three times. I wrote everything down and I got it. Oh, it's a blue collar family. The mother's bitter, the father's kind of put upon two and the kids are pretty hysterical. And I thought one of the kids. That's the only thing I got wrong. I got her name because the mother kept going, be itty. And it was Becky. She was saying Becky, but I heard bitty, bitty. Betty. Betty.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

I left it in there.

[Joey Goldstein]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

So I went home in two days. I wrote this script.

[Joey Goldstein]

I still don't know who the show is.

[Craig Ferguson]

Roseanne. It was the Roseanne pilot.

[Joey Goldstein]

Roseanne.

[Craig Ferguson]

It was the Roseanne pilot, which is how I got to Carsey Horner. So I'm doing this and I thought, I know exactly what to do with these people. She wants to. She. She's fed up. She sends them out to go tubing in a blizzard. The family. Because that's what you do in the Midwest. You tube and you. You get dragged by farm equipment on a tube. It's a lot of fun.

[Joey Goldstein]

I've done it.

[Craig Ferguson]

I've done it too.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

So. So I get everybody out of the house. Ding dong. The doorbell rings and it's a bride. It's in the. She's in the snow and she goes, I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't get married. And the fact is, Roseanne in my episode was thinking of leaving because she couldn't take it anymore. She's about to snap. But then she has to convince the bride to go back to the church and she has to then convince herself to stay married and continue to be a mother of all this.

[Joey Goldstein]

That's a great idea for an episode. Did they make this episode?

[Craig Ferguson]

They never made it. But I have a lifelong friend in Matt Williams who created the show. He read it and he said, I can't steal you. They already got you over in a different World. And a different world was Debbie Allen, who, by the way, signed me into director's guild. Susan Fales Hill.

[Joey Goldstein]

Margie P. So how come you're working on A Different World? How did you get that job?

[Craig Ferguson]

Because I got it before I got this one. So they all read the same script in Hollywood. I'm telling you, within two weeks, I had a pilot deal and I was hired. They sent Susan Fales Hill. We want you on this show. And I really wasn't sure what staffing was like.

[Joey Goldstein]

Could I even do it? It's going to Be replaced by AI Though, all the.

[Craig Ferguson]

That. Well, for five minutes till it doesn't work, and then they leave. People. You watch what happens. You're still gonna need you anyway, so. And they're still gonna need me because we have.

[Joey Goldstein]

Well, they need you. They need you. I don't think they need me.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think they need you. Look at how hilarious you are. And you've maintained your girlish figure and looks.

[Joey Goldstein]

Because I walk. I walk everywhere.

[Craig Ferguson]

Because you walk six and a half miles. Okay, that's like obsessive craziness. But it's great. It's very good for you. My brother does it. He lives in Brooklyn. He walks to Manhattan. Whatever.

[Joey Goldstein]

I walked from the Upper east side to Williamsburg.

[Craig Ferguson]

Unbelievable. And you came across a bridge.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, walked across a bridge.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, my God. Okay, that's Die Hard. Okay, so where were we?

[Joey Goldstein]

You're a different world. And you've written.

[Craig Ferguson]

And then my career takes off in television.

[Joey Goldstein]

So who do you end up writing for?

[Craig Ferguson]

Farrah Fawcett and Ryan o' Neill and Alan Zweibel on Good Sports. Bill Persky on Working It Out. I became the showrunner of a show called City Kids, which was phenomenal.

[Joey Goldstein]

So now you're really coin. I mean, you're making a lot of money now.

[Craig Ferguson]

All you care about is some money.

[Joey Goldstein]

Absolutely.

[Craig Ferguson]

I made more money. You know what I cared about? Because I'm working class. I wanted that. Seven years in the wga, so I got a pension someday.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, I get that.

[Craig Ferguson]

This could head south. This could all go belly up.

[Joey Goldstein]

I understand that.

[Craig Ferguson]

And by the way, and you also, my belief is every seven to 10 years, you gotta blow everything up and reform.

[Joey Goldstein]

Fire everybody. Yeah, that's what I think, too.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, fire. But also fire yourself and start over and say, what do I really want to be doing? Because what show business will do, It'll take you into that. It's like pulling a tractor and making hay. They'll keep you there if you don't go, I don't want to do that anymore. I need to move. That's how I became a novel. And the audiences tell you, I don't want you anymore too. Unless you're Johnny Carson.

[Joey Goldstein]

Audiences do that thing where when you change it, they go, no, don't change it. We like it this way. And you go, yeah, but I can't keep doing. I'm thinking specifically about late Night for me, when I was like, no, I gotta stop and try to persuade you.

[Craig Ferguson]

But you know what I love about your late night story is there's a moral center to it. You began to not be able to cope with the fact that you were employing so many people. It became an albatross to you.

[Joey Goldstein]

I hated it. I loved doing the show, but the business of being in business. Oh, I hate that. I mean, stick me in a tent in Brooklyn, I'm fine. But you put me in a. I.

[Craig Ferguson]

Know you can't be, but that's what makes your life so interesting, is that you know how to blow it up without, you know, having.

[Joey Goldstein]

Without drugs and alcohol.

[Craig Ferguson]

Without drinking.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Without drug taking. I don't even know if you take Advil anymore. I don't know.

[Joey Goldstein]

I take Advil. I take Advil with a minute. What can I do? You gotta take an Advil.

[Craig Ferguson]

I've become obsessed with recovery.

[Joey Goldstein]

You mean 12 step recovery.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes. I'm very interested.

[Joey Goldstein]

I can help you out there. What do you want to know?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I just find it. I'm talking to people lately, like Molly Jong fast and stuff. And I reading her book, and she went into recovery, and her mom said, you don't have a problem. She kept saying to her daughter, you don't have a problem. And Molly said, but my mom had a problem. And now she's dealing with her mom that has dementia. But I'm telling you this because I find it fascinating to be able to stick with it. You know, you. When we were first friends, you ate at my house, and there's alcohol in my house, which made me extremely nervous. And then I started to, like, look at the balsamic vinegar. Is that bad? I didn't know, like, what.

[Joey Goldstein]

That's. Because you're a nice person and you're kind and, you know, and you were not really.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's when you were a vegetarian.

[Joey Goldstein]

Now that means I was a vegan. Yeah. That made you mad.

[Craig Ferguson]

That made me mad because. Because you have to just invent things with vegetables that also.

[Joey Goldstein]

You're an Italian mom.

[Craig Ferguson]

I'm like, the fact that you didn't eat a pork chop or eat meat.

[Joey Goldstein]

I was like, yeah, well, I'm over all that. You know that, right?

[Craig Ferguson]

That's all I know you do you eat meat now? I'm relieved. And now you're back on.

[Joey Goldstein]

Not much, but I'll eat it. You know?

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, but I tried to make things that tasted like meat, you know, like artichokes.

[Joey Goldstein]

We're getting sidetracked here, okay?

[Craig Ferguson]

We're sidetracked.

[Joey Goldstein]

All right. We're getting sidetracked, which is.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joey Goldstein]

Now you're writing for tv. Now I want to get you onto the novels. Because I know that it seems to me a fairly easy transition from writing for TV to making films and stuff like that. That's all part of the same thing. But you start writing novels.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes.

[Joey Goldstein]

And you start writing novels, which I think is interesting because I've only written one. And I wrote one. Cause I was infuriated with. It was such rage and despair about the film business. I thought, I can't work with anyone else. I can't work with anyone. I can't work with one more fucking asshole saying to me, you know what would be great? If he had a girlfriend. And, like, I saw a script that I put together get chipped away. Chipped away drives me. So that's why I wrote a novel. And I want to know why you. Because you still write novels.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's right. And I probably will die writing them. I do want to direct and write more films, and I'm working on that. But why would I be a novelist till the day I die? Now you're getting to the pith, which is what makes this podcast so fabulous. Working for other people, I'm writing their stories. When you're in a comedy room, you're writing. You're delivering characters that have already been created by somebody else. If you're lucky enough to get a pilot, you're creating it. But to get that on the air, I think I can safely tell you I wrote 17 of them, and I didn't get them on the air. And I came squeaky close with two of them. But because I'm from Appalachia, I just banked the money and just went and moved on to the next pilot. Okay. But what turned me to novels was that I had never written the people I wanted to write. All that time in television, I would pretend Bill Cosby was my father. I would pretend that Farrah Fawcett was a woman I tempt with at Marril Lynch. I would pretend that Ryan o' Neill was a lawyer I temped for who was bombastic and Irish. I mean, I did the whole thing, but I'd have to, like, place these people in a context of truth for me. And I would sneak things in, of course, that seemed to be about my heritage, or seemed, but it never really added up. Now I was free. I could create worlds. Now incumbent upon that. I would have to sell it. And that was not the hard part, but the obstacle in my own mental head to get over. So if anybody's listening to this, who can see it on the other side of that hurdle but can't get over it. It. You simply have to remove it and say, no, I'm already there. I'm going to write that this way. And that worked.

[Joey Goldstein]

I think that's right. And I think it's one of the reasons why you and I are such good pals, is because at the core of it, at the core of everything is fuck them if you don't like it. This is what I got to do. I got to do this. I can't not do it. And this is why I don't understand show business as it is now, because everybody is in show business.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, here's your problem. Now we don't have. It'll change. But when a hedge fund owns you and they've never made a show, that's a problem. When we would go to the networks 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago, when you walked in there, those people were trained by somebody to be able to do something. And of course, then we leave the room and make fun of them. You know, when a very prominent producers put a dog in the show, and I thought, what does that solve? Move or do? Okay, whatever. Put the dog in the show. What are we gonna do that. When you don't have that system that trains them, which was the studio system, you know, studio system's very interesting. There must be something rotten and corrupt in there somewhere. Cause it keeps getting bashed, surely. No, no, but it keeps getting bashed and reinvented. Have you seen in our lifetime, we're going through what Clark Gable went through? What is this?

[Joey Goldstein]

Well, no, see, this is what I think it is. I think everybody's in show business. And they're kind of right in the sense that, you know, everybody has their own little channel. Everybody has their own thing. I'm gonna. You know, everyone can tell their truth. Everyone gets their thing to say, Everyone gets their moment, to which, on one hand, is good. But that's not fucking show business. That's just people talking like this. This is just people talking. This is not doing what we do. This is just us talking. And I think this idea that every conversation is a performance, you know, I don't subscribe to it, which is paradoxical, because this is what we're doing right now. But the idea of if everyone is in show business, there is no show business. If everyone's telling a story, if everyone's special, then no one's special.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's your philosophical brain. That's so interesting to me. But I don't think like that. If everybody's in show business, then there's no show Business. I think part of the problem on the planet is that people are not in touch with their creative selves, their creativity. That doesn't mean show business.

[Joey Goldstein]

Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

It doesn't mean show business. A creative ass.

[Joey Goldstein]

You're sounding like a nicer person than me. That's just making me feel uncomfortable.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, I'll go with it. I'm no way a nicer person.

[Joey Goldstein]

Oh, you most certainly are.

[Craig Ferguson]

I'm gonna dispute that. Okay. Yeah. You're a mean softie. You're, as my grandmother used to say, a piece of bread. You're like a piece of bread, you know, but the thing about you is because you really are who you present yourself as. A lot of people aren't, but you have not wavered or changed once since the moment I met you. You're the same guy, which I find fascinating, which must unnerve your wife. But she has my phone number.

[Joey Goldstein]

Very little unnerves my wife.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, I know, I know she's a toughie. But the point I'm making is that things in life change, and you must move with it like a river. You know, part of. Part of our role as parents is to give it up, get out of the way. And we have to do that in our careers, too. We have to go, oh, this is what's happening now. I have to go pitch to that guy. Who is he? Well, he's a very rich man from the Silicon Valley, and he owns the studio now. And you go, but does he know? And those people are interesting because they have one or two movies that are their favorite movies, and they want to recreate the joy they had when they watched that movie. Movie. This is really interesting. It's an interesting time to be doing this. When I'm talking about people's creativity. I wish that there was a mission, that some country had a mission for everybody to write their life story before they die. Even the people in prisons. Everybody. Everybody has to give me a couple pages. Who are you? What did you do here and what was your goal and what didn't happen? What happened now isn't that interesting? If you could tap that creativity, obviously it's being tapped. 3.8 million books were self published last year. It's being tapped.

[Joey Goldstein]

Who's reading these books?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, they tried. This is where you and I step in, because we're salesmen. We could sell. If everything was gone tomorrow, we would sit down and go, okay, I could go door to door and sell seeds. I did it in third grade. I was number one. I could do it again. I could Sell seeds, like to plant gardens, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or whatever it was. Rex Cleaner. I sold in the seventh grade and I wanted to win a bicycle.

[Joey Goldstein]

And that is a name that I would like to have.

[Craig Ferguson]

Rex Cleaner.

[Joey Goldstein]

Rex Cleaner. In fact, from now on, from now on I want you guys to call me Rex Cleaner. And ask me how, ask me how. How are you doing, Rex?

[Craig Ferguson]

How you doing, Rex?

[Joey Goldstein]

Doves and bobs. I'm tops and pops. Rex Cleaner. That's who I am.

[Craig Ferguson]

My God. So anyway, creativity. If we start looking at it like if we start looking at it with a wider lens and say everybody's included, look what happened. Everybody's got a phone and they're constantly filming themselves from flattering angles. From flattering angles. Well, why do an unflattering angle?

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, I agree.

[Craig Ferguson]

I mean you just put that camera on the moon, shoot it, you know, whatever.

[Joey Goldstein]

I used to do that on late night. Nobody really knew. Picked up on that for ages.

[Craig Ferguson]

What did you do?

[Joey Goldstein]

Well, I had the camera set like that the whole time. Cause when I walked out to do the first show in late night, I was looking at the monitor, I went, oh my God, look at my double chin. I hate that. So I kept saying the camera went up and he'd go, this is weird. Like up. And we got to the point where it didn't look like a double chin.

[Craig Ferguson]

That looked good. No, I remember your body was. Yeah. In alignment and it was like. Well, I do that naturally. Like the first thing I did is I check where that was. That should be up about two more feet, but it's okay. But that straight on.

[Joey Goldstein]

Oh, don't do that.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's not good.

[Joey Goldstein]

Don't do it. I love you. Talk to people, my older friends. I'm not going to say who they are.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know who they are.

[Joey Goldstein]

But when you get FaceTime and they just like hold it, what are they doing? You can just see like teeth. What are they doing?

[Craig Ferguson]

And also look like they're, I don't.

[Joey Goldstein]

Know, about to hold it to their ear.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, they don't know what they're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no.

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[Taser Incorporated]

I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.

[Joey Goldstein]

Across the country, cops called this Taser the Revolution.

[Taser Incorporated]

But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.

[Craig Ferguson]

Cops believed everything that Taser told them.

[Taser Incorporated]

From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1 Taser Incorporated.

[Craig Ferguson]

I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really really bad.

[Taser Incorporated]

Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1 Taser incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2 and 3 on May 21 and episodes 4, 5 and 6 on June 4 ad free at Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ebony]

Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebony, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebon and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. On Pretty Private, we'll explore the untold experiences of women of color who faced it all. Childhood trauma, addiction, abuse, incarceration, grief, mental health struggles and more and found the strength to make it to the other side.

[Bridget Todd]

My dad was shot and killed in his house. Yes, he was a drug dealer. Yes, he was a confidential informant. But he wasn't shot on a street corner. He wasn't shot in the middle of a drug deal. He was shot in his house, unarmed.

[Ebony]

Pretty Private isn't just a podcast. It's your personal guide for turning storylines into lifelines. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast Network. Tune in on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Dr. Lea Tritate]

Sometimes it's hard to remember, but going.

[Joey Goldstein]

Through something like that is a traumatic.

[Craig Ferguson]

Experience but it's also not the end of your life.

[Dr. Lea Tritate]

That was my dad reminding me and so many others who need to hear it that our trauma is not our shame to carry and that we have big, bold and beautiful lives to live after what happened to us. I'm your host and co president of this organization, Dr. Lea Tritate. On my new podcast, the Unwanted Sorority, we wade through transformation to peel back healing and reveal what it actually looks like and sounds like. Like in real time. Each week, I sit down with people who've lived through harm, carried silence, and are now reshaping the systems that failed us. We're going to talk about the adultification of black girls mothering as resistance, and the tools we use for healing. The Unwanted Sorority is a safe space, not a quiet space. So let's lock in. We're moving towards liberation together. Listen to the Unwanted Sorority. New episodes every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Craig Ferguson]

I have to say this because this is what I learned when I was very young. I went to a talk Arthur Miller did at the Dramatist Guild.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, he. He could write bas.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay, Arthur Miller, who wrote Death of a Salesman. Handsome guy, tall, slim. He's also a hottie. So I'm in the audience, maybe 100 people there, because when I was young, I went to everything. So he comes out and there's a lady in a funny hat. And I went, oh, no. Because, you know, if you sign books in Manhattan, all the crazies come out and they're just badgering you and screaming at you and throwing shit out of you. But this is at the dramatist school. And the lady got up and he gave his talk, and she says, well, Mr. Miller, it's easy for you to say because you're. I think she was a little drunk because you're successful. And he listened and he said, mama, thank you for your question, but here's what you need to know. In every generation since the beginning of time, very few playwrights are born. But now we have an industry that siphons off the few good ones. Think about this. And commands that everybody be a playwright in order to produce the amount of material. This is the 80s for television to produce the amount of material that needs to serve the billions of people that are watching. Millions and billions of people. He said, but that doesn't mean that suddenly we have a lot more playwrights. We don't. So you're going to have excellence, and then you're going to have everybody else falling in someplace but that has always stuck with me. So if I watch a show on television, I go, playwright or not play. Not a playwright. It's another thing. Movie. Playwright, not playwright. Playwright. So it goes like that. But I think he's right. The ability to dramatize is a very unique talent. The ability to put a story on its feet through words. That's what dramatizing means. Can I get you up there, another actor and you guys do this play, that scene that is. That takes not only a wide lens, but particular lenses to pull off an understanding of every character on an equal basis with the other, to weight it properly. So what Bill Persky taught me was that Bill Persky created that girl Kate. And Alley, he's a great. He's like a mentor of mine. He did Working it out and he said, and I'm going to misquote him, but it's close television. Keep in mind, he started on the Dick Van Dyke Show. I've heard of it. One of the greatest shows ever, ever made. To watch it ever made. He started out on that show. He was trained by Carl Reiner. Okay, so now you know the pedigree. Yeah, that's so then he became a showrunner, a director, and had great success. But he said this to me, here's the problem with tv. The people writing it now watched it and they copy it. They copy it. So the plots that you see these plots that are just. There's not. You try to impose original characters in the old plots or whatever the gig is. And the people hiring you have an idea of what a show should be. And it isn't a new creative idea. It's something that resonated with them back in the day.

[Joey Goldstein]

See, I think that, to extrapolate that though, I think people watch TV with their phone in their hand. And I've heard executives say the phrase, it doesn't have two screens ability. It doesn't have two screen life about scripts where we have to have something like, who was it that really. Robert Siegel, who he hates Emily in Paris. And he was saying that Emily in Paris, he fucking hates it. It's hilarious. And he was saying that that's a two screen show. You can see that. That's the show where people can be on Instagram.

[Craig Ferguson]

There's always been two screen shows. It's just you didn't have a second screen to refer to. You were flipping through a magazine.

[Joey Goldstein]

Well, you didn't make them a purpose though. I mean, you didn't make a movie thinking that people were going to take.

[Craig Ferguson]

You don't think the people making Emily in Paris think they're doing great art. I bet they do.

[Joey Goldstein]

Look, I've never seen Emily and Paris.

[Craig Ferguson]

I haven't either. Let's not pick on it.

[Joey Goldstein]

But.

[Craig Ferguson]

But they think they are.

[Joey Goldstein]

No, I disagree. I disagree. I think they use the word content. They don't use the word art. They use the word content. We have to get more content.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, now you're getting to it. What's the difference between content and art? As a soul, I am not one.

[Joey Goldstein]

No, no, it's not.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, it is.

[Joey Goldstein]

No, I think the difference.

[Craig Ferguson]

What are you talking about? Well, what's the difference then?

[Joey Goldstein]

The difference is between pop music and rock and roll. This is a phrase by Rob Robert Fripp. Right. Who's the guitar player? Robert Fripp? Who played.

[Craig Ferguson]

Who did he play for?

[Joey Goldstein]

He played for everybody. He played for boy. He played Talking Heads. He was the guy that invented this.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fantastic vibrato guitar.

[Joey Goldstein]

Robert Fripp said, I think that's the difference. The difference between rock and roll and pop music is this. In pop music, someone falls in love. In rock and roll, someone gets fucked.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's the difference.

[Joey Goldstein]

And I thought, yeah, I think that is the difference.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's a very good. That's a very good analysis. Yeah. But as the people that write that music, like Bob Gaudio from the Four Seasons, who wrote Short Shorts and his family survived on short shorts for years, he was the first guy to sell the commercials. I told him, I said, I feel.

[Joey Goldstein]

Bad now because Short Shorts is a.

[Craig Ferguson]

Great show because you don't have to learn any words. You wear short shorts. Don't wear short shorts. Wear shorts. Yeah, you could learn it in two seconds. But he was the first guy to sell to the commercials. Now they sell their catalogs and the great songs you're going to hear Born to Run on a car commercial, if you haven't already. All of that is immaterial to what I'm saying, what I'm trying to get at here. In terms of art. Here's the difference. Art is the journey of a soul. AI Is the journey of a robot and a computer and artificial intelligence. And they keep trying to sell it to us. I'm telling you, they keep trying to sell it to us, but it doesn't have a soul. And I listen, I joined the. I want to hear it. Wasn't I supposed to do that movie?

[Joey Goldstein]

No, I'm doing a movie about AI about, like. It's like a documentary. I'm doing it right now about. Because they've invented an AI comedy program program, and we're putting together this AI standard.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I can't wait to see what it is. But what's missing from it that you have to provide?

[Joey Goldstein]

I'm not providing anything for it. I'm very skeptical about the whole thing. I'm like you. I don't feel like it can be done, but there's some guys in Silicon Valley think it can. And we're getting into it a little.

[Craig Ferguson]

Bit because sometimes we make bad movies and bad television shows and write lousy books. And so those people who have the dough. Well, the people that have the dough think, well, if they could do that, I could do this. It looks deceptively easy, but to create a world is not easy.

[Joey Goldstein]

No.

[Craig Ferguson]

And it takes.

[Joey Goldstein]

But it's got to look easy.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's got to look easy. That's the trick. That's the hat trick of the whole thing. But the journey of the soul is what binds us as human beings, not.

[Joey Goldstein]

Which takes us by back to the Catholic plays on the bus, where we have to, you know, what do we know?

[Craig Ferguson]

What do we know about what we do is that our job is to connect to that person. Whoever we decided is in our subconscious imagination or whatever or whoever we see out there. That is our job. And they have to know within two minutes of sitting in that seat why they are there. Now, if you think AI, I don't.

[Joey Goldstein]

Think you get two minutes. I think you get 20 seconds.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, you get 20 seconds now, right? Ruth Goetz would amend that, but she's been dead for 20 years. But my playwriting mentor. But they have to know. You need to dramatize why they're there.

[Joey Goldstein]

I feel like, though, we have to wrap this up, but very quickly.

[Craig Ferguson]

Why I've got out hours to go, miles to go before I go look at Tomas.

[Joey Goldstein]

Tomas has been asleep for two Instagram and stuff.

[Craig Ferguson]

Tomas is like, please wrap this up. It's getting very esoteric, I feel like.

[Joey Goldstein]

Because you and I are both fans of first lines in books. And that does it. That does it. My favorite first line of any book is, it was a bright, cold day in April and the clocks were striking 13. This is the first line of. Of 1984. And I feel like in that first line of it, or it was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, it's a good one.

[Joey Goldstein]

It's like right away you go, shit's happening. Something weird has happened. The clocks are striking 13. What the fuck is going on? It's like, you kick off, and I feel like that's okay. I get that. I don't mind that. But it's nice to have something like that line on its own. Isn't much good unless you got 1984 behind it. And I feel like, you know What? Also, I'm 63 years old now. I mean, it's part of what I have to do is be cranky about new art.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, you were cranky at 22, but let me point this out. Don't try to fob that off on your age. That's your nature that you were born with.

[Joey Goldstein]

Born to crank.

[Craig Ferguson]

Born to Crank would be a great trap.

[Joey Goldstein]

Flag goes, baby, we were born to crank.

[Craig Ferguson]

Poor Bruce Springsteen, he's going through it right now. But anyway, this makes me think of something if. Well, if this AI thing. I'm now on the Author's Guild, and all we do is file lawsuits against it, which is effective. Effective. It's effective. But what I'm learning from other writers is that, hey, we can't be replaced. We can't be, but we can in a poor fashion. So it is incumbent upon us to deliver storytelling that no machine can do. So what does that mean?

[Joey Goldstein]

It means that we're going back to what Arthur Miller said, which is there's only a few playwrights and everybody else's, which is great. Now we're done. We're done with this podcast.

[Craig Ferguson]

You are just so. You really wrap it up so rudely. Until the people watching are like, what an asshole. What is wrong with him?

[Joey Goldstein]

I know.

[Craig Ferguson]

Is there a clock ticking? I can't tell. There's so many animal heads in here.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, they're not real animals.

[Craig Ferguson]

I was looking for a clock.

[Joey Goldstein]

There's not real animals. There's a clock right behind you.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, but that's behind me. I can't turn because I'm on your shelf. You can turn. Oh, I see it. Yeah, that's large. Okay.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah. And it's. And it's facing right. Me.

[Craig Ferguson]

But see, I didn't mean to be rude to my Catholic thing. I can't be rude. I would never. Look, I would just.

[Joey Goldstein]

You called me an asshole, which is fairly.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, I didn't call you when I said behaving like me one, which is different. Did I call you one?

[Joey Goldstein]

You have done. You may not have done it in this podcast. You've certainly in a.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, no, no. I think you know how much.

[Joey Goldstein]

Yeah, and I love you, too. And that is a good place to start. Get out of here.

[Craig Ferguson]

Adventure should never come with a pause button.

[Bridget Todd]

Remember MoviePass? All the movies you wanted for just nine bucks. I'm Bridget Todd, host of There Are no Girls on the Internet. And this season, I'm digging into the tech stories we weren't told, starting with Stacy Spikes, the Black founder of MoviePass who got pushed out of the company he built.

[Craig Ferguson]

Everybody's trying to knock you down, and it's not gonna work, and no one's gonna like it. And then, boom, it's everywhere. And that was that moment.

[Bridget Todd]

Listen to There are no Girls on the Internet, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast, Smokey the Bear.

[Joey Goldstein]

Then you know why Smokey tells you when he sees you passing through. Remember, please be careful.

[Taser Incorporated]

It's the least that you can do.

[Craig Ferguson]

After 80 years of learning his wildfire prevention tips, Smokey Bear lives within us all. Learn [e-mail] and remember, only you can prevent wildfires. Brought to you by the USDA Forest.

[USDA Forest Service]

Service, your state forester, and the AD Council.

[Bridget Todd]

We are telling our scientists today we have disdain for your expertise. And then you have China as an exception, saying, actually, we're going to invest a trillion dollars in new science. You heard that, right. While the US Is slashing science budgets, China is doubling down. This means here in the United States, less innovation, fewer breakthroughs, and falling behind on the global stage.

[Craig Ferguson]

This week on Dope Labs, Chelsea Clinton.

[Bridget Todd]

Breaks down what these cuts really mean.

[Craig Ferguson]

Listen to Dope labs on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Taser Incorporated]

I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season one, Taser Incorporated.

[Craig Ferguson]

I get right back there, and it's bad.

[Taser Incorporated]

Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Craig Ferguson]

This is an iHeart podcast.