Savannah Guthrie (3:18)

That'S just terrifying that it's been seven years.

Craig Ferguson (3:21)

But what's terrifying is you look exactly the same, which makes me think you're probably getting collagen or bad blood injections or something or.

Savannah Guthrie (3:31)

No, I wish. I haven't done anything. I'm gonna try and hold out for as long as possible, but don't do whatever you're doing.

Craig Ferguson (3:37)

It's working. That's what I'm saying. You look great. It's really a thing.

Savannah Guthrie (3:42)

If I could just carry this light around with me wherever I went, that would probably be helpful.

Craig Ferguson (3:47)

Lighting is key. I mean, beyond the age of 35, lighting is key. So when you get to 35, you're going to have to start thinking about all of that. How about things in show business? Are you still in Los Angeles?

Savannah Guthrie (4:00)

I am. I'm hanging on by a thread, though. I feel like, you know, the last four years have been really fucking rough.

Craig Ferguson (4:08)

It's really weird, right? I mean, I don't understand what the fuck is going on with it at all. I've been following this guy on Instagram. Don't know if you know him. I think his handle is producer Patrick.

Savannah Guthrie (4:20)

I've heard. Yeah, I've heard about it.

Craig Ferguson (4:22)

Right. And he's fascinating because he's just like. He stayed up on it all the time. It's like show businesses in freefall, basically. The way that I understand it and the way that I think. Because you're. You're a lot younger than me, obviously, but we're kind of a lot. A lot younger, obviously, but we were running the same time with, like, sitcoms in the 90s and, like, right up through 2015. Ish. Really.

Savannah Guthrie (4:51)

Yeah.

Craig Ferguson (4:52)

And then it's just. It's in freefall. Cause of no one knows what to do. Right. Am I right?

Savannah Guthrie (4:57)

Yes, you're right. I mean, look, I think Covid was one thing, right? And then I think the strike was another. And both strikes, writer strike, actors strike. Right? Like, everybody is scrambling to make up for the lost time. And so I think the lost time and the lack of money and the reality that, like, streaming platforms were not bringing in money, there was too many. There's too many options. So there's definitely. Is this word that everybody keeps using, and I'm sorry to use it, but the whole constricting of the business.

Craig Ferguson (5:37)

I haven't even heard that. What is the constricting thing? Like, everything's getting.

Savannah Guthrie (5:42)

Yeah, everything's small. Everything's getting smaller. So it's why, like, companies are folding under companies. So, like, you have ABC Signature, which is now under Fox. You know, you have. Everything is going back to, like, one place instead of one place having 10 options.

Craig Ferguson (6:01)

Right?

Savannah Guthrie (6:02)

And so with that, you have people getting fired, losing their jobs after 30 years. You have the lack of jobs for actors, writers, directors. Because the one statistic that I heard that made it all make sense to me was at the beginning of this year, like, February, March, normally there was, like, 300 things in production. Okay, 300. There were 50.

Craig Ferguson (6:31)

Geez.

Savannah Guthrie (6:33)

So if you look at that, you go, oh, well, then there's no surprise that all of us are in a free fall and wondering, well, how the fuck do we come back from that? Sorry, pardon my language.

Craig Ferguson (6:47)

No, you can say fuck. In fact, I kind of like what you do. It makes me feel like I'm talking to someone who has an authentic voice and is in no way under the threat from the man I am. I wonder, have you started doing that? Like, what I'm doing now, Like, I'm working for an evil corporation called iHeart on this podcast right now. But, you know, I'll probably get fired from that, or they'll fall apart or something like that. And have you started doing a podcast or something yet? Because everybody has to do that now, apparently.

Savannah Guthrie (7:22)

Well, I'm. So. I had a podcast in 2018, maybe 2019. Look, I don't even remember when the fuck it was, but it was. I had it for, like, a year, and it was. I just. I couldn't take it. It was so much work. And. But it was the kind where we went into a place and we brought people into a studio, and it was a whole setup. It wasn't, you know, like, from a chair in your library. Right. It wasn't.

Craig Ferguson (7:52)

Dare you? How dare you? No, I get it. I mean, it's an interesting thing, though, because it feels to me that the model that's beginning to emerge out of the mist. It reminds me of the late 90s, early 2000s independent film, where you had to go and find the money from. Like, I remember going to the Cannes Film Festival over and over again and dealing with horrible arms dealers on yachts out in the bay, trying to get. Sell them the, you know, the Bratislavin TV rights for another 100 grand so you could finance your movie. And then, you know, and there were. There were three places to shop in town for television. Abc, NBC, and the other one. Yeah, cbs.

Savannah Guthrie (8:41)

Cbs, Yeah.

Craig Ferguson (8:43)

I was there for a long time. I forgot all about them and Fox, and that's it. But I think that. I think it's probably time to start thinking about starting your own studio.

Savannah Guthrie (8:55)

Sure. Well, you know, I played a studio head on television, so that's easy.

Craig Ferguson (8:59)

You were great at it, too.

Savannah Guthrie (9:01)

People just kind of assume that I'm already in that position.

Craig Ferguson (9:04)

Are you? Did I hear writers, they're rebooting Entourage. Are you gonna do it again? Is that a thing or is a rumor?

Savannah Guthrie (9:11)

They have been trying to reboot that show for years, and I'm not quite sure how you do it unless you completely flip the narrative and you place it in today's times and you make Dana Gordon the lead of the show, and you show how women are running the industry and how the men are trying to get back in and become relevant.

Craig Ferguson (9:41)

Is that what's happening?

Savannah Guthrie (9:45)

That's what I'd like to believe is happening. I mean, there's so many more females in charge. And that is true. Studios than ever before.

Craig Ferguson (9:52)

That is true.

Savannah Guthrie (9:53)

Definitely. They were not that many when we were doing Entourage, so. But look, I mean, those characters are iconic, and, you know, there's a whole new Entourage following because of streaming and them putting out all of the seasons, you know, during COVID And so there's a whole new generation of fans, which has been crazy because that show is 20 years old.

Craig Ferguson (10:19)

Shut up. Is it really? Yes.

Savannah Guthrie (10:22)

Fuck, yes.

Craig Ferguson (10:23)

That's really frightening. The two things that age you are other people's kids and other people's TV shows. My God. I know.

Savannah Guthrie (10:33)

And I mean, the show that I. That I. And again, I didn't just do it, but the show unreal that I was on.

Craig Ferguson (10:42)

That was a great show, by the way. I was going to talk about that because that really is a great show.

Savannah Guthrie (10:46)

Well, you're very kind, but it's. That is on Netflix now.

Craig Ferguson (10:51)

Right.

Savannah Guthrie (10:52)

And that show, we premiered that show 10 years ago next year. Wow. And so I'm really excited that's the one thing where I'm like, wow, this is amazing that you can have a show that is now, again, an entire new audience, an entire new fan base watching it. Except I'm constantly reminding people, like, we dropped that 10 years ago, so I don't know how offensive it's going to be today.

Craig Ferguson (11:27)

I have that from late night because I stopped doing late night 10 years ago next month. Stopped doing it 10 years ago next month. And, you know, people like, I have kids coming to the standup shows who are, like, in their early 20s, mid-20s, and they're watching online, they never saw, ever go out, and they're like, how do you get away with saying that? I said, I don't. I said it. I said it 15 years ago. That's how I got away with saying it. I was like. Because the attitudes have changed so much. I mean, Entourage, I think in particular, probably suffers a great deal from that because it was very much in that kind of lad culture, wasn't it? And it kind of, like, the zeitgeist shifted hard in a different direction. It's kind of. It's an odd thing, though, because when I look back at some of this stuff I did in late night, I'm like, I don't know if I would do that now, but there was stuff that even in late night, I would think, I'm not going to do that now. I mean, things change. I think that you can overthink it. It's like when Friends came back on Netflix and people were like, people loved it, but they had this whole kind of problem with certain aspects of it, which I remember people having at the time as well, like, oh, this doesn't make any sense.

Savannah Guthrie (12:57)

I mean, this is the one thing that I'm constantly trying to remember is that it shows that we've progressed. It shows that we've changed, we've grown. And so we cannot fault anybody or anything about something that was okay, you know, 20 years ago, that's not okay. Now let's instead say, oh, this is great. We are. We have come this far and we've grown, and we know now that this is not okay. So now from this point forward, you know, and there's still going to be people that make mistakes today that in 10 years time, we're going to say, oh, we thought that was okay then. Now it's not okay. I mean, it's.

Craig Ferguson (13:40)

It's cold also. It also comes and goes. I mean, it changes the people. This kind of the backlash thing about people saying. Saying, you know, say, you can't have some. You know, it's all too woke and you go, well, it's not, it's not too bad to question yourself about what you do. I think it's. I think it's all right to question yourself and go, is this. I mean, I had this thing. Did you ever meet Peter La Salle, who was my boss in Late Night?

Savannah Guthrie (14:04)

I'm sure I did because I did your show. And so, yeah, I think I did. I think you did, yeah.

Craig Ferguson (14:10)

Peter was. He was like Johnny Carson's producer for 35 years. And he was. And he produced Letterman and stuff. So he was like the guru of late night tv. And whenever I was particularly early on, if I had a kind of a particularly salty joke that I wanted to do on the show, he would say, it's not worth it, it's not worth it. There's always another joke and you're just going to make people mad and you're going to. And I kind of feel that way now. I heard. Are you familiar with a comedian called Anthony Jeselnik?

Savannah Guthrie (14:47)

Yes.

Craig Ferguson (14:48)

Who? I am a big fan of him. He says he does the most awful material, but he does it in a very clever way. And I saw him discussing it and he said, he quoted Warhol as like, art is what you get away with. And he said, if you're not getting away with it, if people are angry at you, then you haven't done it properly. You know, you haven't managed to slip it and you haven't managed to coach it in such a way where you can say something awful or say something regrettable or portray a character who actually talks like that. I mean, you know, the characters that were in Entourage, these guys exist, right?

Savannah Guthrie (15:29)

I know.

Craig Ferguson (15:29)

I mean, they're in Hollywood, Right. They're probably less of them now, but they're. But they were there.

Savannah Guthrie (15:35)

They're still there. Oh, no, they're still there.

Craig Ferguson (15:37)

Yeah. I haven't been in Hollywood in a while.

Savannah Guthrie (15:40)

Yeah.

Craig Ferguson (15:43)

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Craig Ferguson (17:06)

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Constance Zimmer (17:07)

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Craig Ferguson (17:11)

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Craig Ferguson (17:25)

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Savannah Guthrie (19:25)

Yeah. You know, I think this has always been a discussion, especially now, because as actors, we are paid to play characters that aren't. Aren't like us. Right. Unless you are. I mean, you could look at Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman and everyone would say, oh, no. But that's exactly who she's like, she's not a prostitute. But she feels like she has that similar personality. No, it's not. It's like. And so I think, you know, whenever people meet me one, they are always surprised that I'm nice, always surprised that I'm not an evil bitch, because those are the characters I play on television. Or they think that I actually am a studio executive. And so I've always taken it as a huge compliment because it makes me go, oh, well, so you believed me so much that you thought I was that person. That that person exists in real life. And obviously, a lot of characters are based on real people. I mean, my character on Unreal was based on a real person. Right, right. And so it's constantly this. There's a problem now where actors are not allowed to portray anything that they are not.

Craig Ferguson (20:49)

Right. Unless the character is Scottish, then it doesn't matter.

Savannah Guthrie (20:54)

Then they're like, anyone, can you just.

Craig Ferguson (20:58)

Get an old chair, put a bottle of whiskey on? It doesn't matter. It's fine.

Savannah Guthrie (21:01)

Fuck it. You know? And so I think I get it and I understand it, and I think, again, there's a balance, right? There's.

Craig Ferguson (21:14)

Well, maybe. But I also think that it's kind of. It's ridiculous. I mean, because everybody knows, most people, I would say, under the age of 40 years old, probably have some kind of social media presence, right? So they present some fake idea of themselves to the zeitgeist, you know, once a week, twice a week, twice a day, however much they post their content. And, you know, it's like, here's me on the beach or living my best life and all that. Nobody, you know, shows themselves, you know, stubbed my toe, having a horrible time, in a bad mood, just snapped at the lady in the grocery store. Because all of these things are human. I think about the thing with Ellen DeGeneres, who got, like, basically, you know, canceled for not being. Apparently not being as, I don't know, Ellen DeGeneres, but not being as nice a person off camera as she was on camera. And I'm like, well, have you met anyone who works in show business? Because that can happen.

Savannah Guthrie (22:18)

It can happen all the time. I mean, and I know in one of your episodes of your podcast, you were saying you were talking about meeting your heroes or meeting the people that you've looked up to and how sometimes you get disappointed, and that's really tough. And that's happened to all of us. But again, I think it's because entertainers and artists, whether you're a writer, director, actor, anything, everybody is held up to a standard, whether you present as that or not. And so, you know, it's. And I think because of social media, there's another layer that everyone's adding. You know, everyone's adding that, like, my life is amazing and it's. It's tough, man. I can't. The whole social media part of being a person in the public eye is really daunting, and I think it's really hurting a lot of people. And. And. And I also mean, you know, the people who come up in social media, where it's their job.

Craig Ferguson (23:26)

Sure.

Savannah Guthrie (23:26)

You know, to be a social media influencer, it's a lot. It's just a lot that we're all hearing.

Craig Ferguson (23:34)

It's also. It's kind of. It's relentless, it's unrealistic. And also, it removes the role of. Like, when I was doing Late Night, I use this because I had one of the greatest producers that ever worked on television. Right. Was Peter La Salle. And I had so many ideas that he, as a producer, would say, you know, that's maybe not such a great idea. And I didn't do a thing that I thought this will be a thing. And I think that the role of the producer, a lot of time, particularly in the artistic sense, was to perhaps temper the enthusiasm of the talent. So it was palatable rather than just throwing it out there unfiltered. But I feel like, because I wrestle with the social media thing as well, I don't want to do it. I certainly don't want to scroll through other people's stuff. But I feel like I'm duty bound as a member of society and particularly in the business I'm into. Like, people say, you have to contact your fans, and I don't. First of all, the idea of having fans. I think that's. Sports teams have fans. I think, you know, performers have people who enjoy what they do. Maybe Taylor Swift has fans. I get it. But yeah, have you been to see Taylor Swift? You have a daughter, right?

Savannah Guthrie (24:57)

I do. She's 16. But no, we didn't get into the whole Swifty of it all.

Craig Ferguson (25:02)

All right. Just I wonder if.

Savannah Guthrie (25:05)

I mean, I appreciate her. I think that what she is doing for young women. Oh, it's great, is incredible. But we never went to the concerts and we didn't get into the whole bracelet.

Craig Ferguson (25:19)

I never connected with that either. But I will say this, having listened, I mean, she's the real deal. She's Dolly Parton level songwriter. I, I mean, she can really do the job. And I think that, that I kind of love that at least someone who's that talented and clearly that disciplined and clearly works at it and tries and puts the effort in is held up as an example rather than, you know, I don't know, someone who doesn't try or who's just lucky. Because I don't think she's lucky. I think she works.

Savannah Guthrie (25:50)

No. Yeah. Oh, no, she works her ass off. I mean, I think that's obvious. And yeah, it's, it's very impressive, especially when you're constantly reminded at how young she is and how long she's been doing it and she still has an incredible head on her shoulders.

Craig Ferguson (26:07)

So it's very impressive because you know what it's like. I mean, you've seen it, you've had it. I've had it too. It's like you get a bit of fame and it, it's, it's weird what it does to your head. I was surprised how much it fucked with me a little bit because.

Savannah Guthrie (26:21)

How do you. How did it fuck with you? In what way?

Craig Ferguson (26:24)

I felt. I, I think I got paranoid. And I think what it was is not because people were recognizing me all the time. It was because I thought they were recognizing me all the time. So any kind of, like if you make eye contact with someone randomly on public transport or in a coffee shop or in a store and you're like, oh, fuck, they, they know me or they're going to come over that I just made me feel very strange. And I, I found myself walking around wearing a hat and not quite a false beard, but nearly a false beard and a hat and, you know, maybe a hump, you know, just something to, you know, remove any. I mean, it wasn't that bad. It was never that bad because I didn't have that level of fame. But there was a point run about when late night was really pumping. Maybe like 2012, something like that. It was really intense. I did not care for it. And you had, you've had that quite a lot in your career because it comes and goes, right?

Savannah Guthrie (27:27)

It's like, well, look, can you read that? It says, it says, lady, I don't.

Craig Ferguson (27:37)

Know who you are.

Savannah Guthrie (27:40)

It's like a piece of art that my sister got for me because the running joke and my household, people that know me is nobody ever can pinpoint who I am or why they know me. So. And it's everything I ever wanted from my career is I wanted to be a working actor, but I wanted to have my life. And, you know, I was just going to New York the other day and there was a guy behind me and he said, you're that actress, aren't you? And my friend, my friend was with me and she goes, yeah, she's that actress, that one. You know, it's like, that's what I get. And it's a constant, like, why do I know you? I know you, don't I. I know your voice. Wait, what is that show you were on? And I'm like, seriously? I am. Hmm. Well, let's see. You're. This, you're. This is your age bracket. This is the show I think you would watch. And I'm always wrong, by the way, because I always start with Entourage, because Entourage was such a phenomenon.

Craig Ferguson (28:45)

Huge. Yeah.

Savannah Guthrie (28:47)

But, you know, even like the 80 year old woman who I think, like, would watch Boston Legal or Newsroom or House of Cards or whatever, I go through these shows and the woman's like, no, no. And then the last thing I say is, is it Entourage? You know, she's like, yes, that's it. Like, okay, so I've stopped guessing. I've stopped trying to guess.

Craig Ferguson (29:08)

You're very good. I don't do it. Like, if people say to me, are you that guy? I' no, I get that all the time. And I move on.

Savannah Guthrie (29:15)

I used to do that, but I think after like the 500th time, I just. It gets difficult because they're still right here and they're still looking at you, and then they're picking up their phone and they're like, trying, you know, and so it becomes more that I would rather just nip it in the bud and just say, you know what I mean? But so for me, it's. It's never been. I get excited when someone can put two and two together.

Craig Ferguson (29:43)

I think that It's a funny kind of thing for an actor because you're a proper actor. Like, you know, American Academy of Dramatic Art and Plays and proper acting and like a proper actor. And I think fame for actors is kind of especially contemporary. Fame works against you. Like, I was talking to Kevin Bacon a while back, and he was saying that he was doing some show where he worked really hard on it, and the studio were saying, could he live tweet it, what was going out? He said, that's the fucking opposite of what I'm trying to do as an actor. I'm trying to get you to believe that I'm not Kevin Bacon. And at the same time saying, oh, I remember we were filming this day and it was so cold, which takes you out of the thing that you're trying to put yourself into. It's a weird kind of push pull a little bit, because you got to have the social media if you're going to have the job, right?

Savannah Guthrie (30:35)

Yeah.

Craig Ferguson (30:36)

I think it's time for you to. It's really the only thing really you have to do is you have to create your own content. This is what I'm leading up to.

Savannah Guthrie (30:44)

Well, look, and I am. I mean, I have a podcast right now that we're pitching because I have, like, my. My partner who is like my writing partner, my producing partner, my content partner. And she is a woman that I met four years ago during COVID She was the writer, creator of this show, and I was attached as the star. And so we met for the first time over Zoom. And I remember I had to go meet her outside in her backyard because it was Covid and we couldn't be close to each other. And, you know, she was like, I don't think this show's gonna go, but I have four other projects for you. And so she is like, I'm the TV version of her. She is the characters I play on television, and she's 10 years older than me, and she is badass, and I go to her for everything. And so we decided that we wanted to do a podcast together to help get women through midlife, essentially. And we're right now trying to pitch that. But again, podcast community constricting as well. It's so saturated.

Craig Ferguson (32:03)

Yeah, it's too many.

Savannah Guthrie (32:05)

It's so many. And because of what you're saying, everybody's like, I have to create my own content. You know, I've got to. I mean, for me, the biggest problem in the business right now is that women. There's no parts for women. Essentially, 50 to 60. So, like, a woman in her 50s is invisible. Invisible to everyone and anything. You know, we go through an insane hormonal change. We go through perimenopause and menopause, and we're like, what the fuck is going on? And who are we and what are we? And, you know, more women leave the marketplace in their 50s than any age group. And it's insane to think that right now we are in a time where Generation X, right? So anyone 45 to 60 is. Is saying, no, like, not any fucking more. Like, you have some of your favorite actresses that are all in their 50s right now. You have Halle Berry, Naomi Watts. I don't know if Drew is in her 50s. Drew Barry, Marcel Mahayek, Ava Longoria, Tracee Ellis Ross, Gabrielle Union Garcelle.

Craig Ferguson (33:17)

Constance Zimmer.

Savannah Guthrie (33:18)

Constance Zimmer, right. And those are all women that are like, what the fuck? What happened? Like, where are the roles that are representing women in their 50s if they can't be played by women in their 50s? Oh, because there aren't no parts. They skip over. They go from women in their 40s on television and film to women in their 60s. So it's, you know, the content I'm trying to create is trying to make women in their 50s more relevant and represented across all categories, whether that's in film or movies or. Or podcasts, for God's sakes. You know?

Craig Ferguson (33:58)

Yeah, there's too many podcasts. I think I'm probably going to stop doing this one.

Savannah Guthrie (34:02)

Really?

Craig Ferguson (34:03)

Yeah, probably. You know, I'll do it for a little bit longer. But you know me, I'm a quitter. I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I think I'll try something else now.

Savannah Guthrie (34:16)

Well, so what I want to ask you about, though, speaking of quitting, is why you went and tried Scotland, right. For a while, and then. And now you're in New York.

Craig Ferguson (34:27)

Yeah, I'm back in. I'm back in the East Coast. I'm in New England, actually. I'm in New York some of the time, but I. I moved back to New England. I was in Scotland for about, like, just before the pandemic, and I was there all through the pandemic. I was back for about five or five years, I think I was back. And I really liked it. And then I was kind of like, my kids are American, my wife is American. My life is American. I'm an American. I've been an American citizen for a long time as well. And it just. It felt like I was no. At home in a Weird way, it was like I had to go back to America.

Savannah Guthrie (35:03)

Right. But did you find that, like, you liked being in Europe, essentially, like, not being in the States? Like, I feel like that's my goal is to leave. Like, I want to leave la, and I would like to.

Craig Ferguson (35:17)

Well, that I did. What. I would not go back to la. But. But. But I think that what happened is that, you know, it was the weirdest thing. We, Megan and I, my wife and I were watching during the lockdown. We were watching Ozark. Right. And Ozark. This dark, you know, awful things happening in this terrible. But it was set in the heat of the Ozarks, and we were both watching this terribly dark show going, I really want to go home. Which is probably not what, you know, the creators had in mind for the show, but we were like, oh, yeah, this looks much more fun. And. And it kind of. That. And then watching show. Have you watched the. The righteous gemstones? Danny McBride's thing?

Savannah Guthrie (36:07)

Yes.

Craig Ferguson (36:08)

Which. Which is, I think his. I love Danny McBride's work, and I. I think this is his opus. I just. It's such a masterpiece of, you know, of a million different types of comedy, but very American. And I. And I really. It really made me nostalgic for America as well, because people like that only exist in the United States, and I really subscribe to the notion of being amongst them and maybe even one of them, you know, just like.

Savannah Guthrie (36:42)

But you don't find those people in New England, though, do you?

Craig Ferguson (36:46)

Oh, sure you do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're all over.

Savannah Guthrie (36:50)

I mean, I'm sure they're in New York.

Craig Ferguson (36:51)

It's not New York. You find everything. I mean, and I think that it's funny because I think of you in east coast, but, you know. Right. You're from the west coast, right?

Savannah Guthrie (37:00)

I am from the west coast, yeah. But I mean, I'm. I feel like I'm an East Coaster as well. It's just.

Craig Ferguson (37:06)

Yeah, yeah. You. You have an east coast voice.

Savannah Guthrie (37:11)

Yes. You know, you sound like an abrasive.

Craig Ferguson (37:15)

Yeah. And funny and interesting and charming. That's all. All of that, to me is New York City, you know, I mean, it feels like that. So would you think you would move to New York then?

Savannah Guthrie (37:26)

Yeah, I would, definitely. We used to live in New York. We did like, a bicoastal thing for about six years when our daughter was young. And I want to do, like, a little place in New York and then like a house in Europe so that when the weather is bad in New York, it's either Too cold or too hot or whatever. Then we can just go to Europe and be there and just. I don't know. I.

Craig Ferguson (37:53)

Well, if it's for weather, may I suggest Scotland is not the place for you? If it's about, you know. You're from the Pacific Northwest, aren't you? Am I right? Am I. Remember that, right?

Savannah Guthrie (38:04)

Seattle.

Craig Ferguson (38:05)

Right. So you know what it's like to live under dark and rain all the time.

Savannah Guthrie (38:10)

Yeah, I don't want that. I don't want that. Not for me.

Craig Ferguson (38:13)

It's not for me either. And I got sick of that, too. I was like, there's got to be at least one nice day in a summer. There has to be.

Savannah Guthrie (38:22)

Yeah. The gray is too much. I mean, there's a reason why they made those lights. They have those. They're called sad lights. And it's for, like. If you have lava.

Craig Ferguson (38:31)

I know it. I was using it in Scotland. I used to have to go. I would do this thing when I was in Scotland, when I was living there, like in the winter, I would go for a run on a treadmill. I would have a satellite on, and I would put on the TV with a screensaver of, like, Santa Monica or something. And I thought, this is. This is. This is stupid. This is. This is like, there's no need to do this. But, you know, there's lots. I love about it. I'm from there, but I feel I'm American. I'm just. I'm at peace with that, you know, I'm from there, but I'm an American for all the problems that we have, and we have plenty. But I'm part of this, you know, this is my thing.

Savannah Guthrie (39:12)

And you're now on tour as well, right?

Craig Ferguson (39:15)

Yeah, I just. Well, you see, that's my way of fighting what's going on in the industry as well. And I was aware of that when I started doing late night. I hadn't done standup for about 10 years, but when I started doing late night, I thought. Because the deal I made with CBS at the time is they pretty much owned me. You know what these deals are like. I couldn't do any other television. I couldn't do any. Unless I got their permission. But the one thing they didn't have was live stuff. They didn't own me for live stuff. I could go and go back to do stand up in clubs or in theaters. And I wanted to as well, because I got off with the. To be owned by corporations is the most dangerous thing that can happen to a performer. To be owned By CBS or Netflix or whoever's fucking got you in some handcuffed deal saying you're the greatest thing and we're going to take your part of the corporate family and these people will cut your throat and throw you in the east river as fast as any fucking mafioso. And I was aware of that going in and I thought stand up is autonomy. And I'm really glad because it is. And that's why I think that you should, Constance, be working on your standup act. It's time to start doing some open mics.

Savannah Guthrie (40:41)

I mean, I have thought about it. I've thought about it for years and I think I would get in so much trouble because my filter is not good.

Craig Ferguson (40:54)

That trouble. You know, I think what you're describing is a three special deal at Netflix, you don't have to have a filter. The audience is the filter. If they. This whole fucking thing that you have to, you know, watch what you say. Don't fuck that. Let them watch what you say. If someone doesn't like what you say, they don't need to watch it. I think you're a highly entertaining person with a very odd mind and I think I'd love to see you do that stuff. I think it would be an addition to. I was going to say the stand up community, but there's no such thing as a standup community. That's a fucking pack of lies. That's like the cat community. Cats aren't fucking social. And standups that pretend to be social, I think are just lying.

Savannah Guthrie (41:41)

Well, I mean. And also the standup community has changed. I mean, like night and day. Right? I mean, it's. A lot of people are scared, you know, and that's not what standup has been or should be. It is that space where you should be able to say, this is my shit. I'm going to put it out here and you're either going to like it or you're not. But we don't have that anymore because everything's filmed, everything is taken out of context, everything offends someone. Which is, by the way, that hasn't changed in all the other.

Craig Ferguson (42:13)

That's always been the case. So people always get angry at stand. But I think that. I think the idea. Look, I think it's kind of like the way I always felt about show business in general and particularly in Hollywood, which is only dangerous if you take it seriously. It's a stupid job. And for a performer. I'm not talking about people who do actual work, do things, make stuff or design Things I'm talking about people, us who perform. You know, if you're lucky enough to do it and be part of it. The thing that makes it dangerous is the corporations. The thing that makes it dangerous is the subscribing to the values of a faceless group of people that only really care about the bottom line.

Savannah Guthrie (43:07)

Yeah.

Craig Ferguson (43:08)

So, you know, if, for example, I say something that offends the sensibilities of iHeartRadio, who are the company that owns this, you know, podcast, IR doesn't even fucking know my name, fucking know I'm there. But if they in any way think I'm going to damage the corporate brand out the door. And then there'll be that, you know, the cut and paste boilerplate thing that lawyers put together. You know, we, I. You know what they say about everyone when. And it's just, it's that weird thing. I can't remember who said this, but it wasn't. Nobody's out to get you. It's just people are just looking out for themselves. That's the thing. I don't think anyone really wants to destroy you. They just want to raise themselves up right. Or at least not get destroyed themselves.

Savannah Guthrie (43:59)

Well, I mean, this is my problem too. It's like we've lost. The creatives no longer have the loudest voice. It's the. What you're saying the executives and the corporations and the people that aren't the creatives have the louder voice and they are the ones that decide what is entertainment or. And it's hard, it's really hard because I love this business when I feel like I can be creative and I can put a character out into the world that is going to speak to people, that people are going to be able to relate to, not necessarily like or dislike. That's not what I care about. But about being relatable so that people see themselves reflected in entertainment. Right. Because that is how we as a society go. Oh, I'm not alone. Right. Nobody ever wants to feel like they're alone. They're the only person that feels that way, looks that way, talks that way. Right. So if we're creating a business now that feels very like, not. It's not monotonous. It's like. What's the, what's the word?

Craig Ferguson (45:15)

Monopoly?

Savannah Guthrie (45:16)

No, but it's like, it's more like it's safe. Oh, yes, right. It's. What is that? I don't even know what the fucking word is. But it's just for me, I hope that when the business comes back, it goes back to the creative. And, you know, with AI and all this stuff, you know, AI not being able to be creative, it can only make content out of what already exists. But it cannot create original content, right? It cannot create something that has not yet happened. So leave that to the creatives. Let us be the originators. Let us be original. Let us have a voice that you haven't seen 20 times over. Like the reboots, like, constantly remaking the same show that we've already seen. The voices we've already heard that, you know, the. That to me is like, what? We already did that. Like, come on, you know.

Constance Zimmer (46:16)

All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Partisan.

Craig Ferguson (46:25)

Partisan.

Constance Zimmer (46:26)

It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites, too. I just got it for 50 off, so how about a Cosmopolitan or a mistletoe margarita?

Craig Ferguson (46:37)

I'm thirsty. Watch.

Constance Zimmer (46:38)

I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength, and wow, it's beginning to.

Craig Ferguson (46:43)

Feel more seasonal in here already.

Constance Zimmer (46:44)

If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian. Because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.

Craig Ferguson (46:56)

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Savannah Guthrie (47:47)

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the.

Craig Ferguson (47:49)

Founder of Meaningful Beauty.

Savannah Guthrie (47:51)

Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age.

Constance Zimmer (47:57)

Like, why even bother saying that?

Savannah Guthrie (48:00)

Why don't you just say you look.

Constance Zimmer (48:01)

Great at any age?

Savannah Guthrie (48:02)

Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel.

Constance Zimmer (48:08)

Confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful beauty, beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningfulbeauty.com.

Craig Ferguson (48:25)

It's. It's quite interesting because that's a sure sign that the mediocrity is in charge. When they start saying, you know, the.

Savannah Guthrie (48:34)

That was the N word.

Craig Ferguson (48:36)

Mediocrity. Yeah, that was the word. It's funny, though, because there are. Sometimes I see reboots, and I'm delighted to see them. I. I don't know that there's that many. I think a reboot is kind of like, you know, that the night drive to Vegas that you think it should be a great idea. Then you get like an hour in and you're like, this was a really fucking stupid thing to do, and I wish we had stayed at home. And I think that. I think there's a bit of that. You talked about the AI, though, which I find fascinating because it can't create original content, but it can take your image and it can take your image and put it on anything it wants, which I find. I don't want to say. Yeah, alarming. I think I'm alarmed by it. I think that's a kind of sinister thing, that it can make you say things you didn't say.

Savannah Guthrie (49:33)

Yep. Oh, I know. And we've already seen it all. We've seen it everywhere. I mean, Tom Hanks, right, He's been the biggest. The one. I mean, I can't. I just. Again, it's like, don't even get me started about what people think they can get away with. That's my most confusing thing, where I'm like, how did somebody honestly think you could put that out without consent, use this person's face, put words in their mouth, and they would be okay with it. What rock are you living under? This is the shit I don't get at all.

Craig Ferguson (50:09)

Well, it's interesting because I don't think people think beyond that. I mean, I have this theory that no one, Very few people anyway, are the villain of their own story. Everyone's the hero of their own story and consider themselves the hero of their own story and think of themselves in that. And very few people I've met in life. I hope that I'm one of them. I think that I'm one of them where I go, you know what? I was a dick there. And I don't say it because I got caught being a dick. I bust myself on being a fucking dick when I was a dick. And I think it would be nice if that was more popular, that you go, you know what? I'm going to not do that. But I think when it comes to people stealing stuff like that, I don't think they think of. If they take your likeness and they put you in some kind of piece of footage that you don't want to be part of, I don't think they think about you. They're thinking about them. You're just a resource. I mean, it's almost like psychopathic. You know, your image belongs to the Internet or something, right?

Savannah Guthrie (51:21)

Yeah. Well, it's narcissist, right? It's like.

Craig Ferguson (51:23)

I think so. I mean, it's a slightly overused word, I think narcissist. But you're right, I think it is that. I think it is that. That strange kind of, you know, insular thought, or. This belongs to me because I had this thought. And that's not necessarily because.

Savannah Guthrie (51:43)

Because you're a public figure, right? Yeah, yeah, right.

Craig Ferguson (51:48)

Yeah. And I think that that's the idea. I've got a friend, a guy called Dr. Kevin Fitzgerald, and Kevin is a standout comedian, but he's also a large animal vet, and he is an expert on rattlesnakes and polar bears and all sorts of crazy critters. And he's trying to help animals right now. I love this idea. He's part of a group that are lobbying Congress to patent the print of an animal. So, for example, if you wear a leopard print dress, 2% of the price of that dress goes to the preservation of leopards in the wild because it belongs to them. And I think.

Savannah Guthrie (52:36)

But does it have to be. Is it real or is it.

Craig Ferguson (52:39)

Even if it's a print, Just the reproduction. It's the design. The design belongs to the. So it's not fur. It's the. You know, the design of a zebra's skin belongs to the zebra. So you must, you know, if you have zebra skin furniture, which I know you have a great deal of that you had that part of the purchase price of that is for the animal that you ripped off the image of. And I kind of quite like that. And I wonder if there's a. Like, if you take my face and put me in a kind of sexy video, I'm okay with that as long as you pay me. And it's gotta be good as well. It's gotta be, you know, it has to be good. I don't want. I have to look like I'm in shape. I don't want anything, you know.

Savannah Guthrie (53:29)

Well, I mean, I think that we actors get that Right. I mean, don't we get that if they're using our image, we are paid for it. Right. It's not just taken. But I can be wrong.

Craig Ferguson (53:43)

I don't. I think that's right, but I'm not sure. I mean, the imagery, because the gray area is this. If you take. I take a photograph of you, just a photograph of you, I can animate it through AI to make it say things and do things and behave in a way which. This would be the thing. What if the AI photograph of you was a bad actor? That would really piss you off.

Savannah Guthrie (54:10)

That would piss me off, yeah.

Craig Ferguson (54:12)

Right. And that's the thing, because with ChatGPT, I did this thing where I thought this would be a great way to write material quickly. So I said, Write me 15 minutes of stand up comedy in the style of Craig Ferguson and it gave me worst piece of shit. And I thought, I'm a really shug comedian and ChatGPT is the first person that's ever had the guts to tell me or they just, they don't have it. And I, I think that might be. I'm hoping it's the second one. That there's something about. There's a spark of the divine and human creativity that. I don't care who your fucking computer is, I don't think it can do that.

Savannah Guthrie (55:01)

It cannot. It cannot. I mean, that's what we have. That's all we have as our value is that it cannot, it cannot create original creative content. Right? It can't. Like it's, it's.

Craig Ferguson (55:18)

But it can do a reboot.

Savannah Guthrie (55:20)

Yeah, it can do a reboot, exactly. But this is my point. Like, yes, it can create mediocrity, you know, so it's. Everybody loves mediocrity. People don't like to be challenged.

Craig Ferguson (55:33)

Yeah, here's the thing. I think I almost 100% agree with you, but I think, I think not. Everybody loves mediocre.

Savannah Guthrie (55:41)

Okay, 99.8%.

Craig Ferguson (55:45)

Well, fuck those people. Because the people I'm interested in, and this is why I'll never play giant auditoriums, because I'd rather do what I want to do, you know, I'd rather do, you know, but there is, there's a reality to it as well. I mean, you know, I remember people saying to me, you know, why would you do a game show? I'd be like, do you know how much they pay people to do a game show? It's. This is also a job. I have to earn a living as well. And so it's this weird kind of mix. It's like I'm not, you know, I'm not someone who gets a trust fund to, you know, think about what I. Or I'm not independently wealthy or wealthy enough to just think only creatively.

Savannah Guthrie (56:26)

Well, I think, yeah, you know, I'd.

Craig Ferguson (56:28)

Like a new car.

Savannah Guthrie (56:30)

Well, I mean, it's like, I love that. That is what you'd like. I'd like a new car. I'd like a new car. This is the other thing too, right? Like, everybody just assumes that everyone in the business is rich and that everybody. That no one has financial problems and that everybody can decide which job to take or not to take. And for a while, it. And I don't think that's ever going to go away because there are the people that, of course, do exist in that world, but they are only, what, 5% of the business? Maybe 3%, 2%, 1%. I mean, it's like, it's so few of them that exist on that realm. And so I'm always, always surprised when people are like, oh, it's so interesting. You know, you were on four shows last year. And I'm like, yeah, because when people say they would like me to play a part, I say yes, because I'm not in a position to say no, not today. You know, And I think that that is just something that follows us. They just.

Craig Ferguson (57:37)

I know. It's the weird thing I remember, you know, I've said this before, but people saying, you know, they would say, when you do a red carpet thing or something like that, and someone will say, what attracted you to this role? And you're like, yeah, you can't say that, though. You have to say, well, the script. It's always the script and all that. And I go, well, you know, because I'll tell you the truth. Here's what I read of the script. My lines, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. My line, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. My line. I come in, I'll be done by 3:00. I'll take it, you know. And now I imagine a real actor like you probably reads the whole script. But there is an element of, you have to look at the financial realities. It's not a great job, it's not a great part, but it'll be o. And I like the guy who is in charge of props on that show, so it'll be fine. And I think people forget that element too, is like, oh, the guy who does. One of the producers of the show is a friend of mine, so I'll do it even. Although I don't really, you know, that kind of thing too.

Savannah Guthrie (58:36)

Right, right. We all still do favors for people. I mean, you know, you have to. Yeah, you have to. But I think, too, that's the bummer as well, is that the most creatively fulfilling parts and jobs pay the least amount of money.

Craig Ferguson (58:52)

You always. Yeah.

Savannah Guthrie (58:54)

So, you know, because you're doing it for the love of the craft. You're. You aren't doing it for a paycheck. So a lot of times the jobs that are not as fulfilling are for a paycheck to pay your bills. And. And that's, for me, you know, has always been the struggle, because I'd like to stay in this business. I'm very grateful for the work I've done, the people I've worked with. I mean, most of all of my friends I have met through what I've done, essentially. And, you know, but I'm also a little disheartened by it. And so there is this, like, ugh, I'm in my 50s, and do I want to stay being disappointed by it? Do I want to fight for it? And if I want to fight for it, what is it that I want to fight for? Right. Like, better roles for women. Yes, of course. Can I do that? Because those are the people I play, I hope. Because then people look at me already as like, oh, you're the woman who kicks ass and who, you know, tells people like it is. And I'm like, yeah, those are the characters. You know, me doing that as Constance is a little bit tougher because I'm not as confident that I can make a change, but I'm gonna fucking try. I'm definitely gonna try.

Craig Ferguson (60:15)

I wouldn't underestimate yourself there. I think I have a great deal of faith that you'll be able to carve a path through this area of turbulence. I think you'll be all right. This has been. It's been so lovely to catch up with you. I'm so delighted to talk to you and just hear your voice and talk to you again. It's nice. You're such a lovely person. Let. Move east.

Savannah Guthrie (60:45)

I. I want to. We will. We've got two more years. Our daughter is a junior in high.

Craig Ferguson (60:50)

School, and I've been exactly where you are. I know exactly the thing. Yeah.

Savannah Guthrie (60:55)

So I'm gonna let. We'll let her finish high school because she loves it, and. And then we'll go east, hopefully. She. She said to me the other day, she was like, mom, it's not every teenage kid's dream that where they go to college, their parents follow them. I said, that's not my dream either. But we told you, we told you three years ago that we were going to move to New York when you graduate high school. So if you happen to go to school in New York, then you're following us.

Craig Ferguson (61:27)

It's a big fucking city and there's plenty of room for moms and dads and kids of all ages.

Savannah Guthrie (61:35)

Exactly. Exactly.

Craig Ferguson (61:37)

All right. Take care of yourself. It's lovely to talk to you.

Savannah Guthrie (61:39)

Well, thank you. It was so nice to see you, too.

Craig Ferguson (61:42)

I mean, it's lovely to see you. And give my regards to show business.

Savannah Guthrie (61:46)

I will, if they ever call me.

Craig Ferguson (61:50)

See ya.

Savannah Guthrie (61:50)

Goodbye.

Craig Ferguson (61:51)

Bye.

Savannah Guthrie (61:52)

Bye.

Constance Zimmer (62:06)

All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Partisan.

Craig Ferguson (62:15)

Partisan.

Constance Zimmer (62:16)

It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites, too. I just got it for 50 off. So how about a clasmopolitan or a mistletoe margarita?

Craig Ferguson (62:26)

I'm thirsty. Watch.

Constance Zimmer (62:28)

I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow, it's beginning to.

Craig Ferguson (62:32)

Feel more seasonal in here already.

Constance Zimmer (62:34)

If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian, because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.

Craig Ferguson (62:46)

Tis the season to be jollier. Add some holiday flavor to every celebration with the sleek, sophisticated home cocktail maker. Pick up your phone and shake it to get $50 off any cocktail maker. Yes, you heard me. Shake your phone and get $50 off. Don't delay.

Constance Zimmer (63:06)

This podcast is supported by BetterHelp, offering licensed therapists you can connect with via video phone or chat. Here's BetterHelp head of clinical operations, Hes Yu Jo discussing who can benefit from therapy.

Savannah Guthrie (63:21)

I think a lot of people think that you're supposed to be going to therapy once you're, like, having panic attacks. But before you get to that point, I think once you start even noticing that you feel a little bit off and you can't maintain this harmony that you once had in relationships. That could be a sign that maybe you want to go talk to somebody. There's always a benefit in talking to someone because we can all benefit from improved insight about ourselves and who we are and how we behave with other people. So if you're human, that's like a good indicator that you could benefit from talking to somebody.

Constance Zimmer (63:55)

Find out if therapy is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com today. That's betterhelp.com it's beginning to sound a.

Craig Ferguson (64:05)

Lot like the holidays. The Roku Channel, your home for free and premium TV is giving you access to holiday music and genre base stations from iHeart, all for free. Find the soundtrack of the season with channels like iHeart, Christmas and North Pol Radio. The Roku Channel is available on all Roku devices, Web, Amazon, Fire TV, Google TV, Samsung TVs and the Roku mobile app on iOS and Android devices. So stream what you love and turn up the cheer with iheartradio on the Roku Channel. Happy streaming.