Denise Mina

Summary

Joy Podcast Episode Summary: Denise Mina on Finding Happiness Through Writing and Life’s Complexities

Podcast Information:

• Title: Joy, a Podcast
• Host: Craig Ferguson
• Guest: Denise Mina
• Release Date: November 12, 2024

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1. Introduction

In this engaging episode of Joy, host Craig Ferguson sits down with renowned Scottish writer Denise Mina to explore the intricacies of finding joy amidst life's challenges. Their conversation delves into Mina's creative process, the balance between light and dark themes in her work, the societal expectations placed on authors, and personal anecdotes that have shaped their lives.

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2. The Balance of Light and Dark in Writing

Craig Ferguson opens the dialogue by praising Mina's ability to infuse her work with both positivity and darkness. He remarks:

"You are always very positive and cheerful, but some of your work is the darkest I've ever read. Do you get out all your dark shit when you're writing?" ([05:25])

Denise Mina responds by challenging the binary perception of light and dark, emphasizing the complexity and mixture inherent in both life and storytelling:

"We tend to think of light and dark as binaries. Actually, there's a lot more mix. And I see that in your comedy all the time." ([06:30])

This exchange highlights Mina's belief that integrating both elements creates a more authentic and relatable narrative, making the lightness in her stories essential to rendering the darker aspects more bearable.

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3. Interplay Between Darkness and Comedy

The conversation naturally shifts to the relationship between dark themes and humor in their respective fields. Denise Mina draws parallels between crime writing and comedy, suggesting that dark humor can make distressing subjects more approachable:

"There is nothing brighter than standing up in front of an audience full of people and trying to make them laugh." ([09:20])

Craig Ferguson concurs, reflecting on his experiences with stand-up comedy and the cathartic effect of humor in confronting personal and societal issues.

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4. The Social Dynamics of Being an Author

Craig Ferguson probes into the necessity for authors to engage socially, particularly through conventions and book tours, despite being inherently introverted:

"It's part of life now for authors, isn't it, that you have to do all that. You have to be much more social." ([10:31])

Denise Mina candidly shares her discomfort with such interactions, highlighting the disconnect between her real-life persona and her public image:

"I'm just in a room full of women of my age who look a bit like me. That's not who reads my books." ([11:54])

This segment underscores the challenges authors face in bridging the gap between their private selves and their public readership, often leading to a sense of isolation despite outward social engagements.

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5. Historical Fiction vs. Crime Fiction: Market Realities

The discussion turns to the literary market's demands, with Denise Mina expressing her passion for historical fiction while acknowledging its limited commercial viability compared to crime fiction:

"Writing historical fiction is as delicious as writing crime fiction, but there just aren't the sales in it." ([42:13])

Craig Ferguson empathizes, recognizing the tension between creative fulfillment and financial sustainability:

"You forget that people have to make a living, particularly if they're in artistic endeavors." ([42:35])

Denise Mina elaborates on the rewards and challenges of writing within these genres, advocating for crime fiction's depth and its capacity to address significant themes despite its market-driven nature.

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6. Personal Anecdotes: From Glasgow to the Ubiquitous Chip

The hosts reminisce about their shared experiences working at the Ubiquitous Chip, a renowned restaurant in Glasgow. Denise Mina shares humorous and gritty stories from her time there, providing insight into their formative years:

"We had a video camera at the top. And at the end of the night, we'd all stand and watch the video monitor and kill ourselves laughing." ([23:37])

Craig Ferguson adds his own memories, reflecting on the camaraderie and the chaotic environment that fostered their later successes:

"People who work at the Chip were full of pretentious wankers like us who had aspirations." ([22:30])

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7. Addiction, Sobriety, and Personal Growth

A significant portion of the conversation delves into their struggles with addiction and the journey toward sobriety. Denise Mina recounts her battles with substances and the impact on her personal and professional life:

"I couldn't do [performing stand-up] because if the audience hated me, I just don't care. I have died on stage really talking badly." ([09:33])

Craig Ferguson echoes similar sentiments, discussing how overcoming addiction has influenced his career and personal relationships:

"We both ended up where we were because of that influence of that kind of hilarious despair of the mid-80s." ([54:56])

Their openness about these challenges underscores the complex relationship between creativity, personal struggles, and the pursuit of joy.

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8. Upcoming Projects and Travels

The episode also touches on Mina's upcoming projects and her frequent travels. She mentions:

"I'm just finishing a book this week, and then we're going to the QE2 having a festival on it in Los Angeles." ([55:53])

Craig Ferguson shares his own travel plans, inviting Mina to join him in Paris, which highlights the blend of professional commitment and personal camaraderie between the two.

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9. Reflections on the Political Climate

Towards the end of the conversation, Craig Ferguson and Denise Mina discuss their perspectives on the current political climate in the United States. They express skepticism about the effectiveness of politics and frustration with its divisiveness:

"Politicians of this generation are crap at their job because they have a job to do. Do your job." ([63:27])

This segment reflects their broader themes of seeking joy and authenticity in a world marked by conflict and instability.

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10. Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with warm farewells and mutual appreciation for each other's company and creative endeavors. Craig Ferguson expresses gratitude for Mina's friendship and the enriching conversation:

"We've sorted the high stuff, and I feel like I've spent half an hour in your kitchen and I always feel better for that." ([63:35])

Denise Mina reciprocates, emphasizing the value of their relationship amidst their individual pursuits of joy and fulfillment.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Craig Ferguson ([05:25]): "You are always very positive and cheerful, but some of your work is the darkest I've ever read. Do you get out all your dark shit when you're writing?"

• Denise Mina ([06:30]): "We tend to think of light and dark as binaries. Actually, there's a lot more mix."

• Denise Mina ([09:20]): "There is nothing brighter than standing up in front of an audience full of people and trying to make them laugh."

• Denise Mina ([11:54]): "I'm just in a room full of women of my age who look a bit like me. That's not who reads my books."

• Denise Mina ([42:13]): "Writing historical fiction is as delicious as writing crime fiction, but there just aren't the sales in it."

• Denise Mina ([63:27]): "Politicians of this generation are crap at their job because they have a job to do. Do your job."

---

Conclusion

This episode of Joy offers a profound exploration of the delicate dance between darkness and light in both personal lives and creative works. Through candid conversations, Craig Ferguson and Denise Mina shed light on the complexities of finding happiness, the sacrifices of artistic integrity for market demands, and the enduring power of friendship in navigating life's tumultuous journey.

Transcript

[Savannah Guthrie]

All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Partisan Partisan. It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites too. I just got it for 50 off. So how about a Cosmopolitan or a Mistletoe margarita?

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm thirsty.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Watch. I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow.

[Hoda Kotb]

Beginning to feel more seasonal in here already.

[Savannah Guthrie]

If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian, because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.

[Hoda Kotb]

Tis the season to be jollier.

[Cindy Crawford]

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[Craig Ferguson]

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[Denise Mina]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

Hi everyone, it's Savannah Guthrie and Hoda.

[Denise Mina]

Caught me from the Today show. Nobody does the holidays like today. From festive performances and great gift ideas to tips for the perfect holiday feast, join us every morning on NBC and make today your home for the holidays.

[Craig Ferguson]

The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire tour is on sale now. It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid it's still only me, Craig Ferguson on my own, standing on a stage telling comedy words. Come and see me. Buy tickets, bring your loved ones or don't come and see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones. I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but you should at least know it's happening. And it is. The tour kicks off late September and goes through the end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available@the craigfergusonshow.com tour they're available at the craigfergusonshow dot com tour or at your local outlet in your region. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. Ah yes. My guest today is one of my oldest friends. When I say one of my oldest friends, she's younger than me but I've known her for a very long time. She gets very uncomfortable when I say how clever she is, but she's very clever. She's a great writer and she's a great person. And her name is Denise. Mina. Hi. Hello pal.

[Denise Mina]

Hello darling. How are you?

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, I'm okay. How are you doing?

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, I'm not bad at all. Yeah, not bad. I've, I've got massive glasses on. I don't know if you're. I'm just going to be like Deirdre Barlowing it the whole time.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I think for our American listeners we have to explain who Deidre Barlow is before we go any further.

[Denise Mina]

She was a soap star in Britain in the seventies. She was famous for wearing gigantic eye obscuring glasses. So she looked like a serial killer. But she did, she didn't kill anybody. I don't think.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I don't say. I think the show she was on was Coronation Street. Right. And Coronation street is the longest running soap opera I think in the world.

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, I think it is. I think you're right. Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I think that by now they've probably had at least one. My guess is they've had at least one serial killer storyline by now.

[Denise Mina]

No, no, you don't understand. No, you're wrong. You have to stay on brand, you see. So it's like certain magazines will only have people falling over. They won't have, they won't have violence. They won't have. So maybe someone fell over or maybe several people fell over into the cynic of the same person. But I very much doubt they had a serial killer. It's so off brand.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, but see I think that if someone falls over and dies maybe towards the end of a season and that happens a few times, we've got to think we might have a serial killer on our hands today.

[Denise Mina]

A serial toppler that would be pushing people over.

[Craig Ferguson]

Look, I'm not trying to steer your career in any way but I think an idea for a book, next book could be the pushing people over, making it look like they fell serial killer.

[Denise Mina]

That's a few things in real life.

[Craig Ferguson]

There probably has actually one of the things that I really kind Of. Because you and I have known each other since, I think, even before you wrote your first book. Wow. Actually, yeah, that's. Well, so, I mean, there have been times when, you know, I've thought, because I've known you for such a long time that you. I read everything you do because I like it. And it's tricky because sometimes when you have a friend who writes and you're like, oh, yeah, that was good, but it wasn't that good. But I have read everything you've done and I.

[Denise Mina]

Just slide my whole career.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, I didn't slide your whole career. This the opposite of that. What I'm saying is I've read it all and what I was trying to get to is, was that the. You are. I always think of someone who's very positive and cheerful and you kind of. You head towards positivity all the time. And you've always done that in all the time I've known you. And yet some of your work is the darkest I've ever read as part of the reason why I love it so much. And I wonder if. What do you think that is? Do you think you get out all your dark shit when you're writing? Is that what it is?

[Denise Mina]

I don't think so. I think we tend to think of light and dark as binaries. And actually there's a lot more mix. And I see that in your comedy all the time. Like, you.

[Craig Ferguson]

You should slack my entire career.

[Denise Mina]

But things that you find really, really, really funny are very, very dark. Like, I mean, I remember you being unable to stop laughing because you were describing yourself sitting on the end of the bed in your vest and pants having a breakdown.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Denise Mina]

Do you know what I mean? And I think actually, what does, what does, what does lightness. Do you know what I mean? It makes the dark bearable. And actually it's kind of like. It's like only eating salt or only eating meat. I mean, you really want them together. Do you know what I mean? And I think people, people always say that to crime writers. You're also jolly. Do you get all your darkness out in the page and it's like, no, we are really kind of thick fucks.

[Craig Ferguson]

Either that or very well adjusted in the fact that you understand because what you, well, you described there, the idea of being able to keep light and darkness and, you know, and it's all, you know, it's a spectrum or a, or a flavor in a recipe. I think that's a very healthy, well adjusted way of looking at things. But I think there's a couple of times. There's a couple of instances I can't remember. Oh God. There was one of the books. I can't remember the exact book but it was about a horrible killy person that was going into a room to. And he didn't know what he was going to end but he was going to fuck it when he got in there. That was the phrase and said. Do you remember that? That book? That's about as twisted and hard as anything I've ever read. And the knowledge of that. See, I think I try and keep darkness away by what I do. And I think you're quite brave. I think you just like let it roll in.

[Denise Mina]

I don't think you are keeping it. I mean, stand up in front of people.

[Craig Ferguson]

I'm just saying that is what I'm trying.

[Denise Mina]

I don't know. I mean, I think, I think if you really love the world and you really love life and you really love people, you have to be able to see both sides. Do you know what I mean? And everything gets heightened if you go through if you have a very kind of, you know, boring narrative and it's, you know, the stakes are low and do you know what I mean? It's like everything's very heightened if you. I mean that's one of the reasons I love horror so much is because everything's very. Things are funnier, you know. I mean, I don't think you really do you know yourself any favors by trying to sanitize everything. Life isn't vanilla, you know.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I know, I know.

[Denise Mina]

I can't think of anything darker than standing up in front of an audience full of people and try to make them laugh.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, certainly it has, it has. Have you never tried it?

[Denise Mina]

I couldn't do it because if the audience hate me, I just, I don't care. I have died on. I've died really talking oh so badly. I was in front of 500 people. There's a whole lot going on. I gave an after dinner speech and everyone hated me. I mean it was tangible. You could feel the hate. And I insulted everybody. And then I doubled down on it by saying, I don't care what you think. And then I said thank you for giving me this appalling experience to tell on another occasion.

[Craig Ferguson]

That sounds like a lot of stand up comedy performances, particularly in the early years. When you start to love it, when you start to look for that failure, I think that that's what it is. That's when you know you are. I don't know, I Wouldn't give up on your standup career just yet. I think it might be one. But it's part of life now for authors, isn't it, that you have to do all that. You have to be much more social, much more social.

[Denise Mina]

And I've got about two and a quarter hours of social in me, and then I start to actually kind of see things or have to go to the toilet because I'm really introverted. There was a thing, there's a thing at London Book Club, and it was a poster on the back of the wall from the Finnish Book Society, and it was a picture of a woman with her knickers around her ankle sitting on the toilet. And it said, thank God I'm finally alone.

[Craig Ferguson]

I understand it. I understand why is. Why is. What do you think? The. The thing is that people have to have a connection, particularly with crime writers. I think that although I feel like, and I mean this as 100% as a compliment, I feel you've kind of transcended that a wee bit. You've kind of branched out a wee bit from only writing about. You know, you never really only wrote about crime anyway because it was. Always had a psychological and a. And a personal kind of depth to it. It wasn't kind of like just procedural. But with crime writers, if you're perceived to be a crime writer, you have to go to these conventions and people need a connection with you. What do you think that's about?

[Denise Mina]

I have no idea. Because these audiences are not really our readers. It's all women who look a bit like me. So I'm just in a room full of women of my age who look a bit like me. That's not who reads my books. And. And I'm not that interesting on stage. You're listening right now. It's quite banal. Do you know what I mean? I don't have the answers to anything. Yeah, I really don't know what it's about. It's kind of. There's a lot of collectors.

[Craig Ferguson]

There's that. And do you think maybe it's aspirational? If you're talking about. There's a lot of women who look like you in the audience, but they don't buy your book. Do they want to be writing your book? Do you think that's what it is?

[Denise Mina]

There's a lot of questions about how do you. Do you write with a pen or a pencil? Do you. Where'd you get your ideas from? Yeah, you know, all that stuff.

[Craig Ferguson]

Which leads me to my next question.

[Denise Mina]

I remember 100 years ago, you saying to me, where'd you get your ideas for your feminism from? After somebody been murdered?

[Craig Ferguson]

I know I say that.

[Denise Mina]

You did say that. You did say that.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, you're confusing me with somebody else. I feel like I know where you get. I feel you've never been kind of reticent about telling me where you get your ideas for your feminism from. I don't think I need to push you for it. It's funny, though. I mean, it's such a strange thing, though, because I was thinking today, before we started talking about when you and I met, like, which is, you know, it's about 30 something years ago now. Like, it's really a long time.

[Denise Mina]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

And that kind of strange.

[Denise Mina]

We're so old.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, yeah. But we look fantastic, so I think it's okay.

[Denise Mina]

We kept her hair, Craig.

[Craig Ferguson]

We kept her hair. And we both moisturize and I think that's. That's the key.

[Denise Mina]

And we can't take the sound.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I had to move from la. It was too much. I've had. You ever had things zapped off you? I've got age spots I've had to have taken off.

[Denise Mina]

No. From being in la.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah. As well. From driving.

[Denise Mina]

Wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know. You sell like that and your knuckles get all age spots on them.

[Denise Mina]

Wow. I live where the sun don't shine.

[Craig Ferguson]

So you do you live in Glasgow, which I'm always. I've always been very envious that you. I. I like. I love Glasgow, but I always have a complicated relationship with it. You seem to be very at home there. Like, you, you. I mean, I've seen you ride about your bike and you wave to people and you're kind of quite. You say you're not social, but I feel like you're very social in Glasgow. I feel you're very much part of the community.

[Denise Mina]

Well, yeah, I suppose so. I mean, I didn't grow up here, so my dad was an oil engineer and. And I grew up in Paris and Norway and London and Amsterdam because he was a draftsman. So Glasgow, sort of where I chose because I grew up in South London as well. So I feel like you probably feel the way. I feel the way about Glasgow that you do about places that you choose to stay. You know, I mean, it's a different relationship.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's funny because you've got a very Parisian and Norwegian accent that I think is. Do you speak Norwegian?

[Denise Mina]

Java Janahan Snickers.

[Craig Ferguson]

Is that true?

[Denise Mina]

That is true. That's me asking for a snickers I don't snickers.

[Craig Ferguson]

I got. That's the extent of my Norwegian.

[Denise Mina]

But that's as much as you get out, because if you even get on the bus and say in a barn, they say, oh, you English speaker. Because they know your accent's rubbish. And everyone's.

[Craig Ferguson]

Everyone's fluent, you know, I know Mexican people do that to me in Los Angeles. I try and speak Spanish and they just smile indulgently and then just speak English to me, which is kind of embarrassing, but also there's a kindness to it as well. But why did you choose Glasgow then? If you went because your family was from there, is that why?

[Denise Mina]

Well, to be honest, I took a lot of drugs and I kind of blacked out and woke up here. That is essentially what happened. And my mom was here because my parents had just split up and she said, you can sleep on my couch. So it was a very thought out life plan. I mean, I had that. You know.

[Craig Ferguson]

I've taken a lot of drugs and woken up places and thought, I don't want to live here, I want to live somewhere else.

[Denise Mina]

But Glasgow, at that time, it was the 80s, right? So everyone with any ambition left and they all went to where I'd been living because I've been living in South London, which was Thatcher, you know, I mean, it was like on, you know, capitalism on steroids. And I came to Glasgow and it was. There were all these beautiful buildings. You couldn't get anywhere to live in London as well. We were all sporting. And you came to go hasgo and it was like, you know, these. You could get these rooms that were like ballrooms and you could rent them for 20 quid a week. And it was like West Berlin. It was like an abandoned city that nobody wanted to live in. And, you know, there's a lot of freedom in that, you know, And I just completely fell in love with it. And also people were quite kind to each other. You know, they would chat to each other and they would, you know, ask how you were and then they would listen to how you were. I mean, it was just a really old place, you know, Is it still.

[Craig Ferguson]

Does it still have that? Because it's funny, I don't. It's my hometown, but I don't feel that way about it at all. And I mean, it's. Does it still have that?

[Denise Mina]

You think it really has that? But I have to say, you are from Cumbernauld, which is like.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I know I'm from Springboard, but I grew up in Cumbernauld which is there's no. Not good.

[Denise Mina]

No, I'm from. I'm from East Cobra and you'll know very similar. I didn't move back to East Kilbride. I think Heath kbride was the Catholic version of Cumbernauld.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think there are Catholics in Cumbernauld that would be outraged by that statement.

[Denise Mina]

But I think a lot of the Catholics moved to East Kilbride and a lot of. And these are new towns. These are like 70s towns that were built to use the housing shortage and they're quite far away from the city and they're very different than the actual city. The actual city feels very glamorous in comparison, I think.

[Craig Ferguson]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Bartesian Bartesian. It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites too. I just got it for 50 off, so how about a Cosmopolitan or a mistletoe margarita?

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm thirsty.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Watch. I just pop in a capsule. Choose my strength and wow, it's beginning.

[Hoda Kotb]

To feel more seasonal in here already.

[Savannah Guthrie]

If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian, because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.

[Hoda Kotb]

Tis the season to be jollier.

[Cindy Crawford]

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Craig Ferguson]

I always thought that. I always thought like the West End of Glasgow. To me, it still kind of does, actually. When I go there, I feel like it has a kind of. It feels like Paris or the Upper west side of New York or something like that. It's got a sort of glam about it, which is strange, but it's true. And you and I both worked in the Ubiquitous Chip bar as well, which seems to. And Kelly McDonald worked there as well. And I think, I think if you were, if you were an artist of a particular type, you had to spend at least a year working as a waiter in the Ubiquitous Chip.

[Denise Mina]

Everyone I know works in the Chip. Everyone I know works in the Chip. It was amazing for people who don't know that it's a restaurant and it was named after a line in a play about Scottish cuisine. And the line was, you know, over boiled potatoes, ruined vegetables and of course, the ubiquitous Chip. So it's a fine dining restaurant called after that, it's called the Ubiquitous Chip. So it's quite pretentious and it was full of pretentious wankers like us who had aspirations. Do you know what I mean? We had aspirations.

[Craig Ferguson]

But you were sober when you were there, weren't you? I wasn't. I was still drinking when I was Working there because I remember how much I. It was a real illustration because I would work in the bar and I wouldn't be able to drink that much while I was working the bar. And I would see people drink that first and per lager, and it was like people that would come in normal and go fucking crazy after, like four pints. And I kind of think there was some information about me. But this is what you are like, Craig, when you start drinking it. I think it began to kind of sink in a bit because there's a lot of bacchanalian behavior in that. I don't know if there still is, but there certainly was in the. In the 80s. Is there really? Is it still there?

[Denise Mina]

Oh, yeah. It's still mental. And there's a roof garden now where everyone goes up and smokes hash and pretends they're not smoking hash. But there used to be a. A spiral staircase down to the toilets. And we installed a video camera. I'm sure you remember. I'm sure your face remembers it. We had a video camera at the top. And at the end of the night we say, time, gentlemen, please. And the bar would empty. And then we'd all stand and watch the video monitor and kill ourselves laughing.

[Craig Ferguson]

I remember working there, you would get an extra four pounds on your shift. An extra four quid if you cleaned up. If you took the bucket and cleaned up any sick. So if there was any vomit lying around, you would get an extra four quid on top of yourself. I always would do it.

[Denise Mina]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Sometimes it was my sick.

[Denise Mina]

Well, just to give you some idea of the management of that place, they adored you, right, because you weren't even famous when I worked there. I worked there after you. I was not drinking. They hated me. They could never remember. They did not like me. Thought it was a torn face. Bitch. Every time they had a party, they'd give you all presents and everybody would get whiskey and I would get a bottle of blanc de blanc because they couldn't remember that I didn't drink. I mean, it was just like. You just were very suspicious of me.

[Craig Ferguson]

You have just described my exact experience of 23 years in Hollywood.

[Denise Mina]

Oh, really?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Denise Mina]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

I felt like I. Like I was there and they kind of tolerated me. But it was like, no, you are not part of this. We are a different gang to you. And it's. But I wonder if that's. If you choose that a little bit. Cause you and I are quite similar. You and I could be brother and sister, really, I think. And People have said that.

[Denise Mina]

I think we might be some way back, same space.

[Craig Ferguson]

Which is great because I'm glad that we never, like, kissed or anything when we were drinking. That would have been bad.

[Denise Mina]

That would have been bad.

[Craig Ferguson]

Although I would have done it. But I don't think you would have done it. I don't think I remember because you. I didn't even know this till years later that you interviewed me for a boyfriend job. And I failed terribly.

[Denise Mina]

Did I? Yeah, I don't know.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I remember, like when we went to St. Andrews, remember, and we had a drive. We drove up to St. Andrews and walked around the graveyard and I thought we were on a day out. And then you told me when you were on the late night show that you had interviewed me. You may have just been kidding me, though. I think now, as I think about it, I think you were just fucking with me. You said that I was interviewing you for the job of boyfriend, but you just talked about yourself the whole time and I got bored. So that does sound true. That's all I could think about at the time. I mean, I struggle with it now.

[Denise Mina]

But did we go all the way to St. Andrews?

[Craig Ferguson]

I think we did, because I remember specifically it was. We. Remember that big old Mercedes that I had. I looked like I was an African ambassador or something.

[Denise Mina]

That was a lovely car. That is a lovely car.

[Craig Ferguson]

Great car. And we drove up to St. Andrews and we were walking around the graveyard because I think that's. We were both. You don't remember any of this?

[Denise Mina]

I remember being stuck on a wall and thinking, I should have thought this when I got in the wall. I'm freezing on a wall. It's too high.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Denise Mina]

Remember fish and chips? And I remember saying, castle, that's kind of. But I do remember that car. It was lovely.

[Craig Ferguson]

I remember walking around the graveyard and you saying, look at all these poor bastards. They all thought it was so important. And I. And I thought, God, that really stuck with me. It's one of those things because I was still vibrating. You had been. You had cleaned up your life a couple of years ahead of me and I was still vibrating from like coming off the alcohol and drugs and thinking, trying to figure out how you could possibly live a life and be creative and all that old shit that people believe about alcohol and drugs, you know, that. You know, I love the fact that your output, certainly mine, but yours, it seems to be all post sobriety. All your. Like the real surge of. Of what you do is after you go sober.

[Denise Mina]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I Just wasn't capable before. I find it hard enough sober to be honest with you, because it is. Do you know what I mean? You are kind of face to face with your own limitations. And if you're drinking on top of that, you just go out and have an affair. Do you know what? Just find some other way to distract yourself or get involved in a fight.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, yeah, you can do both in the same night. It's funny, though, because I think of you as being someone who is like, your output is prolific and has never. I mean, I know it makes you uncomfortable when I say how much I enjoy your work. And that's pretty much. That's one of the reasons why I bring it up so often, because I enjoy seeing you uncomfortable about it.

[Denise Mina]

I just think you're lying.

[Craig Ferguson]

I just not lying. What else are you going to say?

[Denise Mina]

Right here? I'm right here. What else are you going to say?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I'm not going to say. I remember because. And it's an interesting thing because I had to train myself and stop doing something similar. Like if somebody came to see me in a show and then they came backstage afterwards and they would. If they said something like that was a great show, I would tell them why it wasn't a great show and I would say, no, it wasn't a good one tonight. You should have been here last night or. And I had to stop doing that because you take people's enjoyment away a wee bit from it and. And I wonder. It's quite an interesting thing because with the writing, because I've written it wee bit. But the writing that you do is so I can imagine it like. And maybe I'm wrong, you tell me, but it seems like it would take over every thought process you had. Going to be very kind of insular, and then it belongs to everybody else and they have to tell you what they think about it and how. And they're part of it now, but they weren't really part of it. They just kind of consume it. It's a different. It's a weird thing. I think it must be strange to discuss your work with people who have different opinions about your work than you do.

[Denise Mina]

Do you know, even if it's the same opinion, it is like, I mean, I can say rude words, can't. It is like someone appearing at your house to discuss your masturbatory style. It's kind of like, how the fuck has this anything to do with you?

[Craig Ferguson]

Which leads me to my next question.

[Denise Mina]

No, but you know what I mean, it's like you work on something really intensely for a year and a half, you research it and you go in that world, you create a world and you know all the people in it and you're really, really involved. And then a journalist writes two paragraphs telling you what they think of it and you're kind of like, who the fuck are you to me? I don't know. You fuck off. And then you meet them and they're lovely and you have to say, oh, thanks for the great review, you past remarkable bastards.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know it's a very, it's a conflicting opinion. You know what I hate is the tendency now to the top 10 list of everything. Like so, I mean, it's really bad. I think in the world of books where it's, you know, the best sellers. So if a book sells more than another book, it's a better book than the other book, which I think is beyond fucking ludicrous. But it's with everything, everything has that.

[Denise Mina]

And that's just saying that the market is the measure of everything that like, you must see stand ups who are terrible and they're just doing a small echo of brilliant work and they're copying other people. Sometimes they're lifting jokes and they're storming and everyone thinks they're a genius. And you know, I think there are comedians who. Are they really there for? People who don't have a sense of humor?

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, that's mostly what it is.

[Denise Mina]

But they like laughing do, I mean. Yeah, so they're kind of doing a performance of stuff other people do. And that's the mass market, you know.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right. Does that happen, does that happen in. Well, I guess that does happen in crime books for sure. I've read crime books and I've been like, wait a minute, I, this is, you know, I've come across this style of this, even this story before. Do you get, do you get antsy about, about people nicking your stuff? I know stand ups are paranoid about it all the time.

[Denise Mina]

No, you can't, you'd go mad. You have to. I mean, sometimes I do actually take photographs of massive bestsellers, paragraphs in them and I, and I read them over to give myself a good laugh because it's like if I wrote that, I'd be too embarrassed to go out the house. No, you know, we're trying to do different things. But you must get, you must get like, you know those, those best sell. A lot of those are manipulated. It's about the number they produce. It's about the number, you know, where they buy them. New York Times bestseller. The actual bestseller thing I think is heavily manipulated.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, I know that because I've been on. I've been on the receiving end of it both times. I mean, you know where. When my book wasn't being sold in the right place and when it was.

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, I mean, I see a lot of books on that that you don't see anywhere in anyone's house. No one's reading them. You know what I mean? So you don't want to worry about the market because it's a one to one relationship. If you're writing books, it's you and the reader. And I always kind of imagine they're reading in a really comfy chair and I'm sort of leaning over their shoulder and whispering the story in their ear.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay. That's quite creepy. Especially with some of the stuff that you write that's very bad.

[Denise Mina]

Well, that's what you totally just imagine that.

[Craig Ferguson]

Do you ever get scared when you're writing something scary?

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, I do, yeah. Yeah, I do, yeah. Really scared. And then I think that, I think that's brilliant. I think I might have done something really clever there. And then I go to bed and I get up the next morning and read it and it's usually absolute garbage.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, I, I think that, yeah, it's. Anything written after sundown is. And I've written after sundown is shite.

[Denise Mina]

Really.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. If I write, in fact, I won't. I'll never send a text or an email after it gets dark because I'll probably regret it.

[Denise Mina]

What a madril.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, I never made any claim in the 30 plus years, years I've known you. I've never said at any point I'm a fucking barometer for mental health. I've never, I've never said that. I never said that to anyone. You know, in fact. What's that?

[Denise Mina]

You never text someone to say, are you watching Bake Off? Or.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, no, you, you and Megan do that. You like you, you have that kind of. You talk to each other. Megan, of course, being my wife, you guys talk to each other in a way that I don't. I don't do that. Maybe with Megan, like. Cause I'll text if I'm on the road. I'll talk to her in the texting and stuff like that, but that's about it.

[Denise Mina]

How do you know who to hate on Bake off then? How do you know who's attractive?

[Craig Ferguson]

I can't. I don't hate the Bake off is one of the few things that I can watch without any negative feeling at all other than sadness for the people who are leaving. It's a fucking national treasure, a world treasure. The Great British Bake Off.

[Denise Mina]

I'm worried about the waste. It's so wasteful. They're always saying, I made this cornucopia of shortbread yesterday, and I'm like, well, what happened to that one?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, they give it to the crew. Do you know that? Because I thought about that.

[Denise Mina]

Did you?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. The crew gets it. The people who work on the Bake off, they're all like, you know, 500 pounds.

[Denise Mina]

You'Ve made that so much better for me. I'm delighted.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, no, no, they don't. They don't throw it out. People eat it and stuff like that. Or I think they give it to needy, you know, people in society.

[Denise Mina]

Homeless people that need a cake.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's.

[Denise Mina]

Homeless people that need a gasoline in the shape of Freddie Mercury.

[Craig Ferguson]

They are lovely, though. I think that the idea.

[Denise Mina]

Do you bake? I used to bake, but I'm so compulsive. I would, like, make a tray bake and then I would eat the tray bake, and then I'd be sick and then I'd bake another one.

[Craig Ferguson]

I very much identify with that. But I think because every time, like in the last, I don't know, four or five years of. Or more. Every time I've seen. Most of the time I've seen you is in your kitchen, you know, the par.

[Denise Mina]

The Parliament. The parliament of the House.

[Craig Ferguson]

It really is. I mean, your kitchen in particular. You have a giant teapot and usually good cakes and then, you know, very deep. It's a salon environment. Denise, do you have. Do you have other writers in there for, like, Dorothy Parker type round table?

[Denise Mina]

Well, you know, because, I mean, I'm quite dull because I don't drink. So we do have soup Sunday. So we do have, like, once a year we'll have a lot of writers round and we'll all eat soup and complain about our income and actually, it's weird because you would think that we would be making statements about the nature of life or talking about literature. Mostly what we're talking about is times we made fools of ourselves over the course of the year. So the winning prize this year was Louise Whale. She's a fantastic Scottish writer. He was telling the story about being. She was being translated during a tour of Germany by someone who was also a clown, but in the old tradition.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's awesome. So the clown was doing.

[Denise Mina]

Fantastic but he didn't. He didn't clown up until the very last. And then on the very last event, which was a big deal in Berlin, he said, I want to do my act before you come on and talk about literature. So he clowned up, died because the audience weren't there to see a clown, and then insisted on remaining in his clown outfit to translate what he's talking about.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, geez. That seems way to make it about you. I think if you're the translator, you shouldn't really be trying to make it about, I want to be a clown. I mean, it's not your day, but.

[Denise Mina]

As Louise says, we're all quite mild people who are really up for adventures. You know what I mean? So mostly it's like one of us falling over and someone coming over and kicking in, a dog humping your leg. And then people queue up and buy your book, and the conclusion of it is, oh, do you know what I mean?

[Craig Ferguson]

The clown thing is great, though. Did you ever write about. I feel like clowns are. I'm one of the people that believes that clowns are intrinsically. You know, it's an evil thing. It's a way to hide, maybe even stand up. Do you think. Have you written yet, the serial killer clown book, or are you working on it right now?

[Denise Mina]

I'm working on it right now. Obviously, this is my next pitch. No, no.

[Craig Ferguson]

Are you. Because I really like the book you wrote about Mary Queen of Scots. Pal. Resil. Right.

[Denise Mina]

Brazil.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, Brazil, Yeah. And that was. I really love that. And you actually turned a corner for me because through that. Because it was your. As far as I know, that was your first historical fiction. The Long Drop was sort of set in a period in time, but that was the 1960s, so it's kind of, you know, sort of in living memory sort of thing. But Rizzio was married Queen of Scots, and because I loved that so much, you know, what I started doing is reading Gore Vidal's historical novels. That's fantastic.

[Denise Mina]

He's such a great writer, though. He's so cool.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, my God. Great stylist. Yeah. I mean, amazing. I'm reading right now Creation. Have you read Creation?

[Denise Mina]

No.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's set during the Persian Greek Wars, 500 years bc it's fucking amazing, Dan. I mean, because you're right, it's not in it. You're not in it in the sense of, like the other Berlin girl in a. I mean, it's really. It feels. I mean, there's a bit of that, but it's more kind of it's so vivid and contemporary that you really believe the people. And that's why I wanted. That's why I wanted to. Because I feel like it's part of my job as your friend to push you and annoy you in directions so that you actually think about doing work that I've enjoyed before. And I think that I'd like to push you into more historical work because you have that. Excuse me, you have that gift of making people who have been dead for hundreds and hundreds of years like they're in the next room with a fucking iPhone. And that's great. That's a rare talent and you should do more of it.

[Denise Mina]

Okay, that's great. That's a top tip.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right? Good. So that's really. And also put a clown in.

[Denise Mina]

Shall I tell you the truth about that? Tell you the truth about the.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right, yeah.

[Denise Mina]

You can't really make a living doing that. Right. So publishers and readers who read crime fiction, we are really greedy readers. Right. So that's a living. Okay, so. But writing kind of, you know, very formed historical fiction. I wrote a book called Three Fires, which was about Savonarola in Florence. Those books are really precious and I really love doing them, but you can't make a living doing that. So if you want to make a living and actually you want to talk about big themes, the vehicle for that is crime fiction. And I think crime fiction, because it's so familiar, we take it so for granted. But actually there is. It is a very, very, very difficult thing to do. So for example, what I'm writing at the moment is a book about a forensic scientist who discovers that her discipline is built up and which is quite. This is happening. I mean, science changes all the time. But what we're discovering now is that law is static. Science changes. And you couldn't do that in any other context. You know what I mean?

[Craig Ferguson]

You're right.

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, but I mean, I love doing. I mean, for me, writing historical fiction or historical non fiction fiction is as. Just as delicious as writing crime fiction, but there just aren't the sales in it. You might get one big book, but you don't get like a readership or a dialogue.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right, I get it.

[Denise Mina]

Do you see what I'm saying?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I do. And I think it's an interesting thing because I think that. And I'm certainly guilty of it right now in this conversation. You forget that people have to make a living, particularly if they're in artistic endeavors. You forget about that. There are bills to pay. It's a Job as well as a job.

[Denise Mina]

That's your life. It's your life. And you know, we, I think because of Byron, if you. I read a brilliant biography of Byron and he came from money and refused to take money from his books being published. And that is the model. We all act as if no one's from a blue collar background. We've all got a trust fund, as you and I both have. Nature scum.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Denise Mina]

Big, big old Irish face. Obviously we don't come from money. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I think most people. You know what most people.

[Craig Ferguson]

Because I remember even like when I was a kid, people saying, you know, like, you would get asked in interviews, why did you take the part? And I would always like, make up things like, oh, I really like the script. I never read the fucking script. I read my lines. I learned how much I would have to do. Because what you're really doing is money is to make a living. Yeah, it's the. But you. Your degree is in criminal law though, isn't it?

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, it's criminal law and forensic. So I did forensic science as honors. Yeah. And I won the prize, actually. I won the Gilbert fort. Actually. The door was knocked after I graduated and it was the post day and I thought we were getting evicted from that dirty flat I used to live in.

[Craig Ferguson]

I want to talk to you about the sleepy chair in that flat because a lot of people don't know about the sleepy chair. And I think, I think the statute of limitations is up. You can talk about that flat. But tell me what happened. The door. The door get knocked and what?

[Denise Mina]

The door get knocked and it was a. It was a. I had to sign for a parcel. And it was. I'd won the prize for forensic science, the Gilbert Forbes gold medal. And I was like, they'd forgotten to give it to me at graduation. So I still have it, actually. I've got it in my medicine cabinet.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, that's. But that's fabulous. Congratulations. I didn't know you'd won that prize. And I feel like I believe I.

[Denise Mina]

Winked the wrong eye there.

[Craig Ferguson]

A wink and a salute is always a way of proving you're cooler than anyone else in the room.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Cindy Crawford]

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[Craig Ferguson]

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[Denise Mina]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Denise Mina]

I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that?

[Savannah Guthrie]

Why don't you just say you look great at any age, Every age.

[Denise Mina]

That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Craig Ferguson]

But let's talk about the sleepy chair in your flat because I think it's a story that. Have you written that in a book yet?

[Denise Mina]

No, I haven't. I've only just told you.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh really? I think it's such a great thing. So there was a chair in your.

[Denise Mina]

Flat and I was so I was living in a flat that was basically falling apart and you were up in it and it was, we were so poor. It was me and like four guys, we were so poor. We had done some decoration that we used knitting patterns for in the shape of a cross. Do you remember that? In the toilet. But anyway, it was, you know, we were, we were all, I think we were all like kind of depressed and we were kind of like watching TV and, you know, we had this chair and we called it the sleepy chair because every time anyone sat in it, they fell asleep. And we were like, yeah, that's a sleepy chair. And don't sit in the sleepy chair. And. And then my partner and I bought that flat, did it up. And when they. When they came up to look at it, the place where the sleeping chair was, they discovered there was a massive gas leak.

[Craig Ferguson]

Just so lucky nobody died in that chair. Oh, my God.

[Denise Mina]

The whole thing could have blown up because I know we didn't have any heating in Scotland. So what we were doing was we were taking. We thought we were being very modern. And we were taking the doors off the oven and just lighting it into the room. And we were warming ourselves right next to the sleepy chair. Smoking, of course. We were all smoking.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I miss smoking. I really do. I don't miss alcohol at all and I don't miss drugs. Well, maybe drugs a little bit, but smoking, Oh, I miss it every day.

[Denise Mina]

Every day. At some point, I think I'd love a cigarette right now.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, it's the weirdest island. So how long since you smoked a cigarette?

[Denise Mina]

Oh, decades.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, me too.

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, but I'm still. I'm still on the patches. Still got your patch on. Yeah, still messing about, trying to find a way to keep nicotine. I actually got so addicted to nicotine chewing gum. I ended up buying out of date nicotine chewing gum from a dodgy chemist because it was. And I was using like three times as much as you're legally supposed to.

[Craig Ferguson]

But. But that's okay because it's probably. If it's out of date, it's half life is diminished, which means that you're probably just taking the regular amount. You and I should never enable each other. I feel like that's a terrible idea.

[Denise Mina]

It's like Cheers and then two minutes later we're robbing a post office. But I was on. I was telling somebody once about being on this TV show and I said, she wasn't very nice to me. It was a producer, it was a live TV show. It was going out at 11 o'clock on a Friday. And then I sort of told the story and I sort of realized that I was really, really at fault because I've been on with this Icelandic band and they were very clearly fans of substances. So they sort of said, do you want some of this? Do you want some of that? And then they said, does anyone want some snuff? And I roller dex through what I was allowed. And I was like, I'm allowed. Snuff. Give me too much. Give me so much that I'm vomiting at the side of the sound stage. Intubation two minutes before we go out live.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's no reason to be rude to someone.

[Denise Mina]

I made it.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. Oh, Jesus. What is snuff? Tobacco. I don't think I've ever had snuff.

[Denise Mina]

Don't take snuff.

[Craig Ferguson]

I'm not going there.

[Denise Mina]

Number one, don't take snuff. It's very difficult to get hold of. And it makes your hair fall out. It makes your hair thin. It makes you put on a lot of weight as well.

[Craig Ferguson]

That does not sound like anything I'm interested in.

[Denise Mina]

You wouldn't like that.

[Craig Ferguson]

No. I'm looking for a cross between Rogaine and cocaine. That's what I want. That's the opposite of snuff. It's funny, though. Do you still get snobby about drugs? Because I do. Like when people are. Because everybody smokes weed on the street in America now, and everybody's everywhere. The smell of weed is everywhere in New York City. And I think, you know, get yourself a proper drug. I find myself thinking, I know it's very pathological. I'm like, that's not a proper drug. Take a proper drug, Cocaine or heroin or something. But I suppose that's not a healthy attitude.

[Denise Mina]

It's not a healthy attitude.

[Craig Ferguson]

I wear that.

[Denise Mina]

Do you know, we're so vanilla. We don't really know what drugs are now. Drugs are very different either.

[Craig Ferguson]

Really bad ones.

[Denise Mina]

You know what I mean? We would not be alive now. All these young ones. Do you know what I mean? I mean, it's so. It's. It's a serious business the minute you start taking it. We thought it was serious, but it was a moral panic. It wasn't really a physically dangerous thing. Every time we took something and it is now, we just.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's true with the fentanyl thing. You could just. Like the first time. Done.

[Denise Mina]

We kids, you know, so we got off lucky. I mean, I think the reason we're both here is probably because, you know, because, I mean, who. At a party back in our day, somebody handed you something and you took it. You didn't know what it was.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know. You know, I mean, it terrifies me now because we both, you know, have young adults and it's. It's terrifying. It's terrifying that it's out there like that. And I think the. The drugs are so good now as well. Like in Terms of, like, potency. And, you know, like, people will say things like strains of marijuana. Like, so that doesn't make any sense to me. You know, it's like, you know, they'll say, because I remember, like, the. When I took marijuana, hash was hash, marijuana was my. Grass was grass, hash was hash. That was it. And I remember once having my. One of my few homosexual encounters when I was a young man. And I said to a gay friend later, it's not really for me. And he said, it was probably the wrong one. And I said, no, I don't think there are strains sufficient. I tried it and it's not for me. But hash now, there are so many different strains of it that the people will say, oh, because I got psychotic from marijuana like crazy, really. But apparently that's. Certain strains do that to people and other strains don't. It's too late for me now and I'm glad of it. But gone are the days.

[Denise Mina]

Gone are the days of, you know, going up to the Trossachs and sitting, looking over the city and taking what turned out to be half an apron. You'd say 20 quid for, you know, again.

[Craig Ferguson]

Do you remember Dodo tablets? Do you ever take Dodo tablets? No. We used to take Dodo tablets where I think were a bronchial thing. They were in Scotland. There was some kind of bronchial thing. But if you took Dodo tablets and drank cheap wine and then sat on the train in Springboard, the vibrations felt really fabulous.

[Denise Mina]

That's just doctor to death.

[Craig Ferguson]

I mean, it was such a mess. But it's funny, I think of, like, those days because you and I never really. We never crossed paths until we got sober. But the darkness that you described, the kind of comic darkness of drinking and using in those times, I think we both ended up at where we were because of that influence of that kind of hilarious despair of the kind of the mid-80s. If you were in Scotland, it was terrible, but awesome. Yeah.

[Denise Mina]

I mean, it's awesome because it's past.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah.

[Denise Mina]

Because it was grim and we were both very depressed. Let's remember that. Is that.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. No, it was terrible.

[Denise Mina]

I'm sure. I'm sure there were people. I mean, you know, young people now dress as if they're in the 80s sometimes. And I get gives. You know, it gives me the heebie jeebies. Pastel pink, lemon yellow. If I see someone in lemon yellow, I feel like I'm about to get the sack for being cheeky, you know?

[Craig Ferguson]

Exactly.

[Denise Mina]

Wedge. A wedge cut. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Our shoulder pads. Back. Shoulder pads aren't back, are they?

[Denise Mina]

Shoulder pads. They came back very briefly here about a year ago. I quite like her shoulder pads.

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't mind that. I've reached a point in my life now where it's actually. I'm kind of thinking about putting them in my shirt like Larry King used to do. So what's happening with you now, then? What are you doing? Are you off on. Because you still travel so much.

[Denise Mina]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

You still do that?

[Denise Mina]

I'm just about to. I'm just finishing a book this week, and then we're going to the QE2. Are having a festival on it in Los Angeles. No, no. We're going from Southampton to New York. We get. Get it free. We give a couple of workshops. And I'm saying we. I'm not using the royal we. It's like me and Christopher and Mark Bellingham. Me and Stevie are getting the.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, right.

[Denise Mina]

And. And then they fly you back business class. So we're staying. We're gonna do that. That'll be lovely. And then. Yeah, so we're just traveling around a lot.

[Craig Ferguson]

Wait, wait. So you cross the Atlantic on the QE2?

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, in November.

[Craig Ferguson]

And where do you end up?

[Denise Mina]

New York.

[Craig Ferguson]

When?

[Denise Mina]

On the 23rd of November. A year round.

[Craig Ferguson]

I fly from. I'm going from Atlanta to Paris on the 24th.

[Denise Mina]

What are you doing to Paris?

[Craig Ferguson]

I'm meeting Megan because I'm doing. I'm doing standups. Do you want to come? You and Stevie come to Paris and we'll go out and eat?

[Denise Mina]

Well, we're staying in the Chelsea for a few nights, and then we're going to fly back via Iceland. And then I think we're all going to go to Munich.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. Have you been here? Iceland.

[Denise Mina]

Oh, it's great.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's good, isn't it?

[Denise Mina]

It's great. Yeah, it's great. But like, all Scandinavian countries, ultimately really boring.

[Craig Ferguson]

How dare you?

[Denise Mina]

I like messy places. I like Nepal and, you know, Milwaukee and places that have got a bit of mess about them.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I've never. I've never been in Nepal, but I've been in Milwaukee a couple of times and. But now if it's like. If Nepal's like Milwaukee, I've. I don't need to go.

[Denise Mina]

It's not like. No, it's not like it. There's a lot more decapitated animals in the street. From my experience.

[Craig Ferguson]

I've never seen that in Milwaukee. I'm not saying it's not there, but I haven't seen it.

[Denise Mina]

I'm sure it is.

[Craig Ferguson]

Are you following. Are you following the political climate in the United States right now?

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, I do believe there is a.

[Craig Ferguson]

An election, actually. By the time this goes out, it'll have gone on.

[Denise Mina]

Oh, really? Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think. Yeah. So.

[Denise Mina]

And how are you feeling about that? Because you're actually there.

[Craig Ferguson]

I kind of. It's funny, I, I, I steer away from publicly. I mean, you. You know how I feel about politics and stuff, but I steer away from publicly discussing it because it's such a divisive tool. You know, I mean, it seems like the only thing that anyone agrees on is that you can use someone's political opinion to shame them. But I think that what I've taken some solace from, funnily enough, it goes back around to that Resio thing of yours, because I get into these historical novels of Gore Vidal. I read the narratives of empire. You wrote seven historical books about the United States from 1776 to 1954. And what was fascinating about it is that there's nothing fucking new about this. Yeah, nothing. I think that America, to me, is one of the things about America. It is a national expression of Jungian duality. It's always been at war with itself. It's always had this, you know, push, pull, and I think it's. I think it's no different, but it's, It's. It's kind of frightening, though. It gets your attention because there's a lot of hyperbole and fear, and you don't know how much of it is real, you know?

[Denise Mina]

Yeah. I mean, I think if you look at it in a historical context, very importantly, people are much easier to control if they're very frightened.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes.

[Denise Mina]

And that's both sides of doing that, hyping people up.

[Craig Ferguson]

Totally.

[Denise Mina]

And I'm obsessed with the Civil War. Are you interested in the Civil War?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes, I am, actually. I became fascinated by it through the. I mean, I'm actually. Right now, I'm still kind of stuck on the Revolutionary War, the kind of. The first one, but. Yeah, but have you been around the Civil War battle sites as well?

[Denise Mina]

No, but me and my cousin are going to do it. Me and my cousin are out.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's amazing.

[Denise Mina]

It's a weird thing that you get so interested in the Civil war at age 52 and a half, I think. Yeah, that's right, isn't it? But you can see the whole world in that. You can see the whole, you know, the impossibility of victory and suddenly Victory because a drunk guy just set fire to everything because the drunk guy starts a fight and, you know, and how spoiled that became afterwards. And it's funny because I was trying to write something for an Alistair Grace and about contraband camp. Do you know what contraband camp is?

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't know what that is.

[Denise Mina]

Slaves that ran away during the Civil War were called contraband because they were a contraband of war. So they sent up camps everywhere. And all these incredibly well meaning white women like me went to work in contraband camps to teach people to read. And they had all these really sort of idealistic ideas about how they were going to save everybody. And then they got there and they just realized how grim it was and how it was systematic and, you know, it didn't matter what people saved or if they got jobs or anything like that. They just looked all the whole system was up against them. But I mean, so. But I thought, you know, I can't even identify the language to use about people of color in that context or. I know, I don't even know how you could speak about that. But. Yeah, but, yeah, but I mean, there's nothing new and you know, just be kind to the people you meet, even if you don't agree with them. I think there's maybe like 3 or 4% of people who really are trouble and mental and, you know, really do want war. And the rest of us are just trying to look after our mum and keep the house tidy.

[Craig Ferguson]

It seems to be my experience in the world because I go to, like, I do stand up in, you know, very different, you know, kind of political environments in the United States, like geographically and the, you know, my rule and my deal with the audience that I've had since about 2016 is for the hour and a half I'm on stage. We're going to forget about that. I'm going to do something else. So all the shit that you're angry about, I'll still be there when you leave the theater. But we're going to take a break. I need a fucking break. And you know, and so I'm not going to do it because I'm even at the stage now where I'm sick of the people I agree with. I'm like, you know, when they're talking, I'm like, fucking shut up. You know, I mean, even if I agree with what they're saying, I'm like, for fuck's sake. And it is an odd, it's an odd time, but when is it a fucking odd time?

[Denise Mina]

No, but I have to say, politicians of this generation are crap at their job because they have a job to do. And your job is to run things. Shut up. Stay out of our face and let us make films, write books, make. Why are we talking about you doing your job all the time? Do your job.

[Craig Ferguson]

I know, I know.

[Denise Mina]

You know what I mean?

[Craig Ferguson]

I. I feel the same way. It's like, shut the up and get the bills paid, keep the lights on.

[Denise Mina]

You know, you're an administrator. Shut your nuts and do your job.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, we got high sorted and I feel like I've spent half an hour in your kitchen and I always feel the better for that.

[Denise Mina]

Well, it's lovely to see you.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's lovely to see you too.

[Denise Mina]

Looking so healthy.

[Craig Ferguson]

Thanks very much. You've been moisturized. And you look amazing, by the way. Are you using collagen or something? You look fabulous.

[Denise Mina]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Are you really?

[Denise Mina]

This is actually the back of my head. I just shaved my head and stirred.

[Craig Ferguson]

All right, it's lovely to see. Give my best to Stevie and Wayne and I'll. Megan, I know, wants to talk to you, but she cannot do it in the podcast, so I think she's.

[Denise Mina]

Tell her to give me a ring. Well, maybe see you over Christmas, pals. That'd be lovely.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, definitely. All right.

[Denise Mina]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

All right. Have a lovely time on the boat. I'm sorry. I'm going to miss you in New York.

[Denise Mina]

I think we might be just be being sick all the time.

[Craig Ferguson]

All right, it's lovely to see you. Take care.

[Denise Mina]

Okay, Bye. Bye.

[Craig Ferguson]

Bye. Bye, bye.

[Savannah Guthrie]

All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Partisan.

[Craig Ferguson]

Partisan.

[Savannah Guthrie]

It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites, too. I just got it for 50 off, so how about a Cosmopolitan or a Mistletoe margarita?

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm thirsty.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Cindy Crawford]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Hes Yu Jo]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Craig Ferguson]

Lot like the holidays. The Roku Channel, your home for free and premium TV is giving you access to holiday music and genre base stations from iHeart, all for free. Find the soundtrack of the season with channels like iHeart, Christmas and North Pol Radio. The Roku Channel is available on all Roku devices, Web, Amazon, Fire TV, Google TV, sample TVs and the Roku mobile app on iOS and Android devices. So stream what you love and turn up the cheer with iheartradio on the Roku Channel. Happy streaming.