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- [00:01]
Jason Alexander
I'm Jason Alexander.
- [00:02]
Peter Tilden
And I'm Peter Tilden.
- [00:03]
Jason Alexander
And together, our mission on the really.
- [00:06]
Peter Tilden
Know really podcast is to get the.
- [00:07]
Jason Alexander
True answers to life's baffling questions, like.
- [00:10]
Peter Tilden
Why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer.
- [00:16]
Jason Alexander
Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win.
- [00:19]
Peter Tilden
$500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign. Jason Bobblehead, the Really no really podcast.
- [00:25]
Jason Alexander
Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:30]
Craig Ferguson
Hello, my dears. The Joy podcast will be taking the holidays off. I hope you can, too, and have a lovely time however you like to spend it and with whomever you like to spend it with. We'll be back on January 14th with the lovely Lisa Loeb. That's more alliteration than I thought I was going to have when I started talking today. But there you are, the lovely Lisa Loeb on the 14th of January. And have a lovely holiday time, my friends. Be careful. Stay safe. See you soon. My name is Craig Ferguson. This podcast is called Joy. It's not rocket science. I talk to people I like about their pursuit of happiness. Here's Kathie Lee Gifford, an American legend. She loves Jesus, tv, country music. Enjoy. I'm so happy to see you.
- [01:30]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I went to bed last night with the biggest smile of my face. I said. I said I get to see my. My Howard. Yeah. My Craig tomorrow.
- [01:37]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, we're ready to go whenever. Yeah, yeah, we would just go. Can I be a little more. A little louder in here? Because I'm. I'm going.
- [01:43]
Kathie Lee Gifford
He always. He's such an egomania. He was a little more of himself.
- [01:46]
Craig Ferguson
I want a little more you, too. Yeah, I like to, you know, if only you did.
- [01:50]
Kathie Lee Gifford
It's just because of that. So this is called Joy.
- [01:55]
Craig Ferguson
It's called Joy.
- [01:56]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Lord, please bless this time together with Craig and help us not to be too naughty. In Jesus name, Amen. Okay.
- [02:01]
Craig Ferguson
I don't. Look, I am not one to scoff about prayer, you know, I am not. I am not a. I wouldn't describe myself as a person of faith, but I am a person of doubt, which is on the way to faith, right?
- [02:16]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes. And some people's journeys are quite long.
- [02:18]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. I think mine's taken a while, but I feel like that prayer you sent up there about, lord, help us not be naughty. I think that in a hurtful way. Yeah. I just think I Mean, I'd love.
- [02:30]
Kathie Lee Gifford
To be naughty with you anytime you're ready. And you get rid of that, you know, woman that. Why is she still there?
- [02:36]
Craig Ferguson
Now, wait a. Now, wait. Wait a minute. You know, sometimes I think she asked herself the same question. So listen, I'm just going to say.
- [02:44]
Kathie Lee Gifford
She'S the type of woman you want to hate because she's so beautiful, she's so smart, she's so everything. And then you meet her and she's. You love her.
- [02:54]
Craig Ferguson
You're talking about my wife.
- [02:56]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, the other one. You have.
- [02:58]
Craig Ferguson
But listen, I know that you're very private, and I respect. And you know what? Let me just say at the start of this. Cause this is an unusual set of conversations for me.
- [03:09]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes.
- [03:10]
Craig Ferguson
That we are gonna talk about joy, and we are gonna talk about that. And I wanted to talk to you about it because you and I have a friendship, which. I love you, I adore you, and I don't agree with you in a lot of things.
- [03:24]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Not in a lot of things.
- [03:25]
Craig Ferguson
And I think that.
- [03:26]
Kathie Lee Gifford
But the most important things.
- [03:27]
Craig Ferguson
But go ahead. I think that's true, but I think that I see so much of, like, people can't be friends unless they all think along.
- [03:37]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah. The cancel thing.
- [03:39]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. That seems a little, I don't know, stupid.
- [03:42]
Howard Stern
Yeah.
- [03:43]
Kathie Lee Gifford
It seems we can learn from everybody we sit down and have a conversation with. Why would we want to block off. First of all, it's the antithesis of my faith, which is. I don't say that. My Christian faith, because I was born to a Jewish father and a shiksa mother, which is a gentile mother. And we didn't grow up with any organized religion in my life at all until all of us came to an understanding of faith in the person of Jesus, who in the Hebrew is called Yeshua. And all of my family did. And so when they say, what do you believe? I said, I'm a follower of Jesus. And even you and I have conversations quite a bit. When we were on set for our movie, Then came you, which is available on Netflix now, if you wanna know Netflix. But I said. You said that to me. And I've told this story on a couple of occasions because we had a break in shooting, as you always do in a movie.
- [04:41]
Craig Ferguson
Sure.
- [04:41]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And you said, and I can't do you without doing you. That's all right, because I used to have your head. I used to be in my head. I had you down perfectly. So I won't do it today. I will avoid it.
- [04:51]
Craig Ferguson
You can. I gave you permission. It's really all right.
- [04:53]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You can tell because I just adore you. You know, I'm sitting across from you and it's been a couple of years, and I've just.
- [05:00]
Craig Ferguson
It's been too long.
- [05:01]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And they put you too far away from me. I can't even reach you under the table.
- [05:05]
Craig Ferguson
Well, then somebody's reaching me. I don't know. You. You got your channel changing stick down there. Something's happening.
- [05:13]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Anyway, yeah. You said basically to me, kathy, why do you love me and Ricky? Meaning Gervais said, we're not great guys is the way you said it. And I thought, that's so not true.
- [05:25]
Craig Ferguson
Well, Ricky's a great guy. I don't want you to think that I think Ricky's a great guy.
- [05:28]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, you continue to say we don't believe like you, we don't believe in your faith. We don't probably don't vote the way you do. But why do you love us so much? Cause you knew I did. And I said, well, first of all, you're unbelievably lovable. And you're aging like a fine wine that you no longer drink. But anyway, you are created in the image of God, both you and Ricky. Plus, you're the funniest, smartest, dearest people. There's so many good things to love about you. Why wouldn't I love you? To which.
- [05:59]
Craig Ferguson
Here's the thing.
- [06:01]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You said, no person of faith has ever told us before that they love us. And I said to you, well, then you've never met one before.
- [06:12]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, to be fair, I don't know about Ricky. I mean, he probably gets told people love him all the time. But when I was. I mean, we're gonna.
- [06:20]
Kathie Lee Gifford
People of faith. That was what that was about. He gets told he's what's not to love about him. Except maybe I can't think of something right.
- [06:30]
Craig Ferguson
But, you know, you love what you love. But let me just say. Let me talk to you a little bit about Joy. We will talk to you about. About your faith and about Jesus.
- [06:38]
Kathie Lee Gifford
That was it.
- [06:39]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. All right, good. All right, so we're done with that. Now I wanna talk to you a little bit about Joy because the reason why I wanted to have discussions with people about it is because you, to me, are an example of someone who has gone through, particularly recently with Frank and all that, that you've gone through a lot of stuff. And I saw you. I remember seeing you, I think, at the Today show. It wasn't long after Frank had passed and you had that kind of quite speedy vibe of someone who was in grief and in shock, which is. But you also had something else, which is, I suppose, is your faith. I don't know, you'll tell me. But you are someone to me who seems to be in adversity, able to turn to a joy of some kind, or maybe it's wrong to say, but manufacture it in yourself or procure it or find it from somewhere. Would that be accurate, do you think?
- [07:41]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, I'm sure it seems like that to some people. It was actually a week after Frank had passed.
- [07:47]
Craig Ferguson
Right.
- [07:47]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Now, I had found, just for people who don't know the story, and it's been almost eight years now, Greg, since he passed.
- [07:52]
Craig Ferguson
Wow.
- [07:53]
Kathie Lee Gifford
He had been sick. He had a lot of cte. Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy. I can't say the last word. Encephalopathy, which is brain damage from concussion. After concussion. After concussion. Oh, from the football. It was a Sunday morning, a beautiful Sunday morning. It was Hoda's birthday, August 9th. And I remember the things you remember are crazy. But this is why. This is in answer to why I was. The way I was during this quite would have been traumatic experience for somebody that didn't already cling to God the way I have for so many years. I've always said, you know, there's no bad time to find God. But the worst times, you're grateful. You already cling to him. You just cling tighter at a time like that. And so I heard him get on his scale. The man was one week shy of 85. And he naked. He looked from the back. The man was 30. You know, he worked out still. He exercised his brain. What was left of it. We didn't know. Because you don't know about CTE until you do an autopsy, Right? And we weren't gonna do that on him before he was gone. I thought that would have been illegal.
- [09:07]
Craig Ferguson
It would've been a little. Yeah, it's tasty.
- [09:09]
Kathie Lee Gifford
It's just not.
- [09:09]
Craig Ferguson
People frown on it. It might even be illegal in some states. I don't know.
- [09:14]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Not anymore. Eugenics, baby. Bye bye. You're breathing air and leaving a carbon footprint. Bye bye. No more. So anyway, no, he was an extraordinary man till the day that he did pass. But I heard him get on his scale, which he did every day, and it said, you, weight is 178 pounds. And I remember thinking, oh, it's gonna be a good day. That was his playing weight for all those years, and that was his favorite weight. So he was extremely disciplined in Lots of ways. Now, he enjoyed life like crazy and God knows he made mistakes. Nobody knows that like I do. But he was a good, good, solid man of a different era. Yeah, a different generation. He grew up during the Depression, ate dog food as a child and was grateful to have it. His father was an itinerant oil worker. I mean, they lived, I think, I don't even remember 30 different places while he was growing up. So he never was able to put down roots anywhere. But the one thing that he could stand out at every time he moved to a different place was his athleticism. And so that came to be the thing. He was a terrible student. Later, when he got a scholarship to USC to play football, he became their finest scholar athlete. He was so grateful to have an education.
- [10:39]
Craig Ferguson
I was gonna ask you about that. Was Frank a grateful man? Was he a joyful man?
- [10:44]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You know, that's such a great question, because you would think he was grateful. And that's why we didn't bring a class action suit once we got the results of his brain scans. You know, a lot of people who had, whose loved ones had worked in the NFL joined this class action suit. Cause the NFL knew about this. They did. And Frank said, no matter what you find out, Kathy, you know, when I'm gone, I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want our family to be. He said, I am so grateful for the life that I have had that the NFL afforded me. He would have. He was. When he wasn't playing for the Giants, he went back to California and sold fertilizer in Bakersfield. That's what the NFL was at that time. Nobody was a full time football player. They only played it till the, you know, for the season. Everybody else had jobs. Otherwise, you know, a lot of them came back from World War II with half of their life shot up. You know, Connerly, who was his best friend there and was the quarterback, and they became dear, dear friends. And he had just come back from World War II, so, you know, it's a different world. I'm 23 years younger than Frank was to the day, so I would hear the stories he would tell, and I would have such respect and admiration for the kind of human beings that existed then. We hear so much today about the entitlement, about the cancel culture, all of that stuff which just demeans and diminishes the human spirit. Everything Frank talked to me about celebrated it.
- [12:22]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. I wanna talk to you a little bit about the cancel culture thing because I do have a Knee jerk reaction. A little about it myself. But at the same time, I think, you know, I look at my, you know, my oldest boy is 22, so he's kind of in that. In that world. That world. And I want to have an open mind about the youth the way you have an open mind about people who are not messianic, Jewish, Christian, which is.
- [12:58]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Most of the world.
- [12:59]
Craig Ferguson
Right.
- [13:00]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I don't want to cut off most of the world because they don't agree with me.
- [13:03]
Craig Ferguson
Right. And I don't want to cut off the. I'm not sure with cancel culture if it's really like that for most of them. You know, I think for the kids, I mean, when I say them, I mean, I'm talking about young people.
- [13:18]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I think, what do they call it? Gen X or Z? Gen X. Is it Z now?
- [13:21]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, I think it's Gen X.
- [13:22]
Kathie Lee Gifford
What do you do now? We've run out of that. We're gonna pick up the Greek Alphabet.
- [13:26]
Craig Ferguson
I don't know. I think, though, that my youngest boy, Liam is 12. So he's just coming into a generation. I don't know what the generation is called, but I think they're gonna be different than the generation.
- [13:37]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You know what? Can we just say he's 12. He' know, and he's adorable.
- [13:41]
Craig Ferguson
He is. He's gorgeous. Yeah.
- [13:42]
Kathie Lee Gifford
He reminds me of Stewie and Family Guy.
- [13:46]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [13:47]
Craig Ferguson
I don't think he would be. He would be insulted by that.
- [13:50]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I think he'd be proud. He'd wear it as a badge of honor. I want to be dad. Call me Stewie.
- [13:55]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. Although I think I'm a little like Peter Griffin as well, which is a little.
- [13:58]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I'm like the. I'm Brian the dog.
- [14:01]
Craig Ferguson
You're. Well, yeah, a little bit. No, you're with the wine. I.
- [14:06]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Hey, this is a. This is a latte. I'm about to graduate, though.
- [14:09]
Craig Ferguson
I. Are you now? Listen, there's another thing that I admire about you. You can drink. I can't drink.
- [14:15]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I know you can't, but have you.
- [14:17]
Craig Ferguson
Ever had a problem? Do you ever feel like. Oh, boy?
- [14:19]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah, at times? Definitely. Of course. Yeah.
- [14:21]
Craig Ferguson
Oh, that makes me feel a little.
- [14:22]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But here's the thing. If Jesus is my model and we go back to Yeshua, Jesus, people have no idea because they don't study rabbinically. The Western Christian world has no idea of our roots. I've had people even say to me through the years, now, Jesus was Catholic. Right. I'll go. Do you know what year the Catholic Church Came to be. I forget now, but it's like 590 A.D. or something like that. Yeah. I said Jesus had long since died, resurrected, ascended to heaven. And no, he was not Catholic. He was a Jew, a rabbinic. He was a rabbi and he was a Jew and a perfect Jew.
- [15:06]
Craig Ferguson
Was there a moment that kick off for you?
- [15:08]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I remember it as. I'm going to be 70 years old this year. I can't even believe that.
- [15:13]
Craig Ferguson
That's not true.
- [15:14]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Damn good do I know.
- [15:15]
Craig Ferguson
I need to know which moisturizer you use because you.
- [15:19]
Kathie Lee Gifford
If only it was just moisturizer. You know what it's. It's that. That's for. That's for our lunch afterwards where you and I usually talk. Yeah, yeah, no, I do. I. I'm actually developing a skin line and all of the botanicals that are in the skin line come from the Bible. What? Yes. Who was the greatest seductress of all time?
- [15:40]
Craig Ferguson
Salome?
- [15:41]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, even before that. Cleopatra.
- [15:45]
Craig Ferguson
Cleopatra.
- [15:46]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Cleopatra used all these things that were only. There was no CVS or some, you know, Lord and Taylor she could go to. Everything came from the earth. And so what never changes? Truth. The scriptures are built on truth. So we started looking at the Bible and the botanicals that existed at the time. Some have gone on.
- [16:09]
Craig Ferguson
You really genuinely are telling me you have a skincare line based on the reading of the Bible? Yes. I am both appalled and delighted to hear that.
- [16:18]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, if it were 2000 years ago for the greatest seductress of all time, Cleopatra, why would it not work for me and for you? And the beauty of it is it's called Neela. It's not out yet. We've been at tests, you know, trials for it, and my skin has never been better than it's been in my entire life.
- [16:38]
Craig Ferguson
You know, you do look well, I have to say. But listen, you sidetracked me. Talking about skincare line I want to talk to you about.
- [16:46]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah, that's not even at yet.
- [16:47]
Craig Ferguson
I want to talk about.
- [16:47]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I had no interest in talking about that.
- [16:50]
Craig Ferguson
Your epiphany, your moment, your literal come to Jesus moment.
- [16:55]
Kathie Lee Gifford
What was it? Beginning. This is not the moment I'm thinking of. But I fell asleep. I was a little girl living in Annapolis, Maryland. I looked up and it was fall. And my daddy and I were raking leaves and I looked up and there was Jesus sitting on a cloud.
- [17:13]
Craig Ferguson
That you actually saw?
- [17:14]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes, in my dream.
- [17:15]
Craig Ferguson
In your dream?
- [17:16]
Kathie Lee Gifford
In my dream. And he looked down at me.
- [17:18]
Craig Ferguson
Baby Jesus or grown up Jesus?
- [17:20]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, grown up Jesus.
- [17:20]
Craig Ferguson
Okay.
- [17:21]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And he Looked down at me and he smiled and I knew it was Jesus. That was it.
- [17:25]
Craig Ferguson
That was the dream.
- [17:26]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Years later, now I'm 12 years old, I believe, and I go to a movie. Not unlike the new movie, Jesus Revolution, which is out right now. That's the time period that I was growing up in. In the early in the 70s.
- [17:39]
Craig Ferguson
Okay.
- [17:40]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I graduated in 1971. That was when the Jesus revolution was really starting and I was already a part of it. But when I was 12, before that, there was a movie called the Restless Ones. First movie that the Billy Graham organization ever put out. And if you watch it today, it's one of the most dreadful drek. You know, even my kids looked at. They looked at it and they looked at me, mom, this is awful. I said at the time, it wasn't. Billy Graham was so, so criticized for it. You can't make a movie. The devil lives in the movie theaters. The devil lives in the bass drum. The devil lives in the nightclubs.
- [18:17]
Craig Ferguson
I can't argue with any of that, Kathy. That's what's always attracted me to all of that stuff.
- [18:21]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I know. And left to your own devices, it still would. But here's the thing. Billy Graham knew something that. Something deeper because he didn't have a religion, he had relationship with the living God. You know how anti religion I am.
- [18:37]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. That's why I'm kind of fascinated by. Because your faith is unshakable. Yeah. But you're. It's almost like a contempt for religion.
- [18:49]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Not the contempt I have for religion is not that people love their churches and love to go and hear the word of God. All of that is wonderful. I have contempt just like Jesus did for the leaders of the church that do not feed the flock, that abuse the privilege of power, that misuse it. So I'm talking about organized religion that has gotten so big and so powerful, not unlike our government, that it thinks that it is God. Instead of teaching the people to follow their good shepherd, they said, wait a minute. No, no, you're our flock.
- [19:26]
Craig Ferguson
To me it sounds like you're a little bit. Did you ever encounter the writings of the Desert Fathers? Have you ever come across that?
- [19:34]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No.
- [19:34]
Craig Ferguson
Evagras of Pontus or Origen.
- [19:37]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I've heard of all of this, but.
- [19:38]
Craig Ferguson
No, Origen of Alexandria was an early Christian theologian from Alexandria in Egypt. I think it was like his father was a Christian martyr. He was origin was, I think around 200 AD. So pre church.
- [19:58]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, not really pre Catholic church. Oh yes, way pre Catholic. But the original church was still Jesus.
- [20:05]
Craig Ferguson
So he's pre Catholic church and he. He got excommunicated 500 years after he died. They got very angry at him because he said God can exist only in the mind. There can be no physical manifestation of God. Manifestation in the sense of. Which is not what you want to hear if you're selling tchotchkas. I guess you mean chachkes.
- [20:30]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Say it right, It's Chachkis.
- [20:31]
Craig Ferguson
Chachkas. I'm sorry, it's Yiddish. It's my accent.
- [20:35]
Kathie Lee Gifford
It basically means crap.
- [20:36]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. But I think that to me, it sounds to me like your Christianity, for want of a better word, that your following of Jesus has a very early Christian feel about it. Like first hundred years after the resurrection.
- [20:56]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Exactly. When people who don't just. It's not that they're ignorant people, they just don't know. There's different kinds of ignorance in the world. I just didn't know that. And then there's willful ignorance. And I find so many Western Christians are ignorant about their early history, ignorant about what the word of God actually says, only cause they've never been taught. And that's what I get angry about. Craig. That we have people graduating from seminaries all over the world right now who don't even know that Jesus wasn't a carpenter. That's a bad translation.
- [21:30]
Craig Ferguson
He wasn't a carpenter.
- [21:31]
Howard Stern
No.
- [21:31]
Kathie Lee Gifford
See, there you go. This is the kind of stuff from studying rabbinically like I have now for a long time. You find out what the word tektan in the New Testament is. The original word for builder, architect, for what Joseph and Jesus did to make a living before Jesus became a rabbi. And it all goes back always to bad translations of the word of God. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, ancient Hebrew, which is still the same. Hebrew? Yeah.
- [22:06]
Craig Ferguson
Do you read Hebrew?
- [22:07]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah, I don't, but I study the reading. You know, I study it, but I don't. I can't sit down and read backwards and all that stuff. No, I study with the world's greatest biblical scholars. Many of them are messianic and otherwise. They are rabbis. And rabbis are the most learned people in the world, according to scriptures. I mean, they just are. They go 10 layers down.
- [22:30]
Craig Ferguson
But they don't always agree. Rabbis.
- [22:31]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, that's the point of being a rabbi. They fight all the time because it's not fight. They argue and they argue. And by arguing, this is what's wrong with culture. They learn and they start to ponder another person's opinion and their take on something. And that's what what good honest discussion should be like Respectful disagreement.
- [22:54]
Howard Stern
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- [24:18]
Unknown
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- [25:18]
Howard Stern
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- [26:42]
Craig Ferguson
I think we could talk about religion for a long time. And in our friendship, we have talked about religion for a long time.
- [26:47]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes, we do.
- [26:48]
Craig Ferguson
But there's another part of you. There's another area of you which I think most people are aware of. But even if they don't know, you're a very earthy person. You're funny, you have a. I'm a little body. You're a deliciously bawdy sense of humor.
- [27:06]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Thank you.
- [27:07]
Craig Ferguson
And you are, you're funny and you're naughty and you're earthy. And I think. And I mean all of these things as compliments. Cause you know I love you.
- [27:16]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I know, sweetie.
- [27:17]
Craig Ferguson
And I find that fascinating with what I understand of doctrinal holiness. Yeah.
- [27:29]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You know what holy actually means set apart for sacred use.
- [27:33]
Craig Ferguson
Okay.
- [27:34]
Kathie Lee Gifford
It doesn't mean perfect. It doesn't mean you got a halo over your head. It means set apart for sacred use in Hebrew. And that's what I am. And I think every human being is wired to be set apart for sacred use. I'm not gonna stop having the sense of humor I have. I was woven in my mother's womb before the dawn of time. So was my mother. So was your mot. So is Liam and Milo. That's Jehovah, God Elohim, the creator of all things. And so that's not gonna change. And the world in quotes does that. It tries to change us and make us cookie cutter Christians or cookie cutter Jews. Or Mormons or, you know, it's all the same.
- [28:16]
Craig Ferguson
Have you run into conflict with.
- [28:19]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh, all my life, I was kicked out of the Brownies when I was. I was kicked out. A few years later, I was kicked out of Sunday school A few years later, I was kicked out at the age of 17, the America's Junior Miss pageant. Why? Because I questioned things that were stupid, and I knew innately that's not true. I'll tell you a perfect example of religion and relationship in Jesus's day, when he walked on the earth, which he did for 33 years, the people who follow Jesus would understand, because they'd grown up this way, that the. The trees. And there were no big trees then. There was just sort of glorified bushes back then. Israel is a desert. Those trees, the trees that you go to Israel and you see now have been planted since it became a Nation in 1948.
- [29:07]
Craig Ferguson
I've never been.
- [29:08]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh, my gosh, you and I are gonna go one day, and it's gonna. It'll continue to blow mine and it's gonna. Yours will go flying off your neck. Okay, okay. And so. It's so, so interesting. So back then in Jesus day, certain trees represented certain groups of people within the Jewish culture, the Jewish people. Just one that everybody would know is the olive tree represented God's people, the Jews, to them. What the sycamore fig tree represented back then were the religious leaders of the day, the Pharisees and the Sadducees.
- [29:43]
Craig Ferguson
Oh, that's what you see.
- [29:44]
Kathie Lee Gifford
So Jesus was cursing them for not caring, not feeding the people, lying to them, cheating from them, misrepresenting themselves, abusing their power.
- [29:55]
Craig Ferguson
Oh, I see. I love that.
- [29:56]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Did any of that sound familiar?
- [29:57]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [29:59]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Nothing's changed. Because human nature doesn't. That's why we need the Holy Spirit to live within us. That's the only thing that changes our innate nature.
- [30:08]
Craig Ferguson
All right, so you live with the Holy Spirit within you. Now I'm gonna. So that I'm gonna say then I.
- [30:14]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Think you do too, but that's another discussion.
- [30:16]
Craig Ferguson
We're not talking about me. So the idea of joy within you is from that. I think. I think it's fair to say it.
- [30:26]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Comes from knowing where I came from and who I came from.
- [30:29]
Craig Ferguson
Now give me an example in your life, in the secular world. Give me a piece of adversity in your life where you turned immediately to that, to, if you like, seal the wound, stop the flow. You know what I mean? Is that something?
- [30:46]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh, there's so many I have a lifetime of it, a lifetime of history, of that's what keeps me. I still have tough things that happen to me on a daily basis. But as I said earlier, I cling tighter to the one I know has never betrayed me, never let me down, never lied to me. My rock, the rock of my salvation. And so I'll finish the little story about finding Frank an hour later, and he's gone. He's gone. At first, I tried to resuscitate him, and I can't. Cody, my son, is home. He hears me calling for him. He comes down, he gives the compression, and I am sobbing by that time. Cause I know that. And Cody's still trying. And I'm crying. But they were not tears of anything. Not fear. There was total peace in me. There was no anxiety in me.
- [31:41]
Craig Ferguson
Were you aware of this at the time?
- [31:42]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes, of course. And the Bible says it's called the peace that passes all understanding. You don't understand what that means until you're in a position where, you know, I shouldn't be feeling joyful right now. I was sobbing tears of joy. Cause the look on his face was this. And you can't see me over the airwaves, but I'm showing you, Craig. It was like wonder, wonder. And even Cody stopped doing the compressions. And he says, mom, look, he's smiling. And I said, I know, honey. He's with Jesus. And Jesus took his breath away. And that's exactly what happened. And so we. Instead of people talking about this tragedy of Frank dying. No. Frank had been to Israel with me. By that time. He'd found out that having a religion all of his life was worthless. He found out by studying the word of God that he had a relationship with the living God. And that is the difference between night and day.
- [32:39]
Craig Ferguson
Are you a believer in the continuation of form, of consciousness? A life after death?
- [32:45]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh, of course.
- [32:45]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah.
- [32:46]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah. Well, nobody exemplified that more than Jesus. They thought he was dead. Big surprise. Three days later, I resurrected. And you know what I love about that? Resurrection. It's one of my favorite stories in the Bible, if you don't know it, that basically, Jesus, it's morning time, it's Sunday morning, and nobody could come. The women in Jesus's life were the most unafraid. They were the most loved, because they were basically considered useless. In that society back then, you were there for sex. You were there to have to give babies to the powerful. But for the most part, women were considered less than chattel. You know, they weren't even Mosaic Law Considered a full human being. We have so much of that still in our world today. Jesus came along and said, no, you are equal. You are equal in God's kingdom. You are daughters of Abraham, you are daughters of the king. You are going to be a co heir with me to God's kingdom. This is why the women were there at the cross. Only one man, the Apostle John, only one man. And at the grave on Sunday morning when the sun came up, the women were there. And the first person that Jesus appeared to was Mary Magdalene, whom Jesus had cast seven demons out of. We would call that today mental illness.
- [34:04]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, the demon thing is, I was gonna talk to you a thing about demons. Demons are. Again, when I was talking to you about the Desert Fathers, Origin of Alexandria, Evagrius of Pontus. These were early Christian theologians and mystics, and they talked about demons in the way that we talk about character defects. And it seems to me sometimes in early church thinking and perhaps later church thinking. I don't know much about church, but it seems to me that a lot.
- [34:35]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Of.
- [34:37]
Craig Ferguson
Early, almost psychotherapy comes from that kind of thing. It's like trying to get rid of the negative aspects of your own consciousness, your own being.
- [34:49]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, do that.
- [34:51]
Craig Ferguson
Who put them there in the first place?
- [34:53]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, that's why I'm so glad you asked, because I just got an answer to that. I've been studying all my life, basically, with the world's greatest biblical scholars in Israel. And it's always in Genesis. It talks about at the dawn of creation, how God. There was an assembly, there was a council of the heavenly realms. That means it wasn't just Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God there and the Father. There were other entities.
- [35:18]
Craig Ferguson
And you believe like a big kind of like Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings thing, do you think, or.
- [35:23]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You know, maybe this is why I haven't read so many of these other things that people say, have you read? Have you read? Have you read? I've been studying this my entire life, and I don't. And I barely scratched the surface. You know, if somebody says, go read this, somebody I would respect. And now I would. Because you have said it. I would read the Book of Enoch. I would read some of the. The deeper Kabbalah stuff, which comes from a good place of early Judeo Judaic mysticism. But for now, it takes everything with the brain cells I still have left to study what it really. I've learned it the wrong way for so many years, Craig, that I'm gonna spend the rest of My life trying to unlearn what wasn't true. Like, Jesus was not a carpenter. That's a bad translation of the word.
- [36:12]
Craig Ferguson
He didn't curse at a tree, and.
- [36:13]
Kathie Lee Gifford
He cursed what the tree represented.
- [36:16]
Craig Ferguson
Right, right. Got it.
- [36:17]
Kathie Lee Gifford
But the Bible talks about Jehovah Elohim. Creator talks about the lesser Elohim gods in the scripture, it says. And the lesser gods. Well, what's that? How's that work? He said, you shall have no other God before me. He meant the ultimate epitome of the Godhead.
- [36:35]
Craig Ferguson
So there.
- [36:36]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You think then it all started back then.
- [36:38]
Craig Ferguson
So there's a God. Yeah, but there's also like a bunch of other slightly lesser naughty gods.
- [36:46]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, they all started out as God's creation, and some of them rebelled is the story. And Satan, who is the. You know, he's the God of chaos. If God, my God, Jehovah Elohim is the God of shalom. People think shalom just means peace. It does not. Peace is one of the parts of shalom. And it's almost like mahalo. It just becomes sort of, hey, shalom, shalom, you know? No, God is shalom at that. That's every attribute of God that makes him God. Faithfulness, justice, peace, joy, your joy, miracles, glory, righteousness, all those things. That's shalom.
- [37:26]
Craig Ferguson
Okay, so let me ask you this then. Cause I'm gonna steer you back around to what we talked a little bit about earlier, which was the idea of a life after death. Because I think a lot of people, particularly in the more naive agnostic, atheistic community. Communities is the wrong word, but realm, Realm, the idea that religion is all about life after death. It's all about. And so because it's an unprovable situation while you're alive, I would ask you, do you have a conception of it? Do you have. Are you certain of if it exists? And. And if it does exist, what it.
- [38:11]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Looks like, you know, you're so smart to say that. It's in the sweet by and by. That's what so many people live their life. If I can just get this through this life, it's gonna be perfect one day. You know, what Jesus came to show us is, yes, there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and it will be perfect, and every tear will be dried and there will be no pain, and there will be the perfection that God had originally. He put us in a garden. Whether you believe in that as a real place or as a metaphor, it was perfect. That's what he always, always meant for us, is the Garden where he. Why did he need us to be born? Did he need to create us? Why did he create us with free will? You know, he could have created a bunch of robots and we would have done everything he wanted.
- [39:00]
Craig Ferguson
I'm okay with robots. I like robots.
- [39:02]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, no, because they want to be God. I'm sorry. Ultimately these robots are good. They're gonna smarter than us. And that's what happened in the original story. Suffice to say, nothing is new under the sun. And the things that we battle with today, like Mary Magdalene at the cross. I was gonna finish that story. Jesus, she doesn't recognize him in the morning. Cause it's early morning, it's dawn. She's come. She believes he's died. She saw him die. She was at the cross. Watched him. Watched them throw the spear and the blood and the water gush out. She saw his suffering. They never left the cross. And he was there from nine in the morning till three in the afternoon when they pronounced him dead. Which interestingly enough, Greg, at 3:00. They call it the ninth hour. That is when all of the animal sacrifices at the temple take place at 3 o'clock in the afternoon. So Jesus was the ultimate sacrificial lamb. While they were actually sacrificing a lamb in the inner court, this holy of holies on the temple. Jesus naked. He was not. You've always seen him on the cross with a loincloth and all of that.
- [40:09]
Craig Ferguson
That was a society thing.
- [40:11]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, that was the ultimate for them. They wanted to crucify you naked and as vulnerable as anybody could be. And that was anybody that crucified us naked?
- [40:21]
Craig Ferguson
Well, I think also the idea, I mean the historical aspects of crucifixion, you know, the idea Spartacus and like, I think like 10. I don't know what the number was. It was. Thousands of slaves were crucified on the Appian Way.
- [40:35]
Kathie Lee Gifford
That was their war. Mess with Rome, this is gonna be your end.
- [40:38]
Craig Ferguson
I mean, that was, I think Pompey that did that, which was right about the same time as. Or Crassus maybe, who did it round about the same time as Jesus of Nazareth.
- [40:49]
Kathie Lee Gifford
It's one of. It's the worst, they say the worst death that's ever been contrived by a human being.
- [40:55]
Craig Ferguson
What, a crucifixion?
- [40:58]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, there's been some bad ones since.
- [41:01]
Craig Ferguson
So listen, we talked a lot about religion and clearly that is at the core of who you are.
- [41:06]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, not religion, hun.
- [41:07]
Craig Ferguson
Oh, sorry.
- [41:08]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Relationship. I do believe it's a hard habit You're a hard habit to break.
- [41:14]
Craig Ferguson
This is another habit you've got. You will sing directly at people, which.
- [41:17]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I think nobody will buy my records.
- [41:18]
Craig Ferguson
No, I don't think that's true. I also find it. I find it quite alarming and very endearing at the same time. A little bit like you. You are very much who you are, and I. And I love that and I appreciate that about you. And I wonder, do you ever. When you get. Because you say things about Jesus Christ and a lot of people are very touchy about that.
- [41:44]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh, yeah? Yes.
- [41:45]
Craig Ferguson
Do you ever.
- [41:46]
Kathie Lee Gifford
He's not popular in all circles.
- [41:48]
Craig Ferguson
Right. And not even that. I mean, people who are, you know, followers of Jesus Christ or people who are Christians, you will have doctrinal differences, differences with them. And people get very heated about that. Do you ever feel like maybe you don't wanna bring it up?
- [42:07]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You know, it goes back to that boldness that.
- [42:10]
Craig Ferguson
I thought you banned from the Brownies.
- [42:12]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I was gonna tell you that when I went to the movie, I went to the Billy Graham movie and it was over. And I remember literally hearing the voice of Jesus again in my heart. And he said, kathy, I love you and if you will trust me, I will make something beautiful out of your life. That was it. He said it was the defining moment. I walked forward, literally gave my heart, even though my heart was already his. I just made sort of the public statement, yes, I am going to follow you. And that was the single greatest decision of my entire life.
- [42:48]
Craig Ferguson
And you feel the. All adversity is coped. Because I'm fascinated by people of faith. I am fascinated by people of faith.
- [42:57]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You always have been.
- [42:57]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. And of all doctrines, all faiths, I'm fascinated by it. I think it's an interesting thing. And I'm fascinated by yours because it is unshakable, which I suppose that's what faith is. Have you ever thought.
- [43:11]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Because faith is a gift. It's not because I have it innately, but the Scripture is very clear that faith, even faith, I have to get from him. So when I'm running out of it, I just cry out. The scripture's full of. Cry out to the Lord. He knows you. He created you. He knows you need it. Cry out and ask and you will receive.
- [43:31]
Craig Ferguson
Let me ask you then, because we're talking about joy or we were at some point the idea of running out of faith.
- [43:40]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes, we all do.
- [43:41]
Craig Ferguson
Describe for me a moment in your life where you had to do that because you talked about frank passing and that was clearly a joyful huge moment.
- [43:51]
Kathie Lee Gifford
That's almost 30 years of marriage. Right, right.
- [43:54]
Craig Ferguson
But is there a time like I'm trying to think of something more? Not. Well, something more mundane, something more every day, something more.
- [44:03]
Kathie Lee Gifford
The times that my faith was most tried is the way I can answer it. And took me to my knees more often than a normal day would. When I was accused of sweatshop violations, when I was accused of abusing children in sweatshop.
- [44:15]
Craig Ferguson
I remember that. That was one of the most.
- [44:17]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes. Was one of the most. I couldn't really. Lord, really? Frank and I had just opened up a $14 million home for AIDS and crack babies in New York during the pandemic. Every bit of the money from my Walmart clothing line went towards building that home when nobody would even hold an AIDS baby. Only Princess Diana was doing that.
- [44:38]
Craig Ferguson
That's right.
- [44:38]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I remember. And so now we've built a home from scratch. It used to be the old Ronald McDonald House. Before that it was a woman's convent. And we just bought it, tried with $2 million to renovate it for these babies. Couldn't because of the laws. Anytime you're dealing with diseases and babies and, you know, tried to, you know, we had to tear it down and start from scratch. And it cost $14 million. And that's where my Walmart money went. You know, I was taking, you know, money that I earned honestly and put it. Giving it away. They never. The people who came against me never visited Cassidy's place or Cody House once. They just stood up like they're doing in culture. The culture now cancel culture. And accused me of something so that they would. The guy that did it said he was a human rights activist. No, he was an attorney who worked for Unite the Apparel.
- [45:34]
Craig Ferguson
Right?
- [45:35]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes. And you know what he said to me later? I'm not gonna say that privately, I'll tell you.
- [45:39]
Craig Ferguson
Okay.
- [45:40]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Nobody knows this, but it's interesting. But anyway, we got laws passed. I got legislation passed. I was suing the state of New York to unblind HIV testing because babies were being born who shouldn't be born with the AIDS virus or just with the full blown aids. We found out with all of our studying that if a baby got a certain. No, if a mother got cocktail of certain drugs while she was pregnant, it would go from less than 40% down to less than an 8% chance the child would be born with the disease.
- [46:17]
Craig Ferguson
Wow.
- [46:18]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And I said then. And they had cdc. The wonderful CDC had blinded all HIV testing in the clinics so they could track it, not do anything. About it. Just track it. And we knew that there was hope. There was hope.
- [46:34]
Craig Ferguson
So there was a treatment for women who had HIV and were pregnant.
- [46:39]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes. And I said.
- [46:40]
Craig Ferguson
And it was being withheld from.
- [46:42]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And there are all kinds of different privacy issues that were involved, especially with gay men who legitimately were worried about if their status was known, they might, you know, And I respected that. But at that time, you know, this was about dying babies to me. I said, you guys can do with your. You can march, you can do. You can fight your battles in court, but this is of great urgency. There's a way we can save lives, you guys, not just the men. I don't mean that. I meant the world. And so I sat one night with Governor George Pataki at a swanky party in the Hamptons at the home of the Revlon. Ronald Perlman's not widow, but divorced. She was a friend of mine, Claudia Cohen. Beautiful woman. She said, kathy, I know what you're doing. I'm sitting here next to the governor. I said, oh, the poor governor. He stuck with me for two. Now I'm suing the governor. Understand? I'm suing.
- [47:38]
Craig Ferguson
You were suing him and sitting next to him at a party.
- [47:40]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes. Yes.
- [47:41]
Craig Ferguson
Okay, that's good.
- [47:41]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yes, yes, yes.
- [47:42]
Craig Ferguson
He must have loved that.
- [47:43]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You know what? He's such a good, decent man. I'd met him before, and when I say I was suing him. The organization that I worked with, the association to Benefit Children, had sued the state of New York two other times and won both times, too. So we're an adversary to be dealt with. But I told him everything. And back then, I knew everything about this. I knew every statistic. I don't anymore. This was a long time ago, but I remember it, boys. I remember sitting in that. And he sat and listened to me with such respect and so quietly asked a couple of different questions. I had the answers. And he said to me at the end of the evening, three things. He said, I never knew this. Really.
- [48:25]
Craig Ferguson
A politician said that?
- [48:26]
Kathie Lee Gifford
He said, yes, that's what I thought. I never knew this. Number two, we're on the wrong side of this issue.
- [48:32]
Craig Ferguson
A politician say that?
- [48:33]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yep.
- [48:33]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, but that's. I never heard that. Yeah.
- [48:35]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Third one. I'm gonna do something about this.
- [48:37]
Craig Ferguson
No, now you're crazy.
- [48:39]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Now, Frank was sitting at a different table. And I remember driving home with him, and I said, I think he heard me. He was. I think so. Honey, I don't know if he's gonna have the guts, the balls, whatever it takes to do the right thing. But I know he heard me. Me. And within one month, Governor Pataky stood in the garden of the Cody House on 91st street in New York City and announced the unblinding of HIV testing for the state of New York. Long story short, for the first time in history since the HIV AIDS started was the first time the death rate went down because the birth rate was. You know, because the babies were living.
- [49:22]
Craig Ferguson
Babies were surviving.
- [49:23]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Right? They were surviving. And within one year after that, every state unblinded HIV testing. Not because I did the brave thing, but because Governor Pataky did. There are still people in this world who are there for the right reasons. And when we fight a good fight and we back it up with science, and we back it up with goodwill and prayer, miracles still happen every day.
- [49:50]
Jason Alexander
I'm Jason Alexander.
- [49:51]
Peter Tilden
And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the really Know really.
- [49:54]
Jason Alexander
Podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions.
- [49:58]
Peter Tilden
Like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.
- [50:03]
Jason Alexander
We got the answer.
- [50:03]
Peter Tilden
Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.
- [50:22]
Jason Alexander
Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us.
- [50:23]
Kathie Lee Gifford
How are you? Hello.
- [50:24]
Peter Tilden
My friend Wayne Knight. About Jurassic Park.
- [50:27]
Jason Alexander
Wayne Knight, welcome to really.
- [50:28]
Unknown
No really, sir.
- [50:29]
Craig Ferguson
Bless you all.
- [50:30]
Peter Tilden
Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging.
- [50:35]
Craig Ferguson
Really?
- [50:35]
Kathie Lee Gifford
That's the opening? Really? Not really.
- [50:37]
Howard Stern
Yeah, really.
- [50:38]
Unknown
No, really.
- [50:39]
Jason Alexander
Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win.
- [50:41]
Peter Tilden
$500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign. Jason Bobblehead.
- [50:46]
Jason Alexander
It's called really?
- [50:47]
Craig Ferguson
No really.
- [50:47]
Jason Alexander
And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [50:59]
Craig Ferguson
There's an interesting word you used. You used the word science. And a lot of people on May. I'm. I'm not gonna say my side of the fence. Cause that's not true. I don't have a side of the fence here. You don't on the fence.
- [51:13]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You're fenceless.
- [51:14]
Craig Ferguson
I'm kind of wandering around, actually.
- [51:16]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You're defenseless every now and again.
- [51:19]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, defenseless is best. But a lot of people think that science and faith are in conflict. They are things that are in conflict. You don't see it that way.
- [51:31]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Science lives exactly alongside faith. When you know what the faith is based on and what it really says there is, it's perfect. The world as it was created was mathematically perfect. I'm sorry, but that's not random. That's a mind and a being that we can never, ever comprehend, but we can bow to it. And we can, in our own ways, be humble before it and say, lord, I know. Oh, I'm not perfect. I know. You created me for good things. You created me for something better than what I'm settling for. I need your help. All God wants, you know, he says in scripture somewhere, he says, I don't want your sacrifices. I want you to know me.
- [52:17]
Craig Ferguson
And you think mathematics and science is the knowledge of is God.
- [52:21]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, God says in the Old Testament, he said, look at the heavens. They have all knowledge and all wisdom is there. But religion came along and said, can't worship the stars. Can't worship the stars. You know, he didn't say, worship them. Said, study them, study them. Seek, seek. And it's just so exciting. That's what makes my faith more real every day. A couple of years ago, the Lord gave me something that I've tried to live as my mantra, mantra, etc, ever since. And it's like, Kathy, there's a scripture that says, the joy of the Lord is your strength. Well, okay, that's in. What is it, Angie? Nehemiah, 8, 10.
- [53:10]
Craig Ferguson
I was gonna say that, but I didn't wanna get it wrong.
- [53:12]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Nehemiah, 8, 10. The joy of the Lord is your strength. Okay, I believe that. But later in life, maybe, maybe when I was going through the really, really rough times of Frank's. Infidelity came a year later after all the terrible stuff with these sweatshops.
- [53:30]
Craig Ferguson
It was a very embarrassing time, I would imagine.
- [53:32]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Mostly for him.
- [53:34]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, listen, look, I know this. I know that. I remember seeing that at the time. I was working on the Drew Carey show at the time. I remember talking to Drew and we saw it in the newspaper, and he said to me, how would you like to be Frank Gifford this morning?
- [53:47]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I said, no, no, no. Men came up to him all the time. Better you than me, Frank. I mean, it was disgusting. And he was a good man who did a stupid thing.
- [53:58]
Craig Ferguson
It happens.
- [53:59]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Heads up, it happens. It happens. And women were after my husband. He was a Kevin Costner of his day. You know, he was the Brad Pitt of his day. And it was blatant right in front of me. And, you know, I lived with that, but I really believed that he was stronger than that. And he was also 66 years old when that happened. It wasn't like he was 22. And he knew better. He knew better, but it was. You know what? We can go into that another time as well. But I remember the Lord saying to me, kathy, this is what I want you to think all the time. My joy is non negotiable.
- [54:38]
Craig Ferguson
Oh, boy. Okay.
- [54:41]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I'll know. You know, when you and I were doing our movie together, then came new. Available on Netflix. On Netflix. We had to go through a negotiation with you for the price. That would be fair. You gave a little. It's a negotiation. That's our business.
- [54:54]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah.
- [54:55]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And time off. You wanted to, you know, time to go back to your. To the most beautiful home in Scotland and visit your family. Don't like the wife, but that's another story. And it's the process. So you understand negotiation. But he said, your joy. Don't let anybody mess with your joy, Kathy. And my joy comes from knowing every morning when I wake up that I am a child of the living God.
- [55:23]
Craig Ferguson
So were you able to forgive? Is that how you were able to forgive Frank?
- [55:26]
Kathie Lee Gifford
The way I was able to forgive Frank. Howard Stern, you, everybody else who's broken my heart.
- [55:31]
Craig Ferguson
Oh, come on.
- [55:33]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You're in good company.
- [55:35]
Craig Ferguson
I was gonna say, these guys make a lot more money than me.
- [55:38]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Hey, wait till this podcast takes off anyway. Yeah. What was your question?
- [55:44]
Craig Ferguson
That was funny. Was that how you were able to forgive Frank?
- [55:48]
Kathie Lee Gifford
The way I was able to forgive Frank was that the minute I knew it was true. Cause I believed him when he said it didn't happen. I had no reason not to, because my husband stood by me through the sweatshop stuff. He stood by me through the.
- [56:01]
Craig Ferguson
People lie.
- [56:01]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Everything.
- [56:02]
Craig Ferguson
People lie when they're panicked and they're afraid.
- [56:04]
Kathie Lee Gifford
That's exactly what you're.
- [56:05]
Craig Ferguson
And I'm sure that's what happened.
- [56:06]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And he realized he was caught. He had no idea that they had tape, you know, audio tape. He just knew that until he found. And he said, no, it wasn't. People were all always trying to set us up. Always trying to destroy us. First of all, that goes back to the ones who were fallen from grace. God's grace is forever. But they chose to walk away from God Almighty and try to be God. That's never gonna work out in anybody's life. You know, you've seen and I have seen a parade of people who started to believe that they were God Almighty. Boy. And then where are they now?
- [56:41]
Craig Ferguson
It happens in show business from time to time.
- [56:43]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You know, Jesus. Jesus said, what does it profit a person if they gain the whole world and lose their very soul? Jesus didn't want them to lose their souls. That's why he came.
- [56:55]
Craig Ferguson
And I'm gonna push you on this because the forgiving of infidelity for a person like you, who I know what you stand for, and I know what you're like, and I know how much you value loyalty and truth and friendship, that. That kind of betrayal would be horrendous. And so for you, that must have been a mountain to climb to get.
- [57:18]
Kathie Lee Gifford
No, it was instantaneous.
- [57:20]
Craig Ferguson
Really?
- [57:20]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yep. The minute I knew it was true, God showed me. Almost like a scrawl. I don't do computer. But now that I've seen it, it was like a scrawl of everything that God had already forgiven me for. He said, kathy, every time you asked for forgiveness, I forgave you. You cannot ask for forgiveness if you're not willing to give it. It was instantaneous.
- [57:42]
Craig Ferguson
That's amazing. It's amazing.
- [57:44]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And then the exact opposite with Howard Stern, the story. He started saying the most horrendous things about me. I'd never met the man, never listened to his show, never watched it, never met him, nothing. And he started just. Just. I would. People would tell me, gosh, I can't believe what Howard Stern. I said, don't tell me. I don't want to know. But the minute I heard that he was doing that kind of thing, I started praying for him. I said, lord, he must be so hurt inside to hurt people he doesn't even know, to be so cruel to people that are, you know, don't live cruel lives. You know, I'm not perfect, but I wasn't out there hurting people. You know, I don't understand it, Lord, but you know, why he does it hurt people. Hurt people. So I said, lord, I'm just going to pray for him. I'm afraid that one day he'll come to know you, come to know how precious he is to you.
- [58:34]
Craig Ferguson
And you two became friends, right?
- [58:35]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, you're my friend, right? He became. Thirty years later, he asked me to forgive him. Really? And he said, yes. And he said, will you forgive me? And I said, howard, of course.
- [58:48]
Craig Ferguson
He's a remarkable human being.
- [58:50]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I don't know him still to this day, but he's.
- [58:52]
Craig Ferguson
I think he's a fascinating man.
- [58:54]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh, he is. And he's brilliant. And he's used his communication skills, I think, in a dark way, when God always intended for that brilliant mind and that brilliant sense of humor and all those things to be used for his glory, not his own, not his God's glory. And so anyway, I would pray for him every day. I just did. And so I sent him a note when he got divorced from his wife. And I hand delivered it because he lived across the street, so he lived in Regis Building. And I said, I'll just take it over. I didn't trust it getting to him otherwise, you know, And I left it. And the next day, he's talking on the air about, you know what I got a note from, you know, and I didn't hear this either, but I was told. And he goes at the nicest note, just the nicest note from of all people. And he says. And then they all cl. Oh, she's just doing it so you'll like her. No, that's bullshit. She's the phony. You ought so whatever. And so he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. So that was years and years, years later. Now, I won't go through the whole story unless you want to hear it, but I look up one day at the studio. I'm at the Today show now. And I look up, and downstairs there's a monitor. But downstairs, one floor beneath me, is where. You've been there, Craig, where you walk in and you go to the studio.
- [60:08]
Craig Ferguson
Sure.
- [60:09]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I'd never seen anyone with an entourage as big as this. Because he was there to announce that he was going to be a judge on Is it America's Got Talent?
- [60:18]
Craig Ferguson
America's Got Talent, yeah.
- [60:19]
Kathie Lee Gifford
So he was making that announcement, and it was gonna be on NBC and all that. So I'm gonna. Oh, there's Howard. Okay. I didn't think anything of it. Just said another prayer for him, probably. I don't know. I'm getting hair. I just come in from Greenwich, so my makeup's not done, my hair's wet. I'm in my little schlep shows, like when we're on set.
- [60:36]
Craig Ferguson
I've seen you like that.
- [60:36]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You've seen me like that. And I'm hot, aren't I?
- [60:38]
Craig Ferguson
Absolutely. It's an amazing thing to see.
- [60:42]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And anyway, so the Lord says, kathy, I want you to go downstairs right now and say hello to Howard and welcome him and wish him well with the show. And I read, okay, Lord. Now, they had made huge effort at NBC to make sure that I didn't run into him and he didn't run into me because there was a lot at stake. And My hair and makeup people have been told, don't let Kathy out of your sight, right? All of a sudden I get up and I say to my hair and makeup people, I'll be right back.
- [61:14]
Craig Ferguson
I can imagine all the floor management people, she's walking, she's walking, she's walking, she's walking.
- [61:18]
Kathie Lee Gifford
It was just like that.
- [61:21]
Craig Ferguson
And.
- [61:21]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Sorry. I started singing again. And anyway, I just go downstairs, nobody tries to stop me. I walk in and I walk right up to Howard, who's 6, 6. I was 56 at the time. I've shrunk a little and I'm flat footed. And I look up and I'm going, howard, Howard. And he's looking around because he's a good foot taller than I am. And all of a sudden he looks down and sees this little elf in front and he goes, wow. I remember him just sort of physically backing up and going. Rarely is the man speechless. He was speechless. And I put my hand out to him and said, hi, Kathie Lee. I think it's about time we meet, don't you think? And he put his hand out and I said, I just want to wish you well. And with the show and with your life and you just take care of yourself. That was it. I turned and walked away. He one thing, he just said, yeah, crazy, right? The show, it's crazy. I said, it's crazy. And I just left and went upstairs. They go, what did you do? I said, I said, I wished him well with the show. Let's get my hair and makeup done. I'm a little behind. And I left that day for LA because Cody was graduating from USC film school the next day. So I was flying into to be a family for a while. I land and turn my phone on and there's a message. My friend Jill Martin had given him my number. Cause she knew it was important. And it was him saying, can I say bad words on your podcast? Am I allowed?
- [62:44]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, I think you can.
- [62:45]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah. I mean, obviously I erased it, but it was a million fuck words. It was like, I'm so fucked. This is Howard Stern. I'm just. I'm such a fucking idiot. He's just. I can't tell you exactly what he said, but there I could tell the man was in great pain. And he said, I'm so sorry. I need you to forgive me. I need to talk to you. You were so nice to me today. And I've just been wrong and I'm just. He was so contrite. He was so. He broke my heart. But There was no number. I couldn't call him. It was just a, you know, Call id. Unknown.
- [63:17]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah.
- [63:17]
Kathie Lee Gifford
So I said, well, Lord, it's in your hands. I thanked God, I said, how incredible. 30 years later, Lord, you're answering. This man is seeking people he has hurt to say, I'm sorry. Forgive me. Every person needs to do that in their life, all of us do, to have peace. Shalom, God. Shalom. So anyway, that night, we're at dinner, we're at the Beverly Hills Hotel, and I see no caller id, and I'm going, oh, it's him. He's trying again. I got up. My husband was not happy, and neither was Cody. You're not gonna talk to him, Mom. You're not gonna. I said, oh, yes, I am. I'll be back. You guys continue with dinner. I went into a private room there and I guess for about a half an hour, maybe not that much, maybe 20 minutes. I don't know. Those things are surreal. Anyway. You don't really know. I'd check my phone if I knew how to. And he was so incredibly contrite. He said, I cannot believe how kind you were to me. And I said, well, of course I was. You were. And he said, and so do you forgive me? He said, kathy, I've just. I've fucked up my entire life. My whole life. And I'm getting counseling. You know, I'm trying to be a better person. I'm trying to go to everybody that I've hurt. And I know what. I've been horrible to you. And I keep hearing wonderful things about you. And I just kept doing it. And I said, why, Howard? Why did you? He goes, because I hated you. And I said, but why? We had never even met. He said, you were everything I wasn't. You're Jewish, but you believe in Jesus. How's that? You're a musician, but you sing old songs that your father likes. I just found a million things to make fun of you for. I thought you were a complete phone. The only way I could deal with somebody like you is to write you off as a phony. And he had a group of minions, of course. And yes, people who just fed into that. That's okay. Anyway, he said, do you forgive me? I said, howard, of course I do. But I just need you to know that I forgave you 30 years ago and I've been praying for you every day since. And he goes, what? I said, yep. I knew this day would come. I didn't know when. You certainly taken your time. We just Had a little laugh. And I said, would you like to come to dinner at my house? He goes, you'd have me for dinner? I said, of course. I'm not sure Frank will, but I will, you know, that kind of thing. And we never did do that. But I've run into him several times since. And it's. It's very warm between us and there's no tension. There's none of that. It's forgiven. It's not forgotten. It was a huge thing. But how you forgive is immediately because you realize that that's what Jesus did. He said, you're not supposed to forgive once. You forgive seven times, 70 times, which is in the Bible, the perfection, everything science does, all the mathematics. If Jesus turned six pots of water into wine, there's a reason it's six pots. I've written a book called the Rock, the Road and the Rabbi with one of the great biblical rabbinic scholars. And every single number he knows the meaning of, because the rabbis do. And when you find out what it means, it is so mind boggling. And it just confirms and affirms your faith. This is not a random thing. This is sovereign God being sovereign God in spite of whatever else happens in whatever realm. And I believe there's many realms, you know, who the hell do we think we are to think that there's just us in this world? You know I don't believe that, right? I don't know what else is there, but I'm not gonna put God in a box and say he only created us, you know? No, no, I don't believe that. And I think that's what eternity is all about. Once the next step comes. You asked about that earlier. It's. We're gonna be learning, we're gonna be growing. We're not gonna be sitting around on clouds playing the harp. I don't wanna go there. You know, I get tired of the harp in about five minutes.
- [67:12]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. There's a hotel lobby vibe about a harp. I've gotta be honest, I love that you're talking about time. Cause we're out of it.
- [67:19]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, are you dying anytime soon?
- [67:21]
Craig Ferguson
No, I really hope not. But what I mean is. But what I mean is you're giving me the hook. I'm giving you the hook for now. And then I'm gonna take you out and we're gonna get something to eat.
- [67:29]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Okay, my darling, that sounds great, but.
- [67:31]
Craig Ferguson
Nobody else can come to. Then you can tell me the stories that you weren't gonna sell me.
- [67:35]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I've told you lots of stuff. That will never, you know, never be said publicly. Cause I trust you.
- [67:41]
Craig Ferguson
That's right. That's right.
- [67:42]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I trust you. And I love you. And you've always let me be me. And I do adore your wife. And she's the one who said, I sent you the script. You gave it to her. And she does have a beautiful name. Her name is Megan, and she's a beautiful woman from New Hampshire originally. But anyway, I know all of this. I know. I'm telling you, your listeners who may not know, and I didn't. She turn to you and say, you've gotta do this movie.
- [68:05]
Craig Ferguson
She said that? She said, you gotta do this movie. She also said, and I'm gonna cuss a little here, but you're gonna like this. She said, that is Kathie Lee Gifford. She's a goddamn American treasure, and you're gonna do this movie.
- [68:18]
Kathie Lee Gifford
She did.
- [68:19]
Craig Ferguson
She did.
- [68:20]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You never told me that.
- [68:21]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, that's true.
- [68:22]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You told me. I'm serious. I'm not doubting it, but that's so nice. But you told me. She said she had boys. Does she have you down?
- [68:30]
Craig Ferguson
Well, she did see that, too. We got to go.
- [68:33]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I love you.
- [68:33]
Craig Ferguson
I love you, too.
- [68:34]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Don't believe what you've heard about this man. He's awesome.
- [68:38]
Craig Ferguson
See you later.
- [68:39]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Bye, baby.
- [68:40]
Craig Ferguson
Bye.
- [68:55]
Jason Alexander
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- [68:56]
Peter Tilden
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- [68:57]
Jason Alexander
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Peter Tilden
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- [69:01]
Jason Alexander
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Peter Tilden
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Jason Alexander
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- [69:18]
Jason Alexander
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