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- [00:00]
Unknown Host
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Sarah Spain
Get fired up, y'.
- [00:06]
Craig Ferguson
All.
- [00:06]
Sarah Spain
Season two of Good Game with Sarah Spain is underway. We just welcomed one of my favorite people, an incomparable soccer icon Megan Rapinoe, to the show and we had a blast. Take a listen. Sue and I were like riding the lime bikes the other day and we're like, wee people ride bikes because it's fun. We got more incredible guests like Megan in store, plus news of the day and more. So make sure you listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network.
- [00:41]
Unknown Host
What's up, guys? Welcome to the Agusto Papa podcast, the go to spot for everything. Musica Mexicana. We're proud Mexican Americans who live and breathe this music. We started this podcast to share and discuss our views of musica Mexicana. Whether you like to vibe to Peso Pluma, Los Alegres del Barranco, Ariel Camacho, or Pod Ivan Cornejo. When you get it in feels, then this podcast is for you. Well, actually, Peso was supposed to be on Chinito's album. The song Drake was supposed to be with Bessel. Listen to agaGustopa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [01:12]
Janae Cheekies
Hey guys, it's Janae, AKA Cheekies from Cheekies and Chill Podcast. And I'm bringing you an all new mini podcast series called Sincerely Janae. Sure, I'm a singer, author, businesswoman and podcaster, but at the end of the day, I am human. And that's why I'm sharing my ups and downs with you in real time and on the go. Listen to Jiggies and chill on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:41]
Craig Ferguson
In sitcoms, when someone has a problem, they just blurt it out and move on.
- [01:45]
Lawrence Block
Well, I lost my job and my parakeet is missing.
- [01:49]
Sarah Spain
How was your day?
- [01:51]
Craig Ferguson
But the real world is different. Managing life's challenges can be overwhelming. So what do we do? We get support. The Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council have mental health resources available for you at loveyourmindtoday.org that's loveyourmindtoday.org See how much further you can go when you take care of your mental health. This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, it's actually, it's about an hour and a Half. And I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while anyway. Come and see me live on the Pants on Fire tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and we'll be adding more as the Tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com See you on the road, my dears. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happ. Welcome to the Joy podcast. Welcome to the Kids Super Studios here in Brooklyn. I am your host, podcast's Craig Ferguson. My guest today is a great American writer. If you don't know his work, you're in for a treat. And if you do know his work, you're in for a treat. His name is Lawrence Block. He's a friend of mine. But more importantly than that. Well, it depends how you look at it. But he's just a great writer and you should read him if you like to read. And if you don't like to read, then just listen to him talking today. And if you do like to listen to people talking and like to. I'll let you get on with it. Here's Larry Block now. You told me like five minutes ago, ten minutes ago, maybe, when we were walking outside in the intense heat while we. While we've got a lot of beverages, right, because we had got the dates wrong for this recording specifically. You said it was Thursday. I said it was the 18th, but Thursday is the 17th. And so you were right about Thursday and I was right about the 18th. I think we can agree that that's fair.
- [04:04]
Lawrence Block
We're here now.
- [04:06]
Craig Ferguson
That's the main thing.
- [04:07]
Lawrence Block
All right, There you go.
- [04:08]
Craig Ferguson
So you said to me outside as we were walking towards the subway to maybe go home and come back tomorrow, that you are retired, you're not gonna write anymore. Is that right?
- [04:19]
Lawrence Block
That's true. I haven't written in. Gee, it's just about three years now.
- [04:25]
Craig Ferguson
I feel like I've had that from you before, though.
- [04:27]
Lawrence Block
No, no, no, no. There have been times I thought I was probably done writing novels and that, but this is categorically different. And it's curious in that in 2022, I wrote two novels. In the course of the one year, I wrote a book called the Burglar who Met Frederick Brown.
- [04:51]
Craig Ferguson
Right.
- [04:51]
Lawrence Block
Which is a nice way, I think.
- [04:55]
Craig Ferguson
I haven't read that one.
- [04:56]
Lawrence Block
Oh, well, what a treat you have in store.
- [04:58]
Craig Ferguson
I have a treat I have in store. Right. Don't tell me anything. No spoilers.
- [05:01]
Lawrence Block
All right, no spoilers. But it's a fitting volume, I think, to conclude the series on the Bernie series. The Bernie series, yes.
- [05:14]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, yeah. And you've done with Scudder. Scudder you finished a while back, right?
- [05:18]
Lawrence Block
No, I wrote a final volume of that in 2022 also.
- [05:24]
Craig Ferguson
I haven't read that either. I thought the Scudder one that you finished with was a drop of the.
- [05:29]
Lawrence Block
Hard stuff that had been the last one. But then.
- [05:33]
Craig Ferguson
So that's why I thought you'd retired before because you said, okay, that's Scudder done now.
- [05:37]
Lawrence Block
Well, it seemed to be, but this the new book, I thought I'd send it to you and I clearly did not.
- [05:46]
Craig Ferguson
Sorry, maybe I go, I'll get it tomorrow.
- [05:49]
Lawrence Block
It's called the Autobiography of Matthew Scudder.
- [05:52]
Craig Ferguson
I do not have that.
- [05:54]
Lawrence Block
And what it is is a fellow had approached me about doing a short, like a three or four thousand word biography of Scudder to write about the character. And I thought, I don't want to do that. And I thought about it a little more and I thought, if anyone's going to write Scudder's biography, it should be the man himself.
- [06:25]
Craig Ferguson
Right.
- [06:26]
Lawrence Block
And I thought about it a little more and realized that what I wanted to do was a full length book and it would be Scudder telling his story. And the premise was that I'd been approached to do this, that I. That Lawrence Block for years has been writing books about Matthew Scudder which have represented slight fictionalizations of his cases in that. And this is Scudder giving his own memories.
- [07:09]
Craig Ferguson
Do you go back over the books that you wrote for Scudder before particularly?
- [07:13]
Lawrence Block
So some of them are referenced, certainly, but it's more filling in blanks than about his life and background and everything else. It may be the most enjoyment and satisfaction I've ever had sitting down and writing. And it's, you know, it's kind of meta, which is a word I generally avoid using because I don't think I or anyone else knows exactly what it means.
- [07:44]
Craig Ferguson
It doesn't stop anyone else using it.
- [07:46]
Lawrence Block
No, it doesn't. You know, and once it became the Mark Zuckerberg's new name for oh yeah, for Facebook, it was even more reason not to use the word. But that kind of is what it is, is conceptually it's a device I've.
- [08:08]
Craig Ferguson
Seen before, though a few times. People use it from time to time in Literature. I remember Kurt Vonnegut used it with Kilgore Trout, didn't he? The other way around though, Kilgore kind of.
- [08:20]
Lawrence Block
Yeah, there was an awareness that way. But I think this is. I had thought that this was the first time that a writer had who after a long standing series had turned the.
- [08:38]
Craig Ferguson
I think it probably is not quite.
- [08:42]
Lawrence Block
Oh, it turned out that Simonone did something similar with McGregor.
- [08:48]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah.
- [08:49]
Lawrence Block
So I got a hold of a copy of that to see what it was like and fortunately. Well, fortunately for my ego it was lousy. It wasn't really.
- [09:00]
Craig Ferguson
Can I be honest with you? But Simon, a lot of those McRae books, I'm like, like you that could use a rewrite, pal.
- [09:06]
Lawrence Block
Yeah, a lot of them pumping out.
- [09:08]
Craig Ferguson
Like one a week, you know, but.
- [09:10]
Lawrence Block
But this wasn't, it wasn't terribly interesting. But anyway, I did have a good time with it and when I finished I thought, well, gee, that was nice. I wrote two books in the course of a year. I'm pleased with both of them. I had a good time doing them. I'll probably write more. And as the weeks passed it became clear to me that I was wrong about that, that I was done, that I felt really complete. This was a nice capstone for this gutter series. It was a nice ending to the Bernie series and I didn't want to write anymore. I'd been doing this all the time for 65 years. I've written more books than anybody could should read, let alone.
- [10:02]
Craig Ferguson
Have you any idea how many there are, do you know?
- [10:05]
Lawrence Block
Yes, because a fellow has done a marvelous job compiling a bibliography for me and his list of book titles, individual volumes of mine, which includes anthologies that I edited in that. And there are probably about close to a dozen of those, but it comes came to about 210 titles, something like that. That's a lot of books.
- [10:32]
Craig Ferguson
That's a lot of books. It's enough, you know, I feel I've written four. Yeah, well I. I think that's enough. Yeah, I think four is enough.
- [10:43]
Lawrence Block
Well, come to think of it, I. If I'd made that decision early on I'd have saved myself a lot of work. A lot of work.
- [10:49]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, but it's interesting, these two characters, Bernie Rodenbart, who's the kind of gentleman burglar.
- [10:55]
Lawrence Block
Right.
- [10:56]
Craig Ferguson
And Matt Scudder, the. In many ways an archetype for a lot of detectives who came after, you know, the hard bitten New York reformed drunk, bad past detective. Both of these guys have a long history with you. When did you start writing because, like, you started writing these guys in your 30s, right?
- [11:22]
Lawrence Block
I thought you meant the 1930s.
- [11:24]
Craig Ferguson
The 1930s. Did you start writing them in the 1930s? Say I'm a detective.
- [11:29]
Lawrence Block
See, right. I started writing them in. Within about a year of each other. The characters were conceived, and I started writing about them in the mid-70s.
- [11:48]
Craig Ferguson
It's interesting because I was a very. I was a huge fan of Scudder right away. And Bernie was a slower burn for me. Cause Bernie felt like it was a little more kind of almost PG Wodehouse in his kind of like light on his feet type fun character. And because I'd come to you through Matt Scudder, I was like the grimy. The New York streets and the. And the bad people and stuff. And then Bernie. I was kind of looking for that there. And it wasn't there, and it wasn't till I had the same thing with Woodhouse, though. The first couple I read, I was like, what the hell is this? And then once you get into it, you go, this is actually great. And actually, in a weird way, unbelievable. Right. And contains an odd skewering of the British upper classes that I didn't spot at first. I mean, but it's amazing. It's so wonderful.
- [12:44]
Lawrence Block
Yeah.
- [12:46]
Craig Ferguson
The kind of, like, the way he cuts up the kind of Downton Abbey set is fantastic.
- [12:53]
Lawrence Block
Yeah. He also evidently had a real resentment against older female relatives. Yes, for sure.
- [13:03]
Craig Ferguson
Do you do that in books? Do you put people in books that you're angry at? Like if you run across somebody. Do you ever do that with Bernie or with.
- [13:10]
Lawrence Block
No, no, I don't think I ever have. If I have, it's. It's slipped my mind as so many things, too.
- [13:18]
Craig Ferguson
But do you ever read a book and have no recollection of writing it?
- [13:22]
Lawrence Block
No. Well, that's not entirely true. Early on, I did a lot of erotic paperbacks, you know, under pen name. I did tons of those.
- [13:38]
Craig Ferguson
That was a way to earn money, right? It was like your only fans page.
- [13:42]
Lawrence Block
No, it was. You liked writing erotica was what I did. And, you know, the. It was. It was to make money, but they're all to make money.
- [13:53]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. It's your job. That's what you do.
- [13:58]
Lawrence Block
But some of those, in later years, I've. Because I'm shameless and because ego and avarice are my two motivators.
- [14:09]
Craig Ferguson
They're stoking horses, for sure.
- [14:11]
Lawrence Block
Yeah, absolutely. I've reprinted, both electronically and in printed form, all my early work. And I figure, why not? There are people who like them, and that's fine with me. But doing that, I've had to determine what books were mine. And there was a stretch there where I engaged other people to write books under my pen name.
- [14:46]
Craig Ferguson
Really?
- [14:46]
Lawrence Block
Yes, yes. This was back in the early to mid-60s. Okay. And some of those I don't remember immediately if I've written them or not. But it never takes more than reading a page for me to know whether it's my work.
- [15:11]
Craig Ferguson
Whether you wrote it or not. Yeah. I suppose if your output is like, it's a fairly prolific output, you can't remember all of it. I look at old episodes of late night shows. If something comes up from my old late night show on the Internet, I'm like, I have no recollection of that. None.
- [15:28]
Lawrence Block
I remember most of them. But there were stretches late in the game in, say, 1964 or so when I. There was one time when my second daughter. My daughter Jill was born and I had to pay the obstetrician. This was long enough ago so that people did not routinely have insurance and so that you could live without it.
- [16:01]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, right.
- [16:01]
Lawrence Block
Yeah. So I had to come up with $1,000 to pay the obstetrician. Now, of course, that would be the co. Pay, Right. If you had really excellent coverage.
- [16:15]
Craig Ferguson
If you had excellent coverage, yeah.
- [16:18]
Lawrence Block
So I called my then agent and I said, how can I earn $1,000 in a hurry? Because I want to pay this fellow's bill. And he said, well, I thank Bill Hamling, who was a publisher of mine at an outfit called Nightstand Books. He said, I'm sure he'd take an extra book from you this month. So I found three days and wrote it.
- [16:45]
Craig Ferguson
You wrote a book in three days?
- [16:46]
Lawrence Block
I did.
- [16:47]
Craig Ferguson
Was that any good?
- [16:48]
Lawrence Block
I have no idea.
- [16:51]
Craig Ferguson
Were you taking any stimulants? It was the 60s.
- [16:54]
Lawrence Block
Did you? No, no, I did occasionally, but not then. It was a little later that I started using Dexamel occasionally when I. When I wrote. But at this time, I wasn't using any stimulants. And I just. I just went to the office and typed for about eight hours the first day and about eight hours the second day and about five or six hours the third day, and then the book was done.
- [17:27]
Craig Ferguson
That's amazing.
- [17:28]
Lawrence Block
I. By 20 minutes after the book was done, I'd forgotten the names of all the characters. I mean, they didn't. They didn't occupy space in my head for very much time. There was no way to remember them.
- [17:42]
Craig Ferguson
Do you remember the name of the book? Because I'd like to read it.
- [17:44]
Lawrence Block
I don't know which one that was.
- [17:45]
Craig Ferguson
Oh because I feel like that would be a fascinating kind of almost like automatic writing. You know, the old spiritualist automatic writing thing. I mean it'd be kind of a real be an interesting exodus.
- [17:56]
Lawrence Block
None of them were written. Not at that speed, but frequently in a week.
- [18:02]
Craig Ferguson
I find that fascinating because they're especially the detective books in particular are very complicated.
- [18:08]
Lawrence Block
The plot not to take a break by any means.
- [18:15]
Craig Ferguson
Hello, this is Craig Ferguson and I want to let you know I have a brand new stand up comedy special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm so Happy and I would be so happy if you checked it out. To watch the special just go to my YouTube channel he Craig Ferguson show and it says right there just click it and play it and it's free. I can't look, I'm not going to come around your house and show you how to do it. If you can't do it, then you can't have it. But if you can figure it out, it's yours.
- [18:43]
Unknown Host
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Lawrence Block
Perfect.
- [19:56]
Unknown Host
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- [20:39]
Danny Shapiro
Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you. Stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:39]
Unknown Host
I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford and in session 421 of Therapy for Black Girls, I sit down with Dr. Afia and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health and the ways we heal.
- [21:52]
Lawrence Block
Because I think hair is a complex language system, right? In terms of it can tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from, your spiritual belief. But I think with social media there's like a hyper fixation and observation of our hair, right? That this is sometimes the first thing someone sees when we make a post or a reel. It's how our hair is styled.
- [22:14]
Unknown Host
We talk about the important role hairstylists play in our communities, the pressure to always look put together, and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying, don't miss session 418 with Dr. Angela Neal Barnett where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [22:42]
Craig Ferguson
You have a very emotive style, though. Even Bernie at first it was a mistaken identity for me with Bernie Rodenbauer at first cause I thought there was no depth to that and there's an extreme amount of depth in Bernie. And I feel like that you are very emotive as a writer. There's big sweeps, big human emotions in there. I remember in particular actually what was the small town, the one you wrote after 911 is an extremely. Almost like you were heartbroken when you wrote that book or something, or you were terrified.
- [23:19]
Lawrence Block
I kind of was. That was a time that imprinted itself rather deeply on one's consciousness.
- [23:30]
Craig Ferguson
Were you in New York during 9 11? Did you see it all happening?
- [23:34]
Lawrence Block
Yes, actually we were in line of sight of it.
- [23:37]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, because you're downtown, so.
- [23:38]
Lawrence Block
Yeah, on the high floor we saw it.
- [23:42]
Craig Ferguson
And that book, did that book happen in the aftermath of 9 11? Was it like in the space of weeks, months, days?
- [23:50]
Lawrence Block
It was a curious thing because it was a book that I had started before that and I'd written a chunk of it introducing several of the. A couple of the characters. I probably wrote about 120 pages of it before. And then after 911 I thought, well, I can throw this away because the world had changed in some fundamental ways and certainly the city had changed and a little time passed and sometime I think it was in the spring of 2002, so maybe six months after I thought about it and I thought because what my object there was to write for the first time for me a big multiple viewpoint novel set in New York with as much of New York as I could fit in it. And I thought, gee, I could still do this. I would probably want to rewrite almost everything in the beginning portion. But there are scenes there that work and there are characters who I find interesting. And I thought I don't want to write a book in which 911 happens. I want to write an aftermath book. Right. And did. And it was to what extent the book succeeds or fails, I don't know. I rarely know with my own stuff.
- [26:01]
Craig Ferguson
But what's the metric you use for that? How do you know if a book succeeds or fails?
- [26:07]
Lawrence Block
I don't.
- [26:08]
Craig Ferguson
So once you write it, it's done. It is what it is. And there's no kind of judgment on it?
- [26:16]
Lawrence Block
Not there isn't really, no. I, you know, I want them to do well, sure, you know, you want people to read them. I would just assume they'd be well received. That's incidentally brings to mind a very interesting effect of the retirement of not doing this anymore.
- [26:40]
Craig Ferguson
Okay.
- [26:41]
Lawrence Block
And it's not just that I'm not writing anymore, but that I'm detached from the whole career in a way I wouldn't have anticipated.
- [26:55]
Craig Ferguson
Is that A product of aging. Do you think.
- [26:59]
Lawrence Block
Everything in my existence is still one way or another a product of aging. But also it's part of it is that my life as a writer feels like a closed chapter.
- [27:19]
Craig Ferguson
Right.
- [27:20]
Lawrence Block
And I'm very grateful that I got to spend those years doing that.
- [27:26]
Craig Ferguson
It's like 65 years. Right?
- [27:27]
Lawrence Block
Yeah. And I'm very grateful that I got to write all those books. The good, the bad and the indifferent. But, but I'm, I'm detached from them in an odd way. I don't too much care now what anybody thinks of them. I know they won't outlast my lifetime by any means. Substantial margin. Nobody's do really and that's fine. The thing is that's fine.
- [28:11]
Craig Ferguson
I kind of feel with a book.
- [28:13]
Lawrence Block
I remember.
- [28:15]
Craig Ferguson
The first book I wrote. I remember you were very kindly read an early draft of it and you let. It was interesting because it's the only novel I've written so far. And it's an unusual book. And you said it's an unusual book. And you sent me a copy of a book that you had written years and years ago which is also a very unusual book called the Long Walk.
- [28:43]
Lawrence Block
The Random Walk. Yes, the Random Walk. The Random Walk, that's right.
- [28:46]
Craig Ferguson
And the Random Walk is such a weird out of time, out of style book for you.
- [28:54]
Lawrence Block
Everything.
- [28:54]
Craig Ferguson
I know what was going on with that. I mean it's a very kind. It's almost like magical realism or something going on in there.
- [29:03]
Lawrence Block
It was a very strange experience.
- [29:05]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah.
- [29:07]
Lawrence Block
Lynn and I had gone on our first really adventurous trip. We went on a trip that was under the auspices of the Institute for the Advancement or something of Noetic Sciences. Whatever the hell it was. It was, it was, was an outfit founded by Edgar Mitchell when he came back from the moon.
- [29:33]
Craig Ferguson
What is noetic science?
- [29:34]
Lawrence Block
I don't know. Okay, I, I forget. I, I, it's fine.
- [29:38]
Craig Ferguson
Somebody on the Internet.
- [29:39]
Lawrence Block
That's right. I at one point could have supplied a, a definition of the word. But it's, it's remarkable enough that I can recall the word.
- [29:48]
Craig Ferguson
Miles, do you any idea what noetic science is?
- [29:51]
Unknown Host
I just read it.
- [29:52]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. All right. Okay.
- [29:54]
Unknown Host
So disciplinary study that brings scientific tools and techniques together to basically solve the subjective inner knowing study of nature, of reality.
- [30:04]
Lawrence Block
There we are.
- [30:04]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah.
- [30:05]
Lawrence Block
Wow.
- [30:05]
Craig Ferguson
There you go.
- [30:05]
Lawrence Block
There we are. Anyway, they, they had this trip to Africa, right.
- [30:12]
Craig Ferguson
That's where you go with, with just.
- [30:14]
Lawrence Block
About, just about eight or 10 of us on the whole trip. And we started, we spent a lot of time in Togo and One thing we did in Togo was we met with a fellow named Akwete, who was. I think he had a German father and Togolese mother. And he'd grown up there. He'd gone to school some in Germany and at the Sorbonne, he qualified as a doctor. He decided that that wasn't really where he was. And he became this spiritual healer and conductor of voodoo type ceremonies in Lome and Togo. And we met him and he was a powerful personality. And he did this whole thing with. Afterward. One of the things I sort of hoped for was that a new direction in my writing would come out of this okay. So it ended. And then we went other places in Africa. We went to Cote d' Ivoire and we went to Mali. And we had a good time. And we came home and I had booked a session, a space at a writer's colony, the first time I'd ever done that. A retreat where you can go for two weeks or a month or whatever it is.
- [31:54]
Craig Ferguson
And what do you do? You hang with other writers, or you.
- [31:57]
Lawrence Block
You hang with other writers to whatever extent you want. But what it mostly is that they supply a room for you to work in, a room for you to sleep in, and three meals a day, and you go there to work. So I've met some people I've become very fond of at Reuters colonies, but that was never the point. The point always is to go there to work. And I had the space booked and I thought, I have to go there. It's my first time at a colony. What the hell am I going to write? And I thought, well, there was a. A burglar book I sort of had in mind.
- [32:40]
Craig Ferguson
Had you started the Bernie series yet?
- [32:42]
Lawrence Block
Oh, yeah. The Bernie series had gone on for a while. This. This would have been 77, okay. No, pardon me. This would have been 87, okay. Yeah. And I. So I. I thought it would be nice if there was something else that I. I could write that I had more firmly in mind. And I was sitting one day, we were living in Florida at the time, and I suddenly had this vision of people walking through the mountains, across whatever. And bits and pieces started coming to me over the next several days. And I thought, well, you know, I don't have a book here because this is a complicated book, but maybe I've got enough of a beginning so that I can spend my time at the colony roughing it out, making some sort of outline. And it was about two weeks from that time that I drove up to the colony. It was in Virginia, and I'd Been thinking about the book throughout, and it wasn't so exactly that I'd been thinking about it as things were coming to me. Okay. And I got to the colony. I was assigned my room. I was assigned my office, and I went to sleep. I got up the next day, I went to my office, and I wrote 20 pages of a novel. And I did that every day for the next 23 days. That'll do it. 20 pages a day. That's a lot. Every day I woke up knowing what would happen in the book that day. That's insane. Though. Not necessarily the day after that. And when I was done, that was Random Walk. I've never had an experience at all like that before or since.
- [35:17]
Craig Ferguson
It's an interesting thing. And it's funny because the way you describe it, the novel that I'm talking about that you were called, between the Bridge and the river, that I wrote, is a very similar experience. I would wake up in the morning not knowing what was gonna happen, but interested to find out. And so I would have these characters, and there was disparate plot lines, and I was thinking, I wonder what's gonna happen today? And I would write it down to find out. And it was an odd. Excuse me, an odd sensation of not having planned out the book at the end of it. Cause anything I've written since then has been autobiographical or anecdotal, with the exception of a short story I wrote for you for that Edward Hopper collection. So I know what happens because I was there when it happened. So if I elaborate the story or if I tell a little bit of this and that about. It doesn't really. You know, it's me doing what I want to do as I embellish a story, which I know has already happened, but I didn't have that experience with that book. It was a very odd thing. And I talked to Stephen King about that experience, and he said that when he was writing the Shining, he was also getting sober at the same time.
- [36:36]
Lawrence Block
I didn't know that.
- [36:36]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. And it's very interesting because you go back and read that book with him just flippantly saying, at the time, I was getting sober at that time, having gone through getting sober myself. And I know you were sober, too. It takes on a completely different perspective, even looking at the movie, which I don't think he likes, but it's all very different. If you look at the lens, through the monster of. Of alcoholism, it's like, oh, my God. It's fascinating. But he said about that, that he felt there was all this stuff outside waiting to get through and he just had to kind of get it through for that book. I thought it was a fascinating way to look at it. I wonder how often that happens to people, even if you write 210 books or wherever it is and it's happened to you once that way.
- [37:30]
Lawrence Block
I frequently don't know where I most of the time don't know when I start a book, exactly where it's going to go when it evolves. But this was as close as I ever came to having what you might call a channeled book, right? It's not as though I felt as felt like I was taking celestial dictation. It was very clear to me that I was making the choices and everything else. It was somehow categorically different from other writing experiences I've had.
- [38:06]
Unknown Host
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- [39:06]
I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford and in session 421 of Therapy for Black Girls, I sit down with Dr. Afia and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health and the ways we heal.
- [39:19]
Lawrence Block
Because I think hair is a complex language system, right? In terms of it can tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from, your spiritual belief. But I think with social media there's like a hyper fixation and observation of our hair, right? That this is sometimes the first thing someone sees when we make a post or a reel is how our hair is styled.
- [39:40]
Unknown Host
And we talk about the important role hairstylists play in our community, the pressure to always look put together and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying, don't miss session 418 with Dr. Angela Neil Barnett, where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to therapy for black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [40:06]
Danny Shapiro
Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you. Stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets. Listen to Family Secrets, Season 12 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [41:07]
Sarah Spain
Get fired up, y'.
- [41:08]
Lawrence Block
All.
- [41:08]
Sarah Spain
Season 2 of Good Game with Sarah Spain is underway. We just welcomed one of my favorite people and an incomparable soccer icon, Megan Rapinoe to the show and we had a blast. We talked about her recent 40th birthday celebrations, Co hosting a podcast with her fiance sue, bird watching former teammates retire, and more. Never a dull moment with Pino. Take a listen. What do you miss the most about being a pro athlete? The final. The final. And the locker room. I really, really like you. Just, you can't replicate. You can't get back. Showing up to the locker room every morning just to talk. We've got more incredible guests like the legendary Candace Parker and Colleen superstar Az Fudd. I mean, seriously, y', all, the guest list is absolutely stacked for season two. And you know, we're always going to keep you up to speed on all the news and happenings around the women's sports world as well. So make sure you listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [42:07]
Lawrence Block
Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.
- [42:14]
Craig Ferguson
It Came in youn Love. You're talking about the noetic science trip to Africa, and clearly there was some kind of. You were, you know, I was going to say it sounds dismissive, but you were, you know, in some kind of spiritual search at that point in your life. Yeah. Is that. Or am I putting words in Your mouth.
- [42:33]
Lawrence Block
I know if I was, but it certainly worked out that way.
- [42:38]
Craig Ferguson
What was the process of that trance like state? Were there stimulants? Were there drugs? Were there, were.
- [42:44]
Lawrence Block
There was sort of verbal thing to take, but you didn't feel that it was a drug experience. And there were lots of people around in there and dancing and things like that. It's hard for me to remember all that clearly, but in ways it was transformational. Lyn had had not a delusion, but a sense for years that just out of the corner, in the corner of her eye, there would be a huge snake.
- [43:32]
Craig Ferguson
Okay.
- [43:34]
Lawrence Block
And she knew, like in her life.
- [43:36]
Craig Ferguson
She was thinking that all the time.
- [43:38]
Lawrence Block
Frequently it would happen. She knew it wasn't there.
- [43:41]
Craig Ferguson
Right.
- [43:42]
Lawrence Block
You know, she was never delusional or anything, but she just had this sense of a presence, you know.
- [43:49]
Craig Ferguson
Right.
- [43:51]
Lawrence Block
And so she mentioned that to Akwete and he said, you know, he gave her something. He said, take this and participate in the ceremony and you will possess the snake, the serpent, the power, whatever. So she did. And she never had the sense that there was the snake again. Yeah. And she did feel a kind of empowerment after that. She realized that she hadn't before. So I'm willing to believe that he did things, you know, keep an open mind about it.
- [44:43]
Craig Ferguson
Sure.
- [44:43]
Lawrence Block
I wrote a story. The hell did I call it? I wrote a story in which there's a character like, based on Akoete. I hardly ever pattern characters after specific people, but here I. I felt comfortable doing it. I called him Atuele, I think, in that. And again, it's set in Lome, in Togo, and it's sort of a piece of spy fiction somewhat, but it's in my big collection, Enough Rope. I'll send you an E file of the story.
- [45:30]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, I must have read it because the. Give him Enough Rope. I've. Yeah, I've read that collection.
- [45:36]
Lawrence Block
Yeah. But in context it might be. Yeah, yeah, I'll send that to.
- [45:43]
Craig Ferguson
Do you know, one that springs to mind as well? And I think this might be a story that's in that collection, the Merciful angel of Death.
- [45:53]
Lawrence Block
Yeah. That was a Scudder story, Right.
- [45:55]
Craig Ferguson
And it was in the. It was a Scudder short story though, right?
- [45:58]
Lawrence Block
Yeah.
- [45:59]
Craig Ferguson
And it was the kind of fascinating look at a period in time. That's why I think your idea that the canon of your work will not outlast you by much is perhaps not as accurate as you think it is from my perspective. Because there is a huge sweep of time. Those 65 years that you documented some very profound moments in the history of that time. The AIDS crisis, 9 11, the changing of this city that goes through the life of Matt Scudder, the detective who is crushed by a mistake he makes and taken in the context of New York. And I'm amazed I haven't read the autobiography of Scudder because I thought I'd read everything, so that is a treat.
- [46:54]
Lawrence Block
But I will send you do ebooks work for you.
- [46:59]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, yeah. I actually read a Kindle book.
- [47:02]
Lawrence Block
So do I. Yeah, I will send all of those to sephj.
- [47:07]
Craig Ferguson
Do you self publish this stuff now? Yeah, I think more and more I talk to authors like, yeah, why would I bother with.
- [47:14]
Lawrence Block
Yeah, you know, the big publishing industry now I think may do a good job with commercially important books on a level that I don't play at anyway, or didn't. And I just found it so much simpler and more straightforward and everything to publish the books myself. And that way they don't. You don't make much money that way, but you don't make much money anyway.
- [47:51]
Craig Ferguson
No, I know. It's kind of a thing, though, that it has rewards because listen, I think I made as much on that novel as I'd make for a Wednesday night in a casino in Ohio. You know what I mean? But I don't remember the Wednesday night casino guy guy. I remember the journey I went on the novel. It's a different. And it's hard sometimes, especially I think when you're young and you want to make your bones. Maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but it's hard to appreciate, or it was for me, hard to appreciate the value of something that had no real intrinsic financial value. And I remember you said you and I had lunch once and I was talking about money and you said that because I was getting hosed down with it at the time. I remember it was during the end of Late Night and all that kind of stuff. And you said the danger of having a lot of money coming at you is you start thinking that it's the only thing that matters. And it was for a little while. I thought about it and it kind of stuck with me. Do you ever think I could have, should have, would have made more money or should have been more.
- [49:13]
Lawrence Block
But the thing is, I've often had the thought, sure, yeah. Because I look at my career and there never were any big dramatic financial successes, really.
- [49:31]
Craig Ferguson
Not even with the Scudder series, like when the Matt Scudder movie, the Liam Neeson and all that.
- [49:36]
Lawrence Block
I made a decent living but never, you know, never. There were no. I think one book inched its way onto the Times bestseller list, but that's. That's. That's all, you know, and lots of people whom I've known and been friendly with, you know, have. Have made big money. Right. Sure. To keep it in proportion. Most have made nothing. And I've thought about that, and one thing that struck me was that if I'd had big early success, I'm sure I wouldn't have kept writing for 65 years. Yeah.
- [50:25]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah.
- [50:25]
Lawrence Block
And also, it's hard to know how much you tell yourself because you want to hear it, but I'm kind of. I'm happy with the way things turned out. I think I reached just about the level of success that was best for me.
- [50:51]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, I understand that. I think, because especially people like us who have taken the kind of the alcoholic bronco for a while, that I've seen people who succeed so much after they get sober that they don't do so well with it. And there may be. I mean, there's been decisions I've made when I thought I don't care enough about this and I feel like it might be dangerous. And there have been times when I have been achieved and it's usually some financial or some kind of kudos that makes me forget something I heard in a meeting in Glasgow when a woman said. An old lady said to me, she's probably the same age as I am now, but like you say, but she said, aye, son, if you forget what you are, if you forget what you are, it'll not matter who you are because you won't be there.
- [51:58]
Lawrence Block
Okay.
- [51:59]
Craig Ferguson
And I think that the idea of the success that's appropriate for what you can handle is a nice one. It's a way of maintaining some kind of gratitudinal equilibrium, which is a phrase that I picked up in my.
- [52:17]
Lawrence Block
Nice one.
- [52:18]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. In my. Where did I get that? In the science thing. What did we call that science thing?
- [52:24]
Lawrence Block
Noetic.
- [52:24]
Craig Ferguson
Noetic science. It's my noetic science phrase, gratitudinal equilibrium. But what about now? You said to me when we were hanging around outside, you said you feel like you're happier now than you've ever been. You think that's right?
- [52:41]
Lawrence Block
I think I'm having a better time these days than I can recall and I'm enjoying the life I'm leading in retirement. As I think I mentioned before, I've become an absolute gym rat. I met my local gym.
- [53:02]
Craig Ferguson
What do you do? You lift weights and walk around I.
- [53:05]
Lawrence Block
Do, I do weights work and I generally put in about a half hour on the treadmill. Wow. And you know, I'm, I'm in and out and about an hour and a half.
- [53:19]
Craig Ferguson
Is, Is, is that something you get into after the old, the heart thing?
- [53:23]
Lawrence Block
No, no. I got into, you know, I don't have many regrets, but one thing I can find myself regretting is that I didn't get into working with weights when I was a teenager because I was a terrible athlete. I was hopeless at sports and all of that. But lifting weights, that I could have done and I think I could have enjoyed it and stayed with it and things like that. As it is that I, I got into it finally when I was about 40 and, and have, you know, there have been times when we didn't live in era gym or where, where I, I didn't go that frequently, but I've, I've been a member where I am now for about almost 25 years. Right. I joined this gym shortly after 9, 11, and I'd been going to another one in the neighborhood before that, but it closed and, and I, I really enjoy it.
- [54:37]
Craig Ferguson
You know, I, I, I started lifting weights. I hadn't done it for years. I really love the sensation of having done it.
- [54:45]
Lawrence Block
Yes. You know that your body feels good.
- [54:48]
Craig Ferguson
It does. It's kind of, it, it has a kind of Percocet vibe. You know what I mean? It's like you get to the other end, you go, I feel kind of. Everything's okay.
- [54:56]
Lawrence Block
Yep, yep.
- [54:57]
Craig Ferguson
You don't get high so much, just kind of like, oh, okay, I can handle it.
- [55:02]
Lawrence Block
Absolutely.
- [55:03]
Craig Ferguson
Also, the feeling of serenity that comes after physical exhaustion, it's pretty good.
- [55:11]
Lawrence Block
Very true.
- [55:11]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah. And I still, I find myself even now, I've been sober. You've been sober longer than me. I've been sober 33 years. I don't know. You've been sober like, I don't know, 100 or something.
- [55:21]
Lawrence Block
47.
- [55:22]
Craig Ferguson
47 years. Right. So the.
- [55:25]
Lawrence Block
Pardon me. 48.
- [55:27]
Craig Ferguson
48 years. It's a long time.
- [55:31]
Lawrence Block
It's a long time for anything.
- [55:33]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, it really is. But you know, the thing is about it is that even now, after all this time, I don't know about you, like, if I have to go and get any kind of medical procedure done, which kind of, as one gets older, you know, it kind of like clicks up when they have that moment when they're going to put you under. But I can see the drip in my arm and the anesthetist says, okay, you're going to feel a little dizzy or woozy or you'll feel this. I want you to count backwards that moment when that drop goes into the iv. I live for that fucking moment. I live for that fucking moment. So when they say, oh, you're going to need a scope or a thing, I'm like, okay, is the propofol involved? Because I'm there. And that when they drop that thing, because I can't have it, you know, I can't have it unless I, you know, But. But when they drop that. I remember I even said to the guy, the last time I had done this a couple of years ago, I said to the anesthetist, he said, okay, you're gonna. I'm just gonna drop this in when you count backwards. And as he. The drop went in, I said, can I stay here? Just before I. Just before I left. It's funny, I still feel the call of it. You still feel it's not the call? No. Booze doesn't call to me. Not in that kind of a way, I don't. But the idea of some kind of relief sometimes calls to me.
- [57:02]
Lawrence Block
Some sort of altered state.
- [57:04]
Craig Ferguson
Yeah, a little bit. Maybe it's time for me to go to togo and. And trance it out.
- [57:11]
Lawrence Block
Oh, he's gone. Jeez.
- [57:13]
Craig Ferguson
So let me ask you now then, because we're about out of time, but just before we go, I want to ask you what is. Given the fact you wrote books for stories, you wrote everything for 65 years, and now you don't write at all. What do you do?
- [57:31]
Lawrence Block
Well, as I said, I go, of course, go to the gym.
- [57:34]
Craig Ferguson
You go to the gym?
- [57:36]
Lawrence Block
I read, I listen to music. I hang out with my wife, who's a lovely woman.
- [57:46]
Craig Ferguson
So that makes sense.
- [57:47]
Lawrence Block
Indeed. That's. That's a delight.
- [57:50]
Craig Ferguson
Patient, I would imagine, as well. Patient.
- [57:53]
Lawrence Block
Oh, she would have to do it.
- [57:54]
Craig Ferguson
She would.
- [57:55]
Lawrence Block
She would have to be. As a saint.
- [57:59]
Craig Ferguson
She is kind of.
- [58:00]
Lawrence Block
Yeah. Yeah. And we travel. We travel quite a bit. Not as adventurous as in the past because.
- [58:14]
Craig Ferguson
No Africa trips more or what?
- [58:18]
Lawrence Block
Mostly cruises. Right. But we spent, I think, two weeks in Tasmania. Wow. And a cruise around Tasmania earlier this year.
- [58:34]
Craig Ferguson
That's a long flight.
- [58:37]
Lawrence Block
Yes. And I decided that even though it was a perfectly comfortable flight and we had a decent enough time, and I hate flying. I hate airports. I hate the whole experience.
- [58:50]
Craig Ferguson
I mean, I. I love it and hate it.
- [58:52]
Lawrence Block
It's weird. And. And this one was, I don't know, know, 16 hours, however long it was. I thought. I don't think I have to do that again. Yeah, yeah.
- [59:01]
Craig Ferguson
Especially if you get to somewhere. I've never been to Tasmania, but I can imagine you could probably get a similar effect geographically by not leaving the continental United States. Am I right?
- [59:16]
Lawrence Block
Probably. We did like Tasmania, I must say. Hobert's and very livable city. And we enjoyed the cruise and everything, but it's too far away.
- [59:31]
Craig Ferguson
It's too far away. Not for the Tasmanians. Let's be fair from their point of view. It's right there.
- [59:35]
Lawrence Block
It is.
- [59:36]
Craig Ferguson
It's right there. They're fine. Larry, it's great to catch up with you, pal. More power to you. Keep going to the gym and I'll speak to you soon.
- [59:44]
Lawrence Block
Excellent. It's so good to see you.
- [59:46]
Craig Ferguson
It's lovely to see you.
- [60:00]
Sarah Spain
Get fired up, y'.
- [60:01]
Craig Ferguson
All.
- [60:01]
Sarah Spain
Season 2 of Good Game with Sarah Spain is underway. We just welcomed one of my favorite people, an incomparable soccer icon Megan Rapinoe, to the show and we had a blast. Take a look. Listen, sue and I were like riding the lime bikes the other day and we're like, wee people ride bikes because it's fun. We got more incredible guests like Megan in store, plus news of the day and more. So make sure you listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network.
- [60:37]
Unknown Host
What's up, guys? Welcome to the Agusto Papa podcast. The go to spot for everything Musica Mexicana. We're proud Mexican Americans who live and breath this music. We started this podcast to share and discuss our views of musica Mexicana. Whether you like to vibe to Peso, Pluma los al Camacho, or put Ivan Cornejo when you get in feels, then this podcast is for you. Well, actually, Peso was supposed to be on Chinito's album. The song with Drake was supposed to be with Peso. Listen to agaGustopa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [61:07]
Janae Cheekies
Hey guys, it's Jana, AKA Cheekies from Cheekies and Chill Podcast. And I'm bringing you an all new mini podcast series called Sincerely Janae. Sure, I'm a singer, author, businesswoman and podcaster, but at the end of the day, I am human and that's why I'm sharing my ups and downs with you in real time and on the go. Listen to Jiggies and chill on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [61:37]
Unknown Host
Don't let biased algorithms or degree screens or exclusive professional networks or stereotypes. Don't let anything keep you from discovering the half of the workforce who are stars workers skilled through alternative routes rather.
- [61:54]
Craig Ferguson
Than a bachelor's degree.
- [61:55]
Unknown Host
It's time to tear the paper ceiling and see the stars beyond it. Find out how you can make stars part of your talent strategy at tear the paper ceiling.org brought to you by opportunity at work in the ad council.
- [62:06]
This is an iHeart podcast.