Rita Wilson

Summary

Podcast Title: Joy
Host: Craig Ferguson
Guest: Tom Brokaw
Episode Release Date: June 3, 2025
Platform: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In this episode of Joy, host Craig Ferguson engages in an enlightening conversation with renowned journalist Tom Brokaw. The discussion delves into topics such as faith, sobriety, personal transformations, and the sources of joy in their lives.

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Exploring Faith and the Greek Orthodox Church

Timestamp: 04:05 – 09:08

Craig initiates the conversation by sharing his recent fascination with pre-Roman Church Christianity and the Greek Orthodox Church. This curiosity stems from his personal journey toward sobriety and understanding deeper spiritual connections.

• Craig Ferguson [04:05]:
  "I have become fascinated recently with pre Roman Church Christianity... I'm reading everything I can about it."

Tom elaborates on the distinctions between the Greek Orthodox Church and Catholicism, emphasizing the absence of a central pope in Orthodoxy and the different focus on the Resurrection over the Crucifixion.

• Tom Brokaw [06:27]:
  "In Greek Orthodoxy, priests can marry and have children. This is important, especially when discussing marriage from personal experience."

He also touches upon the cultural and historical aspects, such as the impact of the Ottoman Empire on religious practices and identities.

---

Personal Journeys and Sobriety

Timestamp: 15:34 – 19:06

The discussion transitions to sobriety, with Craig sharing his 31-year journey of staying sober. He recounts the story of Roland Hazzard, whose struggle with alcoholism and subsequent treatment by Carl Jung inspired the foundations of Alcoholics Anonymous.

• Craig Ferguson [17:00]:
  "Roland Hazard was a drunk from a rich family... Carl Jung said, I think you're gonna die."

Tom reflects on the miraculous transformations he has witnessed in those overcoming addiction, attributing significant changes to profound psychological and spiritual experiences.

• Tom Brokaw [16:31]:
  "It's like one day you're this, and the next day you're somebody completely different."

---

Family Heritage and Immigrant Experiences

Timestamp: 24:02 – 31:54

Tom shares the poignant history of his family's immigrant background, detailing his father's experiences in Bulgaria and the hardships faced during and after the war. This segment highlights the resilience and sacrifices made by immigrant families to build a new life in the United States.

• Tom Brokaw [25:12]:
  "They were Christians... they were told that they had to change their religion, convert to Islam... and change their names."

He recounts the tragic loss of his father's firstborn son, Emile, and the subsequent struggles the family faced, emphasizing the deep emotional scars left by these events.

---

Hobbies, Creativity, and Sources of Joy

Timestamp: 53:05 – 71:22

The conversation shifts to personal hobbies and creative outlets that bring joy to both Craig and Tom. Tom discusses his passion for watercolor painting and songwriting, illustrating how these activities provide a fulfilling escape and a way to express himself creatively.

• Tom Brokaw [65:21]:
  "Watercolor painting gives me so much joy... It allows me to express myself in a creative way."

Craig shares his love for stand-up comedy and flying, detailing his journey to overcome fear of flying by learning to pilot his own plane. He recounts a memorable flying lesson with actor Kurt Russell, which significantly reduced his anxiety about flying.

• Craig Ferguson [45:00]:
  "After about seven hours of flying instruction, Kurt said, 'Land the plane.' I was terrified, but I did it."

---

Reflections on Change and Modern Life

Timestamp: 34:24 – 42:35

Both hosts reflect on the evolution of Los Angeles and Hollywood, noting how technological advancements and population growth have transformed the city. They discuss the loss of the "Hollywood mystique" and the increasing challenges that come with a bustling metropolis.

• Tom Brokaw [38:04]:
  "I think LA is like 20 million. That's like bigger than some countries."

They also touch upon the importance of maintaining personal connections and the impact of digital media on human interactions, expressing a preference for analog experiences like vinyl records and handwritten notes.

• Craig Ferguson [56:07]:
  "I listen to my music on vinyl now... I love the crackle and smell of it."

---

Embracing Joy through Continuous Creation

Timestamp: 66:04 – 71:22

In the closing segments, Tom emphasizes the significance of continuous creation and pursuing passions despite fears and past setbacks. He encourages embracing new challenges as sources of joy and personal growth.

• Tom Brokaw [67:13]:
  "It's never too late. You just gotta keep creating and keep doing it."

Craig echoes this sentiment, sharing his own experiences with stand-up comedy and how overcoming fears has led to new avenues of joy and fulfillment.

• Craig Ferguson [69:00]:
  "Stand-up comedy was like an instrument for me... it's what I love to do."

---

Notable Quotes

• Craig Ferguson [15:38]:
  "I got sober when I was 29. It's one of the reasons why I became fascinated with religion, because the longer I'm sober, the more I think that's kind of a miracle."

• Tom Brokaw [16:31]:
  "I have seen people transform their lives, and it's because of that, it's like one day you're this, and the next day you're somebody completely different."

• Craig Ferguson [39:07]:
  "I always believed in the myth of Hollywood until I started doing the late night show."

• Tom Brokaw [52:47]:
  "I really feel like being outside is heaven for me. It's almost like a meditation."

---

Conclusion

In this heartfelt episode, Craig Ferguson and Tom Brokaw explore the multifaceted nature of joy, intertwining personal narratives with broader reflections on faith, resilience, and the pursuit of happiness. Their candid dialogue offers listeners insights into overcoming adversity, embracing creativity, and finding joy amidst life's challenges.

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Note: This summary is based on the provided transcript and may not fully align with the intended guest or episode details. For the most accurate information, please refer to the official podcast episode.

Transcript

[Craig Ferguson]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Tom Brokaw]

NBC Nightly News legacy isn't handed down or NBC News. I'm Tom Brokaw.

[Craig Ferguson]

We hope to see you back here. I'm Lester Holt. It's carried forward. Tom Yamas is there for us.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Firefighters are still working around the clock.

[Craig Ferguson]

As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with breaking news right now. We look for a constant and from one era to the next, Trust is the anchor for NBC Nightly News. I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom yamas evenings on NBC.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Craig Ferguson]

This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, it's actually, it's about an hour and a half and I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while anyway. Come and see me live on the Pants on fire tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and we'll be adding more as the Tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com See you on the road, my dears. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. Meet Rita Wilson. She's a producer, she's an actress, and she's a hell of a laug. I was just thinking on the way here today, I thought because the traffic was bad. I know. You know the traffic is bad. And I was, I was a little grumpy and I thought, I'm a bit grumpy today. I'm a little. I'm a man called Craig today. That was such a great film.

[Tom Brokaw]

Which one?

[Craig Ferguson]

The man called Auto.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

I was a man called Craig. At the end. I was like. I was very cranky.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Where did you find that?

[Tom Brokaw]

Fortunately, it came in a DVD packet through the Academy. When you're doing. It was another movie then it was. I saw the Swedish film first.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, I thought you got the script or something.

[Tom Brokaw]

No, we developed the script, but I found it through the Swedish movie and then I realized there was a book to it, so immediately tried to get the rights to the book, which we were able to do, and then got a great team together. I love that movie.

[Craig Ferguson]

Really good.

[Tom Brokaw]

I love that.

[Craig Ferguson]

You directed that movie. You directed the movie, right?

[Tom Brokaw]

No, produced it.

[Craig Ferguson]

Produced it.

[Tom Brokaw]

Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

Which as everybody knows, if you're really in show business, you know, you really did the job.

[Tom Brokaw]

You know what? I can be unequivocally honest about that and say, yes, true it is.

[Craig Ferguson]

Cause the only one time I directed a movie and I didn't produce it, I've only done like three or something, but I directed a movie and I was like, this is. Everybody's telling me stuff and they're getting in my way. And then I realized the people that were getting in my way were the producers. And I'm much happier being the producer than being the director. It's too hard.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes, it's true.

[Craig Ferguson]

So let me ask you Cause there was a thing I wanted to ask you about, which is, you're the only person I know now, I'll preface this by saying I have become fascinated recently with pre Roman Church Christianity. Oh, just fascinated by it. I'm reading everything I can about it. I've become totally obsessed with it, as is my one. And you're the only person I know who I think is in the Greek Orthodox Church.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right, I am.

[Craig Ferguson]

Which is the split. Now you tell me, you tell me, what's the difference between that? If you can. And I don't wanna force you into theological. But I know that the split happened roundabout, then you can't.

[Tom Brokaw]

I'm so bad at history, I really am. But I will tell you what I believe is what I understand to be some of the differences.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

And in Greek Orthodoxy, which was the older religion.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right. The Byzantine stuff.

[Tom Brokaw]

Exactly. Was before Catholicism, before the schism. What happened in the schism, I think, is that the Catholics wanted to form a different form of Christianity. And what Greek Orthodox don't have is a pope. So we don't have a person that we say this, you're the top guy. You're the top guy. And everybody, you know, you talk directly.

[Craig Ferguson]

To God, which the Christians didn't have either.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right. And so I think that's one of the differences. Secondly, this is my own observation. Having a lot of Catholic friends and going to a lot of Catholic churches in my youth is in the Greek Orthodox Church, we don't really focus so much on the crucifixion as we do the Resurrection.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

And I think that's interesting because if you walk into a Greek Orthodox cathedral or church, you often will see pictures of Christ carrying the cross on his back, or you will see pictures of him with the disciples or the apostles. There is always a story told of the life of Jesus in the church. And there you will find one picture of him on the cross being crucified.

[Craig Ferguson]

So it's part of the story. It's not like.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. Which I think is just. I don't know if that's my own observation or if that there's intention to that.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know what I noticed when I was in Italy, I don't know, a couple of years ago, I go there a lot because I love it. And I noticed that the beautiful artwork, you know, in the Vatican or in the bigger Catholic churches in Italy, the very impressive artwork is not mirrored in the rural churches. And you see some really crap pictures. It's really fantastic. Like, I went to church and I was like, what's that. And he said that's this is the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus. And I'm like, that, to me, looks like a bear climbing a fence. It doesn't look anything like it. And I love the idea that there's valiant efforts by people who are not as talented to make. Because of course, not everybody's a great artist just because they're depicting the crucifixion or the Resurrection. But here's the thing.

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, there's also one other thing in the Church. In our church, Greek Orthodoxy, priests can marry a priest and they can have children. And I think this is important, especially if you're going to talk to someone about your marriage. How does someone know what a marriage is like if they've never experienced having a relationship with someone? And I believe that if you are a priest, if you are married and then become a priest, it's fine that you're married. But if you become a priest, you then cannot get married after the fact.

[Craig Ferguson]

Is that in the Catholic Church.

[Tom Brokaw]

In the Catholic Church, priests can't marry at all.

[Craig Ferguson]

Can't marry at all. But that was only. That was from the Second Vatican Council or something in 700. That was because of priests were leaving their, you know, their inheritance to their children.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's right.

[Craig Ferguson]

And the Church wanted it.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's right.

[Craig Ferguson]

So it was not really no. 1 celibacy. I mean, as a spiritual aesthetic, goes back to Buddhist aesthetics and pre Roman Christianity. Because I became fascinated about it. Because I think there's someone at the door with coffee. Actually, hold on.

[Tom Brokaw]

It's the priests. They're coming to get us.

[Craig Ferguson]

Hey, wait a minute. You say a bad thing about some of the art in Italy.

[Tom Brokaw]

Thank you.

[Craig Ferguson]

Thank you.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's so great.

[Craig Ferguson]

So there's this guy I've become fascinated by. His name is.

[Tom Brokaw]

And I want to know why you became fascinated with the Greek Orthodox Church.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, it's not so much the Greek Orthodox, but I don't know enough about the Greek. I've been surrounded by Catholicism my whole life. I'm not a Catholic, but I grew up in Scotland. There's a lot of Catholics around, and I have friends who are Catholics. And so it wasn't mysterious to me, but I didn't really have much contact with anyone who was in Greek Orthodoxy. And as I was reading about the. Really? I became fascinated by it. Because of being sober.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

And sobriety was something that they were interested in. It's not part of anything that I do, but I was, you know, being sober in terms Of a sober mind and a sober soul and sobriety. Not just the absence of whatever ails you, but. But actual sober thought is something that they talk about the early. And I became fascinated by the desert fathers. And in particular, someone who was, I believe, connected to the Greek Orthodox or is celebrated in the Greek Orthodox Church is Evagrius of Pontus. Have you heard of him?

[Tom Brokaw]

No.

[Craig Ferguson]

He's a fascinating figure. He was a theologian. He was a desert father. So it was pre Roman Christianity. And these aesthetics, they go out and they kind of. It was like. It really is a mirror of Christ's 40 days in the wilderness. And they lived that, but they lived there all the time. St. Anthony lived there and all that. And what it became. Vagrius was a theologian. Pontus, I think, was like Northern Turkey or something. I mean, everything was all different then, Right. And he came up with the eight thoughts, eight demons that will separate you from the divine.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, I love this.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's fascinating. And the eight thoughts are. And you'll recognize them when I start saying them. They are sloth, avarice, lust, you know, and suddenly it's the seven deadly sins. And the seven deadly sins come.

[Tom Brokaw]

But he's got eight. So what was the eight?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, he had eight. Well, he put. And this is what I love.

[Tom Brokaw]

What got edited out?

[Craig Ferguson]

Sadness and sloth were put in together.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I thought that kind of makes sense too.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

But they thought about demons in the way that we talk about kind of psychosis or stuff or addictions or stuff. And I just bec. Fascinated by that. And I started wandering into it. And I knew when you were coming in today, I thought, oh, no, you are. I don't know how connected you are to your church, though. Are you very, very connected? Oh, you are?

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Good. So I can ask you lots about it.

[Tom Brokaw]

You can ask me lots about it, But I don't know how informed I'll be about it.

[Craig Ferguson]

All right, so to be fair, you're not speaking in an official capacity for the Greek. Right? Okay, that's fine.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes.

[Craig Ferguson]

Did you get married in the Greek church? In the Greek faith?

[Tom Brokaw]

In the church that I got married. It's here in Hollywood. St. Sophia Cathedral. It's the church I was bapt. Baptized in, that my sister got married in that I baptized my nieces in, that I got married in, baptized my granddaughters in, and then also did the rituals for my mom and my dad there. So it's kind of like it's been there all my life.

[Craig Ferguson]

They must get so much money out of you. But we won't stay. That's a church, isn't they? Does Greek Orthodox. Does it have the Eucharist?

[Tom Brokaw]

Have everything.

[Craig Ferguson]

All right.

[Tom Brokaw]

We have all the sacraments. We have all of the. We don't have a wafer, but we actually do bread and wine.

[Craig Ferguson]

All right. And do you believe in transubstantiation, too?

[Tom Brokaw]

Okay, now, this is where I'm probably gonna get beat up by, you know, I don't know, critics, But. Oh, God. You know what we still do? The sipping of the wine in the communal cup. And during COVID I just stopped taking Communion. Cause I was.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think that's okay.

[Tom Brokaw]

I can't do this. I just.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, you got. You famously were an early adopter of COVID You and Tom both got up, right? You guys were like. I was like, that is fast. You guys are very good.

[Tom Brokaw]

We were the first council of COVID isn't it?

[Craig Ferguson]

That was. I mean, you got it in Australia, right?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes.

[Craig Ferguson]

I remember reading about it. Cause I was like, oh, my God. First of all, I didn't even know that it was in Australia. Nobody knew if you were gonna die from it at.

[Tom Brokaw]

No, nobody knew.

[Craig Ferguson]

Of course, a lot of people said.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes, but nobody knew. It was all terrifying and strange. But I have enormous faith in my church. And at the same time, there is science that says, maybe you don't want to be sipping off of a spoon.

[Craig Ferguson]

During COVID I think that's okay. And also, I don't know what the ritual is in Greek Orthodoxy, and I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think it has to be communal. Or maybe it does, because it has to mimic the Last Supper.

[Tom Brokaw]

It was gonna be like, it's just been the way it's always been.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right. Well, that's insane.

[Tom Brokaw]

You know, as a kid, it was like that. You know, I literally have gone to church early for communion on the most obscure. Like, if it's during Holy Week, the most obscure morning service that I can take communion, and I will get there, and I will sit in the front row, and I will be the first person up for communion.

[Craig Ferguson]

Very wise.

[Tom Brokaw]

We'll get to that before anybody else.

[Craig Ferguson]

First up. And, you know, first up. I think that's very wise. But it does kind of.

[Tom Brokaw]

Can I ask you something? Question. How long have you been sober?

[Craig Ferguson]

31 years, and I'm happy to say that.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, my God.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I got sober when I was 29.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's incredible.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, it is. Actually. It's one of the reasons why I become fascinated with religion, because the longer I'M sober, the more I think that's kind of a miracle.

[Tom Brokaw]

It is a miracle.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, kind of. I don't really. I mean, it is kind of a miracle. I don't know how it really happened. And I find myself, you know, interested in these things.

[Tom Brokaw]

Completely curious. I do think it is one of the things that I can only think of the word miracle when it comes to that. Because it's like I have seen people transform their lives, and it's because of that, you know, it's like one day you're this, and the next day you're somebody completely different. And the day after and the day after.

[Craig Ferguson]

The reason why I became fascinated by it is because in being sober and trying to remain sober and trying to improve your sobriety, I guess, is that I became interested in what happened before. You know, in my case, there was an organization, which I won't mention for the reason of traditions, but it came into being in the mid-1930s. And before that, of course, there were temporary and all that kind of thing before that. But there was an amazing story about. Do you know the story about Roland Hazzard?

[Tom Brokaw]

No.

[Craig Ferguson]

Roland Hazard was a drunk from a rich family in the northeast of America in the 19. I think it was the 1930s, I guess, early 30s. And he was a hopeless case. And eventually the Hazard family, because they had a lot of money, sent him to be treated by Carl Jung.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow. That's a different kind of rehab.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's crazy, right? So they sent him to Roland Haz to be treated by Carl Jung. But before that, they had asked Freud and Adler if they would take him. And they were like, nah, drunks. There's nothing we can do. I mean, they're hopeless.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

So they sent Roland to Carl Jung. Roland Hazard works for a year with Carl Jung. And Carl Jung says, I think you're good to go. I don't know enough about it. Good luck. So Roland makes it as far. He was in Switzerland. He gets as far as Paris. He gets drunk and he goes back again. He says to Carl Jung, I don't know what to do. Am I gonna. And Carl Jung says, I think you're gonna die. I don't think there's anything I can do. And he said, there's nothing. And Carl Jung said, well, look, once in a while, like St. Paul on the road to Damascus, a person has a religious experience, Ignatius of Loyola or something like that, and a profound spiritual change that so affects their psyche that they can stay sober. But unless you get that, I don't know how it's gonna happen. And so what Roland Hazzard, he comes back to America, he joins the Oxford Group. The Oxford Group morph into the organization that I'm talking about and they start to try and recreate. Bill Wilson, who founded Alcoholics Anonymous, starts to try and recreate through a series of steps, a profound psychic change that mimics what was a religious experience before that in order to alter the psyche of the alcoholic so much that they can stay sober.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

Isn't that fascinating?

[Tom Brokaw]

And he did that Well, I think.

[Craig Ferguson]

In my case, yes.

[Unknown]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on items like General Mills Cereal, Chobani Greek Yogurt, Pillsbury Crescent Rol cinnamon rolls and Biscuits, Haagen Dazs ice Cream, Lindor Chocolate Truffles, Tillamook ice Cream and Cove Probiotic Sodas. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.

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[Craig Ferguson]

Hello, this is Craig Ferguson and I want to let you know I have a brand new stand up comedy special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm so Happy and I would be so happy if you checked it out. To watch the special, just go to my YouTube channel at the Craig Ferguson show and it's just right there. Just click it and play it and it's free. I can't. Look, I'm not going to come around your house and show you how to do it. If you can't do it, then you can't have it. But if you can figure it out, it's yours. The psychic change that occurs, this is not really about me, but I'm interested because you're a religious person and you've always been a religious person. Has there ever been a point where you thought, I don't believe it, I don't believe it?

[Tom Brokaw]

No.

[Craig Ferguson]

So you haven't had to make that, that turn?

[Tom Brokaw]

No. My mom was really the person who was the bringer of the faith, Right? My dad, he must have Chrismated or Converted before he married my mom converted because Chrismation is if you are already baptized in a religion, but you're going to get married in the Greek Orthodox Church or not married, because you can. You can get married if you're Christian. You don't have to be Greek Orthodox to get married in the church. Chrismation is if you want to convert from, let's say, Catholicism to Greek Orthodoxy.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

So that's kind of slightly different than.

[Craig Ferguson]

Was your dad a Christian?

[Tom Brokaw]

So my dad must have converted in order to get married in the church. But after he died, I did a TV show called who do youo Think youk Are? You know, the genealogy show?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

And we went back to his village, and everyone. Everyone was Muslim. Everyone.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

And my dad always explained it this way. He said that where he was from, he was born in Greece, and where he was from, the area was always being occupied by some people coming and going and going. And for many, many years, obviously, it was the Ottoman Empire. And during that time, my dad said that many years back, they were Christians. And during the Ottoman Empire, they were sort of told that they had to change their religion, convert to Islam, and also to change their names to sound more Islamic.

[Craig Ferguson]

Wow.

[Tom Brokaw]

So I think.

[Craig Ferguson]

So how'd you end up with Wilson then?

[Tom Brokaw]

Cause that was the street we lived on. When my dad became a citizen of the United States, he was like.

[Craig Ferguson]

I just sort of thought, is that why you. No, that's not the reason why. The ball. Is Wilson in?

[Tom Brokaw]

I think that it is, yes. I mean.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, my God. I didn't read that. I feel like I just learned something really profound. Like in Cast. No. Cause there is the name of the volleyball.

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, there's a Wilson Brand, there's a Spalding, and there's a Voight.

[Craig Ferguson]

Spalding, everybody. I thought Spalding Gray. Yeah. I think that's lovely. But it's like. Oh, I feel like. Oh, weirdly excited about that. There's something very human about it, and I think that's great.

[Tom Brokaw]

No, it's great. It's great.

[Craig Ferguson]

It is great.

[Tom Brokaw]

So that was it. And then, you know, I met so many of my relatives who are Muslim. And it was just so interesting to me because my dad never really talked about it. He didn't. You know, there was a lot of things I found out about my dad then, you know, after he passed away.

[Craig Ferguson]

Was your. Well, your dad was an immigrant, and was your mom an immigrant, too?

[Tom Brokaw]

My mom was actually born in New York and then raised in a little tiny village. She's Greek on the Border of Albania and Greece. And when the war broke out, well, first they went there when she was four years old and her father died. And so her mom, my Yaya grandmother, was left with four kids. And the relatives in New York said, what are you gonna do? A widow with four children in New York? Stay in the village and we'll send money back to you.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay.

[Tom Brokaw]

Because my grandfather had a business in New York. And so they stayed. And over the years, I think money stopped being sent. And then around the time of the end of the war and also the beginning of the civil unrest in Greece, they knew it was time to get out. And so they couldn't just walk the border, even though my mom was an American citizen. So they had to escape and climb over these mountains and make their way onto the Greece side of the border and then eventually made their way to Athens, renewed their passports and then took a ship over to.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh gosh, that's a real.

[Tom Brokaw]

And my dad has an amazing story too. My dad's story is that he. I didn't know any of this until I did that show.

[Craig Ferguson]

So you as a kid, you don't know this about your mother and father?

[Tom Brokaw]

I knew this about my mother.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

I did not know. I knew that my father was in a labor camp, but I did not know there was an earlier part of the story which was he was in the army, the Bulgarian army. And while he was at the Bulgarian army, he saw seltzer bottles. Right, right from somewhere. And he took the 12. There were 12 seltzer bottles and he took them. And knowing what I know about my dad, he only did things for other people. So I thought he must have had a reason for doing this. And my grandfather had a. He was a hunter and he had a hunting lodge, let's call it small lodge, in the mountains in the Rodopi Mountains of Bulgaria. And I think he must have thought, oh, my dad could use these bottles for when he's out on a hunting trip.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

Anyways, he was arrested, he was court martialed and he was sentenced to a.

[Craig Ferguson]

Prison for taking empty bottles for three years. Yes, three years in prison for taking empty bottles.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes, exactly. They were trying to make an example of him.

[Craig Ferguson]

The great bottle thieving happen.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes, exactly. It was all about bottle thieving.

[Craig Ferguson]

So who's in charge?

[Tom Brokaw]

No, it's true. I mean, they had all the documents there, so it wasn't like there wasn't anything being hidden. It was just literally. And this prison was very, very dangerous and treacherous. Anyways, he gets out and he meets A girl. And they get married, right? And she gets pregnant. And I knew none of this, right?

[Craig Ferguson]

This is not your mom that we're talking about.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, my God, no. And she delivers a baby on December 26th. I want you to remember that, okay? And so on December 29, she dies from complications of childbirth. Things that nowadays, modern medicine would be able to take care of, of course. So my dad is now the father of an infant. He's living with his in laws. The tragedy of this beautiful young woman dying and this little baby. So this was after the war. I don't know how they kept that baby alive, because what do you do? There's no milk, there's no formula. They could barely have enough bread to eat. And four months later, the baby died. And his name was Emile. It's so, like, terribly sad story. Very sad. And I think this is one of the reasons why my dad was like, I'm out of here. I'm getting out of Bulgaria. And he tried.

[Craig Ferguson]

You never knew any of this.

[Tom Brokaw]

Never knew anything. But what's ironic is my sister's first child was born on December 26, and my second son was born on December 26. And I always thought on Christmas and that next day, which was always a big celebration in our family, that my dad must have been thinking about his firstborn son, Emil, and knowing that, like, yeah, what is this about? I have baby. Everybody in my family's having babies on December 26th.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's funny, my. My wife has a grandfather who has. It's not the same story, but he was from a country that no longer exists in that area, the Republic of Something or something. And he came over and they could never find out what he did, but he would always carry cash. He had a farm in Massachusetts, and he would always carry cash in the bib of his overalls, just in case. Just in case.

[Tom Brokaw]

Because you never know when you have to cut and run. Nothing takes away that fear. I think it's true.

[Craig Ferguson]

It is strange because you don't get free of it. I was talking to. Obviously I was talking. Do you know Dax Shepard? Yeah, Dax.

[Tom Brokaw]

Love Dax.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, he's great. I was talking to him the other day, and he grew up in kind of difficult circumstances in Detroit. And I grew up not rich either. And I don't think that feeling ever leaves you. It doesn't matter how much money you make. No, it's like. You're like, ooh, no, keep some aside.

[Tom Brokaw]

My dad was a bartender, and so he would work, he'd get tips, and so he would Bring the tips home in a crown royal felt bag. You know, I do know that bag, actually. Yeah, that's okay. And on Saturday mornings, we would spread out all the coins on the kitchen table, and we would take the quarters and put them in the little bank rolls of coins.

[Craig Ferguson]

I love this.

[Tom Brokaw]

Write the account.

[Craig Ferguson]

I would still do this.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, totally. It was like meditative. Yeah, he would do that. And that's why I always think, like, wow, you know, you've got to take care of the people who are in those positions that, you know, they're going home with those tips and taking those tips to their families and putting them in roles and making a living out of it. But my mom used to keep secret money in her wallet. Like $20. And I'm like, but it's not secret. Cause you put it there. I know, I know. But it wasn't in the part where she would actually access it. Right, right.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's in the other bed behind your driver's license. Yeah, I know that too.

[Tom Brokaw]

My dad would take money and he would put it in a lead pipe. So he would just like, whatever bills he would like. It was like his bank account. He would put it in a lead pipe that had screws, lids on each end in case there was a fire.

[Craig Ferguson]

This is in Los Angeles, though.

[Tom Brokaw]

You're growing up here in the Hollywood Hills.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes. That's crazy. Now, if you grew up the child of immigrants with a shocking story. But in Hollywood. So I feel like I always believed in the. Not believed in the myth. That sounds wrong, but I was always much more impressed by Hollywood and Hollywoodness until I started doing the late night show. And then you just meet everybody, and then you just realize it's like, you know, the douche to mensch ratio is just the same as it is everywhere else in the world. Some people are great, some people are assholes, and it's fine.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

But until that point, there was a mystique about Hollywood that I really believed in. Did you not never have that because you grew up here, or did it crumble over time like it did for me?

[Tom Brokaw]

No, it was just my hometown.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right.

[Tom Brokaw]

And I knew that people came here from all over the world to pursue their dreams. But this was my hometown. I went to Hollywood High, Leconte Junior High, which is right down the street. Hollywood Boulevard was where we would go and get back to school clothes. Your bike.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. You can't do that in Hollywood Boulevard. No, you can't do that. If you're buying school clothes in Hollywood Boulevard. It's a completely different look you're going for.

[Tom Brokaw]

It's for a different kind of school.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, it's bad. That would be bad.

[Tom Brokaw]

And we would go to movies at the Chinese Theater and go to Musso and Frank's on a special occasion. And it was just home. But I started modeling first at 14 years old, right here at Hollywood High School. I was discovered.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, they said.

[Tom Brokaw]

And I put that in quotation marks.

[Craig Ferguson]

Talk me through the discovery bit, a little bit.

[Tom Brokaw]

It was first day of school.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. You want to be a model? Was that it? Was that really it?

[Tom Brokaw]

No, it was kind of like that, except they were legit. They were from Harper's Bazaar magazine, but I didn't know that at the time. And the photographer was a very famous photographer. Nowadays, he's still alive. His name's Albert Watson. He's incredible, right? Scottish, I believe.

[Craig Ferguson]

Is he really?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes. And so is his wife, I think. So he saw me walking and asked they had permission from the school to be there if he could take some pictures. I was like, oh, can I take.

[Craig Ferguson]

A picture of that? When you get it over there? She's very beautiful.

[Tom Brokaw]

And so they took some pictures and he asked the next day if we could arrange another time to meet. And so we did and took more pictures. And that ended up being the first modeling job I ever had, which was for Harper's Bazaar magazine, which is very swanky. Very swanky. Very, very swanky. It was the year 18 year olds got the vote. Okay, so it was their 1972. January 1972 issue, I believe.

[Craig Ferguson]

Is that when 18 year olds got the vote?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But after that I just started working. And the first job I got to get my Screen Actors Guild card was the Brady Bunch. And that was at Paramount Studios. Now still to this day, if I walk into. Driving into a studio, walk into a soundstage, I have that feeling of it's magic. It's a very specific smell. I know exactly who climate. It's a volume of height. It's the color of the walls, it's the energy. Now, like certain studios are putting plaques on the of their soundstages. Like this is what was filmed here and it's fantastic. And all good things have always happened to me at Paramount Studios. So I love Paramount Studios. So it was a trippy thing because I don't know why I was lucky, but with all of that that I was exposed to and all the different kinds of people that I was exposed to, I never had anything terrible happened to me in la. I mean, it was just like, I.

[Craig Ferguson]

Wonder if that's because you knew the neighborhood, I mean like not just knew the neighborhood, like what the streets, but you kind of like if you grow up amongst it, if you're kind of, you speak the language almost. I think if people come here, particularly young women, if young women come here and they're white eyed and they're, you know, it maybe, maybe attracts. I don't know.

[Tom Brokaw]

I don't know. I mean. Cause I had a lot of friends that bad things happened to and yes, they did come from other places. But look, it.

[Craig Ferguson]

Has the term changed do you think? Has it changed from that?

[Tom Brokaw]

I think it's much scarier now. It's much scarier now.

[Craig Ferguson]

There's just, it feels like it's everywhere now. Like the world is Hollywood now. You know, it's.

[Tom Brokaw]

There was still some kind of accountability. The town was not as big as it is now, for one thing. Now I think LA is like 20 million. Just LA.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's a lot of people.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's like bigger than some countries.

[Craig Ferguson]

So it's four times the size of Scotland.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes, exactly. But I feel like there were things like the Christmas parade on Hollywood Boulevard where my dad, we would come down and he'd pack up in the car, we'd park blocks away and then, you know, he'd carry me on his shoulders and we would wait for Nudie to come down in his Cadillac.

[Craig Ferguson]

Nudie?

[Tom Brokaw]

Nudie. Nudie was a big western guy. Did you ever know that guy?

[Craig Ferguson]

Nudie on Hollywood Boulevard is a different Nudie.

[Tom Brokaw]

Nudie on Hollywood Boulevard that goes back to that other kind of school.

[Craig Ferguson]

But that there was a. I moved here in 1995 to Los Angeles and even then there was a kind of sleepiness to the town.

[Tom Brokaw]

It changed.

[Craig Ferguson]

It really did.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I kind of, I can't quite tell when I think it's something to do with Uber or smartphones or GPS or something. Something, something happened and it got really, really different. Or maybe I just got older or maybe.

[Tom Brokaw]

No, no, something did change. It would be so fascinating if somebody could analyze that and say what was the difference? Like what was that shift that happened and why? I don't know. I really don't know. Maybe phones or computers. Computers were out in what, 96, 97? I don't know.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think when people started, you know, there used to be the sign where you couldn't. There was a sign that said no walking to the Hollywood sign. And I lived up in the hills and you couldn't walk to the Hollywood sign, but you actually could walk to the Hollywood sign. But they would put signs up saying you couldn't and you could wander up there. And that was always the walk that I did. I'd walk up Mount Hollywood and down by the observatory and it's beautiful. And I did it recently when I was here and it's packed. Everybody knows where to go.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, you're kidding.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's packed. There's, like, people above the sign. They're all tourists up there. They all walk up there and I mean, every right to go.

[Tom Brokaw]

It's just so many walked up to the Hollywood sign. What, Born and raised. Don't even know how to get there? No, I don't even know how. Well, I wouldn't want to bother the neighbors up there.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, there's nobody up there but coyotes and snakes.

[Unknown]

Really?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, now tourists.

[Tom Brokaw]

Now tourists.

[Craig Ferguson]

You missed your show.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, but I mean, there were. I mean, nowadays, if you go up there, I think it's very like. It's rude, right? You don't want to disturb the residents and things like that.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, well, you can. There's paths up to it. You can walk up to it from under. It's all right. And it might be rude.

[Tom Brokaw]

So funny. I don't know.

[Craig Ferguson]

No, you can get up through Canyon and I'll tell you about it later. Yeah, you can walk up through canyon. It's a secret way up because the Batman Caves are over there.

[Tom Brokaw]

I know the Batman Caves.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, you just go up this. You go up past the Batman Caves and then you can walk, right. It's really steep. Walk up the hill and then you walk over to the left and you're above the Hollywood station.

[Tom Brokaw]

Did you ever go horseback riding at Sunset Stables?

[Craig Ferguson]

I did.

[Tom Brokaw]

And go over into Burbank for the night and then come back.

[Craig Ferguson]

Have you done that?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, I love that.

[Tom Brokaw]

It was so much fun. They still do it, apparently.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

On the moon or something.

[Craig Ferguson]

I fell off a horse recently. Do you ride horses?

[Tom Brokaw]

I do. I love horses.

[Craig Ferguson]

I like horses, too, but I'm not.

[Tom Brokaw]

Do you write English?

[Craig Ferguson]

No. I have a Western saddle in Scotland. In Scotland? Yeah. But my horse. We put the western saddle on him. My wife's very, very, very horsey. Not in appearance, although. No, she's not horsey in appearance, but she's gorgeous. She's gorgeous, but she has a beautiful pony. We put this. I think they call it the girth on the English saddle. What do they call it? They call it the girth thing.

[Tom Brokaw]

I like the bridle. Not the bridle.

[Craig Ferguson]

The girth. Yeah, the girth. So I think it was pinching, his little leggy bit.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, no.

[Craig Ferguson]

And he bucked. He's only ever bucked twice. Once I saw it when he was lunging. I was lunging him. And then the other time, I was on him and I came off. He's a big horse, too.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

It was very.

[Tom Brokaw]

Ouch.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I'm 61 years old. I've fallen off many horses. And I've noticed over the years that it hurts a lot more now.

[Tom Brokaw]

It hurts a lot more now, for sure.

[Craig Ferguson]

Do you ever have an accident on your horse?

[Tom Brokaw]

I've been thrown from a horse, sure. But nothing that resulted in injury. My injuries are from the two times I tried snowboarding because I ski.

[Craig Ferguson]

That hurts so much.

[Tom Brokaw]

Snowboarding? Why?

[Craig Ferguson]

You fall on your ass all the.

[Tom Brokaw]

Time and your feet are stuck together on a board.

[Craig Ferguson]

You can't escape.

[Tom Brokaw]

No.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's like I like to sit at the end of a row in a movie theater in case I have to leave.

[Tom Brokaw]

Exactly.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I feel the same about skiing and snowboarding. I don't want my feet tied to the. Exactly. Yes.

[Tom Brokaw]

I gotta go. Bye.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I gotta leave. I'm sorry. Something came up. I gotta leave. Let me ask you a question, then. Do you ever get a fear of flying?

[Tom Brokaw]

I used to. I don't anymore.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's interesting.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wanna hear why?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

It was very specific. I had two friends. Sorry. One friend, and he was in a plane crash.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, good Lord.

[Tom Brokaw]

The crash. The plane went off the Runway. The plane caught fire. Everybody got out and survived.

[Craig Ferguson]

Okay.

[Tom Brokaw]

So it had a happy ending.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's good. Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

But I called his wife when it happened, and I said, oh, my God, how is he doing? Oh, my gosh, they're British. And I said, well, I said, that's why I don't fly. When the kids were little, Tom and I didn't fly on the same plane together. We take different flights and all that. And I said, you know, that's why we don't fly together. And she said, darling, if you don't fly together, then you shouldn't really drive together because the chances of being in a car crash are far greater. And she was right. The statistics are actually true.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, the statistics are right.

[Tom Brokaw]

So that kind of calmed me.

[Craig Ferguson]

I was like, okay, the idea of once the doors are closed, you hand the power over to someone else, and that always. I actually, what I did is I learned to fly your own plane. Yeah, I did that.

[Tom Brokaw]

And what did that do?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, you know Kurt Russell.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes.

[Craig Ferguson]

Right. So Kurt, you know, Kurt's like, crazy. He is aviator. So I said to him, he was on the old Late Night show, and I said, I'm frightened of flying. I know you love flying and I'm frightened of flying. He said, you're not frightened of flying. You're just a control freak. And I went, that's not true. I went, it is true. I read your book. And I went, you read my book? And then I ended up talking to Tony about the book. And I was so excited that Kurt read my book, but he didn't forget. And so for my birthday, Megan called up Kurt and said, hey, let's get him some flying lessons. Cause I used to be terrified of flying. And he went, great. And he found a flying instructor, a really gnarly old guy over at Van Nuys airport, took me up, and after about seven hours of flying instruction for me, where I was terrified, Kurt said, you come up with me. I was like, oh, God. So he has this super powerful plane, right? I don't know if he still has it, but he had a TBM 700. It was like a rocket ship.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

And we go up this plane and we fly just from Santa Monica over Santa Maria Airport. It's not far, is it?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes.

[Craig Ferguson]

And as we're landing, there's a bit of a crosswind. And he said, land the plane. I said, I'm not ready for that. He went, well, I ain't doing it. And so. And eventually, you know, I did it and I got it close and then he took over and he landed the plane.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, terrifying.

[Craig Ferguson]

I was terrified. But you can't cry in front of Snake Plissken. There's no. You can't, you know. But I went home and something cracked a little bit. I don't know what it was. When I went home, I was like, no, it's different. I understood the mechanics of it a little better.

[Tom Brokaw]

So now are you less afraid to fly in a commercial flight?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I would say that I am.

[Tom Brokaw]

Because you understand the mechanics, I understand.

[Craig Ferguson]

How it works and I understand that. I also understand that the person that is flying the plane is far more qualified than I am to do the job. So that kind of works.

[Tom Brokaw]

Don't put him on a late night show or a podcast. He can't do it.

[Craig Ferguson]

Who, Kurt?

[Tom Brokaw]

The pilot.

[Craig Ferguson]

Oh, the pilot. Some can, some can't do it. There are very specific breed pilots, actually. Did you never get into that?

[Tom Brokaw]

I don't suppose you did flying?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, it's kind of a Hollywood thing. There's a community of people here that do it. And I was kind of surprised by the people that I was like, oh, my God. And you run into Edward Norton at the airport or, you know, Travolta is famously a flyer. Or Tom Cruise or like, there's a whole. I'm like, oh, my God. This is like the Oscars.

[Tom Brokaw]

This is exactly. It's crazy.

[Craig Ferguson]

Everybody's here, the Oscars, in like really fancy suits. I'm like, oh, everyone's wearing pressure suits. It's cool. But it's kind of like. And I thought it'd be like, super expensive and it is, but, you know.

[Tom Brokaw]

So do you still do it? Do you still take lessons?

[Craig Ferguson]

I have a little, little tiny two seater plane that I can only fly at certain times of the year because of the weather.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow. And you keep it in Scotland?

[Craig Ferguson]

I do, but I share it with a guy who's a really good pilot.

[Tom Brokaw]

Okay, so when you go, you take a co pilot with you?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, well, let's say I take the co pilot, but really I'm just sitting going, what does that do? Can I have a shot? Can I have a shot?

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Radhi Devlukia]

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[Craig Ferguson]

Down or NBC News.

[Tom Brokaw]

I'm Tom Brokaw.

[Craig Ferguson]

You hope to see see you back here. I'm Lester Holt. It's carried forward. Tom Yamets is there for us. Firefighters are still working around the clock. As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with breaking news Right now we look for a constant and from one era to the next, trust is the anchor. For NBC Nightly News, I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas evenings on NBC. Do you have a thing that you your antidote to show business? Because it's such an odd kind of capricious world that just by the nature of it, I don't mind it. I think that's the way it is. It's the circus. But I often feel I'm drawn very much to things which are ananted which take my head out of it. Do you do that? Do you?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

I mean you have your faith obviously.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. Well, first of all, my family super close to them. After this I'm gonna go see my brother who lives right up nearby.

[Craig Ferguson]

Nice.

[Tom Brokaw]

But I have to be outside in nature. Like I love swimming, I love hiking, I love walking. Anything that is outside Is that is just heaven for me. And also I really. I like driving by myself.

[Craig Ferguson]

I like that too.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's great. I just love it. I feel like it's a cocoon and you can think and nothing, you know, like, it's almost like a meditation in a way, you know, like, what's that expression that they used to say idle hands are the devil's work or something like that. But it's the idea that you're using your hands to do something and it frees up your brain. So my mom was a big crocheter and people who cook or garden or sew or any of that stuff or work on cars, they have early Christian desert mystics.

[Craig Ferguson]

They would make baskets.

[Tom Brokaw]

What would they make baskets?

[Craig Ferguson]

They would weave baskets while they were in constant prayer.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right. And so that. I think that's a form of meditation. Right. And I love that I listen to music, I listen to books on tape. But mostly I just like to let the mind wander.

[Craig Ferguson]

Are you a gearhead? Do you like have special cars? Do you like, go to Jay Leno's garage and say, let me try this one?

[Tom Brokaw]

I don't actually. My car is. You're gonna think this is crazy. 10 years old. You know how most people get a brand new car like every couple? No, my car's 10 years old. Never getting rid of it. I love it.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, one of the. A big thing that happened to me in Hollywood was I was working in Warner Brothers and it was in the 1990s and I just got here, I was doing the Drew Gehry show and Clint Eastwood was working in the Warner Brothers law. And he drove in in a 10 year old Ford Explorer. And I was like, that is so cool.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's so cool. So cool.

[Craig Ferguson]

He's like, I'm Clint Eastwood and I don't care.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, exactly.

[Craig Ferguson]

He was like, you know, it's not gonna make me any more Clint Eastwood if I.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

I just. I love to kind of like, yeah, it's a car.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, I have a car. One of my cars. It's a truck, is. I should say ours is 21 years old.

[Craig Ferguson]

I think that's great though. I loved it.

[Tom Brokaw]

You hang onto them long enough and they become vintage.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's right. I think I feel like I'm trying that for myself as well. I feel like if I can survive long enough, it'll come back around again.

[Tom Brokaw]

Totally.

[Craig Ferguson]

I noticed kids at my standup shows now and they're like under 30. I'm like, what the hell are you doing here?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Then I Throw you bastards. You're here ironically, aren't you? It's cause of TikTok or something.

[Tom Brokaw]

No way. What about that? Do you do TikTok?

[Craig Ferguson]

I was about to ask you. I kind of dip in and out of it, but I treat it the same way as I do with anything. I don't read anything that anybody else puts up.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

I just like. I do my thing and then I run away.

[Tom Brokaw]

I know I have an account, but I've never been onto it. I don't know how to do it.

[Craig Ferguson]

But you do. You do the Instagram or the.

[Tom Brokaw]

I do Instagram and Facebook and Twitter, formerly known as Twitter ads?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I think Twitter is. It's kind of going away, I think now. Is that what you're saying?

[Tom Brokaw]

I don't know. I wish it would all go away.

[Craig Ferguson]

I kind of do too.

[Tom Brokaw]

Can it leave now? Hasn't it had its moment? Can't we just go back to looking at each other, talking to each other?

[Craig Ferguson]

I was hoping it was gonna be like CB radio. Like it would come in and it would go and that would be. I think I feel that it kind of. I remember actually Tom was scheduled to do a spot in my old late night show and for some reason and he couldn't do it. And he wrote very classy, gentlemen, as I'm sure you know. He wrote a note of apology and it was written in an old typewriter. And I went, oh my God, that's so cool. Because it wasn't just somebody had just done it.

[Tom Brokaw]

No, it's him. Stakes and all.

[Craig Ferguson]

There was some thought in it and it marred to me it really was something.

[Tom Brokaw]

There's something really good about analog things. A handwritten note, a hand typed note.

[Craig Ferguson]

I listen to my music on vinyl now. I've gone back to that.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, my new album's coming out on vinyl soon.

[Craig Ferguson]

Because you're a country artist sort of, right?

[Tom Brokaw]

Kind of. Yes, yes. I love that. I like to say that I'm Southern. Southern California. Southern California, why not?

[Craig Ferguson]

It's like that NASCAR guy that's from California. I can't remember his name, but he's sort of southern, but Southern California.

[Tom Brokaw]

But I love vinyl. I love it so much. It reminds me, first of all, it's tactile and it reminds me of how we used to listen to music as a whole. So there was a narrative story that the artist or the band was looking to tell and you would listen to it and there'd be that moment where side one was over side A and you'd flip it over and do side B. Yeah. And it was just like, I love the ritual of that. That's so wonderful.

[Craig Ferguson]

I like the crackle of it, smell of it. I know, crackle. The thing is as well is that you can listen to vinyl at low volume and hear stuff that you can't hear digitally. I never noticed that until very recently. I'm like, wait a minute. And I played it to. Our youngest boy is 12, and I got this vinyl setup and I played it to him for the first time. And it was like a big electronica thing. It was a Scottish band called Mogwai. And it's like. It's real, you know.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, my God.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I played it to him and was. He went, oh, my God. What is this?

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I said, this is analog music. This is vinyl speakers. And he was like, oh, my. He said, I love this. He said, I feel I've been robbed. I said, you have.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, exactly. Like, turn him on. Get him his own turntable. There was a woman that lived up the street from us when we were growing up, and she worked at Capitol Records. So this was during the 60s when the Beatles were assigned to Capitol. So whenever there was an album, a Beatles album released, she would bring it to us. And my sister, well, all three of us, we would just put that thing on, call it a hi fi. Why was it a hi fi?

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't know. High fidelity.

[Tom Brokaw]

High fidelity. But it had a turn. My dad made it. It had a turntable on one side, it had the tuners on the other side and the amps. And then the middle was the television set. And we would just.

[Craig Ferguson]

That is so cool.

[Tom Brokaw]

Sit in front of that, like. I wish. Wouldn't that be great if somebody came out with a high five? But like a really proper. With all the good technology, but made it look like it was in a piece of cabinetry.

[Craig Ferguson]

I bet you could do it. I found a 1930s wooden radio in the house in Scotland in the. What we call the cellars. It's kind of a crypt.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I don't know why the radio was down there, but all the valves and stuff were gone. But there is a company that will put new innards in it for you.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, that's so cool. Do you live in an old house in Scotland?

[Craig Ferguson]

It's pretty old, yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

Is it haunted?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes.

[Tom Brokaw]

Really? What kind of ghosts? What kind of things have you heard or seen?

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, there's always bumps and squeaks. Do you believe in all this?

[Tom Brokaw]

We had one house that had things that were inexplicable I love this house. Me too.

[Craig Ferguson]

The most haunted house I've ever lived in was in the Hollywood Hill. What? Yes.

[Tom Brokaw]

Okay, tell me what happened.

[Craig Ferguson]

Well, I don't know what happened, but it was scary. Meghan was like, what the hell is that? And it was like, ah, it may have been a homeless guy, I don't know. But it was. It was scary. It was a scary house.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's wild.

[Craig Ferguson]

Where was your haunted house?

[Tom Brokaw]

It was an old 1926 Mediterranean.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's the. Okay. Mine was a 1926 Mediterranean.

[Tom Brokaw]

What?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

They were friends. The ghosts were friends.

[Craig Ferguson]

Maybe. Where was it? It was in the Hollywood Hills.

[Tom Brokaw]

No, in Santa Monica area. So here's the thing, though, that there were just inexplicable things in. Everybody heard them. And you just couldn't explain why the TV would go on by itself in the middle of the night.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I've seen that.

[Tom Brokaw]

Why? It sounded like there was somebody dropping a stack of books onto the floor from the second floor landing. It sounded like somebody was just dropping a stack of books.

[Craig Ferguson]

We had one in the house. Like we were in the old house in Scotland, right? And there was a portrait. An old portrait of the woman who had owned the house a couple hundred years ago was up on the wall, right? And Megan and I were standing in the room. We were talking about something, and we're just being married talking. I don't know what the hell you talk. You know what it's like you've been married forever. It's like you just talk about everything. Nah, you don't know what it is.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

Remember that thing? Yeah. So we're just talking, and there was a door that never opened. Right. It just. It couldn't. It was always so. I mean, you could open it, but it was very, very difficult. You had to jiggle this. The handle. So we were looking at this portrait, and I said, oh, she's still here somewhere. And Meghan was like, well. And she said, it's a joke. She said to the portrait, it's my house now, girl. And the door wiggled. And then a door opened. And I was like, no way did that happen? And Megan said. She was like, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't mean it by.

[Tom Brokaw]

What was inside the door?

[Craig Ferguson]

Nothing. We thought it was one of the kids coming through. There was nobody there. Nothing. The door just opened.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, I've got the tingles just telling.

[Craig Ferguson]

You about it right now.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's so crazy.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I know.

[Tom Brokaw]

It's crazy.

[Craig Ferguson]

All right. We're completely out of time. I don't know if we've done anything.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wait a minute. Aren't we supposed to be talking about joy?

[Craig Ferguson]

I don't know if you noticed, but I tried to get you to talk about everything that brought you joy.

[Tom Brokaw]

But what's the joys? Oh, the things that bring me joy.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. Your faith, your family.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, got it. Okay.

[Craig Ferguson]

But you know what? If you wanna define it in some way and put a button on it, I'm very happy with that.

[Tom Brokaw]

Put a button on it.

[Craig Ferguson]

I mean, what does define joy for you?

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, I mean, I think it has to be just making people happy and trying to. I mean, for me, anyways, I like to do that. I like to make people happy. I like to. Okay, if it's stuff that's not related to family, because obviously that's. That's a given, I suppose. But I was not always. Yeah, that's true. Maybe not.

[Craig Ferguson]

Not always. And the reason why I didn't, like, bring it up in a fashion and just ask you directly is because I think sometimes it's nice to talk to people and find out what makes them happy without saying what makes you happy.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right, Exactly. No, I get that. But I. I would have to say that I think music, for me, because I came to it, I've always loved music and wished that I had started it younger, but it didn't happen that way. And when I finally did start making music 12 years ago, it was as if I could finally express myself in a creative way. That felt so truthful. Because in acting, I've done wonderful things. Right. And very grateful for them. But in some ways, I also exhausted the canon of warm, kind, nurturing wife, daughter, sister, mother, friend.

[Craig Ferguson]

You know, it's also a collaborative art form that, you know, you're working with a whole bunch of different people coming with a whole bunch of different angles and agendas.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right?

[Craig Ferguson]

Whereas a musician, it's like you drive the thing a little more.

[Tom Brokaw]

And it was really. It just brings me so much joy to do that. Like, when I know that I have a writing session or I'm gonna go in and record something, it. I'm so excited. And that absolutely brings me joy. And, you know, look, you're right. My faith is a huge driver of that, I think, because I have faith, you know, it gets tested. Everybody gets tested. You know, we have that happen. But I still feel like at the end of the day, I have that.

[Craig Ferguson]

So there's a great line. Do you remember the movie Chariots of Fire?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yes. All right, so in Chariots of Fire, it's one of my favorite languages.

[Tom Brokaw]

The Greek people would say, vangelis.

[Craig Ferguson]

Vangelis. That's right. He did the soundtrack.

[Tom Brokaw]

The Greek people would always. If there's a Greek person somewhere in the vicinity of a conversation, a Greek will point that out.

[Craig Ferguson]

Vangelis. So in the Vangelis movie, Chariots of Fire, it's about a Scottish runner who is a very religious man. And the story is that he won't run in the Olympics on a Sunday. And it's a big problem. Cause that's when the final is. And that's the story of the movie, sort of. And his sister, who's even more religious than him, doesn't want him to run at all. Because they've got to go. Their missionary work in China is what needs them. And he says this line to her. I don't know who wrote the script. It was terrible. But there's a great line in the. They're walking on the hill above Edinburgh, and she's trying to persuade him not to go to the Olympics. And he says, I believe God made me for a purpose, and that purpose is China. But when I run, I feel his pleasure.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, that's so beautiful.

[Craig Ferguson]

And I think that can be your music for you.

[Tom Brokaw]

That's beautiful. Yeah, it feels like that. It really does. And it's exactly that. It's exactly that.

[Craig Ferguson]

It sounds like that.

[Tom Brokaw]

And now that we're talking about it, you're making me think about all sorts of other things because some of them tie together. Earlier you asked me what gives me joy. Like, I love. I'm a hobbyist, but I do watercolor painting. Okay, perfect. And it gives me so much joy because here's why I always wanted to try it, and I never could do it. And I was like, why am I not doing it? I had organized, you know, organizing all the vacations for the families when the kids were little and all of that.

[Craig Ferguson]

That.

[Tom Brokaw]

And they'd all be set up and very happy and doing all their things and having their activities. And I'd feel like, oh, what am I supposed to be doing now? And I thought, I need a hobby. I need something I can do like that. So I researched a painting class. And I went one day a week for five years, from September till June. And I knew nothing when I started this class. Nothing. And it was probably the thing that led me to find songwriting. Because I thought, if you do something consistently enough, you don't get worse at it. You cannot get worse at it. You will improve. And I thought, yeah, with a matter of discipline and just consistency. This happens. And I met the most amazing people, and they were people out of this incredible walk of life that you're like. This one guy used to run ABC Studios. Brandon Stoddard. Incredible man. He passed away now.

[Craig Ferguson]

Do you remember him? Yay.

[Tom Brokaw]

Such a lovely human being. He was an incredible artist. And, you know, you think, God, you know, he didn't have that. What you don't know about that exists within you, that unless you sort of explore it and say, okay, okay, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna do it like you did with flying a plane. I mean, you came at it because you were afraid of it, but there might be something you could do out of the joy of it. Just because you're like, well, I don't know how to river dance, but I'm going to learn.

[Craig Ferguson]

It's like, you know me, I've seen it to you. So now I can finally. I feel like I've been released. But it's funny because I think what it is is that when you're young, when a person is young, I think they judge themselves and they look at the results. The biggest challenge I have when I start writing anything, not anymore, but it used to be I would start saying once upon a time or whatever it was that I wrote. And then by the third sentence, I was constructing my thank you speech. No.

[Tom Brokaw]

Were you funny as a kid?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah, I think I probably.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. You knew that you could make people laugh.

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. Well, I knew I'd better. They hit me. So it was kind of like not so much my family, but in the society I grew up in. Yeah. You paid to be funny.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

Or something. Or just keep your head down.

[Tom Brokaw]

Did you ever do anything different as just, like, something that you said? I really want to learn how to do this. Not the flying thing, but a creative endeavor. What was it?

[Craig Ferguson]

And it was. For me, it was standing.

[Tom Brokaw]

Really?

[Craig Ferguson]

Yeah. Because standup comedy was. There was, you know Billy Conley, right?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, of course.

[Craig Ferguson]

So Billy's 20 years older than me. So when I was 10 years old, Billy was 30 years old, and he was just coming to prominence in Scotland. And I had never seen anyone from my background do that.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right.

[Craig Ferguson]

It was unbelievable to me. This was like, so. I mean, Americans did that, but not. Not Scottish men from down the road. Now, Billy's a very special human being, but he was Jackie Robinson for me. He opened the door, and so that was what it was. And I thought, I'd like to be able to do that. Looks like a really cool thing to do. And through one thing and another in various endeavors, I ended up having a crack at it. And it kind of worked out here and there, and that's what led me into it.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

But it was like an instrument, you know, that if you learn to play the guitar, you play in a band, you play in a. Maybe you write a movie score, maybe you work with other people, but what you really like to do is just play the guitar.

[Tom Brokaw]

Exactly.

[Craig Ferguson]

Just play.

[Tom Brokaw]

Exactly.

[Craig Ferguson]

And that's what I love about doing it, is just playing. To be honest, I felt the same way about Late Night, too, is that eventually I thought, you know what? The guy who got me into it said, you're a natural for this. And I said, you're crazy. I don't even pay any attention to this. And he said, it doesn't matter. You're natural for them.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow.

[Craig Ferguson]

And he was right.

[Tom Brokaw]

I was, wow. I just love those stories. I mean, so we're only really limited by our own belief systems or what we've heard as kids or teenagers, because I think it's not even the limitations we put on ourselves, but sometimes a teacher or a parent or someone you admire saying something like, you can't dance.

[Craig Ferguson]

The wrong words at the wrong time.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oof. That. What was that? You just sang. And you're. Oh, my ear. And if you're a kid, you can hear that and be completely very sensitive. Crushed by it. So I think it's like. I think it's never too late. You just gotta keep creating and keep doing it. Keeping it.

[Craig Ferguson]

That's one point. When it's too late.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes, exactly.

[Craig Ferguson]

But by that time, it really is too late. Up until that point.

[Tom Brokaw]

Keep going.

[Craig Ferguson]

Keep going. Yeah, you keep going. Adore you. I adore you. I'm so happy.

[Tom Brokaw]

Thank you for having me.

[Craig Ferguson]

Anytime.

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[Craig Ferguson]

This is an iHeart podcast.