Tim Sullivan - longtime friend of Craig and author of DS George Cross books

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Joy, a Podcast"

Episode: Tim Sullivan – longtime friend of Craig and author of DS George Cross books
Host: Craig Ferguson
Guest: Tim Sullivan
Date: September 23, 2025

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Overview of the Episode

In this heartfelt and witty episode, Craig Ferguson sits down with his old friend and acclaimed crime author Tim Sullivan. The two delve into Sullivan’s career, focusing on his DS George Cross detective series, and explore wide-ranging themes: bringing authenticity to neurodiverse characters, the joy and challenge of writing, processing personal tragedy, and the evolving nature of social expectations and storytelling. Ferguson’s warmth and humor combine with Sullivan’s candor and insight for a conversation as delightful as it is deep.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Birth and Development of DS George Cross

• The Genesis of the Series
  • Tim Sullivan describes his pivot from screenwriting to crime fiction after years in TV and film, including co-writing "My Little Pony: A New Generation" (03:03).
  • Quote:
    “I just worked on My Little Pony, the New Generation. And the only place for me to go was crime fiction.”
    – Tim Sullivan [02:29]
• Motivation for Creating George Cross
  • Sullivan wanted to authentically represent an autistic lead detective, drawing from years of research and personal interest (05:32).
  • He emphasizes that George is not a Sherlock-style 'magical' detective, but an utterly real, layered character.

2. Authenticity and Representation in Fiction

• Controversy of Writing Outside Lived Experience
  • Sullivan faced industry rejection for writing an autistic character as a non-autistic author (“neuroscientific appropriation”) and chose to self-publish after extensive research and positive feedback from friends and the autistic community (08:14–09:39).
  • Quote:
    “If I get pushed back by the autistic community... I'll stop. And quite the opposite has happened.”
    – Tim Sullivan [09:36]
• Reader Response
  • Sullivan recounts moving stories of parents and readers who saw themselves or relatives in George, deepening familial understanding (09:40–10:09).

3. Crafting the World and Character of George Cross

• Building a Relatable Community
  • Craig and Tim discuss the world-building that makes the George Cross books immersive; readers return not just for the mystery, but to inhabit George’s world (11:19).
  • George’s family, particularly his engineer father, adds nuanced realism—the suggestion arises that the father may also be on the spectrum (12:15).
• Detective Fiction Tropes, Rules & Breaking Them
  • George Cross never hypothesizes or speculates (a staple of the genre), making solving crimes and writing more challenging:
    • Quote:
      “He doesn't speculate. He doesn't hypothesize. He lets others and will listen.”
      – Tim Sullivan [21:32]

4. The Realities of Personal and Professional Life

• Writing Habits & Transition from Film
  • Sullivan sets strict deadlines for himself and writes about 2,000 words a day; he had to unlearn episodic screenwriting habits when moving to novels (15:49–16:06).
• Research and Learning
  • Sullivan pursued a master's degree in crime fiction and forensics at Dundee University, deepening his expertise for the novels (24:21–25:31).
  • Anecdotes about forensic mortuary techniques and field research add detail to the writing process.
• Using Life Experience in Storytelling
  • Real-life experiences, including the darkly comic tragedy of Tim’s father dying at his wedding, directly inspire scenes in his earlier film "Jack and Sarah" (34:10–37:04).

5. On Social Change, Fame, and the Writing Life

• Social Orthodoxy & "Niceness"
  • Craig reflects on how public figures are now observed with Stasi-like scrutiny, and on changing expectations of artists—asking artists to be "nice" or relatable (45:24–47:31).
  • Quote:
    “Most people can behave themselves for 10 minutes. And so everyone is nice if you take it in a 10 minute talk show chunk.”
    – Craig Ferguson [47:03]
• Second Careers and the Joy of Writing
  • Sullivan expresses gratitude for finding a vibrant new path in later life with George Cross, and is cautious but optimistic about future adaptations (53:13–53:43).
  • On turning down TV deals:
    “I need to know where it’s going or who’s going to do it. There’s no point in selling your rights and then the timing doesn’t feel right.”
    – Tim Sullivan [53:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Neurodiversity and Research:
  “Autistic spectrum condition... is so broad. The spectrum is so broad.”
  – Tim Sullivan [07:49]

• Reader Impact:
  “A woman came up to me at a crime festival and said, ‘I just wanted to thank you... you’ve made me understand my 13 year old daughter.’”
  – Tim Sullivan [09:52]

• On George’s Interrogations:
  “He’ll ask the same question eight times as if it’s the first time he’s asked... and it wears people down.”
  – Tim Sullivan [23:13]

• Dark Humor:
  “Took me 15 years, but I killed him in the end. I killed him with crackers.”
  – Tim Sullivan, joking about acid reflux [26:41]

• Personal Loss at a Wedding:
  “My father collapsed and had a heart attack and died at my wedding... it's part of my life. It's what happened.”
  – Tim Sullivan [35:00]

• Publishing Philosophy:
  “If I get pushback from the autistic community... I’ll stop. And quite the opposite has happened.”
  – Tim Sullivan [09:36]

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Important Timestamps & Segment Highlights

• 00:00–02:21: Introduction; George Cross series explained; Craig jokes he deserves “7.5%” credit.
• 02:29–06:30: Sullivan’s transition from film/TV to writing; early encouragement; why he chose an autistic detective.
• 06:31–09:39: Research into autism; industry pushback and self-publishing; embracing reader feedback from the autistic community.
• 09:40–14:38: Developing Cross’s character and impact on readers; literary antecedents; authenticity vs. gimmick.
• 15:11–16:27: The discipline and process of Sullivan’s writing.
• 24:20–26:08: Sullivan’s forensic degree at Dundee, mortuary anecdotes, research insights.
• 34:10–37:04: Tim’s father’s death at his wedding—direct inspiration for his film "Jack and Sarah."
• 45:24–47:31: Ferguson and Sullivan on fame, changing social expectations, and the myth of "niceness."
• 53:13–54:11: On potential TV adaptations and maintaining creative control.
• 54:12–56:12: The fate of George Cross in America and discussion of cultural appetites for British crime fiction.

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Tone and Final Impressions

• Tone: Warm, witty, self-deprecating, and deeply honest; marked by Craig's signature humor and Tim's earnestness.
• Takeaways: The episode is as much a meditation on joy, resilience, and creativity as it is about crime fiction. Both men reflect on how joy persists amidst challenge—through laughter, storytelling, and authentic connection.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a masterclass not just in writing crime but in finding meaning, connection, and humor in a complicated world. Tim Sullivan’s DS George Cross books are deeply informed by research, empathy, and real life—qualities that shine through in this lively conversation with Craig Ferguson.

Transcript

[A]

This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, it's actually about an hour and a half and I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while anyway. Come and see me live on the Pants on Fire tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and we'll be adding more as the Tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com See you on the road, my dears. Welcome to the Joy Podcast. My name is Craig Ferguson. I am the host of this podcast. As you can see behind me in the beautiful streets and chimney suites and Victorian urchins, I'm in London and my guest today is a very fancy London detective writer. He's not a detective, he's a writer of detective fiction. His name is Tim Sullivan. So, Tim, what we're going to do, I think is what we have to do first is I want to talk about. Let's begin with George Cross. George Cross, the protagonist of the series of. How many books have you written with.

[B]

George in him now finishing book eight on Wednesday.

[A]

Well, you're finishing it on Wednesday. How do you know you're gonna finish it on Wednesday?

[B]

I.

[A]

And I will write chapter 100 Wednesday.

[B]

No, I kind of. Well, I've always worked to deadlines because I was a screenwriter for most of the question life. So I. I kind of need to have deadlines. I need to know on Wednesday. I deliver it the following Wednesday. So I like a week to just.

[A]

Read, read through it. You read through it for a week and go, no, I. But I feel like we should. Fair disclosure, I read the first George Cross book, which was the Dentist. Right. Which is. When's that going out in America?

[B]

October 21st.

[A]

October 21st. Right now. I read that before it was published.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I said to you, this is really good. This is really good, Tim. You should keep going with these. This is a really. What a great invention. So really the credit for George Cross books should really be me.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of people have said that.

[A]

I think so. Because although I didn't write them or have anything to do with the writing of them, I gave you early encouragement and that's gotta be 10%, I think.

[B]

Seven and a half.

[A]

Fair enough. I'll take it. But why did you go into Detective Reign?

[B]

Well, it was kind of. I mean, the joke I always make is I just worked on My Little Pony, the New Generation. And the only place for me to go was crime fiction.

[A]

Did you. Did you write?

[B]

I co wrote and co produced it.

[A]

You co wrote and co produced My.

[B]

Little Pony, A New Generation.

[A]

I haven't seen that one. Yeah, it's. What. What happens? What happens? Does the pony commit a murder or somebody killed? Is anybody killed?

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

Well, then why were you involved? You write about grisly murders. I was, after all, right?

[B]

I didn't know. I did then.

[A]

Well, what happened in the Little Pony thing, then?

[B]

How did you. Magic had left the world.

[A]

Magic had let a friend of mine.

[B]

I worked on a movie years ago called Flushed Away, an Aardman movie.

[A]

I love that movie. Flushed Away. Do you know what that was wrong with that movie? Only one thing wrong with that movie. The title. Yeah, that was the only. That was a great movie.

[B]

It's kind of English.

[A]

Yeah, it was, but it also. It made it sound like toilets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not really toileting. Who did the main voice in that film again?

[B]

Hugh Jackman.

[A]

Hugh Jackman. Has he done okay for himself since then?

[B]

Not seen much of him.

[A]

No, he doesn't. Hasn't done much, but, you know, God bless him, he was a. He was full of. He was keen.

[B]

He was lovely.

[A]

Yeah, he was lovely. That's right. Flushed Away. I loved that boys loved that film.

[B]

So the producer on that was working on My Little Pony, which had run into some trouble, and so they brought me in to do a couple of.

[A]

Weeks work, save the place.

[B]

I ended up being there for a year.

[A]

We've got problems with my little 40. Get Tim in here.

[B]

But she was talking to me. We'd been talking about 45 minutes and she was saying, you know, we had the problem with the movie and we're. We're 12 million in, and. And, you know, we've done the animatronic. And I kept saying to her, what's it called? And she kept avoiding the question, all right. And then finally, about an hour after this conversation, she said, will you do it? And I said, what is it? And she said, it's My Little Pony. And I went, you're talking to Tim Sullivan. Yeah, you do realize this? And she went, I know. And actually, it was a wonderful experience. I blew the thing up and we started again.

[A]

I don't really. Look, I. My children are both boys. Your children are both girls. So I didn't. I don't really come across My Little Pony, to be honest. Did you know anything about My Little Pony?

[B]

Yeah, I knew. Yeah. I knew a fair bit about it, but. But the interesting thing is, you know, as a brand, it's. It's one of the biggest brands in the world. It's bigger than Nike, it's bigger than. I think it's second to Coca Cola. But My Little Pony as recognition as a brand around the world, what happens?

[A]

Who is. Is there a Little Pony in it? I really don't know.

[B]

Ponies. There are unicorns.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There are ponies.

[A]

And I can't believe you worked on this. This is. I know. Fantastic. I know. How long have I known you? Since we were like in our 20s. Yeah. And you. I. You worked in My Little Pony. I didn't even know.

[B]

Nor did I, but. Yeah, so I finished that and kind of. And Covid came along.

[A]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[B]

And.

[A]

Caused by ponies.

[B]

Caused by Ponies, Yeah.

[A]

Wuhan Ponies.

[B]

And. And I kind of felt I'd really like to try something. I'd always wanted to write a book.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'd never had the guts.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I thought, why don't I try a book? And. And I'd done a lot of research into autism over the years. I'd always been interested in it, particularly in the workplace. I thought, I'm gonna write a detective novel and I'm gonna make the character autistic and have in a profoundly sort of authentic way rather than, you know, he's not a detective who looks at something and can see clues coming out.

[A]

Yeah. He doesn't have magical power. Yeah.

[B]

And so I thought, I'll just give it a go and I'll send it to a friend of ours, James Moore.

[A]

Oh, James. A hugely talented television producer.

[B]

But he also, you know, he was a prize winning novelist.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When he was Eddie trask in his 20s.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I sent it to him and said, look, you know, I sent 30,000 words. I said, look, if. If it's no good, just tell me, Right. And I'll stop. And about two weeks later, this email came back saying, off, it's brilliant. And that was it. So I decided to finish the book.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I got turned down by everyone. I got turned down.

[A]

Why do you think you get it turned out? Because you're not autistic. Was that. Was that what it was?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They said, you can't write a book about autism if you're. If you're not autistic yourself. Which is. Do you have any, do you have any attachment or any. Do you have any family? Attachment?

[B]

Just people I've known over the years.

[A]

Right.

[B]

No, it's just something that interested me in the way it's perceived. And did you?

[A]

Did you. I would imagine you have to do a lot of research, though.

[B]

Years and years of research. And this is where it sort of culminated by accident. And, you know, if you look at. If you look at Sherlock Holmes, if you look at August Dupin, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I suppose you're right. Yeah.

[B]

Put them all on the spectrum now.

[A]

Yeah, you would. Sherlock Holmes in particular, I imagine, like testing out, you know, various. Was a thousand different types of tobacco and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, you would definitely say that. Seems. Although I know people use the word spectrum all the time, I know nothing about autism. I just hear people using the word quite lazily, I think, actually.

[B]

I mean, the recognition of it has changed in many ways. And, you know, my character has what used to be called Asperger's, but it's no longer called Asperger's because Hans Asperger's now being proven to have had links with the Nazis where he was providing autistic children.

[A]

Oh, good.

[B]

And it had been rumored, but now an American academic found correspondence that proved it. So it's now called autistic spectrum condition. And it's, it's. It's a fascinating thing because it's so broad. The spectrum is so broad.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's. I mean, there's, there's. It's really. It's really down to the individuals. It looks like the person that has it. Right. Yeah.

[B]

And I mean, so I was told that I couldn't. The publishers wouldn't touch me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because I. Because it was neuroscientific appropriation.

[A]

Is that a thing?

[B]

Well, it was then. I'm not sure if it is now.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I.

[A]

Then. So what's the. Right. Hold on for a second. What's the rationale between neuroscientific and appropriation? That means if you do not have the condition in which you're writing about, then you can't write. You can't write about. Well, that's like saying, as you can't write about serial killers unless you're a serial killer, you can't write about crime and leisure, a criminal.

[B]

And I. And you know that I, I don't. You know, I've done a lot of really deep research into it, and his portrayal is very. The authenticity of his portrayal is very important to me.

[A]

Yeah. It's also easy. He's extremely likable, kind of. Yeah. I don't know if. I mean, he's not particularly sweet character. But he's, but he's very likable. He's very engaging.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I, I kind of what I, what I, well, what I said to Rachel, my wife, was, look, you know, I've done so much work on this, pretty much written two books. I'm going to self publish.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Self publishing has become this huge.

[A]

I've talked to a lot of authors on this podcast about self publishing. Larry Block does all his own now as well.

[B]

So, so I thought, right. And what I will do is I'll, I'll self publish these two novels and if I get pushed back by the autistic community, not by anyone else.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But by the autistic community, I'll stop.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And quite the opposite has happened.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And, and, and it's been quite humbling the, the number of emails I've got from people saying, my child has autism. How did you get inside his head? A woman came up to me at a crime festival and said, I just wanted to thank you. And I said, why? And she said, well, you've made me understand my 13 year old daughter. I now have a proper relationship with her and thanks to your books. And it's kind of overwhelming and it wasn't obviously what I set out to do.

[A]

I can see how that would happen, though, because in the books, not only do you have a detective who is, you know, working with the construction of his personality. Right. Which is within the autism spectrum, but you also have that detective's family life, his, his backstory, what happened to him, how he grew up, how it affected him. So it's like it's a completely rounded character. It's not just, there's been a murder detective. Right away. Let me get my pipe. The game's afoot, Watson, I mean, which is fine, but it's not that. It's more than that and it's more.

[B]

Mundane in a funny sort of way. I don't do the kind of guy who's been crucified upside down with his cog stuck in his mouth after all.

[A]

Right, all right. Yeah, let's not do that.

[B]

No, it's kind of more ordinary crimes.

[A]

Sort of, sort of English murders. Someone's been killed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is dreadful.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely dreadful. I mean, yeah, yeah, I guess so. I mean, I think the secret with George is what's been remarkable is how the character has resonated with the reader. I never get emails about the plot or the writing. It's always about George.

[A]

Well, I think, because, like, if I was going, because I've read them All. I haven't read the one you're going to finish on Wednesday, but I will, obviously. And what I get from it is it's one of those things that you like. I mean, Sherlock Holmes does this, you know, tons of. Not just detective. No. You create a world and you want to go into that world, you want to roll around in it. And because of the nature of George's profession, that will involve a murder. Right. It gives you a narrative line. But it's really about being in the world, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, I think so. And I mean, he's got, you know, he's got great characters around him. He has his. He has his working partner, Otti.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's almost his conduit to the real world.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This translates for him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But she understands him because he's quite eccentric in the way he works.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And his father, who's devoted to him, who was an engineer, their relationship is very special.

[A]

Father's a very unusual character, I think.

[B]

Well, I think he's probably on the spectrum as well.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I never thought of that. Yeah.

[B]

But it's. But, well, you know, in this country, you often find that with male people with asc, the father is something like an engineer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In Silicon Valley, they're all coders, you know, the parents are all coders. I think it was. I don't know if it was Zuckerberg or someone was asked, you know, would he be surprised to find out that a lot of his employees were autistic? To which he replied, I'd be surprised if they weren't.

[A]

Right. I guess some professions, it would probably be more welcoming to having that condition. Do you think a homicide detective. Have you met an autistic policeman? Have you come across.

[B]

No, I've had emails from him.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. I've had emails from about three or four. One female serving police officer. And, you know, I often get emails saying, well, not often, but I've had the other email saying, well, how would he get through the police academy? You go, there you go. There's the prejudice about autism.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Why shouldn't he? He's really, really good at what he does.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he does it in a very unique way. I saw a documentary once by Simon Baron Cohen as a professor of autism at Cambridge, and he had done this thing about putting autistic people into job situations where they might not sort of be welcomed.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there was one in a small company where they were having a real problem with software. There was a software glitch and they could not work it out and it was costing a load of money. And this autistic bloke went in and went, well, if you could just give me the key instructions. And they went, but there are hundreds and thousands of them going, yes, but if you just give me those. And he sat for about five days and just went through with the patients. No one else would, and found the problem immediately was employed.

[A]

It's very interesting. It really is something I know nothing about. And in fact, in literature, even I hadn't encountered it, certainly in a. I guess if you talk about Sherlock Holmes and stuff like that, then. Yeah, but. But I. I had never encountered it as a description of a character. Yeah, I don't think I've seen it. Are you aware of, well, as Mark.

[B]

Haddon's, you know, Curiosity of the Dog in the Night.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The incident. It was wonderful book. Yeah. And he got a bit of flack at the time because he's not. You know, I was asked if my children were autistic and you think, does that got to do with anything? I think the thing is that my character's autism isn't like Inspector Morse's Jaguar. It's not.

[A]

Yeah, it's not enough. It's not an eccentricity. Yeah, you're right. It's not a gimmick.

[B]

And it's quite difficult because, you know, there are certain rules.

[A]

I was going to ask you that. When you're writing it, are there times when you think he wouldn't. That you can't do that because that doesn't follow the rules.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's really. I get quite cross with him at times.

[A]

I mean, we. Are you going to be able to finish by Wednesday? I'm worried.

[B]

No, no, I think so. I think so, yeah. No, I think we're okay. But it's.

[A]

It is actually, as I talk to you, think about this, you know, why do you think, Tim, that you have to get this finished by Wednesday? Do you think maybe, Tim, you're beginning to pick up on a few of George's habits? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's kind of like I said, Wednesday. And therefore it will be.

[A]

It will be Wednesday. It has to be done by Wednesday.

[B]

I kind of have to know how much I'm writing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I have a certain. I can write a certain amount in a day and then it's gone, it's spent.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's around about 2, 000 words a day on a good day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I can sort of calculate and it. And with me coming from A screenwriting, tv, film background.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I had to be very careful that my novels weren't very episodic, that the rhythms of the books initially were quite episodic. And you. It's such a different skill writing a book. And so kind of knowing how much I'm writing dictates in my head how much I proportionately I'm giving to scenes and sequences.

[A]

Did you start thinking of it like, when I first met you? We were in Manchester. Yeah, right. And it was. It's got to be about 1988, something like that, right? Yeah, it was four years before I got sober and. Yeah, certainly. I seem to remember you going toe to toe in a few bars with me at that time.

[B]

I don't remember that.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. But the. You were working on Sherlock Holmes. Yeah, I was doing the. You were directing the Sherlock Holmes with Jeremy Brett. Yeah, these were great shows.

[B]

Yeah, they were terrific shows. And he was. I think he was an incomparable.

[A]

He was a great. He was a great. Him and Basil Rathbone are my favorites.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I mean, they're. They're the real. I think of Sherlock Holmes as that kind of hawk faced, you know, hair slick back. Yeah, yeah. Him and Jeremy Brett and Brazil wrath.

[B]

Yeah. And Jeremy is just wonderful. I mean, mad as a hat and wonderful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Brilliant, brilliant actor.

[A]

But was it. So did it begin then, then the fascination? I think so.

[B]

Well, it began before then. I. I came into crime fiction knowing and loving crime fiction through American crime fiction.

[A]

Well, who did you read?

[B]

Chandler. Right, right. And then lately, Michael Connolly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah, He's a fabulous writer.

[A]

Michael Connolly put me in one of his books, you know. Did he? Yeah. I'm not trying to, you know, lead you to anything, but I'm in one of the Michael's books.

[B]

I'll take you out of this one then.

[A]

Right. Well, you're buying it.

[B]

Oh, see, but I'm thinking of, you know that all my titles are named after the victim.

[A]

Right. So there's the Dentist, the Politician, the Cyclist, the Patient. Right.

[B]

The teacher.

[A]

Right. What's the new one called?

[B]

Bookseller.

[A]

The.

[B]

The new one that I'm delivering on Wednesday at 12:35.

[A]

Okay. 12:37, I think you said to me.

[B]

It's called the Tailor.

[A]

The Tailor. So, bloke that make trash. Yes.

[B]

I am thinking of doing one called the Comedian.

[A]

Okay. So, you know, what about doing one. What, you would kill a comedian?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that like that's getting canceled? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's funny. The. In the world, I Guess it's, It's. You can kill anybody, right?

[B]

Anybody. Everyone gets killed.

[A]

Everyone dies.

[B]

Yeah, everyone dies. But, you know, some people get killed. And it is that. You know, when I, I wrote the Monk.

[A]

Partly because I love that one. I think that's my favorite.

[B]

Oh, thank you. Partly because, you know, I. I was an altar boy in a monastery till I was 16.

[A]

Oh, okay. But we'll get back to that. I think you may have to lie down and we'll do some therapy.

[B]

Yeah. And. And the question is, who wants to kill a monk?

[A]

Yes, I remember that one. That's the key. That may actually be, as I think about it, that may be the darkest one so far, the Monk. Although I haven't read, you know, the. What's the new one called? Taylor the Tail. I've read the Tail.

[B]

Yeah. Taylor kind of. The Tail is good. It takes Georgia into a slightly different world.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It doesn't take him out of Bristol, does it?

[B]

No, it doesn't take him out of Bristol. He's very, very central to Bristol. Right, but it's.

[A]

Do you, are you connected to Bristol?

[B]

Yeah, I grew up in Bristol.

[A]

All right, so you're allowed to write about Bristol.

[B]

I'm allowed to write about Bristol.

[A]

Right, okay. Because there aren't. Because, you know, if you don't grow up in Bristol, you're not allowed to write about Bristol.

[B]

But, you know, write about what you know. You know, that's the thing in the end.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I now happen to know a bit about autism. Not in the same way as, you know, Tony Hatwood, the Australian expert, or Simon Baron Cohen or Temple Grandin. But, but, you know, I.

[A]

Are these people. I, I know Temple, academics.

[B]

Temple. Temple's an American who, Who has written an anomalous.

[A]

Yeah, but, but she is, she's autistic. Are the, are the other ones autistic? No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it is. What's the study called then? Is a, is a, is a neuroscience.

[B]

Yeah, I say, yeah, it was neurodiverse. Neurotypical.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I mean, I'm reading all the time. I mean, you know, I've just read two books by two female stand up comedians in this country who are autistic.

[A]

Really? Who is that?

[B]

Can't remember the names.

[A]

All right, fair enough. Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, I, I've just bought a book about being married to an autistic person.

[A]

Which you are not, because I know.

[B]

You know, but it's, it's that notion of Georgian relationships. Haven't really gone them. That's interesting. Oh, but, yeah, but it's kind of like, I don't know enough about that.

[A]

Yeah. What's that Netflix show Love on the Spectrum? Have you seen that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I saw a couple episodes, and I'm like. I don't know how comfortable I am with this. I feel like. I feel a little uncomfortable. I'm not sure why.

[B]

Yeah, it could be probably because you felt it was exploitative. That.

[A]

I kind of feel like a lot of stuff is. Particularly any kind of reality television. I'm like, I feel like this is none of my business.

[B]

None of my business. But also, there's that voyeuristic aspect. It's like with George, as well as having the rules, where George. George doesn't have any gut instincts about cases, which is frustrating. He doesn't have hunches he doesn't like.

[A]

He can't have a hunch. Yeah.

[B]

He doesn't speculate. He doesn't hypothesize. He lets others and will listen and. I've completely forgotten what I was gonna say.

[A]

No, but I was gonna say to you about that thing that you said about George where he doesn't hypothesize it. He doesn't run scenarios, which is, of course, a staple of detective fiction, is you go, well, let's run the scenario. Maybe if he did this and do that. I mean, just about every other single detective you come across, they run the scenario and he never does. Which I think is a really hard rule to set yourself in that job.

[B]

It's very tough. I mean, occasionally his colleagues will do it, but I remember what I was gonna say, that I have a rule about George which is, we never, ever laugh at George.

[A]

No, no, he must.

[B]

We often laugh at people around him in their reactions to him, and we often laugh when he's unknowingly funny. I mean, in the Dentist, one of my favorite lines, they start to investigate an ex policeman who used to be his boss when he started. And, you know, he was treated quite badly. He was bullied.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And. And he rings the doorbell and this retired police officer opens the door and goes, oh, it's PC Odd. To which George replies, actually, it's DS Odd now. And it's just like. And he doesn't mean it as a joke. What? He thinks it's really funny. He doesn't get it. He's just trying to point out that he's got the rank wrong.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He's not going to question rudeness.

[A]

The rudeness of it, because he knows. But it's the inaccuracy. Yeah.

[B]

And the great thing about George is he's very aware of his effect on other people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He doesn't always understand it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But he's quite aware of it. And that's why he's so brilliant at interviewing people. He'll ask the same question eight times as if it's the first time he's asked.

[A]

That's right. I remember that from the interview scenes. That wears people down.

[B]

And it wears people down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he doesn't respond emotionally to their situation.

[A]

What about the. The crimes themselves? I mean, because there are some. I remember now in the Monk is a particularly grisly crime. And there's the booksellers, a bit of a horrible crime as well, that. The crime aspect of it. Did you do a lot of. I mean, have you been around a lot of morgues and murder detect? Because I would imagine especially doing Sherlock Holmes as well, back in the day, you kind of. People get mad unless you get accurate about that.

[B]

You got to be accurate. But actually, again, during COVID when I was at the point in which I was thinking, oh, I'm not sure if I can write whatever, I started looking around for writing courses and I came across a degree in Dundee University, which was crime writing. That's in Scott. That's in Scotland. It is.

[A]

That's where I'm from.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm very excited about this.

[B]

And I did. I. I have a degree, a master's in literature in crime fiction and forensic investigation.

[A]

Front door.

[B]

You from Dundee University.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And did you go to Dundee?

[A]

Yes. You didn't tell me that.

[B]

Yeah. And Dundee is one of the central kind of areas of expertise of forensic science in Europe. And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dame Sue Black, who was the forensic anthropologist there and the head of the. The department is world famous, really. She's now in Oxford and she set up this course with Val McDermott and there's a great story. And they had. They have a mortuary. They're very famous because they. They have taken on this thing where you embalm bodies called the teal method. When you embalm a body, they. They kind of go, well, they obviously lifeless, but they look lifeless, they look gray, and they. Their arms and stuff don't articulate properly when the rigor is gone. Teal preserves the flesh color. Teal preserves all the articulation in the joint. A better than embalming.

[A]

An undertaking technique.

[B]

It's really for medical science.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So that when doctors. When student doctors are, you know, dissecting hands, they still work and they can see how it works properly. Anyway, they suggested the Lee Child, that they named the mortuary after him, to which he replied, not so sure. The child Mortuary.

[A]

Yeah. No, that's bad. Yeah.

[B]

So I think It's a Val McDermott mortuary, but yeah, so. So I studied the first year forensic scientists and that was fascinating. You know, forensic anthropology, all the techniques. I mean, I know more about burned human remains than I need to know, really.

[A]

Does it keep you up at night, that stuff?

[B]

No, not as much as the acid reflux.

[A]

Well, as anyone. You can die from acid reflux, but I don't know if you can kill anyone.

[B]

You can maybe disguise it.

[A]

Well, you disguise it. No. Well, I mean, acid reflux, you know, linked perhaps Barrett's esophagus. Linked perhaps esophageal cancer, which was what my dad died of. Right. But I don't know if you could, like, feed someone starchy foods enough for them.

[B]

Took me 15 years, but I killed him in the end.

[A]

I killed him with crackers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. I would tell. Get my Rennies. Get my Rennies. No, no, I'm sorry, I can't hand you your. Your Tums tablets. But did you go up to Dundee then and poke him in with dead bodies?

[B]

Yeah, we didn't actually poke the dead bodies because Covid restrictions.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

But we did.

[A]

Oh, there. Oh, I see Things. I could get there.

[B]

Yeah. We did things like reassemble skeletons and we did lots of crime scene photography. But actually the. The.

[A]

You ever been to a crime scene? No, no, it's probably. It's probably too much, but years ago.

[B]

In the 80s, around about the time I met you, I went to Bordeaux to set up the ITV series of May Gray, which in the end.

[A]

I know you've done that.

[B]

Yeah, well, it didn't work out for me in the end. We had creative differences.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

That old chestnut.

[A]

Yeah. And it was Michael, we say, scheduling differences.

[B]

Michael Gambon, bless him, and who was lovely and was upset that I didn't end up doing it. But I was in Bordeaux, which was where we were going to shoot Paris from the 50s, because.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And friend of the location manager was a murder detective. So they took me into the archives and this was extraordinary because they brought out crime scene photographs from the 1950s. And I remember one in particular. It was a kitchen, a really downhill kitchen, and there was a man who looked like he'd been grotted at the oven and. And was dead. And there was another man dead in the corner. And the detective said, so what do you think? And I went, well, you know, obviously he's been strangled by the wire. And he went, yeah, yeah. And I went. The other body went on. You're just looking in the wrong place. What do you mean? He went, look at the table. So I looked at the table and I went, it's a game of cards. Yeah. How many hands? I went, three. And he went, there you go. And I just thought, oh, that's brilliant.

[A]

So.

[B]

So I get it. The third hand's the killer. Or is the third hand the killer? There are only two bodies, but there are three.

[A]

Two bodies. Three hands of cars. So they were playing cards and someone went nuts and garroted one guy.

[B]

And who knows, Right?

[A]

Oh, they never found out.

[B]

I didn't know. I can't remember.

[A]

All right, what you should do is do the Frenchman and then rewrite. Put George on his holidays in France.

[B]

Yeah. Because you could go by Tran because he doesn't fly.

[A]

Oh, that's right. Which is interesting, because flying is the safest form of transport available.

[B]

That gives him a quandary because he has done his research in statistics. It's more to do with the proximity of people and the circulation of air.

[A]

But the circulation of air, because I went through this, I'm fascinated by flying as well. And the idea that. Because during COVID people were terrified of flying, like you get in a plane, but the machines they use in. For air purification in airplanes, in big airliners, similar to the ones that are used in operating rooms for purification. So the air in a plane is pretty pure. The airports are filthy. And of course, over the course of a long flight, the toilets on an airplane seem to get a little gamey. Not from me. I'm not saying I do it, but, you know, all right, it's me as I do it.

[B]

But I think the other thing that I do with George, again, partly because of his condition, is he's an outsider in a way.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And. And often his victims are outsiders who have lost their voice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I can. I always try and do some bit of social issue in the book. So in the Dentist, it's a homeless man.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the murder's dismissed by the police as well. It's homeless on homeless violence. And he sees that next to the body is a. Is a carrier bag with vodka in it. Vodka's huge currency on the streets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one would have left.

[A]

No one would have left.

[B]

And that's what. And he wants to. And he. And he. What fascinates him is this man wasn't always homeless. He's in his 50s or 80s, I can't tell because the condition he's in.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But he started somewhere. Where was that? And did that lead to this? And those are the kind of puzzles that fascinate him. And I think that the one thing I do is when I start a book, I don't know who's killed the person.

[A]

You don't. You start with the murder and then you have to solve it.

[B]

So that means George and I are always on the same page.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Which means the reader is always on the same page. Reader can never get ahead. When I had one person at a crime festival once say, excuse me, I knew on page 157 who had done it. And I went, congratulations. Because I didn't.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

And. And you know George, if I come to a dead end, which I often do, not a writing block, but a dead end, well, then George has. And he's got to figure my way out.

[A]

That's fascinating.

[B]

As a writer, he's got to figure my way out.

[A]

Do you. So obviously you feel a great deal of affection for him, right?

[B]

You love George. I mean, I love George. I mean, I. You know, it's wonderful to have found a character that you love spending time with that makes you laugh. In the Tailor, I won't go into too much detail, but there's a situation where someone needs to take his inside leg measurement, Right. And it's a female. And she says, would you prefer if Malcolm did it? To which he replies, my discomfort is gender non specific.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And I love that about George. I don't know where it comes from, but I love it. And I.

[A]

Well, you understand the rules. You understand George's rules, and I think that's where it comes from. I get it. I mean, it's interesting. Cause the more you read it, I feel like as a reader of the stuff about George, I get to understand how he's gonna play. Like when he goes into a situation or if there's like a bad guy or a rude person or someone you're not rooting for. You're like, get him in a fucking room with George and we'll get this sorted.

[B]

And I think that's a great secret to successful writing is where the audience and with filmmaking can anticipate what your character is going to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I think it's the politician or the teacher where Cross has his own office. He's the only one who has his own office. Because he can't work in the open area.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because he's got auditory problems.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, which people with autism sometimes do. So he can't stand all the noise, can't stand the sound of people typing, can't stand the sound of people eating, you know, so he's got an office on his own. And I felt that George was having a bit of an easy ride, so I brought. I made Otti, his partner, move house, and then a new partner's brought in, is an absolute wanker.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the audience know there's trouble. I know when this detective is seen walking across the. The open area with two detectives behind him, carrying a desk into Cross's room. And the reader goes, oh, oh, it's gonna be bad.

[A]

It's gonna be bad. You can't do this and that. That.

[B]

You know, I'm very. I'm, you know, I'm very fortunate on two. Two counts. I'm very fortunate to discovered at my ancient age a new direction.

[A]

Well, this is. And this character, because I've known you for years, you're a director of film and television. You write, you write. You write and direct film and television. In fact, the. The last feature film I guess you did was Jack and Sarah. Right. Which is the one.

[B]

That's the last one I wrote and directed.

[A]

Right. Which is a. A romantic comedy. Yeah, well, a romantic story.

[B]

It does have a death.

[A]

It does have a death. But that, when I saw that, I was like. It reminded me of what happened at your wedding.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which Is that where it was from?

[B]

Yeah. Tell us.

[A]

Take us through briefly, if you don't mind. What happened at your wedding?

[B]

It was 89.

[A]

And remember that I wasn't there. No, but I remember hearing you were.

[B]

I don't know where you were. I don't know if you knew where you were.

[A]

I was. There was three years before I go, so I was in the world. I was unavailable.

[B]

Yeah, basically. Sadly, tragically, as my wife and I left the civil church in Ghana Peninsula in Wales. It's beautiful.

[A]

Right after the ceremony, right after ceremony.

[B]

Walking down the pass and people are throwing, you know, confetti and stuff towards the.

[A]

It.

[B]

Lychgate, I think. L I C H L Y C H. And Rachel suddenly goes, oh, my God. Your father. My father collapsed, basically. My father collapsed and had a heart attack and died at my wedding. So literally, minutes after we've had our last photograph taken together, I'm giving him CPR and in an ambulance with him, and then we get to the hospital and he's gone. And it was a sort of terrible moment. I. It's A kind of. I mean, as a writer, you. You remember these things. Because I remember giving my father the cpr, thumping his chest and thinking, my parents got married in 1948. And I was thinking, who won the best Oscar for best director in 1948? I don't know.

[A]

So it goes through your head.

[B]

That was what was going through my head.

[A]

Weird.

[B]

What does it matter? What does it matter who won the Oscar? This is what happens.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To all of us.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And. And kind of. That was weird. And, you know, everyone had traveled down from London. It's a good 200 miles. So we had, you know, we were going to go ahead with the reception. And I got back from the. I had two best men. There's. One of them said, now I know why you've had two best men. One for the hospital, one for the reception. And I got back and my dear late father in law came up to me and said, tim, you know, we've decided to cancel the speeches. And I went, like, fuck, I spent ages on this speech. And I. There's just no way we're doing the speeches. We. My father would be mortified at what's happened, but he would be horrified if we didn't go ahead with all of this because we're never going to do it again. And so I made my speech. Our friend James made the speech as an evangelical vicar, talking about how we'd be living in sin for years. And it kind of was what it was. The next year's anniversary was mixed. But in the end, it's part of my life. It's what happened.

[A]

And it's funny, though, because. Or peculiar, though, because it is something. It was the stuff of legend at the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The. You know, and there was this large extended group of people which you and I were both part of, both in Manchester and London, of people who were. You were. You. Didn't you do. What was the name of that comedy show you did with all of those Stephen Fry and Emma Talk.

[B]

Al Fresco.

[A]

Al fresco. Right. And it was all that group of fabulouses. And there was the London Mob. And I was with Helen at the time. And also I was. Have you heard of Cocaine?

[B]

Oh, the Eric Clapton track.

[A]

No, no, no. The. The. It's a vitamin to help you drink.

[B]

Oh, yes, I heard.

[A]

Yeah, I was. I was doing that at the time as well. That's. But. And there was a lot of that going on at the time. It was such a mad, mad time. And I did. How were you in that? You. I mean, because I remember some nights out being out very late with you Singing and shouting in the streets of Manchester and mostly Manchester. Mostly Manchester. Cause in London your kids were born. You behaved a lot better when you were down here.

[B]

Yeah, but it was weird because it was dealing with other people's reactions that was strange because I was. We obviously had to cancel our honeymoon, Right. And then I was shooting a detective series in four weeks.

[A]

Were you doing Sherlock Holmes?

[B]

No, it was called El Cid with Fred Molina and John Bird.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And so I had to go in to work on the Monday, the Tuesday, and it was like people coming up and bursting into tears. And it was like a real lot to deal with. And then I hadn't seen Rachel. Rachel had. Rachel had stayed with her dad and he was an academic and he'd gone off to do a talk, and she went with him and I was on my own. And then my sister phoned me up, said, you've got to go and open the house up for Mum on Thursday. And in the middle of all of this, I thought, I haven't seen. I've just got married. I haven't seen Rachel. So I said to Rachel, you gotta. You've gotta come to London. I've got to see you on Thursday. Come up on Thursday. And a friend of mine. At 12:37, at 12:42. So Rachel came up and a friend of mine, Derek Granger. Yeah, producer. Would organize for us to stay in this beautiful hotel. It explained to them what had happened. And we had a suite at this hotel called the Halcyon in Holland Park. And Rachel arrives and Rachel has a ponchon for dressing in black. She always.

[A]

Which was magnificent woman, Rachel, your wife.

[B]

And so she arrived at work and everyone's making a fuss of her. Then we get in the taxi to go to this hotel and I realize she's not talking to me. Why aren't you talking to me? And we're in a black cap, you know, And I go, are you not talking to me? Because my dad died at our wedding. And she went, he spoiled everything. And I went, are you serious? We had this terrible row.

[A]

Did you really?

[B]

This huge row in the back of the cabin, yelling at each other, with a cab driver, listening, thinking, what is this?

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

And we arrived at the Halcyon and. And the. He. The manager came out to greet us because, you know, Derek had briefed him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Came out and said, I've got your sweep ready. And Rachel swear now off walk past him. And I just thought, oh, no, marriage is over. Marriage is over. We haven't Even started marriage is over. But it was just. Was something she needed to express.

[A]

It's a, it must have been a very. Because it's very complicated. What are the rules for that? There's nobody. There's no template for it. You don't expect it. It's not like no rules.

[B]

But I think you, you have to bear him in mind. You have to bear in mind what he would have wanted.

[A]

Right.

[B]

My mother never forgave me. I never really got on with my mother, but she never forgave me for that.

[A]

Never forgive you for your father dying at the wedding.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I fail to see your culpability in it.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

Right?

[B]

There you go. But yeah, no, it is, it is complicated. It's kind of. And then, you know, even years later, I, I, I wrote a piece for the Guardian.

[A]

I remember. Yeah.

[B]

And it went viral.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then a few weeks later, I was at a crime festival with the incomparable Ellie Griffiths, very famous crime writer here in the uk, and another writer, and he said, oh, God, I read your piece, you know. Oh, thanks, Harriet. And she went, what piece is that? And I said, oh, the die cut piece I wrote a couple weeks ago, but my father died. She went, oh, my God, that was you. And it has that kind of resonance. Yeah, it has that kind of.

[A]

Well, it's a, it's an extremely dramatic. Almost kind of like in fiction. You would doubt it. Know what I mean? Because, like, it's too, it's too much. You know, you would say that. That couldn't. Yeah, yeah. Right on the nose.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But it's. I got up, you know, to make the speech and, and there was still a kind of odd atmosphere a little bit. And I just started by saying my father always had the most remarkable sense of timing. And everyone just started clapping and cheering and, and that was it.

[A]

It's a very, It's a very odd.

[B]

How long have you been.

[A]

Rachel Been married? It's like 40 years now or something.

[B]

36.

[A]

36.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's a long time ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it still has that very odd. I guess every anniversary must be a weird kind of birth week.

[B]

No, the first few, but not anymore.

[A]

Really.

[B]

No.

[A]

It's interesting.

[B]

Not anymore. I mean, the people I'm really crossing with are Mossbros, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he hired a suit from Mospros.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

And when he went into emergency theater, they cut it with scissors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they charged me full price.

[A]

Shut up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Shame on Moss Bros. Moss Bros, of course, are the, the wedding hire People.

[B]

And I explained the situation to charge me full whack.

[A]

They really did.

[B]

Never been back to Moss Bruss.

[A]

Are they still going Moss Bros? Yeah, they're still in business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, well, no wonder, actually. You can die in one of their suits and still not away with paying for it. Good Lord. That's. I feel like. Because I've known about this story for 36 years at least. I never knew that. And now I find that the most shocking part of it. I was like, no, they didn't charge you for the suit. That's crazy. Did you give them back some of the suit? Do you give the hat back and stuff like that, or did they charge them?

[B]

They just charge.

[A]

That's. That's unconscionable. That's just terrible. That's a terrible thing. Is that why you wrote the Tailor? And should it. Should you. Do you kill off people in stories that you're resentful against? Like, do you.

[B]

You should, yeah. The teacher.

[A]

The te. Oh, the teacher.

[B]

So I went to a prep school when I was nine.

[A]

Now explain to Americans what a prep school is.

[B]

The school is a school before high school, right? So it's five to 13 for boys.

[A]

Right. So it's an elementary school, I guess in America. I didn't do much school.

[B]

I was sent to this. It felt like an internment camp in deepest Somerset where there was an alcoholic headmaster. He had six Alsatian dogs, all named after Wagner operas, which I think should have been.

[A]

That's slightly Nazi, isn't it?

[B]

And he was a sadist. I mean, there was a sexual kind of abuse, but he was a sadist. He beat the crap out of us day in day.

[A]

Yeah, I had a few teachers like that, too.

[B]

So I've killed the.

[A]

Yeah, good, good.

[B]

As Stephen Fry said to me, gosh, that is revenge served very, very cold.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Steven was a. Was an early fan of George Cross as well, wasn't he, Bless him. Yeah, yeah. He's good news, Stephen.

[B]

Yeah, Love Steven.

[A]

He's a lifelong North Londoner like you as well, isn't he?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

He. And the late Douglas Adams was up that end as well. Did you know Douglas?

[B]

No, I met him, um, that's him, oddly, in a playground with our children shortly before he died.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

In high brick. He was a talent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A little complex.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, most talented people are a little complex. And. And I. I find the complexity of people right now is. Is a little unfair in a time when, you know, we. We live in this self imposed sort of observation we're all like the Stasi looking at each other. And we have these things so that we can keep an eye on what's going on. There is an orthodoxy of behavior that is expected, which I find quite odd.

[B]

Stifling.

[A]

Well, it's interesting because, you know, I did this. I used to do a late night show. I don't know if you know this. I did this late night show in America. And.

[B]

That'S why I wrote the books. Cause I wanted to get on the show. But then you.

[A]

I stopped doing that show 10 years ago. You didn't start writing, George, until about nine years ago. So don't give me that. No, spoil the story. No, it just doesn't wash, that's all. But I met a lot of very famous, very talented people in that time. And people ask me about it over the years. I mean, I did over 2,000 of these shows. And people say to me, if they find out celebrity A, B, C or D was on it, they will say to me, what are they like? I mean, what do you mean, are they nice? I'm like, well, I don't know. I talk to them for 10 minutes. Most of them in 10 minutes gone. Most people can behave themselves for 10 minutes. And so everyone is nice if you take it in a 10 minute talk show chunk. But I find it fascinating that you would ask about a great artist, are they nice? What is it? For me, my opinion is, personally, I don't really care.

[B]

It goes along with all that Never meet Heroes nonsense.

[A]

Well, I did do that with Bowie. I would never invite Bowie on the show. I don't know if he would ever come on the show. But I thought, don't wanna risk that. Don't wanna risk that.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah. But I feel like now I wouldn't have that rule for myself. Yeah, I'd be like, yeah, it's fine, it doesn't matter now.

[B]

But yeah, I mean, it's interesting the kind of, the way social behavior has changed so much.

[A]

It always does though. I mean, it sort of ebbs and flows all the time. I mean, behavior in ancient Persia would probably be seen as a little licentious now.

[B]

Yeah, well, our behavior in 1988 in Manchester.

[A]

I don't even wish to discuss that. No, it's funny, there was a lot of, you know, when I think about, you know, like singing and shouting and being up too late and having very firm opinions about fuck knows what at the time and then all falling over and stuff like that. I'm glad I did all that. Without the eye of Soaring upon me. You know what I mean? It's like. I think about that now with.

[B]

Shocking.

[A]

Yeah. How do you be an alcoholic now and not get into shocking trouble? I mean, I got into pretty shocking trouble anyway. But did you make a fool of yourself? Which is 99% of what I did when I drank is like, make a fool of myself to fall over or develop rapid onset incontinence. But it seems like a difficult time to be young. I fear for the young. You have your kids in their early 20s, right?

[B]

30S.

[A]

30S. Jesus.

[B]

I have a grandchild now.

[A]

Oh, shut up.

[B]

Another one coming along.

[A]

Congratulations. Do you have slippers and a cardigan?

[B]

They're too young for that.

[A]

No, you. You. Slippers and a cardigan. No, children could wear cardigans. It's perfectly legal now.

[B]

I like cardigans. I like a good cardigan.

[A]

Yeah, you never used to. No, no, it's. That's what.

[B]

But I won't. I draw the line at slippers.

[A]

Do you have a. A cup. A mug that says World's Greatest Granddad?

[B]

Not yet. That's a good point.

[A]

Yeah, you'll be getting someone slipped up there. Oh, no. You'll be getting one. It's almost. Almost certain to be out.

[B]

I do have my daughters, both got married within a year. I do have an Emma Bridgewater mug, which has been changed to say father of the brides.

[A]

Oh, nice, nice. What's an Emma Bridgewater mug?

[B]

Emma Bridgewater. She's a very famous ceramicist in this.

[A]

Country, first of all. You say that like I would know any famous ceramicists. I didn't even know a ceramicist was a.

[B]

She's got a line of wonderful mug and cups, plates and dishes and.

[A]

What did she sell them at?

[B]

Like, I bet your wife has got some. And you just.

[A]

Yes. I mean, that's Megan, though. Megan would. I mean, she lives for China. Yeah, there's the. Not necessarily the country. I mean, I don't know. She's perfectly fine with China, but the China.

[B]

The China's in my latest book.

[A]

The country or the Country. George doesn't go to China.

[B]

No, he doesn't go to China.

[A]

But something happens in China. Well, it's a big country, I guess. I mean, things can happen there.

[B]

Have you ever spent time there?

[A]

Never been there. Have you?

[B]

Yeah, 10 months. I tried to make a movie in Mandarin. I don't speak Mandarin.

[A]

Well, you don't speak My Little Pony either, and you did that.

[B]

I know. That's true. Yeah, I spent about 10 months.

[A]

How did you write dialogue for my Little pony. How did you in particular, you profane foul mouthed arse.

[B]

Well, they do. No, it has to be said that they did bring in Julian Barrow who's very. An expert on to, to redo all the dialogue and make and, and reponify some of the Tim's.

[A]

Reponify your kind of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're gonna pay for this.

[B]

The first time I've got. Very pontified.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't have the, the pony say you're gonna pay for this. Yeah. It's not gonna happen.

[B]

It's not gonna work.

[A]

You're right. Okay. So it's been lovely talking to you, Tim. I, I, I'm looking forward to reading the Tailor. Yeah, well, I know what happens to the tailor. I can tell you right now.

[B]

He gets stitched up.

[A]

Oh, that's very good.

[B]

Now I'm used to actually.

[A]

No, no, I, I, no, I was, what I was going to say was because they always die. Yeah. The people that you like if it's cold. That's why. If it's cold. The Tailor. I know that the tailor's going to die.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pretty early on in the book usually. Yeah, usually. I mean, I gotta be honest with you. Usually by page two somebody's dead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you have a rule about that? No, just this, the way it happened.

[B]

It happens a little bit later in the bookseller.

[A]

Oh yeah. So it does. That's right. Cause you get to know them a bit which is, you know. That's right. I remember in the bookseller. Cause you follow the old fellow at first and you think he's gonna get killed and it's horrible because he's nice and he's having a nice day. Yank. This guy's having a lovely day.

[B]

Yeah, but, yeah, no, the, the, yeah, the tailor. No, I'm trying to remember. Death happens quick.

[A]

It has to.

[B]

It's a detective and that comes out the books, you know, with the. The Dentist is coming out in October and then a book a month is coming out next year in America.

[A]

In America.

[B]

So from January through till July when the Taylor will come out.

[A]

What happens to. When you. The inevitable screen portrayal of George Cross, which will happen at some point, I am sure. Who would you like to see play?

[B]

I don't do that because. For two reasons. One is I don't want to give my readers an impression of who he is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Two, if I say that and then I don't get him, I'll be disappointed.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there are different ways of approaching it. But you know, I don't, you Know, the great thing is I'm just enjoying it so much and the TV and film world seems so insanely.

[A]

It's a little volatile, if you know, if you noticed. It's, you know, I've got lots of.

[B]

Director friends are really jealous of the fact that I found a second career at my age.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, when they're all struggling to get work in their 60s and, and, and so, you know, a lot of crime writers are thrilled when their rights get bought, but I've turned down several offers because I need to know where it's going or who's going to do it. There's no point in selling your rights and then the timing doesn't feel right for me, George, at the moment. It will be maybe at some point.

[A]

Yeah, it'll happen. I mean, it's an absolute inevitability.

[B]

I don't know about that.

[A]

No, I do, I do. And I knew, by the way, just to remind you before you had publish the first one. I told you then. This will happen. Yeah, this will happen.

[B]

It'd be nice. I mean, obviously it'd be, it would, it would be lovely to get George out there in the world. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm really thrilled that George is going to America. It'll be really interesting to see how America, I mean, when I self published, 29% of my market was in America.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it'll be really interesting to see and I get lots of emails from America how, how he's perceived.

[A]

I think there's a big appetite for British, clever British crime fiction in the United States. I don't know if you've noticed. It seems quite popular and I think clever crime fiction is popular anywhere though. From anywhere too. Anywhere, I think, because it has the cognitive challenge of trying to figure out and the story will reach an inevitable conclusion. They used to have this TV show on Scottish television when I was a kid called. There's a very unique illegal verdict in Scotland. I don't know if it exists anywhere else in the world. Most places in the world you're either guilty or not guilty. In Scotland they have a verdict. I don't know if they still have it, but they used to have a verdict called Not Proven. So it was, you could have guilty, not guilty or not proven. And they used to have a TV show called Verdict Not Proven.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I always used to feel like. About myself, well, verdict, no, not proven, not proven.

[A]

But it's such an odd thing. Basically I asked a cop about it once in Glasgow and he Said he feels that the verdict not proven means we know you did it. We can't fucking prove it.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And I think there's a lot of that happens in crime.

[B]

Yeah. 100% would drive me crazy.

[A]

I had a friend who was a cop in Bakersfield, which is a pretty lively town to the north of Los Angeles, and he gave it up. He said I couldn't take it anymore because when you're a cop, everybody's fucking lying to you all day long. I said, that's what it's like being a talk show host. Everybody's fucking lying to you.

[B]

But it explains the appetite for cold case crime fiction, the fact that crimes. And, you know, Richard Price wrote a wonderful book. I think it's called the Whites, which are. Which are the ones that stay with you. The cases that stay with you that you didn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Haunt you.

[A]

Yeah. James Elroy wrote a lot about those. Yeah. Because, of course, his mother was murdered and they never caught the killer.

[B]

And that's kind of. So, in a sense, crime fiction sometimes provides the kind of salve for that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The cases, you know, is proven. Yeah, but it is. I mean, I. I quite like the. The. The series of books where, like with Michael Connolly, where there might be a killer who goes through several books.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Again, Michael Connelly put me in one.

[B]

Of his books, I think. Yeah.

[A]

Just. Just, you know, if you. If you're looking for some ideas.

[B]

I don't know if that makes me feel slightly differently about him now.

[A]

No, no, you. You should feel. Yeah, you should feel different. You should think. Michael's a man of great. You know, not only is he a great writer, but he's a good friend.

[B]

You know, Craig's.

[A]

He's actually, you know, we know each other in passing. I guess if he knew me well enough, he'd be like, I'm not putting that twine. All right, well, look off and. And say hi to Rachel and good luck with the booth of America. They're going to do very well. I'm sure they will. All right. All right, we're done. Sa.