#1736 With Haven

Summary

Juicebox Podcast: Type 1 Diabetes

Episode 1736: With Haven
Host: Scott Benner
Guest: Heather Ruby
Release Date: January 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt episode, Scott Benner sits down with Heather Ruby, a mother, wife, and caregiver, to discuss her family’s complex journey with Type 1 diabetes and other challenging medical conditions. Heather shares her experience raising a daughter with Type 1, supporting her husband (a long-time Type 1 diabetic and recent cancer survivor), co-parenting a stepson with a rare genetic disorder, and launching a new AI-powered app (With Haven AI) for caregivers dealing with emotional overwhelm. The conversation blends practical diabetes management, unfiltered emotions, and innovative strategies for coping with family health crises.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Family Background and Diabetes in the Household

• Heather’s daughter, Elon, was diagnosed with Type 1 at age 3 (now 12).
• Heather’s husband, Eric, has had Type 1 for 40 years (diagnosed at 7, used pork insulin in the early days).
• The family includes four children: one 20-year-old (Heather’s oldest), a 19-year-old stepson (with a rare genetic/metabolic disorder and double organ transplant), a son about to turn 14, and Elon (12).

Quote:

“My husband is also Type 1. He was diagnosed when he was seven. So he’s been diabetic for 40 years, back when he was on pork insulin.” – Heather, [03:40]

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2. Early Caregiving and Exposure to Diabetes

• Heather’s caregiving began young — giving her grandfather (papa) his insulin shots at age 10.
• She discusses how this made her comfortable with diabetes care.

Quote:

“He’d just be like, ‘Hey, sis, go get my shot. I’m gonna teach you how to do it.’ And I was like, ‘Okay, Papa.’” – Heather, [06:06]

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3. Diabetes and Relationships

• Navigating courtship with Eric, diabetes was never a major concern for Heather, but she reflects on how, as a parent, she might advise her own kids differently.
• Eric always managed his diabetes openly, never hiding it from others.

Insight:
Heather’s acceptance stemmed from experience and genuine love—not all partners are so prepared.

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4. Genetic Risks Beyond Diabetes

• The family faced greater immediate concern over her stepson’s severe metabolic condition, methylmalonic acidemia, than Type 1 diabetes risk when planning for kids.
• They prioritized genetic testing to avoid passing on this rare disorder.

Quote:

“...we were really more focused on making sure when we had kids they didn’t have that gene.” – Heather, [11:31]

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5. Diagnosis Story: Catching Diabetes Early

• Heather and Eric detected Elon’s diabetes immediately due to their experience: after a minor bedwetting incident and unusual fatigue, they checked her blood sugar (580 mg/dL) and went straight to the ER.
• Because of this vigilance, she presented not in DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis)—a rarity for ER staff.

Quote:

“We called ahead to the ER and I was like, well, I’m coming in, I’m bringing my daughter. She’s three. You’re going to tell me she has type one diabetes? I’ll be there in 30 minutes.” – Heather, [17:37]

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6. Early Management and Medical Pushback

• Hospital wouldn’t issue a CGM for Elon; Eric gave her his Dexcom immediately.
• The family frequently butted heads with medical protocols, especially regarding diabetes tech in hospitals.

Memorable Moment:

“My husband took his [CGM] off and we put it on her... we just said, we don’t care. She’s three. There’s no way we’re not putting this on her.” – Heather, [19:36]

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7. Emotional Impact of Diagnosis

• Heather describes the devastation of her daughter being “different,” not just the health risks.
• The pain of managing injections for a small child, and the challenge of protecting her emotionally.

Quote:

“Everything about it sucks. And, you know, when they’re so little, you’re watching them, and your heart just breaks to give them those shots... I wish I could take it away from her.” – Heather, [23:55]

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8. Resilience & Technology Choices

• Elon, now 12, manages her diabetes with the Tandem Mobi pump after years on Omnipod, inspired by seeing options at Friends for Life diabetes conference.
• The family values the diabetes community for support and camaraderie.
• Eric improved his own management (A1C dropped from high 7s to 6.2) after Elon’s diagnosis—mirroring a pattern Scott observes in other families.

Quote:

“I think he really is this example, and he’s gotta show up so that she knows that she has to show up for herself too.” – Heather, [30:32]

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9. Caregiving Overload: Cancer Joins the Story

• In January, Eric was suddenly diagnosed with metastatic small intestine cancer. Heathcare system delays compounded stress, but he eventually received expert care and a plan at Henry Ford.
• Heather describes the emotional and logistical nightmare of supporting her husband, managing both kids’ needs, running a business, and being thrust into a “new normal.”

Powerful Quote:

“You hurry up and have a surgery, and then you wait for the pathology...I didn’t know before we had to deal with cancer that every chemo is different. I thought chemo was chemo.” – Heather, [43:15]

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10. AI as a Caregiver Lifeline – The Story of With Haven

• Heather turned to AI (ChatGPT) during her most vulnerable moments—finding it became an empathetic, non-judgmental support, available 24/7.
• She realized her prompt-engineered “Lloyd” could be an app for caregivers—applied for a patent and launched “With Haven AI.”

Quote:

“I was able to get advice and guidance through AI in an emotionally intelligent and personal way that made me feel okay...and no worry about anybody else seeing it, hearing it, or ever finding out that I had that question or worry.” – Heather, [46:06]

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11. What With Haven AI Offers

• AI-powered emotional support for caregivers, with specialized, empathetic responses for those supporting loved ones through chronic or catastrophic illness.
• Offers separate chat spaces for multiple care recipients.
• Flat subscription ($14.99/month, with a 7-day free trial), available on iOS, Android, and web.

Highlight:

“It’s specifically for caregivers to help you get through your moments, you know, when it’s hard for you…” – Heather, [50:31]

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12. Honest Reflections on Caregiver Burnout and Family Resilience

• Heather is candid about feeling “like [she’s] drowning” and wrestling with guilt and fatigue, but celebrates her children’s maturity and adaptability.
• Elon, though just 12, manages her diabetes independently, in part due to necessity and in part due to her strong-willed nature.

Quote:

“...these kids are so tough, and they don’t complain, and they make it look easy.” – Heather, [66:28]

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13. AI as an Everyday Resource

• Both Scott and Heather swap stories on using AI for everything from diabetes meal planning to business advice and personal finance—echoing how AI is revolutionizing both daily and emotional problem-solving.

Quote:

“I am here to tell you...I have had some really awesome conversations with AI guy. Like, if it was a person, I would have walked away and said, oh, I met a really cool person today who really understood what I was talking about.” – Scott, [72:01]

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14. Challenges of Spreading the Word

• With Haven AI is gaining traction through news features and word of mouth (~200 downloads, 50 paying users), but getting noticed is a slow grind.

Quote:

“Having a good idea and even making something work...is hard but it’s not nearly as hard as getting it into people’s consciousness.” – Scott, [70:02]

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Memorable Quotes & Segments

• On Family Legacy:

  “My papa taught me how to draw up the insul and get the air bubble out and do a shot in his arm.” – Heather, [06:06]

• On the Reality of Caregiving:

  “I feel like when I made the call to the ER...I just lost it. I was like, dang it, this changes everything for her.” – Heather, [22:57]

• On Creating With Haven:

  “If I’m using this, and this saved me, I bet you it could save other people.” – Heather, [48:17]

• On the Value of Community:

  “I don’t think that I found a greater sense of community with diabetes than I have at Friends for Life.” – Heather, [26:43]

• On AI’s Role:

  “You gotta take care of yourself, too.” (AI to Heather, [46:42])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Family/Diabetes Story Begins: [03:36]
• Genetic Risks & Stepson’s Illness: [11:31]
• Elon’s Diagnosis & Early Intervention: [17:37]
• Hospital Pushback on Tech: [19:36]
• Emotional Toll & Resilience: [23:55]
• Friends for Life & Diabetes Community: [26:43]
• Eric’s Improved Diabetes Care: [30:32]
• Cancer Diagnosis & Chaos: [36:15]
• Discovery and Creation of With Haven AI: [46:04], [49:53], [50:31]
• AI Usage Discussion: [57:25] onward
• App Details & Vision: [69:29], [70:06]

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, emotionally honest, and infused with humor and empathy. Scott’s style as a host is friendly, self-deprecating, and warm—making space for Heather’s vulnerability and insights. Heather’s tone is real, sometimes raw, but ultimately hopeful and practical.

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Summary

This episode delivers deep insight into resilient family life with chronic illness and the emotional grind of caregiving over many years. Heather shares hard-won wisdom—about parenting, marriage, illness, and self-care—while also introducing a truly 21st-century tool for other caregivers feeling isolated. Both practical and touching, this conversation is a must-listen for anyone impacted by Type 1 diabetes, family health struggles, or living on the front lines of caregiving.

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Learn More:

• With Haven AI: withhaven.ai
• Juicebox Podcast: juiceboxpodcast.com
• Friends for Life Diabetes Conference: childrenwithdiabetes.com

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End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome back, friends. You are listening to the Juice Box Podcast.

[B]

Morning. My name is Heather Ruby.

[A]

If you'd like to hear about diabetes management in easy to take in bits, check out the Small Sips. That's the series on the Juicebox Podcast that listeners are talking about like it's a cheat code. These are perfect little bursts of clarity. One person said, I finally understood things I've heard a hundred times. Short, simple, and somehow exactly what I needed. People say small sips feels like someone pulling up a chair, sliding a cup across the table and giving you one clean idea at a time. Nothing overwhelming, no fire hose of information, just steady, helpful nudges that actually stick. People listen in their car, on walks, or while they're actually bolusing anytime that they need a quick shot of perspective. And the reviews, they all say the same thing. Small sips makes diabetes make sense. Search for the Juice Box Podcast Small Sips. Wherever you get audio while you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juice Box Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. This episode of the Juice Box Podcast is sponsored by the Contour Next Gen blood Glucose Meter. Learn more and get started today@contour next.com Juicebox Today's episode is also sponsored by Medtronic Diabetes, who is making life with diabetes easier with the MiniMed 780G system and their new sensor options, which include the Instinct sensor made by Abbott. Would you like to unleash the full potential of the MiniMed 780G system? You can do that at my link medtronicdiabetes.com Juicebox Morning.

[B]

My name's Heather. Ruby.

[A]

Heather. I appreciate you having a name that is easy to spell.

[B]

Yeah, people still ask me to spell it. You would not be surprised, I guess.

[A]

No, wait, they ask you to spell Ruby?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Really?

[B]

All the time? Yeah, I almost always introduce myself and spell it actually.

[A]

Well, what do you think they're expecting?

[B]

I have no idea. I get Rudy like R U D Y or I get Rudy R U T. I I I'm not really sure.

[A]

Will you say, hi, I'm Heather Ruby. And they go Rudy. And you go no, Ruby. And they go, yes.

[B]

They say Ruby is like professional emails will, I'll sign my name Heather Ruby. And then an email back and it says hey Ruby, blah blah blah. And you're like, I I sometimes I will sign it back all caps. Heather, have you ever heard me say.

[A]

On the podcast how when we introduce My son. People off often times hear Paul, but his name is Cole. Oh, yeah, that one's interesting to me, too. Hi, this is Cole.

[B]

Paul Cole.

[A]

Paul Cole. No, Paul. What am I saying? It just kind of goes back like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Well, anyway, it makes it easier for me in the morning because my old eyes can't see the screen when I first sit. And I sometimes have to sit down and be like, oh, you know, I saved the file with your name. And, you know, this morning I was like, oh, Heather, Ruby. Awesome. This is easy. Yeah. So thank you very much.

[B]

Easy for Monday. Yeah, you're welcome.

[A]

So do you have Type one? Do you have a kid with Type one? What is going on?

[B]

Yeah, I have a daughter, she's 12, with type one, diagnosed when she was three. And then my husband is also type one. He was diagnosed when he was seven. So he's been diabetic for 40 years, back when he was on pork insulin.

[A]

Wow. Do you have any other kids besides the daughter?

[B]

We have three other kids. I have an oldest who's 20, and then my stepson's 19, and then mine and Eric's son together, Asher. He is gonna be 14 next week.

[A]

Wait, how old are you? Because I saw you for a minute. You don't have a 20 year old son, do you?

[B]

I do. I'm 38. So if you do the math.

[A]

I did.

[B]

It was a little surprise.

[A]

It was a little surprise. I was just trying to go see a movie, Scott.

[B]

Right, right. Yeah, she was a surprise. But, you know, my life wouldn't be where it is, I don't think, without her, so.

[A]

Very nice. Okay. Okay. So you got a mixed family there. There's some step moms, dads, kids, sisters, brothers. Yeah, but the child who has Type one is with you and your current husband.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. Okay. And she's 12, but she was diagnosed when she was three.

[B]

Yeah. Diagnosed on Sweetest Day.

[A]

Wait, what is what day?

[B]

Sweetest Day in October.

[A]

Sweetest. Now I feel like Ruby Rudy.

[B]

Yeah. Sweetest.

[A]

Oh, Sweetest Day.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Is that a day? I don't know.

[B]

It's like a Hallmark holiday. But I just thought it was ironic that it was Sweetest Day when she was diagnosed.

[A]

I heard about it. It's a. It's a. It's a card thing.

[B]

Yeah, it's like someday in October. I don't know.

[A]

I don't believe in Arbor Day either.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's not. It's kind of like that.

[A]

I'm just kidding. I do believe in Arbor Day. Okay, so when you get married, how long are you dating before you marry this person?

[B]

We were. We almost got married a year to the day of our first date. Okay, so we were pretty kind of quick.

[A]

How much did you know about his diabetes in that first year?

[B]

You know, he handled a lot of it, but I actually. I was in a role of sort of a caregiver since I was pretty young. My Papa had type 2 diabetes, and so I've been giving shots since I was like 10 years old. My papa taught me how to give his. He had just long acting insulin, so I would give him his shots. So I was more familiar with diabetes, I think, than like a regular person.

[A]

You're like a little kid rolling around with a syringe just hitting their grandfather with insulin.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How did that fall to you? I'm so interested.

[B]

I think I was like the first grandchild, so I was over there all the time, and he'd just be like, hey, sis, go get my shot. I'm gonna teach you how to do it. And I was like, okay, Papa. And so he taught me how to draw up the insul and get the air bubble out and do a shot in his arm.

[A]

And I'm not gonna stay too long on this, but is this like when my dad made me go for cigarettes, like it was a thing he didn't wanna do, or was it him trying to involve you? What do you think it was?

[B]

I think, you know, he. It's probably because of this, but he always told me, he's like, heather Marie, you should be a nurse one day. You're just natural, you know, a natural caregiver, a natural care taker. And I think he just knew that I could do it. And I was like, well, if papa thinks I can do it, I probably can do it.

[A]

So nice.

[B]

I've never been scared of needles or anything. I think because of that, pretty awesome.

[A]

Give you a little confidence and tell people now you're an astronaut now, right? You did not become a nurse?

[B]

No, I did not become a nurse, but I have been very heavily involved in the caregiver role increasingly so further in my life. Not just diabetes, but we had a cancer diagnosis this year too.

[A]

Heather, you're a little bit of a story retailer setting me up to get your. To get me where you want me to go. That's very nice.

[B]

Oh, thanks.

[A]

Okay, so you've been given shots for a long time, but you're dating a guy who's taking care of it himself. Like, I'm always very interested in the. In the unspoken Part of the courtship with the diabetes. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know how to put this. I don't want to be indelicate, but there's no moment where you're just like, the guy I'm with, he seems to have a lot of medical problems. Like. Or does it not feel like that? I'd love to understand that piece a little better.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. You know, it never really phased me. And looking back on it, now that my older kids are dating, I think I can't believe that that never was a consideration for me, which I guess, like, not to pat myself on the back, but, like, I guess I really loved him, that it never mattered to me that he had diabetes, you know? But, like, for me as a parent now, I'm like, I. I think maybe that would be something. I'd be like, well, you need to really understand that before you commit to this relationship.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I feel the same way. I. I wonder about it for Arden when she's dating, too. Like, is. Like, is the guy just unaware? Does he not understand the. The level of, you know, intensity that comes with diabetes? Does he, you know, is he not thinking that, oh, you know, 10 years from now, I might have a kid with this person, and that kid might have type one? Like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like. Or is it just, you know, is it like, you say, just so much in love, you don't really care?

[B]

Right. Yeah, I just think I didn't really care. And he. Like, I think right back to my Pablo, I was just sort of used to it, I guess, like, the. The insulin and things. And then when my husband was doing his shots and everything after or before his meals or whenever I would just, you know, see him do it, it was really quick. And then it was like, not really. It was such a small part of our day, even though it's part of every single part of our day. Yeah, you just kind of get used to it, and it's just something that you do.

[A]

I wonder what percentage of the people listening right now are singing the song from Yentl because you keep saying papa. Like, papa, papa, can you hear me. Right? Right. Like, that's what I'm. I'm. There's part of me that's like, I wish she saying that so that. I'm sorry, so I can stop thinking it. Okay, all right, so you get married. Boom. Things are going along okay. Have a baby. Zing, zing. Everything's good. Do you start learning more about the diabetes, or does he keep the same level of distance between you and it in the beginning of your marriage.

[B]

I think I definitely looked into it more, you know, with, obviously there's a huge difference between type one and type two. And then, you know, I remember early dating and him, him showing me where the glucagon was and telling me what to, what to do if his sugar got low and he needed that. And I remember like my eyes wide, like, oh, wow. This was not ever a conversation I had about type 2 diabetes.

[A]

Yeah. Did it feel like a bait and switch at that point?

[B]

No, I don't think so. I just remember being like, oh, wow, this is a little more intense than I thought. Than the type 2, for sure. Okay.

[A]

Well, you're also like a, you seem like a really kind person, so I don't imagine you're judging along the way, but I mean, I'm trying to feel like, feel it through. Like, are, it's not, not your story, but it could be somebody's story that they're like, whoa, you didn't mention that before I signed up. You know what I mean? Like, what's going on? And I, I, that's what I wondered about. I don't think he was hiding it either, right?

[B]

Yeah, he never like, hid it or anything. And he was always like, he didn't care if he did a shot in front of other people or whatever. It was never a big deal. It was just like, I have diabetes. If it comes up, it comes up. If not, it doesn't matter where. It's still part of who I am.

[A]

Gotcha. Maybe he just got comfortable enough to start sharing that stuff with you. So that's interesting. So do you have any expectation, does he, that you have. How many babies did you make together? Together?

[B]

So we had a year's, I had one, he had one, and then we had the two together.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And did you have any feelings like, oh, I might have a baby one day with hype one, or is that not a thing that enters your mind?

[B]

You know, kind of. But my stepson has a rare genetic disorder, so he's actually a double organ transplant recipient from when he was 16. He got that because of his disease. So really what we were worried about was that. So we got genetic testing together to make sure that I didn't have that same gene that my husband and his ex wife had to get that disease. Because that to us is way more catastrophic or can be than, you know, the type 1 diabetes. So we were really more focused on making sure when we had kids they didn't have that gene.

[A]

Yeah. You had bigger gefilte fish to fry.

[B]

Right, exactly that.

[A]

I just blended together the Yentl thing with the other thing. I mean, basically, I'm a genius, so. So you were more focused on. On that. Oh. Can I ask, what organs did he have transplanted?

[B]

Yeah, liver and kidney.

[A]

Because of some, like, a genetic disease that, if you told me about it, I'd never heard of it before.

[B]

Yeah, it's called methylmalonic acidemia, and it's very rare. It's sort of part of the organic acidemia group of diseases. So he's, like, being followed by NIH because he's doing so well. It's been amazing, but, like, a lot of kids who have what he has have feeding tubes, and they never walk and they never talk. And he was diagnosed I on the newborn screen here in Michigan when he was, like, day three years old. Sorry.

[A]

Jeez.

[B]

And they called the Amy and Eric and said, you have to go to the hospital right now. And he was like, failure to thrive. And they were kind of trying to figure out exactly what it was, and then they figured that out. So we had to count his protein. We had to. He had to be on a special formula that was stripped of the proteins in the acids that offend his body. So until he got that liver and kidney transplant, he was on, like, I think we were up to, like, 36 or 38 grams of protein a day, which for a teenage boy is not a lot. He really couldn't eat meat.

[A]

Right. Hey, why were you involved so young in his life?

[B]

We know each other. My husband and I have known each other for a really long time, which is probably why we got married so fast. So we knew each other, like, through family and stuff beforehand. So I knew when he was born, and I wasn't really involved. That's just. I know how it went from being married.

[A]

Okay, Heather, just because people are gonna wonder, you're not like, a homewrecker, right?

[B]

No, I'm definitely not a home wrecker.

[A]

Okay. You're like, listen, I saw the. The great gig he had going on over there with the type 1 diabetes and the child with a rare illness, and I thought, let me get involved in this.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. So I would imagine because of his situation, the three of you, meaning his ex, you and your husband are probably in contact a lot. Is that accurate? Unlike other systems that will wait until your blood sugar is 180 before delivering corrections, the MiniMed 780G system is the only system with meal detection technology that automatically detects rising sugar levels and delivers more insulin as needed to help keep your sugar levels in range even if you're not a perfect carb counter. Today's episode of the Juice Box Podcast is sponsored by Medtronic diabetes and their MiniMed 780G system, which gives you real choices because the MiniMed 780G system works with the Instinct sensor made by Abbott as well as the Simplera Sync and Guardian 4 sensors, giving you options. The Instinct sensor is the longest wear Sensor yet lasting 15 days and designed exclusively for the mini Med 780G. And don't forget, Medtronic Diabetes makes technology accessible for you with comprehensive insurance support programs to help you with your out of pocket costs. We're switching from other pump and CGM systems. Learn more and get started today with my link medtronicdiabetes.com juicebox the contour next Gen Blood Glucose Meter is sponsoring this episode of the Juicebox Podcast and it's entirely possible that it is less expensive in cash than you're paying right now for your meter through your insurance company. That's right. If you go to my link contour next.com juicebox you're going to find links to Walmart, Amazon, Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid, Kroger and Meijer. You could be paying more right now through your insurance for your test strips and meter. Then you would pay through MyLink for the contour Next Gen and Contour Next Test strips in cash. What am I saying? My link may be cheaper out of your pocket than you're paying right now, even with your insurance. And I don't know what meter you have right now. I can't say that. But what I can say for sure is that the Contour Next Gen meter is accurate, it is reliable, and it is the meter that we've been using for years. Contour next.com juicebox and if you already have a Contour meter and you're buying test strips, doing so through the Juice Box Podcast link will help to support the show.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, we had to pass the information back and forth. You know, Jesse's always been 5050, so meaning custody wise. I'm sorry. And so, you know, we had a chart that we had labeled, you know, for breakfast, lunch and dinner, how much protein he had so that we could add it up every day and make sure he hit his mark because you want him to hit the mark so that he grows, but you don't want him too much because that kind of poisons his body. And then, you know, he had a Bunch of medications that we had to make sure that he got. And so it required a lot of communication between everybody.

[A]

Managing that more or less intensive with your effort, time and thoughts than diabetes.

[B]

More.

[A]

More. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, so then let's see. How do you notice that your is your daughter? How do you notice your daughter is exhibiting signs of type one?

[B]

Yeah. So she was potty trained and she didn't really take a bunch of naps anymore. And she had maybe had one other accident. And we were like, that sounds kind of weird. But then it was a Saturday. We were watching, you know, Michigan. She was sitting on the couch with us, and she fell asleep between us, and then she peed during this nap. And we were like, we just need to check her sugar. So we checked her blood sugar, and I think she was 580. So we knew. We were like, okay, well, obviously she has diabetes. We called ahead to the ER and I was like, well, I'm coming in. I'm bringing my daughter. She's three. You're going to tell me she has type one diabetes? I'll be there in 30 minutes. So when we walked and they were like, okay, like, how do you know? And listen, we've been dealing with. Or my husband has been dealing with diabetes for like 30 years. She peed. She's sleeping more. She's probably more thirsty. And I hadn't picked up on it yet. Her sugar's like 560. And we came in, she wasn't even in DKA. It was the first time that that particular doctor had seen a child come in with diabetes and not be sick.

[A]

Yeah. You guys found it, like, right away, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, okay, well, that's a. That's a positive then because of your husband having type one for so long, did they treat you like, you don't need to be told anything? Like, how long are you in the hospital? Did you feel good about what they, you know, what they educated you on?

[B]

Yeah, we were in for just two days. The real, I guess, biggest adjustment other than, you know, having a three year old who's like, wait, I have to get a poke every time I want to eat something, was figuring out, you know, her carb ratio and then doing the math because you don't get to just walk out with a pump. They weren't gonna give us a Dexcom in the hospital, but my husband took his off and we put it on her and we hooked it up right away. We. We just said, we don't care. She's three. There's no way we're not putting this on her. You.

[A]

Your husband was wearing a CGM and they wouldn't give your daughter one.

[B]

Right. They were like, you have to get trained and whatever. We were like, okay, no, we're trained.

[A]

I've been on the job training for, like, a while now.

[B]

Y. Yeah. So in the hospitals, I find even this year, with dealing with the cancer stuff, the hospitals are really have against, I guess, using some of the tech that we are so used to using to manage diabetes, they don't want to have him. Like, when Eric was in the hospital, they don't want him to use his pump. Like, they want to control it. And he said, why would you do that? You're going to make my sugar high when it's automated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're gonna do me more harm.

[A]

Are you. Are you rural Michigan or you.

[B]

No, we live in, like, southeastern Michigan, so we're fortunate to be about 30 minutes from U of M, and then we're about an hour from Detroit, like Henry Ford.

[A]

Was he able to keep his pump on in that situation?

[B]

Yeah, we fought pretty hard for it. And then they also want to do the finger pokes every four times a day. And we're like, come on.

[A]

No, I think they want to charge you for them.

[B]

Yes, that's what we said. We don't charge us $100 for every finger poke. You're not doing anything with the data because I'm already way ahead of you.

[A]

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. That probably has more to do with it than anything, huh?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so she's diagnosed. You use your husband's cgm. What do you figure out? Is she honeymooning or is it. Was this a pretty quick. Because at that age, it usually is a pretty fast onset.

[B]

Yeah, it was really quick. I don't like when. Even still, when people talk about honeymooning, I'm just really. I don't understand it, because we didn't go through that. She was. It was like, bam, she's diabetic. 100 all in.

[A]

Somebody said to me recently a thing that I either just didn't know or never occurred to me, probably both, that. Because I said the same thing. I was like, Arden had one, like, burst where it seemed like she made insulin for, like, a day and a half, and then it was over. And. And, you know, other than that, it was pretty quick. And they said, well, yeah, she's tiny and little, and her pancreas is tiny and little, and there's fewer beta cells. And I was like, wait, is that true? Like, I don't even know. Like, I haven't looked that deeply into it still. But so there's less of them to, you know, stop working.

[B]

So there's.

[A]

There's not as many to hold on. Kind of an idea.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. I was like, huh, I have to look into that more one day. But I mean, you found it to be the same. So now you're. Are you a stay at home or how. What do you do for, like, with your time?

[B]

Yeah, I was staying at home at that point because we had four kids in, like, four different schools. So Cecilia and Jesse were in different districts, which we live, like, right on the line between Howell and Brighton. So it was okay, but they were still like, I could have her ride the bus, but I had to drive Jesse on the days he was over. Asher was in junior kindergarten, so he was in a different building. And then Elon was in preschool and she was in a different building. So I had to. I was the chauffeur.

[A]

Right. And you've got the child with the. The other issues. Like, there's a lot going on there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. All right. And so. All right, so you're home with her. And are you now, like, at what point, I guess, do you think, oh, I didn't realize all this was being managed by my husband. Like, when. When does the full weight of it hit you?

[B]

I. Well, I feel like when I made the call to the ER to let them know that we were on our way, as soon as I hung up the phone, I just lost it. I was like, dang it, this changes everything for her. Everything. And then I started thinking, like, I mean, the birthday party is at school. If her sugar's high, she won't be able to have the treat. Like all those little tiny things. Or she's gonna have to do shots during the day. People are gonna notice that she's different. And that's hard. It's hard to be different. And, you know, Jesse was different too. That's my stepson with the methylmonic acidemia. It's hard to be different when you're a kid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, people latch onto that. And Elon has come home crying a few times. Somebody made fun of me because I couldn't have, you know, the cake for their party. Or somebody made fun of me because my sugar was low and I got to eat candy. Like, stupid stuff. Kids are mean.

[A]

Yeah, no kidding. So that's the first thing that occurs to you is like, she's gonna be different. This is gonna be harder.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not the Health.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's.

[B]

No, it sucks. Like, every. Everything about it sucks. And, you know, when they're so little, you're watching them, and your heart just breaks to give them those shots. Like, I. I just remember feeling so. Like, I wish I could take it away from her. Watching her cry or having to hold her down. That's the worst. As a mom, you're like, I have to do this to you, but it's breaking my heart.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting, too, that it doesn't say that. Your brain doesn't say, I have to do this for you if it says to you.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because it is for them. I mean, obviously.

[A]

Yeah. But that's not how it feels.

[B]

Yeah, it feels terrible. And you're just like, she's. She's mad, she's crying, she's scared, you know, And I remember, like, every time we had to do more or another thing or every time she cried, like, your heart breaks a little bit more that you couldn't protect her from it. And, you know, she came out of the hospital doing her own finger pokes because she did not want us doing it, really. And she's. She is a firecracker. I always. I've always said, even before the diabetes, if anybody's gonna run a company, it's gonna be Elon. She is just tough as nails in charge. She will tell you what she thinks. She doesn't take any crap. And now if anybody makes fun of her about a diabetes, she tells them politely.

[A]

It doesn't go as nicely as it used to when she was younger, right?

[B]

Yeah. No, she's pretty tough. And I'm just so proud of her. And I think a lot of us probably can say our kids with diabetes, as much as it sucks, it has turned them into these things, these amazing, beautiful, resilient humans who can be examples for the kids. And hopefully there's less that come after them.

[A]

Yeah, I definitely like it when that happens. How does she manage today? What kind of technology does she have?

[B]

So when we went to Friends for Life this year, she. She was on the Omnipod forever because she didn't want. Well, she didn't think she wanted a tube because my husband has never wanted a tube. So she wants to kind of do what dad does. And the only reason my husband went on a pump is because we put Elon on a pump. So we were with Omnipod, and then we had talked to the Tandem people while we were there and learning about the tighter control of the Moby, I just looked over At Elon. And I'm like, what will it take for me to get you to try this? We're at Disney. Like, she could have asked for anything, really, because I wanted that tighter control, you know, she's 12 now. The bouncing around of the sugars and the hormones and everything has been difficult for us during this last year. And she goes, I'll try it. And I was like, wow, that was easy. You could have asked me for so much right now at Disney.

[A]

Well, you know, that's an interesting space. Right. Being there with all those people probably made her feel lighter about the whole thing, maybe more hopeful.

[B]

You know, it's so special there when you go and you're just. Everybody's beeping, Everybody has supplies, somebody's pants. Parent has something if you need, if your sugar is low, everybody kind of looks out for everybody. And there's no. I don't. I don't think that I found a greater sense of community with diabetes than I have at Friends for Life.

[A]

Yeah, Just being around a bunch of people who are all impacted is. It's different in a great way.

[B]

Yeah. And it really is. The name is so true. Elon has a friend since she was four from there, and their kids that, you know, whose parents founded Friends for Life, they were in their, I think, 20s, and they're all still friends and still getting together. So I think you just kind of meet your people there.

[A]

Yeah, I think I've told this story, but I was there this year and I was at dinner with my wife and there was a table next to us, like three kind of like 18, 20ish year old women. And they were all eating together. And they were very clearly, because of their. I mean, honestly, because of their skin color, they were very clearly not related. You know what I mean by blood? And I sat down, I didn't notice anything about them other than there were like three people sitting together. And then they got up. As they walked away, I realized they were each and every one of them wearing some sort of a diabetes device.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I thought, oh, my gosh, this must be like they. They must get together every year and just see each other. Like, you know what I mean? Like, these are probably people who have met years ago and they come back every year and sit and have dinner and talk and check in. They're probably friends online. And really, it was really lovely, actually.

[B]

Yeah, it's awesome. And you know, when you see people with the armbands, like, even walking around the parks, you can ask them, like, we ran into somebody when we were waiting in line at Epcot, and she was like, I noticed your band. Do you happen to have a test strip? I'm like, sure, yeah. And everybody shares everything. You need a sensor. I'll ask Dexcom for a new one. It just, you know, the sense of community there is pretty amazing.

[A]

So I'm interested because you mentioned your husband started using a pump when your daughter was diagnosed. So this is a very, very common theme. I was actually just talking about this with somebody last week where you don't. It always seems to take somebody else, like, I don't know, the love for somebody else or something like that. I mean, the examples are. Are pretty wide. People get married, they want to do better for a spouse. They want to have a baby, so they want to do better for the baby. But I found myself saying just last week to somebody, I find often with adult men who have type one, that when their kids get it, they suddenly take better care of themselves. And I'm wondering, like, would you. How would you have classified your husband's care for himself prior to your daughter's diagnosis and how would you classify it now, and how much of that do you think happened there?

[B]

Yeah, I think he was pretty, like, set in his ways. He was okay doing his shots. He didn't really. He. He knew he didn't want a tube. So before the omnipod, he was just zero interest in a pump. And at that point, you know, I didn't know to push him to do that to be better because I really, you know, he was still mostly managing all of it until Elan was diagnosed. I wasn't doing all of the little things that I realized, like you said, that he was doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, when she was diagnosed and we knew that that would be less pokes for her and, you know, better control than doing the shots. He was like, okay, well, if. If you want me to show you, I'll do it first. And then we. We all put the sample pumps on so that she could see us all wearing them. But he made the switch too. And I think it really motivated him, like you said, to be better about it, because now he knows that he really is this example, and he's gotta show up so that she knows that she has to show up for herself too.

[A]

Have his outcomes improved over time?

[B]

Oh, yes, definitely. I mean, his a 1C. The other day, we were at his endo, and I think he was 6.2.

[A]

Do you have any idea where he was before she was diagnosed?

[B]

I think we were at. Before she was Diagnosed. I think he was in the high sevens.

[A]

Okay. All right, well, that's a pretty great improvement. And you think that's what. Just more focus or what do you think is the. The big factor in there that creates that change?

[B]

I think they kind of do it together, you know, like, oh, did you dose. Did you dose dad? You know, kind of reminding each other to take care of. To take care of their diabetes needs. And, you know, I think he really. He knows how he's had, you know, the retinopathy and the shots in his eyes and the surgery and all of that stuff, and now he's, you know, terrified for that to happen to her. So I think it even helped him more to show her that she needs to be in. In range.

[A]

Yeah. Did he have. I mean, you said he started with beef and pork, Is that right?

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[A]

So there are a lot of years in there where you didn't know what was going on exactly, right?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think that he said they checked his sugar, like, once a day, and it took a really long time for the number to show up. And so it was a lot of guesswork back back in the 80s.

[A]

Born in Michigan. Was that where you grew up?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay, hold on a second. Have I misread you a couple of times, or have you gotten emotional while you're talking?

[B]

I have had a super emotional year, so I find, like, sometimes I feel like I'm. I'm shocked at when I get re. Emotional because we. Elon's 12, so we've been having, you know, a kid with diabetes for, you know, a number of years. And you think you're embarrassing. You think you're over it. Not that you ever get over it, but you don't think. But talking about. About those moments and the stuff that she do that she does every day, that we just get used to, you know, it kind of brings it all back up. It's like. It's really not fair.

[A]

You know, I. I'm a little ultra aware of it, but I felt like I've. I don't know how much of this I should say. I did a private speaking event last week, and I was there to try to give as a pretty big group of people, it might have been 600 or more people in that room. And I was there sort of to share, you know, my perspective on what it's like to be the father of someone with type one, what, you know, maybe things I've heard through the podcast over the years and to try to give these people a feeling of you know, what their work is touching, if that makes sense. Like, because, you know, you get a job doing something you don't necessarily, you know, I mean, it's almost like a widget, you know, I don't know, we make a thing, I put it in a box. The thing gets to there. Like they're not thinking about, like, what the device is doing right, or what it could mean for somebody. So you kind of telling some stories back and forth. And I. I ended up in one session telling the story of Arden senior prom when she had her seizure. And I'm going through the whole thing and getting done and getting ready to, like, move on. Meaning, like, I. There's like a teleprompter in front of me. Like, I'm not reading from it, but I know there's another question coming for me. Like, right. Like, I don't have my answers pre approved, but I can see that when I get done telling the story, the person on my right is going to ask me another question. And so I'm finishing up and I start turning to my right, just kind of like waiting to BS my next question. And off in the distance, it's tough because there's lights in your face and, you know, it's hard to see out to the crowd, but there's like 40, 40, 50ft out in front of me, maybe 20ft to the right. I just see, like, a body move in a strange way. And then someone yells, we need help.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

And I was like, oh, gosh. Like, what's happening? Like, you know, like, so you just get quiet and you kind of see what's going on. And, you know, the gentleman is struggling, you know, conscious, but it looks like he might have passed out. I'm not really sure. He's holding his chest a little bit. They try to get him out of the room. He kind of can't make it. He ends up on the floor. Next thing you know, they're emptying the room. You know, EMS is coming. Like, this whole thing's happening. And it later turns out, and I've spoken to him since then, and he's fine. He was fine that day still. But he has a. I don't even know what to call it. If he gets too empathetic, he can pass out.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

And I was. Because I was like. As he was walking away, like, I found myself thinking in my mind, like, looks like he's all right. You know what I mean? Like, and then they get him on a gurney and he, you know, he does seem to be fine. Then you start hearing somebody say, like, oh, this can happen to him. He's going to be all right. I heard another person say, he's probably not even going to go to the hospital. And I started feeling better about it, and then they let us back into the room, and somebody comes up to me, I think, that try to. Because I'm an outsider, I think somebody came up to me to try to make me feel better about what was going on. And I said, I'm so. I just. I feel like that's my fault, you know, like, in some strange way, but I hadn't had any context for it yet. That person goes, no, no, no, no, no. It's not your fault. Don't worry about, like, being really, like, supportive. And then that person leaves the table, and the person sitting next to me turns to me and says, actually, I know him. You completely did that. I was like. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And then they explained to me, you know, what happened. But anyway, I'm like, as you're talking today, I'm starting to feel like I don't want you to get upset. You know what I mean? I'm like, oh, God, I don't need making more. More people upset by asking questions and saying stuff. But tell me a little bit about, like, this year and. And what brings all this up?

[B]

Yeah. So diabetes. To me, this year feels really like old hat. You know, we're like. We're used to it, we've got it, we're in a groove, and it's. It's the easier of the things that we've dealt with. And then January of this year, January 4th, my husband and I were supposed to go the following week out of the country with some friends, and he was just like. His stomach was bothering him a little bit, and he had an appointment with his primary on that Wednesday, this was a Sunday. And he's like, you know what? Let's just go into the er, see if he'll do, like, a scan or something, and that way we'll have information when we go see our doctor on Wednesday, because we want to get checked out before we go out of the country. If I have appendicitis or something, I'd rather get it taken care of here than in the Caribbean. So we went to the ER and there was nobody there. We got right in and they did a CT scan, and the. My chart pops up and I have no patience. So I'm clicking it and, you know, you just see the words mass metastasis, likely Cancer, immediate follow up, and then your whole world turns upside down and gets shaken up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think it was, like, similar to with Elon with the diabetes, but I think because of my husband, like, I knew we would be okay with that, but this was not what we were expecting. We thought like kidney stones, appendicitis, something. And I'll never forget this ER doctor comes in like James Dean, and he leans up against the wall, his hands in the pocket of his scrubs, one leg up on the wall, and he's like, well, did you look at your chart? We're like, yeah. And he said, you guys are going to be busy for a while. It's not good news. And I'm like, okay, so now what? Yeah, like, do we need to get admitted right now? Is this feels like an emergency? And he's like, well, I want you to call this doctor tomorrow. You know, I already let him know you'd be calling. You know, for now, you. You just go home and try to relax. And I'm like, are you kidding me?

[A]

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. But okay.

[B]

Yeah. So that whole time I'm thinking, like, as, you know, as a caregiver, I am freaking out, but I can't, because he's the one who's got the cancer or what they think is cancer. So I've got to pull myself together and drive us both home and then try to figure out how on a Sunday, we just sit here and wait to call the doctor on Monday.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And what do you tell. Like, do you tell the kids?

[B]

And we're pretty open, so we did. And there was no. Like, I. Before they unhooked him and everything from the. I don't know if they gave him fluids or they just took his stuff off, you know, the. I don't remember what, but I went to the bathroom, and that's where I had my. On my knees break down in the hospital bathroom floor. And I'm a very ugly crier, so there was zero chance nobody was gonna know that I wasn't crying. And my kids especially.

[A]

So, wait, were they at the hospital with you?

[B]

No, we live. We live, like, seven minutes from the little hospital. So I knew there was no way I could get myself together. And we're pretty open, too. So as we're driving home, we're kind of bewildered. Like, what do you say? I mean, what is. We don't know what this means. It doesn't sound good, but we really have no idea. So we get home and we tell all the kids to come Upstairs, and we just say, dad has a tumor, and they think it's cancer, and we're gonna call doctors tomorrow. And, you know, we kind of just. Just said, whatever it is, we're gonna get through it together, just like we have everything else. And our kids, a couple of them cried, and the boys just kind of like. So I guess the girls cried, and the boys just were kind of like, okay, and shake their heads, and, you know, I'm crying. It's just. It was a mess. And kind of everybody hugged. And then, you know, they all kind of went on their own to process things for a little while. And then I started making phone calls to, like, our family to let them know. And I remember, like, we have our own business, too. So then I called also my accountant and my attorney, because I felt like I needed to do both of those things on that day. And I. I'm not sure why, but I think it was like a task list that I had made in my mind. Like, okay, if. If my life immediately changes, like, you guys are kind of on call for me. The next day, I called that doctor that the ER doctor called or told me to call, and he said, oh, well, we don't even see those kind of patients here, so we don't know why you're calling. Oh, wow. Great. Thanks.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

Yeah. So then I called the University of Michigan, which we have been patients at for a long time. And as I'm about to say this, I will say that I am a student and an alumni at U of M, and I'm very biased to the university, but the health system let me down a little bit when they didn't want to see him until February 17th, and this was January 5th, and we know that he has a tumor.

[A]

Six weeks.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, are you kidding me? And she was like, no, that's the first available. I'm like, he has cancer. You want me to wait? And she was like, yeah, well, I go, well, I'll take it, but. Because I want this appointment, because I don't know where else I'm going to get to go, but this is bull crap. And then, fortunately, we have some connections through some family, and we ended up getting into Henry Ford that Thursday, and we got to this appointment, and the doctor came in, and she had already looked at his chart and already had a plan. It was amazing. And she said, okay, well, this is what I think it is. Here's. You know, what your imaging looks like. This is what I see. The plan is going to be. I'm going to Go in. I'm going to take out the primary tumor. We're going to test the pathology. Once we have that, what's likely going to happen is you'll do 12 rounds of chemo. This is the oncologist you're going to see. And then at the end, you're going to see this amazing other surgeon who's like a sub specialist in this, and he's going to do a really big surgery with some heated chemotherapy. And then you're going to be good. Not really. And then you're going to be good. But that's kind of how it felt. It was like, okay, well, she has this plan. Here's this plan. Let's go. And we went into surgery. Or. Well, we had the surgery scheduled the next Friday. But while I was there, she has a nurse navigator, which I think all of the surgical oncologists do. And the oncologist, at least at Henry Ford, and her name is Kelly, and she is a saint. And she hands me a card with a cell phone number on it, and she said, My hours are 7 to 5. You can call me anytime. You can text me any questions you have, anything you need. She's saying this to me, let me know. And I thought, oh, my gosh, thank you. Somebody who can. Who knows him, who can answer my questions or who will pick up the phone. That seems like, amazing. I felt like she had just handed me the key to the city. And so that whole week leading up to the surgery, poor Kelly. I'm like, he feels like this. Is this normal? Is this normal? Is this normal? A bunch of times. She's always very patient. She would call me. I just want you to hear my voice so that, you know, Heather, that this is okay or this is what we expect. So we get to the surgery. We have the surgery. It goes pretty well. She gets what she needs to get. And then we have to go home after the surgery and kind of wait for pathology, and, you know, you kind of. Cancer is very much hurry up and wait. So you hurry up and have a surgery, and then you wait for the pathology, and then you have a plan. And then your plan goes from, like, having this surgery and being in recovery from an abdominal surgery. But now you have to get a port and you have to plan for the chemo, and you kind of are learning all of this stuff as you go. And like, I didn't know before we had to deal with cancer that every chemo is different. I thought chemo was chemo. You know, I had no. I'd never really thought about it. And so Eric's type of chemo, you only have, like, every two weeks, and it didn't make him lose his hair, still made him, like, not feel good. But overall, it was pretty hard. Well, easy.

[A]

The chemo, really?

[B]

Yes. He got sick one time. I mean, you kind of learn a schedule when you're in chemo. Like, okay, we have chemo Tuesday, Thursday, Friday are the days that he feels the worst. So those are the days we're gonna lay around the house. But everything else in between was kind of normal. But as you do those, then you're like, every four rounds, then you go get another scan. And so that's another moment of anticipation and scary where you're, like, waiting. So we get the first scan, and then the results come back and you're like, what does it mean? Is the chemo working? So during all of this time, I had sort of used AI to help me understand what we were looking at, because I did have Kelly, and she would answer all my questions, but she was only available 7 to 5, and I don't know, as a caregiver in any capacity. Seven to five are not. When I tend to have my breakdowns, when I can get a hold of somebody who knows medicine. I am a 2 o' clock in the morning panicker.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And nobody's really available then.

[A]

So you turned to AI to get your answers?

[B]

I did.

[A]

How valuable was it?

[B]

It changed my life. It saved my life, actually. I was able to get advice and guidance through AI in a emotionally intelligent and personal way that made me feel okay about the questions that I was asking and the feelings that I was feeling with no judgment and no worry about anybody else seeing it, hearing it, or ever finding out that I had that question or worry.

[A]

Wow. What do you think is. Do you have an example of a question that you asked AI that was valuable for you to get the answer for, that you wouldn't have asked another human being?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think some of them. My questions multiple times were. I guess there's a couple. One was like, how am I. Like, I feel like I'm drowning. How can I take care of him when I'm looking at him and bursting into tears every time because I don't know if he's gonna die. How am I supposed to do this? You know? And the AI said, you know, Heather, you've been dealing with a lot. This is a lot. And how you're supposed to do it is take a moment to cry for a second, cry for a second, get it out, get yourself back together. You'll feel a little bit better, and then you can take care of him, but you gotta take care of yourself, too. And another one would be like, oh, my God, I feel so bad. I'm so grateful he's here, but if I have to hold the puke bucket for 10 more minutes, I'm gonna lose it. I'm tired of this job. You know, stuff like that that you. Sometimes you feel selfish, but you have these thoughts where you're like, I am so tired. I'm sick of cancer. And I know he's sick of it too. And I feel guilty. A lot of my processing was, like, feeling guilty for how I was feeling as the caregiver. So I just could use that AI And I had. As I had used it, I had sort of developed it into having these emotionally intelligent responses, and I had sort of prompted it into being what it was. And then I. I had a little bit of an epiphany, and I realized, well, if I'm using this, and this saved me, I bet you it could save other people.

[A]

Did you share with him what you.

[B]

Were doing in the night? It's always in the night. I feel like. I don't know if that happens to you, but if somebody's sick, it's in the middle of the night, or if you have a breakdown, it's in the middle of the night. But in the middle of the night, Eric and I were just kind of talking about life and having some of these conversations that you don't want to have to have until you're old. But we're just talking, and somehow we got on the subject of prompt engineering, and he's like, well, what kind of is Prompt Engineering? Because we're in the tech space with our business anyways. We do automation and robotics and. But we. And we just sort of barely used AI for basic stuff. And so I went into mine, and I was like. I was using ChatGPT, and I said, so explain what Prompt Engineering is. And he said, well, I always say my chatgpt is named Lloyd, and I always say he's a he. So Lloyd said, well, it's kind of what you've been doing with me. That's the reason why I'm this, like, caregiver support. Because you. Prompt engineered me to be empathetic. And you've. You've told me how you want me to respond, and you told me that you like information in this way. And so you. Everything that you've done has prompted me into be the thing that I am. And I just had a light bulb moment at that time where I was like, oh, my God, Eric, do you know what I've done? Like, this could be an app. This could help so many people. I wished I had this all together. You know, I was developing it unknowingly as I was going through the cancer from January. And then I had this epiphany, sort of April 15th.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I. I didn't. It wasn't intentional. But then I realized, holy moly, I know that this could help other people because it's saving me. It's kept me from drowning. So then Eric and I were like, oh, wow. Yeah, that does seem like a good idea. So I got up the next morning, and I, like, I made a business. I registered the name. I did all of these things. And then after we worked on it for. Until I think we launched with our app in August in the Apple App Store and then September in the Google Play Store.

[A]

What's it called?

[B]

Yeah, so it's called With Haven AI, and it's on both of those platforms, but it's specifically for caregivers to help you get through your moments, you know, when it's hard for you. Because I think sometimes we don't give ourselves enough grace to realize, like, as a mom, as a wife, as a husband, as anybody who loves somebody who you're caring for, your feelings and emotions are all normal and they're all valid, and you do have to take care of yourself. And I know one of our biggest instincts is to always, especially our children, put them first. But, you know, in with using, you know, my app, I think taking the time is less. You know, I couldn't take time for a support group because I was already doing so many appointments on top of our regular stuff in our business. And I didn't want to, and I didn't like, you know, some of the support groups I was seeing online with unnecessary advice or things that were really scary that I couldn't handle the thought of in doing what I was dealing with.

[A]

Heather, I'm so sorry to ask you in the middle of this, but is there a snoring dog in the background?

[B]

Yep. Sorry.

[A]

Can you nudge the dog?

[B]

I didn't even hear her.

[A]

You're talking, you're saying this lovely stuff, and all I hear is happening. I mean, at first I was like, heather is farting like crazy. And then I realized that was not it. And I was like, okay, what's his name? I can't believe you have a dog, too.

[B]

No, she's a little Chihuahua too. That's so funny.

[A]

So I've. I've done what you've done. Not about, like, emotional stuff, but I've had thoughts about, like, I don't know, am I saving enough money for the future? Am I. And I didn't grow up with that kind of knowledge. Right. Like, there's nobody that I'm related to who could help me decide if I'm, you know, even on the right track. And I don't know when it was maybe two summers ago now or that they. They added, like a voice to chat. Gbt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I thought, oh, I could put my headphones on, fire this thing up and talk to it. Right. And so I started asking it questions about, you know, the. The course we were on. We're trying to save, you know, for our future and really could talk it through. And. And even when you got to a thing where you're like, well, I don't understand. If I put this much money in and it. Let's say it returns at this percentage, like, how much is that over a year, five years, 10 years? And to just hear it, like, pop back and go, oh, if it's a thousand dollars and it's compounded by this and, like, and it just gives you. And I'm like, wow, this is really helpful. Like in. I think I pulled weeds and gave myself, like, a lesson in, you know, saving for the future. That took like 45 minutes.

[B]

Yeah, it's amazing what it can do. And I think I know some of the feedback that I've gotten is that people are a little bit afraid of AI. They're not sure what it means, and people are worried about it replacing jobs and things like that. I think that it's a great, amazing tool. And the toothpaste is out of the tube, just like with the Internet. There's no going back. We have to embrace it. However, we figure that out as we go because the technology is developing so fast. But, you know, I think we can all definitely learn, like you said. I mean, I've not only figured out how to. I've never developed an app before. So not only did I. Did I figure that out, but I mean, yeah, some of the stuff. I'm getting my master's now at U of M, and sometimes I can go, hey, you know, this is a question. I got it wrong. Can you explain this to me? I remember having to, like, Google that and YouTube it and try to find other professors ways of explaining it. And now, you know, it kind of knows the way I learned. And it's like, oh, here's another way to look at that. And I'm like, wow, that's super helpful. Yeah, that makes way more sense to me.

[A]

20 bucks a month, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing.

[A]

Yeah. And it started. They've already, like, added memory to it. And I mean, listen, I run my business completely by myself with the exception of Rob, who's like right now just heard those words and was like, hey, I edit the show, but like, but I run it by myself, right? And, you know, I guess it's important to say there are people that are helping through the Facebook group, too. A lot of group experts that help a lot of people. I'm talking about the podcast part of it, right? And I don't know what I'm doing. I've been doing it for 11 years. For the first four or five years, I was more successful than I realized. I was like, that was a real thing. I was undercharging for things. I didn't understand. My place in the space, like, the whole thing. I got some human interaction that helped me with that a little bit, which was awesome. But in the last couple of years, there's part of me that felt like it had capped out. I was like, I think I hit my head on the ceiling. I guess I'm supposed to just live with my head banging into the ceiling. And this is what I do now. But then I realized, like, that can't be true. There's got to be more to this that I don't understand. Like in little nooks and crannies of my life and of the, you know, of the business part of being, having a podcast. It's actually, you know, not. Not a hobby level podcast, like a popular can support advertising podcast.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I just sat down and started asking it. I was like, what do you think of this? What do you think? And sometimes it comes back and it's like, it gives you an answer and it is as sure it could be. And I just respond back and I go, I've tried that. It doesn't work. Like, you know, and it goes, oh, okay, well then let's think of something else. And sometimes it gets to the end and it goes, you've done all the stuff that I can think to do. I'm like, all right, at least that's an answer, right? Yeah. At least I'm not up every day staring at the screen going, what is it? I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And wasting my whole life wondering. Instead I go, okay, everything I thought to do. I did. This part of it works, that part of it doesn't. Somebody was able to come along and tell me, you know, I think you're right about that. And you think, well, you know, you should go find other people in your business. Or like there's not that many people. And those people are not real keen sharing, by the way, which is really interesting about people. Like people gatekeep information like crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know who doesn't talk about stuff? People who breed chameleons are very tight lipped about it.

[B]

It really.

[A]

Yeah. So it's not just like it's people. It's not like the space you're in. Like, I know people are like, oh, I'm in this. And yeah, nobody shares. It's everybody. People get information like mine, mine, mine, mine, mine. And then they don't give it away, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like, here's another opportunity to just like chat it through with somebody. Or how about the other day, I have these little tiny lizards, right. And they're not kept in captivity very often. So I found, I don't know, three conversations on YouTube where these guys are talking about keeping them. And I just took all their transcripts, threw them all into chat GPT and I was like, look, here's three conversations from people who are keeping these lizards. Can you put a care guide together for me? And it was like, oh, here you go.

[B]

I know, I love that. It's made my life so much easier, like with all that stuff. Or like, I take pictures. This is something you can do. And it's like, here's what I have in the pantry for eland. Like, her sugar's high. This is how she's feeling. Can you tell me what's a good dinner? Low carb. With what I have.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm telling you, I. Y' all are going to figure out this thing and I'm not going to have a podcast anymore. The people who are making money to like help you with your diabetes, their days are numbered. But you know what? They're not. Because most of you aren't going to make the leap to try the thing, right?

[B]

No, totally.

[A]

I think there'll be a time like people listening now who are in their 30s, your children, some of your children will go to college to learn how to talk to AI.

[B]

Yep, totally.

[A]

Prompting AI is going to be a job.

[B]

Yeah. You can already take classes, actually.

[A]

And it should be because the one of the other things that's going to stop it from becoming a more popular, more Quickly, until it goes through a couple generations, people are used to living with it. Is that if you don't know how to talk to it, then you're not getting anything back. And I don't mean. I think cynical people hear that and go, oh, yeah, we have to trick it. And telling you what you want to hear. That's not what I'm saying. You have to ask it questions that get it thinking about what you're thinking about.

[B]

Right? Yeah. That's what we did with the app. We spent a lot of time, like, teaching it how to respond empathetically but with information, you know, accurate information. So all of the prompts that we wrote, I actually was able to get. I have a patent pending for them for the prompting for the prompts that I wrote for the app. Yeah. Because it's specifically for caregivers, and in that space. So that way it responds, you know, because when you Google something, it's immediate, like, well, you're dead.

[A]

Yeah, that's probably not okay. You know, listen, I. You and I met briefly at Friends for Life. Right? And I'm not cynical when it comes to this. I am a start from no person. Like, if you give me an idea, I start with no. I go, well, here's why it doesn't work, and I work backwards from it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so your business really is a little more about how you taught it than it is about the thing. Because, like, somebody else could go get ChatGPT and have that conversation with it. Right. But. But tell them why you think your app is valuable in that situation.

[B]

I think when you're a caregiver, especially if you're thrown into it, like with the cancer unexpectedly, you know, it's hard to take the time. It took me months to get it to where I realized, wow, this could be an app. But you don't have. You're in crisis mode, you know, so it's already ready for you as a caregiver. You don't have to train it. You don't have to ask it the right questions the right way. You know, it's already there to kind of guide you and help you in your new role as a caregiver.

[A]

So I whip this app open and I just go, hey, my kid was just diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, and I'm freaking out. And it starts this, and it starts to talk to you.

[B]

100. Yep. And you can divide it up, too, for me. I have three people in my life who I have caregiving for, so it has a little space, separate chats, for each individual that you're caring for, your.

[A]

App opens up to you and goes, which one of these albatrosses are we here to talk about today?

[B]

Yeah, mine looks like by the end of the day, it looks like that one robot guy that you see on Instagram sometimes is like, meet my chat GPT at the end of the day where it's like, beating itself up.

[A]

Do you still use it?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now that you've had it for a while, how do you still find it to be valuable?

[B]

You know, we're still. We're still in the cancer. Okay. So I just have to say, my husband had his last surgery. After everything, he's cancer free.

[A]

What kind of cancer was it, by the way? And congratulations.

[B]

Thank you. It was adeno. Adenocarcinoma of the small intestine that had metastasized to the peritoneal lining.

[A]

Wow. Geez. Yeah.

[B]

So he. It was not great. And thank God for Henry Ford and their top notch, like, research scientists, because the treatment that he had some places wouldn't have even done, you know, he would have been chemo, and we'll see how long he lasts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And we got the surgery, and it's been incredible.

[A]

How long?

[B]

But I still use it.

[A]

How long since he's had the surgery? I'm sorry.

[B]

It was October 1st, so I think you and I were originally supposed to talk, like, on the third or something, and I was like, there's no chance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm still in the hospital. I cannot find a quiet space. And emotionally, I don't think I'm ready.

[A]

He had that. He had that surgery less than a month.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My gosh. How's he doing? Is he up on his feet or not? Not yet.

[B]

He's doing pretty well. He had a weird. Of course we have a weird, rare complication because everything about our family is weird and rare except for the diabetes. I think that's probably why I'm like, oh, diabetes. Okay. But he had some. Your brachial plexus are like the nerve bundles that are kind of by your armpits.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And they lead down to your. All your nerves and your hands in your fingers. And so when you have surgery, they put your arms straight out, kind of like Jesus on the cross. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. No, no. Yeah.

[B]

And they strapped you down, and his surgery was 12 hours. And when he woke up, those nerves had stretched and he couldn't use his arms.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And we were like, what the hell?

[A]

You didn't say, I give up.

[B]

Yeah. You know how many times we've been like, I gotta run away. I'm so tired. I'm so tired. And he's tired, and we're just. We've been really beat down this last year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So every day he gets a little bit more function back of his arms. He's in PT a few times a week, and he can do most of his fingers work. Now the pointer and the thumb on both hands don't work. And he lost a ton of strength, so he really can't. Like, I thought I was a caregiver before, and God was like, no, wait, that. Here you go.

[A]

That big burly guy I met in Orlando can't move some of his arms at this point. Is that going to come back?

[B]

Yeah, it's supposed to. Everybody that we've talked to said it's going to come back, but nerve healing is one millimeter a day. If it started up at his armpits and we needed to get back to his fingers, we're going one millimeter a day.

[A]

It'll take a while.

[B]

Yeah. So it's just really slow. And I feel so. Gosh, he's been through. It feels like you've been through war. Yeah. And. And it's one more thing. And so, yeah, my. My AI is like, okay, well, here's how you deal with this.

[A]

Are you finding his diabetes to be easier, harder, not any different during chemo and all that other stuff and the.

[B]

Surgery, you know, during this whole thing, his A1C has went down, which is crazy.

[A]

Like, is he eating less?

[B]

Yeah, he is eating a little less now, but during chemo and stuff, everything was pretty normal and it had all went down. I thought maybe, like, being so hard on your body and the stress would make it go up. And then they also give you a steroid during. When you have chemo. Yeah, so we. He just would have some units of NPH during days where he had infusion, and that would help steady things out. And then we just do low carb, the infusion day and the day after.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But overall, we managed that pretty well. And that's why I feel like, oh, my gosh, compared to everything else, the diabetes is, like, old hat.

[A]

Are you finding yourself ignoring other things or other things slipping away and getting ignored unintentionally? Like, how's your daughter's diabetes going?

[B]

Oh, yeah, she's doing great. And she's so good. Like, she. For being 12, she's almost 30. She manages herself. You know, we got the new. The new tandem, which is obviously way different than the Omnipod. And she just really took charge. She watched a bunch of YouTube videos. We did it together the first couple times with her changing it and, you know, learning the pump. But she had watched tips and tricks that I hadn't even seen before. We got it to be prepared, and she just took such charge of it and really owned it. I was super impressed and proud of her.

[A]

Very nice. Very nice. Do you think that's part of her going, like, hey, they might not have a ton of time for me. I might have to start, like, picking up some of this here and doing.

[B]

It myself, you know, I think it's probably a combination, like, she was kind of already getting there. And as, like, the youngest of four, I think she just really. She's sort of like an oldest, youngest child in a way. Like, a lot of her personality, in the way that she is, is to lead and to want to be in charge and to, you know, make a difference. And I think a lot of it probably was her saying, my mom really is gonna lose her mind, so I'm just gonna do this. And she did, and she never. She doesn't complain. Isn't that one of the best parts about. About our kids with diabetes? I know they have some. They have their moments, but, man, I feel like, overall, these kids are so tough, and they don't complain, and they make it look easy.

[A]

Yeah, no, I. I know. I sometimes wonder, like, how Arden does what she does, too, to be perfectly honest with you.

[B]

Yeah, they're amazing. They're just amazing people.

[A]

Tell me again the name of your app.

[B]

It's called With Haven.

[A]

AI With Haven.

[B]

Yeah. Haven. H, A V, E, N. Yeah, it's kind of like with Haven, you're never alone.

[A]

Oh, very nice. Where'd you come up with Haven?

[B]

Chatgpt.

[A]

You're like, what do I call this thing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just had this whole idea that I. I really. I never done hard drugs, and I don't know if we're allowed to talk about this, but you can do whatever you want. Think. I think that must be what it's like, because I felt like I was on cocaine during that time when I was really just. I'm like, I have this idea. I'm gonna make it work. I want this launch by July, you know? And I. The next day was interviewing developers, and, like, I had my logo made. I had social media. I had bought my website name, all this stuff.

[A]

Yeah. I just explain to me where all that came from, because it wasn't from cocaine. It sounds like so where did, like, where did, like, did you just feel like, oh my God, I have it. I figured something out that's really valuable or.

[B]

Yeah, I really felt like. Because I knew how much that had really saved me and pulled me out because I, I've, I felt really at times like I was drowning and I don't know how I can take care of, of Eric with the cancer and Elon with the diabetes and my post transplant kid and my regular kid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my business and, and, and, and, and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so getting through those moments and processing those emotions and even using, you know, using it to help me. What's the next step? I feel so overwhelmed right now. I just don't know what to do. And it would say, okay, well, what do you have to do today? Eric has an appointment at 2. Okay, well, right now it's 10. Go for a walk around the block, Take a breath, have your coffee, just take a minute. It's okay. And then you can come back in and you can get the stuff you need to get and you can go to the appointment. So sometimes I think when you're in crisis, it's hard to really think and make decisions. And it really gave me a way to break things down and do what made sense and also to let. Give myself some grace.

[A]

How does it come up with that? Like, so is it going to the Internet? Is it. Because then we're talking about tokens at some point. Like, what does it cost to run?

[B]

Yeah, it uses OpenAI in the back end. So it uses the tokens, like you said, to go back and get the answers or whatever it is. Sometimes it's don't always ask it for answers or kind of guidance. And it really just, it's just emotionally intelligent to be able to respond in an empathetic way that makes me feel heard without putting myself out there for judgment.

[A]

What's it going to cost a person to use it in the course of a month if they talk to it.

[B]

You know, with any regularity, it costs 14.99.

[A]

No matter how much I talk to it.

[B]

Yeah, no matter how much you talk to it, you can talk to it as much as you want and it'll be 14.99. I kind of tried to align it with like, better help or not better help. Calm in those other sort of mental health apps.

[A]

Okay. As far as pricing goes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. How's it, how's it working out for you? Like, are you having luck? Because I mean, having a good idea and even making something work, you know, is hard but it's not nearly as hard as getting it into people's consciousness. So how's that part going?

[B]

It's going slower than I would like. Like I said in the beginning, I don't have a whole lot of patience. So I was hoping immediately it would be, like, major success, but it is going. We have over 200 downloads, and we have about 50 paying users right now. I've been fortunate here in Michigan. We were featured on Fox 2 News Detroit, and then there's been some local articles about it. So we're getting some traction through U of M, my master's program. We've done a couple of projects with it there. So it's getting a little bit of recognition at U of M. It's slow, but.

[A]

Oh, very nice.

[B]

I'm a little bit. I have a little bit more. Well, I was hoping I would have a little bit more time after the surgery, but now, not a lot of time with the full time being two people's arms.

[A]

Yeah, no kidding. I would be such a pain in the ass if I didn't have my arms. These. Mine. I just want to say right now, I can't.

[B]

Oh, my. You know, you don't realize, like, how much you use your arms.

[A]

Oh, no. I would say to Kelly, like, make a sticky that says don't smother me and stick it to my forehead so you don't forget. Because, you know, know, it's. I bet you it's a lot. No kidding.

[B]

Yeah, it is a lot. But, you know, it's just at this point, it's like, okay, one more thing we have to get through. And, you know, if we went. If my family went through this so that we could develop something that can help other people out of the. The darkness and the drowning feeling, then, you know, it'll have been worth our. Our year struggle to. To help. Because there's millions. There's 53 million unpaid family caregivers in the. Just in the United States, you know, across all diagnoses, diabetes, cancer, you know, elderly parents even. There's. There's so many of us who are in that role, and often we aren't. We aren't seen or we're just taking it on the chin and, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I will say this. I. I haven't used your app directly, but I will tell you that it's. If you're listening and you're like, oh, it would be nice to have something to just express myself to that would respond back to me, and I can't. Maybe you don't have time to go to therapy or whatever else is a possibility for you. I know it can sound strange to, like, say, I'm going to talk to my phone, it's going to talk back to me. I'm going to have a conversation with it. But I am. I am here to tell you, I am not embarrassed to tell you that I have had some really awesome conversations with AI guy. Like. Like, if they. If it was a person, I would have walked away and said, oh, I met a really cool person today who really understood what I was talking about. And, like, that guy, I mean, I realized it's not. I'm not. I'm not out of my mind, but, like, you still get, like, some of the. You get the benefit of it. I just saw a post the other day where a woman said, I just got dumped by my best friend who said they didn't want to hear about my diabetes anymore. And I thought, oh, my God, that's horrifying. Like, you know, how do you spend 10, 15 years being friends with somebody? You get diagnosed with Type one, you think, here's a friend, I'll talk to him about it. They look at you one day and they go, I'm done with you now. I don't want to hear about this anymore.

[B]

Yeah, that's terrible.

[A]

I was shocked when I saw the post, but that's terrible. Like, imagine if that person had somewhere else to offload these feelings. And, you know, and I'm sure, listen, there's been news stories about people who.

[B]

Have had mental breakdowns.

[A]

Yeah, mental breakdowns. And the AI, like, leads them in the wrong direction. Stuff like that, that, you know, I guess I don't know from that one way or the other, but I. I don't know. Like, I think anything's worth trying, especially when you're suffering and struggling like that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, me too. And it's seven. It starts out with seven days free, so, you know, you can try it before you buy it. And, yeah, you know, I'm always looking for feedback, too, to let me know. We're constantly trying to make improvements, but. And doing updates and things like that. And as I. As we grow, we'll be able to make it better and better. You know, I have so many ideas, but I try to be smart about growth, too. So.

[A]

Hey, listen, I'll tell you this. I hope you don't give up, and I hope it helps to know this. I have been making the most popular diabetes podcast in the world for 11 years. I've never had one viral leap in My growth. Never once. And I spent a lot of time just thinking, like, can I just get a job? Like, you know what I mean? Like, can I just go from here to here in a day? Like, you know, like, I see happens to people online constantly. And then one day, I just gave it away. I was like, it's never gonna happen. I just. This is. This is how it grows. And. And I'm lucky that it just keeps happening.

[B]

Yeah, slow and steady.

[A]

Yeah, very slow and steady. So I'm just gonna stick with slow and steady. Although, I mean, like, it's hard. Like, I'm a person, too. Like, I. I wake up one day and I'm like, how come I can't just double one time? Like. Like one time, like, and no. 11 years. All this effort. All this time, it just chugs along and does what it does and grows and grows and grows. And I just. One day. It was probably, like, three years ago, I was like, oh, you know what? Screw it. I'm like, it's fine. I'm not gonna think about it anymore. I spent too many years, like, wondering when that thing was gonna happen for me. And in the meantime, it was out there helping a ton of people. So.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, you're doing amazing things for. For the community, so thanks for that.

[A]

No, please, you're very nice. I didn't say that so you'd say something nice to me, but thank you.

[B]

No. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I appreciate this. Is there anything we missed or. Or skipped that I shouldn't have?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

All right, so then you're saying we did a good job.

[B]

I think so. I think we did a great job.

[A]

Awesome. I am going to find. So I'm on your website. Just. Oh, it's. It's with haven.org yep.org or.

[B]

Sorry. Or AI or dot AI? Both. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, okay. I'm going to say withhaven AI, because that seems, like, rememberable to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, well, maybe one day you'll click on that link and you'll hear this conversation.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. If you. If you share it back with me. I can. I was going to post it to the website, if I can.

[A]

Oh, I. I can give you a little player to put up.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, that would be awesome.

[A]

Very nice. Good for you. All right. Hey, listen, Heather, I want to wish you a ton of luck. You, your husband, your kids, the whole freaking disaster you have going on over there.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And I hope things start to go. To go the right way for you and things ease up. So you're my thoughts.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you so much. It was. It was great talking to you.

[A]

You too. Hold on one second for me, okay?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'd like to remind you again about the mini Med 780G automated insulin delivery system, which, of course anticipates, adjusts and corrects every 5 minutes, 24 7. It works around the clock so you can focus on what matters. The Juicebox community knows the importance of using technology to simplify managing diabetes. To learn more about how you can spend less time and effort managing your diabetes, Visit my link medtronicdiabetes.com Juicebox I'd like to thank the blood glucose meter that my daughter carries, the Contour Next Gen blood blood glucose meter. Learn more and get started [e-mail] juicebox. And don't forget, you may be paying more through your insurance right now for the meter you have than you would pay for the Contour Next gen in cash. There are links in the show notes of the audio app you're listening in right now and [e-mail] to contour and all of the sponsors. Hey, kids, listen up. You've made it to the end of the podcast. You must have enjoyed it. You know what else you might enjoy? The private Facebook group for the Juice Box Podcast. I know you're thinking, oh, Facebook, Scott, please. But no. Beautiful group, wonderful people, a fantastic community. Juice box podcast, type 1 diabetes on Facebook. Of course, if you have type 2, are you touched by diabetes in any way? You're absolutely welcome. It's a private group, so you'll have to answer a couple of questions before you come in. We'll make sure you're not a bottle or an evildoer, then you're on your way. You'll be part of the family.