#1781 Body Grief: Hopelessness, Hope & Self Care

Summary

Juicebox Podcast #1781 – Body Grief: Hopelessness, Hope & Self Care

Host: Scott Benner
Guest: Erica Forsyth
Date: February 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this culminating episode of the Body Grief series, Scott Benner and therapist Erica Forsyth explore the final stages of body grief as defined by Jane Mattingly, specifically as they relate to the lived experience of Type 1 Diabetes (T1D). Their conversation centers on the intertwining of hopelessness and hope, the transition to “body trust,” and accessible, real-world self-care practices to support holistic wellbeing—without glossing over the persistent challenges or expecting perfection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recap of Body Grief & Previous Stages

[03:56-05:47]

• Erica offers a recap of the body grief concept (via Jane Mattingly's work), describing it as “the sense of loss or mourning that comes with living in a body that’s ever changing.”
• Stages reviewed in earlier episodes:
  • Dismissal (“I’m fine!”)
  • Shock (overwhelm)
  • Apology (“Sorry for being me / my illness”)
  • Fault (“Why me?”)
  • Fight (“I’m going to beat this”)
• Today’s focus: Hopelessness/Hope and Body Trust.

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2. Stage Six: Hopelessness & Hope

[06:07-13:40]

• Hopelessness described as deep fatigue, withdrawal, isolation, and “canceling plans.”

  “You might be feeling like you are forgotten… you might feel like you're gonna be left behind.” – Erica [06:53]

• It’s common to conflate with depression or burnout; naming it can be powerful.
• Hope emerges as a subtle but vital counterforce:

  “Allowing yourself to consider that things could possibly get better… Not that they will, but just holding that hope.” – Erica [11:54]

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3. Tools & Strategies for Cultivating Hope

[15:48-30:33]

• Cognitive Techniques & Future Orientation:
  • “Who am I going to be in five minutes, five days, six months?” Use small, concrete upcoming events as emotional anchors (e.g., “I want to see Stranger Things when it comes out.”) [17:28]
  • “It keeps me alive to want to see a movie that's coming out a year from now... I do think it has a bearing on...doing better when [we] have tasks to do and goals.” – Scott [17:47]
• Reflection on Transience of Struggle:

  “The struggle that I remember doesn't exist anymore… that helps me the next time there’s a struggle—I think, there’ll be a day I won’t remember this and it’ll be gone.” – Scott [18:58]

• Anchors: People, places, things that give meaning.
• Role Modeling: Find or become a role model for others with T1D.
• Moments of Play: Tiny, accessible joys (dancing, card games) to break hopelessness loops.

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4. Understanding & Interrupting Negative Thought Loops

[22:52-29:09]

• Scott probes why humans get “stuck” in spirals of despair or anxiety (“the stutter spiral”).
• Erica discusses cognitive-behavioral frameworks:

  “We get stuck in this way of thinking...cognitive distortions like catastrophic thinking, black and white thinking...” [26:21]

• The practical interruption: Naming the feeling, externalizing it (“this is fear talking”) and self-compassion (even if it comes out as “Shut up, stupid” at first).

  “I gave myself some grace back... I said to myself, this is good—there’s a thing out in the world that makes me a little nervous. That’s good.” – Scott [27:42]

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5. Self-Compassion, Gratitude, and Body Trust

[30:33-39:57]

• Essential insight:

  “We cannot hate ourselves into becoming what we will be grateful for someday. That is shame.” – Erica (quoting Jane Mattingly) [30:33]

• In T1D: When numbers are off, meet “mistakes” with kindness and adjustment, not shame.
• Body Trust:
  • Not a final destination, but a practice: “For the body to trust us, we need to take care of it, be kind to it, nourish it.”
  • Modern life (and diet culture) often disconnects us from body cues (hunger, tiredness).

  “We want to be more ok with not being ok, because it’s really normal.” – Erica [32:44-34:50]

• Scott’s Reframe:

  “Aren't we [with chronic illness or aging bodies] the normal ones? People without any issues are probably far fewer than the ones that do.” – Scott [34:13]

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6. Redefining Self Care

[35:09-39:57]

• “Self-care is not about indulgence… it’s about listening to your body and giving it what it needs, not always just trying to make it feel better.” – Erica [35:10]
• Indulgences (massages, trips, shopping) are great, but aren’t the core—they’re not what builds body trust if used as pacifiers.
• Basic Self-Care Examples:
  • Eating when hungry, sleeping when tired, letting yourself cry.
  • Sensory/comfort practices: showers, favorite lotion, calling friends.
  • “Naked shower” (a T1D in-joke about not having CGMs/tech on) [38:54]
  • Mindful “digital hygiene”—being selective about social media/online diabetes communities to avoid overload or comparison traps.

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7. Interpersonal Support & Surrender

[42:32-44:46]

• Regulating your nervous system: grounding, breathing, (Erica skips “self-massage”—see “Memorable Moments”).
• Building trust in others: Empathy, risk-taking in seeking help.
• Hardest skill—surrender: Accepting a lack of control and letting go of the need for a perfect, pain-free life.

  “Life isn’t fair all the time… but we can practice building body trust that we have everything we need in our body.” – Erica [43:03]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hope:

  “Trusting the present enough to want to stick around for what the future holds.” – Erica [15:48]

• On Being Stuck:

  “It gets heavier and heavier and worse and worse… almost like a centrifuge; you’re stuck to the side—you can’t peel yourself off.” – Scott [22:52]

• On Interrupting Thought Loops:

  “Shut up, idiot. You’re just nervous because you don’t know what’s about to happen… that’s how I was raised.” – Scott [24:41] “Name it, interrupt it… and then offer compassion, not shame, because that keeps you trapped.” – Erica [28:11]

• On the T1D Community/Online Spaces:

  “Some people can’t make themselves responsible for everything coming out well… That is just not a reasonable position to put yourself in.” – Scott [41:32]

• On Self-Massage (comic break):
  [46:05–47:30] Lighthearted exchange on “self-massage” as a self-care tool and how Erica may have skipped it to avoid “stupid jokes” from Scott:

  “Did you skip it ‘cause you thought dummy’s gonna say something dumb if I say self massage?” – Scott
  “I might have done it… the adult inside you is like, let’s not go down that road with this guy.” – Erica [45:18–46:05]

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

• Review of Body Grief Stages and Context: [03:56–05:47]
• Hopelessness & Hope Discussion: [06:07–13:40]
• Cultivating Hope—Practical Tools: [15:48–22:52]
• Neuropsychology of Getting Stuck & CBT Tools: [22:52–29:09]
• Self-Compassion and Shame: [30:33–33:48]
• Redefining Self-Care and Body Trust: [35:09–39:57]
• Digital Hygiene & Community Dynamics: [39:57–42:32]
• Surrender and Acceptance: [42:32–44:46]
• Comic Relief on “Self Massage”: [45:16–47:30]

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Episode Tone & Flow

• The episode is empathetic, accessible, and occasionally humorous—Scott’s style grounds difficult concepts in everyday examples, while Erica brings clarity and professional insight.
• The tone is supportive and normalizing, addressing both the emotional heaviness of chronic illness and the practical, imperfect ways of coping. The banter and asides make the content less clinical and more approachable.

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Final Thoughts & Recommendations

• Erica and Scott advocate for moving forward with kindness, accepting imperfection, and rooting hope in concrete, small moments.
• Jane Mattingly’s book This is Body Grief is enthusiastically recommended for a deeper dive.
• Listeners are encouraged to reach out for support, practice self-compassion, and build routines that listen to their body rather than shame or ignore it.

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Related Resources from the Episode:

• Jane Mattingly’s Book: This is Body Grief
• Erica Forsyth’s website: ericaforsy.com
• Juicebox Podcast Facebook Group (large, supportive T1D community)

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Next Up?
Scott and Erica tease future collaborative series (possibly focused on teens with T1D)—but for now, they let listeners savor this closing of the body grief arc.

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone living with chronic illness, caregivers, or anyone experiencing body grief—offering both perspective and practical guidance for real-world resilience.

Transcript

[A]

Here we are back together again, friends, for another episode of the Juice Box Podcast. Body grief is the sense of loss and mourning that comes with living in an ever changing body. And in this new series with myself and Erica Forsyth, we're going to talk all about it. How would you like to share a type 1 diabetes getaway like no other? Join me on Juice Cruise 2026. You may be asking, what is Juice Cruise? It's a week long cruise designed specifically for people and families living with type 1 diabetes. It's not just a vacation, it's a chance to relax, connect and feel understood in a way that is hard to find elsewhere. We're going to sail out of Miami and the cruise includes stops in Cococay, San Juan, St. Kitts and Nevis aboard the stunning Celebrity Beyond. This ship is chosen for its comfort, accessibility and exceptional amenities. You're going to enjoy a welcoming environment surrounded by others who get life with type 1 diabetes. I'm going to host diabetes focused conversations and meetups on the days at sea. There's thoughtfully designed spaces, incredible dining and modern amenities all throughout the Celebrity Beyond. Your kids can be supervised and there's teen programs so everyone gets time to recharge, not just the kids going on vacation. But maybe you get to kick back a little bit too. There's going to be zero judgment, real connections and a whole lot of sun and fun on Juice Cruise 2026. Please come with me. You're going to have a terrific time. You can learn more or set up your deposit@juicebox podcast.com Juice Juice Cruise Get a hold of Suzanne at Cruise Planners. She will take care of everything. Links in the show Notes links@juicebox podcast.com I created the Diabetes Variables series because I know that in type 1 diabetes management, the little things aren't that little and they really add up. In this series we'll break down everyday factors like stress, sleep, exercise and those other variables that impact your day more than you might think. Jenny Smith and I are going to get straight to the point with practical advice that you can trust, so check out the Diabetes Variable series in your podcast player or@juicebox podcast.com nothing you hear on the Juice Box Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. The episode you're about to listen to was sponsored by touched by type 1. Go check them out right now on Facebook, Instagram and of [e-mail] check out that Programs tab when you get to the website to see all the great things that they're doing for people living with type 1 diabetes. Touched by type1.org Today's episode is also sponsored by Eversense365. The only one year wear CGM. That's one insertion and one CGM a year. One CGM, one year, not every 10 or 14 days. Eversensecgm.com Juicebox the podcast is also sponsored today by the Tandem MOBI system, which is powered by Tandem's newest algorithm, Control IQ Technology. Tandemoby has a predictive algorithm that helps prevent highs and lows and is now available for ages 2 and up. Learn more and get started today at tandomdiabetes.com Juicebox Erica, I appreciate you coming back. We are going to try to finish up the Body Grief series today. Is that right?

[B]

That's the plan, yes.

[A]

Look at us. How do you want to handle this? Do you want to just give a little overview of what you think, what got us to this point, and then how we're going to finish up? Or do you just want to jump in? What do you think?

[B]

I think let's do a quick recap in light of this perhaps being our final episode of the series. So kind of reviewing the body grief stages and this these are as defined by Jane Mattingly from her book this is body grief. And body grief is, you know, the experience or the sense of loss or mourning that comes with living in a body, right? The having that feeling that you wish you could go back to, the way your body used to function, the way your body used to look, and the sense of loss that accompanies that longing. And so the stages that she defines, there are seven of them and so far we've reviewed five or discussed five. The first one's dismissal, which sounds like, I'm fine, everything's fine. The second one is shock, though that might sound like you're feeling overwhelmed and feeling like you just can't keep going, you can't function. Apology is the third stage. Kind of sounding like, I'm sorry for being me. I'm sorry for the way I'm presenting. I'm sorry for my illness. The fourth stage is fault. And that sounds like, why me? Why did this happen? Could I have done anything differently? And the fifth stage is fight, which sounds like I'm going to beat this thing. And so we've discussed all of those in previous episodes. And so today I thought we could discuss the stage six, which is combined hopelessness and hope together. And then the final stage is body trust, which ultimately we're discussing it as the final stage and even naming it as such, but really, it's something that we want to practice and integrate as you work through the different stages. Okay, so how does that sound?

[A]

I'm incredibly interested. I have enjoyed this conversation a lot so far and have seen a number of comments online recently about how people feel just about you being on the podcast in general and how valuable they find these conversations. So, honestly, I'm excited to finish this one up and then figure out what we're going to talk about next.

[B]

Yes. Yes. Great. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. So this stage six, hopelessness and hope. So, again, these are definitions and tools that Jane, the author, uses, and then we're trying to kind of apply them and discuss them through the lens of living with diabetes. So when you're in hopelessness, this one is probably very clear and obvious. It sounds like, you know, what is the point of all this? You're feeling devastated. It's also a very natural place to be. We all experience hopelessness at some point. It often feels like it hits when there's just no way out. Like, you can't excuse yourself, you can't dismiss it. You are out of kind of the wimey stage, and you're the. That might even lead to that feeling of hopelessness. You might be feeling like you are forgotten, right? Like, you get diagnosed or you go through a new challenge within your life with diabetes, and people are still living their lives, and you might feel like you're gonna be left behind. If you are in hopelessness, this might feel or sound a little bit like, you know, depression that you're feeling really lethargic, you have really intense fatigue, you might be sleeping more, you are canceling plans. And then that isolation as a result of those other feelings and behaviors that can lead to even more thoughts of just a feeling left behind, of feeling stuck, of feeling like no one really understands what you're going through. And then ultimately, you stop using the coping skills that you know would help you kind of move out of this space, but you feel like you just can't.

[A]

That's maybe the part where you give in and just throw in the towel.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So in the beginning, you experience some sort of a change in your body's ability to do what you expect to do. And you can feel like, okay, this vessel is not doing what was promised here. And then this drift, if you're not supporting yourself correctly, this drift can get worse and worse and worse until you finally just throw in the towel and you go, I. I give up. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna feel like this forever. I have a failed body. It's not gonna do what I need to do instead of reframing, because I don't find that to be. I'm not saying everybody's situation's exactly the same, but for the most part, you know, type 1 diabetes is not gonna leave you in a situation where, you know, where your body can't keep up with your activities and the things you want to do. There's obviously more steps to take sometimes, and some people have greater struggles than others. But I have also seen people who I think are just bowled over by this thing, which I would have probably called depression at first, but now that you've outlined it like this, it really does feel more focused on this letdown that you've experienced.

[B]

And they can commingle, right? I mean, hopelessness is a symptom of depression, so. And also, this might sound like burnout, right? Like, you might get to this place where you just feel like you can't keep doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. And, yes, this might. You might experience. It's really normal to experience feeling of hopelessness, whether it's with diabetes or any other change in your body. Like, even if we were to simplify it with a cold and you had all these plans and then you had to cancel them, and. And when you have that letdown, right, when you feel like you just. You can't do anything and your body is shifting and you're like, gosh, why couldn't it be like it was yesterday? So it can be very small, this feeling of hopelessness, but also can become bigger given many different factors. But I think just naming it is really helpful, too, to notice, oh, my gosh. Okay. I'm having these thoughts and feelings. I'm canceling plans. I'm feeling isolated. I feel like no one really is getting this, oh, I'm. I'm in this hopelessness stage, and to name it and normalize it. And then we're going to talk about, you know, kind of the flip side of it, which is hope.

[A]

I think that the thing that I like most about this conversation is that you can see that this exists outside of diabetes or outside of chronic illness at all. Like, the people can experience this for, you know, I don't know, pain that won't go away or even a body style change. I wouldn't call it body grief, but I've had trouble, like, adjusting to just not weighing as much. It has been odd at times, and and impactful. And so like understanding that this feeling can. Can come from a lot of different places, but that you might be experiencing it out there, listening. Because of type one, I find that just. I don't know. I find that distinction incredibly important.

[B]

I don't want to say yes. And I think that's part of why I think this book, a, I think has been successful to a lot of different types of people. It is a universal experience of loss that we all have, whether it's with a chronic illness or a change in body style or body type or the chronic pain that just won't go away. And I think having these and having terms helps us contain like, oh, this is what's happening. This is what I'm experiencing. And feeling less alone in it and less, hopefully less stuck.

[A]

It would have never occurred to me without this conversation that I had a preconceived expectation of the shell that I'm walking around in and that if it doesn't do the thing that I've come to expect it to do, that that could be a letdown in some way. I genuinely never would have thought about it if it, if it didn't. If it didn't. It didn't come up like this. So anyway, I'm grateful you brought this to me. Yeah. But go ahead and move on. I apologize for cutting you off.

[B]

So I think what I appreciate the way that she discusses the fact that hopelessness and hope can go hand in hand, that whenever we are experiencing hopelessness, we are able to kind of hold on to. Right. And say, okay, things have got to change. Things are going to get better. And not in a kind of magical thinking kind of way, but trusting that things are going to shift. Now when we, when it's hard to get to that space, that's when perhaps you might be experiencing more clinical levels of depression. So I don't want to kind of say just, just think that things could change and things will get better and it'll be fine. Because that's can be really hard to do when you're in severe levels of depression. She defines kind of hope that is this glue, right. That keeps the body grief process together. And so how do you know if you're able to experience what are some signs that you're in hope? So it is allowing yourself to consider that things could possibly get better. So I'm envisioning, like, you're in this position. You're feeling like, first of all, how did I get here? How did I get diabetes? How am I ever going to feel better. How am I going to cope? Why did this happen to me? I'm feeling so isolated and alone and I'm not gonna reach out for help. So I that was kind of. I'm quickly moving through the stages. If you are able to say, okay, things are really hard right now, but I'm gonna allow myself the option to consider that things might get better. Not. Not that they will. Not that like you're gonna click your heels or tomorrow's Monday and it's gonna be great on Monday. Everything's gonna reset. But just holding that hope.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, it's a possibility. Okay, so. And that's what she calls practicing blind faith. So we're not out there kind of chasing the cure, which I know we so desperately want, and we can get kind of stuck in some of those traps. But it's about, she just says, trusting the present enough to want to stick around for what the future holds. I like that. Even when you're in your really moment full of despair and you're feeling really, you know, just crappy emotionally, maybe even physically, say, okay, things. It will. It will not stay this way forever.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So if that's hard to envision, how can you cultivate more of that hope? So Here are some 4, 4 tools that I think are pretty helpful, hopefully will be helpful. Asking yourself, okay, who am I going to be in the future? Getting to know your future. You. So this is. If you're feeling really stuck and trapped, who am I going to be in five minutes, in five days, in one month, in six months? Right. Asking yourself, what have you been excited about recently? What has been bringing you contentment? Do you feel supported right now? And who is supporting you in the future? What is bringing you joy? So that is a mind exercise because even though you're feeling maybe hopeless right now, you're kind of getting yourself to the place of, like, things might get better. Because I'm envisioning in five months from now, oh, this thing is bringing me joy, or this person is really supporting me right now. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah. And can it be small? Just like, slam dunks that you know are going to happen anyway? Like, can I be like, oh, my God, stranger things is coming out. I'm going to be excited when that happens? That kind of stuff.

[B]

Yes, yes. Anchor. Yes. Anchoring onto something that you know will be exciting and perhaps fulfilling. And it could be very small or very big.

[A]

Yeah. So almost cheat. Like, put something out in front of yourself, like a goal that you know is definitely going to happen. Like, well, I'm going to be super excited when Wednesday gets here. And then when Wednesday comes, be like, whoa, we did it. Right? Yeah. No, hey, listen, I do that with. Does everyone not do this? Like, I think it keeps me alive to want to see a movie that's coming out a year from now. I always think, like, oh, I just want to watch that movie. Then once I see it, I go, oh, I. I want to make it to next summer to see this one. I know that's got no real bearing on my actual longevity, but I do think it has a bearing on. I don't think it's debatable that human beings do better when they have tasks to do and when they have goals. And so if you can do goal setting around the body grief thing, that makes complete sense to me. And yeah, it's really awesome. It's positive self talk. That's what it is, really. Right.

[B]

This is a form of it, for sure. Yeah. Just reminding yourself that even though you don't feel great right now, you in five, in six months from now, I know I'm going to be excited because to use your example, the show is coming out or this new episode. So you're reminding yourself internally that the way you're thinking and feeling right now is not permanent, it's not fixed.

[A]

Do you know, small things give me that feeling. I actually thought today when I was thinking about the span of time that I've owned a car in the past, that I don't remember driving anymore. But at the time it was my car, it was important to me. It got dirty, I washed it off, I kept it clean inside. It got me where I was going. And now it's as if it didn't exist. And when I think about struggle the same way I have struggled in the past too, but that struggle that I remember doesn't exist anymore. I actually can't even feel it anymore. And that helps me the next time there's a struggle, because I think that there'll be a day in my life where I won't remember this and it'll be gone. And therefore it makes it feel very transient. And it doesn't stick to me the same way then. I've been doing that my whole life, though, so I don't know what that is. I'm sure at some point it was coping, but now I just realize it works

[B]

well, it's coping that works for you.

[A]

Who cares, right? Anyway, I'm sorry. Keep going.

[B]

Oh, it's good. Okay. So another, you know, another tool to help you cultivate some more hope is reminding yourself of what she calls anchors, the people. It could be people, but places or things too that bring you meaning. It keep you kind of anchored, tethered to the world, no matter how bad things may feel or how bad things may get. And so you're remembering. This is kind of like you could do even guided imagery exercises, right? Anchoring yourself to that feeling that you had laying on the beach that one time. It doesn't have to always necessarily be the people that you are counting on, because sometimes that might lead you to feel. If you're feeling lonely or alone and don't have that sense of support right now, that can also maybe take you down a path you don't want to go down, but just remembering those places, people, things that make you feel connected to the world. Okay, the next couple, becoming a role model. You might even have role models that you look to, whether it's on, you know, in your personal life, on social media, but also considering, can you be someone else's role model? I think this is oftentimes I know teens and young adults who maybe have gone through a challenging time of kind of integrating diabetes into their identity. They often then find great healing and joy by looking kind of backwards and seeing who can I support now who's newly diagnosed is a really beautiful way to kind of help cultivate more of that hope. Okay, last two play. Finding moments of play. And I think we often think these can be really, like, I need to go into this show. I need to go on a trip. I need to have buy this big thing. But just going back down to the small things of, like playing a card game. I know we like, you know, dancing to your favorite song in the kitchen. Like, these are really small things that interrupt the spiral of thinking that you're stuck and that the way you feel is permanent. And you're thinking about, well, what am I gonna. What hand am I gonna play next? What card can I play next? Right. It's just very, very small things that you might be hard to start, but if you can get to that first few minutes of like, I'm gonna play. I'm gonna press play on this music. I'm gonna ask this person to play this game. And seeing what happens, is that a distraction?

[A]

Is that the role it plays, or.

[B]

Yes, absolutely, it's a distraction and then gets you to a different place in your mind. It interrupts the thought pattern of a feeling of permanency, of hopelessness, and it gets kind of that little dopamine hit. And so this is separate from maybe going. I know we often will want to go to scrolling to get those dopamine hits, but this is something different that's really small within your control.

[A]

Is there. Can I take a sidebar for a second? Maybe you don't do or don't know the answer to my question, or maybe my question's ridiculous, but is there a, like, a intellectual, scientific understanding of how people get stuck in that loop, because that is really like. Because you're describing, like you're caught in a loop. Like, get out of it. And so that your brain can focus on other things. You know, you start, I don't know, I broke up with a girl. I broke up. And you keep thinking about it, and then it just feels like it gets heavier and heavier and worse and worse. Almost like a centrifuge. You're stuck to the side. You can't peel yourself off. As faster it goes, the more you're stuck. Is there an understanding of why that happens to human beings at all? Or is that just the thing we know happens and we're not sure why?

[B]

Like neuro in a neuropsychological way?

[A]

Is something happening to them or is this purely brain chemistry?

[B]

And I think it's how our brains operate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then we get. We get stuck in this way of thinking. And this is. If we're where we're going to delve into, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy and kind of neuroscience. We get stuck in this way of thinking because, like with the cognitive behavioral triangle, you know, we will do something and then we think a certain way, and then that makes us feel a certain way. Or you could start with a thought and then we get stuck in that.

[A]

It stutters almost, and then it just. And it kicks over and does it again.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

And now, like neurologically neuro kind of in a psychological way. I'm not sure I could explain why, but I think that's a good question for us to explore.

[A]

How do you get on that off ramp when you feel it coming? You know, because that's.

[B]

That's. Yeah, that's another.

[A]

I have a. I have a silly example. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sorry for everybody. I guess I'm announcing here one of my chameleons has passed away and.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[A]

She'd lived a good long time and made it pretty far, but I had space and a different animal that I had considered getting for a number of years. And yesterday I went to pick it up and I've done all of my research. I'm completely comfortable at how to take care of it. I have the cagings correct. Everything about it is right. I have the desire. I can afford it. Like the entire thing. Like there's nothing there. The only thing that exists there that is outside of my control is that I've never owned this kind of animal before. And I have some trepidation about that, but that's it. It's a healthy amount of trepidation. And as I was driving to the FedEx location to pick it up, I felt myself getting nervous to the point where I thought, oh, my God, I shouldn't have done this. And as soon as I had that thought, I stopped myself and I went, oh, shut up, idiot. You're just nervous because you don't know what's about to happen. You just can't see on the other side of the wall, like, you've got it all thought through. You're good to go. You'll know what to do as the things happen. But my God, how interesting is that, that even on something so small that I prepared so much for that, my brain was able to look at me and go, hey, you are making a huge mistake right now. And I don't know why I was able to go. I mean, it's a small example, but, like, what allows you to go, I'll be all right, and keep going and trust yourself versus getting caught in that stutter spiral and then going, oh, God, I did the wrong thing. I got to call the guy and take it back and hopefully he'll refund it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, but, you know, why can't you get off that. That ramp when. When it's the right thing to do? I don't know. Sorry.

[B]

Well, so you, you probably have had experience of interrupting that thought. You know, we have all these different types of cognitive distortions that could be. You know, they're. They're fear based on. There are all different reasons why we have different distortions, like catastrophic thinking, black and white thinking, magical thinking. And so in that moment, you are having some normal, probably anxiety and fear based from probably your grief. I don't know if we're doing really quick analysis here. And then you were able to interrupt it and you did some externalizing and named, like, oh, this is fear talking. Right. That's what we talk about in the CPT tool is to, like, name and notice when those thoughts are happening. And that takes practice because then you're. You're noticing it. You know what, it sounds like you're naming it, and then you're interrupting it. You. You chose. Shut up, stupid. Sometimes that works for people, sometimes it doesn't. That might cause more kind of conflictual dialogue in people's minds. Yeah, but it could also be like, oh, you could choose, like, the compassionate way. Like, oh, this is. This is you feeling nervous. This is me feeling nervous. And I think I've got the tools and we're going to give it a go.

[A]

I will give you the end of how I talk. After I told myself to shut up, I actually, I gave myself some grace back. I can't believe I'm using words like this.

[B]

It becomes good.

[A]

I've become such a hippie, but I'm self compassionate. I said to myself, this is good. There's a thing out in the world that makes me a little nervous. That's good. I should keep doing things that make me feel like I don't exactly have control over this. Like that's how I'm going to grow and you know, and I get. So I ended up just. I basically took the thing I was afraid of and then gave myself credit for it and then just zipped on. Didn't think about it again. Okay, all right. I don't know. I feel like that story fit here, but it did.

[B]

No, I think it's good because it's. Yeah. Again, we're noticing those patterns. You're naming it, interrupting it. And then you offered that then the tool was the compassionate self talk and not the shame. Like, oh, you did this again. Right. Because then that keeps you trapped.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't feel bad for that. I just. I probably just, you know, the shut up stupid part, that was just how I was raised. Like, you know, if. So I know I can shut my emotions off if I get yelled at. So I was like, okay, like I'll just stop myself for a second then. Once I had a clear mind, I recognized why I was nervous and I. And then I actually thought, and it's funny, it's not a feeling for me. I've heard other people say it, that it's good to do things that stretch you, that make you a little nervous. Right. And I thought, okay, well, I'll just believe those people who say that and I'll apply that to myself. And I was on my way again. So my point is, is that if you just believe Erica, you should be able to apply it and move on. I mean, hopefully, good luck and all, but you know.

[B]

Yes, I wanted to say, well, I'm sorry for the loss of your chameleon and I am tempted to ask you which animal, but maybe you want to save that for another time. I can't see because of your.

[A]

Yeah, I'm blurred out in the background.

[B]

Yeah, you're blurred.

[A]

I don't know. I'll save that for another time, Erica. Yeah, but I got a. It's not a chameleon. It's a different kind of lizard. Okay, so.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[A]

That's what I'll say for Now, Okay.

[B]

All right. And we will wait anxiously to hear.

[A]

I'll bring it up at some point in 2026. I'll tell you. I can't give it all away today. Okay.

[B]

Oh, gosh, I'm sorry.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

So, okay, so I think we are going to actually move some self compassion and some tools. But I think one last tool in terms of the hopelessness and hope conversation is, you know, if you're able to ask yourself, what, what do you need in that moment? Is it, is it some. An actual physical hug from someone? Is it a phone call? Or do you need a solution? Do you need a fix? Do you need more support from your endo? Do you need more support from how to change your rates? You know, just being able to ask yourself, okay, I'm really feeling stuck, but what is it that I need? And sometimes it's hard to identify what you need in that moment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it might take a couple tries to say, maybe I need this, maybe I need that.

[A]

Yeah, no, I, I hope, I hope everybody finds that answer. But okay, move, move, please move on.

[B]

Okay. Yes, let's move on. So when you are experiencing hopelessness, believing that someday you will feel hope again, practicing that blind faith, recognizing that, I think it's important to recognize that self compassion and gratitude go hand in hand. And perhaps, I don't know if I've said this quote before in previous episodes, but this is one of my favorites in the book is we cannot hate ourselves into becoming what we will be grateful for someday, right? That is shame. And we often feel like shame can move us, but it keeps us trapped. So switching that and thinking for this diabetes example, if you're looking at your numbers, right, and you're saying, okay, my numbers are higher today than I want them to be, or I miss bullaced, whatever, for this meal, that's okay. I'm allowed to be flawed. I'm allowed to be human. And I'm grateful that I have the ability to make a correction now or next time, right? So this is. Obviously we're gonna, we wanna look at patterns and we need to make shifts, but this is, you know, if you're noticing that you're experiencing the shame and like, why, why can't I get this? Why can't I figure this out? Why do I keep messing up? Going back to not only the self compassion, but trying to integrate moments of that gratitude too. Like, okay, I messed up, it's okay, I'm gonna make, I'm gonna make it. I'm grateful that I can make this correction now. I can do something different next time. That leads us to the final stage, body trust, which, as a reminder, the definition is, in order to trust our bodies, our body needs to trust us to take care of it, be kind to it, and nourish it in all ways. So again, body trust is not this final destination that we're trying to reach, but something that we want to kind of practice and integrate as you're moving through these stages. Body trust is something that is innate, but we kind of skip over that. Like we. For when we're hungry, our body gives us this cue and it growls. But oftentimes, instead of, you know, having. Being able to have a meal and sit down and enjoy it, we'll grab a bar and run. I know that's not always practical to be able to do that, but just we're talking about, like, consistently maybe ignoring these cues. Maybe you're sleepy every afternoon, and we just, you know, instead of taking a nap, you drink your third cup of coffee, which I can be certainly guilty of. Right? So instead of taking a nap, resting, listening to her body, we're kind of pushing through those cues. Practicing body trust can be intuitive, but oftentimes we get so consumed by this, by societal pressure, by our kind of culture, that. That your. That your body is defective. Right. When we're. When we're diagnosed with something, but actually we know it's not, and it. Understanding that we're. We want to be more okay with not being okay because it's really normal. Like, I wonder, you know, if we were to take a poll of everyone every day and how many people are like, I'm great. I'm fine. Or we. Or more people are like, I'm. I'm not okay, but I'm just pretending,

[A]

you know, I always think that there's got, you know, we. People are like, oh, I'd like to be normal. You know, I hear people say all the time, like, my kid got diabetes. I just want them to be normal. Between diabetes and everything else and all the other things that go wrong with people's bodies as they age, I would imagine that people who don't have any issues are probably far fewer than the ones that do. Aren't we normal and they're not.

[B]

Yeah. You know, and what. And, yeah, what is normal?

[A]

You know, I think it really does lead you into expectation. Like, you expect your body to be perfect, but, I mean, look around. That's not really what happens. I mean, I don't know that I know anyone. Well, who. I could say they don't have one issue. And their system just works perfectly, you know, and if. Even if the ones that do eventually will run into something. And I don't mean like, you know, I don't mean death at the end. I mean along the way, like your body wears out. It's a machine. It, you know, it rubs and it rubs and breaks down. So. Okay, I'm sorry. Anyway, just think of. Try thinking of maybe you're normal and they're not. That's what I was gonna say.

[B]

Yeah. As you are trying to integrate this practice of the two way street of, you know, listening to your body and your body trusting you. So trying to listen and respond to your body cues with compassion instead of just like ignoring it. Having the coffee, pushing through. And again, I know it's not practical all the time, but just trying to integrate some of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So how do you build more moments of body trust? I know we've talked about self care various times throughout all of our episodes that we've recorded, but I think I like this perspective and that self care is not about indulgence. Even though in our, you know, in our capitalist society, we are often told that buying the thing that you've always wanted or getting the massage or doing the thing that will make you happy, that's a form of self care. And while certainly that is. And it's about, you know, you're trying to make yourself feel better, what we want to kind of shift is that basic self care is about listening to your body and giving it what it needs and not necessarily always trying to make it feel better. Does that make sense? That shift of like, we're trying to listen and build trust with our body as opposed to trying to just always. And in that process, you might feel better, but we're not doing the thing that's gonna make it feel better in the moment all of the time.

[A]

Support yourself without expecting perfection afterwards. Give it the thing. Like I went to. I got a massage last week. I'm not embarrassed, Erica.

[B]

No, that's good. Massages are great.

[A]

My hip pointers were really sore and my lower back is always stiff and my neck is stiff. Right. So when I went in, you know, the person asked me, like, what, what are my problem areas? So my nest, my neck stiff, my lower back and, you know, my hips and I left and she got all the pain out of my hips and she loosened up my neck. It isn't great, but it was better. And I left thinking, oh, good, this was an improvement. That's what you're talking about like do something. But like I could have left going like, well, my shoulders aren't completely better and my back still feels a little stiff. So this was a waste of time. Like just. Is that what you're saying? Like, don't expect perfection at the end. Just do something for yourself and hopefully commutatively it might help.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I missed it. Go ahead.

[B]

No, no, I think so. Getting a massage, buying that sweater you've always wanted, taking that trip that you've always longed to do, that those are all beautiful and great things to do. But if you're hanging your hat on that type of what we might label as self indulgence, as always trying to make yourself, that's what you do to make yourself feel better. That isn't necessarily building the body trust.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because a, you can't always maybe afford it. You might not have the time and then you realize, wait, but I'm still feeling this way. Or I'm still kind of questioning why did this happen to me?

[A]

Don't fall back on big gestures and use them as like a pacifier. Is that the idea?

[B]

Yes. Yes. So I think what maybe we give some examples of like building body trust and what basic self care looks like. So it's going back to, you know, eating when you're hungry, sleeping when you're tired, crying when you're sad. Like letting yourself connect physically with your body and what it needs, you know, hygiene, being, practicing hygiene, self care. Maybe it's taking a longer shower and for some people it might mean brushing your teeth twice a day. Sometimes that can be hard to do given whatever stage of grief you might be in. Maybe it's using perfume or lotion that you save for special occasions and use it at the day you're at home. Right. Building in time to call your friends. Some people for diabetes after showers, they like to take a little bit longer before they put their devices on. If you're happened to have it. The naked shower or the whatever. You know what I mean?

[A]

Naked shower is one of my favorite diabetes terms because it must sound funny, it must sound ridiculous to everybody else.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I even I, yeah, it is a funny thing because we usually are naked when we shower, but we know what that means.

[A]

Wait, you take all your clothes off in the shower? I think I'm doing it wrong.

[B]

Okay, no, so taking, taking that. Just that if you are able to, obviously making sure you're safe, et cetera, but tending to your body, listening to your body, giving it what it needs. Not only basic Self care, hygiene, digital hygiene, being mindful of, you know, as we've talked about before, how much time you're spending on social media for people who only have diabetes accounts and they follow only diabetes, you know, groups, influencers, et cetera. I know that can be really encouraging and supportive and you feel like you're a bigger part of this community, but I know it also can lead to feeling either envious or you kind of get stuck in this comparison trap. And so just being mindful of your digital hygiene practice as well.

[A]

In all the years we've been doing stuff together, Erica, you finally said something I cannot get behind. I need everybody to listen to the podcast and keep following on the podcast.

[B]

I think you, with the exception of juice bugs, always follow them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, but, no, you make a great point there. And I've actually, I get to watch people have an experience of being group experts in the Facebook page. And my feeling about how to manage that, a big community like that very much is that it's about sharing information with people, pointing them in the right direction, you know, if people are being, you know, horrible stopping them, like that kind of stuff. But mostly I just. I'm live and let live. I like to see adults act as adults and figure things out for themselves. But I've seen that sometimes you can make somebody, you know, a group expert, for example, and it gives them a pressure that they have to impact the thing. And. And I can see the anxiety that it puts on them. Some of them, when they see something and they think that can't stand like that. It needs to be commented on or changed or stopped or, you know, corrected or whatever. And then there are times when they realize they don't. They don't have power over it. And it is. It causes what I would call consternation with them. Like, they can't just walk away from it. I've been doing this a long time, and I recognize that, you know, we've got some ways we do things, we do them that way. If it doesn't work out, we tried, but it's not on me. I can't carry that. That's not a weight for me to carry. After that, I did what I could do. If you don't want to interact with it in a way, that's going to resolve it. I feel bad for you, but I got to move on. But I see some people, can't they get stuck. Like, we, you know, I. But we can't let them say that it's wrong or, you know, but some, I'M like, no, it's just they're people talking like you can't, you can't make yourself responsible for everything coming out well. And I can see that bigger picture happening to people when they're involved in this too. Like they get that feeling of like you feel responsible for what the whole world's saying and that is just not a reasonable position to put yourself in. Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up.

[B]

Yeah. It's just another thing to be mindful of, you know, how much time you're spending and how is that impacting how you feel for whatever it may be.

[A]

You can get caught up in something too and not see the forest or the trees in those situations. And, and that's, that's why I think putting it down once in a while, anything really and getting some distance from it really does help, you know, refocus your perspective. So. I'm sorry, you.

[B]

Yes. Okay, so a few more examples of, you know, trying to build, increase more moments of body trust. Obviously regulating your nervous system with, with breathing, with grounding. We know that tool and that can be a very small but significant tool. Building trust with others, you know, have offering empathy and compassion towards people, but also reminding yourself that they are human, but then also leaning on them. Right. I think so often we might be hesitant to reach out for help because we think, well may they've got too much going on. How could they ever listen to what I need or what I'm going through? And then that keeps you trapped and isolated. So it's risky, it's risky to build trust and this kind of the healthy codependency with others. But that is a tool to build some of this body trust. And then finally, this is probably the hardest thing is surrendering, letting go of control and accepting that life isn't fair all the time. And this is hard because we don't want to accept that. We want to fight. We want to make sure we are the healthiest possible and pain free and chronic illness free. But when the more we lean into this and say, okay, I cannot control what happened, this happened to me, or I got diagnosed with this, the more we can trust that we don't always have control, we don't always get what we want. But we can practice building that body trust that we have everything we need in our body. And that goes right back to then to the basics again of eating when you're hungry, sleeping when you're tired. So it's kind of this full circle loop that hopefully all of these tools will help you move through these body grace stages. Again, body trust is something that we don't. It's not like once you do this all the time, you've arrived. These are things that we can always practice and integrate as we feel in shock or we're in the apology stage or fight stage, wherever it might be.

[A]

Great conversation. That's really wonderful. I have to ask a question. I mean, we're pretty much through and gotten through what you wanted to talk about. And I'm gonna pull the curtain back for some people. A few moments ago, Erica's reading, and she's got some notes for herself here. And under examples of regulate your nervous system. She has three examples. She read you two of them and skipped the third one. And I thought, oh, yeah, I did. Is that because she doesn't want me to say something stupid or did she miss it?

[B]

Now you want me to say, yes.

[A]

Did you skip it cause you thought dummy's gonna say something dumb if I say self massage?

[B]

Oh, okay. Because when I have something spoken. You know, I have spoken on this topic before, and I know. I'm pretty sure I've said self massage. I don't know. I wonder, Scott, I wonder if I had said that, you might have said something and that would have made me feel embarrassed.

[A]

I actually was thinking, like, is she trying to. Like, is her? Because I really looked at your face, and when you skipped it, I laughed to see. To see if you would acknowledge my laughter. But you didn't. So, like.

[B]

So I might have done it.

[A]

Yeah. The adult inside of you is like, let's not go down this road with this guy.

[B]

I am not conscious of what decision I made there. But you're right. I mean, I think I skip around a little bit here and there.

[A]

I want to make clear to people, like, Eric is not reading. She has, like, an outline for herself that she puts together. But sometimes when she hits examples that she's laid down for herself, she goes through them. And so I listen so people can get the curtain pulled back a little bit. I've been trying to do a better job of keeping up with your notes because I think there are times in the past when I'm, like, coming to these realizations and realizing it to the end too quickly. And then Erica's like, I was getting to that man.

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

But it's because I'm unaware of her notes. I'm just going through the process with her, and she's giving me aha moments as I'm listening. But I've been trying to look while you're Like, I don't know if you've noticed, I haven't been looking at you as much. I've been looking at what you're reading. Right. And boy, I just was like. You were like, grounding. Deep breathing. And then you went to. And you can trust others. Like, damn, she skipped right over self massage. Also, what is self massage? Is that me rubbing my own arm or something? Is that really helpful?

[B]

Yeah. Or like people do, they can put, you know, pressure points on your forehead.

[A]

To myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah. Or on your. Your palms.

[A]

What I get married for. Why do I have to do this?

[B]

I mean, or there's all different types of.

[A]

Do you know the one in between your thumb and your pointer finger you press into that web there? Yeah, that's a good one.

[B]

Yeah, that is a good one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All sorts of. I mean, those. Those are some examples.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, thank you.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I can't believe we're ending on this, but I kind of can.

[A]

I mean, what are we going to do? I'm trying to keep it light. Listen, we just did a whole series about what happens when people feel like their body abandoned them if we don't try to lighten this up. My goodness, I hope Jane Mattingly hears this. I hope she's impressed with our breakdown of her book. And. And you really do suggest people go out and get the book, right?

[B]

Yes, I think it's. I mean, it's. She covers a lot. I mean, this is.

[A]

We're.

[B]

We're covering the basics, but I think it's the first book that I have read that really connects to the experience of not just grief stages that we've talked about a lot over the years, but really apply it to the physical sense of loss that people experience with the diagnosis of diabetes.

[A]

Listen a bunch. You go get that book. Like it and then leave a nice Amazon review that mentioned you heard it on the podcast. Maybe we'll get Jane Mattingly on and then Erica can.

[B]

That'd be cool.

[A]

I'll invite Eric on and she'll geek out and ask her a bunch of questions.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'll sit in the background, just wait for self massage to pop up again. Doing my part in this whole thing, which apparently is listening to smart people talk, than saying something stupid that dumbs down their conversation. I was interviewing someone the other day, and such a. Such a bright lady, and she laid this whole thing out. And then I kind of like threw a synopsis together, and she goes, well, you really reframed that wonderfully. I was like, that's my whole job. I was like, I've come to understand that's actually my job.

[B]

So anyway, that's a skill.

[A]

I appreciate you bringing this to me. Do you have any idea. Let us. Let us tease the audience. Do you have any idea what you think you and I are going to do next?

[B]

I know we've talked about it and we've written it down, but I cannot recall the moment.

[A]

It's like it's written down somewhere. I don't remember what it is, and trust me, I don't either. That's why I was asking you.

[B]

We have a list somewhere.

[A]

Let them wonder. It's fine. These people got to go. They got to go back to work. I mean, there are you guys.

[B]

I know we've talked about teenagers, a teen series. I know we've talked about that.

[A]

You will find something. Don't worry.

[B]

Yeah, it'll be great.

[A]

Scotty will come up with something, or Erica will. Like, this was your baby here, this body grief thing?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, if you ever see Erica out in the wild giving talks, she does a great little. Little breakdown of body grief in person you might want to check out.

[B]

Well, thank you. Yes.

[A]

Do you have any talking speaking gigs coming up?

[B]

The only one for sure is next September. Touched By Type one.

[A]

That's the yearly time when Eric and I have dinner together.

[B]

Yes. It's lovely. The annual conference in Orlando.

[A]

Nine more months, then we can do it again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Is it really nine months till then?

[A]

I mean, it's January.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[A]

That's how it works, isn't it? I'm at the age where I'm like, God, if I live that long, that'll be amazing. I know that's ridiculous, but it's how I feel.

[B]

I think you're on a good track.

[A]

Yeah, we'll see. Thank you so much for doing this. Ericaforsy.com head over.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Thank you, Scott.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

The conversation you just heard was Sponsored by TouchedBy Type 1. Check them out, please, at touchedbytype1.org on Instagram and Facebook. You're gonna love them. I love them. They're helping so many people. @touchedbytype1.org Today's episode is also sponsored by the new Tandem MOBI system and control IQ technology. Learn more and get started today at tandomdiabetes.com Juicebox check it out. Are you tired of getting a rash from your CGM adhesive? Give the Eversense 365 a try. Eversensecgm.com Juicebox beautiful silicone that they use. It changes every day. It keeps it fresh. Not only that, you only have to change the sensor once a year. So I mean, that's better. Okay, well, here we are at the end of the episode. You're still with me. Thank you. I really do appreciate that. What else could you do for me? Why don't you tell a friend about the show or leave a five star review? Maybe you could make sure you're following or subscribed in your podcast app. Go to YouTube and follow me. Or Instagram TikTok. Oh gosh, here's one. Make sure you're following the podcast in the private Facebook group as well as the public Facebook page. You don't want to miss, please. Do you not know about the private group? You have to join the private group. As of this recording, it has 74,000 members. They're active, talking about diabetes. Whatever you need to know. There's a conversation happening in there right now and I'm there all the time. Tag me, I'll say hi. If this is your first time listening to the Juice Box Podcast and you'd like to hear more, download Apple Podcasts or Spotify, really any audio app at all. Look for the Juice Box Podcast and follow or subscribe. We put out new content every day that you'll enjoy. Want to learn more about your diabetes management? Go to juiceboxpodcast.com up in the menu and look for Bold Beginnings, the Diabetes Pro Tip series and much more. This podcast is full of collections and series of information that will help you to live better with insulin. Hey, what's up everybody? If you've noticed that the podcast sounds better and you're thinking like, how does that happen? What you're hearing is Rob at Wrong Way Recording doing his magic to these files. So if you want him to do his magic to you, wrongway recording.com you got a podcast, you want somebody to edit it, you want Rob.