← Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald
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- [00:00]
A
You guys, this movie, Passenger. Oh my God, the jump scares all of it. It's so scary and it's like so creepy because I like horror movies that are set in a realistic setting. Like this could be any of us. You're on a road trip. You're with your loved one or your friend, and then you get in that weird space where maybe you're driving at night, it's dark. This is the perfect movie to freak you out about going on a road trip. But that's why you have to see it so you can be aware. Go see Pat Passenger only in theaters starting May 22nd. Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door and they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com they have an incredible line of cannabis gummies and you can get 20% off your first order@mood.com with free promo code Juicy Crimes. So forget the one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to a mood that you're looking for. My favorite is Sleepy Time Advanced Gummies because this is for a mind soothing calm each night. It is one of their best sellers and I can see why. I just have some times when my mind just doesn't turn off or I'm stressed about something the next day. But most importantly, I need a good night's slee and I have found this has really worked perfectly. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a hundred dollar day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code juicycrimes. So head over to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo code Juicy Crimes when you check out to save 20% off your first try it today@mood.com did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door and they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com they have an incredible line of cannabis gummies and you can get 20% off your first order@mood.com with promo code Juicy Crimes. So forget the one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to a mood that you're looking for. My favorite is Sleepy Time Advanced Gummies because this is for a mind soothing calm each night. It is one of their best sellers and I can see why. I just have some times when my mind just doesn't turn off or I'm stressed about something the next day. But most importantly, I need a good night's sleep and I have found this has really worked perfectly. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a hundred dollar day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code juicycrimes. So head over to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo Code Juicy Crimes when you check out to save 20% off first order. Try it today@mood.com. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I have a crime queen in this space. You guys love her, you follow her. She has such great shows she's been on. Juicy Scoop. Annie Elise, welcome back to Juicy Crime.
- [04:04]
B
Hey, thanks for having me.
- [04:07]
A
Oh my gosh. So there's a couple crimes that I definitely want to talk to you about that I know you have great knowledge of. Actually, let's first start with a brand new Netflix doc of a story that I started to watch and right away I was like, damn, I already know this story. Do you ever have that happen?
- [04:32]
B
Fortunately, far too often. Whereas blueprint for exactly what I know is gonna happen.
- [04:37]
A
Yeah, it's like. Or you like remember it. Like you covered it already and you remembered it, but maybe you don't remember the woman's name. And that is the case of Moriah. And it's like two hour or one. It's not, thank God it's not multiple episodes. I like it when they get it done. But it is such an interesting case and I know you have knowledge of it if you want to just kind of start out and I'll just interject of of to like get people into it.
- [05:09]
B
Yeah, I haven't watched the Netflix documentary myself yet, but I did cover this case extensively a couple of years ago when it happened and it's pretty wild. It's this young woman named Mariah Wilson, I believe is her last name. And she was very big in the cycling world, you know, incredibly talented. She Was a professional cyclist. She had a lot of good friends. And there was this guy Colin, who she hit it off with. They casually dated a little bit. I don't know if they casually date or if maybe it was like friends with benefits type of thing, some situation like that. But he had this girlfriend, Caitlin Armstrong. And so it was kind of this weird, like, not a full love triangle, because he would text Mariah that he wanted to hang out, but he had her programmed in his phone under a different name, which is obviously shady. Caitlyn was very jealous, and she was. She found out that they had, you know, more of a connection going on. And so one day, Mariah, one night, I should say Mariah's roommate comes home, who she lives with, and she found Mariah on the ground after being shot to death. And what was so interesting with this case is that immediately people started looking into Caitlyn, who was the girlfriend at the time of his, and she fled to, I believe it was Costa Rica. Got full facial plastic surgery to look like somebody else. They had been tracking her as well. And I believe it was her sister's passport that she ended up using to gain access into Costa Rica. They finally catch her months later after it seemed like she just flew, you know, fell off the radar and, yeah, had full plastic surgery. She was a yoga instructor. They brought her back. She was tried for the murder and convicted.
- [06:48]
A
Thank you for doing the summary because now I want to, like, really step through it, which is so interesting. Well, the girl Mariah was only 25 years old, and she was just a natural delight. She was naturally pretty. She was into this. She had the best friend that she was staying at her house in Austin and, you know, lovely parents and just like a perfect life. And, yeah, she meets this guy and, like, it was on and off. And they actually got her either diaries or her notes or something. And they shared that in the documentary where, like, any girl, she's kind of venting to her friend who goes by Cash, being like, I don't know. I haven't heard from Colin at all today. It's like, I don't even know if I want to, like, if what this is or what I should do or it's just annoying because, you know, one minute he seems all nice, another time, you know, like this typical type of stuff. And. But at the. What was interesting is, so he's. He's dating this girl and they have this business, the Caitlin Armstrong. So he's into his cycling thing, but he's kind of like, says, I, you're going to do better in this than I am. Like, you could, like, really become, like, a professional cyclist. And then I assume those people, like any sport nowadays could get sponsorships and make money and all that. And he's, like, into it, but he kind of knows, like, he's not gonna really, like, you know, be. What was the one with the one testicle? Armstrong. Armstrong, yeah. Which is interesting that Caitlin Armstrong is the one who murders the cyclist. I never. It's like, it's just weird. And so he. So it's kind. It's kind of interesting, like, that. That he has sort of, like, some, like, insecurities about that. A. Then he and Caitlyn Armstrong, who he's gotten a relationship with, they have this company that's kind of like. I mean, if you could think of anything more Austin than making those big streamline, like, van life places that you live in, like, the air. Yeah. The Airstreams. Making it all. Yeah. Making it all hipster cool. That you're just, you know, you don't really have to work. You just work at the coffee shop a few hours and cycle your bike around Austin. And, like. And so he. He says that they had issues because she would see his phone. And so he was like. And she knew about her, and she was probably like, 33 and she's 25, so there might have been a little age jealousy in that, that she was a younger woman. And then. So that's when he changes her name to this other name in his phone so he could still talk to her. But Caitlin, you know, was smart and had all the passwords and knew everything. So that day, he does reach out to her the few days before, like, she's not hearing from him anymore. She's like, okay, that ship has sailed. And then he's like, yeah, let's talk. And he. I don't. I really don't think this last day, I. They. He said that last day they did not have sex or anything. I think they knew that also from examining her. Right.
- [09:58]
B
Yeah, but I think they did. I mean, I assume previously. I think that. Oh, I think they definitely had previously, because if I remember correctly, he and Caitlyn had had a little bit of time where they would, like, not on and off reg, but where there was a break. And that's when he and Mariah were connected in a more romantic way, which is what led her to be so jealous and, you know, watching over his shoulder and his every move. But at this point, when, yeah. He asks Mariah to meet up, they say that he says, and it has been said that they didn't hook up or they didn't sleep together. But if I'm remembering correctly, I do think that there was something that happened or it was more than just friendly because it was later at night. He had lied about where he was going to Caitlyn. And like, yeah, this is what they
- [10:41]
A
do in the dock. So they. It's a really hot day in Austin. It's like August in Austin, or whenever it was, it was hot summer. And they go and eat at this, like, place. And then there's like, this, like, hip public pool that people can go to. So they're like, we'll go to the pool, get something to eat. And they show him, like, the surveillance camera of the little restaurant with her. And they. He gets a text from Caitlin where he, like, writes her back, like, whatever. He says, I'm not. He's clearly not telling the truth. But at that point, probably, you know, knows where he is. She probably has tracker on the phone and she's, like, following him. And she's, like, following him. So then he, you know, they show all their surveillance camera on the doc. And so at, like, through a neighbor's ring camera, whatever. You see that he drops her off. Off. He has his motorcycle and he drops her off. And then the reason they caught Caitlyn is because they also saw where the car was and that her car was going back and forth and that it was around at that time. And then she, when questioned about it, she, oh, this is really good. This is what I really like. Okay. So first they bring in. I love, like, confession, like the tiny confessional rooms and with the camera in the corner. Yeah. So first they bring him in, and he's like, I have no idea who did this, you know, and then they're like, well, do you have a gun? And he's like, yes, I have a gun, but I've never shot it. And I'm like, that's so weird. I don't own a gun. I've never bought a gun. I just thought that was weird that you buy a gun and not even be trained in it or go to a training facility.
- [12:34]
B
Right.
- [12:34]
A
And then he says, well, you know, then he asked about the girlfriend, and he's like, yeah, she has a gun, too. We both have guns.
- [12:42]
B
Was it. I. If. If I'm remembering correctly, I think that there was a birthday gift involving a gun or some sort of gift. Maybe he gives me something. It is weird if my husband was like, here's a gun for your birthday get out of my face. Like, scratch.
- [12:57]
A
Such a weird gift. So they each had a gu.
- [13:00]
B
And then.
- [13:02]
A
And then he's like, well, like, who? Where? You know, who drives his car? And basically they reveal to him, like, we think it's Caitlyn was involved.
- [13:13]
B
Excuse me.
- [13:14]
A
God bless you. God bless you.
- [13:16]
B
Sweet.
- [13:17]
A
That we think that Caitlyn's involved and he's just like, curled up on the ground. We see just the cameras from the back of him, and you just know he's just like, what the hell? And I just think his situation is. So he should be the poster boy for fuckboys around the world.
- [13:40]
B
Yeah. It's like, this is why you don't around. And you already know what happens when you're like, yeah.
- [13:46]
A
I mean, in my day, we called them players, now they call them boys. But, like, why you don't, you know, have other chicks on the side just to feed your ego, like, what the fuck are you doing? You know? And so I think he's just like, oh, my God, you know? And so then the cute female detective who's, you know, in her cop outfit and everything, but she's very girly, she brings in Caitlin, and, you know, they know Caitlyn fucking did it at this point, her car is there, like, her
- [14:20]
B
teeth, like, past the front yard, like, scoping it out a couple of different times around the time of the murder.
- [14:26]
A
Yes. And so then the cop is like, so Caitlin, I'm Detective Melissa, or whatever her name is. And she's like, so, hey, like, this is crazy story. And we know that, like, you were. You're dating this guy who I guess had some kind of situation going on with Mariah. And so we just really want to get your side of the story. Like, we just want to hear your side of the story so that we can, like, put it together. Because we always know there's, like, three sides to a story. And, like, you know how guys are. Like, she's totally trying to get her, like, talked. Caitlin's like, yeah, I think I want an attorney now. That's totally fine. That's totally fine. You can have an attorney. But then if, you know, I just want to get your side of the story. Because if you give me your side of the story, then we can, like, put this to bed and figure out, like, why, why, you know, why you were driving past the house. Maybe it was just out of curiosity. Maybe you just. You had a female intuition. Like, we just, you know, we just want to know, like, your side. And she just keeps going, yeah, I think I'D like an attorney.
- [15:37]
B
Yeah. Which is like, I totally get asked for an attorney. So that.
- [15:40]
A
Yeah, she's like, I totally get that.
- [15:42]
B
That would have been admissible.
- [15:43]
A
Yeah, this girl's not an idiot, but she's really trying. So then they have to let her go home, and then they go home and then they both go out of the house because she's like, I don't want to talk about this here. I feel like the house is being bugged. So they go, the two of them go out and talk or whatever. And then she goes and gets another phone. Sells the car to, like, CarMax gets another phone. And you see her, like, loading up the new phone, which I wouldn't even know how to do that, honestly. Like, my son and husband do, like, everything for me.
- [16:21]
B
Tech is hard, honestly.
- [16:24]
A
Get a whole new phone. And so then. And then she goes and they're like, oh, my God, she's gone. And she goes to visit her sister. And then she takes her sister's passport, which is how she was able to get on the plane to Costa Rica.
- [16:38]
B
I think her sister gave her the passport, personally.
- [16:41]
A
I do, too. But, like, how do you tell your sister, I need the passport? Because I'm still like, I want to know. Did she tell her sister? I'm in the worst. I had the worst fucking luck of my life. The girl that my living boyfriend was kind of fucking around with was found shot to death. And because, like, my. A car that looks like mine was around there, I just. They think I did it. And I just need to get the fuck out of here because I am not going to spend one day in a disgusting prison for something I didn't do. And then the sister's like, here. Or do you think she went and told the sister, you're very close to your sister.
- [17:26]
B
I'm very close to my sister as you are. Yeah.
- [17:30]
A
So do you think that she did say, how could you forgive. How could you forgive your sister if she really went and said this fucking bitch? Even if she really blamed her and was like, this fucking cycling bitch wanted to ruin my life. I warned her over and over again because they said there was a moment where Caitlyn called her and was like, hi, I know you've been talking to Colin. And just so you know, we are still dating. There was this moment where so she could have been like, you have knowledge that I'm still in the picture. Why are you meeting him for a burger and a swim? You know, so like, if she told her sister. And I just. I got my Gun. And I was like, I'm gonna clock her. And I did. And now I don't care. Like, as the sister and you're having her. Like, that day, I think, you know, the sister had kids. Like, I just need to know. I need to know from the sister what she was told. You guys, I just saw the trailer for Passenger, and we've all taken a road trip, right? You've driven, and then you get in that weird space where maybe you're driving at night, it's dark, and the trailer starts out, and this guy's pulled over with his friend, and he's just, you know, taking a piss. And oh, my God, the jump scares all of it. It's so scary. And it's, like, so creepy because it's kind of like this weird passenger is a demonic presence. And I do like scary movies, especially when it's like the opposite of St. Christopher, who's the patron saint of travelers. You know how I'm into saints. This would be the demonic version of that. And there's just the mysterious symbols shown throughout the trailer I think are really juicy. And I'm very excited to watch this. I'm definitely gonna have to go and see it with a few people, but that's what is fun about seeing a scary movie. So bring someone that likes to be squeezed and go see Passenger only in theaters starting May 22nd. Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods, and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com. they have it in an incredible line of cannabis gummies. And you can get 20 off your first order@mood.com with promo code Juicy Crimes. So forget the one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to a mood that you're looking for. My favorite is Sleepy Time Advanced Gummies, because this is for a mind soothing calm each night. It is one of their best sellers, and I can see why. I just have some times when my mind just doesn't turn off or I'm stressed about something the next day. But most importantly, I need a good night's sleep. And I have found this has really worked perfectly. Best of all, not only is every mood product backed by a $100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code Juicy Crimes. So head over to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo Code Juicy Crimes when you check out to save 20% off your first order. Try it today@mood.com did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door and they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com they have an incredible line of cannabis gummies and you can get 20% off your first order@mood.com with promo code Juicy Crimes. So forget the one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to a mood that you're looking for. My favorite is Sleepy Time Advanced Gummies because this is for a mind soothing calm each night. It is one their best sellers and I can see why. I just have some times when my mind just doesn't turn off or I'm stressed about something the next day. But most importantly I need a good night's sleep and I have found this has really worked perfectly. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a hundred dollar day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code juicy crimes. So head over to mood.com find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo Code Juicy Crimes when you check out to save 20% off your first order. Try it today@mood.com so here's what I think.
- [22:44]
B
I think that either she told her sister like look, I made a really bad mistake. I'm in like some hot water right now. I need to just get away because I know that she and her sister were very close. Or I think it's possible that maybe she did lie and say they're just after me. But I think regardless what the story was that was shared with her, I believe that the sister knew what the truth was. Because think about it too. If your sister or my sister came to me and said that, I'd be like, well then where the hell is your car? Why did you sell it? If you have nothing to hide, why are you trying to go out of the country like, I. I am very confident that there was knowledge before she gave her her passport as to. I know what's going on. I know the truth of the matter. We look alike. Take this. I believe they were in New York at the time. Cause I know Caitlin was spotted. I think it was at Newark on the footage at the airport when she was fleeing. And there was the manhunt for her. And I think that she passed that over. Maybe Caitlyn didn't share with her all the details because she didn't want her to be complicit and get charged and aiding and abetting or whatever it may be. But, I mean, her sister would have to be the dumbest person on the planet to not actually understand what was happening in that situation.
- [23:50]
A
There's a lot. I also think if you really are capable of murder and believe that somehow you're justified in doing it, and it's planned. You weren't screaming at her, and you didn't catch the two of them in bed and then saw the gun in the corner and grabbed them. Like, you had to drive over there. You had to bring the gun with you. So it's total premed. Premedication, meditated. But what if they were sisters and they were close, but because she's a master manipulator, she went and saw her sister and she either said, no, it's not what the news is reporting. It's not even a big deal. Like, it's this weird guy there. It's whatever. And I am just going. I'm just gonna go to Hawaii or what, I'm gonna go to Costa Rica. And then just stole her passport without her knowing. But I think I could easily. I could. I think I could go to my sister's house and find her passport without her knowing and take it out of her drawer.
- [24:52]
B
She was there for a couple of days. And then even after they were still saying, we think that she moved through New York, we have her on the cameras. And her sister, to my knowledge, never came forward to the authorities. Like, hey, look, I'm seeing this on the news. My passport is missing. I think it was my sister. That's why I think that they were in cahoots in some sort of way, maybe in a carefully crafted way, but 1000%, her sister had to know what was going on and help Caitlyn get out of there. Which would be tough. I mean, not that I would ever cover him for my sister. But imagine, like, yeah, if Amy came to me right now and was like, I did something really bad. I really regret it. I need to get the hell out of here. We obviously look very similar. Like, can I have your passport? I would never be like, yeah, here you go. I would obviously, like, she would need to face the consequences for what she did.
- [25:36]
A
Right. Because first she has to buy the ticket. It.
- [25:38]
B
Yeah. I would know what she was doing. I would know what happened. I wouldn't, like, bury my head in
- [25:42]
A
the sand because she has to buy the ticket in the sister's name and then go. And, I mean, I feel like now you absolutely could not get away with it. The way you have the visual thing at the TSA where they, like, do your face.
- [25:58]
B
That's true. They, like, scan your eyes. You don't even need your ID anymore. It, like, scans you somehow else in the system.
- [26:03]
A
But this was, like, 20 years ago.
- [26:05]
B
They look. Yeah. It wasn't that long ago. And if I tried to use Amy's passport right now, I bet you I could. I re. I really think I could just. Because we do look pretty similar. But that was also. I think you should just. That was around Covid.
- [26:21]
A
I think next time you guys travel together, okay. Like, you're on a trip together. I think that as an experiment, we swap passports. Do it. Just do it. And then if they go, that's not. You just go, oh, my God. We. Okay, sorry. And you know what?
- [26:37]
B
I will do that. We are traveling to Vegas for crime con at the end of May, and that is what I'm gonna do. Yeah.
- [26:43]
A
Then when you talk about it, you can say, heather made me. And then you could say, oh, no. Like. Like, you're sharing a bag, and you're like, oh, I just put it in the wrong bag. And this is me, and this is her. We're sisters. And the guy will go, fine. But then we'll know that, like, actually, it could work. Yeah.
- [27:00]
B
What? The system actually tracks. I don't know, though. Maybe this is bad, because maybe it's giving people advice on how to, like, get through TSA undetected.
- [27:08]
A
Well, I mean, so many. So many times when they're like. When you. It's like a face recognition, and I'm like, I don't know if it'll look. I'm hungover. I look awful. I have no makeup on. I'm like. Even if it's like, you know, your face recognition, like, on the computer, that I'm like, I don't know. I look pretty awful right now. And then I'm always wondering, like, with the plastic surgery, like, does. How far. How much plastic surgery can you get where it won't recognize your face anymore? Because then she goes over. So she goes to Costa Rica and she gets a pretty. Not a good nose job. It was like.
- [27:42]
B
Not a good nose job.
- [27:42]
A
It was like a botched. Yeah, but she was really cute before, so it, like, must have broke her heart, huh?
- [27:49]
B
It made her look different, though. She. She definitely make her look different.
- [27:53]
A
That's why I think she. I think she probably had to ask for something. They were probably like, you have a really good nose. Why do you want one? She's just like, I want it perkier and weird because, like, from the side, like, what?
- [28:02]
B
She's.
- [28:03]
A
I was like, oh, Jesus, what the fuck is that? It was like a really, like, weird one. It's so.
- [28:08]
B
Yeah, it was very narrow and then, like, kind of went up, like, had a big slope. Yeah, yeah.
- [28:13]
A
And so then she's there for, like, a month. And then this is the most brilliant thing. They put an ad in some paper or some local listing saying, we're looking for a yoga instructor. Because they knew that she was a yoga instructor and she would, like, want a job. And I'm like, I can't believe that she fell for that. Like, I would be like, listen, I. I'm all for, like, creating a new life when you're on the run for murder. Okay. But I definitely think you should probably hold off on getting a job for, like, at least a year.
- [28:49]
B
Yeah. And if you're going to change your appearance, you should probably change your career path, your, you know, your identity as best as you can, your hobbies, so that you look like a totally different person. But she just was immersing herself in the surf culture, the yoga culture. I think she was living in a hostel or a variation of something like that at the time, too. And that's how they ended up finding the papers and the passport, like, tucked away. The. Whatever. The manager guy or whatever found it. But she. I thought, yeah, she was there for quite a bit of time while they were looking for her and, yeah, fully wonder. Went plastic surgery and thought that she was going to get away with this. Which. That's something that I had a problem with too, is there was never a moment, all the way up until the trial that she seemed even the least bit remorseful. Not even like a tiny little droplet of remorse.
- [29:36]
A
I think that it. It's so interesting because it's like one of my favorite old movies. And this is like, movie's like 35 years old, but it was so good. It's called Black Widow. And Deborah Winger plays this FBI agent, and they're like, you need to infiltrate and find this Black Widow. Cause she's killed, like, three men. And every time she goes to, like, another rich place and she changes her looks and her accent just enough that she assimilates into the town. So she'll be, like a Dallas debutante type girl, and then, like, find this guy, and then she finds her in Hawaii. And I'm like, oh, I just think that would be so fun to just, like, go to a whole new city. I mean, you couldn't do it in today's world, but. And just see if you could, like, infiltrate a town with, like, and. And come up with a whole backstory and whatever and just start a whole new life. Because it's like your own witness protection
- [30:31]
B
plan, you know, like every Lifetime movie out there where somebody goes on the run. Yeah.
- [30:37]
A
So they do catch her, and she. Yeah, she goes to trial. And she really had no remorse or any kind of excuse. Her defense was that they just didn't have enough evidence. But, you know, it was. The bullets were there. She owned the gun.
- [31:02]
B
Yeah.
- [31:02]
A
Girlfriend. I mean, they had enough evidence that, like, no, nobody actually saw her on camera, like, shoot her. But it was. So then they, like, show him who has to come in, and he's just, like a shell of himself. He looks like he's aged, like 15 years. He's skinny, and at the end, he's just, like. Didn't really want to show his face that much. And he goes, yeah, I just, like, have a very small, lonely life. I just, like, tinker on these, like, mechanical things. And I mean, it's just like, yeah, he. He just had an easy life. He had a girlfriend who managed all the money and made the money, and he could, like, run these little Airstreams. And then he got to, like, ride his bike around, and he got to have, like, a side chick. And it's not all cracking up to me.
- [31:57]
B
Had. I think he had some sponsorship opportunities, like, very light touch back then, too. And things started getting ripped away from him because nobody wanted any association with him. Not because of, like, the morality clause of it all or whatever it may be, but because at that point, early on, too, people weren't sure if he had knowledge of what Caitlyn had done, what his involvement could have been if he helped her flee because of the guns being both of theirs. And I think, again, one being a gift from him. Like, there was a lot of just kind of smoke around him that I think people didn't Want to go near?
- [32:28]
A
Yeah. It is just. It's such an interesting thing when it's a woman who is just overwhelmed with jealousy. And the case it reminded me of was the case of Janaire. Very different name. Gennar Gerardeau. And this story is this woman was 47. Her husband was in his 40s as well. They were married a long time, but they never had kids. And he. He got some job to, like, work at some university or something. And so they were like, okay, we'll move there. And his boss was this younger woman. She was 33. And they start having an affair. And Janaire is very suspicious, and she's like, you know, and, like, after the affair or whatever, she finds that she's like, we're still gonna try to make it work. And she had, like, bugged his car so she could, like, hear the two of them talk and do whatever. And so she was really, really well aware of, like, that they had had this affair. And then I know I'm, like, not remembering all the bits, but she ends up going to Meredith's home, and she takes, like. Gets her phone, kills. I think she kills her first. Then she gets her phone and writes her husband to tell him, come see me.
- [34:07]
B
That's diabolical.
- [34:08]
A
Come. Come meet me. You know, like, I want to see you. His name was Mark. And then she kills herself.
- [34:17]
B
Oh, my God.
- [34:18]
A
And so then when he gets there, he sees both his wife.
- [34:23]
B
Wow.
- [34:24]
A
And his lover dead.
- [34:28]
B
And it was like, this story just
- [34:30]
A
fascinated me so much, and I'm like, this probably isn't getting. I mean, it did get stories written about it, but I'm like, it's probably not going to get as much of, like, the date lines in the 2020s, because we know who did it. Like, there isn't, like, when, you know, sometimes, like, these murder suicides, you're like, oh, my God, that's a crazy, like, juicy story. That'll get covered. I'm like, well, no, it really won't, because we know who did it. Like, the way that these crime shows are done is they want to take the audience in. So you're, like, wondering, you know, oh, was.
- [35:02]
B
Can you figure it out? Are you Right? Yeah.
- [35:05]
A
Yeah. Was this. It? Like, has to be this murder mystery thing, and this is not a mystery, but it was. Again, it was such a. I feel like the man is sort of in the similar situation in that they're cheating and playing both women and being deceptive any length of time then caused this tragedy, you know, and it's like, there's always the story of also the woman whose lover kills her husband. And it seems like then she's always trying to prove, I, I never told him to kill my husband. I, you know, and then he's like, no, you told me that he was beating you, so I had to go kill him or whatever. And, yeah, that, like, here you're the cheater. And whether it was intentional and you wanted them to do it. But in these cases with women, it seems like it's just a dumb boy that's, like, left with this incredible guilt and like, horrific thing.
- [36:05]
B
Yeah. Or it's like the Betty Broderick case where she takes them both out.
- [36:10]
A
Yeah. And she said when she went into the room, she was like, I went in there so that he could see me and everything he did to me and kill myself. And then I just decided to kill them both instead.
- [36:21]
B
Like, do you think that that was her intent? You think she always went there to murder them?
- [36:27]
A
I think she went there to murder them.
- [36:28]
B
That's what I think too.
- [36:29]
A
But it was really weird in doing that one. And we, I mean, it's always my favorite one to talk about. But, like, I do think that what was strange leading up to the murder is that she had a boyfriend. She wasn't a lonely spinster. She had a boyfriend and they were together that night. They had a dinner party that night with, like, their friends. And like, she, I mean, at least in the movie, like, he might have even been still over. Maybe not, but she wakes up early in the morning and she's just like, I'm gonna. I can't take it.
- [37:07]
B
And.
- [37:08]
A
But a lot of, like, the legal blows that he had done that really were like legal warfare. Like, it was really awful.
- [37:15]
B
Yeah. He was an asshole.
- [37:16]
A
What he put her through, divorce wise, most of it had, like, settled, so you almost think that she would have done it earlier. And then the thought was that there wasn't anything more to fight over and there wasn't any more ties to him and she didn't have any more chances in court to see him and to fight back or be a victim. Like, it was stunned.
- [37:42]
B
Yeah.
- [37:44]
A
At that point. Yeah. And then she had stolen her daughter's key to their house weeks prior. And that's what also made it that. Because she tried to say it wasn't premeditated. Like, I woke up and I was just like, I'm gonna go over there and kill myself and show him. And then, and then I panicked when he woke up, and that's when I shot them both. And. And Therefore it's not premeditated. But I mean it was.
- [38:12]
B
Yeah, I think it was definitely.
- [38:14]
A
Yeah, definitely.
- [38:16]
B
Focus features in Blumhouse present Obsession. When I have a crush on a guy no one knows. Be careful. I wish Nikki love me more than anyone in the entire world. Who you wish for? Obsession is 96 fresh on rotten tomatoes. I love you so, so, so, so much. It's blood soaked nightmare fuel.
- [38:37]
A
Brooke, I suppose you put on her.
- [38:39]
B
You have been warned. Obsession. Rated R under 17. Animated without parent. Only in theaters May 15 with special engagements in Dolby. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities.
- [38:55]
A
So do like I did and have
- [38:57]
B
one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3
- [39:07]
A
month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com I want to talk to you about this Hawaiian case.
- [39:21]
B
Speaking of premeditated. Yeah, that's a perfect segue into this next.
- [39:25]
A
Yeah, why don't you, why don't you explain this because this is happening right now. So it might be concluded by the time this airs. But the, the stuff from the trial is just like fascinating.
- [39:38]
B
It is. So this is a case that's happening in Hawaii and it's Ariel Koenig and her husband, Gerdhardt Koenigse. And I believe he's 46, she's 36 or maybe 34, 46, something like that. But they got married back in 2018. It's his second marriage. He was married, he got married, gosh, a decade or so earlier to a sex worker that he had met and they had children together and then they had a tumultuous relationship. They filed for divorce. She ended up getting custody of the children and. But she hasn't spoken out about anything about their relationship about this. It's, she's kind of, I need to
- [40:14]
A
go back to, I need to go back to the doctor marrying the sex worker because he's the doctor. Right.
- [40:19]
B
I, at the time, he must have been a doctor at the time or he was going through school for it and he, she was 20 when they met and he was young as well. This was probably 18 years ago or something like that.
- [40:31]
A
Did this take Place in Hawaii as well?
- [40:33]
B
No, he grew up in. Was it Philadelphia? Yeah, somewhere in Pennsylvania, I believe. He grew up, and then he had gone to school at SDSU to get his degree, and he. And then they ended up divorcing in 2014. He met Ariel through work. They got married in 2018, I believe. Yes. I might be getting my date somewhere along that timeline. So they've been married for not a huge amount of time, but a few years. They. And then they started. They. He's an anesthesiologist. She's a nuclear engineer. Incredibly intelligent. They had decided to move to Hawaii a couple of years ago. They're, you know, living their best life. Things are great. However, around the fall of 2024, they started having some issues within their marriage. He accused her of having an affair. She was having an emotional affair, which she admitted to. They started going to couples counseling together. They had two children together as well as well, at this point. And then he had some children from his previous marriage. So they start going to couples counseling, like, around the holidays in 2024, spilling over into 2025. Then on her birthday in March, he's like, let's go for a hike on this beautiful lookout trail. Let's spend some time together. Which, according to her, she says that she felt like the counseling had been working, that they were rebuilding their marriage, things were getting better. So they go out on her birthday for this hike in this very scenic area, but also very dangerous trail where it has signs that says, you know, professional hikers only, or, like, at your own risk, things like that. And according to her, when they got to the top, he said, hey, let's take a selfie together right over here, which was, like, cliffside and where there was a very steep drop. And she's like, no, no. Like, I don't feel comfortable doing that. Which. That enraged him. So he started pushing her toward the cliff, being like, no, no, come on. Like, why are you acting like this? We're just gonna take a picture together. So she fought back and pushed him off, but then he got on top of her again. Allegedly at this point, took a rock, hit her over the head 10 times with this rock, and then allegedly went to grab two syringes that he had packed with him in his Nike fanny pack and tried to inject her with something.
- [42:49]
A
What?
- [42:49]
B
That was unclear, undetermined. But he's an anesthesiologist. He, of course, has access to tons of medication. And later on, they ended up recovering that Nike. The Nike fanny pack at his house. And there was Propofol inside of it, like a vial of it. And so he had tried to inject her with the syringes. After bashing her head in, she starts screaming. She gets away from him. Two hikers find her and call 91 1. He takes off on foot. And this whole manhunt goes on for hours during of which he calls his son, who I believe Emil is 19 years old, and he FaceTimes him. And according to the prosecution, he's saying his goodbyes. A confession, saying, I just tried to kill Ariel. I'm, you know, he was covered in blood at the time. He could tell his dad was in, you know, disarray. And he is apparently saying he's going to take his own life as well or something to that effect. They end up finding him around 6pm and they take him into custody. His story switches and he says, first of all, no, that was. His defense is saying, that wasn't a confession. It was a mental health crisis after what had happened, he was going to take his own life. But they argue what really happened up there was not him trying to kill her and it was not premeditated, but rather they were talking about the affair. She admitted to it. They talked some more. They got into an argument, a, quote, marital spat that escalated. And then he became defensive because she tried to push him. And a fight ensued, which the prosecution is of course being like, well, no, there's three different methods in which you tried to kill her, which show not only premeditation with the syringes, but also that, like, this was attempted murder. You tried to push her off the cliff with the selfie ruse. You tried to hit her over the head 10 times. Then you, you know, allegedly tried to inject her with this thing where his defense team is saying, no, it was just a fight that escalated. And what's been interesting in the trial is I personally think it's pretty cut and dry what happened here. I think it's very obvious. But he took the stand, which not a lot of people were thinking he would. I wasn't too surprised by that, only because I think at this point, it was a Hail Mary. Everybody was. I think the writing's on the wall for what really happened. So at this point, he had nothing to lose but try to push his narrative a little bit further and elicit some sympathy on the stand. But then his son also took the stand. And what was weird is like he didn't even identify him as dad in the courtroom. He called him the defendant, as though he was trying to create that boundary and distance himself. And it's just been a very interesting trial because you have these two people who are spinning completely different stories and narratives as to what happened. Totally different versions of events, and both standing firm in what they say happened.
- [45:35]
A
Well, yes. I mean, I've seen some clips and things from the court trial. And you know, it. When it was like, no, they're going to say that she, you know, was hitting him. And then the attorney was like, okay, you're this. You weigh this much. She weighs this much. She's smaller, she's lighter. And so if you. So she's tried to hit you, even if you believed it, then at one point, he's on top of her with a rock. So even if she, your wife, is throwing chairs at you, like Taylor, you know, Frankie Paul or something, then you would, like, grab her hands or something. Or once you have her on the ground, you'd be like, stop it. You're acting crazy. Like, stop it. You wouldn't then feel that in order to defend yourself from her smacking you that you needed to take a heavy rock and bash it over her head numerous times. And that's when the two females, and I believe one or both of them were nurses, thank God, like, heard the screaming and then saw her with her bloody head and they had something to wrap it with. I just.
- [46:46]
B
She was in bad shape when they found her. And there the pictures are out there. She was so bloodied. She was in bad shape. And to your point, too, I mean, most people will bring a granola bar on a hike. Maybe you don't bring two syringes or even one syringe of some unknown medication. So to me, it's like that already right there. Illustrates premeditation. You brought something to subdue her, to be able to overpower her when that thing didn't. When the cliff selfie didn't work, where you could accidentally push her over and say that she slipped, then you escalated to the rock, then you tried to inject her when she continued to fight back. I mean, there were multiple different methods that had been explored here.
- [47:26]
A
I want to get into the psyche of him. Like, I didn't know that he married a sex worker. And I'm not putting her down as a sex worker. But it's interesting. This girl he marries that maybe he had hired or whatever, that's who he gets married and has children with. And it doesn't work out. Why? Because at a certain point, he could no longer control her. Like, is there something about control? And is there something about sometimes doctors as wonderful as they are, there's a lot are that who are very narcissistic, that have God complex. And so the fact that she had cheated on him, but then she thought things were going okay. So I. It's like, it's weird, like why you decided that day, like, I'm gonna end it. When you, you know, you didn't break up right away when you found out you're going to therapy, it seems to be working out. I just wonder what was it that made him think, she's never gonna love me the way I want, or I'm still so jealous over this guy that I have to just end it with her.
- [48:34]
B
So I definitely do think that there is an element of control just in his history and him overall. And I try. When I was researching his first marriage, we tried to get like the divorce decree, everything, trying to figure out what had happened. And it has been very quiet and it even was back then. But there was something within that marriage enough to where he did sign over custody and it would. And he had to pay her a certain amount. And it seemed as though everything then would remain relatively hush hush. There were some allegations that he was controlling, but nothing that she ever had spoken out about that was concrete. So then fast forward to this marriage where she's 10 years, is his junior, which isn't the worst age gap, you know, we've seen much bigger. But she has this emotional affair. He's starting to lose control of her, even though they're in counseling and it seems to be rebuilding and going a little bit.
- [49:23]
A
Well.
- [49:23]
B
I believe she even testified when she took the stand that they hadn't been sexually intimate since December, which this was in March. So months had gone by since they had even been sexually connected in any sort of way. So I think maybe he felt like he was losing control. Although she thought couples counseling was working and that they were rebuilding. Maybe it wasn't as fast or as true as he thought that it was and that things weren't back where it was. And he thought he was losing grasp of her regardless. And so he was going to do what he wanted to do to get her to eliminate her so that he wouldn't have another expensive divorce, so that he wouldn't have, you know, any stains on him, which there's a term I had realized or learned about through all of this, I don't know if you've heard about it, called Alpine divorce. And it's this, it's this growing trend like term that people are using on social media and just to Describe things where. Similar to the Susan Powell case or other cases where a spouse or a partner.
- [50:22]
A
Susan, wait, she's the one who.
- [50:24]
B
They haven't found her body, but they believe that her husband killed her, whether it was a mineshaft or something else. And then he took the life of himself and their children. Like when he went to a supervised visit, he blew up the house.
- [50:37]
A
Oh, yeah, that.
- [50:39]
B
And that she had the weird creepy father in law who would always videotape her and try to make advances. It's a very odd case. And so Alpine divorce basically is a term that refers to spouses or partners who lure their significant other to these dangerous hiking trails or cliffs or excursions to where then instead of getting a traditional divorce, it's, you know, and not instead of committing murder, even though it is. They stage what looks like to be an accident. So it gets them the divorce without the murder situation happening. And it's called album.
- [51:12]
A
It gets them free. Gets them free from their spouse.
- [51:15]
B
Yeah, because of the elements. It's called an Alpine divorce. Like, oh, I'm gonna lure you up here. I don't want to get an actual divorce from you, but I don't want to go to jail for murder, but I'm going to push you off this cliff and make it look like an accident. Or we're going to go on this excursion. You're going to fall off the boat or what was that one guy, Gabe, when they went on the honeymoon snorkeling thing and he took the gas mask off like things like that to where they make it look accidental while on these big excursions or hikes or outings.
- [51:40]
A
Okay, well, two things I, I do want to tell you about this other case that just popped up in my head. But I just explain the Susan Powell case again. So just.
- [51:53]
B
Susan Powell was married to. Gosh, what was his name? Name Chris Powell.
- [51:57]
A
Doesn't matter. Just.
- [51:58]
B
Yeah, they were married, they had some children together and she had. His dad was her father in law and very creepy. There were so many home videos where they'd be at, you know, a family dinner at the house. And he would be like camcordering because that's how old it was. And he would be like zooming in on her thigh or I think at one point he stole underwear from her drawer as well. And he had this very weird fixation with Susan to which she vocalized to her husband how uncomfortable it made her that, you know, she, I think had even spoken up to the father in law at one point. And there was just a Lot of toxicity. And I can't remember exactly why Susan, if she was leaving him or had threatened to file for divorce, I can't remember entirely. But they had gone out and they've never found her body. But they believe that it is believed Wiley was suspected that he had thrown her down a mine shaft or something like that. And at that point, for some reason he had lost custody. So it must. I can't remember. Maybe they did divorce, I can't remember. But anyway, on one of the supervisors visits, he, the CPS worker and they're like exchanging where he's coming into the house and she's leaving or whatever is happening and he locks himself in the house with the two kids and I think he blows up the house or he does something where he had locked the CPS worker out and she's calling, being like, he's not letting me in. It's a supervised visit and he takes the lives of his children and himself. And so then. And nobody knows what happened to Susan, where her body is, what the truth was. It's one that you can definitely go down the rabbit hole on, but it happened several years ago.
- [53:28]
A
So that's why they didn't have a father in law. Nothing?
- [53:31]
B
No, no.
- [53:33]
A
Oh my God. Well, there's a case right now that just came out yesterday out in the Bahamas and This couple, she's 56, her husband's like 60, and they took the dinghy to a restaurant or something and then they were going back on the dinghy to their yacht. But it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a yacht with like a staff. It was just like, you know, like a sailing yacht that they were staying on in the Bahamas. And then he said that she fell out of the boat, the little dinghy. And when she fell out of the dinghy she took the key with her.
- [54:12]
B
What?
- [54:12]
A
And so then he had to like paddle back to the shore or somebody in which then he reported what happened. And then they've been, you know, looking for her for 20 hours or whatever. I'm sure as we, if this story gets bigger, we'll know more. But you know, every comment was okay, you know, he did it. Like why does she have the key with her?
- [54:42]
B
And like did they ever find her? Have they found her?
- [54:46]
A
No. And I mean those, and they're like, oh, those seas can get rough. But I mean, no one was saying like it was rough seas. It's a little dinghy. You don't really fall out of a dinghy when there's two people and you're going from ashore to where your boat is anchored. So it sounds like an Alpine divorce, huh?
- [55:06]
B
Yeah. Wasn't there a case similar to that maybe like two or three years ago in, I want to say in upstate New York or somewhere where they were on a kayak and she went out with him on a kayak and it, and she said it flipped or capsized or something. There was something going on. I'd have to look it up. But yeah, similar stories where it's like, there's a kayak.
- [55:24]
A
No, there's a kayak story where she, I want to say she was like Russian or something.
- [55:29]
B
Yes.
- [55:31]
A
And they thought that she killed him and then like was like, oh, flipped over. But I managed to survive.
- [55:42]
B
Right. And it was like freezing cold temperatures or something. I can't remember all the details, but it reminds me of that.
- [55:49]
A
Yeah, but that's basically what you're saying, like when they, when they think it's that like. And it's just something extra sad about that because it's like if it's happening, you probably have a shitty marriage and your spouse is like, you know what I'd like to do with you, honey? Can we go on a little sunset cruise? Can we, you know, go on a kayak? Can we go on a lovely hike? And you think, okay, that maybe this is a fresh start. Maybe, you know, he really wants to spend time with me. And lo and behold, no, I'm going to push you up a cliff. I went to. Have you ever been to the Grand Canyon?
- [56:29]
B
No, I haven't. Which is so crazy because I live in Southern California. It's so close, I don't know why.
- [56:34]
A
So we went to the Grand Canyon. But like during winter when the kids were little and like my mother in law and stuff and it was kind of fun cause at one point we took like this little train and like it was like, we're going to the North Pole, whatever. But it was like cold. But anyway, so we looked at it and everything and then I like went into the gift store and of course I buy this book that's all about mysterious Grand Canyon deaths.
- [57:00]
B
What a thing to sell in the souvenir shop.
- [57:02]
A
Oh my God, you would have bought it too.
- [57:04]
B
1000.
- [57:06]
A
Like, this is. You're like, I don't need a T shirt.
- [57:08]
B
I don't hike. This is why I don't kayak. This is why I don't do outdoor activities. I'm not so not interested.
- [57:14]
A
I mean there were so many alpine divorce cases in that. There were so many that Were so weird. You know, some were simple things where, you know, someone really did get too close to the edge. And this is years ago before they made it even safer. But you know that that would happen back then very easily because you could just. They're gonna. Once they fall in that, you know, and then there's no way of knowing. And there was before any cameras and no one's to see it and. And then you're.
- [57:47]
B
Yeah, now there's like rail cams. There's people taking selfies. There's ways that you would be caught on video most of the time, but. Yeah, maybe not all the time, but it also kind of is like Barry Morphew a little bit. I don't know if you're familiar with that case, but Suzanne had gone missing. He said she went out on a bike ride and that she got attacked by a bobcat or something like that. Which now he's going to be going to trial for her murder. He really. Actually, she had a boyfriend. She was leaving him. There's evidence that he like, chased her around the yard because of the pings on her phone and shot her with a tranquilizer before killing her. And that case is one you could go down a rabbit hole on too. But similarly, like. Like tried to say that the elements were responsible.
- [58:27]
A
Wow. Wow. I just saw somewhere that we have a mountain lion problem now out where I live.
- [58:34]
B
Great.
- [58:35]
A
We have so many mountain lions are. Because they built this Annenberg Bridge so that the mountain lions didn't have to their sister anymore and could cross over to the bridge and meet some other mountain lions. Wait, it cost $87 billion.
- [58:49]
B
Hold on. They built a bridge so that the mountain lions could have more options and not have to. Like their cousin.
- [58:57]
A
Yeah, like not have to do incest.
- [58:59]
B
Why? What was. What was so like, not that it's okay to like have inbred mountain lions, but like, were they more dangerous if they're inbreds?
- [59:08]
A
Yeah, I guess they're getting pissed off or they just.
- [59:12]
B
I just want to offer them variety,
- [59:13]
A
you know, they would, I guess, you know, occasionally cross the street or the thing. But I've lived here my whole life and I never remember ever hearing a story that someone hit a mountain lion crossing the 101.
- [59:27]
B
No.
- [59:27]
A
So anyway, they build the bridge.
- [59:30]
B
I have a lot of coyotes and they.
- [59:32]
A
They build. We have coyotes too. Not as many where I live here, but the mountain lions are now a problem. And so they built the bridge. It's taken forever. $87 million and it's still not done. But now they're saying we have too many. So I want you to know that.
- [59:53]
B
Too many. Fountain couldn't. That 87.
- [59:56]
A
I guess they're like meeting like, they're, they, they're meeting like. You know, I remember I first saw it, it was like a problem like in the, like in. More in Hollywood. They like wanted to go into Hollywood or over to the Hollywood Hills and they were stuck on one side of the valley. So then anyway, I don't know why we had to have the bridge, but we have the bridge and we'll see what happens.
- [60:14]
B
I don't know anything about Bob.
- [60:16]
A
I'm just saying that might be the new, that might be the new thing. If they really take over. They might be like, yeah, she was eating mountain lion. You know, it wasn't me. The last one.
- [60:25]
B
Fair defense.
- [60:26]
A
Yeah, the last one I wanted to tell you about is. So this one was just on 48 hour mystery and it again is a very interesting one. So there's Guy, he's divorced twice, never had kids. He goes to his 30th high school reunion and falls in love with this girl there that he never, they never even talked when they were in high school. But they're both just like, you know, 53, pretty average looking. Life and lifestyles, the Midwest. And so she moves in with him and you know, he has like a decent house in whatever collection of guns and Star wars stuff and guitars and has like, it has a job with like a life insurance policy and. But nothing like amazing. And then her daughter comes along and the daughter's husband died and the daughter's like 30 or something and she's got a couple kids and she moves in with them and he, and he is totally into it. He likes being called grandpa, everything's fine and he's heavy and he's diabetic and he has a couple moments where he's just like having stomach issues and all this. And then one day she calls and she's like, oh my God, I need somebody to come here. He's, you know, on the floor and they realize like, you know, there's. That he didn't die of natural causes or a heart attack that they, you know, they, they. Well, no, no, I, I take it back. They didn't know what caused his death at that point. We're, they're trying to figure it out, but they don't know. They just think, I mean, he's a, he's an overweight diabetic, so they don't know. And then, and then she's on vacation, the wife and there's a break in at her house. And right before she left on vacation, she'd put all these cameras and everything, like in every room. So they immediately recognize the guy stealing from her house. And he is her daughter's like best friend. This guy.
- [62:32]
B
Wow.
- [62:33]
A
And it's like, it's like he knows where everything is. So she's like, oh my God, that's like, that's crazy. So when they go to arrest him, he's like, it wasn't me. And then like show him his photo. He's like, okay, fine, it was me. I'm Ashley's best friend. And Ashley told me to go and like steal. Told me where to where everything was valuable, the guns, the guitars, all that stuff. And he's like, but I'll tell you, she's mom killed her husband. She poisoned him. So he's like, she poisoned him. So then they bring her in and she's like, that is crazy. I did not kill my husband. I don't know why this best friend of my daughter's is like saying that like this is crazy. And he goes, totally fine. We do want to take your phone to copy it for evidence. Can we get that? Absolutely. All right, let me give you the. Let me just get the form for you to, you know, fill out, giving us consent. She's like, no problem. And she's like in the little confession room and you can see that she's trying to delete every history. Yeah. Of with her daughter and this and that. But of course if she deletes it, they find it. So there's like 7,000 text messages between she and her daughter about buying all these different poisonous things. One was called like a pong pong plant. It's like this weird thing that's like from Asia or something that. And then another one, you could grind it up and like put it in like I want to put. What did she say? She put in like, like a brownie. You could do it like on a brownie with walnuts. And then there's a photo of him with like the half of the brownie on his stomach as he's like watching tv. And she takes a photo of it and sends it to the daughter and she's like, let me know and is done. Lol. And they're going back and forth, all these messages and nothing's working. He's having some health issues, but like everyone just thinks it's cuz he's like fat and diabetic and whatever the poison Just not working. Yeah, Just like something else.
- [64:37]
B
Right.
- [64:37]
A
And then they. Then they get this. Yeah. They put it in Chile. They're trying for, like, months, and everyone's like, God, I wonder what's wrong with this? His brother's like, what's wrong with this? Health and everything. And then they decide, let's get this other drug, which is the ethyl glycol that you've probably heard of, that is the antifreeze. That's always everyone's favorite. That can come right to the house.
- [65:04]
B
Yep. I don't even know what you use
- [65:07]
A
antifreeze for if you're not killing your husband. Is there another purpose of it?
- [65:12]
B
I don't think so. I don't know. Not that I know of. Not that I've heard of in the last six years is
- [65:19]
A
like, I don't know. Can you just look up what you use antifreeze for?
- [65:21]
B
I. Let me. Let's see here.
- [65:23]
A
No, I've got drink here. He could look it up.
- [65:26]
B
Okay.
- [65:27]
A
Anyway, so then. So then they put it in a root beer float, and they're, you know, oh, it's for your car. Oh, so it doesn't freeze. Well, I can't be ordering. And if I Imagine if I ordered antifreeze, and I'm like, imagine if I ordered antifreeze. And they're like, heather, what did you get that for? Well, I was afraid that my card would get too cold in Southern.
- [65:55]
B
In LA county or Southern California.
- [65:58]
A
And also I like to tinker under the hood. You know, me. So then he goes. So then she's. So then there's even, like, there was 7,000 where they're like, talking about how to poison him and what it should do and LOLs and all this other stuff. And then she's like, he's excited about us having, like, a root beer float night. And she's like, at the Sam's Club, texting her daughter these cans of, like, mini root bill beers. And the daughter's like, I would just get the big bottles, like it's a better deal. And then, like, whatever. You can pour it out, like, so they. Like. So then he has the reaper float, and that's what finally does it. And so then they bring in the daughter, who is, you know, not living there anymore, and they extradite her. And they're like, we're. We need to talk to you about this burglary that you're. That you set up for your boyfriend or your friend to steal. She comes in, they're like, I'm actually not going to talk about the burglary. Burglary. And she's like, woo, great. What else? You know? And they're like, we're going to talk about how we think that your mom and you work together to kill your stepdad. And she's like, yeah, she did it. She did it. And I was just being an obedient daughter and I've just always been like that. And she told me to do it to help her. And they're like, yeah, but like, when you saw him, like in agonizing pain, you didn't think to go, hey, can you stop this, mom? Can you like, call me?
- [67:27]
B
Yeah, he stopped poisoning my stepdad.
- [67:29]
A
Yeah. And she's like, yeah, I feel bad about that now, but okay. And then the mom, you know, was just like, hadn't talked to her daughter. And so then they come back and they're like, your mom killed herself. What? Goes home knowing that the jig is up and then goes and ends her life, I think with pills or something. And then and writes just one note. I didn't kill my husband. You win, Ashley.
- [68:01]
B
Oh, wow.
- [68:02]
A
So then they, you know, are like, okay, now we're going to try you for. Get ready for trial for you being an accomplice to this murder. And she ends up taking a plea deal, but she gets 50 years. I'm like, why'd she take a plea deal? I don't know. I think she could have done slightly better than that. But then, right from the very beginning, this is where my kids are like, God, mom, you ruin everything. Right from the beginning of this 48 hour mystery, they show her husband who's like a cute black guy. She's white, he looks fine, he's like 30, looks kind of thin and normal. And they're like. And this was her husband who died suddenly of a heart condition. And right away I go, oh, we're going to find out. She poisoned him too.
- [68:50]
B
Yeah.
- [68:50]
A
And she, they believe she did. And this is uncle.
- [68:55]
B
The daughter.
- [68:56]
A
The daughter had killed her. Poisoned, most likely. But that, you know, I don't know within this like, poor county if they're going to go after. Because, I mean, he's been buried for like five years, but. And she's already doing 50 years. But they believe. Wait, hold on. Yes, this is why they think she did it. Thank you for reminding me, Drake, in the text with the mother of how they're trying to make the, the pong pong poison plant and then switching to the antifreeze. She's like, the mom's like complaining like none of this fucking stuff has killed my giant diabetic, overweight husband. Like what's the problem? And then the daughter's like, well remember the previous time he was only 120 pounds because her cute young husband was only 120 pounds.
- [69:46]
B
So what do you think the motive was? Like, was it the life insurance policy?
- [69:50]
A
I first, when it first started and I thought they, they are like a mother daughter duo. I don't know, I, I'm surprised that they like sort of turned on each other because I thought it was going to be like, you know, you like. I thought it was going to come out that the daughter was in an abusive relationship and that she was like just kill him and then you and the kids can live with us. And then when he was bothering her or she didn, he was that great of a catch after two years that then the mother and her were like, you know, if we could just get rid of him, then we could have our own little like mother daughter village with our kids and we don't need any men. And like I thought there'd be some type of like such a tight mother daughter justification. But no, they were like the worst mother daughter that like totally didn't have each other's back in the end at all. And yes, they wanted the money and the life insurance policy, but the life insurance policy sold only like a hundred thousand dollars. So I was like, like was he that off? Like was he that? And you know, it wasn't like she was a hot vixen. Like she seemed really intelligent. Like when she was being interviewed and stuff. She had a job where she worked from home on a computer. So I also, in watching it, I was like, maybe she didn't do it, you know, but it reminded me also it reminded me of the Corey Richards because six months after the, the, the husband, older husband died, the Marcias, she wrote a self published book about grieving.
- [71:17]
B
Yeah, Corey Richards is a freaking disaster human being. She is crazy. What, what kind of sticks out to me about that case you just mentioned though is it seems like the mother and daughter were obviously in cahoots with each other. And you know, the daughter was close enough with the boyfriend that she shared with him that the mother had killed the stepfather. So why would he go and rob the house if they were all friendly and working together unless at that point they had a daughter?
- [71:43]
A
Okay, so the daughter, after the mom killed the mom's husband and the daughter, now he's dead, the daughter went behind the mom's back and had her male best friend Rob the mother and was hoping that the mother would not know. She did not know that the mother had put it. No, it wasn't like an insurance scam. It was like. No, she was fucking over the mud.
- [72:09]
B
Yeah. And I was like, down to being greedy.
- [72:12]
A
Yeah. Like, in the end, I feel like the daughter actually was the most evil because she. She killed her husband first, then kind of somehow convinced her mom that it's fine and we can do it together. Then when they do it, she steals from her mother, and then, you know, and then when it comes out, she doesn't try to defend the mother at all. She was just like, oh, yeah, well, if there's text messages about me agreeing to it, it's because, you know, I've been my mother and she made me do it. But with the Corey Richards case to remind people where she just got convicted for poisoning her husband in Utah. And she was cute and had the affairs. And in that one, she also wrote the book about, oh, being a grieving widow who has two little kids. But do you know, in that one, like, in the deeper vortex of it, I don't know how much it was mainstream, but you would probably know that her own mother had a. A boyfriend who died very suspiciously. And, like, it looks like it could have been something.
- [73:18]
B
Yes, absolutely. That Corey Richards case. I mean, that woman, the audacity and the entitlement. She has the letters that she was writing from jail trying to instruct what the testimony was going to be. Craft her brother's testimony. It's just wild. And that was. Was, in my opinion, completely driven financially. Like, that was the motivation. She wanted the money, she wanted then the notoriety. That's why she wrote the book and went on the morning show and promoted it. And she is, like, all sorts of bad.
- [73:49]
A
Did. Did she get sentenced yet? Do we know how much time she got?
- [73:52]
B
Yeah, she did get sentenced. Let me just check that Corey Richards,
- [73:58]
A
because I know Utah's weird. Like, even though she gets. You get sentenced, you have, like, a chance for parole, like, earlier than other states.
- [74:05]
B
Her sentencing is scheduled for May 13, and she faces a mandatory minimum of 25 years to life in prison with the possibility of life without parole.
- [74:16]
A
Yeah.
- [74:16]
B
So we'll see in a couple. In, like a month.
- [74:19]
A
I want someone to investigate that. The mother's situation, because the mother really had her back.
- [74:24]
B
Yeah, they all did. They. Yeah, and her brother and the fact that she.
- [74:30]
A
And she grew up, you know, like, working, you know, cleaning houses of the beautiful houses that she said Waddell owned. So it almost feels like maybe she and the mother both kind of socially climbed up throughout their lives through marriage or whatnot. So that would also kind of correlate a little bit if that turns out to be something that they can. Amazing. Annie, Elise, you have such great shows and you're such a crime queen, and I can't wait to have you guys experience, do your little experiment about the passports. But where can they.
- [75:07]
B
If I'm in jail, I'm calling you to bail me out. Okay.
- [75:11]
A
We. This will be part of the trial of being like. We weren't really trying to just. Just treat it like a mistake. If you can.
- [75:18]
B
Yes.
- [75:19]
A
Like, have them, like you're sharing a bag together. And you have them, like, right there. And then you
- [75:26]
B
give me yours. Yeah.
- [75:27]
A
Yeah. And you're right next to each other. Not like she's across. Not like you can't be. Check. And she's over here. That's.
- [75:32]
B
That's me in general.
- [75:34]
A
Okay. Okay. So where could everyone follow you?
- [75:37]
B
I have a podcast called Serial and one called Tend to Life. Both true crime and new episodes every Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday.
- [75:46]
A
Awesome. You're such a hardworking mama with such a cute family.
- [75:50]
B
Thank you. Thank you.
- [75:51]
A
I love it. Say hi to your sister for me, too.
- [75:53]
B
I will. Thanks so much for having me.
- [75:55]
A
Okay, bye. Thanks.
- [75:57]
B
Bye, Sam.