Attorney Shannon Goldstein on Prince Andrew, Shia LaBeouf and Wild Boys

Summary

Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald

Episode: Attorney Shannon Goldstein on Prince Andrew, Shia LaBeouf and Wild Boys

Date: February 25, 2026
Host: Heather McDonald
Guest: Shannon McDonald Goldstein (Criminal Defense Attorney)

---

Overview

In this episode, Heather McDonald welcomes her sister and criminal defense attorney, Shannon Goldstein, for an in-depth and lively exploration of some of the most intriguing and bizarre recent crime stories. The conversation ranges from Prince Andrew’s arrest and Ghislaine Maxwell’s media appearances, to a suspicious violent crime in Costa Rica, Shia LaBeouf’s brawl in New Orleans, and a deep dive into the Wild Boys documentary. The sisters also discuss the legal intricacies of hit-and-run cases involving celebrities and unravel a chilling crime centered around a missing realtor during a hurricane. With a blend of legal insight, skepticism, and comedic candor, Heather and Shannon bring a lighter, juicier spin to true crime.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Prince Andrew’s Arrest (02:23–04:10)

• Summary:
  Heather brings up the news that Prince Andrew was arrested—not primarily for sexual crimes linked to Jeffrey Epstein, but due to violating monarch rules regarding discussing financial matters.
• Shannon’s Take:
  Shannon expresses a mix of irony and skepticism, noting, “At least it’s another man. Because I know what you would say—we've only got Ghislaine and now we have a man. If you want to call him that, quite frankly. Pretty gross.” (03:31)
  Both highlight how the arrest diverts attention from the real issues of sexual abuse.

2. Ghislaine Maxwell Conspiracy (04:10–06:51)

• Summary:
  Heather doubts recent prison interviews with “Ghislaine,” citing changes in her appearance and accent: “It didn’t sound that English… the nose is different… I just don’t believe it.” (05:35)
  Shannon agrees, suggesting authorities assume the public won’t notice discrepancies, “I think they think they're talking to or representing a stupid audience.” (06:31)

3. Costa Rican Surfer Murder & Suspicious Circumstances (07:06–11:12)

• Summary:
  The sisters discuss the case of a 66-year-old American surfer murdered in Costa Rica, with his much younger girlfriend tied up but unharmed at the scene. Heather finds the circumstances suspicious, musing whether the girlfriend might be involved or benefit from his death.
  • “It is suspicious that they just tied her up… To me it's just one of those things, like the minute you read, and there's very little on it, but it's suspicious.” (08:35)
• Shannon’s Legal Insight:
  She considers possible motives, life insurance, and the safety of expat communities, stressing that “these would be… questions that I’m sure is gonna be investigated. But also incredibly sad." (10:05)

4. Shia LaBeouf’s Bourbon Street Brawl (11:12–15:14)

• Summary:
  Shia LaBeouf is caught on camera fighting and using homophobic slurs during Mardi Gras in New Orleans, with ambiguity surrounding whether he was arrested.
• Personal Connection:
  Shannon’s daughter was visiting Bourbon Street around the same time, so she jokes about her relief that her daughter was safe:
  “I’m just so happy if there was a fight that had involved him and not my daughter…” (11:26)
• Heather’s Observations:
  The hosts reflect on the party atmosphere of New Orleans and Shia’s struggles, noting that he just broke up with his wife, which might be a factor in his behavior.
  “But he has struggled a lot and… just broke up with his wife. So that doesn't help when you're just broken up with your wife and you're boozing it.” (14:01)

5. Celebrities & Hit-And-Run Cases: Kim Delaney Example (20:34–27:41)

• Summary:
  Actress Kim Delaney is being sued after allegedly hitting a motorcycle, possibly while intoxicated, and offering money to avoid police involvement.
• Legal Breakdown:
  Shannon outlines how such cases often become civil (not criminal) if information is exchanged after the fact:
  “If the police made a report and Kim was not there because of whatever she said, they obviously believed Kim somewhat or the prosecutor would have filed… a hit and run.” (20:41)
  • Discussion segues into both sisters’ stories of minor car accidents and the awkwardness of exchanging personal information as a public figure, ultimately suggesting the use of PO boxes for privacy.

6. Wild Boys: Paramount+ Documentary Examination (27:41–47:18)

• Summary:
  A deep dive into the strange, true story behind the “Wild Boys” documentary about two brothers who showed up as “feral children” in a Canadian town.
• Key Observations:
  • The boys claimed to have grown up off the grid, refused to identify parents, and drew significant public sympathy and suspicion.
  • The older brother’s manipulation and the younger brother’s severe eating disorder are detailed.
  • Revealed as a California family with conspiracy-theory leanings, the boys' parents seemed curiously unfazed by their disappearance.
  • Shannon is struck by the boys’ lack of remorse and the parents’ oddity:
    “I do agree with the officer that says there’s been no growth, nothing has changed. They still… think what they did was no harm, no foul, no remorse, no real growth.” (43:01)
  • Both hosts marvel at how easily people can create new identities and the allure of grifter stories.

7. Crime under the Cover of a Natural Disaster: Missing Realtor Case (51:15–65:31)

• Summary:
  Heather recounts a case of a beautiful realtor who disappeared during a hurricane in Houston. The ex-husband eventually confessed, after elaborate police interrogation, to suffocating her, trying to cover it up by staging her car for theft, and disposing of her body carelessly.
• Legal Discussion:
  • Shannon weighs in on the question of premeditated vs. “crime of passion” murder, distinguishing planning before vs. after:
    “When I think of premeditation and first degree murder… there’s gotta be some sort of planning. I don’t really see a suffocation as… planning.” (61:03)
  • Both reflect on the psychological profile of criminals who forego legal counsel during interrogations and the unusual amount of trust or ego that entails.
  • Heather wonders if confessions can ever help the accused during sentencing; Shannon confirms they sometimes do.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

About Prince Andrew’s arrest:

• “At least it’s another man. Because I know what you would say—we've only got Ghislaine and now at least we have a man. If you want to call him that, quite frankly, pretty gross.” – Shannon (03:29)

On the likelihood of Ghislaine still being in prison:

• “I just don’t believe it… with your limited resources… you’d say, ‘Actually, can I dye my hair back and cut it the way I had it when I was with Epstein?’” – Heather (05:35)

On the suspicious Costa Rica murder:

• “I think it’s very suspicious that they just tied her up…” – Heather (08:35)

On the Wild Boys story twist:

• “When you first start out… you’re imagining there’s some weird family that has kept their kids from going to school… and then to hear the parents live in California and are like, ‘Oh, we just caught our teenage sons that wanted to live their own life and… are like TV stars in British Columbia’—it was so bizarre.” – Heather (36:04)

On police interrogations:

• “There has to be so much ego with this guy. Because really you’re telling me that at no time you didn’t think that you needed an attorney?” – Shannon (64:19)

On the theme of grifters:

• “Why wouldn’t you believe the guy you’re dating for three months is who he said he was? You’re supposed to not believe people when you meet them?” – Heather (46:20)

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Prince Andrew’s Arrest and Ghislaine Maxwell Conspiracy – 02:23–06:51
• Costa Rica Surfer Murder – 07:06–11:12
• Shia LaBeouf’s New Orleans Brawl – 11:12–15:14
• Legal Discussion: Providing Information After a Crash (Kim Delaney’s Case) – 20:34–27:41
• The Wild Boys Deep Dive – 27:41–47:18
• True Crime and Missing Realtor During a Hurricane – 51:15–65:31

---

Tone & Style

The episode balances legal expertise and skepticism with playful sibling banter and “juicy” storytelling. Both hosts dissect the motives, behavior, and public reactions to crime while weaving in personal anecdotes and sharply observed commentary.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode offers an entertaining, insightful, and sometimes irreverent take on true crime, steering away from the darkest details to focus on human behavior, legal quirks, and the curious juxtapositions of crime in modern life. Shannon’s legal analysis adds depth to Heather’s juicy storytelling, making it a standout for crime podcast fans who want intelligent discussion served with a sense of humor.

---

Connect with Shannon Goldstein:

• Instagram | TikTok | michaelgoldstein.net

---

Notable Fun:

• “Yellow Flower” is Heather’s nickname for her sister, closing the episode with warmth and laughter.

---

Transcript

[A]

This episode of Juicy Crimes is sponsored by Jones Road Beauty. Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our Juicy Scoopers are getting a free Shimmer face oil on their first purchase when they use Code Juicy Crimes at checkout. Just head to Jonesroadbeauty.com and use code Juicy Crimes at checkout. After you purchase they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them Heather McDonald's sent you. Nothing hits like home cooking and Hellofresh makes it so easy to do more this year with recipes that feel good and taste delicious night after night. And you can impress guests like I made a delicious chicken dinner. Everyone was like oh my God Heather, look at you. And how did you have time? Well, I had time because hellofresh delivered it right to my door. Go to hellofresh.com juicycrimes10fm. That's to get 10 free meals plus a free Zwilling knife $144.99 value on your third box offer valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I have your favorite criminal defense attorney and sister, Shannon McDonald Goldstein, aka Yellow Flower. Welcome back to Juicy Crimes. My sister, my soulmate Shannon Goldstein.

[B]

So good to be back. I love talking to you and laughing with you. It's fun.

[A]

But we're going to get into some dark things. But just to go over some things in the news right now. Did you see this will be. Wait, let me start. Let me just start again because. Okay, let me just. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I have your favorite my sister. My favorite as well. Criminal defense attorney Shannon McDowell Goldstein is here to join us to talk about some juicy crimes. Welcome back, Shannon.

[B]

Thanks, Heather. It's so great to be back. It's always so great to be back.

[A]

Well, let's get into a couple things going on. I just saw in the news that Prince Andrew was arrested, but it's not for what you would think per se. It is Epstein related, but it's for him violating the Monarch rules of talking about financial things with Jeffrey Epstein, which has been revealed in their email conversations. So you know all the headlines are Prince Andrew has been arrested. It's also very interesting that no one in America has been arrested for anything. But they did arrest the prince at his. He was already had been kicked out of one of the houses when he was kind of deranged or whatever you want to call it. So he was living in a property that King Charles owned. That's where he was arrested. And it holds a maximum sentence of life. But that's a maximum. But what do you think of all of that?

[B]

Well, I was making my coffee this morning and I saw the latest, which was that he was arrested. I didn't know the details yet, but I immediately thought to myself, well, at least it's another man. Because I know what you would say was, we've only got Ghislaine and now at least we have a man. If you want to call him that, quite frankly, pretty gross. But I don't know the details. I just think it is kind of funny that it's more about the monarch and abiding by the monarch. It's still not really addressing the issue of really what we should be talking about, which is pedophilia and quite frankly, sexual crimes. But I guess we'll take what we can get, right?

[A]

And then, of course, with Ghislaine, we covered it a little bit more last week on Juicy Scoop that the person that gave the interview saying, I'll take the fifth from behind bars, I don't believe is Ghislaine looks like a completely different person with a different nose shape and everything else. So I don't even know that she's behind bars at this point either. Yeah.

[B]

Didn't you also kind of tell me that you thought it was a different accent than that she normally had too, when you were talking about how I

[A]

thought when I first heard her that it sounded like slightly more like a cross between Irish and English. It didn't sound that English. Not that I've seen her talk a million times, but I remember just seeing it when I at first believed it was her. And then, you know, the whole thing with the hair and the fact that the nose is different and that she moved from prisons. It's just all.

[B]

Do you think that through age? Because I don't. I remember you showed me like three photos and I know one, obviously her hair was longer. The nose remain the same. It's obviously been some years since she's been in custody. I just sometimes I wonder about the shape of a person's nose and if it can kind of maybe spread out, fall down because it looked like her to the top of her upper lip. Just an observation, but it's like the

[A]

bridge is completely different. The bridge and the shape of the. It'd be different if it. Yes, people's noses do grow as they get older, but it's like, just gets like a little longer This, I just. No, I just don't believe it. And I don't believe that if you were in prison and you went into prison with a longer brown, gray bob, that then you would say with your limited resources. Actually, you know what I would love? I would love for you to cut my hair the way it was when I was frolicking around with Jeffrey Epstein. And can I also use the little bit of money that I have for black dye to dye it black so it looks exactly how it looked when I was out and about. And so I think that in them finding a match, they put on that wig, which I think is so stupid, they should have just kept her hair the way it was when she entered.

[B]

Well, I think. I think they think that they're talking to or representing a stupid audience. So our limited memory is, what does she look like when she was taken into custody? I don't think anybody ever thought that she. That anybody would actually look to see that she had changed her look prior to going into custody.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's just, what is the audience, the American people or the world going to remember? What are they going to remember? Oh, they're going to remember the short hair, the standard Ghislaine Maxwell look. We'll just replicate that.

[A]

Another weird crime that happened was there was this famous surfer who was 66, and he'd been living in Costa Rica for quite a while. He was known among the surfers there, teaching surfing, all of that. So he was 66, but still surfing, you know, young at heart, obviously. He was seen in Costa Rica, he was killed. He was found murdered, I think stabbed and left with, like, a blanket over him. And his girlfriend, who was 31, was allegedly in the shower when these men came in, killed him, and then just tied her up, but didn't kill her. And, you know, so people are talking, is Costa Rica safe? You know, obviously, first thought was, wow, 66 and 31, that's quite a big age difference. But if you're a surfer, you are still that kid that surfed his whole life. His parents, like, were like famous surfers. It's obviously very tragic. No one deserves anything like that. It's horrible. But I'm gonna go on the record to say I, I think it's very suspicious that they just tied her up. She appears. I don't know if she's a local or what, but having that big age difference, I think that is a weird circumstance, a weird story.

[B]

So your theory is, is that she's a part of it, or she had hired somebody and Then said, maybe them or something.

[A]

Maybe it was an angry ex boyfriend of hers. Maybe it was. Maybe she was in on it. Maybe it'll be interesting to see if she is, if she gains anything from this death, like a life insurance. I mean, I hope, I hope not. I'm not wishing for this. I'm just saying it. To me, it's just one of those things, like the minute you read and there's very little on literally all what I said. So. And then, you know, people like, does it show? They say, oh, Costa Rica has gotten more dangerous. I went there like 12 years ago and there were a lot of, you know, expats. And there was actually this, this place we walked to from our condo every day and got breakfast. And it was this American guy who opened a breakfast joint, met a young girl there who he. Either they were, you know, a couple or they were married. So he was like 60, from New Jersey and just was like, you know, wanted to start a new life in Costa Rica. So they started this little, like, you know, little cafe and we'd go there every day for breakfast. And so, I mean, I think there's a lot of that, you know, where somebody has, you know, from America just goes and makes it their life and, and can have a really nice, like, second chapter of their life in Costa Rica. But I felt like it had a safe vibe, but, you know, everything's changed, right?

[B]

And that's. Matt was my only point is you thought it had a safe vibe, but also, you know, you also always think Mexico has a safe vibe. And I mean, there's parts of Mexico that have changed. Not every part of Mexico, obviously. No, I definitely think with, unfortunately with drug cartel in South America that things have changed. But I'm curious what if. And I know you don't have a lot of information, but I'm curious as to how long these two were together. It sounds like it was just a boyfriend, girlfriend, not a marriage or other, some sort of contractual relationship. But I would be curious to see just the length of time, did they just meet in Costa Rica or was this more of they've met or they met recently maybe in the States and then they came down just to go to a ski situation. You know, is she on some sort of. Is she a beneficiary to some policy? I mean, these would be, you know, some of the questions that I'm sure is gonna be investigated. But also incredibly sad too. You know, it could have also been targeted because, you know, if he's a world famous surfer, he might be Known as someone who has a lot of, you know, assets. I. I don't know.

[A]

You know, so. Okay, I agree with all that, and we'll. We'll find out more, hopefully, and there'll be some justice, whatever that might be. Did you see what happened with Shia LaBeouf?

[B]

Yes. And I'm just so happy. I'm not happy, but I'm happy if there was a fight that had involved him and not my daughter, who happened to be at Bourbon street approximately at the same time, or maybe not the same time, but around the same dates. And I was very happy to get my proof of life from my daughter, and she is now home safe and sound in Baton Rouge.

[A]

So Shannon's daughter goes to lsu, so obviously that's a hot spot to go and have fun.

[B]

Right? She said it was amazing, by the way. She really did. She said it was amazing. And just so you know, she said it was amazing, and she actually said she actually felt quite safe. And, you know, interesting enough with this Shia LaBeouf thing. The actual. As far as.

[A]

Let's just tell people in case they don't know what happened. Yes. So it appears that he was intoxicated, as one does when they're walking around New Orleans at this time of year, and got in a fight with two guys, screamed the F word for a homophobic slur at them, which is awful. And then somehow a fight started and his shirt was off because the video only showed once his shirt was off. So I don't know if he was walking around with the shirt off or the shirt came off in the fighting. And it was. He allegedly threw the first punches with a closed fist along with. He was the one saying the slurs.

[B]

And.

[A]

But then it appeared like, oh, but he's back out and everything's fine. Like, I don't even know if he was arrested. I just think this was just caught on tape.

[B]

Yeah. And I think, you know, because I kind of follow all the stuff that was going on with Mardi Gras, I got the feeling this was not the only fight scene I saw in Mardi Gras. Apparently there was a few that were being circulated on social media. So maybe the kind of like, oh, he was arrested and now it's kind of died down is due to the fact that I think there were more than a few brawls on. On Bourbon street, unfortunately.

[A]

I saw something that's like, how many of everybody. Every American should go to every one of these cities at least once or something. And they listed all of them, and there was maybe 20 or something. And there was only one that I have not been to or. Or spot or whatever, and that is New Orleans. I have never been to New Orleans. And when I was dating Peter and we were not, you know, engaged or anything, he had some business that was going to take us there and we were going to go during jazz week and he found this like super cute place for us to stay with like hardwood floors. And I was like so excited. And then whatever. The deal fell through and I never went. And when I was in college, I had a friend who lived in, who came from New Orleans and she took some girls and I guess I could have weaseled my way in. Anyway, I didn't go, but I heard about how much fun they had. So I. I've never. It's the one city I've never. I've never gone to. And people say, why don't you do a show there? And I'm not really sure what the standup scene is like. I assume it would be quite competitive with all like the live music. But I. That would be something a goal to do for you and me to go and visit Hailey and have fun. But you know, yeah, there people drink all day and it could be crazy thing. But he has struggled a lot and he just news was that he just broke up with his wife. So that doesn't help when you're just broken up with your wife and you're boozing it.

[B]

I thought I had heard that he had just broken up with his wife. But yeah. As to you and me and Haley, we definitely can plan a trip and we could do. I mean, not Mardi Gras. I wouldn't do Mardi Gras, but let's definitely do something else we'd rather do else.

[A]

We'd do a pewter time. Yeah, cute.

[B]

Like jazz, anything. I mean, it's really. Even when I went there last time I was there, it was October. Well, end of. No, September, October. And it was great. It was really, really fun. So I would. We'll definitely make it happen.

[A]

This is the Jones Road beauty miracle balm that I absolutely love. It is when you don't want that full makeup caked look, but you want a little something more. You want that golden hour glow when you're going for a walk, when you go to the grocery store, when you're doing your errands, when you're playing pickleball. This is perfect. And I love that you can use it as a highlighter, as putting it on my face right now as a lip tint, a bronzer. It just makes your skin look like you almost have a filter on. And I get so many compliments whenever I have it on. People like, did you just get a facial? What's going on with you? And I'm like, no, it's Jones Road Beauty. And right now Jones Road Beauty has launched an eyeshadow stick and it's truly a staple. It's creamy. It's a high pigment eyeshadow stick designed for real life. You can just swipe it and blend with your fingers. Again, easy. And it really is so complimentary to anything that you're doing on your face and it just elevates your look along with the incredible balm that I love. Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our Juicy Scoopers are getting a free Shimmer face oil on their first purchase when they use Code Juicy Crimes at checkout. Just head to Jonesroadbeauty.com and use code Juicy Crimes at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them Heather McDonald's sent you. Starting something new isn't just hard, it's terrifying. And so much goes into that thing that's just you're not entirely sure will even work out. And it can be hard to make that leap of faith. Trust me, I know. I did it with this podcast. When I started it, I wasn't really sure if I was going to make any money, if anybody would listen and what or that I would be annoyed by my own voice. Turns out I love it and I love listening to me. And that's what it takes when you start your own business. You've got, you've got to take the leap of faith. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are strolling or scrolling. And did I mention that the iconic purple shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world. World. It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. It also helps boost conversions, meaning less carts going abandoned and more sales for you. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com juicycrimes go to shopify.com juicycrimes that's shopify.com juicycrimes nothing hits like home cooking and HelloFresh makes it so easy to do more this year with recipes that feel good and taste delicious night after night. You can choose from more than 35 high protein recipes each week including new Mediterranean and GLP1 friendly options. So you can feel great with wholesome ingredients like sustainably sourced seafood, 100% antibiotic and hormone free chicken. And you can impress guests like I made a delicious chicken dinner. And you know, it was, everyone was like, oh my God Heather, look at you. And how did you have time? Well, I had time because HelloFresh delivered it right to my door. I love hellofresh and I know you will too. Go to hellofresh.com juicycrimes10fm that's to get 10 free meals plus a free Zwilling knife. A hundred and forty four dollars ninety nine value on your third box offer valid while supplies last free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only varies by plan. One more thing before we get into our main couple stories. I saw this. Kim Delaney, the actress, is dealing with some legal issues right now because this man is suing her in 2022. She hit her car into his motorcycle and he claims that she got out and smelled of alcohol and seemed drunk and offered him money on the spot to not call police. And I guess he refused. And then she got in her car and left. And now she's claiming, no, I wasn't drunk and I left because I was famous, because I am famous and I didn't feel safe. Okay, how would you, as a criminal defense attorney work on this case if you were defending her?

[B]

Well, first of all, I don't know if it's a criminal case. It sounds to me like she's being sued. So it might be a sue.

[A]

She's being sued. Okay, so maybe how would you get out of this situation?

[B]

Well, I mean, essentially it's a he said, she said. But what you would think is if he, if he's saying he refused and he did call the police, then the police did come and make a report. And if the police made a report and Kim was not there because of whatever she had said, they obviously believed Kim somewhat or the prosecutor would have filed what we call a hit and run. Because a hit and run is not just hitting and running, it's hitting and not staying long enough to give your information. So let's say she left and he goes, oh, well, she left, but it was Kim Delaney and this is her phone number. Then the cops are like okay, well, that's not a hit and run because she reported and gave the information and they followed up. And now I think it's probably didn't become a criminal case, it's become a civil case because it's Kim Delaney and he probably wants to sue and he's hoping to collect some money.

[A]

Well, then I read the article a little further, and her boyfriend or husband, the last cops were called to their house in the last year or so due to, like, a dis. A domestic dispute. And that tells me, you know, maybe there is some drinking volatility going on in this situation. But I, I, I had something happen where I slowly, like, rolled into a car in front of me, you know, just, I wasn't. Obviously I shouldn't have done that. And I, I was like, looked at the person. I'm like, I'm so sorry. And they're like, come over. Follow me. So we drive into the Target parking lot, and I'm like, I'm. It's just so weird when you do get, like, an accident. I always think it's so weird when someone, like, screams at the other person, right? Because you're like, well, obviously I didn't mean to, like, do this, you know. So anyway, it was a guy and a girl, and the guy comes out. They're like, in their 30s or 40s, just, they're like, in a normal car or whatever. Like, and, And I see, I pull and I get out. I see there's no damage to the back of his car, and there's none in front of to mine, for that matter. He's like, what happened? And I'm like, I'm so sorry. Inadvertently, like, tapped into you, and I apologize, but it looks like there's no damage, you know? And he's like, wait a minute. It's against the law for you to not give me all your information. And I was like, okay, fine. Like, it was kind of freaking me out. So at first, I couldn't remember if my personal residence was on my driver's license or not, but it's not, so. Because I was. It was kind of freaking me out. I didn't really want to give them my address. I felt like they might have known who I was. And it just was kind of like. But I was like, okay, well, this is fine. So I give him that, Give him the insurance and everything. And it was just like. But I can see why sometimes maybe a celebrity would be like, all right, I don't totally feel safe in her defense, like, giving all my information, but I Mean, hitting someone that was on a motorcycle where clearly, like, their body was like, yeah, I would have never left.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

A little more than a fender bender situation where you're like, okay, dude. Like, I don't see any damage, so I am gonna leave. But I did. He did say I couldn't leave unless they gave him everything. So I was like, okay. I took photos and I never heard from him, but I definitely thought I was gonna, like, hear something like, oh, my wife's neck hurts or something, because it would just felt. It felt very much that they were like, either recognized me or, you know, was like, let's see if we can weasel out of this one. So I.

[B]

But I also think that it's re. You're reactionary when either you've hit somebody or someone's hit you. Cause something very somewhat. Something similar happened to me, too, and I was kind of taken aback by my demeanor and kind of how I kind of came off, because it really wasn't my fault. I was waiting behind a car, and these. There was a group of kids, and they felt like they didn't want to wait for the light, so they just backed into me. Like, they didn't realize I was there, so they backed into me so they

[A]

could go into the car to get out of the lane.

[B]

Yeah. And I didn't think there was any damage to my car, but I couldn't really tell because I was so discombobulated.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they had just sort of bought a car. Like, they didn't really totally have all of their information, but some of it. But they were nice. And then I think I became kind of bitchy because I wanted their information, and I just. Because what if I then discovered that there was a problem with my car or something? And maybe because I do know the law, and so I think you can all just get kind of thrown off. I just got thrown off, and in the end it was fine, but it just. It threw me off. And. And I, you know, I didn't. You know, I just. I didn't really want to. But then when I kind of knew that I could see that they had just gotten their car and there was no damage. I didn't really.

[A]

But I just wondered, like, now I kind. I kind of think about anybody, like, even, like, someone. A girl. Like, it is weird that in giving your info, most people have their personal residence address on their driver's license.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that is kind of weird to have to give to someone who's, like, in a hostile state where you live.

[B]

Well, you Know, and it's really interesting you say that too, because typically, you know, prior to, I don't, I don't have my personal address. I never have because of kind of what I do or what I, you know, what I did as a lawyer, you the same way because of, you know, maybe your profession. But now it's really like, why would anybody, you know, it's almost like you need to. You should put like a PO Box on it, right? You really want to be more safe. But I think when they're really looking for it is they're looking for some way that they can locate you so they know they have a name, preferably a number, so they can reach you, but a driver's license number, really, your driver's license number is what is going to identify you ultimately at the end.

[A]

But I mean, I'm just saying with someone, like, I guess you could say, you know, cover it and be like, okay, take a photo of it, but I'm covering the address and. Or write it down. But again, I do think that's something to be concerned about.

[B]

Like, well, and I do think you do have to, when you do have to give them your information. And I'm thinking about maybe the code and how is that modified. Like, I'm thinking to myself, could you say, here's my information and my address is on it, but I'm not going to give it to you. And then someone could come back and say, under the code, you're supposed to be giving me your information, which would include identifying information, which would include an address. I'm just kind of thinking of an argument that could ultimately.

[A]

Right.

[B]

How much am I supposed to dig to try to find you to see if I even have a lawsuit against you? That's why the insurance is so important. But, you know, even though it's against the law not to have insurance, some people don't have insurance. So how do you follow up? Which is precisely the whole point of it.

[A]

Well, let's get into some more juicy stuff. Okay, so there is a show on Paramount, plus a documentary called Wild Boys. I am very familiar with the story because there was a long form podcast that I ended up listening to a couple years ago. So it is one of the strangest stories that happened about 20 years ago with these two boys that kind of entered this town in British Columbia. Do you want to kind of take it from there, Shannon?

[B]

So it's. They come, they identify basically as brothers. One's a teenager, I would say 15, 16, and then there's an older one that might be early 20s. And the reason they're sort of noticed this is in a town called Vernon in British Columbia, which I don't think is too far from Toronto, but I'm not exactly sure, but it's British Columbia. Basically, this, you know, regular good Samaritan citizen is just kind of driving around and just sees these two disheveled young boys walking on the street. And one looks extremely thin, and she goes, oh, I wonder if they're okay. And then she kind of does her own digging and discovers that they're sort of camping out behind a store and she's worried about them, you know. And so after she does more digging, he finds out that she kind of leaves a phone number by the. By the payphone that they use. This is early 2000s, so there's a payphone. And it basically says, hey, I want to make sure that you. If you need help, let me know. And so they do. They call her. I don't think. I think she just wanted to make sure they were okay. And they call her and they say, hey, yeah, we do need some help. But they're very, very, very secretive. They're very thin or kind of disheveled. And they. Basically, the little bit they tell them is, we've been living off the grid. We've been living in the wild for our entire life. They won't tell them who their parents are, where the parents are from. They just kind of say after a certain period of time, we kind of had to get away from them. Now, I am not that familiar with the story, so I found it quite interesting watching this documentary. One of my questions that came up was, well, what did the parents do to them? I mean, why did they even leave the parents? Are they just tired of being off the grid? And how far off the grid are they? And do they. Have they been coming in and out a lot? Nobody seems to know, but everyone is curious. Some people think this could be kind of a scam. Some people think, oh, we gotta help these boys. One of the boys, the younger one, is the real thin one, and he's almost. I don't wanna say mute, but he really doesn't talk at all. And they're really not doing anything. They're not really even. They're not panhandling. They're not seeking out help. This woman tried to help them, but because at least one is considered a juvenile, everyone wants to help. So over time, and they're just kind of being quiet, then the police department gets involved, and they probably come in a little rough with the police department because the boys really haven't done anything. But people are like, well, what's up? I mean, are they gonna rob us? Who are they? All this kind of stuff anyway. I mean, just to kind of cut to the chase, it ultimately kind of. It grows as far as a story and they end up. And I'm not really sure why they end up doing this. Maybe because they were hungry, I don't know. But they end up doing a TV show. I don't know if it was a Discover show or something. And you may shed light on this, Heather, but they end up doing this like TV show. And all of a sudden, you know, people start.

[A]

They were like guests on like a. Yeah, the guests on like a local show.

[B]

And what they are hoping is they're hoping not only to help the boys, but maybe we could find out who these parents are or how can we. Who are these kids? They have no id. They have a very. I mean, it might as well have been John Smith, but it's Tom Green and Will Green. Like, it's like it could be anything, right? We have an approximate age. I'm always kind of wondering to myself, well, I mean, it's also Canada, so I don't know. But I'm like, why is no one taking them to a hospital earlier? Take a blood test, take something, you know, but you know, obviously they'd have to consent to it. They don't want to, but they're just not really saying much of anything. And all of a sudden this. And this woman that's helping them is lovely. I mean, she really wants to help them. She really wants to believe them, but she really wants to help them now. And it becomes kind of crucial. I missed a part because the younger boy just. It basically has an eating disorder. He's got some sort of body dysmorphia and he only wants to eat healthy food. And whatever he's eating, which is primarily fruit, he's going to. He needs to go to hospital. He's not getting the nutrients he needs. He's self harming. So in the end, and this is where it kind of gets started, is they end up doing something that's similar to R5150. If you are harming yourself or someone else, if you're harmed to yourself, they can basically hold you for a certain period of time. They take him and they take him to the hospital and they try to get him healthy. And at that particular point in time, maybe the older brother realizes, well, maybe I'll do this show. And Maybe we can, I don't know, start a new life with our tall tale. I have really no idea. But anyway, he did the show and at that particular point in time is when was the show?

[A]

Was the show? Cause I'm trying to remember, was the show just like a one off?

[B]

It was, I believe it was just a one off, but, you know, but enough people had gotten involved and anyway, but it ends up becoming a national, international show. And lo and behold, this woman says those are. I'm pretty positive those are my sons. And she seems very normal, she's from California. And then you start to kind of hear what the true story is because it turns out that she, they're able to identify that she is not just some, you know, crazy person that wants to get involved in this story because she's able to identify a very distinct scar that her younger son had. And this is kind of when his nutritional issues started. He, you know, fell on a bike handle or something and he kind of ripped his abdomen and, and he just got very, very scared about, you know, what he's putting in his body and what kind of medicine he has to take. And then this is the part where you can kind of jump in here because this is where I thought it was just touched upon, but in such a slight way because this is the early 2000s. But you get the impression that the family of, of the actual family in California was, I guess today's day would be conspiracy theorists, anti vaxxers, something in that reign. But at the time I gu. No one was talking like that or about that. But it was enough where he started kind of understanding when he finally got sick, this little boy that he really, you know, it was in his mind that he didn't to not trust doctors. Now they've cut him open to not trust vaccines, to not trust medicine, to not trust, you know, put a tube in you to help you. It was. So instead he just starts to kind of go down this lane where he's just going to do what he wants to do himself. And while he is going through that and recovering and this is when he's in California, nobody can help him. Like the parents are trying to help him. They're trying to get him psychological, you know, help and physical help and. But he's now so far gone that essentially CPS has to get involved. And when CPS tries to get involved and get him, he just runs off. And I guess the older brother who wanted to go to Canada too, they just run off together. And I thought the oddest thing Was when they finally do interview these parents, they're kind of laughing about it. I'm like, you're 16 and 15 year old son and 20 year old who. They're just gone. Because, well, the older one wasn't really doing much with his life, so we kind of figured he'd go to Canada anyway. But did you know that the brother was, Were they together? There was a lot of unanswered questions. So you want to chime in?

[A]

Yeah, no, but I mean, I guess and then I, I do think, I think that was so bizarre because when you first start out and you're imagining being these people that live in the British Columbia town, you're imagining that there's some weird family that has kept their kids from going to school, right. That aren't getting properly bathed or whatever. And finally when they got to a certain age, they've left this tent or this cabin or wherever they were living off the grid with the rest of the weird family and come down the hill and now are living in this town and eating the food that's getting thrown out of the grocery store or whatever. And so you're like, well, my God, are there any other children? And who is this weird? Who are their parents? And then to hear that the parents live in California and are like, oh, we just caught our teenage sons that wanted to live their own life and you know, I guess are like now TV stars in the British Columbia because people think they're like wild boys is the name of the thing because they're, they just literally thought they were. Almost like the way you first hear about it is like they thought they were like, you know, dirty wild boys, like, like Tarzan, you know, like when Tarzan was raised by the apes or whatever. Like who. Where did these people come from? And to find out that they came from California and. Okay, so nice home.

[B]

It's a nice home. I think it's in Northern California, right?

[A]

I mean they really were hippie dippy or, or and then turned conspiracy theorists or whatever it was. But they were, you know, maybe, but they were still like lived in a normal house.

[B]

And they have other children, right? There's like an older boy and an older daughter who's beautiful and she's like, here's my home. And it's like two story suburban home. And there was just like some things where they're like, oh, we gave them a computer and then. But they seem to know how to work it. And then the.

[A]

Right. With the British Columbia people that helped like gave them a computer thinking that they would be like whatever. And they're like, no, how do they know? I mean I thought you grew up your whole life like with no education, you know, eating berries and like getting, you know, taking a bath once every three months in the, in a creek, you know.

[B]

But the older boy who called himself Tom would say like, wow. Like he'd interview with all the scruffiness on the face and he'd go, wow. Like, I mean a computer. Like we didn't really know what to do with this. But at the end when you know, you know the gig is up, he's kind of like, well it was a good acting gig. Like to them it was just, it was just acting. It was a story, I mean to both of them really. And then.

[A]

So when, what did they really tell everybody? Like what they did come out, when did the gig, when was the gig up? And when did they kind of share what they want, what they were doing with all of this?

[B]

Well, I think once the, the, once their mom, you know, you know, it was the, their, their mom and then literally she wants to talk to him, she wants to call him on the phone. And at the end he does like what, what Brandon and Drake would do with you and Matthew would do with me. He's like, love you. Love you too. But he acts like he's like, who, who's this? I mean it's so. I don't even unsophisticated but like just the nature of it was kind of amazing to hear. I don't know the exact amount of time I got the impression it was months. So let's say this started in October. Maybe the gig was up by April. That was the impression I got because I think her name is Tammy. Tammy. This lovely lady that was able to help them got them into a hostel and you know, they had to talk to the police. So there had to have been some time. It shows that they would come to the house, they celebrated one of the kids birthdays. So obviously the kid knew what his birthday was. I mean sometimes you kind of have to wonder about that. And then at one point in time she takes them all the way to where they say their parents are. This is before the gig is up and just pulls over on the side of the road, doesn't bring anybody else with her. And at this point in time she's like, I still don't know who these guys are. And they just walk into the woods, you know, just like. And then like, like their house is just sitting like, like it's. What's that? That God. That like when you go to Disneyland, like it's the tree house, you know. Why? You know, I don't know what they're walking.

[A]

Like, I just remember like imagining when I heard the story the first time, like, you know, when you're just like driving, you know, on a road like to Mammoth or whatever, and you just see there's just like one lone house.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That someone built and it's like dilapidated. Like probably no one's lived there for like, you know, 30 years. And you're like, who just decided to build a house there? And like, where do they get their water? And like, where do you get your groceries? And why. And so I think that's what they were thinking.

[B]

Well, I don't think they really thought it through because then also like other as. And I think as the lie got deeper and deeper, deeper, they knew they were kind of stuck because apparently they didn't know how to chop wood. And everybody. That was pretty interesting because, like, how can you, you know, if you should be like a monkey, you should be flying from trees chopping wood. Yeah. You should be knowing how to light a fire. I mean, you should be a master at this. And the only thing that you could tell that they were maybe living in the woods was the fact that they hadn't shaved in a while. That was pretty much the only telltale sign. But I think at the end when you, especially when you talk to the older one, there's just no remorse at all. Like, do you feel badly that you're basically lying to Tammy? Well, you know, it's not our business to tell people our story. I mean, we didn't ask for the help. She offered the help. There was just this flagrant, total disregard for honesty and truthfulness. That was just.

[A]

And isn't that the truth that California comes to the nice Canadians with a BS fake story and they. And they're nice enough to help the. The stupid California entitled shit.

[B]

Yeah, it was a little bit. Yeah, a lot of that. But also, and obviously we touch upon it, is that not only was the younger one going through some mental health issues and that, you know, spun from maybe his belief or the way he was raised with conspiracy, but also that apparently the older child was going through some mental health issues. He had graduated high school and then just kind of said, I don't really want to do anything. I don't think I need to do anything. I'm just going to go into the, into Canada. I mean, obviously they were smart enough to run away from authorities, not tell their parents where they're going, manage to get a ride all the way up to British Columbia. I mean, they, they're. They're not stupid. And then tell this tall tale sign. And basically, probably the older one who I think later on his. Well, his real name is Kyle. And I think I want to say Rowan is the younger boy's name, but they basically, you know, you know, he kind of comes up with this thing and just, you know, follow my lead. Because I remember when I first started watching it and not knowing anything, and I have to tell you, it was kind of cool because you knew the story, but I didn't, and you didn't tell me the story. And I started watching it with Michael, and I was thinking, I go, you know, maybe the older boy is not a brother. They're not brothers at all. The older boy kidnapped Will. That was because this kid's, like, not talking and he's talking for him. Clearly, I was wrong on that. And it's weird because the whole. At the end of it, because I think they. They show them kind of together in 2000 and talking now and interviewing, and I don't know when the latest was, but certainly they were talking to them in 2016 and 2020. But, like, I do agree with the officer that says there's been no growth, nothing has changed. They're still kind of thinking that they're. What they did was no harm, no foul, no remorse, no real growth. They still. Yeah, I.

[A]

How did they end up surviving after. Did the younger one ever get healthy or to a decent weight?

[B]

Well, he. He's still thin, but he looks much healthier. But you're. You don't. You don't really know. I mean, he clearly is not a mute. I mean, he's talking all the time. But I don't know. I mean, the parents are still around. They're still kind of laughing about the whole thing. I don't know if they're taking care of these two boys. I don't know if they got a job. I don't know. Maybe they're 38 years old.

[A]

I mean, maybe they made some money from the podcast and the doc.

[B]

But it's weird the way it. And it's so weird that they tried this artsy fartsy thing at the end where the kid, like the younger one is, like, walking in the woods. And then they just inputted a, you know, a payphone and it's ringing and he's like, oh, I'll answer it now. Like, even though there's really. You can't Even find a payphone. And you certainly can't find a payphone in a park. So the whole thing is, like, I didn't like the way it ended. I'd like to know what these boys are doing. And they're not boys. They're men now. But I still got the impression as they were talking that they just kind of thought it was funny. And a great little story.

[A]

It's just always so fascinating, whether it is the, you know, the little orphan, the dwarf orphan, Natalie Grace, Natalia Grace, whether it's that story, or when you find out somebody did enter a school and they're like, 35 and they're acting like they're 17. Those type of stories, or where you could just go into a town and somehow take on, like, a whole new identity and just make friends or. Even if it was that movie that I loved years ago, the Black Widow. Do you remember that movie? It was. Yeah, it was just a scripted movie, but it was just like this really attracted. This FBI. Deborah Winger's an FBI agent. She goes to go find if this woman is in fact, a black widow. Because, you know, one minute she's a Southern belle and rich, married to a rich guy, he dies, and then she's a New York socialite, like. And I always just thought, oh, that'd be so interesting if you really were someone that, you know, could be such a chameleon and get people to fall in love with you and. And just make friends, you know, with the local other ladies. And then all of a sudden you're like, well, what really is your background? Like, who really are you? Which is just, you know, the ultimate grifter type of story, which always interests me, too, is someone that can grift and connect and be so charming that you don't question what they're telling you, because you find them, you meet them in a normal place. They seem to assimilate to who you're with or whatever. And then all of a sud, you're like, I feel so stupid. And you're like, well, why would you feel stupid? Why wouldn't you believe the guy that you're dating for three months is the person that he said he was like, why wouldn't you. You know, you're supposed to not believe people when you meet them, like, question that they're not really a Rothschild or whatever. When you hear about the people that lie about that type of stuff, too.

[B]

I think when this. With this case is that, you know, here was this woman who, yeah, maybe she was a little gullible and Kind of believed the story. Cause she wanted to believe the story. But she was a mother figure to these two boys that apparently didn't have a mother figure or certainly not a good one, and really took them under her wings.

[A]

Did she take them into her house? No, she didn't take.

[B]

But she has kids. But she didn't take them into the house. But she found this hostel for them. But she had them over. She celebrated birthday. She had them over for. For, you know, for food. She kind of noticed that they didn't really go crazy on the food. Like there was a. But she didn't know that she suddenly had walked into a play and was given a role that she didn't know was a role. And that the fact that it's just like. It's this idea that you have a right to tell whatever story you want to tell or whatever, and that there's zero consequences of how that story may affect anybody around you. And how do you feel about that? And I mean, here. This woman, I guess she got on a show too, that was on tv, but she took out a chunk of her life to help her fellow man. And for what reason? I mean, the whole thing is just. And then their answer is, well, I mean, the Bible, you know, like. The Bible or whatever would always say,

[A]

like, help those in need. And, you know, you see some and you're. And you think they're like these younger kids that have no direction.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's very interesting.

[B]

I mean, there's. There's no doubt that there's obviously mental illness for probably both of them, and they're probably both dealing with it even to today's date. And I understand that. But it is this crazy story about how. And I think a lot. And I do think we deal with this on a daily basis with a lot of stories and a lot of things that are happening today. I think it was just kind of before its time, quite frankly. But now this story wouldn't surprise me that much. I think it probably surprised people more particularly happening in Canada, in a small town a good 20, 25 years ago. I'll tell you, listening to the parents interviews, I think they're mentally ill. Sorry. But there is something that's not right about that entire family. There's like. It presents perfectly, but there's something very

[A]

off.

[B]

That was just my impression. I just, you know, I don't know. You know, I don't know what's happening there, but. Because if you truly had a child where you. You really did not know how to help them to the point where you had to call child protective services and then they vanish and people are looking for em and they're gone for like, I don't know how long they were gone. I think that was the one thing that I was unclear on. But assuming they were gone for months, if not a year, I mean, and you don't know if your younger child is with your older child and neither one has contacted and that younger child might be alone and is on the brink of like hospitalization. Yeah, I don't know if they were freaking out. It wasn't picked up in this documentary, let's just put it that way.

[A]

But then also maybe it's because, you know, they know they're okay now. So maybe they're just in retrospect, you know, you're not seeing them as they're. The person is missing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also maybe because they're boys, you wouldn't worry about them as much as if two girls took off. And then also back in those days people believe there's such a thing as called like a runaway and they want to leave. And like they're teenagers. And like.

[B]

Yeah, you know what, it's interesting you say that because I do think that even the difference between 20 and 25 years, the overprotectiveness of parents is crazy now. Like we are super overprotective. And you're right. I think there was a time where you just weren't. The average person just wasn't as protective or overprotective I guess. And maybe I'm coming from, you know, I am a bit of a overprotective person. So maybe I'm coming from that perspective.

[A]

Well, this particular story is interesting because it came up and it reminded me of something because recently I had talked about to someone, you know, there are people that went missing, that their killers were never found or whatever the days following 9 11. And I was saying, you know, who knows that someone wasn't like, oh I'm going to kill my wife. Like no one's going to know that I killed my wife during this time. Because ever it's 9 11, like who has time to try to track down, you know, some woman that's missing when the world is in complete turmoil. So there is a similar type of a story that I think was planned based on a hurricane. So it was in Houston and there was a hurricane that was coming. So there was warning this is going to be the worst hurricane or weather, flooding, whatever coming. So they knew it was coming. And there was this beautiful girl and she was Married to her husband, and they had a couple kids, and she was 38, and she was recently licensed realtor and working as a realtor, and they were still living together, but they were actually divorced. And I think they were actually divorced or about to get divorced. And so she, you know, had dated a lot of people. Maybe she was dating people while they were still together, but she was dating a lot of people. And she had spent the night out. You know, they were technically not together at all. Spent the night out with a boyfriend. And there's ring cam footage of her leaving the boyfriend's house in the morning, like, holding her shoes. And then, like, that was the last no one had ever heard from her again. And now this hurricane is, like, going, and all the resources are, like, taking. Rescuing people that are, like, you know, having to get out of their car or boat or whatever. Where is she? And, you know, was she showing a house because she was a realtor? That's always, like, a very risky thing. And so the.

[B]

The

[A]

call in extra people to help on this missing woman because her aunt and uncle call, and they're like, we have not heard from her for, like, two days. The husband's saying he hasn't heard from her either. We're just really concerned. So they bring in the husband, and right off the bat, very suspicious of the husband, you know, because they're not together. She's seeing other guys, and he's like, no, this was the last time I saw her. So then they. They discover that the car was parked at, like, a Motel 6, but now it's like the whole parking lot is flooded, but it is her car, okay? And the keys are left in it, and there's, like, some cash in the. Like, on the council, like, for people to see. And, you know, so it's like, what was she. Did she go into the Motel 6 to, like, some guy? And right now she's like, where is she? And then they. So they keep talking to him. He's like, I don't know where she. You know, this was, like, a special about how they got peop. They get people to confess. So they keep talking to him, and he's like, the husband, and he's just like, no, no. But he stays without any counsel. He stays for, like, hours. And it's just so weird how, like, the guy is, like, this close to him, touching his leg, and keep asking him, like, I don't think you're a bad person. And. Right. So then they bring him back, and they're. They said, look, you know, we Think you had something to do with it? Because we see you in this camera at a gas station across from where the car is parked. You're there, and you take something out of your trunk and you throw it away. You don't get gas. And you look over to the parking lot where the car is. And we think that you're doing that because we think that you killed her. Drove her car to this parking lot, put it in a place, hoping that someone would just steal it, like in a bad area. And then that would add to the mystery of where she is. And you're checking on it, and you're pissed that it hasn't been taken. But it hasn't been taken because now it's, like, soaked in water, you know, because there's like this big hurricane. And he, you know, keeps saying no. And they come back and visit him one more time. And then finally, it was just so interesting the way this, like, ranger. It's just very interesting how these detective male detectives, females too, but this was a male one kind of, you know, ingratiated himself as to be, like, this guy's friend, right? And then he's like, okay, I'm gonna pick you up tomorrow. Is that all right if I pick you up tomorrow? And the guy's like, okay, I'll pick up tomorrow and I'll put you in my car. And then, like, they're taping their recording and he's getting. Driving him around, just being like, you know, I understand. Like, it's hard, you know? And you're with. Finally he does. The guy does confess to the murder. To the murder, okay. And he says. Which the prosecutor, like, did a dance about, because he said, you know, she came in the house and we got in this argument, and then I suffocated. Suffocated her. Suffocated her. And she said the word suffocated. And admitting to suffocating someone then really takes the. Puts it to first degree premeditation. Because that takes, like, minutes or a good amount of time. So you have that time to stop, to remove your hands or remove the pillow or whatever, versus maybe shooting someone or whatever. And then he then, you know, then they get him to take. They get him to take them to the body. And then the one guy goes, you know, I thought maybe since they did share kids together and they were in love and this was a, you know, maybe a crime of passion, but when I saw how he just had thrown her body in a trash bag and, like, threw it in the woods, didn't, like, bury it at all, even, or try to treat the body with any respect. He's like, no, this person just, like, hated her. And anyway, so then he, you know, got life for the rest of his life. But it was just so. It was so, like, it was so sad because the girl was so gorgeous, right? And, you know, 38, and had her whole life ahead of her. And, I mean, I know sometimes, economically, maybe people decide to live with their ex even afterwards or. Right. Do the nesting thing. Do you know what the nesting thing is? That's where, like, they want to make it easier for their kids. So, like, they have the. The home. And then one person leaves, okay. And then the other one comes back and stays with the kids for the weekend while the other one goes somewhere else or whatever. Some people do that, right? I think that is just. Like I said, it's so rare that two people are completely on the same page and, like, have respect for each other and aren't jealous because then, you know, it's hard to keep any kind of privacy of your space and this person's coming back, but then to actually live with someone that you once were with and you're going back and forth coming back from, like, boning your boyfriend. Like, I mean, I'm not saying she deserved it at all. Not at all. But, like, like, those are the kind of things that you shouldn't. You should always, like, be really aware of. Like, especially with men when their ego is at stake, that, like, you know, you. You've cheated on them, you don't want them anymore, and you're now in their face seeing other people.

[B]

Well, it reminds me of that movie, the. Where Jennifer Aniston and,

[A]

you know, the

[B]

guy from Dodgeball, Vince Vaughn, they're in a relationship and then they break up, but they can't afford to leave, so then they're in it. Do you remember this movie?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And so I forget the name of the movie, but it's comedy, obviously, but it kind of. Then she's. You know, they both. You know, they're both driving each other crazy. She brings dates home. You know, he's. She comes home, and he's doing the same thing that they always hated, which was, you know, he's with his bros or whatever, but, like, they just get more and more angry with each other, and if they just simply got out of each other's hair and they didn't have to look at it, it's like, why are you driving each other even more crazy? And it sounds to me like in this particular case, that you were talking about they were getting divorced. I don't know. You know, I don't know why, but apparently they. Maybe they weren't separated yet, but they were. But that's when it's like sometimes you almost really do need a clean slate, you know, or if you're separated, you don't see each other very often or I mean, really make sure that you know what's going on. It's pretty clear that he was very, very jealous.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I mean, when I hear, even with suffocation, when I hear a case like that, I still think it could be a crime of passion. I don't think when I think of premeditation and first degree murder, when you're really looking at it for proving purposes, I think there's gotta be some sort of planning. I don't really see a suffocation as being rising with the level of planning. I feel like. Yeah, you just.

[A]

I think there is planning though, because I think of leaving the car and doing that whole thing adds to the planning. Trying to get it stolen.

[B]

Well, that's after the fact, but that's after the fact. So when she, when he left the car, he'd already killed her. So I'm only looking at the time of like, like, for example, in the moment. In the moment. Like if it happened in the moment, let's say they had a fight. Did he decide that morning to do it? If they had a fight and he was pissed off and maybe he was gonna beat her up or he, you know, give her a piece of his mind or whatever. And it got to the point where he got really angry and let's say he did start to choke her. I mean, some of them, you're in so much passion, you are not thinking, I know I'm going to do this and I'm going to stop. Because now she's looking like she's in pain. I mean, she could have a heart attack in the middle of that suffocation. It could not just be from suffocation. So I don't think when you go to choke someone, you're necessarily saying, I'm going to kill this person to the point where I would find premeditation. That's just me, you know, I'm not saying that they couldn't try and try a case like that. And I. But I do think that when you talk about the COVID up, it certainly goes to what we would call an aggravating circumstance as far as sentencing goes, you know, he might be doing the same extra time anyway. Or at least the max on, let's say a second degree murder or even a manslaughter. Because, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now he's covering it up and he's hoping that we can get rid of the car. That we could assume then, you know, his argument would have been, I haven't seen her. If she was with that guy, she ran off with that guy, or that guy did something, or she just doesn't care about her children or all the things that they've, you know, said, or she had kids or whatever. And that unfortunately, you know, how funny is. How weird is that?

[A]

I mean, it started. It started out where she didn't pick up the kids from school. That's where.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So it was like.

[B]

But yeah, pretty gross that he would, like, then take the car and say, I'm just. And you know, and then essentially. Essentially what he thought probably. Oh, and he'd also.

[A]

There was also video of him buying a bicycle. So they're like, that's how he did it. He drove the car to the kind of Shady Motel 6 and then took the bike out of the trunk and then was able to ride the bike away.

[B]

Oh, wow. Well, I mean, in cases like that too, if that was his cover up, that kind of stuff really pisses me off. Because then there would be somebody that was desperate enough to steal that car because they saw the money and they saw the keys in it. And then when they get that key, that's the. Here's a guy who's just your typical burglar, robber, whatever. And now this particular person who probably has a. You know, I'm just using this hypothetical person who has a rap sheet is now gonna be the person that might be spending the rest of his life in jail, especially if they never find the body.

[A]

So, you know, and I also think

[B]

there's a lot of ego in this. Because when you think about it, when you're talking about the interrogation, there has to be so much ego with this guy. Because really he's. You're telling me that at no time you didn't think that you needed an attorney?

[A]

I mean, he would go like 11 and a half hours, and then they had to let him leave. Cause they still hadn't admitted it. And I'm like, that's pretty incredible that you went eleven and a half hours without going, I need an attorney. Enough of this.

[B]

But then he goes home and he says, yes, you can pick me up again. And he still thinks, I'm gonna get away with this.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I mean, it's not like, you know, and you can always say, did you

[A]

offer him an attorney?

[B]

You know, no, because he was playing the good cop, bad cop play. But you just kind of think at no time at all, you never. You didn't think about calling like, your buddy Joe and say, hey, Jo, you know, Marilyn's missing and they think it's me. And I don't know. Don't. Do you think I should maybe, you know, call 1-800-Lawyer and just get some advice? I mean, it's just shocking to me that nobody thinks that, you know, maybe I might want to exercise my constitutional rights and just say, hey, I'd like to try to get a lawyer.

[A]

Do you think, as in general, as an attorney, you always hear like, you know, the prosecution is thrilled when they get. Get a confession. And if, in fact, they're not trying to say it's a coerced confession, it's, yes, he did it. Yes, he did it. Could it ever be used in the criminal's advantage that they did in fact, confess? Even if it took the third day to say, as a defense attorney, to try to get them less time to say, hey, look, you know, they did admit to it.

[B]

Oh, sure. And that's.

[A]

That does help sometimes.

[B]

Well, only in sentencing, obviously. Not in guilt phase. Right. But. But, yeah, absolutely. It's a. Yeah. And that's kind. And unfortunately, that's kind of what the cops do when they play that good cop, bad cop. They say, hey, we know you did it. Why don't you just admit to it? We can talk to the DAs. We can't promise anything, but maybe they'll work on giving you less time. That's what they do. That's part of their negotiation to. To do that. So.

[A]

Yes. Huh. Well, this was really fun to talk to you and get your opinion on these crazy stories and just tell everybody where they can find you. We had a really viral video of where I was telling you on my Instagram because we were enjoying our Sunday in Palm Springs. And you over the weekend, you were like, heather, you just. Maybe you just need to take a break from your phone. So I took a break from my phone for three hours, and that's when I found out that aliens are real. Ghislaine is being held somewhere else or enjoying her life. And I think there was one other thing. And then I said, now, what do you want to order to drink? And you said, something very strong. So everyone really enjoyed that. And everyone really enjoyed the video that you did of me ice skating. I just put that one out. Fake ice skating in my. In my bathroom.

[B]

Yes. That was. No, it was really fun. We had such a good weekend. I mean, I am on Instagram. That's probably the easiest way. I'm working on making my presence on social media better than it is right now. I admit, it's a little weak. I'm also on TikTok, and obviously, Shannon Goldstein. I'm a lawyer, but also, you can read. Our website is michaelgoldstein.net yes.

[A]

And Shannon's husband made very good steaks when I was there, and it was delicious. So that they also make really, really good steaks besides being great attorneys.

[B]

You're so sweet.

[A]

Thank you, Yellow Flower. Love you. Bye. Thank you.

[B]

Love you, too. Bye.

[A]

Bye. Sam.