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Darvo, Denise Richards, & Decoding Courtroom Lies with Michele Locke
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- [00:00]
Michelle Locke
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I'm very excited to introduce our newest guest to Juicy Crimes. First time here, Michelle Locke, who is got a great post podcast called Love Lust Pod. Wait, what is it?
- [00:26]
Michelle Locke
Love Lost, Love, Lust law. Because I do. I do divorce law. So where there is love, there is definitely lust. And you definitely get the law thrown in because where there is love, there is marriage and then there's divorce.
- [00:38]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And besides being a private attorney, you're a mother, you are a divorcee, and you are a former family law judge, which I find fascinating. So I'm so excited to talk to you about so many different things. You are in Texas, which of course every state has different laws and rules. And you were just saying before we started that you've sat on many cases that does involve the death penalty. Because Texas is. Don't mess with Texas.
- [01:11]
Michelle Locke
No, Texas, there's a couple comedians that will make jokes that like, Texas has like the express lane, kind of like Florida to the death sentence. I mean, really, it does. And my ex husband was a prosecutor for 30 years and tried 11 or 12 capital murder cases. So I've actually been in the courtroom four or five times with a death sentence has been handed down. And that's a, that's an experience that it leaves something with you.
- [01:39]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah, I find it so interesting because, you know, of course there's always, what if there's a doubt? You know, there's. You think about the people that may have gone to the chair before DNA. And also I almost feel like if someone is fighting their innocence, if they're on death row, there's so many more lawyers and charities and stuff that will fight for that person because they're going to die. So you almost have more things at your advantage to fight it than if you just got a life sentence. That just doesn't seem like the priority for those. The Innocence Project and things like that usually go for death penalty people.
- [02:25]
Michelle Locke
And you know what's interesting from my perspective on the death penalty side of it, is that a lot of the times those cases aren't being tried because the guilt innocence is the issue. They're being tried to avoid the death sentence because in Texas, I mean, a jury has to hand down the death sentence as a separate punishment phase of the trial to assess the death penalty. But yeah, so part of it is not necessarily that they're trying to win whether they did it or not. A lot of times they're just trying to avoid a death sentence and just get a life sentence, which is the other interesting side of it.
- [03:00]
Host of Juicy Crimes
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- [05:10]
Michelle Locke
There's lots. But here's I think the big takeaway that people need to remember and is if you're going to court to get the he's wrong or she's wrong or she did me bad or he did me bad. If you are going to court for that reason, well then you're going to leave court unhappy and you're also going to leave court likely not getting anywhere close to what you wanted because especially if there's kids involved. Because no offense to the litigants, what the court truly cares about is what's best for these kids, right? Because the kids didn't ask for their parents to go through the divorce. The kids didn't ask for their two parents to. You know, I was talking about family law is good people behave behaving badly, whereas criminal law is bad people behaving on their, like their best behavior. And so you really get people when you've got money and emotions and love and your life and your time with your kids at stake, people just, they kind of lose their, their minds to some extent because it's so high pressure and high stress. So when you go into court, what you need to focus on is not what happened in the past, not what got you there. What you need to focus on is how that person's bad behavior could potentially affect and impact parenting and parenting decisions. Because that's what the courts care about. What they want to see is not so much that he or she was this terrible person because clearly y' all are getting divorced, not getting along. But what the court wants to know is how those behaviors could impact co parenting or actual possession or access times to either the detriment or harm of the children. And if you can show that, then the court's going to say, okay, well that makes much more sense as opposed to he did this to me, he did this to me, he did this to me. That matters to some extent. But if that is your whole focus, then they're going to be able to flip the script on you and make you look like the crazy bitter ex who shouldn't have time with the kids or as much time with the kids.
- [07:02]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And you were saying, like in California, where I'm from, it's a no fault divorce. So it doesn't matter if someone had an affair or multiple affairs. You know, that doesn't matter. But in Texas you said that you're actually one of a few states or the only state that does a trial
- [07:20]
Michelle Locke
state that will do jury trials for family law. And so we will do custody jury trials to determine sole managing conservatorship or joint juries will also decide geographic restriction. And so like the, the juries can control really who ends up with the kids primarily. What's interesting though is that the jury decides those issues, but the judge decides possession or access, child support and rights and duties. So it's a hot mess no matter what side you do it on in Texas. But yeah, we still do jury trials for family law and divorces, which I think there are pros and cons to that. But yeah, it's the wild, wild west. A Little bit out here.
- [08:00]
Host of Juicy Crimes
So in that if you were to have a trial and a woman had an affair just because I feel like people are always going to be less, are going to be more judgmental of a woman who cheats than a man who cheats because it's like, oh well, a man thinks with his dick and blah blah, blah. But if a woman cheats, it's like Scarlet Letter A, you know, from, from that book, the, you know, the Scarlet Letter. And so have you ever seen that happen where a jury does turn on the woman because she has had an affair and it's presented in ev.
- [08:37]
Michelle Locke
You know, that usually comes out for the most part because Texas is a no fault state right now. We can allege adultery and we do in some cases, but the adultery has to be the reason for the breakup. Right? But you actually have to prove the actual sex act. Like you have to prove there was actual adultery, not just hinting around it. And usually when I've got bad facts and I'm in a jury trial, I'm gonna get out, I'm gonna get in front of those bad facts from the, from the jump. I'm going to tell the jury, look, you're going to hear this, this, this and this. But you know what, at the end of the day, it doesn't affect the parenting decisions because it doesn't. I mean it's. And now what we're seeing the trend on is people doing only fans and then that being the basis for oh, they shouldn't have primary custody of the kids because they're doing only fans. And that, that shouldn't factor in. I'm like, if, unless you're, I mean if you're doing it in front of the kids, that's a whole different discussion. But you should not have your kids because you engage in a consenting adult forum that you're allowed to do. I don't know.
- [09:44]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Has there any, anytime been a father who is trying to get custody of his kids because the wife did onlyfans but then he's also asking for child support and alimony from the onlyfans income.
- [09:58]
Michelle Locke
So Texas is an anti alimony state. Texas is if you are a stay at home parent, you will get screwed. Because Texas, there's a presumption against alimony. Like, and if a court orders it, a court has to order it for the shortest period of time and the lowest amount of money possible so that you can meet your what they call basic minimum reasonable like living needs. So it's a nothing standard. I mean nothing. But do I see it where. I mean, I actually tried a case where dad exactly wanted that he wanted custody of his daughter because his ex wife and her new husband, I guess he was. Were engaging in OnlyFans content. And I mean that it was one of our first trials via Zoom. And to listen to the. Because, I mean, when we're on Zoom also back. Because we've opened Courts act, so every court has to be open to the public. So we were streaming these. Some of these hearings on Zoom. On Zoom that had detailed pictures and detailed histories for the world to see of what was going on in this, like in this OnlyFans case. But they couldn't show that it was happening while she had possession of the kids. So he lost and should have lost.
- [11:17]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Now, was that when you say it was our first Zoom trial? So how can a jury do Zoom? Can a jury do Zoom?
- [11:24]
Michelle Locke
Oh, we did here in Texas. We absolutely jury trials via Zoom.
- [11:29]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Because it was Covid or what, huh?
- [11:31]
Michelle Locke
Yeah. And it was until. It wasn't until we opened back up, but they would deliver, I think, iPads to all the potential jurors and. Oh, no. Oh, no. That we had Zoom jury trials.
- [11:42]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Wow.
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Michelle Locke
And that's a whole other discussion.
- [11:46]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Well, let's get into some bigger cases that you kind of have a strong opinion and knowledge of. You were bringing up the other day when we were talking about really what Denise Richards has been through with her two cases. And let's just talk a little bit about that. I felt so badly when it came out about what she'd been through with her second husband, Aaron.
- [12:18]
Michelle Locke
I got lots of words about him. I really.
- [12:19]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah. Tell me what you think.
- [12:22]
Michelle Locke
Denise and I actually did two episodes on her. Cause I did one with her divorce from Charlie. She's a fascinating woman. She is a survivor. She is a woman that puts her kids needs first and did everything she could, at least in Charlie's case, to protect Charlie. Right. Whether it was warranted or not, she did whatever she could to protect him and his image. Because at that time, he was the breadwinner supporting the households. Right. Now, some people will say that wasn't a good thing, that, you know, you should take all your abusers to court and show the world who they are. But the reality is, is the higher you get up in, I guess, the social echelon of society, the harder it is to have those things become public for a multitude of reasons. The judgment that comes along with it, whether you're. I mean, even if you're innocent. They would look at her. Well, why did you put up with that? And the reality is, is unless you are living in that person's sh. You have no right to judge what they did or how they did it to survive, quite frankly. But then what I thought was interesting about her was that with Aaron, she's like, nope, we're going to court. Because he engaged, I think, almost immediately in Darvo. I mean, he almost immediately said, no black eyes. Were some plastic surgery or some procedure I didn't do. It wasn't me. But yet when the evidence all came out, the court did what? Granted a protective order or restraining order. I think you'll call it something different out there.
- [13:57]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Tell everybody what Darvo means again.
- [14:00]
Michelle Locke
Okay, now you're gonna make me define it. And it's. Now I know.
- [14:04]
Host of Juicy Crimes
I feel like it's. Each letter stands for something, right?
- [14:07]
Michelle Locke
It does. No, it does. It's direct. Hang on, let me pull it up. Because I actually deal with Darbo meeting. It stands for deny, attack, reverse victim and offender. And so at Darbo really means. And this. And this is. I mean, Aaron Phypers did it perfectly. He's like, he denied it. I didn't do it. I didn't do it. Then he attacked her, right? And then it was, no, she got that from plastic surgery. No, she's the terrible person. She's in all these things.
- [14:33]
Host of Juicy Crimes
He brought up that she was cheating, too.
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Michelle Locke
Oh, yeah, because it's the slut factor, right? Like, I. Well, that's a whole other issue. But then he tried to play the victim. Why? He's like, oh, well, she's trying to kick my elderly parents out of the house we reside in. And there we are. She's our only means of support. We can't support ourselves. We need her to support us, et cetera. I mean, so then he became the victim, and then he goes. And then we find out he's actually the offender. But what he tried to do is make her the bad person, the bad actor. And all she did was try and say, he gave me these. And those pictures were awful. Like, the amount of force. The amount of force to do that kind of damage. That's not a little bit, y'. All. It's not a little bit.
- [15:24]
Host of Juicy Crimes
No.
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Michelle Locke
I've had filler and other shit done to my face, and I've gotten black eyes from. It doesn't look like that. No.
- [15:33]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And, you know, we saw it when we watched the show. He got in an argument with one of the ladies, which also was really uncomfortable because most men wouldn't act that way to someone that they just met, especially a female. And also just clearly not caring that cameras are catching it either. And then she again, wanting to protect him, was like, let's go, let's go. And they're walking back and she's like, just stop talking. We're miked. And he's like, I'm going to fucking squeeze your hand until it falls off or something like, really awful. And we just thought he was a dick, you know, we didn't think that it went as bad as it went. And you wonder, you know, and his history was kind of interesting. He was like, he was either married or he was dating this soap star. And then he went, Nicolette Sheridan. Right, right. But there was also this. The soap star from Young and Restless, Tracy Bergman, he dated and then it was like he was dating her. And then he went to a party like two doors down, like she had a beautiful Malibu house. And then two doors down with Nicollette Sheridan. This is all alleged, rumored. He meets Nicolette Sheridan and then gets with her. And, you know, so I feel like he was one of those. He was just traipsing his way through Malibu because he's charming and good looking. And then she goes to his. Whatever thing that he does, whatever you
- [17:06]
Michelle Locke
want to call it his business. We'll put that in quotation marks.
- [17:10]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Right. And they are immediately attracted to each other and fall for each other. I do think he was like, very good with her younger daughter who has, you know, some disabilities. I think he was like, very good with her. And I think that kind of made her also fall in love with him. But. And then when she was in it, I think since she'd been in it before, I wonder if someone like that, it's like they fall into that protecting, hiding. And also just there's so many women that are like, I'm so embarrassed to say I'm getting divorced again. And it's almost like they stay in the situation that isn't as bad as their first situation. They stay in their second situation, which turns out to be worse, and they stay in there longer because essentially she's married to Aaron longer than she was to Charlie because of that and because being a public person and the image and everything that everyone would know looks and you want to just keep going, well, maybe I can fix this.
- [18:16]
Michelle Locke
Well, and what you find, and that's why I think what he did when he was being recorded was so interesting, is because typically abusers try and keep their stuff behind closed doors. And if he was willing to do
- [18:29]
Host of Juicy Crimes
that, just that what was the recording that they had?
- [18:33]
Michelle Locke
Well, no, the one that you talked about when he was mic'd up and talked about.
- [18:36]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Okay, sorry. I thought.
- [18:38]
Michelle Locke
Yeah, no, no, yeah. So when he's like, knows he's being recorded, not only does he know. Cause he's miked, she reminds him he's miked, and he still continues in that behavior. Can you imagine what happened behind closed doors?
- [18:53]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Right.
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Michelle Locke
I mean, and that, to me is the sad part. And if you look at Denise's history in particular, like, she stepped in with Charlie and Brooke and took in those two boys.
- [19:08]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Right.
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Michelle Locke
I mean, she didn't have to. Like, she is a woman that really has tried to do good always. And there's also, I would suspect, I mean, I don't know her because I'm just an attorney from Texas, but I observe people. And I would be willing to bet there's an element to her of she could help. She could help fix, she could help repair. And I think you saw some of that with Charlie. Like, she always tried to help, and I think to some extent tried to help to a detriment physically to herself. I mean, I really do. And I think she may have done the same with Erin. The other problem is, and it really is for successful women, and you know, this is. We are judged much harsher when it comes to, well, how could you be so stupid? How could you do it again? Yeah, really, really, guys, I'm like, these people that do this, that do, like what Aaron does, are master manipulators. They are great at getting you to believe that they are wonderful until you get married. And then once you get married, then the real stuff starts coming out, and then you're stuck. And you don't want to have to go through because as we all know, you've got TMZ and everyone down there, and all the court records are public records. Anyone can pull that divorce or petition and post it on social media. Anyone. And so she may not have wanted to go through that and thought, well, maybe we can fix it. You know, it's. I wouldn't want to live in her shoes. And I'm sure as heck not going to pass judgment on someone that's been through what she has and through it all has shown nothing but exceptional character in taking care of others around her. Yeah.
- [20:51]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And you know, now you see so many times when there is a level of just verbal abuse, but oftentimes worse domestic abuse. Now, because people have so many cameras around the outside of their home, but also inside their home. I guess people do that because of a nanny or something. I mean, we've never had interior, you
- [21:15]
Michelle Locke
know, interior in my house. And I can't tell you how often ring cameras are evidence in my divorce cases.
- [21:21]
Host of Juicy Crimes
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Michelle Locke
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Host of Juicy Crimes
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Michelle Locke
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Michelle Locke
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Host of Juicy Crimes
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- [23:39]
Michelle Locke
Oh, all the time. Because here's the beauty of it, or disadvantage, depending on your perspective, is everyone forgets they're there. And so they're open, on display in your house, Everyone knows they're there and you forget and you forget that they're recording. And so what I see happen all the time is someone goes out of town and the mister or mistress comes over and they forget it's on the ring camera. I mean it's like stuff like, guys, you gotta be smarter than that. Or they remember the ring camera on the front door, so they bring them around the back, forgetting that the back camera in the house that covers that door is going to catch them too. God bless people.
- [24:27]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah, I mean the electronic evidence of a marriage is like something when you think about 20 years ago, you know, and recording people and, or even when you think of like a Nicole Brown Simpson, you know, the most that she could do was take those photos from one night when O.J. attacked her, put it in a safe deposit box and hope that if something was to happen to her, someone would open that safety deposit box and it would help. Well, in the end it didn't help. But you know, think about if, if they, if she was in that relationship today and had her phone on her all the time, what they would have found, what they would have found in that phone from the arguments to, you know, secretly recording arguments. Now if something is secretly recorded where it's not on the ring cam, where you're like, hey, we both knew there was a ring cam in this house. It's like someone just, you know, has their phone next to them or a recording device, then is there a problem with that being used for a divorce?
- [25:33]
Michelle Locke
Okay, so that's interesting. That's going to depend on the state you live in. And I'll give you, for example, Texas is a one party consent state. So I can have my phone being recorded in my pocket, hidden with my boyfriend, my spouse, whoever it is, I want to, because I've consented to it and that becomes completely admissible in our courts. In Texas, not every court is a one party consent state. And I venture to think most probably are not single party consent states. So quite often in our divorce cases we have secret recordings because the person that recorded it had consented to it.
- [26:17]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Right? Because I was talking about this on a recent show about Tom Sandoval. And Tom Sandoval in getting in his argument with his girlfriend who he then was granted a temporary restraining order against, he, you see him on the ring cam in the backyard and him going, are you recording me? Are you recording me? And, you know, getting pissed that she's doing that. He's like, you know, you don't have my consent or whatever he said, which is interesting because that was a whole issue that happened with the Rachel Raquel who had the affair with. Is that she was very upset that they had a sexy FaceTime moment. And he either recorded it or she claimed she didn't know that he recorded it. And therefore Ariana saw it on his phone. And she believed Ariana shared or showed it to other people, which Ariana denied. So there was a lawsuit there. I don't know what happened with it, but yeah. So I. In those type of. In that case, I guess in California, he's like saying, you can't film me because it's in the home where if you're out on a street, anybody can film you.
- [27:29]
Michelle Locke
Yeah. I mean, there's the. The reasonable expectation of privacy. Like if you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your home. Right. That. That prevents from recording. But if you're out there in public, fair game, like investigators, if you leave your trash on the curb, they can go through your trash. That happens all the time. Right. Because you put it out in public domain, so it's no longer yours. But yeah, no, it's. It is interesting to see how this has really changed, at least for me, how we try cases. Because I started trying cases back in 2002, and boy, has the practice of law changed a lot since. Even when I started practicing. And now it's really. It's evidence, evidence, evidence, and it's all digital. And so now because of AI, we're having to deal with what's real, what's not. So I've actually had to hire some experts in some of my jury trials to authenticate videos because there's allegations that they're either deepfakes or AI or whatever, but. Oh, no, like. And now we've got. And that. And know you. You're not talking about family law litigation being expensive. Add in retaining experts to show that something's authentic completely raises the cost of litigation even more. Sorry. Let me get her.
- [28:44]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yes, I'm sure your dog is cute.
- [28:49]
Michelle Locke
She does not listen.
- [28:51]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yes, I mean, I thought. I've thought about that too. With AI that, you know, in the past, a star could be canceled or whatever because someone has a recording of them casually saying the N word or something like that. Yes, correct. And now someone could say, well, that's A.I. i never said that. And literally, A.I. can emulate any celebrity's voice. So who's to say, you know, how can you really prove it unless 20 witnesses saw you say it that night? You know, I mean, I. I would think that that would be an easy go to if some. If something like that popped up. You know, mostly it's like an old tweet that you did, and you're like, Well, I was 16. And sometimes people care. Sometimes they seem like they kind of stopped caring. But, yeah, that's a hard thing to. It's a hard thing to prove. And that's another one of those things that, like, I feel like back in the early DNA days of the O.J. trial. So if it's too scientific, if it stops from being interesting and juicy, they have to walk you through all the reasons why this DNA is important, because it means that only 1% or whatever could be it. Three days of that, the jury has, like, lost interest.
- [30:16]
Michelle Locke
Oh, because they're falling asleep. Yeah.
- [30:18]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And so I wonder, is the AI explanation a little dull or too technical?
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Michelle Locke
It is. And I have always followed, when I try cases, I follow the kiss method. Keep it simple, stupid. Because you really, the more you overcomplicate it, the more you're going to lose everyone that's listening to your arguments. And so you really. I mean, so has the AI stuff become too technical? Oh, absolutely. But now I'm seeing, like, I had a jury trial that we did, this was two years ago, where the dad had an AI Fairy girlfriend and was seeking custody of his son and also had a real girlfriend at the same time and was also engaging in OnlyFans. And so then you wonder about the psychology behind someone that's engaging in all those things but still wants custody of their kid.
- [31:09]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Like, and so what happened?
- [31:13]
Michelle Locke
Believe it or not, the jury gave the guy custody. I had, Mom. And I still can't figure that one out. I can't figure that one out. I really can't. Like, I was like, wait, what?
- [31:23]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Wait, let's get back to the AI Fairy girlfriend spot. What do you mean? It looked like a, like a little. Amina, you can.
- [31:33]
Michelle Locke
There's a website for this dog. Hang on.
- [31:35]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Okay. Sorry. Manet, come get your dog.
- [31:39]
Michelle Locke
Sorry. No, this AI Fairy website thing is real. And you can pay to have this AI Fairy woman, or whatever it is you design her to be, to message you. And you pay a subscription for so many, like, text messages per month from this AI Fairy girlfriend that you help create works.
- [32:01]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Cause it's like, you know it's fake, but it still makes you feel good that a girl's like, hey, Daddy, I'M so wet for you right now.
- [32:12]
Michelle Locke
People are having relationships with ChatGPT. You think I'm kidding?
- [32:19]
Host of Juicy Crimes
No, I know, I know.
- [32:20]
Michelle Locke
I mean like we have gone so far left of like any sense of what is wrong with you people and it's not. But I'm like, why do you have a relationship with a AI? Like it's not real, you can't touch it, you can't sleep next to it, you can't fulfill you physically. What's the point?
- [32:43]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah, I guess it's just enough. I mean, I guess it's the same thing when somebody is having an affair with someone who claims to be, you know, Magnum P.I. what's his name, Tom Selleck, to like an older woman, which that was a tragic story with. Happened with this woman who believed that Tom Selleck was writing her and she was giving him all her money. And the husband was so humiliate, humiliated and didn't. And her kids couldn't convince her that he wasn't real and she was going around and just still trying to get him money. And I almost think at some point the person might know it's not real or not who they say they are, but it's just like, I just don't want this to end because I haven't had this feeling in so long. Maybe they've been in a loveless marriage, maybe the husband's been mean, maybe they just haven't had any kind of excitement in their life. And they're just like, oh, to hear that ding. And it's a text, hey baby girl, can you send me a money card for $25 or whatever. And they're just like, I don't care. Like I don't want the fantasy to be over with. I don't want Santa Claus to be over with. You know, I want it to, I want to still believe.
- [34:06]
Michelle Locke
You know, I think there is for some people, I think life gets so dark that you do look for something to hang on to like that that gives you hope. And I, you know, I'm never one to say don't hang on to what, you know, gives you hope and gives you the ability to keep going on the next day. But I mean it's, it's just sad. Like, it's just sad like this guy had a five year girlfriend, like long term relationship that was still going to onlyfans and then paying on onlyfans for the gfe, which is the girlfriend experience. And so like, and I had his messages and they were introduced into evidence and the messages were like, oh, how was your Christmas? Like, normal conversations that he was paying for, but he had a girlfriend. Like, I. And then I just.
- [34:55]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And the jury. Why didn't the jury think that the mom was more fit and deserving of it?
- [35:02]
Michelle Locke
So I don't think it was a matter of fit, I think. And the jury did. So we're allowed to talk to the juries after they deliberate if they want to talk to us. And this jury did not want to talk to us. And it was interesting because my perspective, you know, I don't lose very often, but I lost this one. And so you go back and kind of like think, well, what did they. What did they miss that I didn't see? Or what did I miss? And really, I think what they decided was mom had had enough with this kid. Like, mom had had this child for 11 years, basically uninterrupted. And I think the jury just gave dad a chance. I mean, I think at the end of the day, that's what it came down to. I really do.
- [35:43]
Host of Juicy Crimes
In your child family law experience. Now, it is my understanding in California at least, that when it comes to custody, when a child turns 13, the decision is solely up to them if they want to leave their mom's house and live with their dad or vice versa. Is that. Am I correct in that? And how does that work?
- [36:09]
Michelle Locke
So that is. It's a misnomer. That happens in Texas all the time, too. But for us, it's age 12. And the law in Texas says at age 12, a kid can tell the court who it wants to be the primary parent. And if a child is 12 or older, our statutes say that the judge has to interview the children or the child is 12 or older. But the court does not have to talk to them when it comes to possession or access. So they can just talk to the child about, like, okay, who do you want to live with? And I will tell you, I think the courts, generally speaking, will go along with what an older child wants to do, provided it's not because they're going to go to dad's, because dad lets them drink and get high all the time. Right? But there's still. The other parent has the right to see the child. It's child support continues until it's a court order that says you have to keep paying no matter what. And visitation's the same thing. Just because a child says, I'm gonna live with the other parent doesn't mean that that child doesn't have to go see the other parent. Right? There's still gonna be Possession or access, there's still gonna be a court order for some of it. The issue is, and I think most people misunderstand it, they all, they like to call it the teenage possession schedule. Like teenagers get to pick. No, they don't. They're supposed to follow court order too. And as a parent, you were supposed to ensure that court order is followed. It just becomes much more difficult when you've got a 6 foot 2, 16 year old boy that's telling you he ain't doing anything.
- [37:33]
Host of Juicy Crimes
I mean, it's true.
- [37:35]
Michelle Locke
Yeah. I mean there's not much you can do when your kids, when you look up at your kid and he says I'm not going, and you say okay, what are you gonna do?
- [37:44]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And what about when the parent who has possession of the child or you know, majority custody is like, I've had it, and calls the, the parent who only has it every other weekend and is like, you know what, he can go live with you. And what if that parent is like, no, thank you.
- [38:06]
Michelle Locke
That's always the, the, the issue of being the primary parent. I deal with it all the time. And I tell my clients, they may have the right to possession, but you don't have the right to force them to exercise it. And so it is a right for them to exercise is not a mandatory thing. And so literally there's nothing you can do to make them take that child if you're the primary parent, unless they say, oh yeah, I'll take them, but other than that you can't. I mean it's that, that's the one hazard. Because what I hear often, well, he didn't come pick him up for his weekend, so what, what can we do about it? I'm like, nothing.
- [38:47]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Right? That's true.
- [38:49]
Michelle Locke
Nothing, I said. So I always advise. And, and what you'll find are on difficult co parenting cases, you will find that the one parent who has the personality disorder, who's just the asshole, let's just call them what they are, will intentionally screw with your plans by not following a possession schedule. They'll pick up as they come and come and go and come and go as they please because then you can't get a stable schedule. And so I tell people in those types of cases, I said just plan on being a single parent and if they happen to pick up, then great, but don't count, don't make your plans around them exercising because what happened?
- [39:29]
Host of Juicy Crimes
That's really good advice actually, because, you know, and also it's probably, of course, it's all, let's say it's the mom, it's still more on your shoulders. You won't get that every other weekend off or whatever. But also by kind of accepting that he's a dick and he's not going to be there. You still don't want your child to feel rejected.
- [39:55]
Michelle Locke
Correct.
- [39:55]
Host of Juicy Crimes
So you're gonna, you should try to just protect them and be like, you know what, he's busy. It's not his thing. He loves you. We're gonna have a fun weekend. And it must be very annoying then, because, you know, here you are, the parent doing everything, and then your kid does get sassy and get rude to you because you're his most comfortable soft source. So he will be his misbehaved self and then be all excited and come home bragging from the one first weekend out of five that the fucker picked him up for. And then is like, we went to this and then we went to Monster Jam and da. And you just have to be like, great. You just have to know that it's the long haul. It's the long haul and they always get it. The kids always eventually see the truth. But if you're the one pointing them out, pointing it out, then it could feel sad and like their child's being rejected from someone that they want so much from.
- [40:50]
Michelle Locke
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Host of Juicy Crimes
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Michelle Locke
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Host of Juicy Crimes
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- [41:47]
Michelle Locke
I wouldn't point it out because I think ultimately if you do that, it'll end up getting used against you in court. I mean, I've seen it happen. Yeah. And so. And it's frustrating to be. And it's usually the women. I mean, that's just it's usually the women that are the primary parents, and some men are occasionally, but usually it's the women. And you would rather have them. I know it's a lot of work. I mean, I've got my 11 year old 99% of the time. And you know what? At the end of the day, I'll take that and I just plan my life around it because at least I know when he's with me, he's cared for, he's got everything he needs. And then I also know that I never question him about his time with his dad. My question is always, did you have a good time? Yes. Okay, great. I'm so glad you did because it's just, it's not his fault. It's not his fault that his dad and I can't get along. He didn't ask to be brought into this. And so my job as his parent is to protect his childhood as much as possible. Because we all have our own issues from our own childhood. And if we could save our kids from having to go through those same traumas, then maybe we did something right. Yes.
- [42:58]
Host of Juicy Crimes
I remember when we talked yesterday, you said the thing I really learned and took from most when you were the judge, the family court is just to figure out who's lying to me and who's not lying to me. Can you speak a little more on that?
- [43:14]
Michelle Locke
It sure can. So my. So My kids are 23, 20, and 11. No, 11 was an accent. I want a girl before I got too old. And God said, no, you get another white chromosome. Okay, fine. And I'll take it. So I got three boys, but when my older two were younger, I would tell them, like, do you know what mommy does? I'm like, well, you're a judge. I said, no, no, no, no. I said, yes, that is, sure, I'm a judge. But I figure out each and every day who is telling me the truth and who's lying to me. And I said, so do me a favor, I'm really good at it. Don't lie to me. And so that was like, just tell me the truth, guys, because I'm gonna get to the bottom of it and you're not gonna like the manner and method by which I cross examine you to get to the bottom of it. And in fact, I actually had a. So my oldest had a propensity to lie about everything related to school. And so we were at a restaurant, Mexican restaurant that we always went to, and I was basically cross examining him and this man who was eating by Himself leaned over to me and said, ma', am, you need to be more of a mother and less of an attorney to your son.
- [44:18]
Host of Juicy Crimes
What did you say?
- [44:20]
Michelle Locke
Well, as my son started sinking in his chair because he's like, ooh, this is not gonna go good for him, I looked at him and I said, it's interesting to see that you waited to say that to me until my husband left the table. Number one. Number two, I can clearly tell while you're eating alone, have a good.
- [44:37]
Host of Juicy Crimes
That is good.
- [44:38]
Michelle Locke
But I was like, don't tell me how to parent. I'm like, I know my kid. I know when he's lying. And I'm gonna have to cross examine. I'm sorry. But yeah, so I, and I, and I look back and I talk about it some now on, on my podcast, but I talk about, look, when I was a judge, I handled over 5,000 cases. And that was just in the protective order court. And so if you think about it, it's two witnesses goes two parties for each case. Usually there's two attorneys for each case. And then you've got w. So you've got a minimum of four people in the courtroom every single case. Multiply that by 5,000, multiply that by just the other witnesses that came in to testify. And then you add that into who I've cross examined on the stand in private practice and just doing it day in and day out. And so you get really good at assessing people. Now, I may not be able to assess them very well for my own dating life, but I can assess them pretty well professionally to know whether they're full of shit or not. And that's why when I do cross examination, I think it's a waste when attorneys just ask yes or no. It's the biggest waste of a cross. Because with a cross, if you start asking some open ended questions, you can get liars to lie. And you know who's gonna lie, you know who's gonna double down, you know who's gonna triple down. And so you let them and then you just team up, duck, hit it out of the park.
- [46:00]
Host of Juicy Crimes
You. This is such an old movie, but did you ever see the movie War of the Roses?
- [46:06]
Michelle Locke
Of course. With Kathleen, Kathleen Turner.
- [46:09]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Right. Crazy. And Michael Douglas, I think. And they were this well to do couple.
- [46:17]
Michelle Locke
They swung from the chandelier and died. That's how they ended up dying.
- [46:21]
Host of Juicy Crimes
They fought and fought and fought like would not just going tit for tat for tit for tat. And you know, when you've been in that situation, you know, it must be hard to like tell a client, like, you know what, the kids are already this age, settle or whatever, because you're going to lose everything and you're going to lose another five years of your prime life of where you could have some peace and joy. Like when has there been times where you have to tell your person, like, you're 100% right, you deserve this, but you're dancing with the devil. And I've seen this play out before.
- [47:05]
Michelle Locke
It sounds cliche to say peace is priceless. It really does sound cliche. But I gotta tell you, someone that's lived it and then advised people to do it, money you can always make, you can always lose, you can always. I mean, money comes and goes, right? But what is the price of your sanity in. I know I got to a point where I'd rather have been homeless and living under a bridge than stay under the same roof with my ex husband another day. And there are times where you just. I tell my clients and I tell both men and women and it's ones that are the high wage earners. I'm like, just give them whatever. Like you're.
- [47:43]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Wait, what did you say? The highway? What?
- [47:46]
Michelle Locke
High wage earners? When I've got high wage earners, when I've got the person in the marriage that makes more. Okay, my advice is typically buy your piece because the reality is you're going to make this up in five years and the other side is never going to be able to make it up no matter what. Buy your piece, right? And then on the flip side, when I don't have the high wage earner, I've got someone that makes less. It is, let's figure out how we best financially situate you so that you can take care of yourself. But also know that, that he's going to keep fighting you no matter what. And so the longer that you keep this going, the more he's going to come after you. Because once they get the sense of blood or the taste of blood in their mouth like they've got you, they're going to keep going and they will pick the one thing that they know you want the most. Quite often it's the house. And I tell most of my clients, sell the house. Don't give them that leverage because they know that you're willing to give up everything else just to keep the house. You can get a new house. And quite frankly, there is such a pleasure in decorating your house for yourself without some asshole telling you what to put up or what not to put up what sports memorabilia that you have to put up on the walls. Thank you very much. Picking out your own sheets. Wonderful. Your own toothbrush. Wonderful. You can pick out whatever towels you want. Like, there is something healing about that. And. And I do see, like on those types of cases, it's. They will hold on to something they know you want and they will twist that knife and twist that knife and twist that knife in. And if you don't give them that leverage, they, fine, we can sell the house. Yeah. It's amazing. And it's amazing how quickly you can turn the tables.
- [49:30]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Okay, I want to switch gears a little bit because I know that you've have strong opinions about what has happened with Britney Spears in the last few years. And let's talk a little bit about where she is today and what's happened and just get your perspective.
- [49:48]
Michelle Locke
So I followed her for an inordinate amount of time. And I remember she came to Austin before COVID and did a performance here. And I wanted to see Britney live forever. And I went to go see her and I left the concert midway through. It was the saddest concert I've ever seen for a couple reasons. One, you could tell that she was just being put out there to work. Like, she was speaking in a British accent. She was lip syncing to parts of the songs that weren't hers. Like, it was. It broke my heart.
- [50:30]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And what year was this around this
- [50:32]
Michelle Locke
would have been, I think 2018.
- [50:34]
Host of Juicy Crimes
So one of her last times, really.
- [50:37]
Michelle Locke
And it was heartbreaking. Like, as the mom in me, I just wanted to go up there and give her a hug and take her off the stage and stop putting her through it. It was just horrific to see. And then I watched all the things that related to her conservatorship because she was in a conservatorship for a really long time. And then you had the free Britney movement come out. And I hate to say it, but I think that was one of the major downsides of social media for Britney because I don't think it served her well. Like, in order to be in a conservatorship. And every state has different conservatorship rules, Right? But you have to typically have medical documentation, you have to have psych evaluations, you have to have supporting evidence for a court to continue that conservatorship. And her conservatorship got renewed each and every year. As an attorney, what that tells me is that there was more than enough medical documentation to support continuing that conservatorship and then what we see, what happens when the conservatorship is removed is what we have now. And I don't know what is wrong with her. I'm a lawyer, so I can DO Lawyer Psych 101. But the other problem that I see is because she was a basically a corporation. That same thing with Taylor Swift. Like how many people lives does Taylor Swift's enterprise support? How many people's lives did Britney's enterprise support? And we can talk about her ex husband, but she supported everyone. And so if she wasn't out there making money, no one else made money. And that becomes where she is no longer a person or an individual. She's an asset that we need to make perform. And like, I mean, I swear to God, I'd fly out there today and just say, girl, we're done, we're taking a time out, we're getting you some help. No, I'm sure she's got a whole bunch of other, you know, people. But now I heard some rumor that she wants to have a baby now. Another one. And whether that's true or not, she
- [52:53]
Host of Juicy Crimes
keeps saying that, but she's, you know, in her mid-40s now, so I don't think there was a time where she. People were very. She was recently freed from the conservative ship and people were watching her Instagram very intently and she did this whole thing. I'm having a baby. This is when she was married to Sam. I'm having a baby. I'm having a little girl. And with like, like conviction and like a sonogram photo. And right away I said, I'm sorry, I don't believe that she's pregnant. I just don't. And then it was like either it went away or she said it didn't work or whatever. And yeah, I think, I think what's really hard is because of what you said, they didn't have her best interest at heart. Now one would argue that when she had her routine at when she was in Vegas all those years and she had a routine of performing and everything, that she was a better mother or she was more engaged because she took the medicine and she had a routine. But then when you read her book or hear about it, it was like she was like, had no choice in doing it or not. And then she didn't get the privilege of spending your money. Or her friends would go and visit and go on like a spa day and they were like, you can't go on the spa day. I look back at that and I'm like, Maybe in her brain, though, it was, well, you can't go on this. You can't go to the spa thing because you have rehearsal at 4 and they're going like, we don't really know what it was. Was it really, like, you can never. I mean, she always talked about, I could never drive a car or get a coffee or go have a spa day. And she sort of repeats that a lot. And I'm like, maybe that is the case. You know, it's too bad that there wasn't somebody. And I think her husband was going to be that person, Sam. And I think he wanted to be.
- [54:51]
Michelle Locke
I think he did.
- [54:52]
Host of Juicy Crimes
But I think that she also, in her illness, is overtly a sexual being. And I think there was, in my opinion, surmising. I think there was some infidelity on her part.
- [55:11]
Michelle Locke
Have any doubt? There is one of the. If. And I don't know what she actually has been diagnosed with. I really don't. But I know at least with like, bipolar. Hypersexuality is one of the symptoms that comes along with bipolar disorder. And I had someone once say that, is it worth an involuntary muscle spasm, like cheating? Because that's what it boils down to. It's an involuntary muscle spasm for.
- [55:39]
Host of Juicy Crimes
You mean for a bipolar person?
- [55:41]
Michelle Locke
Yeah. So she was in therapy and her therapist. Because hypersexuality is. Can be a part of bipolar. And her therapist told her, well, is, you know, your marriage, what you've been doing for this many years, is it worth an involuntary muscle spasm? I'm like, man, that's a really good way of looking at it.
- [55:59]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah.
- [56:00]
Michelle Locke
I'm like, is it worth it? Yeah, probably not, but she may have.
- [56:04]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah, you've gone this long.
- [56:07]
Michelle Locke
If Sam knew that she had some of these proclivities, which behind closed doors, he probably knew. I'm sure there was a level of understanding of it, I would suspect. And I don't know. I think it just became. I think she really stopped treating her mental health. And I think it just got. Be. Got to be too much for him. I mean, he seemed like a really nice guy.
- [56:32]
Host of Juicy Crimes
I think he was almost like the woman in the relationship where you. If you were the woman dating the star, the older. Because she was older, the older star and everything. And then finally that person says, okay, let's get married and we'll have a baby and everything will be great, normal. And that woman goes, okay, now things will be better. And I kind of think that was the case. I think he was hopeful. And they. You know that once they got married that maybe they would have a child and she. She would be free from the. From the conservative ship. She could do what she wanted. But then also it wouldn't just be spinning around in brown sensible pumps and a cowboy hat. Like, it would have been something else or. Or just being busy as a mom or whatever. And unfortunately, I. I just think in everything she went through, whether there is a history of mental illness on her dad's side with like a grandma and everything. And then I think also being a child star. Oh, can really fuck you up then being one of the biggest pop stars can really fuck you up then, you know, having multiple exes and, you know, and then also just then being in this place where now your dad's in charge and all of that. And it's just. Yeah, it's a really. It is. It is sad, you know. And what do you do now? Like. Yeah, now she's out of it. So I don't know if anybody checks to see if she's eaten today. If she's, you know, hygiene, like, I don't know, like, you know, and anybody that's gonna be her friend because she's Britney Spears, that gets old real quick when someone is that out of it. Like, it doesn't matter if you get to go on a free Mexico trip. You will work every day of that Mexico trip taking care of her, being her friend, listening to her weird stories, her going, let's have a dance party at like 2am or whatever. Like, I mean, just to kind of imagine it. So it's like with. When Sam and she broke up and people that were Britney Spears wanted to somehow, fans wanted to somehow, like, villainize him. I'm like, I don't think it's an easy job to be Britney Spears husband, assistant, friend, sister. I don't think it's easy.
- [59:02]
Michelle Locke
Think about it this way. And this is what always bothers me, from my perspective now that I'm back out in the dating field after being out of it since the year 2000, is that the more of a powerful woman you are, the more difficult it is to find a partner. It's one of the things I love about Taylor and Travis is because to him, it doesn't matter who she is. It doesn't matter that she is the Taylor Swift. Like it was, you know, and when I. The more ideas of living, the more you can look at people and see, like, who's really in love. Like, and you can see, like, the eyes are different, the interactions are different. Like, you can Just see it. And they're one of the few ones that I've seen where I'm like, they have that love, like they have that mutual respect, that love. They have what it's supposed to be. But can you imagine having to date Taylor Swift? Can you imagine having to date Britney Spears? Can you imagine at her heyday dating Pamela Anderson? I mean, can you, I mean all these powerful women, like these men have to be so secure in their masculinity because they have to stand back. And I just don't know that there are a whole lot of men that are willing to do that.
- [60:15]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah, I agree with that. It is hard. One of the things that you told me is you worked on a case where a woman had faked twins.
- [60:25]
Michelle Locke
Fake twin pregnancy. Yep.
- [60:27]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
- [60:29]
Michelle Locke
So I get hired on like the ugly of the ugly. But this was my first one where it was a fake pregnancy. I mean it legit. She I think had started making demands to my client for money, et cetera, because the twins were about to be born. She even had like a check in hospital date. Like she had gone so far as I registered the hospital. Here's the hospital I'm registered at.
- [60:54]
Host of Juicy Crimes
How long had they, how long had they dated for?
- [60:56]
Michelle Locke
They did not date for very long. This would, this would have been an oops, you know, after first few dates of getting together. It would have been an oops baby if it had been. So they had not dated for very long and he didn't know her real well. So we actually had to arrange because I think at that point she was like, I'll prove I'm pregnant. I'll prove I'm pregnant. I'll prove I'm pregnant. We're like, okay. So we scheduled and paid for her to go to one of those 3D sonograms, like a non medical one. Because she didn't want to go to a doctor's office. I'm like, okay, well we'll send you to not a doctor's office and here's where you can go. And she wasn't pregnant. And, but, but I'm telling you, she carried it through, even through the sonogram. And she's like, see, now you have the evidence that I am.
- [61:40]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Wait, she thought the sonogram would show two babies even though she wasn't. So she was she completely insane.
- [61:45]
Michelle Locke
You know, sometimes I don't need an expert to say you're crazy and just put an exhibit sticker on your forehead. Yeah, but if you are still convinced that the sonogram shows you're pregnant with twins. And it shows nothing. Well, you know, walks like a duck, talks like a duck. It's a duck.
- [62:04]
Host of Juicy Crimes
So then how did you break it to her that like, we're done with this stupid case because you aren't pregnant?
- [62:12]
Michelle Locke
I sent a very nice lawyer letter saying what?
- [62:16]
Host of Juicy Crimes
What did you say?
- [62:17]
Michelle Locke
Basically said, here's the sonogram results, here's what you know, the non medical reading shows. And so it appears that you are not pregnant. Please do not contact my client any further.
- [62:30]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And how much did that whole experience cost your client?
- [62:35]
Michelle Locke
Oh, more than it ever should have, I can tell you that. And it was multiple thousands of dollars.
- [62:44]
Host of Juicy Crimes
And did she ever do this to anybody else? Do you know?
- [62:48]
Michelle Locke
The rumor is she did. The rumor is she had done it
- [62:51]
Host of Juicy Crimes
after him or before?
- [62:52]
Michelle Locke
Before. The rumor is she had done it before, which is why he was like, I don't know that she is. I'm like, okay, here's how we're gonna handle it. And so, you know, I said, I don't want you communicating with her. I'll do all the communications, I'll set everything up. You're not gonna talk to her anymore. And so, yeah, so we handled it. But no, I mean, and how do you, as a person. And this goes back to the Netflix special that just came out about this, right? How do you fake a pregnancy? I mean, legit fake, like twins. Like what wires are not crossed correctly up there?
- [63:27]
Host of Juicy Crimes
I don't know. And what, I mean, what is the right thing to do if maybe your son or your brother or something or someone you care about, says a woman I barely know, but did have sex with is telling me that she is carrying my baby. And you know, I mean, what, what is the easiest. What would you tell that person to do for advice?
- [63:54]
Michelle Locke
I tell them go get a DNA test. Like, even if it's while she's still.
- [63:59]
Host of Juicy Crimes
But doesn't that involve like some invasive test that she could say no to at this point?
- [64:06]
Michelle Locke
Yeah, you'd have to get a court order for it. And I think each state will vary on what you can do with regards to that. I know in Texas we can file like a, in the interest of unborn child, just like start the proceedings to get it. Like the litigation commenced before that baby is born so that you can get orders for DNA testing as soon as that baby's born. But if you've got someone that, and I hate to say it, but this is a reality because I've raised, I'm got three Boys, Right. And they're good looking boys. And so they've got women that not all, but, you know, you see a successful young, good looking young man. It's, you know, the professional athletes run into this all the time. If they're gonna, oh, I can't get pregnant, but they get pregnant. Right, right. And so, no, no, I. So I absolutely tell my boys. And those are the types of cases where you play really nice with that girl to have to do whatever you need to do to get that DNA test done before that baby's born. Because that way you know what you need to do. But is it a form of like, I hate to say manipulation, but yeah, like you gotta play the game to get to the bottom of it. Because sometimes you can't get any help until after that baby's born. And by then they may have moved out of state and you're really stuck. Because then how do you have a relationship with a kid that lives in three states over when you're stuck in another state? Cause I've seen them do it too, where they get pregnant and they move. And a court's not gonna make them move back.
- [65:32]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Right. And you have to also, as the boyfriend, when I covered the Clayton case, the Bachelor, and this girl who lied about pregnancies and she had several boyfriends before, weren't even boyfriends that she claimed different things of. And then she basically said, give our relationship a chance. If I. If you just give us a chance to date, I will get the abortion, but if you don't start dating me, I won't get the abortion. Which is the craziest thing I've ever heard. And luckily in his case, I don't think there was ever any evidence where he was like, here's the money for it. It was more, it's your body, do what you want. Because then with someone, I can't really, I. I don't know if he did it with. I can't remember because there were so many people that she did this too. But there was one case where then she either sued for abortion, coercion, saying like, this person forced me to get an abortion and I didn't want to. So now I'm like suing for, I don't know, PTSD or something. Wow.
- [66:41]
Michelle Locke
I guess intentional infliction on emotional distress.
- [66:44]
Host of Juicy Crimes
But she never even had an abortion in the end. Well, that she was never pregnant or something. I don't know. It was crazy, but nuts. But I guess you can kind of sue for anything and.
- [66:55]
Michelle Locke
Well, you can, but I want to Know what? Attorney took that.
- [66:59]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah, it was crazy. The attorney eventually left her. But I guess there's some really shitty attorneys out there that will take crappy cases in the hopes or in the hopes to shake you down, in which you just go, okay, here's 10 grand and the attorney takes four of it. I don't know.
- [67:17]
Michelle Locke
So I will tell you this. Every profession has good and bad in it. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, law enforcement. There's good and bad and all. And I. The attorneys like that. That take those cases I always like. But, you know, not everyone can be president. Yeah.
- [67:42]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah. Well, no, not everyone should be.
- [67:45]
Michelle Locke
No. And that's how everyone wants to be.
- [67:49]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Well, anyway, this was so great talking to you. You're just a wealth of knowledge and I love your hot takes on things. So tell everybody where they can follow you and. And enjoy your podcast as well.
- [68:01]
Michelle Locke
Oh, I'm so easy to find. I'm an attorney, Michelle Locke, on all social media platforms. The only thing is you can thank my mother because Michelle is spelled with 1L, not 2. My podcast is Love lust Law, and you can find it on anywhere you find your podcast. I'm on both on Spotify and on YouTube for the podcast, but tune in. It's really. It's more of my hot, hot takes and then kind of some unfiltered me. So I love it. It's entertaining at times.
- [68:30]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Well, thank you so much. It was so. I'm so great you grateful that you reached out. I had such a good time conversation with you, so thank you.
- [68:36]
Michelle Locke
Well, I love your stuff. I love your hot takes and I love your bluntness, quite frankly.
- [68:43]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Good, good.
- [68:44]
Michelle Locke
Because you call us. You call a spade a spade.
- [68:46]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Yeah. I don't care anymore. So. It's nice. It's really nice. I never really care, but now I really don't care. So I love that it's the.
- [68:54]
Michelle Locke
For women, like, once you hit 45 and up, you hit the. I don't give a switch. Exactly, exactly. It's a wonderful switch.
- [69:02]
Host of Juicy Crimes
It's the best part that not getting a period are the two best things.
- [69:05]
Michelle Locke
Not getting one, I'm not gotten there yet. I'm dying.
- [69:08]
Host of Juicy Crimes
I'm gonna love it when the time comes. Then every then every dinner is like hormone talk. And I'm like, ah, can we not do another hormone talk dinner? Like. But anyway, that'll be the next episode.
- [69:21]
Michelle Locke
Yeah.
- [69:22]
Host of Juicy Crimes
Thank you so much. Take care. Bye. At Sockdoc, we know being a healthy adult is like living in a video game. Every day has side quests, taxes, laundry, birthdays and just when you're leveling up, you have to book a doctor.
- [70:03]
Michelle Locke
The insurance portal crashes.
- [70:04]
Host of Juicy Crimes
They put you on hold. Your doctor doesn't take your plan.
- [70:08]
Michelle Locke
Game over.
- [70:09]
Host of Juicy Crimes
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