Dr. Leslie on The Duggars and The Epstein Zorro Ranch Rumors

Summary

Podcast Summary: Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald

Episode Title: Dr. Leslie on The Duggars and The Epstein Zorro Ranch Rumors

Date: April 1, 2026
Host: Heather McDonald
Guest: Dr. Leslie Dobson
Podcast Description: A deep dive into the juiciest true crimes—with a focus here on recent new crimes and scandals concerning the Duggar family, institutional systems of abuse, and the evolving rumors and investigations around Jeffrey Epstein's Zorro Ranch.

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Episode Overview

This episode dissects disturbing new developments in the Duggar family, examines patterns of abuse and cover-up in cult-like religious communities and broader institutions, and unpacks the latest conspiracy theories and rumors concerning Jeffrey Epstein—particularly focused on his New Mexico Zorro Ranch. Dr. Leslie Dobson, a psychologist and frequent expert witness in abuse and trafficking cases, returns to offer clinical insights and sharp perspective on the psychology and societal structures enabling such crimes, while Heather brings her trademark blend of irreverent humor and outrage.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Duggar Family: Patterns of Abuse and Cover-Up

• Background:

  • The Duggars, former stars of TLC’s 19 Kids and Counting, are again embroiled in a sex abuse scandal ([02:31]).
  • Josh Duggar, previously exposed for molesting siblings and later convicted of child sexual abuse materials, is serving a 12-year sentence ([04:12]).

• Recent Scandal:

  • Another Duggar son, Joseph, was arrested after admitting to molesting a then-9-year-old girl; his wife, Kendra, was also briefly arrested for suspected child endangerment related to locked bedroom doors ([12:43]).

• Religious Context:

  • Both discuss the Duggars’ involvement with the IBLP (Institute in Basic Life Principles), led by Bill Gothard, described as a cultic interpretation of biblical family structure ([05:13]).
  • Dr. Leslie: “They are interpreting biblical scriptures to fit their pedophilic needs.” ([15:57])

• Dynamics of Secrecy & Control:

  • The cult/social system isolates children and women, stifling reporting to the outside world (police, authorities), instead requiring internal reporting to “elders” ([25:03]).
  • Quote, Dr. Leslie: “If you don't go to the elders first and you go to, like, a cop—oh my God, a secular cop—you could go to hell... They’re terrified.” ([25:08])
  • Parentification: Older girls care for younger siblings and are subjected to repressive gender roles, while precautions are taken against boys, tacitly acknowledging a pattern of brother-on-sister abuse ([21:23]).

• Legal and Psychological Frameworks:

  • Discussion around differentiated charges based on victims’ ages; recidivism among abusers; skepticism about early release based on age ([17:01], [17:26]).
  • Dr. Leslie: “Recidivism rates… are so incredibly high, they don’t respond to treatment. As a psychologist, I don’t agree with these low-level sentences.” ([17:01])
  • The challenge for children in insular communities to report abuse, due to lack of access to outside adults or mandated reporters ([24:50]).

2. Institutional Abuse: Religions, Schools, and Grooming

• Parallels in Other Institutions:

  • Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Catholic Church follow similar patterns of internal secrecy and protection of abusers ([26:03], [27:44]).
  • Dr. Leslie describes her work as an expert witness in these cases, validating abuse claims through psychological testing and has bankrupted dioceses with evidence ([27:44]-[29:07]).

• Grooming Tactics and Victim Profiles:

  • Vulnerable children—those lacking parental presence or from single-parent homes—are at greater risk ([36:27]).
  • Popular myths about why certain victims are targeted; abusers commonly seek prepubescent children, fitting their preferential patterns ([36:34]).
  • Notable: Discussion of high-profile cases (Michael Jackson, Harvey Weinstein) and the nuanced signals predators use to test for victim compliance ([37:39]).

• Female Perpetrators and Double Standards:

  • Female abusers (e.g., teachers involved with students) are less studied, but patterns show these are usually focused on one victim, seeking validation rather than power ([45:52]).
  • Public romanticization (“I wish that was my teacher”) contrasted with the actual harm done to boys ([46:46]).

3. The Epstein Case & Zorro Ranch Theories

• What is Zorro Ranch?

  • Epstein’s 7,000-acre New Mexico compound, less publicly discussed than his island ([54:17]).

• Rumors & Investigations:

  • Survivors allege bodies are buried at the ranch; mentions of incinerators and potential burial grounds ([55:03]).
  • Dr. Leslie: “The survivors... say they overheard and were even told that the bodies were buried in Zorro Ranch. But there’s also an incinerator… There are grave sites if you look at it from above.” ([55:23])

• Epstein Lottery Wins:

  • Suspicious Powerball win by his estate; possible money laundering? ([54:49])

• Victims and Trafficking Methods:

  • Children from poor families or foreign orphanages were preferred victims; parental trafficking is common ([57:13]).
  • Epstein’s desire to breed “babies” with selected physical traits ([57:34]-[58:26]).
  • Menus of girls, “fetish fulfillment”—all tied to systematic blackmail ([59:13]).

• Conspiracy & Cover-Up Theories:

  • Discussion of Epstein’s death: Dr. Leslie argues autopsy results and evidence contradict an official suicide and implies potential body swaps ([65:00]-[66:42], [67:04]).
  • “You don’t—in prison with a high-profile person—make any movement at midnight.” ([68:01])
  • Dr. Leslie: “100% I think [Epstein] is alive... He had too many ways to pull strings.” ([70:20])
  • Speculation about Ghislaine Maxwell: Debates about whether she is in prison or replaced by someone else, due to inconsistencies in appearances and unusual legal circumstances ([71:52]-[74:11]).

4. Media, Culture & Systemic Distraction

• Impact of Reality TV on Religious Groups:

  • Shows like “Secret Lives of Mormon Wives” possibly attract would-be members seeking fame, against the wishes of those within the faith ([42:17]-[43:08]).

• Social Media and Censorship:

  • Dr. Leslie shares challenges of posting about abuse and trafficking on TikTok and other platforms due to algorithmic censorship ([75:29]).

• Broader Cultural Distractions:

  • Commentary on how conspiracy and scandal stories (even about aliens) flood the media cycle and numb public response ([80:07]).

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Notable Quotes & Highlights

On the Duggars and Abuse

• Heather (on the Duggar matriarch):
  “She was weird, the mother with her little weird voice… She’s like, ‘the Lord says that as a wife you need to do whatever your husband wants…’” ([02:54])

• Dr. Leslie (on cult doctrine):
  “They’re interpreting biblical scriptures to fit their pedophilic needs.” ([15:57])

• Dr. Leslie:
  “If you don't go to the elders first and you go to like a cop, oh my God, a secular cop, you could go to hell… they’re terrified.” ([25:08])

On Institutional Secrecy

• Dr. Leslie:
  “I had to explain to the lawyer what a vulva was because he was a Jehovah’s Witness lawyer.” ([26:12])

• Dr. Leslie:
  “I’ve worked dozens of the cases fully to the end, but thousands of the original certificates, and we’ve bankrupted dioceses. I mean they have no fight.” ([27:44])

On Survivor Stories and Justice

• Heather (on victim tactics):
  “One of the tactics… the priests or whatever would get the teenage boy to come out and hang out… have a little alcohol… the grooming… something sexual would happen, and then he would say, now I’m going to tell your parents [about the alcohol/drugs].” ([29:07])

• Dr. Leslie:
  "They self-blame, self-hate. They don't want to tell anyone because they're so confused... 50 years later kind of... this has ruined my view of sexual... I can't be intimate and I'm addicted to drugs. Like it ruins people's lives." ([30:52])

On The Epstein Mysteries

• Dr. Leslie:
  “Statistically, very unlikely that he’s won [the lottery] twice... this guy is like seriously running the world.” ([55:19])

• Dr. Leslie:
  "Primary person to traffic a child is the biological father... the stats are like what, a hundred thousand kids in this country alone a year? I think that's way too small." ([57:13])

• Dr. Leslie:
  “We need to build a rico. We need to get everyone at the top in trouble, but we’ve got to lock in the bottom first.” ([40:30])

• On Epstein Death Theories:
  “He was paying $5,000 deposits to the prison guard… 100% I think he’s alive... He had too many ways to pull strings.” ([70:20])

• On Ghislaine Maxwell:
  “My assumption is she's just not aging well, but the fact that she was moved to a lower security [facility]... she's basically blackmailing Trump.” ([72:24])

On Media and Manipulation

• Heather:
  “I believe that we are living in a movie... Sometimes I want to throw my phone into the ocean.” ([80:07])

• Dr. Leslie:
  “Candace [Owens] is brilliantly diabolical and clout chasing... she makes fun of people believing her. She’s doing it for the money now.” ([76:27])

• Heather:
  "It's dark shit, but at least we can... laugh a little bit about it. No, we covered a lot: Duggars, Zora Ranch, Virginia, Candace, Erica, Kirk, Ghislaine. Juicy crimes." ([81:35])

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Important Timestamps

• The Latest Duggar Scandal — [02:53]–[14:11]
• Culture of Silence in Religious Communities — [14:27]–[26:03]
• Institutional Sexual Abuse (Catholic, JW) — [27:44]–[35:24]
• How Predators Target and Groom — [36:27]–[39:00]
• Michael Jackson, Weinstein, and Other High-Profile Cases — [37:39]–[39:53]
• Epstein’s Zorro Ranch & Conspiracy Theories — [54:17]–[74:33]
• Social Media Censorship and Propaganda — [75:29]–[77:43]
• Final Thoughts on Election and Systemic Corruption — [80:07]–[82:19]

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Memorable Moments

• Dr. Leslie explaining the Bible-based doctrine that prevents abuse victims from going to secular authorities ([25:08]).
• Vivid description of Epstein’s Zorro Ranch, rumored burial grounds, and the mystery of his death and possible escape ([54:17]–[68:01]).
• Candid talk about the inescapable cycles of abuse and denial in powerful religious and social systems—and real hope for legal and cultural change ([81:07]).

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Closing

This episode exemplifies Juicy Crimes’ mix of pop culture familiarity, dark humor, and real forensic and legal insight. While laced with laughs and occasional comic relief, Heather and Dr. Leslie deliver a sobering analysis of how systems of power, whether religious, familial, or governmental, perpetuate cycles of abuse—and how society and survivors can challenge them.

Find more from Dr. Leslie on Instagram and YouTube at Dr. Leslie Dobson. ([75:29])

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[A]

It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor. No, really stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side and participate in McDonald's while supplies last. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I'm really excited for my guest today. She is back to come into our studio. You may recognize her because she has really been all over social media in your expertise. Dr. Leslie Dobson. Welcome back.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

To Juicy Crimes. Wow. I mean I was so excited to have you booked just to talk to you more. But then when this latest story broke, another sexual crime in the TV family, the Duggards happened. I was like I need your expertise on this.

[B]

It's so fucked up.

[A]

I'm just going to give a little background for people because I didn't really cover the Duggards as far as a TV show that I. They would come across my TV and I thought that she was weird, the mother with her little weird voice. And she's like, well, the Lord says that as a wife you need to do whatever your husband wants you to be. And you should always be supportive and, and energetic and excited to meet his wishes. I saw a video like that which is basically like never turn down sex. You know, you are there in the Bible, you are there to serve him, to make his life easy and beneficial and da da, da. And so they had these 19 kids and it was called Atenee county then 19E County. And it ran all the way up until 2015 when the one son, Josh, the oldest, the older one was. It came out that he had molested his sisters. His parents knew. They eventually like kind of went to the police. But then the, the time limit had run out so they had kept it quiet. I don't recall how it came out in 2015 because he didn't get in trouble for it at that point.

[B]

There were anonymous tips and I'm still not sure who all the tips were about. Child porn, which we shouldn't call child porn, you know, child abuse material.

[A]

No, but that was after. I'm talking about the 2015. So Josh, who is now in prison for 12. So let's talk about the same person, Josh. So what I'm talking about is he was found and the dog and the sister said, yes, he did touch us and things like that. We forgive him, he's our brother. And that's finally when TLC said, okay, we're gonna stop this. And they had numerous spin offs with some of the other family, some of the older kids that had gotten married and had their own kids. Then that same Josh got married to this girl Anna and went on to have seven kids. She was part of the weird religion. What's the religion called?

[B]

Do you call IBF?

[A]

Yeah, there's initials for it. It's not LDS later, it's a cult. It's like I.D. something IDF or something.

[B]

It's about like seven principles of their diluted misinterpretation of biblical scriptures. It's. Yeah, it just, it's all just such.

[A]

Well, then he got married and there was a scandal that came like out in the tabloids that he was on Ashley Madison and there was a woman who said, I met with him, or maybe she was also a sex worker. She had sex with him. Okay, fine, whatever. She was an adult. Then it came out while he was working at the car dealership that on his computer had child porn. And he was getting it and sharing it. I don't think he was producing it, but he was getting it and sharing it. And then he got 12 years and the first day that he could possibly be out among us is 20, 32. Somewhere in there that year.

[B]

And the way he stored that porn. I don't. I hate to use the word porn because that's like. That feels so adult. But the way he stored the abuse material and how did he store it? And there was, There were snuff films.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Like it's. So basically he had a separate. He. He split his hard drive in half. So he had to basically log out of portion of his computer, log back in. It was very savvy, very savvy how he hid all this. But the biggest thing was he had the Daisy video.

[A]

What is the Daisy video?

[B]

And I, I don't want anyone to look this up. Like I don't want for this poor girl's life. She's still alive. I don't want anyone to see it. But it was basically this sick fuck who was filming an 18 month old baby in the Philippines and had two Filipino women abuse her so brutally. It's. It's one of the worst. I. They couldn't even show it to the jury. They showed a portion of it, but it was like physical abuse. Burning, cutting hot wax. And then he engaged and. And started harming. Sexually harming the baby.

[A]

The man that filmed it. Yeah.

[B]

So he got like 200 years in prison in the Philippines. In, in the Philippines, yeah. The Duggar had that fucking.

[A]

So then those videos then get shared. And this is what I think is so weird. And I said this on another case that I talked about along the way is the sharing of this sick material. The communities of Pedos. I would think if I was a sick fuck, okay. Even if I had a weird thing that I was into.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would want to keep that secret. Why do you think that is such. Because so many people get caught.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they receive the material and then they share it to their pedo friend. Why is there this sharing? Do you think it's because the sick people want to feel more normal? Is that part of the joy that they're sharing it with other people? What do you think that is?

[B]

Well, I think money is a huge part. Right. If you're producing it and selling it.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I don't know if he actually made money off it. But, yeah, they're. They're buddies, they're friends. They want everyone to enjoy what they're enjoying. They're sick, twisted morons who like to diddle the same and look at the same. Same disgusting material and get off on it.

[A]

So Josh Duggar, while he's the father of seven, already got publicly known for molesting his sisters. He then has this sick material, and he's storing it. And was he also sharing it?

[B]

I would imagine, yes, I would imagine. And I don't remember that part of the trial, but I would imagine he's. They run in groups, right? Like. And how did he get that Daisy video? Right, so these. It's 4chan, it's 8chan, it's all dark web shit. But.

[A]

And so in these cases, when it

[B]

is

[A]

that they're in possession of it. Yeah, because it's like, I. You know, there's certain. You know, I've listened to other podcasts and stuff about this podcast called Betrayal. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's very good. And every season they have, like, a new person who's been betrayed. And now originally it was that this guy was a massive cheater. And he also had, like, you know, girls that his high school girls that he got with. But now, like, the last few seasons have been so many that the woman finds out that this is what her husband has been doing. And it's like the police knock on the door and it's like they know, and she's just like, what? And sometimes. And in most cases, it's interesting that, like, a lot of these cases are not them actually touching a child, though, I mean, doesn't make it. It's still horrific because it's still exploiting the child. But in this day and age, this digital age, like this didn't. This kind of thing didn't exist back 30 years ago. So it's like where you could see it and enjoy it and whatever and exploit it without actually having a child in your basement. And I think that's what's crazy. And then also the defense of that, I assume, is just like, oh, he didn't know it was on there. He didn't know what he was getting. Is that what it always is? Kind of.

[B]

Oh, yeah. All the time, like, oh, someone was sending it to me and I didn't know what I was opening. Right. You've got like 12,000 images and you now have a search history and we see your Discord chats.

[A]

And so it's so he must have had all of that in order to get these 12 years. It was not. I inadvertently opened up an attachment to come to a birthday party. And it was a satio.

[B]

No, he had thumbnails videos, and he had a sophisticated manner of hiding them. It took the DOJ time to even sort through his hidden drives.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. So then. So he goes off to do 12 years in prison. His wife Anna, who has the seven kids, she, I think, moves with the parents. Bob and what's the mom's name? Do you remember?

[B]

I don't remember.

[A]

I don't know. The mom and dad, Billy Bob.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, it's like Billy Bob and whatever her name is. And she's still wearing her wedding ring out. And she is probably visiting him or whatnot. The other son then, Joseph Duggar, he is younger. He was just caught over the weekend and arrested. He admitted to molesting a girl. She's now 14, but on a trip to, I think, somewhere in Florida. Panama or something in Florida. They were on a trip, and I assume the families were friends or something. And he had her sit on his lap. She was nine at the time. Now she's 14. And also he sat her next to him and put a blanket over their laps and was doing things to her in her private parts that, you know, is a molestation. And so I guess she then finally had the bravery to share what had happened all these years ago. And he's been arrested. He did admit it to the detectives. He admitted it to the girl's dad.

[B]

Yep. And then his wife goes down.

[A]

So now let's explain. The wife then is named Kendra, and she was arrested. She has been let out. But from this one, we don't know that much. But we think that. What I found is that the cops came, obviously, because he's been arrested of molesting a child. And they have children in the home that they needed to check the home. And in checking the home, they. They saw two bedroom doors that had locks on the outside, which would then be. What was what she got? Like, not entrapment. Yeah, entrapment. Not entrapment. That's like kidnap. Wait, what's the word?

[B]

I don't remember the legal term that

[A]

they charged her with, but basically, like, it's child endangerment and then child. I can't think of the words. But, like, where they can't get out. And I mean, well, and it's interesting

[B]

because they have four kids, right? Yes. And there are four. Four counts, four charges. So it tells me that there are. The police saw four different abuses. There's two locks on two doors. What are the other two? Like bad shit is gonna come out. Like she got bonded out. But CPS took the kids.

[A]

Oh, they did take the kids. All four kids. Okay.

[B]

So I'm glad she pays 1,500 bucks gets out these. This is within the family and the religion. It has been bred.

[A]

Let's talk a little bit more about that because this girl Libby, I came across her on TikTok when I was doing more research on the Duggars because I didn't watch 17 years of it or whatever it was.

[B]

I mean, good, better for your mind,

[A]

but I understand why it was a hit. And it really is like you're looking inside someone's home and it was such a different kind of thing. One of the. Anyway, she was brought to the headquarters of some guy named Bill Gothard. He was the head of that religion that they followed. And she got sent there because she was seen as like a rebel child or something. So her parents put her there for like to stay there. And while she was there, girls, according to her TikTok, allegedly girls were brought there that had been abused by their brothers, their dads, some of them were pregnant with their brother's kids. And then she, as a 17 year old girl was supposed to counsel them and help them and then he would. I mean, she alleged that he was doing stuff to them too. But she said he would say things like, well, you know, don't you want a spiritual body, like to. So you need to forgive what happened and have like mercy on what happened to you and accept it and like, you know, and move on. But like no police were involved or anything. And it's just really horrible. I mean, she realizes now, you know, it's just such a cycle.

[B]

It's. It's horrible. I mean they are, they're interpreting biblical scriptures to fit their pedophilic needs. Or if it's not pedophiles, it's older, you know, habelia or whatever it is.

[A]

But what is Hebelia?

[B]

14 to 16 or 17. So we quantify. You know, underage has different terms.

[A]

Okay, well, it's a worst count for a child under the age of 14. Oh, that's what it is. That's why they always say that I never. Yeah, okay. So in the Joseph Duggar thing, the girl was nine. Yeah. So it's way. It's a worse account, worse charge.

[B]

Charge of Ludin lascivious under the age of 12. I think it might be State to state.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Different because I'm really California.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Unless I travel for a case. But yeah, it's way worse. And the conviction and the sentencing is going to be way more harsh, which is still so fucked up because if you abuse a 16 year old, you should still be in prison forever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean the recidivism rates, them doing it again are so incredibly high, they don't respond to treatment. As a psychologist, I don't agree with these low level sentences.

[A]

Well, no. And then that other bill came out, I guess where they're letting out based on prisoners ages.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they could be like the worst child molester. But if they're over 55, I'm like 50, I'm like, what are you talking about? Like this guy because he's 55 or 60 isn't going to go and grab a child and that's like they're not 92.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like, and even if they were 92, who cares? Let them die there. Like what are we doing?

[B]

It doesn't have any relation like the science. Like you're still a psychopath. If you're 95 yet, maybe you're gonna tire out and you won't be as physically aggressive. Your brain is still gonna be wired that way. Yeah. So but again, like look at, look at our government. Look at like we are minimizing so much and we're slowly seeing these laws change. It's really, really fucking disturbing.

[A]

Yeah. Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com they have an incredible line of cannabis gummies. And you can get 20% off your first [e-mail] with promo code Juicy Crimes. So forget the one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to a mood that you're looking for. My favorite is Sleepy Time Advanced Gummies. Because this is for a mind soothing calm each night. It is one of their best sellers and I can see why. I just have some times when my mind just doesn't turn off or I'm stressed about something the next day. But most importantly, I need a good night's sleep and I have found this has really worked perfectly. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a $100 day satisfaction guarantee. But as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code Juicy Crimes. So head over to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you disc over your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo Code Juicy Crimes when you check out to save 20% off your first order. Try it [e-mail] and so with this, this was just so what was also about this. The large family, which I thought was weird, was the parentification of children. So it was like the mom was having so many kids and you know, every 10 months she'd give, have a kid and then there'd be like an older kid that was assigned a child. But once that older child was assigned a child, if it was a boy, once they got to be like 15 or something, then they were off on. They were no longer in charge of babysitting or doing anything. And I feel like they knew that. And then I also saw a video and so then again more on the girls to take care of it. But at some times maybe a 10 year old boy would be in charge of a child, but then Once he was 14, he didn't have to. And she said, well, we make sure, I saw her in this interview, the mom, we make sure that all the girls know we don't sit on anybody's lap. Not your brothers, not your uncles, unless it's your daddy. You don't sit on anybody's lap. And we make sure there's no. You don't play hide and go seek. You're never left alone with your brother. I'm like, I don't know. I grew up with brothers. We didn't ever had to worry about that. Like we were talking about that. Like clearly they know this has been bred within this community.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And she knows it's happening. She doesn't want it to happen. But I don't, I know, I, I feel confident she doesn't want to happen. So in going along with this weird lifestyle, she's like, we, you know, have taken precautions. None of the girls have said anything did happen with their dad.

[B]

No.

[A]

But the brothers.

[B]

The brothers, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean you've got this isolated community where they're told that women are just cum deposits and that they're indebted to men. Right. You've got this strain of misogyny and they're just taught that they have to take it. Then you've got the psychology of the men feeling like they are entitled to it. Right. They're not meeting like vast amounts of people who they can have normal sexual relationships with.

[A]

Right. They, they, they, they're handpicked. So for like the Anna Duggard who married Josh, who's doing the 12 years she was part of the religion. So the parents found her and they didn't even do a side hug, like where just their body side. Their photo shoot was them, like holding hands like this. So she never met or talked to anybody else. And now he's doing all this time and she still appears to be totally devoted. And also she has seven kids she has to raise by herself. Right.

[B]

And I imagine the church and the. No, I'm not going to call it a church. The cult is funding their life, right? So they're stuck. There's so many ways, psychologically, physically, financially that you get stuck and you can't get out.

[A]

And then you add the TV part of it, Because I was like, what are they all doing now? Because so many of them have gone on to be married and have several kids themselves. And a lot of them are still doing social media. They are. I mean, some are in like real estate and car sales and stuff like that. But still it was a cycle to keep it going. They were doing their. So not only are you living this weird thing, but then you also are famous and millions of people are looking at you, but you're still isolated. You're not going to college or meeting other people or anything like that. Unlike other reality star kids that I can. I mean, this is like the worst of the worst when you think about it. So in these weird religious situations, we saw it with like the Warren Jeff and all that, where they discovered that all these women he was marrying multiple women, and some were as young as like nine. And, and there's I think a new doc on Netflix coming out about it too. But why Is it because we have freedom of religion that there's a weird differentiation of like church and state in that. Well, they live over there and they do their own thing and that's their religion. So how are we supposed to know if you never report it, if you never run in your weird long dress to the police station and tell us as if you. A child that's only lived in this world and knows no different and doesn't and is told that the world outside is evil? Like, what would give a child like that the strength to tell anybody they're not going to regular school. They don't have a teacher to tell. They probably don't go to a regular doctor.

[B]

Right? And they're not. And part of the original trial when the dad was like, I knew he did it and I didn't tell anyone

[A]

about, about the Josh. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because of Deuteronomy 19:15. Like, grab your Bibles, guys.

[A]

What is that? What is that?

[B]

Actually, just chatgpt. No one's going to read a Bible right now.

[A]

But what is it in a summary?

[B]

Yeah, it basically says that you can't go to anyone outside of the church unless there are two objective church member, cult member people witnessing the sexual violence. So your story won't be believed. In fact, if you don't go to the elders first and you go to like a cop, oh my God, a secular cop, you're going, you could go to hell. Like, you could ruin everything. They're terrified.

[A]

Well, how could that law even make sense?

[B]

Because it's in the Bible. And they.

[A]

Because it's like, well, you're not doing on the altar at the church. You're obviously doing behind closed doors to the child, to the victim.

[B]

And even if you walk in and you see it, that's not enough because you're only one person.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

The victim doesn't count. And they misconstrue it to the point of. That's why they don't tell the police. They tell the elders. The elders deal with it in house and nothing happens.

[A]

That's the same rule. I believe in Jehovah's Witness.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I just did a trial on that.

[A]

Oh, you did? Tell me about that.

[B]

I mean, I had to explain to the lawyer what a vulva was because he was a Jehovah's Witness lawyer.

[A]

You mean the car? Oh, no, the vulva.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

I was like, what?

[B]

The vagina.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I was like, I was explaining the crime and basically how he said, oh, I don't know. I just, I picked her up on my hip and somehow my finger just entered her vagina. And the, what I explained to the jury was. So I want to explain, you know, like, let's look at a vagina. You know, how does a finger go? First, she had tights on. Second, little girls wear larger underwear than women who wear, you know, thongs.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Or no underwear. You pick her up from the hip and somehow you manipulate your finger into her vulva and touching multiple parts of. Within the fatty part of the vagina and then fully entering her. Like, I had to explain this. And the lawyer was, he did not even understand what I was explaining. He couldn't defend his client because he didn't Even understand the names for the vagina.

[A]

Because he was part of that religion as well.

[B]

Because he was in the religion too. Because they're so uneducated on female anatomy and healthy sex and just normal stuff that we learn in normal lives that aren't in these cult like fashions.

[A]

And so in. Now you said. So that's. So that you've done a Jehovah's Witness. 1. And was he convicted?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh good.

[B]

Yes. And I've done so many, I can't remember. A lot of Catholic.

[A]

Yeah, tell me about that.

[B]

A lot of Catholic. Well, when, when California and other states opened, I think it's 340.1 Certificate of Merit. You could sue if you were over 40 and you were abused when you were a child. And it was big in the Catholic Church. And so people, lawyers would hire me and I would basically say like this is a valid claim. And I would do, you know, like lie detection and all the psychological testing and then they could put forward their lawsuit and then we'd move on to a full trial where then you would have a full psychological assessment and we would see if, you know, how did this trauma affect your life, Emotional damages, things like that. And so I've, I've worked dozens of the cases fully to the end, but thousands of the, the original certificates and we've bankrupted diocese. I mean they have no fight. They, they can't say no because there's just too much evidence and proof. And then unified school districts and Catholic school districts or Catholic schools all around here. Long beach survey like, oh yeah, all of them. And so basically most of them are now settling out of court once they know that I've been retained and they see the report. They're giving millions to these people to quiet them.

[A]

My brother went to a private school out here, Catholic. And he, he was. My mom would go, oh, you know, Jim wanted to go back, you know, didn't like the school and wanted to go to the public school because he said that the typing teacher was always trying to give them back massages. And then cut to like 25 years later, that guy was convicted. Yeah, I mean, and so I'm like, yeah, thank God my brother wasn't a victim and left and whatever. And I think that's really interesting in sadly some of the ones that I have found out in that they kind of go after the vulnerable situation, the widow, the single mom, the less fortunate child who has to get there at 6am to pay for the tuition. So like he's on scholarship, so he's there at 6am Helping getting the cafeteria ready. And there's that alone time. And then also one of the tactics I remember them doing is like they, the priests or whatever would get the teenage boy to come out and hang out and they would start with, you could have a little alcohol, you know, the grooming. And then, and then they drank or smoked pot or whatever together and maybe even watch porn. And then something sexual would happen. And then he would say, the abuser would say, now I'm gonna tell your parents. If you tell on me, I'm gonna tell your parents that you drank, you smoked pot, you looked at porn. When you said, we're supposed to be studying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like. And then they're embarrassed and they don't know what's going on. And it's like, ugh.

[B]

And the young boys are so confused because they, they will orgasm, they will ejaculate. Yeah. And, but they like girls and they don't understand why their penis is doing it. And then they're like, am I gay? Did I want this? And then they self blame, self hate. They don't want to tell anyone because they're so confused.

[A]

Right.

[B]

50 years later they're like, holy crap, I can't keep a relationship. This has ruined my view of sexual. I can't be intimate and I'm addicted to drugs. Like it ruins people's lives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's where I fight, right. That's where I explain to the jury and I say, you know, you guys better fucking believe this person. And here's the science behind it.

[A]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

Makes me livid. And it makes me even more livid when religion is used to be a part of that abuse.

[A]

Absolutely. Did you ever in, was there ever a case that you said, no, I actually don't believe this person?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Can you talk on that a little bit?

[B]

I signed an NDA on a more recent one, but I didn't believe the woman and it was her being. I don't want us to have to mute everything.

[A]

No, no. I don't know if there's a way you can without. Is there something in general, hypothetically that would make your alarm go off to maybe go, hold on. I think we need to not accept everything she's saying at this point.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I do a lot of the psychological testing, so I'm retained by the attorneys. It's non refundable. I don't have one side or another. I don't care if one attorney pays me if I don't believe the case. Whatever. You're going to take the report and you're probably not going to use it, right. You'll get another expert who might go along with you. But I do so much psychological testing on trauma and lie detection, malingering. You know, the batteries are four to eight hours. And then I, I'm asking friends and family, I'm on their Instagram, I'm looking everywhere.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like detective style. And I want to know really genuinely if it's true. And then the psychological assessments look at, you know, are you consistent, are you infrequent, or how do you compare to people your age, your gender, who do your job? Are you reacting the way that other people would react to say that this happened to them? So there's so much that goes into it, and it's rare, but I have had several women who are not telling the truth. And it's a money grab for a celebrity or an athlete.

[A]

But in your opinion, it's more that the celebrity and athlete thing and not a childhood trauma. Like, you know, oh, you know, because I mean, jokingly, this is just jokingly, this is still me. When all that stuff came out about the church, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, there were people that were like, God, I was an altar boy. You know, why wasn't I molested? I could have gotten, you know, yeah. $3 million. I guess my butt wasn't as cute as the guy next to me, you know, like just, yeah, in poor taste, but like that type of. And I can't imagine that someone as like a 40 year old that that happened to then would make that up. But maybe some people would go and then they'd be found out to be not truthful before it gets too far. But I mean, yeah, like, but you know, most of the times, obviously it's, it's. Who would want to go through all that? Unless in a certain case, I did have a date with this person. We went out once. And then, yeah, I'm a desperate woman who wants to say that, you know, it was unwanted or unwarranted.

[B]

How this goes down is you get one guy coming forward and then you get the lawyers saying, okay, I'm gonna go on Facebook and I'm gonna target ads towards everyone who was in your high school that year or in the four years, everyone who was on that water polo team. Water polo was a big, big one, a big access. And then people are gonna start saying, okay, yeah, I did have this incident that happened in the locker room. So yeah, I'll, I'll speak on it. But then you know, everyone's like, oh, wait, so many people are speaking on it. Maybe I should just say it happened to me too. And so that's where I come in. And I'm like, ooh. Okay, it doesn't line up. Now we have 17 people from this one water polo coach. But the pattern of grooming and abuse by the coach lines up with 16 people. Your story's. It doesn't line up at all.

[A]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[B]

And it's like, no, that's not how that predator did it. He had a way. They always have a way. Just like serial killers, right? They always have a way. They always have a trophy. If you're the one off, you know, if we're lucky enough to have that many people come forward and I can identify the pattern. That's a really great way to see who's lying too.

[A]

And when. And what have you found to be. I mean, it does always seem it is not the kid whose mom is the classroom mom or the kid whose dad is also coaching football. It's not the kid that has the parents all around. Which not to make a parent feel badly if they're not the parent that's all around. But it is something that if that is your situation, you almost have to be hyper aware and talk to your kid even more so because you know that they are maybe left in the after school care and things like that.

[B]

It's those kids, it's the vulnerable kids, it's the prepubescent kids when everyone else is hitting puberty. But it's definitely.

[A]

Wait, what do you mean someone who's behind in the younger looking kids.

[B]

Oh, because that's a. Yeah, that's a, A pedophilic attraction. Right. So if you're coaching a bunch of kids who are around 13 and some are starting to grow pubic hair, they're not going to be. The pedophile doesn't want that. Right. He wants the prepubescent.

[A]

Oh, I thought it was because that kid was feeling even more awkward and lonely that they were also could be a victim.

[B]

I think that's definitely part of it. That's a part of the grooming. Like in all of these cases, the minute the kid pushes back, the guy's done. He's. I'm sorry, the predator's done. He's gonna move on to the next one. He wants to give you subtle, like you were saying. He wants to give you subtle ways, get you high, show you porn, keep moving forward and then see how far you'll go. And if you push back, then it's not gonna go all the way to sodomy. Yeah, let's move on. Let's grab another one.

[A]

I always remember with the Michael Jackson stuff. And even Corey Feldman, I remember in an interview said, well, he did nothing to me. But I do remember in one interview, it's just my memory that Corey Feldman said he was with Michael Jackson. And Michael Jackson had a book open that was like a science anatomy book, but it was on the page of, like, genitalia and like a male body with, like, a dick. And he kind of was like, oh, do you find that interesting? Or whatever. Well, that was the bait.

[B]

That was the moment.

[A]

And he didn't take it. And also I was like. And also, you were already like a working actor. The kid whose mom was despot to get their child to be the next Corey Feldman. That was, you know, just in a background dancer or something.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That's the one. So it's like when people. When someone say. When anyone would say, well, Harvey Weinstein was nice to me. Yeah. For whatever reason, you either wasn't the target or you did give off some vibe that you were not going to be an easy target.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I'm so glad Harvey Weinstein's getting pummeled in prison right now.

[A]

Oh, my God. And then he's, like doing interviews and he's like, I don't know why Gwyneth said that about me. I helped her career. I wish Bradley Cooper would call me. He wouldn't be here if it wasn't for me. But one thing he did say. Cause I just saw this somewhere, that someone kind of summarized the thing. He did say that he is nice about his ex wife, the fashion designer. He likes that she's dating Adrien Brody. He said that he's good for the kids. And he does talk to those. I think he talks to those young kids. He said he only talks to two out of his five kids. So I don't know if he talks to them or the older ones. But I kind of thought that he's like, she didn't deserve that. I was cheating on her all the time. And of course he calls it cheating.

[B]

Cheating, yeah. Sexually abusing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe because he's getting old and senile, too. Like, maybe he's starting to let a little slip or feeling a little nostalgic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, like in the Clinton deposition, when Clinton saw the photos and he was reminiscing, whole demeanor changed.

[A]

That was just like. That was like so old, grandpa. Like, wait a minute. Let me. Let Me see that one. And the attorney's like tugging it away. That's when I was like, oh, my God.

[B]

Just like Les Wexner, when the attorney was like, if you say something over

[A]

five words or something stab you in the neck. It was like something like, it was, oh, my God.

[B]

This is why I'm trying to help Congress. Cuz I'm like, no, guys, you're starting too high. Those are pointless depositions. We need the doctors, we need the chefs, we need the gardeners, we need to. The House Oversight needs to subpoena all the people that ran the estates, and we need to start building the pattern and the cases that way. We need to build a rico. We need to get everyone at the top in trouble, but we've got to lock in the bottom first.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know why that either. And I mean, we would. I mean, yeah, they would tell the truth. And I don't even think people would be critical of them.

[B]

Or they could be. I forget the word protected.

[A]

Yeah, right. But also like in. In their position. Yeah, of course. Who were the housekeepers? Who were the, you know. Yeah, the chefs and everybody else that was around all that stuff.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

I want to get. Just before we close up the Duggard thing, like, what do you think about all these now reality shows of like, Secret Wives, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and reality and the TV people knowing that this is also fascinating because it breeds this kind of person that, you know, gets married young, doesn't have a lot of experience. However, there's so much divorce in the Mormon situation, which I was sort of surprised about because I'm like. I thought the whole point was like, you're tied to this person till the eternal life. But they seem to get divorced and it seems to be. Okay.

[B]

Well, the people, the Mormons in Utah despise these shows. Right. And despise these women. Like they're.

[A]

No, I just came from Salt Lake City and yeah, they do not like it. I thought maybe. I wondered if they did because I just thought, you know, it's the ultimate mlm. Multiple, multiple, multiple level marketing and that, you know, instead of knocking on everyone's door for two years in a mission, you're like seeing them on tv. Does that make. Because I'm thinking there probably are young women that are fascinated by these beautiful girls and their babies and their long hair extensions that they're like, I'll join the church if it means I can be on TV and dance in front of an iPhone with these girls. I wonder if there are any young girls that are trying to join the church in hopes to meet these girls and get on a TV show.

[B]

I bet that definitely. Yeah. I think that the majority of people who respect the religion and actually like are true Mormons find it disgraceful. But I think, oh my gosh, yes. The fame. The fame of Taylor. Like, that's her name.

[A]

Yeah, Taylor, Frankie, Paul.

[B]

Yeah. I mean now she's infamous. Maybe it's not fame, but yeah. There are so many young people who want to be famous and we have different avenues now for fame.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yeah, they're searching it out.

[A]

I just wonder if, like, how did they, how did the news get out between this. Are they on a group text with their 19 kids and their 30,000 grandkids? Like, by the way, you guys, hey, heads up. Easter is going to be a little different this year. Joseph's been arrested and so is Kendra's wife. And we're going to pray for the Lord to bless them. And that girl that chose to want to relive something that apparently wasn't something she wanted. Like what? Yeah, I mean, I. And I would be so freaked out if my. If I knew someone who was married to one of these boys. Because now being that there was a second one, there's more. You're like, is more gonna come out, what's my husband doing at night or at work or whatever? I mean, you'd feel like, when's the third shoe gonna drop? You know, already two have dropped.

[B]

I think probably soon. Right. Starts to really snowball.

[A]

One thing you said was, you know, you clarified by saying not necessarily a man. We have seen so many cases of women teachers, mothers molesting young men. Young, not men, sorry. Young boys. You know, 13, 14, 15. Of course, Mary Kay Letourneau is the most infamous one in which she had two children with him, did her time in prison and then married him. She since passed of cancer. But there's so many. There was the. One of the. Just recently she was the mayor of the town, had a pool party with her son and the son's friends slept with the son's friend. That whole thing happened. That kid was under 18. What do you think is the psychological. Have you studied what kind of a woman who is a teacher who pursues her male students who are under 18?

[B]

Science wise, of course it's not studied as much. Right. But it's not the same as this abuse of power and authority, wanting to overtake someone's life. That's kind of the, the higher level psychopathic harm that men will do. And then you've got like the pedophilic men who have emotional attachments who think they are entitled to teach a child how to have sex and in fact it might actually help them in life. All these cognitive distortions. But with the women, what we find is it's not multiple victims, it's usually one. And it's usually an emotional connection, it's validation, it's something that fulfills her that she's not able to fulfill herself. And it's completely fucked up.

[A]

Still, I always wondered if it had anything because it's, you know, the most popular scenario. The high school thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That the teachers, you know, Maybe she's under 30, she's very attractive, she has a husband and she starts sleeping with, you know, her 15 or 16 year old student who is kind of a stud, but she pursues him and of course it has horrible effects on his life and is weird because again, this is your first experience. But then it was romanticized like I'm hot for teacher and songs and oh, and there's always after every arrest, if she's attractive, which they all seem to be, it'll be like, I wish that was my teacher. And that kind of comments and things. I always wondered if it was some kind of mental situation where it was like, you choose to be a teacher. And one time I did think about some of the girls that I went to high school with that went on to be teachers and I was like, well, you're finally the smartest one in the room. Like there was not to put down teachers. And this only for a couple of them that seemed to always like, like I'm like, yeah, you know, you didn't go the route of being a lawyer or a doctor or whatever because then you would have been surrounded by other smart people. This way. You are the authoritative person. You are the smartest one in the room. You're teaching them. And then I was like, is there something about also seeing when it would be like a pretty girl? Like, I peaked in high school and now I like teaching high school. I like being around that high school life. And now I've been in this marriage for five years and maybe it's not so great. And this is exciting and just like you'd have a work relationship with someone at your office. This person you see every day throughout the day.

[B]

Yeah. And they're popular. Yeah, right, they're popular. And they're in charge and they get into. Teachers are very close with their students. A 17 year old boy who's 6 foot 5. You know, I could see teachers really. I mean, that's why they have ethics, that's why they have so much training so that they don't get psychologically manipulated by themselves into thinking that this is justified and it's okay, you know.

[A]

But then, you know, with the president of France, he, he. There's been different stories. One was, she was his teacher, she was married with three kids. He went off to college, got out of college, and then she was divorced and they started their relationship. Other people say, no, I think something happened there and you know, whatever. But I mean, it's, it is interesting that in those scenarios and Mary Kay Letourneau, whatever, there are these situations where it lasts and it works. And there are some for men too. You know, I had a situation when I was in high school and we were doing a play and it was a man and a woman who directed the play. Okay. And this one girl had already graduated from high school, so she was like a freshman at the junior college and she was the junior director of it. And you know, when you're doing plays and stuff, a lot of people massaging each other and whatever, giving massage. And I did see that she was getting massaged by the husband and I was just like, that's weird. That's weird that she like lives with them and that she's, you know. But it was like the mom wanted her to live with it because she was also helping the little kid that was also there, helping with like the art direction, whatever. And then I'm just going to call his name, Joe, the dad. Okay, so who was the art director guy? Years later, I'm doing real estate and I'm sitting on an open house and she comes in and she. Long red hair and she's very pretty and this little, she has a little daughter now too. And she was like, oh, you know, I'm like, oh, how's everything? Daughter's okay. And she's like, oh, this is Joe's daughter. And they, they, I guess were together, they broke, they got divorced. The couple got divorced and she did marry him, have his kid, but maybe she wasn't 16. But it was definitely a weird situation. Don't know where they are today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, but like that, that, that sometimes it does result in like. Yeah, a marriage and kids and everything else.

[B]

Who knows how, how it turns out? But yeah, yeah, it's, it began predatory.

[A]

Yeah. I also Want to just talk about this latest video that TMZ is covering? It's Gypsy Ros Lee and Gypsy Rosalie, Gypsy Rose. What's her last name? Blanchard, who, you know, was convicted for participating in her mother's murder. The guy that she actually got to kill, the mother who was Munchausen by proxy and absolutely was a horrible person. He, I think, is spending life in prison or much longer time. She got out. She got the TV show, she got the nose job. She's looking a lot better. She had her teeth fixed. She's had a baby, but now she's single and she's doing this video with some other girl who's a big tiktoker. And she's like, never have I ever. Something like that. And so she's like, never have I ever killed my mom and did time for it and making light of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. How do you feel about that?

[B]

To me, like, there's two sides. Right. Like, we're all like, the vengeance. I'm so happy that she fought back.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But also, like, we're not making light of this. Like, we can't make light of this because we can't encourage the millions of people who watch that video to think it's okay to murder someone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Like the whole way, like, other things could have been done, you know? Yeah. Police could have been involved. So I think it's more like it shows her immaturity. Of course, you know, I'm a little bit proud of her, but also, I think, like, she needs to be very careful about how she uses her platform and her fame now because, I mean,

[A]

her show was canceled.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[A]

Yeah. So I think she is, you know, going, okay, what? What? How do I keep this rolling and, you know, bait and. Yeah. And why not, like, whatever.

[B]

Well, we need a new bachelorette.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Gypsy. I mean, ABC really fucked up on that, didn't they? Let's push that to the line.

[A]

And I wouldn't be surprised. That might be the next one.

[B]

There you go, abc, here's your pick.

[A]

Every mother in law is excited to meet her. See her walk through on hometowns. My God. Yeah. That's amazing. Okay, so let's talk about a little bit more because there's just so much going on in what you're covering. What do you think is going to happen with the Zorro Ranch?

[B]

It's really interesting because I. I do think the stories by several of the survivors are viable. How they have said to fill people

[A]

in so Zorro Ranch is where he had that New Mexico house branch.

[B]

Right. It's 7,000 acres that Epstein had.

[A]

Can you just talk a little bit about it? Cause I feel like you hear about the island. The island, the island. But there's this whole other place in New Mexico and that very interesting looking couple have bought it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To run some Christian retreat for kids. Let's talk a little bit about this. Yeah.

[B]

So Zoro ranch is about 7,000 acres originally owned by Epstein or his estate or someone. It also won the Powerball for $80

[A]

million, like four days after someone representing the estate won it.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think Epstein went into the gas station.

[A]

I've seen these lottery things, and this is really true. Didn't he win it also? Like, didn't or someone in his world win the lottery when he was in Miami or in Florida?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Statistically, very unlikely that he's won it twice.

[B]

Yes. I mean, this guy is like seriously running the world. Running the world. But the survivors of him do say that they overheard and were even just told that the bodies were buried in Zora Ranch. But there's also an incinerator on Zora Ranch and there are grave sites, if you look at it from above. But they are actively investigating it. I would just be curious. They are melan. The representative. Melanie.

[A]

Finally somebody's bothered to go over there.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think people were going. And then getting in trouble because they weren't professionals.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

But I think now finally it's actually a police investigation. Now if the FBI gets involved and wants that stopped, like, who knows? But the representatives have been pushing very hard with the local police to. To get cadaver dogs out there. DNA analysis, start digging up.

[A]

But. And then the. The evidence to go and look into it is girls saying that they heard that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then what were. And on then also their journals.

[B]

In their journals they talked a lot about horrible things happening at the ranch. And then survivors have talked about when, again, like the snuff videos that were occurring at the ranch. So where they were being forced to sexually abuse other children and then end their lives. And adults would end the lives or they would end a child. Would end a child's life.

[A]

And do you think in those cases that these children were, you know, from poor families or third world countries or something where it wouldn't be a big poster of this person missing and where did they go and we need to find them?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, definitely. I think a lot of the parents were paid and I mean, the primary person to traffic A child is the biological father that's in this. You know, the stats are like what, a hundred thousand kids in this country alone a year? I think that's way too small.

[A]

That are trafficked.

[B]

That are trafficked. I'm sure it's way more than 100,000. But then you look to the more poor rural countries and yes, they, they took payment, orphanages took payment, they brought in girls. But Epstein also had a very specific baby he wanted to breed. Like, he really liked Virginia Giuffre because she was blonde and blue eyed. Right. And so if these guys. And if you can see this in the files all over, but if these guys impregnated one of the girls, that's where Epstein would reply in an email. Whoops. Google whoops. Or put it in the files and look how many times he says whoops. But he would then send them to the dentist and he'd want before and after pictures. The dentist was the abortion. Right. But he kept the ones that looked the way he wanted. And in one of the journals, the

[A]

girl, you got the babies.

[B]

The babies. One of the journals, the girl says she was pregnant three times. Never got to. To see the babies. Where are the babies? You know, he also had. His sperm is still in a cryo chamber in la.

[A]

Who owns that? The brother.

[B]

The brother needs to do some fucking talking.

[A]

And didn't the brother also. What I've seen is own or run the apartments in New York. That I think is pretty conclusive in my opinion, to have been where these girls would stay and have to, you know, be trafficked.

[B]

Yeah, There were like 17 apartments, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then they had an interior designer who recently spoke.

[A]

And some of those Girls were over 18, though. Some were. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Some were. In Glenn Maxwell's trial, The youngest was 14. But in these files they're way younger. And you can tell because they have menus of children in the files. They have names of celebrities or people they wanted to access. And then they have numbers next to them, like their preference in a child. So they had these menus they were putting forward to try. And again, they were grooming people to get, to get things out of them, just like we talked about earlier. But they were grooming high level people. So like they, they, they had a KGB guy in there. They were grooming him to access a Norwegian guy. And then they were, Jeffrey and whoever else were figuring out what their little fetishes were and then making those fetishes come true. And you know, we have one and

[A]

then, then the blackmail starts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To get them to do what they want or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Get their info or their money or whatever. Yeah.

[B]

And don't worry, this is all secret. No one will know. We'll fulfill your fetish. There were videos. I mean, Pam Bondi on a hot mic. There's 12,000 videos of little girls. They're not showing any of that to us. The UK just subpoenaed the files. You think they're really going to get them? I hope.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But when Prince Andrew got arrested, it was for. It wasn't necessarily for any sex crimes. It was like, him.

[B]

What was it like, abusing his job authority or something.

[A]

Yeah. By sharing information about the Royal Family or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And with Virginia, I mean, what do you think? Cause I've never. I have not read her book.

[B]

I think she.

[A]

I know her story. Yeah, no, I know her story, but, like. And then. Cause, I mean, then she said. Then she gets married, and you think that she's living a nice life. She finally escapes this awful life of where Ghislaine and he wanted to have her baby, and she was like, you should have his baby. And, you know, and that's when she finally, like, escapes. Then she meets this nice guy, we thought, and is married and has kids, comes forward, but then was, like. Said that he was abusing her, and then she was getting divorced. And then she ended her life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think she ended her life?

[B]

I do. Only because. Only because I know. I know people who knew her very well at the time, and she was in a very, very bad mental state, estranged from her kids and her family, and she was stuck. She. She took settlement money from people from predators that were involved with Epstein, and had she spoken out about those particular people, all that money would have gone away from her kids. So she couldn't, like. Sure. She found a little bit of justice. Well, she never really found any before she took her life at all. But there's the. On the podcast Broken with Tara Palmieri, Tara and. And Virginia go around and they confront people that Virginia remembered from. From the island and from being around Epstein in New York. And there are moments of validation, but it's a really.

[A]

She could they confront him how? Like on the phone or something?

[B]

No, they went to the houses. So Juan is a good example. He was, I think, a house manager. He was driving Maxwell around, and they would pick up girls they needed to, you know, fulfill the menu. And so Virginia and Tara went to Juan's house on the podcast. I think it was paid for by Apple. I'm not sure. And they started talking and Juan was like, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Like he started saying, you know, yeah, there were little girls everywhere and he was validating her. But then all of a sudden his phone rings. It was the FBI. So he stopped talking. And since then he has refused to talk. That's someone who needs to be subpoenaed.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Tara is an independent journalist. I mean, but knowing that Virginia went on that journey and just got shut down left and right. And then just how do you not after being trafficked and horribly abused for so many years, you can't fight against that depression. I mean, I can't even imagine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, you know, the bus accident

[A]

and what's the bus accident?

[B]

Right before she.

[A]

Oh, that's right.

[B]

Right before she died. She said she was hit by a bus, I think, but she was pretty bloodied and beaten up, like in her

[A]

car or like walking.

[B]

Walking, I think.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's right. That's right.

[B]

Maybe that was a self harm attempt. Maybe it was an accident. But she wasn't in a good mental state.

[A]

Right. And then you're like, sick and maybe taking painkillers and not. Yeah. In a. Yeah. Already in a vulnerable place.

[B]

So I don't think someone took her life. I think. I think Epstein and everyone who abused her took her life through her mental state, and they should be accountable for that. And that's where we have those coercive control bills where you can actually get in trouble. Now in Australia, especially Australia, where this happened.

[A]

What does that explain?

[B]

That if somebody takes their life because you abuse them psychologically, you are held liable and you can be convicted now. And we have about seven states in America that are pushing bills for that too.

[A]

That's kind of like we've seen those cases where that one young girl told her boyfriend to kill himself. You better do it. You said you were gonna do it. Why aren't you doing it tonight? And I do think she got time.

[B]

Yeah, she did.

[A]

Oh, that was awful. Getting a little more on this. Do you. Do you think Epstein killed himself?

[B]

No, not at all. I actually have talked to several people who specialize in, like, autopsies, and I've, like, really. I want to educate myself. Right. It. It doesn't line up. And like, some agree with me and some don't and they have the training. I don't. Right. I'm not in there cutting out the heart and checking it out. But the files say he didn't have a prostate. He had a prostate when the body was examined. His urethra was.

[A]

He didn't have a prostate because, what, he had prostate cancer and it was removed?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then this body had a prostate.

[B]

His body had a prostate. You know, he also had an odd shaped egg, like, shaped penis with his urethra located on, like, one side. And the autopsy didn't have that. I mean, autopsies go into fucking detail, right?

[A]

An odd shaped penis. Because the victims have shared, and the

[B]

victim shared, and they. He was asked about it in. In a video deposition and declined to. He. He looked notably pissed off when he was asked about it. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, and this one didn't have an odd shaped penis.

[B]

Yeah. And then the autopsy said he had small testes. The victim said otherwise. Of course he has small, small testes. But there are so many things. Like the. The strangulation was not how you would scar. It was not how you would strangle. It was angled more horizontally when it would be angled more upward. The breakage of the bone. This. I forget what this is called, but the main neck bone was broken in so many places. And one of the doctors who has done this for 50 years said he's never seen it hanging. And the brain bone break like that. So there's just so many discrepancies.

[A]

So, okay, so then. So then now there's like, there's two things, right? There's one, it was him, but he didn't kill himself or this guy. This person's who they found. Yeah, they killed him. So it didn't look like he. But it was all not. But it was not Epstein.

[B]

Right. So.

[A]

So then where is Epstein?

[B]

Well, I think we'll have some insight because they. They subpoenaed the prison guard.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Now that.

[A]

That whole thing was. There were two guards. They both fell asleep at the same time.

[B]

Yeah. And oddly, the video footage cut at 23 seconds when the body was moved in. Epstein purchased two ambulances right before this. I mean, he had tattoos. He didn't have tattoos on the autopsy.

[A]

So that tattoo really was. That they showed? Well, I mean, you see so many things, like. Yeah, and I'm like, I don't know. Is that. Did he really have, like a. A 90s, like, bar wild?

[B]

No, that was a stick on. He had other tattoos that were real.

[A]

Oh, he did.

[B]

Yeah. And again, he's naked getting massaged by survivors. They know what his body looks like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, I mean, if you're thinking, you know, he's running.

[A]

I always remember right when it happened that the profile was different.

[B]

The profile was different. And I don't know, when you die, things start to move. You know, I'm not that familiar with, like, where does our filler and botox go? And we die. I don't know.

[A]

But that was like they. It was like him being rolled out. And the profile was different.

[B]

It looked very different. And then people have, you know, constructed earlobe profiles, and his ears look different and everything. But if, sure, we can think of conspiracy, but we also have to think of the bigger picture. This guy was running the world's biggest money drug sex trafficking ring. He had. He has tea on everyone. He probably has tea on Putin. Right. He had the KGB there. He had everyone. You don't think, like, once he thought he was gonna get caught, he had an out plan. And then the guard on 4chan wrote that they came in with a body at midnight. You don't in prison with a high profile person make any movement at midnight.

[A]

But who came in with the body? Somebody said somebody came in with a body?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who said that?

[B]

I don't remember their name, but it's in the email, is in the files. And the FBI also reiterated the email stating that they received the email.

[A]

So, I mean, I thought those photos of who they thought those photos of a guy walking around Israel. I thought those were AI. Yeah, that's not.

[B]

And then we've got this Palm beach guy that.

[A]

Oh, I. And then they have the Palm Beach Pete. Palm Beach Pete, who is like, loving life, doing TMZ interviews. New Yorkie, just what you. He seems like a good time, but he's not Jeffrey Epstein. No, but I mean, listen, once guys get to a certain age, I mean, I just joked in my act about how my husband, you know, as a golfer, and I'll go to the. To the country line, I'll be like, Peter, like I, you know, gray hair, the outfit. People start to think, you know, couples, even older couples start to look like each other. Like a lot of people can kind of look like. Especially an older Jewish guy with gray hair that lives half his life in New York, in Miami. Sounds, you know, so. So what do you think? You don't know. You. I don't. Do you think he's alive? Do you think Epstein's alive?

[B]

100.

[A]

Oh, you do think he's alive.

[B]

Yeah. The reason I think he's alive is because he was way too powerful if he could. If he could get into the Powerball. I mean, he also, he was convicted way earlier, and he somehow got a work release.

[A]

No, the weekend jail. Yeah.

[B]

Like, what the fuck? Like he had too many Ways to pull strings. And as it started to tighten down on him, why wouldn't he have an out plan? And he was paying $5,000 deposits to the prison guard.

[A]

But I'm just wondering. Let's just hypothetical. So he's alive somewhere. If you were to guess, what does that life look like when you're living in hiding but you have a lavish lifestyle? You have. You have access to a lot of money to keep it nice, but it's not like you can have 30 people around you every day making you sushi. What do you think? Where do you think he is? What do you think he's doing?

[B]

I would imagine plastic surgery. Like, he probably changed what he looks like.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And I would imagine. And again, anyone tell me I'm wrong, I would love to not be right. Right. I don't. I don't want to be right. I hope the guy's fucking dead and in hell and rotting. But my guess is he's in Russia. I think we're putting so much on Israel, but there was a lot of desire to get to Putin. Putin's mentioned a lot. There were a lot of interactions with the KGB in the files.

[A]

And what about Ghislaine? Because. And I call her Ghislaine. What about Ghislaine? Because I talked about how that image of her with now short, dark hair again, like her signature haircut, even though she went into prison with, like a grayish bob, now she really. You're going to go back to prison and cut your hair and get hair dye. And then the nose wasn't the same. What do you think? Where do you think she is?

[B]

I still think that's her in prison. I just.

[A]

You do?

[B]

My assumption is she's just not aging well, but the fact that she was moved to a lower security. They took her off the federal sex offender registry, and she's basically blackmailing Trump. So I think she's still alive or else we wouldn't have kind of those details of what she's doing right now with everything.

[A]

But why would they even release that deposition or whatever it was when she's in the orange jumpsuit talking? Why were we even privy to that?

[B]

Why were we allowed to see it with Todd Blanche? The recent.

[A]

Yeah, the recent one where people felt her nose was different. I felt her nose was different. I kind of wondered if there's somebody that. I wondered if she, too, is not there and somebody that works within the government or whatever or not is just literally doing their time playing as her at the easier prison. So it's not hell. Because I remember before her trial there was someone, her family defending her, somebody defending her in like a 2020 who was like, she is in the worst, like whatever the Rikers version is for women. You know, rats are crawling around and I thought, oh, this is. They're putting her in a really bad place that she'll tell. But then she really didn't or she did and someone protected her. I mean, I don't know. We don't know. But I was like, you know, is there somebody that's like, they find somebody and they're like, hey, you're gonna be ghislaine for six years at this lesser prison and you can work with the dogs and you're going to get, you know, a million dollars a year for it. And maybe somebody would say yes to that. You know, like, maybe I would do that.

[B]

The thing is that, like we're questioning

[A]

that,

[B]

like the government's throwing.

[A]

I think there's a lot of people that are like, you know, 50 year old women that offered that they would be like to then walk out at 56 and have $6 billion in. Yeah, I'll go to the prison and play Ghislaine for six years.

[B]

But like we are dealing with something bigger than Watergate. And we're like, it might not. They might have switched her body out. Yeah, like this is what the administration did on purpose. It's hyper normalization. They dumped all this shit.

[A]

So I know that's what I said. I go, why did you give us? Like, why did you give us. I basically felt like I was in school. We were told to do this big group project and then at the end they're like, oh, by the way, that doesn't go towards your grade. And you're like, what? So many people, we thought this was gonna be the whole thing. Like, what does it matter? And then you do get exhausted by it. You do. And like.

[B]

And traumatized.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, sometimes. I mean, it's. Well, it has been so interesting to talk to you again and you really do a great job on your social media. So tell everybody. You know where they can find more of you and you have a YouTube page and tell everybody.

[B]

Yeah, just Dr. Leslie, Dr. Leslie Dobson on Instagram. TikTok is probably going to be violated because of all the Epstein content.

[A]

YouTube, I'll start going violated, like your, your own thing or like TikTok's gonna go away.

[B]

Are you getting violations for talking about it?

[A]

Oh, you do? How do they, how do they tell you you're getting a Violation.

[B]

You get, you get like a strike on your notification and then it's like, strike, two strikes.

[A]

But what, how do they justify the strike? I mean, it's in the news. Like, how do they say it? You know, that's so weird.

[B]

I think AI, it's just, you know, it generates something. Yeah.

[A]

Algorithm.

[B]

Like they have code words, they probably overly strike because they're trying to censor things. But, you know, I got a strike for talking about Candace Owens and that was pretty neutral. So I don't really know.

[A]

What do you think of Candace Owens? Let's just wrap it up because I'm like, what do you think is going on there? Did you see that? She made merchants that said daddy's home, Shabbat shalom. Making fun of the fact that Erica Kirk had said that. I think what is going on.

[B]

Candace is brilliantly diabolical and clout chasing. And I think what the world needs to understand is that she maximizes on propaganda. She is epic with stringing you along with a little bit of truth and then. Yes.

[A]

Holding a pen and being like the source that I have. That's going to tell you everything that you need to know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That'll all make sense. Like, it's pretty.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She's very, very good at stringing everyone else along, but not actually providing any substantial information, but like rallying the excitement. And sure, she has a lot of ends and knows, but man, her friends talk so much about her. People will tell me. So, like, she, she makes fun of her audience. She makes fun of people believing her. Like, she's, she's playing it, she's doing it for the money now. I don't know what. We're not talking about Macron suing her now, right? Oh, wait, whoopsie. We.

[A]

But, but they are suing her, right?

[B]

Yeah, we've been distracted again, Candace.

[A]

Yeah, like, that's right. How's she gonna get out of that one?

[B]

She's. She's not. I think that's why she's not talking about it.

[A]

Not talking about anymore. But still. Yeah, I mean, I would think she would have to pay something.

[B]

There's no. There's gonna be a trial in Delaware. Right. Like, I mean, I've never seen a president sue a podcaster. And in her rebuttal she wrote, oh, I'm just a poor podcaster out of my basement. She is what she is when she wants to be what she wants to be and taken seriously or not. And that's part of the propaganda. That's part of the false Image and the. The team that she's rallied together to. To basically annihilate Erica Kirk, who. I wish I had never known who Erica Kirk was. I know I don't want to know these people.

[A]

It's just like, what? Like, what are we watching, Erica?

[B]

Where are your kids? Like,

[A]

and then there was one thing that was. Someone said they got the domain name of vance. Wait, no. Vancekirk.com Two days after Charlie's murder. And I said, yeah, but who got that domain name? Because someone has heatherydoll.com and it's not me.

[B]

Was it Toby? Somebody has your.

[A]

Yeah. Heathermcdonald.com, somebody bought before I ever had a website, because they were just, look, you know, people just buy it because they think you might be famous or whatever. Yeah. And then when we tried to get it, they wanted $10,000. And I just. We said no. So it's Heather McDonald dot net. But, like, I'm saying, like, it doesn't mean that she bought it or that J.D. vance bought it. Like, someone just bought it because they were, like, smart enough to go, what?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then they also want to see. And the things that also people don't realize, you know, is there's this whole world of betting that is not just about teams. There's betting on, you know, if there's a speech, how do we bet that he's gonna say these five things in it? This, that. Who's gonna be, who's gonna win? Who's gonna. You know? So I'm like, that's a whole nother world that people make money that make this crazy movie that we're living in. Cause it's truly a movie. I believe that we are living in a movie. I'm like, whatever. And sometimes I'm getting into it, and then sometimes I'm like, I want to throw my phone into the ocean. And, like, it's just.

[B]

Could it be the Truman show that it is.

[A]

We're like, literally, I don't know what this is. And then, like, one day, like, one day, it was all, oh, Barack Obama did a podcast. And he said, yeah, aliens are real and they're here. But it was like a small podcast. It wasn't like you went on, like, Joe Rogan or somebody or even Michelle's pod. You didn't even do it on his own wife's podcast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, that's weird. All of a sudden, he does, like, he's a guest on some smaller pod and just to put out about the aliens. And I was like, oh, yeah, like another distraction. We cared about the aliens when they were hovering over New Jersey. We don't care anymore.

[B]

And then Trump, remember the study was opening. Yeah. And Trump then said or tweeted or whatever fucking platforms that he's going after the aliens.

[A]

Like, this isn't.

[B]

People are dying. People are dying every day. And this is what our media is doing. And our leaders. Like, that's why I say vote. I don't care who you vote for other than somebody who has a fucking backbone.

[A]

Yes. And. And also vote for the person that you know. And the. For the most important is your. Your actual immediate, like representatives. And vote for the person that is cracking open fraud and things like that. Because that's the only way we're going to ever have a change. If everybody just keeps staying. That's always in this. In this rat cycle. And they can't get out either.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because their job and their livelihood and all this depends on this scam to continue. Which is why new people need to come in, you know, for sure. Well, it was so great talking to you. I mean, it's dark shit, but at least we can. It's all over the map sometimes. Laugh a little bit about it. No, we covered a lot. Duggard's Zora Ranch, Virginia Candice, Candace, Erica, Kirk, Elaine. I mean, this Juicy crimes. Thank you,

[B]

Sam.