Hot For Teacher Turns Deadly and The Wrongly Convicted Are Exonerated

Summary

Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald

Episode: Hot For Teacher Turns Deadly and The Wrongly Convicted Are Exonerated

Date: January 28, 2026
Guest: Maggie Freeling, Host of the Bone Valley Podcast

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Juicy Crimes" features two main segments: a recap of recent true crime stories with particularly juicy twists, followed by a deep-dive interview with podcast host and investigative journalist Maggie Freeling. Heather and Maggie discuss the flaws in America’s justice system—that can lead to multiple wrongful convictions in one case—while spotlighting the human stories behind these tragedies. The tone remains conversational, sometimes irreverent, but always focused on exposing injustices with compassion for those affected.

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Heather’s “Hot for Teacher” Update

(00:00–05:45)

• Incident in Billings, Montana:
  A geometry teacher, Jason Raider, was stabbed multiple times by a female student during after-school hours (Jan 13th, 4:23pm).
  • Both are now recovering; the attacker also stabbed herself.
  • Social media speculation claims the student is a well-known, attractive Tiktoker, who frequently posted in schoolgirl outfits.
  • Theories swirled about a possible inappropriate relationship, but evidence points more toward her having an obsession with the teacher, including stalking behaviors and fascination with movies portraying student-teacher affairs.
  • The student was also reportedly obsessed with Jodi Arias (notorious for murdering a romantic partner).
  • Heather: “I've never heard of someone having an obsession with wanting to be with your teacher... that you would go to these lengths and actually hurt them and then hurt yourself.” [05:45]
  • Both are physically okay; identities remain closely guarded due to legal/privacy issues.

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True Crime Case Updates

(05:45–15:56)

1. Celeste Hernandez Case:

• Celeste (teenage girl) found dead in singer David’s Tesla trunk.
• An arrest (Neo Langston, streamer) made for not appearing as a witness, but the main suspect, David, remains at large.
• David is believed to be transferring assets to his mother, perhaps in preparation for future lawsuits.

2. Ohio Dentist Double Homicide:

• Dentist Spencer and wife Monique Teepee murdered at home.
• Suspect: Monique’s ex-husband, Dr. David McKee, who claims innocence.
• Heather shares a creepy story from a listener who once dated McKee: he was controlling and stalkerish, adding an unsettling dimension to the portrait of the accused.
  • “He seemed very controlling and she was really creeped out.” [09:49]

3. Canero Brothers Murders (New Jersey, 2018):

• Paul Canero on trial for murdering his brother Keith, Keith’s wife, and their two children, then committing arson at two locations.
• Motive revolves around financial disputes from a shared business/trust.
• Prosecution: Paul was under financial stress; evidence includes a ring camera argument just prior to the murders.
• Defense: Motive implausible for $10,000, suggests another brother, Corey, could also be culpable.
• Heather on defense strategies: “It’s always interesting when defense does that. It’s like... look over here!” [12:36]

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Main Interview: Wrongful Convictions and “Bone Valley”

(16:26–57:24)

Maggie Freeling’s Journey & Approach

• Host of acclaimed crime podcast “Bone Valley”
• Extensive experience in criminal justice and prison reporting, initially motivated to “help people who are marginalized, who can't use their voice.” [18:48]
• Maggie has worked border/immigration stories, then moved into DOJ and prison work.

On Visiting Prisons:

• Maggie finds prison experiences “humbling,” with guards often being the most intimidating barrier.
• “The scariest part is trying to get through into the prison.” [19:59]
• Every visit brings a reminder of freedom’s value: “I don’t know if I’ve left prison one time without tears in my eyes.” [21:09]

Notorious Case: David Thorne in Ohio

(22:32–26:40)

• Convicted of murdering the mother of his child in 1999; the crime scene was contaminated and police conduct was questionable.
• Maggie invested a year trying to prove his innocence but ultimately concluded he was guilty, after finding no evidence of coercion and confronting him on lies.
• “When you’re looking for evidence of innocence, you need to find evidence... We weren’t finding anything. Every witness stuck to their story… In fact, we found more witnesses who were telling us information about his guilt who were credible.” [25:03]
• David Thorne “had the personality of like a David Koresh. He was handsome, charming...” [26:10]

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The Quincy Cross / Jessica Curran Murder – “Bone Valley” Season 3

(26:47–57:24)

The Crime & Mass Convictions

• In 2000, 18-year-old Jessica Curran found brutally murdered and burned in Mayfield, Kentucky.
• Five people (including Quincy Cross) wrongfully convicted; the Innocence Project is working the case.
• Case began with one suspect, then switched to “a whole new group” years later, based on a citizen sleuth’s intervention.

Details & Timeline

• Initial suspect: Quincy Cross, a young Black man, in town for partying, was noted to have smelled like gas after a car breakdown—days before body found burned.
• Seven years later, a witness (Victoria Caldwell) fabricated a story implicating Quincy and several others.
• Four others charged: Victoria Caldwell, her cousin Tamara Caldwell (who hadn’t met Quincy at the time of the murder), Jeff Burton, Venetia Stubblefield.
• None of the stories or “confessions” matched physical evidence.
• Heather: “How were they committing a murder together in 2000 if they didn’t meet or know each other until 2003?” [33:09]

Coercion & False Confessions

• Victims of police pressure; teenage girls at the time, from vulnerable backgrounds, threatened with loss of children or “a needle in the arm.”
• “The story that was concocted was made through pressure, coercion, threats, and that's where we’re at now.” [35:02]
• Some witnesses held in hotel rooms for hours by men from the now-defunct Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, outside parental knowledge.
• Venetia Stubblefield, whose IQ was 67, held out for seven years before finally giving in under duress.

Maggie:

• “Venetia... is the biggest hero in this today. I mean, she probably has the worst life out of everybody today besides Quincy [who's in prison]. She did do time... and when she got out she had nothing. She had absolutely nothing.” [38:30]
• “These girls have now taken their power back and said, no, we were coerced to lie. None of this is true.” [36:00]

Impact of the Wrongful Convictions

• Only Quincy serves life; most others are out, but lives devastated.
• Quincy’s positive spirit remains: “To even see media reporting a truthful headline for him is just everything... because this crime was huge in Kentucky.” [42:34]

Theories & Next Steps

• Maggie: Theory involves possible police corruption and drug-dealing links, but will be explored in detail in next season.
• Ongoing efforts to vacate Quincy’s conviction as co-defendants recant.

Challenges of Investigative Work

• Maggie explains dangers of investigating in small towns—often more intimidation from police than criminals.
• Stays in remote hotels/Airbnbs; sometimes followed or approached by locals or officers.
• Media interest: documentary projects in progress.

Heather and Maggie’s Reflections

• Wide-ranging discussion of why vulnerable people confess: psychological exhaustion, ignorance of legal rights, and the power dynamics in interrogations.
• The team stresses that the justice system's drive for convictions can override evidence.
• “It's pretty easy to put someone in. ...It is so difficult to get someone out. The system is meant to be final.” (Maggie, [56:35])
• “Prosecutors rarely, rarely admit they were wrong.” (Maggie, [55:35])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On wrongful conviction risk:
  Maggie: "It’s everyone’s worst fear and anything could happen. You could think, I would never confess… But the situations these girls were put in…” [47:32]

• On manipulated testimonies:
  Heather: “They just constantly kept bringing her in and going over, just...grilling her.” [38:22]

• On system bias:
  Maggie: "The police were caught in a scandal for dealing drugs out of the evidence room." [42:42]

• On coerced confessions:
  Heather: “This is why people confess to crimes they haven’t committed — because it’s a mind thing.” [48:27]

• On representation:
  Maggie: “They all had public defenders…a couple did try to raise alarms...but the system just continued.” [54:28]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00-05:45: Billings teacher stabbing case
• 05:45-15:56: Crime story updates: Celeste Hernandez, Ohio double homicide, Canero brothers
• 16:26: Interview with Maggie Freeling begins
• 19:59: Maggie on fear and reality of prison visits
• 22:32: Maggie's “Death and Deceit An Alliance” case story
• 26:47: Graves County/Jessica Curran murder case deep dive
• 35:02: How pressure on witnesses led to wrongful convictions
• 38:30: Venetia Stubblefield’s coerced confession and aftermath
• 42:34: The toll on Quincy Cross and his family
• 47:32: Maggie on the psychology of coerced confessions
• 56:35: Systemic barriers to overturning wrongful convictions

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Where to Find Maggie Freeling

• Listen: "Bone Valley" podcast, Season 3 (Graves County) and the Pulitzer Prize-winning "Suave"
• Follow: Instagram @MaggieFreeling

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Summary Takeaway

Heather McDonald uses her comedic, relatable voice to explore the lighter and darker sides of true crime. This episode weaves tabloidy headlines and real justice system horrors—including the deeply chilling story of five people convicted on the basis of lies, rumors, and coerced confessions. Guest Maggie Freeling brings an insider’s passion, empathy, and deep research, making a compelling case for increased awareness of how justice miscarries—and the long path to exoneration and healing for the wrongly accused. This gripping conversation is especially urgent for fans of “true crime” who care about actual innocence, systemic reform, and the very human cost of getting it wrong.

Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

Foreign. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. Well, today I have an absolutely great juicy interview about the wrongfully convicted and how a town has several people like this in their town and the woman that helped get some of them exonerated and and the juicy journalism that she does. But before we get into that, I wanted to tell you about a new crime that came to my attention as well as some updates of ones that we've talked about on the show. Again, thank you so much for subscribing to Juicy Crimes. If you have not already, please leave a review and like and share and all the good things on YouTube and Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to this. So thank you. So this is brought to my attention today and it is going to be the way I heard about the news eventually. First was different Facebook postings and people kind of doing their own investigation that live in this town. I thought it was so crazy.

I'm going to tell you what's out

there in the news and then I'm going to be a little sensitive in what I share is going on in social media. There was a stabbing of a teacher named Jason Raider who was a geometry teacher at a high school in Billings, Montana. And this happened on January 13th and there was lots of activities going on. It happened at 4:23 in the afternoon and there's reports that he might have been doing tutoring but he had a regular routine and he had a student come that he was familiar with who was a female, stab him several times in which he ran out and was able to tell somebody, please, like warn everybody about this person. And there was like a lockdown and there was other things going on. And there was a wrestling teacher that spoke about how, you know, scary it was for everybody. This woman or girl that allegedly did the stabbing then went off and stabbed herself several times according to the news. They are both okay, but they didn't name this woman. They so I don't want to name her either. Apparently she is 18 but maybe she's not and maybe that's why they're not saying who it is. So this is where it gets weird and juicy. So social media and people that live in the area believe that it is a huge tiktoker that's very attractive that has become famous for doing just showing off her looks every day which are basically like school girl outfits. Very attractive, tall, thin blonde girl and basically just stands in front of the

camera and it's just like crosses her

legs and stands there and is like this is my outfit. It's very much Kind of like the clueless type clothes. And I looked up the TikTok and that is all appears to be true. She appears to be a very pretty young woman. This episode of Juicy Crimes is brought to you by Jones Road Beauty. Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional for effort list routines. For a limited time, our Juicy Crimes

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And then

there is also talk that, that she is also a trans girl. Not that that makes any difference, but it just adds to the intricacies of this story. So crazy. And, and I've never heard of someone having an obsession with wanting to be with your teacher that much that you would go to this links and actually hurt them and then hurt yourself. So who this maybe she's been. Maybe she is being confined into like a 5150 or something, I don't know. But she has not posted on this Tick Tock account since the day before this stabbing and she seemed to have posted on a daily. So maybe by the time you guys are listening to this, this story will be out there. But that's why I'm not saying the Tic Tac. That's why I'm not saying what Tik Tok account it is and who it is. But as far as juicy crimes go, this is pretty juicy. And the good news is is that both of them have recovered from these stabs. His by her and allegedly and then her own self inflicted. So I don't know if she was trying to make it look like he stabbed her first, I don't know. But it happened at 4:23 on a school day. So very very strange. Okay, update on the case of David the singer with Celeste Hernandez whose teenage body was found in the singer David's Tesla trunk. They have arrested a streamer named Neo Langston and brought him in because he failed to show up as a witness in this case. So they did arrest him. Doesn't mean that he is seen as a potential co conspiracy conspirator or a murderer. But there has been an arrest made. They still have yet to arrest David who owned the Tesla and did all the music videos about dragging a girl into the back of his car and things like that. Like it was absolutely crazy. He is still walking free. He's transferred all of his property and things to his mother's name. I guess assuming that there will be a wrongful death lawsuit whether he gets arrested or not because of association with Celeste. But we'll see. It seems like we're inching more towards it. Another case I wanted to that I talked about was a horrible case in Ohio where the young dentist Spencer and his wife Monique Teepee were shot dead in their home. They have arrested her ex husband. This is where I said it was so strange because she was married to this guy over 10 years ago, never had kids with him, was with her current husband Spencer for the last five years. He drove a couple hundred miles. If in fact he is is the one who did it to do this horrific crime. Did spare the children who are four and one from any harm. But he is saying he too is a doctor. His name is David. Dr. David McKee and he is saying he is innocent. He is. He has claimed his innocence in this. What's interesting is I had a Juicy scooper, Patreon person, reach out to me. She dated him and it was sort of a casual dating. It was before all the social media. So she really didn't know much about him. And at one point he. They had not been intimate yet and she was seeing him and she kind of needed a place to stay for about a week between apartment moves. And he offered, you could stay in my other bedroom. She's like, yes, that's what I would like. I'd like to stay in your other bedroom. Then when she got there, he was like, actually, actually, no, you need to stay in my bed. And so she's like, no, I'm not

going to do that.

And he's like, oh, you're a good Catholic girl. And then one of the nights he just, she woke up and he was in her bed and she was just like, no. And he's like, no, you really need to sleep in my bed if you're gonna stay here. And she just, he seemed very controlling and she was really creeped out. And also during that time, if she was on the phone with him, he'd be like, where are you? And she'd say, oh, I'm at Starbucks. And then within like seven minutes he'd be like, hi. And he'd show up there like before you could track someone on the phone, just her telling him.

So she got a really creepy feeling. She was already talking to her now

husband and she ended it with him. And I just think, wow, that. And that would have been before he was married to Monique, which he was only married to her for just a couple years between I think it was 2012 and 2013, not even a two years, I think was a year and a half. So we still don't know what the motive was, what triggered him to ignite this kind of weird stalker behavior. If in fact it's him though, they have incredible evidence, hence why there was such a swift arrest. His car was seen there and there was the weapon and all this other, these other things. Also I've read that he was not a good doctor, that his career was not going well, that he had done several things that were not were malpractice worthy kind of things in his career as a doctor that were all coming to a head. So maybe all those things really factored in. Another case that I talked about here was this awful case about these two brothers that worked together. And the one brother, Paul Canero, is now on trial for killing his brother outside of the brother's home. His brother's name is Keith Going into the home and then killing the wife and the two small children and setting the house on fire, then going to his own house and setting it on fire, but then being able to escape with his wife and children in the attempt. This happened in 2018 in the attempt,

according to the prosecution, to.

To make it look like, oh, my God, some horrible person was after both of us and our families. Thank God we got out alive. They think he did it because they have on, like, ring camera right before the brother Keith, yelling at Paul, saying, I need the login for our trust account. You took money from it that pays our insurance. And enough of this, like, we are done with. Also, there was a witness that said he was talking to Keith about getting him another type of corporate job on Amazon. And Keith was thinking of just ending this family business altogether in which he shared with Paul. It appears that Paul lived a very lavish lifestyle, spending about 750 a year on all of his cars and homes. And he wasn't in financial. He was in financial distress. And there was this other woman that is also appeared in this trial who at first it was reported that she was the girlfriend. Now prosecution is describing her as just his friend. She said, we're best friends. That they've traveled to Columbia twice, which is weird. I think she, like, worked for him somehow and that she does pay for her own things. But he did lease a car for her. So originally we thought was this money that was taken from the trust account for the girlfriend. And that is part of the defense. The defense was this money was only $10,000. Why would he, you know, kill his family that he loved for just $10,000? And the defense is like, there's a third brother that would benefit just as much as Paul from Keith dying with the insurance money. And that brother's named Corey, and he's really worse off than Paul. So it's always interesting when defense does that. It's like the other person is not arrested, but they're like, look over here. Like, there's not enough evidence that Paul did this for these reasons. And so he is claiming his innocence as well. And now for our very juicy interview. I hope you enjoy it all. Thank you so much, guys. I know we are over the caked makeup look. Especially now when you're running around doing your thing. It's not the in look anymore. The look is being natural and showing off that you have healthy, glowing skin. But not all of us have that without nothing on it. And that's what I love about Jones Road beauty, because this is Amazing. I put it on every day when I'm not doing full camera stuff, when I'm running around going to pickleball, doing errands. And it just gives me that effortless, natural look, which I know you always love. And that is why the miracle balm is really replacing multiple steps in the routine. You can use that as a highlighter, a bronzer, a blush, even a lip tint. It's the ultimate no fuss multitasker.

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[Heather McDonald]

hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I'm very excited to speak to my guest, Maggie Freeling, who is the host of one of the top crime podcasts in its fourth season, Bone Valley. Welcome to Juicy Crimes, Maggie.

[Maggie Freeling]

Hi, Heather. Thank you so much.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, this is such an incredible podcast. I want to get a little bit just from you and your background and how you got involved in covering it and how the podcast has gained so much attention and been featured on numerous TV shows.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, so this case came to me from my colleague Jason Flom, who is a philanthropist, works in the innocence world. He was a record executive. He knows a lot of people in prison and he got a call from a guy who calls himself Sherlock Homeboy because he does a lot of investigating in the law library and he knew of this guy, Quincy Cross, and said, you know, this guy is innocent in Kentucky. You should look at this case. And usually when we get personal wrecks like that, we'll look. And the second I started looking, I said, oh, my gosh, if you never seen a case like this. All my years working in prisons and doing what I do, seeing five people, what I believe wrongfully convicted for one murder was just shocking. And then digging even more and finding there was nine people actually charged. You know, the more I dug, the crazier it just got.

[Heather McDonald]

And so the crime that you're talking about right now is that that's the current season. Because your show has four series, like four seasons.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. So it's basically, you know, there's Gilbert King and myself, and he did the first two seasons, which follows Leo Schofield's story. And then I pick up season three, which is a totally new story. We're in a new county. We're in Graves County, Kentucky, whereas the other ones were in Florida. And now there's a new season that just came out, Ear Witness. I forget where toforrest story is. It might be in Georgia. I forget. But, yeah, they're all, you know, wrongful conviction based, you know, miscarriages of the justice system.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so let's get into now season three of Bone Valley. First, I just want to ask you a little bit because you mentioned working in the prisons dealing with wrongful convictions. Like, so what's your background and interest in everything?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, so when I started in journalism, basically I just wanted to help. And the way I knew how to do that was just being a pretty lady. I knew people wanted to listen to me, so I said, okay, let me use this voice to tell stories of people who are marginalized, who can't use their voice. And that took me to prison. Eventually in my career, I started working mostly in dhs. I was doing a lot of border reporting. It was when the huge migrant crossings were happening. I visited a few detention centers, and then that took me to doj. And so that's kind of where I've been, the Department of Justice, and just seeing everything that happens in that world is really wild. And there's so much work to be done there.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, is it scary going and visiting people in prisons? Like, we always think of that scene from, like, Silence of the Lambs, you know, with poor Jodie Foster, like, walking through. I mean, what's the scariest part about it? What's not scary about it? Like, what is when you go and actually, like, visit and Start speaking to some of these people that you're covering their stories.

[Maggie Freeling]

So it's so interesting. I find prison to be so humbling. And the scariest part about it I do find also is the guards. I mean, it's up to them whether you get in or not. And they can just have any arbitrary reason. I was with Kalia Ali, Muhammad Ali's daughter once and we were visiting someone in Michigan and they made her change her clothes three times for arbitrary reasons. You know, it was that cut about an hour out of our already time constrained visits. So for me, the scariest part is trying to get through into the prison, you know, and then once you're in, usually you're meeting in like a large room. It's kind of like how you see in movies. You can't get up unless, you know, you raise your hand and the guard says you could get up because there could be a fight breakout at any second, you know. But I find it so humbling because you're going into this place that, you know, you can leave and the person you're talking to cannot. And I don't know if I've left prison one time without tears in my eyes, just knowing that I get to walk out of here. And this is your life. This hell that I just went through for, you know, 20 minutes. You do every single day.

[Heather McDonald]

And in talking to some of these people, you know, I, I just was talking about, on Juicy crying with my sister about the Menendez brothers and how people want to get them out. And I'm like, but they're also. At least Lyle has cheated on two of his wives. You know, like they're still there. You know, it's like they're not these perfect guys and. But I say, but, you know, I can see why women fall in love with them because it's like they have a man, this guy's devoted to them. He's writing them love letters every day. They're kind of sexy. You know that they're going to be there every Sunday. You don't need to track their phone. On 3 Live360. Has there ever been something where someone has convinced you that they are that good guy and then you see the criminal come on through?

[Maggie Freeling]

I don't know if you're setting this up because you know the answer, but yes.

[Heather McDonald]

No, I really don't.

[Maggie Freeling]

Okay. No. This was one of the worst moments, like in my life and career was I started it's. The podcast is called Death and Deceit An Alliance. It was originally called Murder An Alliance Five Years ago, I did a live investigation, like real time, releasing the episodes. And I really thought this guy was innocent. And I brought on two private investigators and we traveled through Ohio, door knocking, trying to figure out, you know, if David Thorne was innocent. And I adored him.

[Heather McDonald]

Wait, can I just interrupt. Can you just briefly tell us the crime that he was convicted for?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. So David Thorne was convicted. Blanking on the year, I believe it was 1999. It was April Fool's Day, 1999. And. And he was convicted of murdering the mother of his child. And she had four other kids. She was a mother of five. She was found with her throat cut, almost decapitated in her home with the kids still inside. And so David was charged and convicted of this, and he always maintained his innocence. And this is one of those cases that has been featured on ID shows. There's always been some person looking into his innocence. So the next person was me. It was, you know, all these journalists had looked into it and kind of really got nowhere. So I was super intrigued, believed in him.

[Heather McDonald]

Why did you think that. That the prosecutors got it wrong?

[Maggie Freeling]

So to start the. I forget at the time, again, this was five years ago. One of the lead detectives, I believe it was the chief, brought a civilian woman into the crime scene. Just to start. Just brings this woman to just look at this dead body, basically. So the crime scene from the start was contaminated by civilians. We saw in pictures, you know, police were walking around without foot coverings and there were bloody footprints. So the whole thing, to start, was contaminated. And then just the circumstances of this case they presented, nothing really made sense. I still don't believe he got a fair trial. I do believe the right person is there, but I think just it was completely botched. The police department a couple of years before had gone through all this corruption scandals. So it wasn't something that people felt really confident in for sure.

[Heather McDonald]

So did you. Did you just kind of think like that they just rushed to judgment and he was, you know, the boyfriend, and there just wasn't enough evidence without reasonable doubt, partially.

[Maggie Freeling]

There was also a lot of talk about her being involved with a lot of the officers and with the corruption we know a lot of them were involved with. There was a lot of questions about, well, what did she know? Did someone. So there was a lot of unanswered questions. And it took us a year of investigating to come to the conclusion that, you know, we were looking into a case that was solved.

[Heather McDonald]

And how did you figure. How did you. What did you kind of realize that that you were going down this path.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. So it was the pri, the private investigators before myself. This was my first like real time investigation. And what they were finding was that when you're looking for evidence of innocence, you need to find evidence. And that could be in a recantation or it could be, you know, physical evidence. We weren't finding anything. Every witness we talked to that in the past, we heard, you know, oh, they were lying. They were put like, pressured by the police. We thought some of these people were CIS and they would finally 20 years later be like, no, I was pressured. None of that happened. Everyone stuck to their story. In fact, we found more witnesses who were telling us information about his guilt who were credible. So, you know, it, it, even if he is or was innocent, we weren't even finding anything to help his case. And it just came down to we, we can't do this anymore. And, and personally, we think you're in the right place. Caught him in lies. I confronted him in those lies.

[Heather McDonald]

Was he charming?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes. He had the personality of like a David Koresh. He was handsome, charming. Um, you just adored him. And in the last episode is when I confront him on the lies and this charming person, you just start hearing like that cult leader personality start revealing itself. Um, yeah. So that I was, it was a horrible moment in my life where I felt betrayed by myself. I felt betrayed by this person that I believed in. So it was tough.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh my God. Okay, so now let's go and, and tell us a little bit about what attracted you to this story.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. So Graves county, it was Quincy Cross. So it was when I found five people wrongfully, or what I believed again was wrongfully convicted for Jessica Curran one murder. An 18 year old's mom was found brutally murdered, beaten and lit on fire. And Quincy Cross and four other folks were convicted of this. And the Innocence Project has taken the case. And with them we have found a lot of new evidence that shows man

[Heather McDonald]

what year and what locate, use. This is Kentucky, you said?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes. So this is western Kentucky. It took place in 2000. So actually around the same time as the other murder. It was in August of 2000 when her body was found. And the original story that was told implicated two completely different people in this under a completely different circumstance. And then fast forward seven years later, that same witness witness is now telling a completely different story with new characters. Quincy Cross is now involved and his former girlfriend and this girl now puts herself at the scene. And so the case went through three different law enforcement agencies investigating it. So that made it very messy. Then you have all these different witnesses telling all these different stories. It almost is incredible he was even convicted in the first place because of how just unbelievable the evidence is.

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Heather McDonald]

So this guy, Quincy Cross, was he a teenager too? And these other people said they thought it was like a gang of wild teenage boys. What did they think happened to this girl?

[Maggie Freeling]

So you mentioned earlier, like imperfect people. And so Quincy's certainly an imperfect character. You know, he was at the time in his 20s. He was dealing drugs. He came to town with some friends to deal some weed, maybe pick up some coke. And as he tells it, he was like drinking and drugging, doing what kids do. So Quincy was in town for a party and he got arrested that night. Going to find food, he said at around 5 o' clock in the morning, the car he was in broke down and an officer found him smelling like gas. Quincy Says he smells like gas because the car broke down. He was putting gas in the car. When they find a burned, dead body a few days later, they remember the guy that smelled like gas. And Quincy winds up seven years later being arrested.

[Heather McDonald]

So why seven years later?

[Maggie Freeling]

Quincy was kind of, you know, they realized this police report, this guy that smells like gas. But then almost right away, in 2000, this young girl, Victoria Caldwell, comes forward and says, I know who it was. It was Jeremy Adams and Lolo Saxton. So instantly, no one thinks about Quincy Cross anymore. We have this girl who says she knows who it is. Jeremy and Lolo are charged. Those charges are dropped in 2003 because the prosecution lost evidence. They were unable to be charged. A citizen sleuth comes in and literally says she was called upon by God to solve this case. And we find out later she had motive to steer it away from the first two people. And lo and behold, we get the name Quincy Cross from the citizen sleuth. And from there, we get this crazy, diabolical orgy, rape burning story, when in reality, there was no evidence of a sexual assault at all. There was no semen. Meanwhile, in some of these tapes, you hear the officers grilling these teenage girls about semen when there was none. So even the stories don't match the evidence. And it's again, just shocking that this man and four other people were convicted.

[Heather McDonald]

And how did they find these four other people? Who are the four other people?

[Maggie Freeling]

So the four other people are Victoria Caldwell, the witness who said, you know, she knows what happened. It's her cousin, Tamara Caldwell, who had dated Quincy Cross in the past. A random guy named Jeff Burton. He's the random white guy that gets thrown in the mix. That's how he's referred to as the white guy. And Venetia Stubblefield, Victoria and Jessica Curran's friend, the five of them all get charged, convicted. You know, Victoria, being a witness, took a plea. She didn't really do any time. They all wind up.

[Heather McDonald]

Were these people all, like. What was the proof? Were these people all even hanging out together that night?

[Maggie Freeling]

No, they all had different alibis. Tamara, actually. Tamara Caldwell, at the time, she had just given birth and had a C section. So the idea that this woman was out with her C section a week after giving birth, raping, bludgeoning, you know, this young girl makes no sense. They didn't really know Jessica at all. And I don't know. I'll. I'll give one bombshell because there's a lot I'll give your listeners like One Little Quincy and Tamara, the two people that are convicted of this murder, who dated, did not even meet until almost three years after the murder. So how were they committing a murder together in 2000 if they didn't meet or know each other until 2003? None of the story makes sense yet. That gas, that gas smell and the fact that there was a burned body is what convicted him. The prosecution knew. All of this is confusing. All of these people are telling different stories and really doesn't matter what they say. Just remember there was gas and this guy smelled like gas, and that's how that happened.

[Heather McDonald]

And so, I mean, is it that all these people just. They just don't have good representation or. And before they know it, they did. They, like. I always wonder when this happens. Like, it's obviously everyone's worst nightmares that you go to. Go to prison for a crime, most likely murder that you didn't commit. And how are you supposed to hope and pray as years go by that there's going to be any hope and appeals don't happen. Like, when you talk to these people, the day that they're like, oh, please stand for, you know, what the jury has come in with, do they think there's. Because they're innocent? Do they think, there's no way I'm going to get convicted?

[Maggie Freeling]

Almost all of them. Almost all of them think that in that moment, they're like, there's no way. And then it happens. Yeah, the. The crazy thing with this case, too, is that there were the two people I told you about that were charged, charges dropped. These five were convicted. There were two other people who were charged with this murder as well that we never even hear about, because they were charged on a whole different story. One of them was actually convicted, the other was acquitted on different stories of the same murder. Like, make it make sense, you know, but the way this one happened, to answer your question, is vendettas. This young girl, Victoria, was a teenager at the time, and she was a, you know, unwell. A lot of these people were living on the margins. Mayfield, Kentucky, is a really rural, poor town. There's not much to do. So a lot of these people were involved in drugs and stuff. A lot of these young girls had kids in their 15, 16, dropped out of schools. When they started being leaned on by the police, they had a lot to lose. The police were threatening, I'm going to take your kid if you don't tell me this. So the story that was concocted was made through pressure, coercion, threats, and that's where we're at now. Quincy just got an evidentiary hearing. Um, were in the process of vacating his conviction hopefully. And all of these girls, and they're women now, but I still think of them as the girls back then. They have all now come forward, reclaimed their power and said, no, we were coerced to lie. None of this is true. Quincy Cross did not do this. We were not there. I was told they were going to put a needle in my arm and kill me. Like they would get the death penalty again. 16 year old girls thinking their kids are going to be taken away from them. They didn't know any better. Drugs, you know, will put you in jail for the drugs, you know, we know your mom's doing crack. We'll take your mom away. So that's so much of this story. How did it happen? Was power coercion lies on very young, vulnerable people.

[Heather McDonald]

So these, so it was these girls that like were coerced to say it was him. Did any of, were any of the five people that are doing time for this murder, were any of them female?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, so, so three of them. Tamara. And then there was Victoria and Venetia. So Victoria and Venetia are the two main girls. Victoria is the one who came forward in 2000 and then later again in 2006. Venetia is interesting because she was the last person to see Jessica alive. And her story was always consistent. I saw her walk away, we said goodbye in the middle of the street around 1am from for seven years, Venetia told the exact same story. I have watched these interviews. They are painful to watch. This once teenage girl now in her twenties, being asked the same questions year after year. Seven years. She finally breaks and she's in this chair, just wants to leave and just says okay. I left with her and we got in a car. She said okay, seven years. Her story finally changed and that's how they got the conviction.

[Heather McDonald]

So they just constantly kept bringing her in and going over, just rating her.

[Maggie Freeling]

And she's the biggest hero in this today. I mean she probably has the worst life out of everybody today besides Quincy, who is doing life in prison. Everyone is out, you know, there.

[Heather McDonald]

So she's still in prison.

[Maggie Freeling]

She is not. But she wound up unhoused. She's not really mentally well, it devastated her life. She did do time in prison and when she got out she had nothing. She had absolutely nothing. And she still has nothing. She's still a convicted felon. You can't get a job as a convicted felon. You know, so I've picked her up on the side of the street because that's where she lives. It's a really sad story, just about how power ruins lives and. And the. And, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Did she say, like.

Yeah.

Finally one day I just changed it because I got sick of saying it. I just wanted out of that room. Like, how does someone, when they reflect back and realize they did have a forced confession, like, how do they explain that to someone?

[Maggie Freeling]

She really thought she would never be able to get this over with. Like, they found her in North Carolina. They were just coming for her. And it. Like I said, there was three different police agencies. So there was sometimes state police, kbi, they would bring in, you know, North Carolina. She felt like she was being stalked and followed, which she was. Law enforcement could find her, and she just gave up. And the time she gave up was when the KBI agents came in, they brought.

[Heather McDonald]

What does KBI stand for?

[Maggie Freeling]

The Kentucky Bureau of Investigation.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Maggie Freeling]

They came in, and they're not like the FBI. This is like a totally different entity. They don't even exist anymore. They were created for this case, and that obviously didn't go well. So now the agency doesn't exist. So these guys come in, and instead of taking these female, young, female witnesses to a precinct like a normal place. State Police, Mayfield police, anywhere that's normal. They take them to a hotel room where they question them for an indefinite amount of time. Some of these girls parents didn't even know where they were. And so they're sitting in this hotel room with these giant law enforcement officers grilling them for Tamara. Said it was about nine hours before they even gave her a break. Yeah, Venetia was going to say anything to get out of that room. She was going to say anything to get out of that room with these men who. It's all in testimony now, touching them, groping them, just really inappropriate. They've said anything to get out of that.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow.

And so for Quincy, how has he lived the last 25 years?

[Maggie Freeling]

It's been hard. You know, him and his dad are very close. David Cross is getting old now. He's in his 70s, and he wonders every day, am I gonna see my son get out of prison? So Quincy wonders the same thing. Am I gonna be able to hug my dad before he dies? So it's been tough. But I'll tell you, Quincy has amazing spirits. You know, seeing him at the courthouse now with all of this attention and all of these people and, you know, the girls who had testified against him, now being like Nah, screw that. Like that never happened. We are literally taking our power back. It feels really hopeful. And I think for him, who was once this villain in this horrible, horrible crime to even like see media reporting a truthful headline for him is just everything, everything to have his name back. Because this crime was huge in Kentucky. I mean, these kinds of murders don't often happen out in western Kentucky, especially at the time. So he was a big villain and it's really vindicating.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, in your investigation, I mean, do you have a theory that what happened to this young woman.

[Maggie Freeling]

I do. And I'm not going to give anything away because there is going to be a part two of my season. So we are going to do a part two of grave. So that'll be in it. But we talked a bit in season one about there was a lot of connections to the local police and corruption and drug dealing and potential inappropriate relations with underage girls. And that storyline has not gone away. And there was always questions whether the first two people involved or questioned charged with this murder. Jeremy and Lolo, they were known drug dealers. The police were caught in a scandal for, you know, dealing drugs out of the evidence room. So it's always kind of been thought maybe Jessica got involved in this somehow and something happened to her. That's the closest I think I'll get to knowing what happened. But we're going to explore that in the next season.

[Heather McDonald]

In this kind of work that you do where you're really like boots on the ground investigating it,

is this like a scary job for a female?

Like is your, is your family, like where, where the, is Maggie and what

is she doing now?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, it's really scary. No, they're super scared all the time. And it's definitely. Yeah, I mean like I go into some really scary places. I'd say scarier than prison, to be honest. Some of these places I go to, for sure. You rogue neighborhood. Yeah, the neighborhoods, the bars, rogue police officers. Be honest, sometimes I'm more scared of the police in these towns. Often the people in the towns are scared of them. And we put a lot of that testimony in season one of officers in Mayfield being scared of their own. So small towns are.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, I always. My brother in law is a criminal defense attorney and one thing that he said that always stuck with me, me he's like, cops, especially correctional officers, it's like they could have gone either way. They, they're usually, you know, it's like. And now they're in the prison. Like they could either been behind the bars or they go become the correctional officer. And it's kind of like the same type of mindset from the same town, from the same. Which I just think, like, oh, yeah,

that's crazy and scary.

[Maggie Freeling]

They know. They all know each other, too. It's like they. Some of them went to high school together, and it's like, yeah, they. It is. And, you know, I grew up in New York City, so, like, for me, it's just so interesting because, you know, dealing with NYPD is completely different than a small town police force.

[Heather McDonald]

So when you go and investigate these things in a small town, where do you stay? I mean, yeah, there's no plaza. Like, where are you just staying? Like, some small motel? You get Airbnb. What do you do?

[Maggie Freeling]

So in Mayfield especially, there was no hotel because there was actually a tornado that decimated the entire town. So when I say there's nothing in Mayfield, like, I'm not kidding. We had to stay in a hotel 40 minutes away in, like, the biggest town. Sometimes there's Airbnbs. But, you know, one time when I was in alliance, the murder and alliance story, we were followed by the police, and we. People knew where we were staying. Like, we had a person find us in our hotel and, like, give us a letter. Luckily, it was, like, a nice letter, but, like, that was definitely scary. It was the one hotel in town, so where else would we have been?

[Heather McDonald]

So when you say we, is it

just you and, like, one other producer?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. Yeah. And so when I was in Alliance, I had the two PIs with me, luckily. But, yeah, when I've been in Mayfield, it's just been me and a producer. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And then you guys have been featured on a lot of shows. Like, has anyone approached you about making your life, like, a television series or something? Because I could totally see it.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, we got reached out to a bunch. We're in talks right now with the. We got reached out to you by seven companies. So we're in the talks with the final two right now, which is really exciting, you know, just to make a documentary about this, too. Like, I want it to be. There's so much more to this story, too. Like, it's Quincy's story, but it's so much these girls story. Like, I really wanted them to shine in this, for people to understand how these things do happen. And it's. It's like you said, like, it's everyone's worst fear and anything could happen. You could think, like, I would never. I would never say that. I would never confess. I would sit there for 15 hours and just never. But, like, the situations that these girls were put in, I just.

[Heather McDonald]

I just remember, you know, I'm a comedian.

I just remember, like, somehow this, like,

we made plans or I made plans

for this lady to come over.

I wanted to get, like, new furniture for our house. And she, like, drove from, like, some faraway place, and then she, like, brought all the books and all the fabrics and all this stuff. And I had, like, worked all day on the television show. And eventually, like, Peter was, like, went to bed. My husband, like, went to bed. I had little kids. I just was so tired. And I'm like, I just don't know what I want, you know? And she just kept pushing me and pushing me.

And then I, like, go to the bedroom.

He's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm looking for the checkbook. I have to write a check for $16,000. He's like, what are you talking about? We haven't even sat on one of these couches. Like, what are you doing? And then that's when I said, oh, this is why people convince, you know, confess to crimes they haven't committed. Because it's literally, like, a mind thing.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

And you just are like, I just

have to get out of here.

And so did any of these young girls. I mean, I know that they were in these weird situations in hotels, and they're, you know, girls of, you know, lower economic status. So did they. Did none of them think to say, like, I gotta call a parent. I. I need an attorney?

Like, no.

[Maggie Freeling]

And that's the thing, too. It's interesting because they were also, like, street savvy. You know, a lot of these girls grew up on the street. They dropped out of school when they were 16. So I think they also felt like they could deal with it on their own. Like, I think they were like, who do you think you are? It. It wound up really, really bad. It's really interesting. And I'm sure you might notice doing this work, too, is like, a lot of people really don't know their rights. And everyone I ask who went in. And granted, a lot of these people have been in for decades. So I feel like more people know their rights now because of true crime. But I ask every single one of them, did you know you could call a lawyer? Did you know you could have your parents? They were like, no, I didn't know. And what. What did I know? I didn't know anything. Some of them say lawyer, and they just keep being asked questions that didn't happen in this case. They. I haven't seen it on tape. They. Tamara says she asked for an attorney, didn't see it on tape. But I do believe her. They turned that tape off many, many times, starting and stopping, starting and stopping.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And I always wonder, like, how the training. I'd like to see a video on how they train the good cop, bad cop. And when they're in that tiny room with the styrofoam coffee and they're like, so. Like, close, like, just so trapped. How many. What kind of psychological training did those people get? And I always wonder, do some of

those cops ever feel like later on,

like, they have post traumatic stress because they realize, like, it was just so fucked and unfair. Especially if you're dealing with someone.

Whenever it's like a.

A false confession and then you find out the person, you know, was borderline, like, you know, mentally slow, like the very. Like a very low iq. And then I think in times there's been convictions. This one that I always bring up secrets. At Silver Lake, where this woman was convicted. Do you know that one?

[Maggie Freeling]

I've heard of it, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

She was convicted of getting her boyfriend to kill her husband. And they were so obsessed with getting her, like, he's gonna get out before her, and he shot the guy.

And it was like, you know, they made it so, like, oh, she.

She was giving out trays of food at Costco, and he was the young fireman, and she, you know, and then after they taped all the calls and everything, and I was kind of obsessed with it, and I.

And there was nothing in there.

I mean, there was a lot of evidence, but. But there still was nothing in there that would have convinced me 100% she knew he did it because I thought she was really, like, kind of dumb. And I remember I covered it and I talked to, like, her uncle, and I said, I know she's, like this pretty blonde, you know, and got married young and could handle being a mother, but did anyone ever think to, like,

test her IQ as a defense? Yeah.

Yeah, I think sometimes I. And the defense attorney never thought of it. The next person never thought of it. And I'm like, meanwhile, this young guy was, like, extremely smart, homeschooled, became a firefighter at 21, was, like, all into the Bible and could quote, you know, quote Bible things.

And she was like, oh, hi.

You know, And I just thought, like, I think oftentimes, because you don't look like you could be slow, like, if

you are an attractive girl or guy.

And that's Just not what you typically think. It doesn't mean that you could not

be the dumbest, most naive person ever.

[Maggie Freeling]

Absolutely. And you mentioned the IQ. Venetia has a 67 IQ. They talk about it all the time in this case. And she was the siren witness.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, we always talk about IQs, but I'm always like, how do. When do you. Unless you're like on trial for murder, when do you get tested for an iq?

[Maggie Freeling]

Apparently we do it in schools.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

Okay. I've raised three kids. I've never been told what their IQs are. I've never been tested with my IQ. I sometimes see it like on your phone. Well, I guess for your iq. And I'm like, I kind of want to do it. And then I'm like, oh, who has time?

[Maggie Freeling]

So how.

[Heather McDonald]

And what is what is considered normal, what is considered below normal, and what is considered like, oh, you're a genius.

[Maggie Freeling]

I know the 60s are low because Brendan Dassey, the making a murderer person, he, the young one, he has a 64. So I know that was like, considered very low. But yeah, I think, like, I guess if your kids maybe showed signs of like a learning disability, they would have tested their iq. I'm assuming your kids were excellent at school.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I always feel like, you know, when also when you, like meet people, you see someone like on a reality show and they're like, I tested genius.

I had a 182.

And I'm like, well, when, when was that?

[Maggie Freeling]

They're full of shit.

[Heather McDonald]

And like, where's the paperwork? When did they, what room did they take? I remember like being tested for scoliosis and I'm like, why does everyone care so much about scoliosis? And then that.

And then with.

By the time my kids went to school, no one cared about that.

And then I'm like, so what?

Like, it's very interesting. But yeah, I mean, I definitely think if I had a client looking at a crime or first, certainly if I thought it was a coerced confession, that'd be the first thing. I would absolutely get them tested, you know, and, and share that as reason. But, you know, then you have defense attorneys or public defense attorneys, and they've got 75 cases on their desk.

[Maggie Freeling]

Well, the interesting thing in this case is, yes, they all had public defenders. When I was watching the whole trial, watching the pre trial motions, a couple of these public defenders did try to raise alarms to the judge and say, look, I think something's really off. I really actually don't think my client was involved in this, which I thought was really surprising for public defenders. They really, at least at the beginning, tried to be like, hold on, we should look at this. I really don't think these kids did this. But, you know, continued. But, yeah, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And I always think about a prosecutor,

like, what it's like when they're all about getting the wins, you know, and especially if they're hoping to be elected DA or go into a. They need to have so many wins and how terrible, terrible it must be

to find out, like, without a doubt,

like a DNA thing that just proves

that without a doubt, this person that you put away for 25 years, like, have you ever talked to someone that's the prostate. Usually when you see that happen, like on a Dateline, they're like, well, we still think we got it right.

Like, they'll never admit they're wrong.

[Maggie Freeling]

But I'm like, they rarely. They rarely, rarely do. And I actually just saw a case in West Texas where since the beginning, people in the prosecutor's office said, we don't think this guy did it, yet they tried him and convicted him. The first news headlines were, no one thinks this guy did this, but that's what it was. He was gay in the 80s, so the headlines were like, we don't think he did it, but he's a homosexual. So whatever. Prosecutors from the beginning in that case were like, this guy didn't do it. So for 40 years, you had prosecutors saying this guy didn't do it, trying to get him out, and it still took 40 years to get him out. And that's the scariest thing about wrongful convictions is, like, it's pretty easy to put someone in. Like, you hear the saying, you can indict a ham sandwich. It is so difficult to get someone out. The system is meant to be final. Prosecutors jobs are literally to fight for finality in these convictions. So you rarely find a prosecutor who will go with the. The defense attorney and post conviction.

[Heather McDonald]

So it's also, you know, when it's not. What I've heard is if you're on death row, that'll get the Innocence Project, and that'll get maybe a high celebrity attorney or personality to want to save your life. But if you've just been convicted for life, you're not going to die tomorrow. So it's almost worse. It's like, it's almost would be better if you were on death row to get the attention.

[Maggie Freeling]

I will say, like, you know, as someone who gets submissions, I. I have a priority. There's people who are out of prison but might still have a a wrongful conviction felony. And their life obviously sucks. But I generally prioritize the people in prison. Prison. Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow. Well, this has been so great talking to you. Tell everybody where they can listen to all your stuff and follow you.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes. So bone Valley Season 3, Graves county is out. Now you can follow me, Maggie Freeling on Instagram. And also I just wanted to plug Suave, the podcast I won the Pulitzer for. It was the first long form narrative show I did about a juvenile lifer. So that one is about what happens when you send kids to life for to prison for life. Gut wrenching, but a great story if you want to listen to that too.

[Heather McDonald]

I'll definitely listen to that. That's so interesting. Well, I'll be following you and I hope all these good things come out of all the scary hard work that you've done that there's some light at the end of the tunnel though. I know you've had great success in the podcast world, but I'd love to see it on tv.

[Maggie Freeling]

Thank you, Heather.

[Heather McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll be in touch. Thanks.

[Maggie Freeling]

Absolutely.

[Angie.com Advertiser Voice]

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