← Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald
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- [00:00]
Heather
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Criminal Prosecutor
Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I'm so excited to talk about many crimes and get the perspective of everyone's favorite surfing DA turned best selling author writing his second book about murder. Everyone's favorite altar boy. Were you an altar boy?
- [00:27]
Heather
No.
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Criminal Prosecutor
Matt Murphy?
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Heather
No. No, I didn't make the call.
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Criminal Prosecutor
Catholic schoolboy. Catholic high school school boy. Wow. Okay. I'm really glad that you joined me today because I have lots of juicy crimes I want to talk to you about. First of all, how's everything going?
- [00:42]
Heather
Good. I've got my second book, this one on serial killers. It's due in 16 days and I have like, it feels like the mother of all English papers at this point. Yes. I have so much to do and I'm, I'm, I, I wrote stuff like two months ago and it's section and it's like I, I really liked it and I'm going back to it now going, this is crap. I have to totally redo it. So I'm, I'm going through that. You never, I mean I, I would revise, I'd still be revising my first one if I didn't have that deadline. So. So anyway, it's part of the process. I enjoy, I really do enjoy writing when I'm not hating it. So. Yeah, one or the other. I agree.
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Criminal Prosecutor
I've written two books, so I know that feeling of just the, your worst English paper, college final hanging over your head.
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Heather
Right.
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Criminal Prosecutor
And then having some days where it is fun or you are like patting yourself on the back in other days. So it is a process.
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Heather
It's a process.
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Criminal Prosecutor
Let's get into a couple things. The first thing is the Murdaugh murders that we've talked so much about in which the father gets convicted of killing his wife and his son by shooting them. And he was convicted for this double murder. But there was a major break that happened where it was overturned based on the jury. And I never understand when I read these headlines. Can you explain?
- [02:09]
Heather
Yeah. So basically, for anybody who doesn't know the case, it is a fascinating story about this family. It was like, I think that he was fourth generation. Fourth generation of, of extreme privilege and wealth in this, in this kind of idyllic community. The way they made it sound. And he, it was a, I think it was the fourth generation of, of lawyers and his grandfather was like the district attorney of the, of the county and just this really like multigenerational, ensconced, very well respected legal family. And behind the scenes, turns out that this guy was, was not A great lawyer and not a great businessman, and he was basically ripping off his clients. And there's also some really interesting questions about the death of his maid that a lot of people believe he was involved in. Is presumed innocent, wasn't charged with that, but I gotta tell you, Heather, looking at that, I probably would have charged him with it and taken a run at him. Maybe they will in this next go round just to.
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Criminal Prosecutor
Just to remind people of the maid situation, which. The Hulu series. I think it was Hulu. Trisha Arquette plays the wife, and she was great, such a great actress. They have this housekeeper that's a single mother of two young boys that's kind of worked with the family for years. The son who ends up getting murdered by the dad supposedly has a real great affection for her, almost like a nanny, housekeeper woman. And the way we understood it is that she, like, tripped on, like, a loose brick on the property and hits her head, but never recovers from that and dies. And then he goes to. He goes to the boys and says, here, I want to introduce you to this lawyer. This lawyer is going to help you sue me because I have home insurance money and you deserve to have that money. And they're like, no, no, no, we would never. Mr. Murdoch, like, you were our mom's, like, favorite, you know, person to work for. He's like, no, this is home insurance. Like, you're meant to get it. They get the money from that. And then he kind of does what? Tom Girardi, Erica Jane from Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, soon to be ex husband, whatever. I don't even know if they're divorced. In which the winnings come from the home insurance and entitled for. The boys are entitled to it. And then he steals from them. He takes that money, gives them very little, and is like, oh, I'll. I'll take care of the rest and invest it. Or he doesn't tell them how much the winning's worth. That's what he was doing, too. Like a legal Ponzi scheme.
- [04:51]
Heather
Yeah, and the way he went about that, too. So he refers the case to this plaintiff's lawyer, and then he. Since he's the person now that will determine the liability, because he's the. He's the witness. He's the person who's responsible for the home. He proceeds to lay out every possible theory of liability and negligence, making it as easy as possible for those insurance companies to pay out. And then he keeps the money. And I'll. I'll tell you when you're talking about somebody, and then they get into it. And what it looks like is this guy has had a lot. A lot of really shady financial dealings, including. I mean, he was convicted in a separate case for all this fraud and embezzlement, and he received a substantial custodial sentence, which he's still in custody for. On. On that by itself. So he's not going any. But it is really. It's really something. And then his son, the one that he murders. The one kind of bright side about this whole thing, Heather, and I think you and I have talked about this before, is he is such a uniquely awful, entitled, spoiled shithead that it's one of the sort of. I mean, I don't want to use the term fun, but I mean, for me, one of the funnest things about reading into this is that I didn't. You know, in so many of those cases, my heart just breaks for the victim and for this. For his son. I had zero sympathy. This part of it is he's got this gigantic. All these. All these financial misdealings and malfeasance with his clients. And by the way, there's nothing in the world worse than a lawyer who would rip off his own client. That's the lowest of the low, like Top Girardi. Okay. Um. But. But his son was involved. He would get drunk, and he's. He's that guy that we all know in the party, right? The guy who would get super drunk. And. But he. He. He was in. He had law enforcement in his pocket because of who his dad was and his grandfather and his great grandfather and this. This family. He gets super hammered. He tried. He. He crashed his pickup truck one time, and they all came and, like, you know, cleaned up the mess after him. Made sure the cops had taken me. He was drunk off his ass. And then there was a really tragic incident where he insisted on driving a boat in the middle of summer, and it was with one of his. One of his buddies whose girlfriend was on the boat. And the son was so drunk and arrogant, he wouldn't slow down. He crashed the boat, and this poor young girl got killed, and her family was suing the Murdaughs. And I've never. I've heard it pronounced both ways. Murdoch or Murdoch. It's spelled out Murdoch. It's weird. I think it's pronounced Murdoch, but I don't know. Anyway, they're suing, and they're making progress, and there is a ruling that they get to get into all the finances of. Of the dad and the law Firm. And the prosecution's theory on this was that he was so angry at his son and also simultaneously believed that if he did eliminated him, maybe somehow a lawsuit might go away or something, but you know, these people.
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Criminal Prosecutor
And also that he would gain sympathy and everyone would lay off of him.
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Heather
Right? And so people.
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Criminal Prosecutor
And yeah, thinking that somebody that was angry about Mallory beach, the poor girl who died of the boat, making it look like some, somebody that was pissed about that crime, whether it was her family or just some other. They're the ones that came to the house to kill the wife and son. And he made it so that he looked like he wasn't there. And all this other stuff which then of course the prosecutor laid out. He was convicted of doing the double murder.
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Heather
Right. And he. By the way, Heather and I've gotten into this with Ashley Banfield, who I really like in a good natured way, but she still has her doubts. There is zero doubt that this guy murdered his wife and kid. And he got caught in a bunch of lies, including a tape recording where, you know, you can hear him in the background when he, when he claimed he was not there on, on a cell phone. And that was another thing going back real quick to the, to the death of that poor girl. There's a video of his son being the biggest asshole after the murder. Like there was no remorse, there were no lessons learned. She was nothing to him. He's just this little psychopath. The world, sorry, became a better place the second that that freaking kid died. Sorry, sorry, sorry. So he, he absolutely did it. His wife either witnessed it, wouldn't go along with it or got in the way, but he killed them both. Desperate man doing desperate things. And some of them may have even been life insurance motivated, who knows, but he definitely did them both. So what happens during the trial? And I actually know the special prosecutor in Waters and he's the real deal. And, and I think we all saw his performance. Kind of a very like hard charging cross examinations. And he's a pro and he knows what he's doing. And he spent a career as a prosecutor and he did a, he did an excellent job. But what happened when the jury was deliberating is the court clerk got a little too friendly with the jurors and she made some comments that you just can't say. One of the things, I saw an interview with one of the jurors where she said, look, she came in and said today is going to be epic. They're putting Mister, Mr. Murdoch on the stand today and boy are you guys in for you. And he can't do that. As a court clerk, the jury cannot be influenced by anybody or anything other than the law and the evidence that they received. So the court clerk got too friendly and she wrote a book and she actually went to getting prosecuted for essentially jury tampering. She end up with like, I think like 30 months probation, something like that. But her career ended. And anyway, South Carolina Supreme Court took it up and said case has got to be retried because this, the integrity of the case was compromised by the actions of, of the, of the court clerk. It's really important for everybody to remember that is not a finding on the merits of the defense at all. Not a finding of guilt or I'm. It's not a finding of innocence. It's a, it is a procedural problem adjacent to juror misconduct. And look, it's a part of the process. Sometimes cases come back and I gotta tell you, to a certain degree, you know, when you're doing high profile murder cases like this, they're all sort of controlled train wrecks. You know, like there's always a witness who doesn't show up. There's always a, a detective who gets fired for something else. There's always problems that you encounter. And this is, you know, that's why we have appellate courts. Sometimes those problems require that the case be retried. They will retry this guy. And, and another important thing is his testimony from the first trial, which did not go well. It was a, it was a sound beat down. We got caught in a bunch of lies. He was inherently unbelievable. All of that will be admissible in the next trial. So he's, you know, arguably, you know. The only thing I don't like about the ruling from the Supreme Court is that they did take issue with some of the financial stuff that was introduced against him, which I think that that's really important for motive in this case. So I didn't like that part. The juror misconduct part was always as soon as the defense made their allegations about this court clerk, it was always, you and I have talked about this case before, by the way. I don't know if you remember.
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Criminal Prosecutor
Of course I want to know. Do you think there's ever been a situation where someone on the defense team or someone, you know, involved with the defendant would purposely make it so that someone fucks up with jury tampering? Not necessarily going to the jurors, but going to someone like this, this county clerk lady who's been doing this for years, maybe she's over her job. Maybe she's got nothing to lose. Maybe they're like, why don't you be like a little gossip Betty? So then when he gets convicted, we'll have a reason to overturn it. You write a book, what do you care? You're three years away from retirement. What the hell do you care? It's not like she's making a million dollars a year. Has anyone ever done that? It just seems like such a simple, easy mess up. So just by going, ooh, it's so if I was the bailiff or something and I was like, hey, you guys finish up your coffee. We're going to court. By the way, super juicy today. Murdoch's going to go. Then the whole thing's thrown out because someone said that. That seems so lame. But if that's the case, I would kind of. Maybe I'd wonder if someone has that in their back pocket to like get a second trial. Because he's come off a lot better now that he's been in prison for a few years. He might, he might be in a different place where someone might go, wow, I do have some doubt.
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Heather
Yeah, they might. Although he's. This guy is friggin awful. And he's stuck with those words and with a skillful prosecutor that are going to slime. Duncan, I think going back to what
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Criminal Prosecutor
I asked about, do you think that's ever possible?
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Heather
Yes, it certainly is possible and it has certainly happened before. But, but where you see, remember the John Gotti cases and I'm not saying his defense lawyer had anything to do with that, but they, they get to jurors and they get, you know, they can, yeah, there's all kinds of hanky panky that can happen. I think that would happen on this one was just. This is a small county, it was a huge case. You know, I think that this court clerk was a little too into it and I'm sure she will regret it for the rest of her life. She got a little too excited, a little too enthusiastic and she crossed the line. And it's not an excuse, but I don't think it was nefarious like the defense putting her up to it. I think it was just. She wanted to write a book and she was into it and she probably really liked the jurors and she got a little too friendly and that's. It doesn't take much more.
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Criminal Prosecutor
So I'm guessing he has no money. So who pays for this defense? Does it have to be a public defender? Do the whole thing again, do the same people Are, are they obligated to do the whole thing again pro bono? Who does it?
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Heather
No, no. I don't know what the financial situation is. Like, I know that he had, he'd run, he'd squeeze the, that, you know, that, that rock dry, which was part of what he was trying to cover up, you know, because they, he's mismanaged the law firm and ripped everybody off to the point that I don't think the family had much money. But, but then again, I don't know about real property. So he, he could have the option of the public defender, which would be kind of ironic coming in, you know, considering that was the traditional opponent of his grandfather and his father when they were the, the elected DAs of that county. But that might be what comes down to it. And look, when it comes to murder trials, there are a lot of really good public defenders out there. There really are.
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Criminal Prosecutor
Yeah.
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Heather
You know, I mean in the, in the lower ranks, if you get a misdemeanor, you're probably, maybe, maybe you get some rookie PD that, that doesn't know what they're doing yet. But I didn't know what I was doing as a prosecutor either. So they might be evenly matched on a dui. But for the ones that are career, there are, there's some terrible ones who, as you know, there's at least one that I cannot stand. But still a competent lawyer. There's a lot of really good ones. And he might get, he might get a, if he has to go with a PDF, you might get better lawyers than you had in the first trial.
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Criminal Prosecutor
Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll see. Now the next thing I want to talk about is a three part series on Hulu that I just watched last night called the Scream Murders that happened in 2006 in a nice, safe, cute area of Idaho where this beautiful girl named Cassie, she was only 16 years old, was house sitting for her aunt and uncle, kind of dog sitting. And her boyfriend came over and then two other boys came over, Brian and Tori that she was friendly with. They watched a movie, the boys left and then she and the boyfriend were upstairs and the lights went out. Like all the lights in the house went out for a couple minutes and then she was freaked out and the lights turned on and he called his mom and said, can I spend the night with Cassie? And she said no, she can come home to our house. And. And Cassie said, no, I have to be get up to take the dog to pee and stuff. So they picked up their son and then we, the next day she or A couple days later, the aunt and uncle come home and they find out that she is murdered. So I am going to spoil who did it, but you find out pretty early in the three part doc, so I'm not going to. But it's the boys, Brian and Tori. They come back and they're obsessed with murder films. And they were, the whole time they were hiding in the basement, they're the ones that flicked the lights on and off. And once the boyfriend left, they went up and they had these scary masks and they stabbed her like 38 times. And the cops are asking them questions. They said they went to a movie, they didn't know what the movie was about. And finally Brian admits to it and leads them to the evidence, which is buried, which is some of the bloody clothes and things like that, but also a videotape. And the videotape is incredible. It shows them a couple days leading up to this crime, talking about how they're going to do it, how they have a list of different people that they want to kill, all different girls that they were like friends with, that they knew that they might be home between these hours. And then also they were going to possibly do a whole school shoot up. And so the first person was Cassie. And after they killed Cassie, they filming themselves admitting to killing her. And it's fascinating to see the evil of these two boys. But also both the parents of these two boys that were convicted of the murder were willing to be part of this documentary, which I was very impressed with. And to me, I found that to be the most fascinating thing. So with saying all that, you know, I just wanted to get your perspective on these crimes where kids kill, get tried as adults, and what it must be like to be a parent of one of those murderers. This episode of Juicy Crimes is sponsored by Zenni. Even in 2026, replacing glasses feels like a whole production. First you got to go schedule an appointment, pay a fortune, then wait. Well, Zenni Optical fixes all of that. It's so great because Zenni is an online eyewear shop. Prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses starting under $30. You go to zenni.com, pick a frame, upload your prescription, and then they ship it to your door. No appointment, no store, no upsell. At the counter. I use Zenny and you should too. I just got some really cute kind of purpley framed glasses that just match this dress that I was gonna wear. It's like a finished look. When your glasses match something you're wearing and at this price, you can do it. If your Glasses are overdue. For a refresh, now is the time. Go to zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15% off your first order. The styles sell out, so don't sit on this. That's Z e n n I.com podcast promo code podcast15. This episode of Juicy Crimes is brought to you by Daily Look. Between schedules and traveling, I find shopping at an actual place not knowing what to get was not working for my life. Many stores says I've moved, don't exist anymore, or are closing. And that's what I love about Daily Look. You can try on up to 12 premium pieces per box in the comfort of your own home, saving you time and effort. So whether you need something effortlessly chic for a cute spring brunch or polished look for the office or school drop off, Daily look has got you covered. I talked with my stylist. I got jeans that looked great, that fit, and a style that I hadn't really added to my wardrobe yet that are like way more hip and happening. I'm a bit particular about my clothes, so I don't really trust some algorithm to fulfill my fashion needs. Thankfully, my Daily look personal stylist is a real person who actually knows my style. I absolutely love it. And it's time that you get your own personal stylist with Daily Look. Head to DailyLook.com to take your style quiz and use code juicy crimes for 50 off your first order. Once again, that's DailyLook.com for 50 off and make sure you use my promo code Juicy Crimes so they know I sent you one last time dailylook.com promo code juicy crimes.
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Heather
Well yeah and people can YouTube this. They have the raw tapes and when you, when you behind the curtain here when you told me that, that you wanted to talk about this. So I, I'm in New York right now of trying to finish my book and I, I try to take a walk every day just to get a little cardio and I did a deep dive just listening to those tapes this morning and it was the interview tapes and then they would layer in to this, to this thing on YouTube. The, their, the tapes they were making themselves. Not tapes but the recordings they were making on their phones. And it is like those two little friggin psychopaths. Heather, there's like there are, I spent, I did two tours in juvenile okay where we prosecute juvenile crimes and one of the tricks for the experienced juvenile deputies is the first step in trying to figure out what to do with these kids that have gotten in trouble for whatever it may be, vandalism, TPing a friend's house all the way up to murder, is trying to, trying to sort out the mischief from the actual crime, right? Like, and that, and that usually is part of the challenge. Like, is this a good kid who made a mistake or is this just a little. A hole criminal who just hasn't turned 18 yet? That's the name of the game. There's no such problem. When you look at the tapes of these two psychopaths. And it is freaking fascinating to me. And literally my next book is about psychopaths and serial killers, right? And there's, there's, there's a sexual element to almost every one of them. Now the FBI statistics, they did a study and they've determined that studying serial killers, and that's two or more according to their definition, there's a sexual component or sexual assault in 66% of the cases. Which is, you know, kudos to the FBI for, for doing that at all. It's so much higher than that in reality because there's a lot of cases like this one. It's only one victim. They wouldn't be counted as serial killers. But in one of those tapes, they're driving to her house and they're, and they're, they're fantasizing about how awesome this is going to be. And one of them makes. And look this, there was no sexual assault of this girl. But one of them, it's almost a throwaway comment. He says, it's making me horny just thinking about it. So again, sexual component to this, even though they don't sexually assault her, it's a part of the motivation and the way they talk about it. In law school, you learn something. I get a little, little Latin here, okay? You learn about every crime is either malum prohibitum or malam and say. And malum prohibitum is Latin for it's wrong because we say it's wrong. That's like parking at a, at a red, at a red curb or parking at an expired meter. There's a rule that we've made up. It has nothing to do with like, esoteric concepts of justice. It's wrong because we say it's wrong. Then we've got malum and say that is something that is inherently wrong. And these two little idiots on their frigging tape, they start talking about, they're justifying it, like, and they start talking about vampires. Hey, our parents told us that vampires were real, which is stupid, but vampires are real. And this is Murder is just like, you know, vampires. It's like. It's just society saying that it's real, it's not real, and, hey, I don't believe in God. And they start quoting. They were obsessed with. With the Columbine shooters. They're obsessed with serial killers. They're obsessed with horror movies and decided to act out this. This, you know, screen thing. And one of the classic parts about this. And I hope they watch these 20 years later. I hope they watch these freaking tapes and cringe at how unbelievably abhorrent and stupid they were, because one of them is bragging about how all the. All these horror movies that he's watched means he's. He knows how to get away with it as he's literally recording this. And as if the police were idiots in real life. And the police did a really good job here, but they did this for the thrill of it, for fun. And when you first start listening, you start thinking, my God, if only Matt's mom had let him stay, they wouldn't have gotten away with it. Like, nope. They had a plan to kill him too, right?
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Criminal Prosecutor
No, because first I thought of this thing that was the boyfriend of Cassie, whose mother was like, no, she can come to our house. You're not spending the night there with no parents. And, you know, maybe just didn't. Maybe they were having sex. Maybe she didn't want them to have sex. Maybe she just was like that. And then when the young girl's like, no, I'm fine. Lights are on. I need to take care of the dog, she was like, okay. So when I first thought, my God, she must have felt guilty that, you know, she didn't let him stay. Then I was like, no, then he would have been dead, too.
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Heather
He would have been dead, too.
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Criminal Prosecutor
If she couldn't have convinced. She did the right thing. She saved her son. Of course, she's probably like, why didn't I, you know, convince her to have to come to my house? We could have taken the dog with us, whatever. But you know how many times people have been like, can I walk you to your car? I'm fine. You know, every. No one wants to be a bird, especially girls. I'm fine. It's good. What was really interesting about the two boys. So Brian's. Both Brian's parents were on the show. I don't believe they're together anymore. You can understand why. Okay. And they had adopted him, and.
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Heather
And.
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Criminal Prosecutor
But they were there. They. They, you know, went in and let him speak to the detectives. They they believed he had nothing to do with it. They thought, yes, he was there before the murders. People thought it was just a crazed weirdo running through the town that, you know, so they're like, yes, of course. Tell the story of how you saw the movie and blah, blah, blah. And then the other mom that was featured was the mother of the kid, Tori. What was interesting is both parents thought the other child was the bad influence and that they didn't like the other child and they thought, oh, we should break them up, or I don't really like this, or. And there were. There were students on both sides. Some were Team Tori. Brian was the bad influence. Once Tori started hanging out with Brian, he changed. Then there were people that were like, no. Brian was all fun and liked to skateboard and had friends until he got obsessed with Tory. And I always know this from, you know, my sister also being criminal defense attorney is that she's like, you never want to put two sociopaths together. You know, if you know that two people are fucked up, you don't want them talking. You don't want them in the same prison. Why they probably split, the Menendez brothers, you know, originally when they both got convicted together, they could be worse. They already committed a crime together. What could they do together? And you saw it happen with kids, too. Remember the girls with the Mr. Slenderman? Do you remember that story of Slenderman where the two young girls were convinced that this Internet mythical character named Slender man wanted him, these girls to kill somebody, so they invite a third girl to hang out with them and stabbed her and she lived. But that was two friends, you know, and there's been other cases of two girls or a boy and a girl killing a girl because they thought the girl was hitting on the boy. There's something so weird about young murderers that get together and you wonder, had they never met, had they never been in the same school, would they still have grown up to be, you know, murdering psychopaths? What do you think?
- [29:28]
Heather
Watching that, these tapes and your sister's exactly right. It's like, this is like, you know, I mean, the. The example is always, you know, like two lovers running towards each other on slow motion on a beach in a black and white film. Like these guys were. They were, you know, perfect compliments one another, but they were each so gleeful in the lead up, and they're filming her beforehand and saying, hey. You know, like they're. They're engaging her and then literally, like turning the camera and going, she's going to be the first Person we kill. Like they were both so friggin evil. Their word, not mine. They brag about how they're going to be evil and it was both of them. And one of the things about like every time you have a case with co conspirators like this in a murder, it's, it's called the, this defense, right? They always point the fingers at each other. It's absolutely standard. But I almost wonder if those, if the, the friends at school that were on team Team Brian or Team Tory had seen the tapes or if that's a more recent thing or if they'd attended the trial. I don't know. There can be no doubt when you watch those that these guys were each totally into it. They each complimented each other and it was. And I mean look, we, everybody, every goofy teenager goes through a phase, right, where you're, where you're awkward or you're kind of this socially not as advanced as somebody else. Like we, we, we all had that experience growing up in junior high and yet we didn't kill anybody. You know, it's a pretty easy, it's like the number one rule, like don't kill anybody. And they were even laughing about how one of the things they said was, yeah, she's our friend, but hey, sacrifices have to be made, you know, and it's just imagine the horror of that poor girl. And they stabbed her in the neck. They stabbed her a million times, but they finished and he's like, oh my God, I just stabbed Cassie in the neck. You know. And another thing is, it's worth watching the police interviews on this one for, for the, for the audience, like pull it up on YouTube. These guys, you know those, you know those, those clips on Instagram, Heather, where the person comes in and their dog has gotten into the trash and it's like, who did this? And they, and they, and the dog won't open its eyes or it's like that, is, that, is that is these guys in the interview, like they are, they're shrinking. It's every physical tell that you, that, that you would expect from somebody that did something horrible and got caught. And the detectives do a really good job. They're, they're mellow, they're polite. But one of the things that kind of bugged me a little bit about, about the parents is that they're, you know, they, they've, they're still advocating for their sons. Nothing wrong there. But they've gone. It's not. My son was just influenced by the other. My son is innocent because his confession tape shouldn't have come in. And it's like, no, no, no. Technical reversal because of some, some problems in Miranda or the parents weren't allowed because it's juvenile or some technical issue is not the same thing as you having an innocent son. Guys, he signed on. They should watch the tape themselves. And look, I've got. We both do. One of the many reasons I love you, Heather, is we both have, we both have black sheep brothers who are running around out there in the world, right? And mine, you know, mine, it's, it's really sad. But you know, he's, he's been to jail multiple times and he's never hurt anybody. I don't think he ever will. But I gotta tell you, if he did, if he hurt some innocent person or some innocent girl, not that my brother ever would, but if he did, my sympathy would be with the friggin girl, not my brother. And I think that the parents, they love their sons, you know, we got to give them a certain amount of leeway. But this girl was totally innocent. She didn't deserve it. And 20 years later, after they were convicted, sorry, spoiler alert. They went down for this. They've each filed multiple appeals. And I don't know, for me, there's kind of a line there where I'm kind of sick of hearing from family members when all the evidence is out. There's no more presumption of innocence. They proved that each boy did it, they laughed about it, and they planned on killing a whole bunch of additional kids. Fortunately, they encountered very competent detectives who shut it all down. And they've been in prison ever since. But those guys, in my view, should never ever get out.
- [33:46]
Criminal Prosecutor
I mean, it is, of course it's horrible for Cassie's family. I do also really feel for the parents of both. So the, the mother that you see of the kid Tori, who's kind of like a redhead, she, you know, she seems to feel like, should they. You know, I feel terrible that he did it, but you know, he was gay. He was gay and he was, he was so afraid to tell us. And I was like. And then she. So then he comes out when he was in prison and she's like, I mean, at least she kind of had a slight sense of humor. Like of all the things, like, I could care less if you were gay. You fucking killed someone and planned on killing others. But the other guy, Brian, when he admits to what happened, he says that it was Torey who stabbed her. But he was there. Then he's left Alone in the room with cameras on. And he's like, I'm so sorry, Cassie. I would have wanted you to be my girlfriend. So I'm like, okay, so he maybe at one point was attracted to her. The other boy was struggling with being gay or not. Or maybe he didn't know. I feel that like the, in that case. Have you ever dealt with parents that when it comes up and somebody's like, listen, your kid was convicted at 16, they shouldn't be doing life forever. We're going to help you. Our charity is helping appeal get kids out. I would think there's some parents that are like, you know what, I'm okay visiting them twice a year, sending them some money for top ramen. How would it improve some 65 year old woman's life to have her 40 year old son come back into society? He's not going to be able to get a job. What is he going to do? Like, could he move into her house
- [35:37]
Heather
is what he's going to do.
- [35:38]
Criminal Prosecutor
And you have to worry about him.
- [35:40]
Heather
Like, I build a parole plan, I wouldn't want it.
- [35:43]
Criminal Prosecutor
I would be like, you know what, I'm just going to pretend my son is at college forever and I'm just going to visit him there and he can paint and I can send him letters. I really don't think I'd want someone that did murder so brutally. Whether they did it at 16 or 25. I mean, I almost feel like they have to say that because they are the parent. Like, I'm going to love my child forever. I hope that, you know, I want there to be a chance for them to get out. But I was like, God, I wouldn't want them out. I would be like, you know what? I did my job. I obviously somehow didn't do a perfect job. Or you know what, it wasn't my fault. They have free will. They're 16 years old. What am I supposed to never let them have a friend? You know, how much control can you have over a 16 year old? They're at school 8 hours a day with people you're not in front of unless you homeschool them. Never let them have a friend that you didn't approve of. You. You can't blame your. I don't think either parent should be blamed for this. And the parents of Brian, they adopted Brian, which I think is a hard thing. And the other woman biologically gave birth to Tori. And I thought to myself, if I was in either one of these positions, parents, I don't know what's Worse, knowing that you biologically gave birth to a murderer who killed a beautiful, innocent girl, someone else's child, or that you adopted this child and you never. You didn't have to adopt them. Like, do you regret adopting a child that might have been really fucked up in the womb? Like, who's to know? Would this have happened if he had been adopted by somebody else? Or was. Was it the fact that he met this other kid? I don't know what's worse. It's all awful.
- [37:20]
Heather
So in juvenile court, it's really interesting. They're. They. They're alphabetized, the petition. So the first time a kid gets in trouble, it's called an A petition. Second time is a B petition, then a C petition. And the parents are required, at least in California, the parents are required to be in court. So it's a legal obligation. They've got to be there. And I got to tell you, not shockingly, a lot of times when you'd sit there and you're working the, you know, the master calendar, when you look out into the gallery, a lot of times that. That apple clearly does not fall far from the tree. It's like, how is this kid on a. On an M petition? And then you see. And it's always one parent. You'll see the dad or you see the mom. You'll go, oh, now it kind of. It kind of makes sense, right? One of the interesting anomalies is when you get. Get to a kid who's like, on a why petition, who's been arrested literally over 20 times, and. And you look out into the gallery, and when you see two parents who are brokenhearted, who are dressed appropriately for court there together, I cannot tell you, Heather, how many times. And clearly devoted to their. To their child, how many times you look in the file and you see that the child was adopted. Now, my next door neighbor is a doctor. He adopted three kids. They're all rock stars. One of them is like a freaking prodigy in medical school in Ireland right now, and one's a fireman and the other teacher. They're all fantastic kids. So not a hack at all on that at all. And there's special place in heaven, right, for people that would adopt a kid that was born to somebody else. But that whole nature versus nurture, you know, debate that we've had forever, it's interesting.
- [39:02]
Criminal Prosecutor
It's forever, and there's. There is no guarantee you can give birth to a kid who is evil, who suffers from disabilities. You don't know. It's a gamble. You could Adopt a child that, you know, becomes the president of the United States and is a good one. You could, you just don't, you don't know. And there's sometimes I think with parents, they think like I'm adopting this child and they came from, you know, another country that's third world or I'm doing all this great stuff. But they are this child that for some children have no problem with being adopted. Love their mom, didn't have a desire to meet their real mom. It wasn't weird for them, whatever. But then there's some where it's like there's something where they yearn to be with that biological mom and that causes a lot of emotional problems and you could be the greatest. I just think it's just the, it's just such a weird hard thing and it's just interesting and sad that you notice that there is a correlation, a higher percentage, which is really sad.
- [40:07]
Heather
Well, and also it's, it's the type thing. I mean this a perfect example of it. Whether you, whether it's your own kid or whether it's adoption, it's. You can't control. Look, one of the big myths out there is that serial killers, for example, and these guys, these kids were psychopaths, both of them. That serial killers are somehow the product of horrible childhood abuse. Right? Like that's a, that's, that's something that's very common out there. Buffalo Bill, the character from Silence of the Lambs, that, you know that it puts the lotion, the basket guy, you know, that was based loosely on a real guy and it was, he was horribly abused as a child. Okay, but the, it's a myth. I mean it's, it's a myth with exceptions that are real, but it is truly a myth. The vast majority, Heather of the. I, I prosecuted 14 different serial killers, okay? Including the Golden State Killer, Rodney Alcala, the Dating Game Killer. Rodney Alcala was spoiled as a kid. I, I did another one. Andrew Urdialis. He was coddled and spoiled as a kid. Ed Bundy was friggin spoiled as a kid. Jeffrey Dahmer, forget, forget what you watch on Netflix. He had a dad who loved him and he was treated just fine as a kid. Like none of those guys. Some of the most notorious serial killers in history were abused at all as children. And if you get into the literature, there's a book called Psychopathia Sexualis that was written in the 1880s by this guy, Dr. Boncraft Ebbing, which was the first modern effort to try to get A handle on, on paraphilias and serial killers in particular. And he has all of these ancient cases from like the 1800s in France. Nothing to do with modern America, nothing to do with feeling, you know, excluded by society or mean kids at high school where he talks about people and they have these judicial rulings as these, as they're, these guys are getting sentenced to death and it's, they're the same, it's the same dude as we're getting into modern day. And over and over again you'll see he was born of honorable parents. Born of honorable parents. Honorable parents. And one of the great lines in it was he was, he was always vicious from, from, from early childhood. He was vicious and late and shy of work was the end and with no redeeming qualities. And you can see this, you can, you can literally see this judge through, through his writings struggling with what to do with this guy who was viciously going out and killing people for fun in the French countryside in the 1800s. And it's. And again, honorable born of honorable parents without a hint of abuse. So it really is not the fault of the parents here.
- [42:41]
Criminal Prosecutor
It's just also I case of these two guys being obsessed with the Columbine killers and the story we were fed where they were bullied, they had no friends, all this other stuff that's always the case too. You know, when you hear about a shooter and these guys had friends, not only did they have each other, they had friends. They were invited to the house before to watch movies. They weren't like, get away you creepy dude. They show them filming her at her locker and she's like, okay. Like she, no one was mean. It was like they just wanted to do this and. Okay, so let's move on to our next thing. David, the singer. So I've covered this a lot. My audience should be up on all of it so we don't have to recap it. He's arrested. So there's this other guy named Neo who is in a lot of videos with him. And there's a video of them shortly after the murder where there's a scene, young girl there too. And they're filming and he's like, sorry that my bathroom smells so weird. You know, like basically joking. They took a big dump. And then you see the Neo guy look at the, at the camera like, okay, so there are some online speculation. Why did David purchase two chainsaws to dismember the poor body of 14 year old Celeste? And two of the body parts, the fingers that had her. His tattooed name on her finger have never been found. And there's a video of him talking about or wrapping some weird finger like that. I just saw like pull. It's, you know, telling on himself, whatever. Do you think, how would you explain the two chainsaws? Do you think they're going to come up with a second person in their case?
- [44:33]
Heather
Well, California is very interesting. Okay. Number one, he's, he's. Neo is never going to be charged. And, and I guess, let me just kind of talk about how unusual this was, the way the lad's office handled this, which I cannot be complimentary enough for this. This is Nathan Hockman. He's the real deal. Thank God Gascon is out and we have a, we have an actual Prosecutor running the DA's office now. But what they did is there's two functions for a grand jury. One is you can go to a grand jury and ask indictment. But the other, and this is really advanced prosecutorial work here. The other thing you can do with the grand jury is you can, you can convene and get an investigative grand jury and then force reluctant witnesses to come in and testify. So if the police go and knock on Neo's door, which I think they did, and he told him to pound sand, you don't have to cooperate with the police. What you do have to do is you do have to answer to a grand jury subpoena. And they brought this guy Neo in and first of all, he, he, he d. He was ordered to appear and he didn't. He wound up getting arrested, came in. So he's very reluctant. Then what happens? You can force what's called use immunity on a witness like that, where the presiding judge comes down and says, dominus ominous. I'm granting their use immunity. You no longer have a fifth Amendment right against, against incrimination. So you have to answer all the prosecutors questions now. And if you don't, I'm going to hold you in criminal contempt. And so they do, they talk. That's the process that Beth Silverman, the DA went through to get this. That is, that is, for lack of a better term, Heather, that is awkward. So they forced that guy to talk. I'm sure he's got an immunity agreement and he is going to explain all kinds of stuff. Now that, that's secret information at this point because it's a grand jury, but at the preliminary hearing, I expect a lot of that is going to come out. So Neo probably knows all kinds of stuff. And I know the speculation, the speculation is he got two chainsaws, one for him and one. One for his buddy. Maybe he did. If. If so, I think Neo. Neo will have already testified to the grand jury on that and he's locked into that. Whatever it is. They, I think they made the deal with him. But it also could be that he just wants two chainsaws in case one of them doesn't work. Right. Or one of them is going to be quieter than the other. I don't know. But I can tell you this. I've been to murder scenes where people have been cut up, and the idea that he thought that it was going to be limited to a kiddie pool is, Is laughable. Especially with the chainsaw, because just with a, with a. This is a little graphic here, but with a, with just a saw or a, an ax, I've seen both. There is viscera and human tissue that goes everywhere. I guarantee his, his garage is, was filled with her DNA. And this is a truly horrific case. And you know, another interesting thing, Heather, on this one is he started getting kind of a cheering section, right? Like David had fans and people were like, oh, could he have really done it? We started going down that road until Nathan Hockman came out and said, hey guys, he's got kitty porn on his phone and you could almost hear people running for the exits, right? Because that changes the complexion of everything. She was 12 and then 13 when they apparently had this sexual relationship. And of course the whole theory is that she found out he was dating other women. Not women. She was a freaking girl. She was 14 at the time of her death and she was mad about that and threatened to expose him. So he lured her over with the Uber, ambushed her, stabbed her to death, left the tube top on her, by the way, which is some forensic evidence because there's going to be knife holes in the tube top, you know, and then goes through all this stuff, drives to Santa Barbara. I think at Last twice her ID is found up there and for whatever reason is too stupid to get rid of the body. So he is no master criminal. He's going down. That guy's never going to see the light of day again.
- [48:18]
Criminal Prosecutor
When I was discussing this in the last Juicy Crimes, I was like, you know, there was a case I covered where a woman was accused of killing and dismembering the body of her husband and got convicted for it. And that kind of made sense. How the hell would I get a 200 pound body out of the bedroom or whatever? Okay? I would never dismember a body I'd never kill somebody. But in his case, she's a little girl. Why do you think he felt dismembering the body would be a better way to dispose of it? It makes me think that that was part of the plan and that he got off on it because he's certainly a big enough guy to have carried her and put her in a trunk and drove it to a. A dump site or thrown it in the sea or whatever. Why do you think.
- [49:08]
Heather
Remember, this is a guy whose breakout song was romantic, called Romantic Homicide. And he shot a video and he cast a young woman who looked just like Celeste Rivas, who's an. It was an actor, an interview with who was great. She said she hated him on the set, by the way, so he's freaking twisted. And there's a great line in the, in the movie Band of Brothers that has nothing to do with murder. But they're trying to figure out why would the Germans do this, whatever it was they were doing in the scene. And one of the other guys looked at the other one, he goes, because they ain't as smart as me and you. And that's the answer to a lot of stuff that murderers do that, that make no sense. They're. If they were. If they were smart or they weren't half crazy to begin with, they wouldn't be murderers in the first place. But this was so ma. The way he did this and then didn't get rid of the body and then just went on tour and thought it like, what, she's just going to go away in the trunk of his car that he parked on a public street. And I think, you know, I think it was him, you know, that drove the car around the corner. Maybe it was the hangers on, maybe somebody helped him. But anybody that, with the, with the investigation that the LAPD and the lad's office did in this, I, I am impressed. 17 years in homicide and I am impressed with this and that. That's what you want. You want to take your time and really meticulously put together every single piece of evidence you can, including forcing reluctant witnesses like this Neo guy to sit in the witness stand on the record and make a, make a statement. And then he got, you know, that forced him to get counsel. And any lawyer worth their salt is going to, is going to have the come to Jesus conversation with their client where they say, dude, you are going to tell the truth to the cops and we're going to get you on what's called the witness bus. So you're not sitting next to him during this. During the trial for this murder.
- [50:56]
Criminal Prosecutor
Right. And yeah, that makes a lot of sense. How do you feel about God to cover another crime? The horrible story of the young girl whose stepbrother murdered her on the cruise ship and now her dad and stepmom, mother of the murderer, are like, we're not going to the trial. Can see why you wouldn't want to go. Like your daughter's been murdered. It was, you know, I can't even imagine you, you, you married this woman whose child then killed your child. What do you. Any thoughts? I don't even know what.
- [51:40]
Heather
Yeah, I mean, I. Yeah, I'm not sure they're still together. Are they. Are they still. Are they still a couple?
- [51:45]
Criminal Prosecutor
I felt like they were, but you know what? I don't know for sure.
- [51:48]
Heather
They won't, they won't be for long. I mean, this is the kind of stress that, that, you know, understandably, hey, you'd killed my kid. Seemed like that'd be a point of marital tension. But. Yeah, they're gonna. They were on the cruise, right? Weren't they?
- [52:00]
Criminal Prosecutor
Yeah, they were all on the cruise.
- [52:01]
Heather
So they're all gonna be, they're gonna be witnesses anyway, so they're going to be attending that trial whether they want to or not. He won't be sitting in the gallery, but, you know, maybe he'll.
- [52:11]
Criminal Prosecutor
Or maybe they'll get him to do like a plea or something. But again, he's under 18.
- [52:16]
Heather
Yeah, but they're trying as an adult, right? Are they?
- [52:18]
Criminal Prosecutor
Not that. I don't know. I. How. How is it, how do you do that? You know, is it 16, is it 14? Is it just based on the crime? I mean, it's different for every. Has a 10 year old been charged as an adult, where they're just like, we want to throw away the key forever and never deal with this kid again?
- [52:37]
Heather
No, no, I think it's like. And the law has changed. They used to do it. We used to have a law in California called direct file where we used to be able to. On the really serious cases for anybody 16 or older, you could just charge them directly in adult court. Now you can still do that. You can't charge them directly in adult court. You can still do what's called a 707 petition, where you have a big hearing where you try to get. You try to have a judge make a finding that they're more suitable being tried as an adult, which for really serious crimes, it's a pain in the ass to do those Especially as a defense lawyer. But when you get it to. You go through that process, most of the time, the judges will allow them to be tried as an adult. And then, of course, life without possibility of parole is, at least in California, it's no longer permitted. So this was out of Florida, the Cruz. And so I think the feds would have jurisdiction, and I also think the state of Florida would have jurisdiction. So I think that they, they can and almost certainly will try him as an adult. And I don't know. I don't know what the laws are in Florida on that, although it's the type of thing that at age 16, he'll probably get a parole hearing somewhere down the line. But again, just an evil little, little freaking bastard who did this. You know, again, big difference between a good kid who's made a mistake and something like this. He's a little sexual psychopath too. Almost certain. You know.
- [54:03]
Criminal Prosecutor
And how do you, how do you feel about making the parents responsible? Whether in the case of a shooter where the parents were found responsible because they bought him the gun and they knew he was dangerous. And now with this e. Bike thing that happened with this young boy who was riding a bike that should have been for 16 and over. He was only 14. I guess. Now I've heard that they were warned and the mother was warned about him riding this bike and he runs into an old man, leaves the scene and then the old man dies. And now she's being arraigned.
- [54:37]
Heather
Yeah. So this is a, this is a really interesting area of the law. And it is, It's. They're very fact specific. So the case that you just were talking about is Ethan Crumbley, who's. He shot up his school. I think he killed two kids. But what happened in that one is he was touched. This kid was, was. Had some serious violence slash mental illness issues going on to. To make him feel better. His frigging a hole parents, sorry. Bought him a firearm. And he was going to the range and then he had brought it to school and, and he was writing all these. He was doing all these doodles in his math class doing essentially a school shooting. And, and the, the teachers were like, this doesn't look right. So they brought the parents in who refused to take them home. They, the teachers had no idea that they'd bought him a firearm. They knew he had a firearm. I don't know if they knew that he was at. That they had it with him at school that day, but the parents refused to take him home. They left and then he did a school shooting. So that's a fact. That, that's one where I looked at those parents. I had zero sympathy for them. And if I was the prosecutor on that, I would have friggin nailed them to the wall just like, just like they were, because they were so. And this is not a second amendment issue at all. This is bad. Those are bad parents and they, they disregard the safety of other, every other kid in that school. And people died as a result. And they should have been prosecuted. Some of these E bike things, it's a little tougher right now. The Orange County Todd Spitzer, we've got our own history, but he's, he's gotten very aggressive with some of these E bike cases and E bikes. You know, I live in Manhattan Beach. Some of these kids are out of control on their E bikes. I've represented a couple of cases where the kids were on e bikes where, you know, things went south and it, in, in the case of one of my cases, my client, this little kid, it really wasn't his fault. But those kids are, I mean, they're a menace in my neighborhood. And I think everybody has about had it with them. So Spitzer has taken a very aggressive line with the parents. Some of those bikes have been designated now as electric motorcycles. So the kids aren't supposed to be riding them. But it's tough, right, because you got a kid. I, you know, I had a, I was involved in a case where I think that that was a 16 year old. He had a bike he was supposed to be riding. And when the dad learned that they changed the designation and made this other electric bike illegal, you know, he just didn't get rid of it. So he bought a legal bike for his kid, but the kid snuck out on the good one and went out and caused an accident. And again, they were looking hard at the dad on that and I don't know, it's like we were 16, I was at Loyola, you were at Louisville. And I got into all kinds of stuff and my dad had no idea that I was, what I was up to at the time. So it's a tough thing. That case was horrible. That old man, elderly gentleman died in that and it's a, it's a tough thing. Should the kid be held accountable percent, you know, in juvenile court, maybe most appropriately for, for a 14 year old, 100%. I think that kid should be held to, held to account. I don't know all the details of how many times the mom was warned.
- [57:58]
Criminal Prosecutor
Right.
- [57:58]
Heather
So I don't want to go too far out on that limb. Despite my history with Todd's Spitzer, I don't want to criticize too harshly on that either because some parents, let's face it, are freaking terrible and don't give a shit about the safety of anybody else and, and wouldn't have a problem with their kid riding an illegal, you know, an illegal electric bike that goes like 40 miles an hour. So I don't know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a real cutting edge area and I think those heat bikes, parents need to, need to get a hold of the, you know, some of those bikes and start freaking figuring out how to turn them off because they're, I mean they're like a chopper gang on any given day.
- [58:37]
Criminal Prosecutor
Yeah.
- [58:38]
Heather
14 year olds running around and they're. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I don't know. It's interesting and I don't, I don't, I don't know where, I don't know where my head lands on, on this. I think it's case by case.
- [58:48]
Criminal Prosecutor
Yeah, I think like anything, you know, there used to be hoverboards, then there was, you know, the scooters which aren't around anymore, the lime scooters everyone was on. They realized how dangerous those were then, you know. But we went from like pedaling with a little electric assistance to now like a full on motorcycle where they're not even pedaling at all.
- [59:09]
Heather
And these kids have no driver's ed. They have no idea what the rules are, nor do they care.
- [59:14]
Criminal Prosecutor
Right. At least it's. If you had it where you couldn't drive it until you were 16, you're right. You have to go through driver's ed. You have to, to abide by stop signs and to the right is the right of way and all those things that you learn to get your permit and then you're. So I think that's where it's gonna be affected. I think it's. You're gonna have to be 16 and you're gonna have to have a license.
- [59:37]
Heather
Yeah, I think so. We have not heard the, we have just scratched the surface of this. This is a phenomenon in, in Southern California anyway. We've, we have not even.
- [59:47]
Criminal Prosecutor
Yeah, and it's such a privilege thing
- [59:49]
Heather
too, which is expensive.
- [59:51]
Criminal Prosecutor
They're so expensive. That's why it does fall on the parents because how else is a kid supposed to get $2,500? No, every kid got it because every, the parents can afford it and they don't want their kid to Be the only one without it. But then you think about the other kids that can't have one. They're probably like, thank God. Thank God we weren't wealthy enough to give you one. But if they are wealthy enough and they don't give their kid one now, their kid's not included in all the fun shit.
- [60:19]
Heather
Yeah.
- [60:19]
Criminal Prosecutor
And they're, you know, so then they're pissed. It's just such a. It's. I'm glad my kids are older. I'm glad I don't have to deal with this. I think it is a hard thing.
- [60:27]
Heather
But then again, I think a good parent, you know, most of the time, not always, of course, but, you know, if they most good. Good people are going to teach your kids to be respectful and not be little a holes on those things. And man beats that are out of control.
- [60:41]
Criminal Prosecutor
Thank you so much for coming on my show. And also you have a new show in which I'm gonna be a guest on and tell everybody where they can listen to your podcast.
- [60:50]
Heather
Great. Yeah. It's called in the well with my buddy Mark Gargos. Mark and I approach things differently, one from the prosecution, one from the defense. But Mark and I have been friends for many, many years. And basically it's. It's the conversations that Mark and I would be having over lunch. Anyway, so everybody gets to eavesdrop on that. We're talking about case of the day and listening to old war stories. And I have a lot of fun doing it because I'll run stuff by Mark and just get his take. And Mark's. Mark's a good dude. He's represented a bunch of people that I think a lot of people, a lot of your listeners and the people who watch your show hate, like the Menendez brothers, and I'm right there with them. Mark himself is a good guy. As they say, hate the game, not the player. And I love Mark, so we have a lot of fun. It comes out every Friday. It's on the NK True Crime channel, and we also post on YouTube so hopefully people can check it out. So you are a guest tomorrow? Yes, I want to. I've saved it for today. I want to talk. We're going to talk about Blake Ladley. I can't wait to get your take on that. Perfect.
- [61:55]
Criminal Prosecutor
Okay, thanks. Bye.
- [61:56]
Heather
All right. And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show. Go.
- [62:34]
Criminal Prosecutor
Hey, everyone. Check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date?
- [62:37]
Heather
Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance. With Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [62:44]
Criminal Prosecutor
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [62:46]
Heather
Anyways, get a quote at libertymutual. Com or with your local agent.
- [62:49]
Criminal Prosecutor
Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty.