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- [00:00]
A
Everyone is talking about GLP1s. How do you get it? Will my insurance cover it? And that's where RO is. So great. I was using the small little pill that I took daily. For me it worked so easy. I didn't have to deal with needles and all it did was just make me get full faster. I loved that. Go to Ro Co Juicycrimes to see if you qualify. That's RO Co Juicycrimes to get started on ro. Go to Ro Co Safety for box warning and full safety information about GLP1 medications. I love what I've gotten from Fabletics. I got the cutest yellow set and I feel so chic and happy wearing it. The quality honestly surprised me. It's soft, it's breathable, it's really built to last. Shop now@fabletics.com juicycrimes to get 70 to 80% off everything when you sign up as a new VIP, take a quick style quiz and be sure to select Juicy Crimes when prompted to unlock this offer. Then this is a limited time offer so don't wait. Again, that's fabletics.com juicycrimes for 70 to 80% off everything as a new VIP. Did you know Lululemon's iconic Flow Y bra also comes in tank top styles and even a dress. Now in new fun summer colors, Flow Y brings a racerback shape to streamline styles you can wear anywhere. Our buttery soft nulou fabric feels nearly weightless with sweat wicking four way stretch for comfort. You'll want to keep on after practice. Flow freely on and off the mat with light support and refined design. Shop Flow y now@lululemon.com. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I have everyone's favorite sister, aka Yellow Flower. My sister, Shannon McDonald Goldstein, attorney at law. Welcome back to Juicy Crimes, Shannon.
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B
I love it. AKA Yellowflower. I'm back. How are you, Heather?
- [02:12]
A
I am good. We have a lot of juicy crimes to get into. We're going to start out with a. Well, they're all sad. Obviously this is but the interesting things about it is what we get to in the show and this is a fourth of July crime. Hopefully it's not a crime. We don't know but why don't you walk us through what happened in 4th of July on Horn island with these teenagers and the sad death of a young man that a very promising life football player. I believe they were all seniors and his name is Nolan.
- [02:51]
B
Yeah. So we have this is the case of Nolan Wells and this is actually super, super sad. And I really hope we get to the bottom of it. So Nolan is 18. He' African American, man. He is actually a freshman. He's 18, but he's actually going to community college. He's going to the. I want to say it's Southwest Mississippi Community College. And he is a wide receiver, so it's pretty cool. You know, he's doing. He's playing sports, which a lot of kids like to do in college. And he has a bunch of friends, probably high school friends. And it's Fourth of July weekend. It's from Mississippi. And so there's an island called Horn island, which is kind of almost like a little barrier reef island kind of off the Gulfport area of Mississippi. And they have a private boat and they go out to this island like a lot of kids would and do. And really, what essentially happens is no one really hears from him after 3pm It's a little. Obviously, they're not releasing a lot of information, but it's a little unclear, but it appears that somewhere along their mind, there might have been an argument about a phone or he might have left his phone. But anyway, the boys go back to, I guess, for lack of a better word, the mainland of the Mississippi, and they kind of assume that, oh, Nolan's gonna hang out, maybe he was talking to a girl. And then, unfortunately, nobody really hears from him. They're like, well, where is he? Why is he not coming back? So his mom calls the authorities after maybe speaking to the friends and says, hey, where's Nolan? And she reports him missing, and he just doesn't come home that night. And so now it's the 5th, July 5th, and they continue to look and look and look. And now they're getting all kinds of authorities involved, including, I think, you know, I want to say, maybe even the. I don't know if it's the Coast Guard, but just various different authorities, sheriff's department, et cetera. And then on the 6th, after all this finding out, they do find a body, and they find it on the northwest side of Horn Island. I believe it. I believe the evidence is. Is that it was sort of washed ashore. So you would. But it's been. There's not a lot of evidence that's been confirmed, but I believe the body was washed ashore. And then through dental records, unfortunately, they do confirm that, in fact, it is Nolan. Why this is getting interesting is that some of the friends and the boys that were there, like, right after it happened, you know, maybe they said, oh, something's happening. But they. There isn't a lot of talk about help me with my friend on social media. In fact, it's more of a deletion of a lot of social media. So just it leads one to believe, was there fighting? Was there. Was there something going on that they're trying to hide? Then the family gets this very famous attorney by the name of Ben Crump involved. You know, Ben Crump is an attorney, but he's also been involved in a lot of cases that might involve. Involved some civil rights issues. So now, unfortunately, we're coming. You know, we're talking about potentially there being race factors. And why would there be race factors? Well, Nolan is an African American man, and I believe all three or four of the friends that he went on the boat with are white. So we're kind of waiting. We don't have a confirmed autopsy report, obviously. That's gonna say a lot. I mean, that's the first thing I would think of is, well, what's the cause of death?
- [06:01]
A
I think last I heard that that attorney who's helping the family is taking the body to another autopsy place in D.C. like an expert to see what, in fact could have happened. I guess they would. You know, there's a couple of different things. So first, all the friends, which he's in, all these fun photos from the day, right? And he really is the only black guy in the group. And the Internet started to go crazy. You know, I'm on it more than you. I like an Internet sleuth. I like these tiktokers. And one of the first things I saw when he went missing was from a black TikTok creator. And she's like, this is why it's not great to be the only black guy in the white group. And it just was like, wow. And it reminded me of this other case, which I didn't have an opportunity to. To look it up. But you may recall it. It was very strange. It. There was a bunch of, like, young women or moms, and they were all white, and they had one black girlfriend. And there was a sleepover, like an adult girl sleepover, which we do all the time with our girlfriends. You know, we have girls come and stay, spend the night. We drink, and we all spend the night, like, adult sleepover.
- [07:28]
B
And she.
- [07:29]
A
She, like, died. Yeah. And I feel like they never. It was under same strange circumstances. You know, I don't think anyone was ever arrested in that. I don't know whatever happened with that. But it was one of those stories that I saw bubbling up as this was talked, being talked about. I totally agree with you how fucking weird it was and wrong that all the boys, before the body was found, not just got rid of their social media, but, like, deleted it. Right. And, and even some of their parents, you know, one of the boys, stepmother is a judge.
- [08:08]
B
Right.
- [08:08]
A
And she has spoken, which is very weird, you said. And yeah, she, she also deleted her Facebook or, or shut it down or something because she's like, we don't want to be inundated with negative things and all this. You know, it is suspicious. But then at the same time, they may have, because they do come. Just playing devil's advocate, it's your kid. You know, they're drinking. They're not 21, it's 4th of July, and immediately there's a search going on for their one black friend that was out with them. Somebody has a, you know, they, they're prominent kids, so they're prominent parents. They have. One guy's dad is an FBI agent, another one as a lawyer, another one, something like that.
- [08:58]
B
Right.
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A
And so collectively, they may have just said, hey, shut it down. So that sleuths and people are not looking at everything that you've posted and, and, and putting something together that isn't true.
- [09:12]
B
And actually, I totally agree with that.
- [09:14]
A
Like, I totally agree with it, too.
- [09:16]
B
Yeah. Because here's, you know, if you look at it that way, it's like, well, immediately they're going to start looking and they're going to, they're going to be finding any little small posts that might have been done six months ago that might lead to the fact that they didn't like this kid or that they, you know, maybe are got in trouble or they sometimes leave, you know, questionable posts, you know, that. And they're going to make it like it's just going to become sort of a domino effect, like, or just a big snowball effect. And then all of a sudden, now you're like, almost. It's like whack a mole. Now you're just trying to, like, shut whatever is coming down and you're defending things that you never thought you'd have to. You don't have any proof to defend it. And it becomes bigger than it was supposed to be. And I would think that the mother, that's the judge has obviously seen that in her practice, and that's probably why she did it. And now that I think about it, it's probably why she has taken this proactive approach to actually say this is what happened. They, you know, he, you know, they brought the phone back because they left him. And then they realized that he left his phone and they brought the phone back because they knew that when he did come back, he'd want his phone. So the phone, you know, trying to make it more simple.
- [10:28]
A
The phone is very interesting. Allegedly. Once the family got the phone back, either they or someone on their team helping them realize that there were deleted messages. Now, I don't. I don't know. You could ask your kids, but I don't. My kids, their friends don't know their passcode. So even if you had your friend's phone.
- [10:53]
B
Yeah.
- [10:53]
A
And you're like, okay, now he's missing because we killed him or whatever. And so let me go on his phone and remove the fact that I said, I hate you, motherfucker, for talking to my ex girlfriend. How would they be able to do that? Well, I'm saying, yeah, they wouldn't have his pass code unless his passcode is, I guess. Unless his passcodes his face. And then if he was incapacitated or whatever, they could go up to his face and do it. I think this is what happened. And then we can go over other scenarios. There is this young girl who is cooperating with the police. And they were talking. We don't know. It doesn't sound like they were boyfriend and girlfriend. But maybe there was an interest there, but maybe there wasn't. It's fourth of July with a bunch of kids drinking high Noons. And it's, you know, 2:30 and she says that they were talking and at 3:00, it was her understanding that he was walking towards the boat, the original boat that he and his friends came on. And she assumed he was going on
- [12:00]
B
that boat back with his friends.
- [12:02]
A
Yeah. And they are saying, we thought he was talking to the girl. And from what I've seen, I saw another, you know, guy that a man talking about it. This is the kind of thing you can get on someone else's boat. It's like a short ride. So if you stayed on the island and your friends left, it's not like you've literally been abandoned on Gilligan's Island. It's like there's all these other people there. You could be, let me get on the boat. But everyone has to be off Horn island by like around 4:30. They start like shooing people away. They cannot stay there for the night. They have to go back. Yeah.
- [12:43]
B
I have a question. Is there some sort of like public ferry or something that could take you back?
- [12:47]
A
No.
- [12:47]
B
Because if everybody has to get off the island, how would they get off if they Couldn't, for some reason. How would they monitor it if they didn't have a public ferry? Like, you're gonna pick a curfew because they're saying, oh, the island has to be. Yeah, that's what's happening.
- [12:59]
A
Yeah, I don't think there is. I think it's just, like, a little thing that people do, you know, on hot summer days or whatever.
- [13:08]
B
Right.
- [13:09]
A
So it could be. Now, this is. This is. Let's say this is one scenario. He's talking to the girl, whatever. And he didn't have his phone. Now, someone would also argue, no teenagers without your phone. Well, you're swimming, you have shorts on. You're holding one hand with high noon, talking to a girl. It's not crazy to think that you left your phone on purpose on the boat with your friends. Okay, so now you're talking to the girl, whatever. They're buzzed, and they're. Quite honestly, they're not thinking about you. There's a bunch of other kids. They know it's not the end of the world, that they didn't have every single person that came on their boat get off the boat. Because it's like, you can see it. Like, it's not a big deal. Okay? So they leave, think, good, go get. Go get your girl, dude. Like, who cares? They might have never realized that he didn't have his phone. I'm just totally playing, like, defense attorney for these kids. And then they get back, and they're just kind of like, oh, where's Nolan? Whatever. And then they're like, no, really? Nolan didn't come back. Oh. Oh, shit. And we have his phone. They somehow they. Someone gives the phone to the mother who's. And then they're like, what's going on? Now the kid's parents are probably, like, involved, and that's when too much time passes. They're like, listen, this kid probably. I mean, some parent was probably. Like, this kid probably drowned. He probably was left there and either thought he could swim all the way back or somehow was swimming by himself and thought, I can hop on this boat, or something happened, and he miscalculated his ability. I don't know if he can swim at all. Like, we don't even know. Maybe he was a kid that really never was properly taught how to swim and couldn't really swim at all. And I saw this other video from kids in the south that said, this reminds me of this Nolan thing. And this is not Nolan, but it was a bunch of white kids, same age, their one black friend, a guy and he's on the land and they're on the boat and they're fucking mocking him. It's horrible. They're like, get in. Swim out here, dude. Because they're not far. And he's like, no, no. And then. Yeah. And he's like, and I don't even have my phone. And they're like, ha, ha. We have your phone. You're gonna have to come get it. I mean, it's. It's awful. But do I, you know, would I think that these dumb privileged kids would, you know, I think that they were bad friends. I think they were dumb. I don't think they were thinking. I don't think they were thinking about water safety. I don't think they were thinking about his ability. I don't think they cared. Maybe they were a little jealous that he was talking to a cute girl and these guys weren'. But. And then when they realized we were fucking bad friends, we don't want the like, you know, now we're in a serious position because now our friend is dead. This episode of Juicy Crimes is sponsored by Roe. Everyone is talking about GLP1s and it truly is working for so many people. And now it's not a secret. But the secret might be how do you get it? Will my insurance cover it? And that's where Ro is. So great. The insurance checker is Ro's free tool to help patients check with GLP1 medications are covered by their insurance. A few days after submitting their insurance information, a patient will receive a report that tells them which medications are covered and whether or not a prior authorization will be required. And if someone has no insurance coverage or no insurance to check, RO is still more affordable at the lowest cost. FDA approved options around. So great. I was using the small little pill that I took daily. For me it worked so easy. I didn't have to deal with needles, which would kind of stressed me out. And all it did was just make me get full faster. I loved that. Go to ROE Co Juicycrimes to see if you qualify. That's RO Co juicycrimes. To get started on ro, go to RO co Safety for box warning and full safety information about GLP1 medications. This episode of Juicy Crimes is sponsored by Fabletics. I love getting up and doing a morning walk, maybe going to the gym. Well, I love what I've gotten from Fabletics. I got the cutest yellow set and I feel so chic and happy wearing it. I got two tennis dresses that have the built in bras they look great. They're slimming the quality. Honestly surprised me. Fabletics pieces feel like that premium activewear you'd expect from higher end brands but without the price tag. It's soft, it's breathable, it's really built to last. What I am loving most is how easy the pieces are to wear throughout the day. So I can throw on the matching set for the workout. I can also keep it around running for errands, travel, and it all looks so chic and great. Shop now@fabletics.com juicycrimes to get 70 to 80% off everything when you sign up as a new VIP. Take a quick style quiz and be sure to select Juicy Crimes when prompted to unlock this offer. This is a limited time offer, so don't wait. Again, that's one fabletics.com juicy crimes for 70 to 80% off everything as a new VIP. Ever wonder where Tropicana got its name? The Tropics. And every time you enjoy a glass, you're not just drinking juice, you're taking
- [19:15]
B
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- [19:18]
A
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- [19:25]
B
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A
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- [19:32]
B
And so I have a question. Yeah. Because I think this is important when we talk about deleting all of the social media. When. Because you gave a scenario which is an interesting scenario. So let's say that's the scenario we're mocking, you know, and then hahahaha. And we see him flailing around in the water. But we're not worried about it because he's going to go back to Horn island or he's going to catch a ride or we don't think about it. He's just floating, you know, trying to get the phone back. Hahaha. Okay. And they have the phone. So if it is it, you know, is it just. Is it like oh my God, a day went by and now we're going to delete the social media because people are going to kind of come in or is it like on the way back at 3:30 we're deleting our face, our, our social media because then I think it changes the scenario of potentially whether this was accidental or when did
- [20:21]
A
the teenage boys delete their social media? When Nolan went missing, the teenage boys deactivated or deleted their social media accounts after returning from Horn island, specifically when they and their families began facing intense online blame and harassment regarding him.
- [20:40]
B
So
- [20:42]
A
it was before the body was found, right?
- [20:45]
B
Well, no, I knew that. But what I'm almost saying is, let's say the last time they saw him was like 3pm if they deleted it at like 3:30, almost before he even got to Horn Island.
- [20:56]
A
According to this, it was specifically when they.
- [20:58]
B
I mean, he got to the mainland.
- [20:59]
A
Yeah. It said specifically when they and their families began facing intense online blame, probably Fourth of July night or the next day, which could make sense. They could have been probably not all online Fourth of July. I remember seeing the, you know, the article originally, like, this kid is missing on the fifth, and then I think his body was found the sixth.
- [21:24]
B
Let me ask, isn't there some sort of video out? Although I think it's pretty unclear where. It kind of shows a bunch of boats around, and it kind of shows, like, what. What might have. Might be Nolan kind of yelling, saying to the guys, like, give me my phone. Give me my phone. But he's like, stand outside the boat. He's not swimming. It's not like he's flailing in the water.
- [21:42]
A
Right.
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B
And there's a ton of other boats around. I don't know if that's been confirmed. I don't think it has been. But it's enough to kind of raise an eyebrow.
- [21:50]
A
I kind of agree with that. I don't know what that video is. And you know what? With what they can do right now, I don't know if somebody put that together and made an audio of someone saying, give me my phone. Because I don't think it was very clear at all. It could have been anybody saying, give me my phone. How many people say give me my phone every freaking day to somebody? So it's like, I agree.
- [22:11]
B
And I also don't think it was very clear that he was saying, give me my phone. You know, I mean, I think we're hearing somebody yelling, and then we're thinking, ooh, that could have been give me my phone. And if it's give me my phone. Ooh, that could have been Nolan. I mean, now we're just sort of stretching.
- [22:27]
A
I mean, the other thing, if we're thinking that these boys were just dumb and honestly not good friends and not mature friends.
- [22:35]
B
Right.
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A
And they're also mourning the death of, like, one of their best buddies or
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B
missing, you know, because if they.
- [22:44]
A
Well, no, he's not missing.
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B
No, but if they were.
- [22:46]
A
But I'm saying right now, like, right now, like, the criticism for them of they're not doing enough or whatever they are. They got attorneys. You don't have to speak to police. Without an attorney. They're not stupid. They do have. Wait, hold on. They do have, you know, the. They should. And with online and everything. This is what I'd be thinking if my kid was one of these kids in this situation. You know, there could be a kid of the four that really was fricking clueless. It wasn't his boat. He thought Nolan was talking to a girl. He thought he'd see him back at 4:30. He didn't think anything of it. He didn't take his phone. He was just there. Let's say that's my kid. And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna. We're gonna get an attorney. We're going to delete your social media. I'm gonna delete media because I don't want us being docs.
- [23:40]
B
Right?
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A
And because it's a ra. Because there's a racial element to it, it makes it a lot worse. And, you know, where people can put together an awful scenario and. And I would be wanting to protect my child's reputation. Like right now. It's horrible. We're mourning this kid's death. This was your friend. This is awful. But let's also think about, you know, what. What this kid's life is going to be like if we don't do all this right now. This could haunt our kids forever. When it could have been a really innocent mistake, miscommunication, nothing nefarious happened. Nolan shouldn't have tried to swim, but maybe he thought he could. I just was on a vacation in the Bahamas and there were two incidences where I, as a strong swimmer, as someone who swam my whole life, got into the ocean that looked totally calm and clear. And then I was like, holy shit, this is further than I thought. I shouldn't have done this. I started to kind of panic. I started to get tired, and it was, you know, so that. That can happen to anybody.
- [24:48]
B
And.
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A
And then. Go on. The fact that you're trying to look cool, you're. You're the one black guy in the group. You like this girl. You're telling yourself it's not that far or whatever now, I guess. And I don't know that much about autopsies, but I guess, you know, let's say they find out, yes, there was water in the lungs. It's consistent with drowning. Then I guess they would have to really look was. Is there something around his neck? Was somebody holding him down? You know, I guess they want to check to see did someone, you know, knock him on the head and then he drowned? Of course, you know, we're going to look for all that, a strangulation, whatever.
- [25:29]
B
But you're looking, you're looking for abrasions, you're looking for was there a fight, was there something other than a straight blown drowning? I don't think there's any doubt that he. Probably the ultimate cause of death was drowning. I think that is kind of almost understood. But maybe not, you know, maybe not. But if there is some sort of like, you know, it kind of reminds me of the Stairway case, you know, where there was claws in the head and you know, all these different things that could have happened other than falling down a staircase, you know, were there other issues that could. Of a previous altercation or like what you said, a strangulation. Hopefully there. Well, for the parents sake, I would hope that the autopsy might alleviate any of those concerns. That's what I hope. Just so that they're not constantly thinking, you know, these weren't good, these really were, you know, dangerous kids. You know, you do kind of wonder, and I understand what you're saying, maybe he wasn't a good swimmer. And I totally get how. And unfortunately we're experiencing all these horrific drownings lately on people that maybe should have not drowned. Right. So I totally get that. Right. And then, but then at the same time you, you know, this was a, I think it was 180 pound, clearly athletic, fairly healthy kid. And then that's the other thing too is when you look at an autopsy, you also kind of will look to see if there was any preexisting conditions. I highly doubt there was, but sometimes there can be. So if they're prone to a heart attack or something like that. So I don't really know. I don't know the, I don't know the background. I think they're, you know, they're holding things close to their chest right now with, you know, obviously, Mississippi, obviously, I'm assuming, did, you know, looked at the body, did an exam, did everything. The fact that they're able to get the body to have a second autopsy.
- [27:16]
A
Okay.
- [27:18]
B
You know.
- [27:19]
A
Yeah. I mean, imagine being the mother who has this wonderful clean cut. Friends, girlfriends, going to junior college and playing on the team. Very bright future. Yeah, of course you're going to want to know no matter what, what happened and you know, and what do you want? And of course as the mother like you, I would want the result to be. And I, you know, that's that that he wasn't killed by people who thought would be friends, you know, that this was just A terrible accident. Lack of judgment on. On his part, underestimating the power of water and being tired and maybe slightly buzzed. But again, yeah, I want to know. Maybe they were doing gummies. Maybe they were on something else that would, you know, bar your judgment or make you relax in the water and fall asleep. I don't know. So I think that's.
- [28:20]
B
Well, I mean, that could also see
- [28:21]
A
what the autopsy says. Yeah, right.
- [28:23]
B
A toxicology report would obviously shed some light on that, too.
- [28:27]
A
And why you wouldn't want to just take the authorities of the towns saying, yeah, you know, just a terrible accident, nothing, you know, no foul play happened because they're like, well, they're all working together. It kind of reminds me of how the. The Murdoch murders, right. The small town, and how when it happened with his son driving the boat and the poor girl fell out, died, and he, as the powerful dad and also the prosecutor of the town and a private attorney, was going to the kids. And the kids parents, like, don't say anything. We're going to do that, you know, trying to manipulate all these things to protect his child so that the child doesn't go to prison for this, you know, So I think they're just like, no, we're not going to just take the authority's word on it. Our child is dead.
- [29:22]
B
Well, also, you have. I mean, it does sound to me like these boys and friends have some obviously powerful people in their back pocket. You had mentioned maybe a sheriff or whatever, but also a FBI agent. Yeah. I mean, and as a parent of a child, and you've lost the child and maybe you don't have that same connections, for lack of a better word. Yeah, you're gonna want to do everything. I think what's also kind of sad, and I think this is a testament to, unfortunately, what's going on with social media, how much you can find out the suspicions that automatically grow through social media, sleuths, et cetera, is if you really think about this, but for that this case probably would just be treated as a very terrible, unfortunate situation where a kid didn't make it back to the island and then tried to get back and then had a drowning accident. And there wouldn't even be a question as to friends doing something terrible. But now all of a sudden, it just. It just. And I think, honestly, because of that, it's blown into this. And sometimes I feel badly. I still feel so badly for the parents because on top of the grief of losing a child, which I hope is just a terrible accident, they now have to get all these. You know, they have to navigate what everyone's talking about. I just can't even imagine that on
- [30:43]
A
top of the loss. So now saying all that, it isn't. It isn't unheard of to delete your social media right away.
- [30:53]
B
Right?
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A
It is a kind of a smart thing to do, you know, and. And the fact that these kids, their parents probably. The kids probably have been friends, you know, since grammar school. So the kid. The parents probably all have each other's numbers. The parents probably. What do you call it, Circled the wagon and was like, this is what we have to do right now in this situation. And, you know, and we have to be smart about it. And we have to, because it had. The other thing you could say is, yeah, but they could have used the social media to help find him for those times, however it. The argument would be, it was already all over the media that he was missing. So at this point, and they had
- [31:36]
B
all the authorities looking for him, there wasn't anything more that they could do. It's not like they were being ignored. No one's looking for my child. No one's looking for my child because they're being marginalized or something like that. There was none of that. Immediately people got started taking action.
- [31:52]
A
Right?
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B
Yeah. It's just. But then when you also look at that, too, it's so sad, because let's assume all these people were great friends, so now these parents have to get somebody totally uninvolved that might think it's unfortunately a race issue. Instead of leaning on the parents of this kid's good friend, saying, let's all come together as a community, help each other out, because we've lost Nolan in this terrible fourth of July accident. It's so sad that it's going in such a different direction, but you just want, you know.
- [32:22]
A
But you don't.
- [32:22]
B
But we don't know the answer either.
- [32:24]
A
I mean, look, the Charlie Kirk murder trial has begun.
- [32:27]
B
Yes.
- [32:27]
A
And it's not the trial.
- [32:29]
B
It's the preliminary hearing, isn't it?
- [32:31]
A
Sorry, it's preliminary hearing. You're the lawyer. And, you know, from what I'm seeing, it's being very. It seems to be what we. What we originally told. Okay, Right. It seems to be that this is the guy who, in fact, killed Charlie Kirk. Well, we know for the last year, you know, it's been Candace, Owen and all these other people, you know, was it his mic thing that was set up? And why did they do this? And why did they pick him up and why did they Immediately clean up the crime scene. And why did they remove this place where he was murdered? And I'm like, well, there's a school, and they probably don't want this to be a place where people come and take a photo of where Charlie Kirk was murdered for the next 40 years. They do want to, like, move on. And kids were really traumatized. And I mean, I felt like I've seen so many different angles based on who's creating the video for me to see. And then you see another angle and you're like, oh, my God. Yeah, these kids were traumatized. Like, they saw a person die a horrific, gross death. Execution. And they did run. Right. And they. They. Of course they're not gonna wait for an ambulance. Of course they picked him up and went into the car and tried to get him as quickly there as possible. And other people were immed on the phone tell. Because this is what happened. I mean, who knows who? But it's like, I, you know, I've always been like, is this guy really just going to take the fall if he didn't do it? I mean, wouldn't he have the greatest defense? And I don't know if I'm not following it enough if. If his.
- [34:08]
B
I'm actually not either.
- [34:09]
A
I. Yeah. So I don't know if his defense is I'm 100% innocent or what his defense is. I know they're going for the death penalty, so I don't know if at
- [34:17]
B
this point right now, it's a preliminary hearing, so they just need to get enough evidence to move forward to hold what they call it. Hold to answer, hold this defendant to answer. And they're also, excuse me, presenting just evidence of just the officers or not actual witnesses. It should just be officers because that's all you really need to get to the answer. So the burden is not reasonable doubt. It's just getting an idea of if there's enough to hold to answer so they don't have to really present a defense. It's really the prosecution's burden just to bring it to the next level.
- [34:50]
A
Right. Okay, so now let's get into this other crime that is a classic Alpine divorce.
- [34:58]
B
I was just thinking of that term.
- [34:59]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [35:00]
B
I mean, so exactly what it is.
- [35:02]
A
I know.
- [35:03]
B
It's choice hotels get you more of what you value comfort in. It's calling your name, save on the stage. Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct@storieshotels.com Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts why did I search the Internet for Answers to my cold sore problem. Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole
- [35:30]
A
filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores
- [35:33]
B
in various stages of ooze.
- [35:37]
A
I can clear my search history, but
- [35:39]
B
I can never unsee that. Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.
- [35:50]
A
This is the case of this pastor, David.
- [35:55]
B
David Vandermeer. We'll just give him a name because David Vandermeer, we can call him pastor or ex pastor.
- [36:00]
A
And in 2006, he was married to his wife Bernadette of 10 years. And she was like a Betty Boop performer type person in Las Vegas. So she wore that outfit. I don't know if she sang or danced or just walked around. And all of her money, all of her tips she had to give to him. And he was becoming more increasing, like you can't get coffee at work. And then this one witness friend of hers said she couldn't even get her nails done anymore. Which, you know, that's part of her job for the appearance and everything. Cause she's like, ugh, it's just not worth it. Like, you'll bitch about me spending money on that and that. So then he says to her, hey, for our 10 year anniversary, why don't we go on a hike at Zion National Park? Wouldn't that be fun?
- [36:55]
B
Wouldn't that be fun to celebrate Angels Landing? Just, just, you know.
- [36:59]
A
But isn't it near Zion?
- [37:01]
B
It's in Zion National Park. It's Angel's Landing and night in. Yeah.
- [37:05]
A
And he comes back and is like, oh my God, my wife slipped and fell and she's dead. They have a funeral. And now this witness, you know, who was building this case, helped build this case, said he was there with a girl from like the Teen Pastor center. And she was sitting next to him at the funeral. At the funeral. And she's like, I didn't necessarily think they were having an affair. I just thought, well, you know, he's single and he's kind of hunting, whatever. So all these years passed, 20 years, and he ends up with that girl for quite a while, the T. And she was a teenager when they were dating and he was pursuing her for two years. They were paying for hotel rooms by the hour and all this. And then he got. But he was able to get a car and everything. He upped his insurance on the wife. He was paying on two premiums he did get after she died. $537,000.
- [38:13]
B
Yeah, I think $567,000.
- [38:15]
A
Yeah. Yes. And so he went on to, you know, support her. Support the mistress.
- [38:21]
B
The mistress, yeah. Yeah. He actually supported the mistress, worked on the relationship. She obviously, you know, became. If she was a minor at the time that Bernadette died, I'm not exactly sure, but she obviously became of age. So privately they get married in 2008, and then publicly they get married in 2010, but then they divorce in 2014. But it takes many, many, many, many years later for her to finally realize the guilt and everything in how much she's been groomed, is my understanding. So she is working with them for quite some time and does mention that he did say, you know, I want to be with you. I want her dead. I think he essentially admitted to her.
- [39:02]
A
I think he said, the only way we could be together is if she died. Right. So I think, because there isn't that much, you know, of, like, how this came about, that 20 years later, they arrested him. But it appears that it was based on her testimony, other people's witnesses testimony, like Bernadette's friend, you know, like the woman that also was at the funeral. Like, there were people like that.
- [39:28]
B
And I think there was inconsistencies in his story that they were able to kind of come back.
- [39:32]
A
Oh, from. From the. From the day of the death.
- [39:36]
B
Yeah. Which would. I mean, so there's inconsistencies there. Obviously, I think the primary testimony would be from the person that was groomed, because then we look back on it and we go, oh, wow, this was really, really a grooming. And he really, really hit it. And then. And I think the parent. The family was always very, very suspicious over the years and never kind of let up. And, you know, there's no statute of limitations on murder, so it doesn't matter when they pull the plug. But go ahead. You were saying something?
- [40:04]
A
Yeah, no, I. So I, you know, I would just, you know, now. So. So then he does get arrested, and right before the preliminary hearing, they find him in his cell and he has committed suicide. There was a suicide note that we, the public, have not been privy to because the case is now done.
- [40:27]
B
And they just say they have no defendant.
- [40:29]
A
But I understand you as someone who at sometimes in your current job, has 85,000 cases, okay, this case is done. You know, like, thrilled. But I need to know, Like, I need to know more. I need to know what was the case like, what did. What else? You must have had a lot to have arrested him and not just a disgruntled ex wife that, you know, is, like, you Know what? When I think about it, he wasn't. He didn't cry that much when he came back. That. When he told me that she fell off the cliff. And then on this particular night, we got in a wicked fight and he said, I'm gonna fucking push you off Angel's way. Like I did Bernadette. Like I need to. That girl. Now that he's dead, that girl needs to come on Juicy Crimes. She needs to tell us her story. If she doesn't want to come on Juicy Crimes, go on someone else's show, write a book. Start your own TikTok series. I need to hear from her, how they met, how it happened, what did she. What was he. What was. What was the story he told to her about Bernadette that somehow didn't make her feel bad as a 16 year old sleeping with this pastor? What religious bullshit did he tell her? Right, because he had such a hold on her, you know, because clearly when he came home and said, oh, my God, we went on a hike and she fucking fell off the. He probably didn't tell her the truth for years. But at one, at some point, there was enough to make her think, or maybe she. As time goes on and. And the honeymoon stage is over, maybe he started controlling her. Controlling her money, being jealous, you know, all this. And. And then she's maturing and she's waking up and she's saying, oh, my God, he's blaming me for the same things that he would criticize Bernadette for. Oh, my God, my life's in danger. I need to get divorced from this man. And then maybe she went to the police. And that police officer, it was 4:45, and he was going to get off at work at 5, and he's like, okay, sure, I took your report. And time goes on. And time goes on. And then a new person comes in and is like, can I see the cold case files or can I see some. And you know what I mean? That's the way these cold case things happen.
- [43:00]
B
Like people investigators change, and usually, I think Bernadette's family members never actually stopped to be totally honest with you. So I immediately started thinking to myself, well, did he ever get married again? You know, that's after the teenage girl. Yeah.
- [43:16]
A
Yeah, he did. Oh, my God.
- [43:18]
B
He was married and divorced three times after Bernadette. So there was Bernadette for 10 years. There was this victim, I'm gonna call it. That's I think the appropriate word, second wife, that he technically married in 2008. So maybe when she was 18, 19, divorced six years later. So they were having trouble, right? Then he got married again and divorced. Then he got married again and divorced. He had no children. He no longer was a pastor after the incident occurred. He had, you know, odd jobs. I don't know who his mother.
- [43:55]
A
He was like a yoga guru, but
- [43:58]
B
what I call it as a master manipulator. He obviously manipulated a lot of other women, and they all ended in divorce. So he probably had the same M.O. the entire time. And that usually means he's a pretty much of a coward, which explains why he did not want to face the charges. Because my understanding is that before he even had his first hearing, now, he was arrested in Vegas. He had to be extradited to Utah because that's where the crime occurred. And I think maybe he was extradited. And he was about to go not to his preliminary hearing, but to his arraignment, and they found him deceased. And I don't know exactly how. I don't know if he, you know, hung himself. Yeah, I took it some. I don't know how the actual commit committed, but he didn't even want to go to the first. He wrote some sort of suicide note. Probably wrote a note like, I can't believe these allegations have never left me. I proclaim my innocence, but as there's no point in me even going on, nobody will believe me. That's what I think. I don't think he confessed that he did this. I don't think that was suicide. No.
- [44:56]
A
Well, if I guess he hadn't killed. Killed himself, and I was the defense attorney, the first thing I would open up with is, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client, after he was widowed, married three different women and divorced all three of them. He didn't kill them, Right?
- [45:17]
B
Exactly right.
- [45:19]
A
He didn't kill them. He tried for love. He's not good at. He's not good at marriage. He's kind of a controlling dick. He was a dick to Bernadette. He did take her money. He was cheating. He thought he could have a teenage girlfriend and still have a wife that's bringing home the bacon. That's pretty cute as a Betty Boop girl. And he was balancing it all. He didn't want her dead. Everyone gets life insurance because she was the breadwinner. And they went on a hike and it's slippery and there's no surveillance cameras there on a rock and whatever.
- [46:00]
B
Well, there's a lot of talk about how once she passed away, he took the life insurance money and he Basically bought this girl a home and to try to work on that relationship. But I'm thinking, well, he probably did that, and he spent it that way
- [46:11]
A
to hide it because she was a minor. That. And also, maybe he was so generous with her because she knew the truth.
- [46:21]
B
Right. Either way.
- [46:22]
A
And he didn't want to piss her off. And then maybe when they got divorced, she did okay in the divorce. And then as she matured more, she was like, I. I really am religious, and I've got to tell everything I know so that, you know, I. I can't live with myself knowing what I know. And I'm gonna go to the police and blah, blah, blah. And then because it was so circumstantial and 20 years old, and it's all just based on ex girlfriends and wives stories, right? Because the only the two of them were on the mountain. Well, yeah, so. But clearly, yeah, him killing himself. I hope that note was at least like, yes, she didn't accidentally fall. She didn't want to kill herself. You know, I. I would love to
- [47:11]
B
see that note, because I think just the opposite. I think he basically said, no one's ever gonna believe me. I've reached the end of my road. I can't believe this has been chasing me for 20 years. I can't believe people still don't believe me, and now they really won't. I can't believe my ex wife, meaning the teenage girl that's now become his witness, she's testifying against me, which of course she can, because there's no privilege at that point because they're divorced. Oh, my God. I can't believe this is happening to me. I don't think he admitted it.
- [47:36]
A
And also, that witness, it's like, again, as the defense attorney, he probably started cheating on her with wife number three. He had four wives, so she was probably. So she. That probably wasn't a pleasant breakup. Right?
- [47:54]
B
And I don't think he's gonna give Bernadette's family that closure. I did it. There's no way. I don't think he's made that way. I think he's probably, again, sweltering in hell right now, quite frankly.
- [48:04]
A
Again, if this happened to you, your loved one, and it's a horrible situation. It's not like he claimed that she committed suicide, but he really killed her. In that case, I see how families are. Like, my daughter did not kill herself. She wasn't mentally ill, and she would never leave her children. He did it. Those cases that we do that.
- [48:29]
B
Right.
- [48:29]
A
He's Saying they were hiking. Right. She slipped. Right. So as a mother of that child, what is. What would you rather have the notes say? I was a piece of shit husband. I've lived with the guilt that I took her on this hike and she slipped and she fell, and I was a cheater who was with a teenage girl. I was awful because of that. I don't want to live through me the way I treated Bernadette on trial for the world to see. I'm miserable. I'm gonna end my life. But she slipped and fell. Okay. I think the past I went through.
- [49:07]
B
Right?
- [49:08]
A
But I'm saying, whatever the truth, I'm saying of the note, okay, wouldn't that be, as a loved one, a better thing to read, of course, than to think for the last 20 years that your daughter, the last thing she knew was either feeling her husband's hands on her back or being face to face with his eyes as they were struggling and he threw her off. Like, I would want it to be. Same thing with Nolan. I would want it to just be an awful accident. I would not want it to be. You know, even though maybe my suspicions were always this, I would be relieved to know that, no, that wasn't how her life ended. That wasn't the last thing she knew as she was falling to her death. She was.
- [49:55]
B
Was.
- [49:56]
A
It was that she was like, oh, my God, I. Why did you know, oh, my God, I'm falling to my death. But not that my husband did it. So I don't know. I don't know that we'll ever know, but I would hope that. I would love for these ex girlfriends, these ex wives, right, to get together and do a documentary, a podcast, something, and really sit down with each other and go through all. Probably the gaslighting that happened. The. Like, right now I'm watching this thing on Paramount plus, it was based on a podcast. It's three parts. It's called Don't Date Brandon. It's not about my Brandon, but it's called Don't Date Brandon. And I'm on, like, I just finished the first episode, and it's basically how this. You. The way they set it up is, you know, these women eventually find each other, right, and realize that the guy that they dated and were married to and Brandon, the manipulation that he did to make, like, his ex wife and his current wife never communicate and also hate each other to the point where he was very technically savvy, and he was texting as his ex wife on, like, the custody app, you know, the parent to co parenting app.
- [51:10]
B
Co parent talking.
- [51:11]
A
Yeah. Where he'd be like, look, look how difficult she is. Look how difficult she is. And then they finally get together and the wife's like, I never wrote those texts. I would. So he was somehow able to get on this app and make it appear like it was his ex wife being difficult to show his current wife. And then once the current wife left him and they start to get together, they start to uncover how much. So sometimes when, you know, I would love to hear from all these wives, because so many times men feed the second or third wife girlfriend. The ex is crazy and she's a bitch. And she said this about you and she hates you and she's jealous of you. And when we go to the gymnastics thing, don't even look at her. Don't even talk to her. And then wife number one is like, you know, we went to the gymnastics things. I looked over to smile at her like, isn't this great? I know how much our daughter loves you. And she wouldn't even look at me.
- [52:05]
B
What a coin.
- [52:07]
A
And you're like, oh, my God. And then five years later, you're like. Like, we could have been friends. Like, I didn't want. Brandon, I was glad that you're with our daughter, but you acted like such a cold. And then it's like, well, that's because I was fed this lie. Like, it's so crazy.
- [52:22]
B
And it just becomes that, you know, that effect where it just kind of grows and grows and grows. And then, you know, who, you know who ends up hurting is the child, of course.
- [52:31]
A
So now let's go to our next one, which is super juicy, too. This case has been going on for quite a while. It's a murder for hire. A classic.
- [52:43]
B
Well, allegedly, yes.
- [52:45]
A
Right? A classic murder for hire, where the wife has a boyfriend and they believe that she was working with her boyfriend and another man to have them go and kill her husband. In which she was in a bitter custody battle with three children and a divorce. This is Lindsay and Robert Shiver.
- [53:10]
B
I don't know if it's Shiver or Shiver. I'm not sure how it's pronounced.
- [53:14]
A
He was a football player at Auburn. His dad was some prominent football player. I think he comes from all the money. They have a second home in the Bahamas, a family home. They have access to a private jet, and that's the life they were living. But they were getting a divorce. He was divorcing her based on her cheating. And then what happened was the Bahamas police, Bahamian police were investigating some Other type of robbery or something. And got a hold of a burglary
- [53:48]
B
and a theft burglary at a bar. Yeah.
- [53:50]
A
And got a hold of this guy's phone, and in reading all the different text messages, there was something from she and this lover saying, kill him. Kill my husband, Robert Shiver. And they deducted from this phone and from interviewing this guy that this was something that these three were going to work on. So they arrest her, arrest the lover. Robert then is made aware of it. Of course, he goes forward with the divorce going, I cannot believe this crazy bitch was going to do this.
- [54:23]
B
Right.
- [54:24]
A
In the meantime, while this is going on, because this happened, like in 23, I think.
- [54:29]
B
Yeah. The actual WhatsApp text was on July 16, 2023. So shortly thereafter, she and the two other Bohemian gentlemen were arrested. And it's still pending. So we're at what, we're three years pending right now. I believe she's on bail. Everybody was on bail. And there was certain regulations to stay on bail. And then they both interviewed when they weren't supposed to. So they both had interviews with local or other media avenues, and then the bail was revoked. And then somehow they were able to get bail again with these new conditions. So she is out on bail. And the big issue is. Well, there's two issues. One is jurisdictional. So she's trying to argue that because she was not in Bahamas when they found the phone, which is the primary source of evidence, that somehow they don't have jurisdiction over her because she technically wasn't in there. The phone was. The two other gentlemen were in the Bahamas. She was probably in the Bahamas at some time. But that's one of the arguments. What I find more fascinating because obviously, I don't know, Bohemian law is the case, the proceeding on a case of a conspiracy to commit murder.
- [55:49]
A
Right?
- [55:50]
B
So the whole issue is conspiracy. And the main thing with a conspiracy always is that you need an agreement, an actual agreement between, you know, one
- [55:57]
A
or more people to commit a crime.
- [56:00]
B
Okay, so the first issue on the agreement is can the prosecution prove that this was for real? Or was it more just like this motherfucker? You know, he didn't give me the private jet. Here's his picture. I wish you could. I wish you would kill him. Like she was just, you know. But there was. So in California law, and in most states, you don't just need an agreement, you need concrete steps to show that the agreement was going to actually happen. I don't think there was any concrete steps, but in Bohemian, you don't need concrete steps. So to me, it seems kind of crazy that this woman and these two gentlemen can spend a significant time in prison for an agreement, even if they made an agreement. So it's really. To what level was this agreement? Because I don't see anything that shows a gun was bought. They have them talking or meeting. There's other conversations happening.
- [56:51]
A
They've.
- [56:52]
B
They found a weapon or they've, you know, they've. They've said meet at this particular place, then they've met this place.
- [56:58]
A
They've.
- [56:58]
B
They know that Robert Shiver is going to be at this place at this time. I don't. They're either not sharing it or they don't need it. So I think the prosecution kind of has a tough battle, and I actually think the defense might win on this situation. But I don't know. I mean, I don't practice law in the Bahamas.
- [57:15]
A
I mean, here's the thing. Imagine you're her, okay? And you're going to the vacation home of your soon to be ex husband. You're cheating around. You meet some bohemian guy that you're boning, getting it every which way but Sunday. And now, three years later, you're still in this nightmare. You're living with your parents. You're. You know, I don't know if she's getting any kind of support or anything. I mean, she's tried to kill him, so I'm guessing she's not getting any money. She's not going to Bahamas and having fun except for court stuff.
- [57:52]
B
And hopefully she's seeing her children. Cause I can only imagine what that's doing with the custody arrangements.
- [57:57]
A
Yeah, I was, I was trying to look that up. Like, what is their current custody arrangement?
- [58:00]
B
Right.
- [58:01]
A
He goes on to date Savannah Chrisley, who is very successful with her TV shows and podcasts. She really is the one that helped get her parents out of prison. Todd and Julie Chrisley. Todd was not thrilled about the age difference between this gentleman. You know, they've since broke up, but they were together for like two years. Wow.
- [58:27]
B
And all while this case is going on, obviously. Right? Yeah.
- [58:31]
A
And she has argued, please can I have my ankle bracelet taken off for modeling and social media opportunities that I'm missing out on. Oh, God, that is such a bullshit thing. I have done a lot of social media things in which my ankle would not be featured.
- [58:52]
B
Okay, well, I think it's not like they can't see the ankle. It's where she might need to go. You have to be monitored. You can't, you know, when you're on an ankle bracelet. You can't just go along and on your ferret and you just have this like.
- [59:03]
A
So you're telling me that you think that someone's offering her a free trip to Cabo to check out their all inclusive resort. Like so many people are following her because she's such a good timed influencer. She's not that great looking modeling. Are you kidding me? Like, I just think that, look, you gotta do what you gotta do.
- [59:23]
B
She was a beauty, wasn't she? Miss Alabama or something?
- [59:25]
A
Or I mean maybe she has some little, I mean it could be a hundred dollar job and that would legit say, well, I can't go and do it and I'm not getting any money from him. I would be doing everything I could too. Especially if I really didn't mean to kill my husband. And even if I did mean to kill my husband, of course I'm gonna to stick with my story till the end because they're looking at like 60 years each.
- [59:47]
B
Well, I think that's why the defense is now trying to take the jurisdictional avenue because that would be essentially a pretrial issue. And so because the other issue of this wasn't really a genuine agreement and it was more like, I'm just pissed off at my guy and I was throwing things out there and I shouldn't have. Oops, you know, that's, that's a trial issue, whereas the jurisdictional issue is a pretrial issue. And she's trying to wrap this up in the bud so they don't have to put, you know, 12 people on a box and extend this out even further and she can be released of her ankle bracelet and her bail conditions.
- [60:19]
A
Murder her. She's the same person. Especially when it's a woman trying to hire someone to kill her husband. It's always the same thing. It's either I was just joking and didn't mean it, you know, and then when they do it where the guy slips in the car and he is the undercover agent, which I always think would be fun, you know, you're the undercover agent acting like a gangster that's gonna kill this. And they have to get the girl to be like, so a hundred percent, we're doing this. Yes, yes. Here's your $4,000. Okay.
- [60:51]
B
And then I'm gonna send you.
- [60:52]
A
Yeah, then I'm gonna send you. Yeah. And then I'm gonna send you the photo of when it's done. Great. I cannot wait. It should be around 3 o' clock tomorrow. Perfect. Thank you so Much. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, fine. Then they have to go to the guy and be like, hey, by the way.
- [61:10]
B
Yeah.
- [61:11]
A
Your wives are plotting to kill you. We didn't want to tell you earlier because we didn't want you to fuck up our whole thing, but we need you to get in this ditch, and we're going to splash blood on your forehead, and I'm going to take a photo of you to look like I killed, you know, you. I got to send it to her. Like, this was a case. I remember. That we did.
- [61:33]
B
Right. And so that she believed that. Yes. And actually was executed.
- [61:37]
A
She, you know, gets the thing, and then she puts smiley face on it.
- [61:41]
B
It.
- [61:42]
A
And then her defense is. I didn't mean to put smiley face on it. I meant to put crying face on it. Meaning I didn't really mean. I didn't really think you'd go through it. I thought we were doing some sexy role playing, like, whatever they say. Remember the girl that said this was for a reality show? I thought we were doing a reality show scenario. Do you remember that one in Miami?
- [62:00]
B
No.
- [62:00]
A
Oh, she was like, a hottie. One of your kinds that you're like, oh, those lips are too big to defend. You know, when you said you still
- [62:09]
B
love that you love what I said. Said that. You're like. You always bring it back. You're like, oh, my God, that's amazing. Like, too much injectables.
- [62:16]
A
She's, you know, typical Miami trash, from the nails to the hair extensions to the lips to the cheeks to the tan. And she also had kind of a cheesy, gross, like, workout grifter type boyfriend. But she was, you know, got to the place where she then said her defense was. I thought, when I knew that there were cameras hidden in this car, and I thought we were planning out, like, a really fun. I thought we were doing something so that we could get a reality show. There's been so many.
- [62:48]
B
I can't. I'm sorry.
- [62:49]
A
That I bring up random ones and I can't remember how they turned out. But it's all. It's so it all comes through. I do think this is a weak one. I do 100% think in California this wouldn't be enough, obviously, because in California they need the whole thing acted out. And even then they can get away and say, I didn't think it was real anyway, or whatever. And then the attempted murder is always, you know, not as bad as if you were successful, which I always think is weird. It should just be just as bad. As if you were.
- [63:20]
B
There's a big difference between the attempted murder. Yeah.
- [63:24]
A
But we'll get into one last one that I found out, which is actually interesting. Yeah, let's talk about that.
- [63:31]
B
And that's actually a good segue into. Since we're talking about the difference between murder and attempted murder. So you want to talk about the radiologist. Right.
- [63:41]
A
Mr. Darmit, set it forward because I think many of you will remember this one.
- [63:46]
B
Yeah, well, this one because it's also pretty interesting right now because essentially the case is over. So we have an ex radiologist, Indian gentleman, Dharmash Patel. And back in 23 again, January 23rd. He and his family, he has a wife and he has two children. Seven and four are driving in their Tesla up. And this is an interesting name too, called Devil's side on Highway 1, which is in Northern California. I'm not sure if that's kind of by Santa Cruz exactly. But we're, you know, it's in one of those treacherous areas. And while he's driving, I, you know, for whatever reason he has some sort of psychotic brake and he just drives his turn truck right off that canyon. Just with all four children. 250ft down a canyon. Shockingly, thank God they all survive.
- [64:39]
A
Okay.
- [64:41]
B
He is, I think the wife really says he was going through major depressive. I think it was intentional.
- [64:47]
A
I'm very worried about him.
- [64:50]
B
And that alone. He was charged with three counts of attempted murder. He had goes into bail. But in California, because this is a California case, we have something called mental health diversion. We also have something called military diversion, but mental health diversion, and it's codified in the penal code, essentially. And you're going to find this interesting, Heather. Pretty much any crime can potentially have mental health diversion with the exception of murder and some certain sex crimes. So attempted murder is actually one that could work.
- [65:32]
A
Okay.
- [65:33]
B
Now there is a lot to prove. You have to prove, number one, that you have a mental disease and defect. It's gotta be an actual mental disease and defect. Apparently tremendous amount of psychiatrists testified to that. And essentially what he was going through is he believed that his family was being followed and potentially kidnapped by Jeffrey Epstein. And he felt the only. Or his people and he felt the only way to save them was to essentially kill them. And that was his psychotic break. And that you also have to find
- [66:11]
A
that he thinks even though Jeffrey Epstein was dead at the time.
- [66:15]
B
Yeah, but you know, he has all these followers and everything. At least that's what I'm reading. I'm reading that somewhere along the line. And the mom, you know, supported him. I mean, the wife supported him in the sense of he was going through something. It was incredible. It was terrible. But I do think he was, you know, had this major psychotic break. So obviously the prosecution doesn't buy it. He goes, this guy, she's not a candidate for mental health diversion. And we need to proceed on this case. But the judge, and it's a discretionary thing, finds, okay, I do think, let's see if he can go through a program and be rehabilitated, essentially. So it's an outpatient mental health program, you know, requires all of this stuff. And while he's going through that, in the meantime, they start working on family therapy. And if you complete the program, it essentially dismisses the case. It's essentially, you've been cured of your defect. It wasn't an intentional act because it was an act that only occurred because you were who had this mental defect. And now we've solved the problem and it's over. And they're back together.
- [67:21]
A
They're back together.
- [67:22]
B
And I'm like, with the family, I
- [67:24]
A
think if one of the children had died, I don't think he'd get off. Right?
- [67:29]
B
No, he could. Well, no, he. Yeah, if one of the kids had. If there was a murder case that's not mental health diversion, he would have to go to trial. Now, obviously, then it would be a different defense. It could be not guilty by reason of insanity, for example.
- [67:41]
A
Is there any way it could be like his license is taken. Taken away, like, indefinitely or at least for like a decade?
- [67:48]
B
It is.
- [67:49]
A
He.
- [67:49]
B
That was part of the deal, too, was that he'd get rid of the radiologist. He's not a doctor anymore. He had to. His license, medical license was suspended right after this incident. Because you would think, too. You would think, okay, my goodness, why, if I have this mental disease, I shouldn't be a doctor and I shouldn't be working on people. So now the interesting thing about mental health diversion, because they're kind of maybe this case or. I don't know.
- [68:11]
A
I mean, have you ever. I. I would never let him be around my kids again unsupervised after ever. Ever. Right.
- [68:17]
B
Right.
- [68:19]
A
So, I mean, how could you. How. How do you know that he's going to stop taking his medication and have a weird episode again? I mean, this is straight up like the Andrea Gates and stuff, you know, thinking I had to do this or they were. They were possessed, devil this, that it can come back. I mean. Oh, my God. Yeah.
- [68:40]
B
A lot of times. Why would you ever trust your, you know, your husband with the child before? And obviously CPS would have gotten involved. They clearly didn't. Mom took care of the kids during that time. And normally you wouldn't allow somebody like that to come back in the life. But if they didn't take away from the mother, then once the case is over, and let's say even. Let's say the case. Let's say the. Let's say the child custody or the dependency case was over, it would still end in custody for mom. Sole Sol. Right. But after this case is over, Dad's case is dismissed. She believes he's cured. She has the right to bring dad back into the case.
- [69:19]
A
Oh, my God.
- [69:20]
B
Would you. No. Would I. No. I'd always be very, very nervous. But we are talking about an Indian family and the culture in India. The Indian family is very, very tight. Like, I believe. I think there was a time when he was going through the mental health that he was living with his parents. Not surprised. So we probably got a very tight cultural family pulling together. I mean, I think for a lot of us, it's, like, shocking. They can't believe it, but. And now with mental health diversion, there's another prong, too, and it's still discretion with the judge. But the other prong is there has to be a belief that this person is not a safety risk. Okay. And I think in his particular case, because it was, you know, a psychotic break, that kind of more had to do with his concerns with his family. That was. Didn't make any sense. And he wasn't one of those people that was, let's say, wielding an ax, running around the neighborhood. They didn't feel that this particular person was a safety risk. Maybe because he had basically lived a. A commendable life. He was a doctor. He wasn't under any sort of medical malpractice or anything like that.
- [70:24]
A
Well, thank you so much for explaining all that, Shannon. This was great. We didn't even get to all of our crimes, but that's fine because we'll do another one soon.
- [70:33]
B
We did pretty good, though. I think there was only one that was left, so we got through it.
- [70:38]
A
Next week, of course. Well, thank you so much, Shannon. Tell everybody where they can follow and find you if they need any legal help. Help.
- [70:44]
B
It's always michaelgoldstein.net, you can always find me there. And of course, on Instagram, I'm just Shannon Goldstein.
- [70:50]
A
Thank you. Thank you so much. Love you. Bye, Sissy.
- [70:54]
B
Love you, too. Bye, Sis.
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