← Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald
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Foreign.
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Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I have your favorite sister, my sister, Shannon McDonald Goldstein, attorney at law, specializing in criminal defense, as well as juvenile dependencies. Dependencies. And you've done some family court. You've done lots of different cases. Welcome back to Juicy Crimes. And it's so great to have you here. We have lots to discuss.
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Yeah, it's so great to be back. And this is actually my debut in your beautiful studio. So this is really fun for me. Yes.
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Make sure you subscribe Everybody to my YouTube and spread the word. And you can watch our beautiful faces as we talk. Okay, let's get into a Netflix doc that just dropped called Crash. It is only one like hour and a half long episode, which would make Drake happy. He gets very annoyed when something is three parts and it doesn't have to be.
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I understand that.
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And when I started watching it in the beginning, I was like, this better not be three parts because we need to get to this. But the case is very sad. I do remember hearing about it. It was in Ohio. It happened July 31, 2022.
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Yeah.
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Where this 17 year old girl named McKenzie Shirola, who was driving a car at 5:30 in the morning, they had all their group of friends were hanging out. They like to smoke pot, they like to partake in tripping on mushrooms and some psychedelics. So Mackenzie, with her boyfriend Dominic Russo, who was 20, they actually lived together at his place. Even though she was still only 17, she had graduated from high school like a month prior. And their friend name, Devian Flanagan. Right. They leave at like 5:30 in the morning. And the one friend who is part of the documentary, who is her good friend, who. Who has well over 200,000 followers on social media. 200,000 thousand? Yeah, on social media. So she's kind of like giving her perspective. And this other boy that was there named Bubba said, Devion said, I want to go home first, maybe take a shower, maybe sleep a little bit before I come to your house to help you on your truck.
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Meaning Dominic's truck.
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No, Davion, who is the friend.
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Right.
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Made plans with this other boy named Bubba. Oh, I got to go to his house later. That like in the morning. But he was like, I'm gonna go home for a little bit, maybe take a nap. That's what he made it sound like. It's summer. You're wondering, do I go on a GLP1? Where do I begin? Well, you begin with Roe. They have the lowest cost options out there. No paperwork, no hassle, no waiting on hold Also, RO offers weight loss drugs in a pill form. So you take a pill every single day. That's something I've done and I really like how it works for me. Go to Ro Co JuicyCrimes to see if you qualify. That's Ro Co JuicyCrimes to get started on Ro. Go to Roe Co Safety for box warning and full safety information about GLP1 medications.
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Marvel Television's Wonder Man. An eight episode series now streaming on Disney.
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A superhero remake. Not exactly what we'd expect from an Oscar winning direction director. Action. Simon Williams audition for Wonder Man. I'm gonna need you to sign this,
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assuming you don't have superpowers. I never work again. If anyone found out, my lips are sealed. Marvel Television's Wonder Man all eight episodes
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now streaming only on Disney Plus. So they all leave and then around 6am A police officer is just driving his vehicle with the cameras showing what he's looking at and he's just driving paroling and sees this horrific crash. A car that just looks like it's been mushed by someone who smashed it with their foot up against this wall. And he's like, oh my God. You know, he's immediately calling for backup. He sees that there's one girl in the front driver's seat who's McKenzie, who appears to be still breathing, doesn't know the status of the other two, but it was Dominic in the passenger seat who is her boyfriend and Devian in the back and they. She's airlifted and she lives and the other two die. Right. So in the. This is where I do think this documentary was done very well. First I want to say in. But they don't cover everything because you did more research and you were bringing it up to me and I was like, no, that's not in the right doc.
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And.
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And people may remember from their own research of when this happened a couple years ago because it was like, wait, what is the story? So what was interesting is they show the police body cam when he goes to tell the parents who are in the waiting room of the hospital, they just know that their daughter got in a car accident. They don't really know anything. The dad's thinking like, I don't know if she's going to be a quadriplegic, like I don't know what's happening. And he breaks the news that two other passengers were there and they're dead. And so they're just like, what? Oh my God, not Dominic, her boyfriend. And. And you see their initial reaction and they Seem very normal, like any other parent, parents in their mid-40s, like normal, just normal middle class, like whatever type of people. And then they tell, you know, then she starts to come about. She has like a broken collarbone and all these like things that she has to, to get through. But they gather up the surveillance, you know, of like this building over here and this. And when your reaction was my reaction when you see the car going. So it, it went to up to 100 miles an hour, right? Went through a stop sign, straight into a wall. So it wasn't like, oh my gosh, I was going down a windy road and I lost control or I was drunk or I tried to break. There was no point. When they investigated the car and the video, there was no point that she ever tried to break the car. But one thing they did notice in doing that, at one point it went, it was in drive and then it went to neutral and then it went back to drive, right? And where they're thinking, did one of the boys try to stop her right from straight driving into this wall? Obviously. So then the question is, what happened? And she said, right when she woke up in the hospital, she said, I remember getting in the car and I remember driving. And that's all I remember. That's what she has said from day one.
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Which makes sense because she, number one, obviously was in a very traumatic accident. So typically you're not going to remember anything anyway because you've suffered this traumatic accident. But then of course, as we continue going and researching more and or as a police research more, we now kind of wonder, well, is this somewhat of a manufactured response? It's pretty easy.
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Why?
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How could you get in trouble if you just simply don't remember what in fact happened? So then we have to look at all the evidence, like what really did happen. So we start, like you said, with a surveillance camera, which is really horrific when you see just like how fast, how fast.
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Like I don't think I've ever seen like a regular car go that fast, right On a, a normal street. Like, it's just like, like it's just shocking, right?
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I think this particular area, my understanding was it was a very industrial area. It was not a very traversed area in typical. Really the only people that would be there would be the people that need to be there. They're like if, if it's a, a truck of some sort that maybe has a building there. So, and I. There were some curves in the road, but maybe during this particular time there weren't. But you always kind of Wonder.
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You mean the stretch?
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The stretch before? Yeah, the stretch. So typically, if you're gonna go that distance for any length of time, and we have to think about how long it would take to get to 100 miles per hour and then maintain that hundred miles per hour, and what we find out later, I mean, the first thing you always do is look at a car, right? You're always looking to see what could have mechanically gone wrong with the car.
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Well.
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Well, after a thorough investigation, nothing mechanically went wrong with the car. Then you kind of look at what I would call like the black box in an airplane for a car, and then what's determined. And this becomes pretty technical, but what's determined is that the car was actually never really was going 100 miles per hour for quite some time. It didn't. There wasn't any show of any braking, any rapid movement, anything that would maybe indicate that she was trying to avoid something. So it's just. It looks like whatever happened was very intentional and methodical and deliberate, you know, so.
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So she was like, you know, I don't remember it. I don't remember it. We'll get into her defense in a minute. But. So if it was. She's like. He says, I'm gonna break up with you. Or she. Or she is pissed and is like, I don't care if I die. Like, I'm. And the poor kid in the back was like, just had nothing to do with him.
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Right?
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And I think that was something that the prosecutor thought happened, that she chose to do this and maybe she intended to die, maybe she intended to live. It wasn't what she was thinking about. She was thinking about hurting her boyfriend, right? And showing him, like, I'm gonna freaking do it. And other people that are close to her was like, she cared a lot about her health. She loved her life. She had things to look forward to. I don't believe that she would do this, which essentially is suicide.
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Right?
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I mean, you're. You yourself are crashing into a car, into a wall. So you have to assume you're not going to be unscathed after. You know, you're not trying to. You know, it's just.
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I mean, the planning. Let's just assume for a second she did plan it, because there was. At least the research that I did, there was some evidence, and that was presented where she essentially went to this particular site before. That's not a site that she normally traverses, that normally anybody traverses. That's such a.
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Like, where did you come up with that word? Traveling?
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What does that mean that you would go to. That you would actually travel on traverse?
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No, it's good for you. Okay. Probably literally never heard you say that word. So anyway, go on.
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No, but it's a word.
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I mean, I believe it's a word and I know it's a word. I just feel dumb that I don't know it. So I just wanted to bring it up.
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Essentially, it's not a road that she would normally travel. So we'll say that. And apparently maybe three days before this particular incident, her, you know, as in any kind of evidence, they're going to take her phone and they're going to find. We're going to see where it.
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Now, let me, let me ask you as an attorney. So her parents said, as they were. What's interesting about the parents is they seem to be very much on the same page in their protection of her and what to do. And the mom says, as she said, and it's sitting with the husband and all these people are participating in the doc, including McKenzie. We get to hear from her in like present day, towards the end of it, which I was surprised by, you know, but, you know, at this point, I think they just think any kind of news will help their case. But with her, the mom said, after the cops are asking a few questions, I said, I think we need to have an attorney. Which obviously was the right thing to do. But when the cop said, can we have the Pat. Can we have her phone and the passcode, they both agreed to give the phone and the pass code. As a defense attorney, was that a mistake
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from the parents perspective or from MacKenzie's perspective?
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From a lawyer's perspective, should the parents have handed over the phone or not at that time, or should they waited? Should they said, no, we'll have our attorney turn?
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Oh, yeah, well, I mean, of course, I always feel like, because they didn't know anything and they couldn't imagine was a problem, and obviously their daughter at that point in time was probably unconscious. Although, you know, I think they probably did what any parent would do and, you know, obviously you can get a warrant, so it's not going to take that much. But, you know, and if you said, well, I don't want to do that right now because I want to talk to a lawyer just like anything else, you know, then you're dealing with, you know, public perspective, which is that, or even from a perspective of a police officer, consciousness of guilt.
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I agree with you. At the time, the parents are thinking, this is a horrible accident. I think at that Time, they didn't know about the hundred miles per hour. They didn't know what the hell happened. So they're going to cooperate with the phone. Correct.
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However,
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I think in perspective, had they not gotten the phone, had they looked at them themselves or given it to their own personal attorney prior to them turning it over.
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Right.
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Possibly they could have come up with a better storyline in her defense.
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Well, yeah, because they would have looked at the phone and they would have seen that there might have been some previous interactions with her boyfriend that were maybe indicative of a volatile relationship, which is what comes out, I think as a parent, when your kid is in a car accident and you have no reason to believe that the relationship is anything but a young love relationship. I think they acted appropriately. And quite frankly, I don't think it would have taken off a whole lot. Well, they would have gotten a warrant. Right, they would have gotten a warrant. But at least. And at this point in time, of course, as a parent, even as a defendant, you have no idea what the police officer may or may not have. I mean, at the, at the time, and I'm not sure exactly was this that night that they got the phone or a couple days later. But when the, when they were first just talking to the parents, which I'm assuming was shortly after the shock of being told that their daughter's in an accident and two people that she was driving with are deceased, I mean, they would be thinking my daughter could be responsible for this. But I don't think that there. They thought there was anything on the phone that would lead them to believe that their daughter was delivered was. Yeah, it was deliberate or perpetrator.
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But, you know, one thing they did see, which I first thought, well, that's pretty good evidence, is she had these like fluffy Prada, though I think all of her was fake, which is fine. Well, I hope it was fake. She was very into labely stuff, which says something too. Right. But she had these like, Prada fluffy slippers and that's what she was driving the car in. And one was still on the accelerator. Right. Like, almost like. Did it get stuck?
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Like the little fur on the top of the shoe?
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Like it just showed it like that. Then they said later on when they further investigated. No, that. That didn't hold any merit. But I do think sometimes with women's footwear. Oh, yeah. There's been times where I have felt like, I mean, there's, there's times I have like a high heel shoe. I take off my shoes and I like drive barefoot, which also Makes me feel weird too. Right.
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So it's like you don't have that control.
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Yeah. Like, I think it's like. And it's so a slippery thing. But of course, we know it wouldn't have been stuck for a hundred miles and. And, you know, then they would have seen that the car have. You know, there's been cases where cars have malfunctioned. We know that the car did not malfunction.
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Right.
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So. Okay, so I just want to share
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that part, and I don't think they had enough evidence from the defense perspective to pursue that. But, yes, of course, she would have had to have gotten to 100 miles per hour, probably. But if she realized that she needed to slow down and her foot got stuck that. That, you know, I don't know exactly if that would have shown in a particular car.
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And you still have another foot, though. Correct. You still have another foot to put your left foot on the brake.
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No, she didn't. Correct. And I mean, we. At least the evidence does seem to indicate was 100 miles per hour for almost five seconds. And when you look at the road, you would think that if she was totally out of control, it wouldn't be just such a straight shoot. She would have maybe gone sideways when she was making a, you know, a curve. Because there's definitely a curve and a turn in the road, nothing sharp. But you would think that if she really had gone completely. If she was literally had had a medical emergency or if she had gone sort of blank, the car would have maybe gone in a different direction. It would have not necessarily gone to such a deliberate location, which apparently was this brick road, brick wall. Excuse me.
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So it. If she eventually gets charged with the murder of two people.
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Right.
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And their defense is that it was an accident, she doesn't remember anything, and it comes out in the trial, which. Oh, by the way, she doesn't do a trial. She has a choice of either a. I mean, she has a choice of either a jury trial or a judge, which I guess in a couple states, Ohio being one of them, you can make that decision.
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You can actually make that decision in California. Oh, you can. Oh, you can always waive your right to a jury trial. It's very, very rarely happens. There's very few reasons to do that.
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Do you think it was wise that she waived her right and did the judge.
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Well, obviously not in retrospect, but I
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can tell you have ever. Do you. Did you. Have you ever had a case where someone chose to choose?
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Yeah. And you. Yeah, I think in her Particular case from what I understand is that the case was getting a lot of attention and it was getting a lot of attention negative because some of her behavior after this happened was causing people concern that she wasn't acting like a person that was mourning or remorseful for her actions. Would. Would act.
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Let's go through a couple things that was getting scrutinized.
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Okay. Well apparently she had quite the tick tock following. She had quite. She just quite a social media presence. Well that apparently did not change like at all. And kind of to the point slow down. Didn't slow down. And kind of to the point where some of the things she did. I believe there was about this happened in July by October and I'm glad she was healthy by October. But she was going to Halloween and she was dressing in maybe a Halloween costume and having a good time. That looked like a corpse.
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Yeah, like sexy, like scary makeup but like in a sexy outfit.
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I think they were like that's core
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that you know you're dressing like a corpse now. Her friend who is also the TikTok person said no, this was based on the makeup of this one particular party, Cardi guy, singer guy that we were emulating his makeup which is kind of
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a corpsey but almost looks like a dark version of like the joker. That was kind of what I saw.
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And as someone my age, I follow a lot of people. I'm into TikTok and stuff but even I when they showed the part of the court where they showed a tick tock of her singing to a song that's like I'm a girl you would die for. I did we like both like audibly gas like. But then her TikTok friend explained that this was a trend and you know, hundreds of thousands of people did a tick tock lip sync to this particular song.
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And it was also. It was also done a year earlier.
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Right.
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So obviously if she had put that out there after the fact or even just remotely like weeks before, I think that would have a lot more power than a year before. But I think at that particular point in time people started just re looking at her and kind of looking her as someone who you know, really kind of just cared about herself. So you start to see sort of a narcissistic personality kind of come out. Then they're not remorseful afterwards doing really things that are very. Not just immature but completely not self aware kind of almost evil in a certain sense, really uncaring.
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Right?
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You know, so the. Every girl is like that. Every girl is showing off their body and being sexy and dancing alone in their room. And it doesn't mean anything.
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Right?
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It's like the Same thing of, like, when, you know, we brought up the sex when we were watching this story of the sex tape with the Tommy Lee and Pamela Lee. And by, like, the third episode of that, Drake and Brandon were like, who cares? Why is she so upset? Because they're growing up in a place where women put their sexuality out there all the time, and it's not a big deal.
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Right.
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And so it's the same thing. Thing. I kind of think parents that are not in this world see this girl who took their child's life, understandably. But as she's such a vain, you know, person about herself. But, like, that's so many girls. And so one of the things is in trying to be an influencer and is after she. The accident, there was some email that was made into the document or a DM from a brand that she'd reached out to, and they said, we love the outfit on you. We would like to do some business with you. And the mom, because her daughter was, you know, in the hospital, wrote back and was like, oh, Mackenzie would be so excited. I know she's, you know, da, da, da, like, trying to save the deal. Then Mackenzie, when she was well, was like, oh, thank you. I want to do this deal. I've been emailing you for a long time. Okay, so again, right. Are you. Now we're scrutinizing whether you're scrutinizing Erica Kirk. Right. Or Savannah Guthrie, whose mother's still missing. But then she's like, I have a big announcement. They're like. We're like, did you find your mom? No, I'm gonna host wordle on. On ABC or whatever network she's on, which is like, you know, a new game show.
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But, like, the idea is, like, how long.
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She has every right to. Right. She has every right to work. So does Erica Kirk. I get it. I also get the criticism. You know, how. How for some people it's okay, and for others it's not. She answered a dm, you know, like, she answered a DM to save a deal. Well, I don't know.
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I don't think it was just the answering the DM or just dressing up in weird costumes three months later. I think it was a litany of various different things. And that when you put it all together, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to anybody based on what had happened. Now she's 17. She was in a traumatic accident. Her. You know, there was. There's an argument that when you're 17, your brain is obviously not fully developed. You haven't really figured out you're equipped. Your, you know, your remorse code is maybe not quite, you know, what it should be. There's a lot of things. Just the trauma itself of being in an accident. You don't know if there was organic brain damage, which can make you do some very interesting things.
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B
And when teenagers do commit suicide, sometimes it's planned out, sometimes it's not.
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Yeah.
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You know what? Sometimes it isn't overly planned out.
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Yeah, like. Well, obviously, like, overdose, you know, you
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said there was evidence that she had looked at this particular street and. And wall and area.
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Let me go back explain that. Yeah, let me go back to that. Apparently, when they got the phone. And that's part of the evidence. Right. Is that they pinned. Right. We talk about where a phone. Phone can ping, and that would mean that this is where she particularly was at this particular time. It just shows that, like, three days before this, she was spending a lot of time around there looking at this place. Now, the idea would be, why? What is her point of being there? I mean, I use that funny word, traverse. But this isn't a place that she normally goes to. Right. So there was a lot of theories about that. And again, when you kind of look at the technical evidence that's. That's in front of you with the car, and then you show that. That it really is only evident of an intentional act, and then you couple it with kind of bizarre behavior beforehand. And then we have some bizarre behavior ahead of time where there are. There was evidence that before this incident happened, this was a volatile relationship. This was a relationship where. I believe there's a video that was found where she's. She wants her boy. She's yelling at her boyfriend outside the door. She wants her boyfriend to open up the door. Really, the way it reads is, if you don't do this, I'm gonna break in. Essentially, rules don't apply to me. I'm gonna do whatever I'm gonna do because I'm mad, I'm pissed, and I'm gonna make you kind of feel small, which I do think is portrayed pretty well in that video.
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B
It reminded me, okay, so this video that was shared by Dominic's mother, and she was on the stand, and they shared it. So it was on his phone. And I think he may have sent it to his mom or they got it from his phone. He's filming it because as the man, he. And she's skinny and smaller than he. I think it was really smart. He's protecting himself. It reminded me a Lot of the Taylor, Frankie, Paul of Secret I'm Mormon Wives. Where you see Dakota, love him or hate him or whatever. He was filming it to protect himself. She was throwing barstools at him. He was like, stop it. And she's just like, too bad you're gonna take it. And, you know, she calls him a little. A little open the door. And no, this is. It's my way of the highway. It's not up. And he's like, I'm not letting you in when you're acting like this. Because probably he knew that she would probably could do something crazy and blame him for something physical.
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Right?
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Not. Or maybe. Maybe he was physically hit by her a few times. We don't know. Right? She let the world know that he did get caught cheating once, but she stayed with him. The parents. This one interview with the parents that they did, I couldn't believe it. So her. McKinsey's parents are there doing the documentary. And they're like. And he goes, yeah, she'd get in trouble sometimes. And they. The last day of school or something, they want to meet up, pick her up for misbehave, for telling some teacher off, whatever. He's like, I got there and I said, did you do it? And I knew she was lying. And she said, no. And I go, that's good enough for me. Get in the car. And we left. But he knew.
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He didn't believe his daughter.
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He didn't believe his daughter. So he was one of those parents. And we've all seen him. There's three kinds of parents. The ones that are like the m. Anytime you get in trouble, they're like, you're the one that caused the trouble. I believe the teacher. You're a liar. Liar. You're the worst. Right? Why yourself? To up. Okay. Then there's the parent that will never always think their child is right, threaten to sue the school, you know, make a teacher's life hell, and their child doesn't do anything wrong. And then there's the normal parent, which is probably 85% of us. That is kind of like, well, now just wait a minute. You know, I understand. Maybe he was misbehaving. Can we just. Like, I talked to him, and I think there might have been a misunderstanding, whatever the case. Right. In certain things. So there were those parents that she was extremely spoiled. I don't know if she had any siblings. It appeared that she didn't. At least they weren't featured.
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Yeah.
- [30:56]
B
So she's an only girl spoiled. He said the dad goes, yeah, she smokes pot. I smoke weed too. I don't think there's anything wrong with smoking weed. I think it's better than alcohol and you know, and if you're gonna smoke, if you're gonna have any drugs, it's the best of the drugs that you could have. And of course, when they got her phone, there's a lot of video of her hitting bongs all day long.
- [31:21]
A
Well, I think there was also marijuana in her system. But what they were saying is the, the level of the marijuana in her system shouldn't have caused her to drive like that, which obviously marijuana is a depressant. If anything, you more than likely, when you're on marijuana and only marijuana, if you're pulled over, you're usually pulled over for staying at a stoplight too long.
- [31:40]
B
Right.
- [31:41]
A
Driving too slow. It's not too.
- [31:42]
B
I do, I do think there's a lot of evidence. I know Dr. Drew has spoken a lot about it in that for, for some regular weed users, it can really lead to a depression and to suicidal tendencies and things like that that people didn't normally think. They just think it's such like, hey, I'm a happy stoner, right? I don't know, you know, there's other things in it. And it could have definitely affected her state of mind and her mood having that she was on it and it's 5am I mean, she also, if she hadn't slept and now it's 5:30am like we don't know that she didn't take. And she may have not taken a nap at that house.
- [32:22]
A
And I'm not sure to what level they explored it in the trial, but I think I would have really, if I was her defense attorney, really would have explored the idea of long term drug use. Could it lead to a form of psychosis at the end of the lack of sleep, lack of stress, lack of stress just because she was in this relationship and she was maybe stressed about the relationship because, you know, and I would really be looking more deeply and maybe that was done into what happened in those 12 hours beforehand. They're at a party and they're showing that she's smoking pot and. But what, you know, I don't know if there was really enough evidence by saying three days earlier she was, you know, at a scene. I don't think that's good facts, but that it was so pre planned because of course the first thing is if you're really trying, if you're angry at this guy and you don't or you're just so remorseful. You don't care who else is in the car, because obviously we have sort of collateral damage by Mr. Flanagan, who, unfortunately, is the. The child. The adult in the back seat. But I just. I kind of. Just kind of feel like, how could you do this? Not thinking that you would die unless you had led it to a point where your actions were sort of leading to a psychosis which would. Which would make you responsible for the accident, but not necessarily premeditated murder.
- [33:45]
B
Well, I think. Here's the thing, you know, when they hired their attorney, the defense, they decided, we're not going to get into the fact that maybe the boyfriend had taken the wheel, maybe the boyfriend had put his foot on the accelerator. We're not gonna, like, blame the boyfriend, right? Because there was evidence that she had, you know, been like, oh, my God, he just tried to take the wheel, and he was gonna try to kill me while we were driving. And she had text messages to that he. There was also text messages. Wait, hold on.
- [34:17]
A
That was weeks earlier.
- [34:20]
B
Right? So they already had an argument, like, while driving. Whether you want to believe her or not. Right. Maybe she's lying. Maybe she's not. But maybe that did happen where they were driving, and she claimed that he, like, tried to take the wheel and tried to kill her. Another. She'd left voice messages, voice notes for friends after fights, being like, I'm gonna kill him. If I could throw him over this balcony. I would, like, really talking about her hatred for him again, just a really angry girl. Very Taylor, Frankie, Paul, you know, and the parents. Okay, so then getting to the parents, they're like. I think in the defense, they just. They. It's like, as the attorneys, they. They decided it's just going to be what she's always said from the moment she woke up, which I do think is good. I don't remember.
- [35:10]
A
Right.
- [35:11]
B
She didn't change her story. Later on, she woke up in a hospital bed and said, I remember getting in the car and starting to drive, and then I woke up here. So then in the evidence, they have the mother come, Mackenzie's mom, and she says she was diagnosed with pots. Right. P O, T, S, which stands for I forgot the lead, but pots. When I fainted on stage, I had people say, do you think you have pots? Bethany Frankel says, I have pots. It's like a dizziness kind of a thing that can come over and take over. I never fainted since, so I don't think I have it. But I did think, what if. What if I was behind the wheel when I started to feel dizzy.
- [35:57]
A
Right.
- [35:57]
B
Well, I would immediately pull over. Just like when there's times even when you have to sneeze and you're driving, it freaks me out because you have to close your eyes for a second. So, like, I'm kind of like, I don't know what I would do, but I do think they needed stronger evidence for the pots. They needed, like, no evidence for the pot. No, they need. And that. And I figured they didn't have it. That's why, of course, because you would need. If it was me and my daughter, I would. And that really was a case that she. Like, if you had a daughter that had epileptic seizures or something, you would be like, oh, my God, that's what happened. You had an epileptic seizure. There was recently a video that went viral of a boat that was full blast, went straight into the.
- [36:37]
A
Oh, yes.
- [36:38]
B
And they're like, the guy was asleep, had a heart attack, whatever.
- [36:41]
A
Yeah.
- [36:41]
B
So it can happen, right? You know, like, it can happen. And. But it seems like, you know, the. The prosecutor said, like, we didn't know about this. We didn't. They didn't bring an expert.
- [36:53]
A
Right.
- [36:53]
B
And therefore, when it just comes down to the judge, that wasn't enough. But I think I would have really. I would have found any doctor that would have swayed it more into a more believable thing, that she could have been completely out of it for a minute. Right.
- [37:11]
A
I'm assuming that they. Well, first of all, I'm assuming that they had to have something. Had to have something more than the mother just saying that. But they did have some record that said that she was diagnosed. So, you know, obviously, when you're watching a documentary, you're not getting all of the facts, but it would. I would be hard pressed to believe that there wasn't something else presented, because if that was all it was, I don't think mom's testimony should have come in at all about the pots. Because just because you say that your daughter has pots, where's the foundation? Right, right.
- [37:38]
B
And also they're like, yeah, but that still wouldn't have made your foot slam on the gas, I think. Stay down at the gas. You know, like, you would have been, you know, out of it and rolled into a tree or something. But we've, you know, we have seen cars go straight into a. Into a storefront or whatever. And the person wasn't trying to kill people. Sometimes they are, but sometimes they're not. And it really is like they. Well, they just Went out of it for a minute.
- [38:05]
A
Well, I think the problem is, is that the car was going 100 miles per hour for at least five seconds beforehand. It's really right. If she was going 65 even.
- [38:13]
B
Yeah.
- [38:14]
A
Then. And then it went in and people still died because you're going 65 miles per hour in a wall, then I would say, okay. Yeah. Then I would say, okay. This could have been more of a pot situation. Now, I do think. I don't know a lot about pots, but I do think it's kind of one of those diagnosis that's, you know, maybe not black and white. Correct. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Maybe not black and white. So you're going to need a doctor that is well versed in it. You're going to need a doctor that's willing to talk about it. And because it's not black and white, it might be a tough thing for a clinical doctor to actually speak of, because just like, you know, we don't know when. When POTS could happen. If there was a history of her having these episodes, then you would have some sort of documentation, medical documentation. And then you need to have somebody testify as to the times that she actually had those. If they're. Whether it was a doctor or a parent, but something a little bit more concrete. You know, she also didn't take the stand, so you wonder, well, did she not take the stand? Because she had no memory. But you have to kind of get to know this person a little bit better than what was presented by the prosecutor.
- [39:24]
B
So do you think it would have helped had we seen her take the stand and be like, I loved my boyfriend. We fought sometimes. I would have never, ever done this. Like, you needed that moment to just see her, like, cry and be vulnerable and say, you know, like, if it was me, if I was her, I would want to have the opportunity to say, like, I miss him so much. I'm absolutely mortified. I never. Like, I really didn't. I did not. I would have wanted. I still think there's. There could be some thing. But, yeah, without hearing from her and
- [40:02]
A
Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize it and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if
- [40:08]
B
it means sitting front row at a comedy show. Hey, everyone, Check out this guy and his bird.
- [40:13]
A
What is this, your first date?
- [40:14]
B
Oh, no. We help people customize and save on
- [40:17]
A
car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married.
- [40:19]
B
Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [40:21]
A
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [40:23]
B
Anyways, get a quote@libertymutual.com or with your local agent.
- [40:26]
A
Liberty, Liberty. Liberty, Liberty.
- [40:30]
B
And, you know, and just her. Yeah. Her style and everything. So. Also, what I want to think about the parents is, so the boy Dominic, you know, is 20 years old, and she's 17, and they're like, yeah. And they were gonna get married. She was already living with him. Well, I mean, I think the parent. I think she was a pain in the ass. I think she was a spoiled brat. I think she was probably horrible to her parents. She probably threatened them. It was a total little shit throughout since she was 12. And they were happy to get her the fuck out of the house.
- [41:05]
A
Well.
- [41:05]
B
And they were like, go be with a nice boyfriend who's most likely a drug dealer. Okay? Because the dad's like, hey, he wasn't hurting for money, and he had a nice place for them to live. And he showered her with gifts. And the friend's like, yeah, he'd buy her all these, you know, earrings and this and that and design. And he loved designer clothes. But. And he was ambitious. He was thinking about starting his own clothing line. Where are you getting the money today? No one said he, you know, was a manager at the Burger King or he had his real estate license. No, he. I, in my opinion, think he was selling drugs. And she probably was helping him with it. They seemed to have a lot. They had cash when the car. When they found the car. And I think the parents were like,
- [41:46]
A
la, la, la, la, la.
- [41:47]
B
We're just so glad to not have you in our hair. They loved her, but she was a pain in the ass.
- [41:51]
A
Well, I think when you hear some of the phone conversations between mom and her in the jail, what I see is somebody that's. It's not a parent and a child. It's more of a child that became a parent a long time ago. That's what I see. I see a child that she took over. You know what I'm saying?
- [42:08]
B
That's what I'm saying. I think there's parents that are like, right. They're on the same page because they're both being terrorized by their child. Like, but I don't even know.
- [42:15]
A
But I don't even know if it's a terror.
- [42:16]
B
I. I think terrorizing that she's just a pain in the ass. They spoiled her. They don't want her in prison. They do love her. They absolutely do love her. They. They don't want her to spend this time in prison. But, I mean, the mom did go. She Goes, what do you think I'll get mom? And the mom's like, well, I can't imagine you getting anything but the max. And I'm like, God, who would say that the day before sentencing?
- [42:38]
A
Oh, I think it was. Well, because I don't get a rhetoric. Well, because she was there and she goes. And she knew that the rhetoric was against her daughter. I mean, she knew that. So. But what I, what I meant to say is I think these were parents that from the beginning of time, we were permissible parents.
- [42:56]
B
Yes.
- [42:56]
A
I don't think the fact that she maybe became a difficult child later on. I think she became a difficult child possibly later on because the parents were always permissible parents. Yeah, it's hard to be permissible.
- [43:07]
B
Yeah. The parents are probably smoking pot in front of her her whole life. And then when, and who knows, maybe she was providing the parents with pot too, through the boyfriend. And they're just like all like, who cares? At least we're not drinking alcohol. You know, like that kind of attitude. And. Which is fine, but look where you are today. Right.
- [43:25]
A
I think there's a little bit of that. I think honestly, if she was kind of somewhat of an influencer, that then after this incident happened, got brand deals. She probably got brand deals beforehand. She probably was almost, in a certain sense, her lifestyle was probably contributing to the household. So why would the parents put it, put the kibosh on that? I think they were people that kind of allowed her child.
- [43:47]
B
Didn't you say there's like evidence from the research that you did that she was dating this guy when she was like 13 and he was 17 or 18 years old? Because there's a five. Right? Wait, 17 to 20. Sorry, there's a three year age difference.
- [44:06]
A
So he, he, when this incident occurred, when this tragedy happened, he was 20, she was 17. Unfortunately, I could, we could probably look it up, but I don't know what her date of birth was. So. Right. Let's say this is July 2022. She's now 19.
- [44:19]
B
Right.
- [44:19]
A
Or at least when this, this incident, this docu series came out. So you just do the math because they were together for four years. If they were together for four years, then they, he met her when he was 16. Sixteen can be a sophomore or 16 can be a junior. Thirteen can be seventh grade or eighth grade.
- [44:39]
B
Do you remember the movie Thirteen?
- [44:41]
A
Yes.
- [44:42]
B
I mean, there are certain girls, you know, that there. And I remember there was this other movie with Laura Dern that I saw. I was like, oh, my God, it was so good. And she was like a 13 year old that was like, everyone thought she was 16. And she like meets this guy who's like, has his own car and it's just a summer and she just like, wants to be older and meet older people and. And so yeah, and the parents were just like, okay. And I didn't have a problem with it.
- [45:09]
A
Well, I think what happened is you have a kid that's 16, so he's still under 18. He might have been more of a sophomore. The 13 year old girl probably presents us a little bit more sophisticated, which I'm sure she did. And she's 13 and they start to kind of date and the parents kind of like maybe weren't really aware of it, but by the time they were aware of it, she's now a freshman in high school, he's maybe a senior. Not ideal, but not weird yet. And then before you know it, when it does become something that's stat rape, where he's 18 and she's 15 or 16, they've already become an established couple. So now it's a little late for the parents to come in. Unless of course, the relationship goes sour. Like if the relationship truly went sour. I mean, I hate to say this, but if she really now I'm just going off the grid. Giving you another theory. If Mackenzie really hated her boyfriend and wanted to get him back, the better thing would to have done at that point in time, because she's 17, is to just get him arrested, get him, arrest him for doing the obvious, not just stealing, doing the drugs.
- [46:16]
B
We don't know if that's was some of the threats that were there.
- [46:19]
A
Right.
- [46:19]
B
And that made the mom be like, all right, all right, calm down, I'll talk to him. Because she had conversations with his mother. We'll make it okay. Just let this girl get over. Let's just get her to 18.
- [46:33]
A
Well, it's interesting because they talk, they talk about this act, this, this car accident where they also were using it against Mackenzie, right? This. There was apparently a car accident saying, look, she already tried this. She already. They almost got. They got in a car accident and he apparently had said something like, you know, she's trying to hurt me. Or, you know. But then there was text messages that came out later after the trial that says, no, she meaning Mackenzie, was calling Dom's mother and basically texting and saying, he's trying to pull the wheel. What do I do? And then we'll hold on, we'll come and find out what's going on. So, mom, Graham I mean mom of Dom was probably defusing the situation. But all we have is evidence from Mackenzie that could be a self serving tax. Let me just finish my thought. That could be a self serving tax that says, you know, this is what he was doing. But why was that text message or text thread that would have been on her text along with Dom's text. Why was that not presented before the trial? So I think one of the reasons later on we find out that there's an appeal and it's denied. And I think it's denied in part because you don't have a do over. You would have to show that this is new evidence that could not have been presented before the trial. And I don't know why those texts were never presented. Maybe they were presented and her own attorney said this is just self serving texts and this isn't going to help you. But you know, mom of Mackenzie obviously goes, they then this whole vein of her trying to plan or do anything would have gone out the window.
- [48:09]
B
Right. I think that they were aware of those texts. They didn't use it because the only path of defense they were going to is that she was completely out of it in a medical state causing the accident. If they try to go, well, maybe he, like I said, grab the wheel or whatever. That's a whole nother story, right, that you don't even want to bring that in. Because then that makes her original story. What does it matter? Your original story is you don't remember anything. You have pots you, you know.
- [48:42]
A
But they should have brought it in. And I'll tell you why they should have brought it in. Because all you're doing is reasonable doubt. All your job as a defense attorney is, is to do reasonable doubt. So I don't think if they had brought in evidence that he had moved the wheel or whatever and he was causing it would have affected her at all because she doesn't remember. So she can still say that happened. He still could have moved the wheel. The two things could both have happened. So you have to, you have to put in every theory. You cannot rest your laurels on one theory. Nobody can.
- [49:12]
B
So Deon's parents, and it's really sad because Devon, he was the boy in the back. He was, you know, all excited to go to barber school and was, you know, into what his future would be. He was a child of foster care. He and his siblings were all adopted by these parents who were really at 8. Yeah.
- [49:33]
A
So I mean that means he.
- [49:35]
B
And he was doing great. Like he had friends, he had Ambition. He was on the football team in high school, but, like, got injured. He was really doing well. And so the dad is like, I just want her to tell us what happened. Like, I just want to know. Like, was there fighting? Was there.
- [49:53]
A
This was.
- [49:54]
B
Was Debion in the back trying to stop it. Like, because you're thinking you're. Your child's in the back seat seeing you go 100 miles hour, going, stop. You know, there's been times where you've been driving with someone. And I remember Peter and I were with this comedian guy that we knew, and we were going to some party in Westlake from Woodland Hills, and he decided to take these weird roads instead of the freeway. And it was fucking terrifying.
- [50:28]
A
Like, it was so scary because he was going fast.
- [50:30]
B
Yes. Scary whining. And he had. We saw him, like, drinking and stuff before we went worst. And I'm in the middle with a seat belt on. And then there's two people. One of Peter's on either side or something. And then, like, his wife was in the front or. I don't know. And I am just like, this is hell. Like, this is how this hell. So we get to the party, and he's. Peter's like, we are taking an Uber home. There's no way. And I'm like, oh, my God. I go, I. I can't believe you finished. I felt the same way. And I'm like, why didn't we just say something? Adults. Why don't we just say, hey, we're not comfortable.
- [51:09]
A
Right?
- [51:10]
B
But. But meanwhile, we both were both being silent, being polite, right? I. He's like, all I could think about is that you were in the middle, and you would have gone flying through the glass never to have worked again. I'm like, well, thanks,
- [51:23]
A
but the middle is the word.
- [51:25]
B
But I was like, you're. I was like. And that. That was when we kind of had this moment. Like, we are adults. We can't expect to tell our. Have our kids speak up for themselves in a situation like this when we're not even doing it, because we don't want to hurt someone's feelings. And he wasn't fucking Jerry Seinfeld or Kevin Hart driving the car. He wasn't like, my boss or my, like, a career person that had we ended the friendship, never seen him again, we all would have been fine.
- [51:48]
A
Right?
- [51:49]
B
But what we should have done is, like, actually pull over. Like, I'm not. It was terror. I've never been more terrified. And so I just think, yeah. So I. How horrible if you were the kid in the back, and you're being like, what's going on? And they're fighting. She's like, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. Gonna kill you guys all, you know, not even thinking about him. The kid in the back, she's only focused on him and herself. And 100%, she's a complete narcissist. If, in fact, she didn't have pots and put her foot to the pedal and be like, dreaming about something else. If this happened and she did it on purpose, which we're 99% sure she did, she's a narcissist. And there was this other story of these two lesbians that adopted these kids. It's such an interesting long story.
- [52:36]
A
Totally different story, Totally different story.
- [52:39]
B
But they drove, one of the women, drove the van with all the kids over a cliff. One or two of the kids survived. And then they went deep diving on these. These two lesbian moms that were really awful. Like they were grifters. They were acting like they were, like these incredible, you know, parents who adopted kids of color and da, da, da, when they were, like, starving them and doing all this weird shit to the point where one goes, I'm gonna end it all. I mean, a family annihilator, essentially, that's who she was. They're a family. And she was like, annihilating both of them. Murder suicide type of thing, with a car. And, you know, maybe she remembers it, maybe she does it. Now she's in prison.
- [53:25]
A
And. And she. So she's been in prison now, by
- [53:27]
B
the way, three years.
- [53:28]
A
Two to three years.
- [53:29]
B
And like, even to the way her speech has changed, you know, like. Like, she seems a little more, like, tough, like a little, like, gang girly.
- [53:37]
A
Well, you know, it's interesting as we talked earlier, like, you know, look, putting your client on the stand is always, you know, a difficult decision. Sometimes it's. Sometimes it's not, but usually it's a difficult decision because, of course, people might have wanted to hear from her, but the only person that really needed to hear from her was the judge. So to me, because they chose to not have a jury, I think they chose to not have a jury because the evidence towards guilt was very, very technical, all the car stuff. Very, very, very technical. And I think their thoughts were, was that the jury was going to lose and not lose interest, not understand it, not, you know, lose interest. And so they didn't want that. I think the other option was, was the case was getting a Lot of attention. Not good for the. For the. For their client at all. Now, obviously, this is a small town, so. And I'm sure they tried to do it, but they could have done a motion or tried to do a motion for change of venue based on the fact that their client would never get a fair jury. Based on this pool in the small town, I'm assuming they did it. I'm assuming it was denied. So probably for those two main reasons. The last reason I think is I think they knew they had a very tough client to prep because based on the way she presents, she does not present as sympathetic and not at all.
- [54:58]
B
And when she's talking to the documentarian, she's like. He's like, is there anything else? And she's looks over. And of course, they keep this part because the documentarian is also not doing it for you. Okay. They're doing it to make the juiciest hour and a half. And they're like, her attorney was there, as he should be. And she's like, is there anything. She's like, I just want to make sure. I never had any intention, Any intention to harm anyone. I just really, really want to make that. I got that across. Right. Which. Yeah, we know that's the only way you're ever going to get out.
- [55:33]
A
Right.
- [55:34]
B
Even after 15 years. Even if you're going to do 15 years and now you're 32, you're going to have to always stick with that story, in my opinion, to get out in 15 years.
- [55:44]
A
Actually, no, I disagree with that.
- [55:45]
B
Oh, you do?
- [55:46]
A
I disagree with that. I think in order to get out, you actually.
- [55:50]
B
Because she got two. Fifteen year.
- [55:52]
A
Yeah.
- [55:53]
B
Concurrent. And I saw. Meaning she could do it together. So she will be up for parole. They said the first time in 20, 37. Right.
- [56:02]
A
If you go in front of a parole board, even if you have always proclaimed your innocence the entire time, the only way to really get anywhere is to basically fall on your sword and say, I was not in my right mind. I didn't know what I was doing. I was angry. I'm very remorseful. I've changed. I'm going to now be an asset to society.
- [56:21]
B
Yeah, I think she continued to switch to that. Okay, so you first. You're trying to do all the appeals. Right. So once that's exalted. So let's say like in three years. So now you've got. In three years, it's 20, 29. You're like, hey, in eight years, you're gonna be up eight years. You're still hot. You're still only 32. You could still like the sister of the one victim could get married, have kids. Then is it just like get a degree, work on your art, just. And then hope to get, right from the minute, the first day that you go in front of that parole board, then you could maybe change your story.
- [56:56]
A
Yeah, but, but you can't just all of a sudden change your story then. I mean, look what I'm saying.
- [57:00]
B
No, I'm saying then you start to change it. Like the eight years leading up to the parole, that's when you start to say I'm sorry. That's when you write the family a long ass letter. Maybe then that's when you just start because you're like, I just, I need to, I want to be in a place where people realize I've changed. I was a spoiled brat, I did a horrible thing and I feel totally awful.
- [57:23]
A
Well, it has to be a slow metamorphosis. I mean, right now this girl really thinks she's the right. She presents as she's really the. She's done nothing wrong and she thinks she's smarter than everybody else. And that is probably why they didn't put her on because they were never, she was never going to take their advice.
- [57:38]
B
Yeah.
- [57:39]
A
So now she's acting like for the documentary, I'm going to take your advice by saying, I just want to get it across because, because she's finally. What she's been told is this is the only way you're going to get out. That is still unfortunately presenting. So I don't think this documentary really helped her. I think she presents as far, I mean, assuming the appeals are not going to be overturned, and I don't think they are at this point, unless there's some other issue, assuming that her only option is to get out on parole, then she has to become more, not just more likable. But you have to believe her.
- [58:11]
B
Right.
- [58:12]
A
And you have to believe that she's remorseful and truly is going to come to a Jesus moment indicating that she did something that was more than just blacking out. When the judge says, I'm giving you 15 years to life and not the 30 to life because you're going to not get out for a long time is because that's who I see today. And I know that for you to come out around and for parole board to change their mind and let you live in society, you're going to have to change your entire demeanor story and who you are. And I don't see that happening in 15 years. That's what she's saying.
- [58:53]
B
One thing that she will get is several boyfriends that girlfriends may be in prison, but she'll get anything. People to support, money and want to marry her and everything. Just like a gypsy rose or whatever. And she is pretty hot. She's pretty cute. I'm sure she's the cutest girl at the prison.
- [59:13]
A
Well, she has a lot of people that are already supporting her. Now you're seeing that. But it's interesting because I don't know if there was all of that support before the trial. Like, I don't know if it's changing because people just weren't aware of the case. And it was just all the support was against her in the town. Like, you know, and now that it's becoming so national and obviously we have a, you know. Yeah, I, I, you know, and sometimes that does, it's great. That supports it, that helps her. But does it help her feel even more elevated, entitled and unremorseful because she knows she was so wronged? Or is she going to go in the direction I think she should go to get out in 15 years? She needs to go in a different direction.
- [59:56]
B
I think I go back and forth because it is very interesting that she has, like I said, from the moment she opened her eyes, said, I don't remember. And the parents don't want to believe that she would do this on purpose or that she was suicidal or whatever.
- [60:11]
A
Right.
- [60:14]
B
And so they just. It really is. The only way to go is just to just stick with this until you're like five years away from probation. And then maybe you want to, like. Right. I don't know what you would do. Say I have an. I had an epiphany. An epiphany. What do you say? Epiphany or a dream or something. I don't know. But if it really is that you really. Maybe you did black out because you were so enraged. Like, you literally can't remember what you did. Or maybe it was planned out because she went to the site three days prior.
- [60:49]
A
No, I mean, look, I don't.
- [60:51]
B
Drugs and everything else, or maybe, who knows?
- [60:54]
A
No, there's a lot.
- [60:54]
B
Maybe she found out he was cheating earlier that day.
- [60:57]
A
Right.
- [60:58]
B
And was like.
- [60:59]
A
But doesn't remember that because where's the blackout? That's, that's my confusion is like, what is the blackout? Is the black. Because the blackout right at the accident could be completely consistent with just the accident, the trauma. And that could be a blackout even leading up to 5, 10 minutes. Beforehand, when she. Or even. Even less than that, when she's accelerating to such a level. Yeah, I mean, I. Look, everything is. In hindsight now, maybe they should have been looking in different areas more, maybe not. Maybe they're sticking to the story. But I don't think they put her on the stand ultimately because I think she would have been a pretty easy person to cross examine and wouldn't have come off very credible. And now they're in front of this judge. I think what they were hoping with this judge is they were hoping. They were really hoping that the judge, as opposed to a jury, would look at the evidence and not. And see the evidence as. As not being enough for beyond a reasonable doubt. I think they chose the. The legal stand standard and was hoping the legal standard would not rise to the level. And in a certain sense, I think
- [62:10]
B
there's still a lot of doubt. When I think about it, when you think. And. And I think that's why the judge
- [62:15]
A
gave her 15 to 30 and she went to life instead.
- [62:18]
B
And then the. I don't think you're ever getting out.
- [62:21]
A
I was like, I don't think you're ever getting out. Because she knows that she's gonna have to come around on the parole board. That's how I saw it.
- [62:29]
B
But I don't. I mean, I do think, you know, people change a lot.
- [62:32]
A
Sure.
- [62:32]
B
When you're in prison, I still just think.
- [62:37]
A
But I think. But also I think a parole board is gonna be hard for a parole.
- [62:40]
B
I just think there's a lot of doubt. There's a. There's, you know, the premeditation is very circumstantial or. And none at all. The fact that, like everyone at that party, they didn't say they were fighting. They didn't say anything was going down. Right. It is very weird. Like, everyone was chill and like, it wasn't.
- [62:58]
A
Well, that's why I think they're trying to get these things in for an appeal. I had read somewhere that there was a second appeal and that was denied solely because the appeal was filed one day too late. I know, it's awful. Well, it is awful. Kind of a nightmare.
- [63:14]
B
Well, that is on. It's called Crash. It's on Netflix. Also on Netflix was my horrible ex boyfriend or something like my horrible ex. And they did a special on Wade Wilson, who we. So I watched that last night.
- [63:32]
A
Yeah.
- [63:33]
B
Had nightmares about that. We. We can get more into that. But if you remember that episode, it was this guy that just took over on Tick Tock because he's very good looking. And then he did these scary tattoos while he was in prison waiting for his double murder trial, where he basically went on a serial killing spree and killed one girl, then went to his girlfriend's work and attempted to kidnap her and she got away. Then he was driving by this other girl walking home and was like, oh, can you show me where this doshi's walking to work? And he was like, can you show me where this place is? And I guess because he was so cute, she was like, sure, I'll just. He's like, hop in and, you know, I'll take you to work. You can show me. And then right away, you know, she probably realized he's a psychopath, he killed
- [64:21]
A
her, and he was killing really random people. It didn't make sense.
- [64:25]
B
No, he totally decided to be, like, a serial killer that day. And he had attacked previous girlfriends and. And had a boyfriend that he attacked as well, with a knife. But everybody that met him, that became his boyfriend or girlfriend just said he was, like, the best looking thing they'd ever seen. And before he. He's pretty good looking. Before he did the tattoos on the
- [64:48]
A
face, which I can't get past the tattoos.
- [64:50]
B
Well, they show the photos that wooed all the people prior, which was perfect teeth, 6 5, and all the tattoos. And, you know, and this girl just, like, I couldn't believe, like, this guy, you know, and she liked me. And I was like, this is too good to be true. And the next girl came along, and he. And then he never, like, had any money. And then he'd be like, can I come back and, like, live at your house after I cheat on you and whatever. And they'd be like, all right. And then even the. The girl that he killed was a girl, like, he met at a bar that night. And they were like, let's keep partying. And he went back to her place. She probably thought she was just gonna get laid by, like, a total stud. Right? And that was the first person he killed. And anyway, that is on Netflix, and if you remember the story or saw the stuff, it's. It's kind of interesting how they put it together, because I remember I couldn't even remember it. Yeah. Anyway, Shannon, thank you for coming and being part of Juicy Crimes. This was really up your alley, being that it was about a crash and kids and defense for murder and all of that. So thank you for your expertise. And where can they find you? Yellow Flower still where?
- [66:07]
A
I'm michaelgoldstein.net, but I'm on Instagram shannongoldstein and it was really great to be in the studio for the first time. And obviously I am here because I am a mother of a college graduate and I am super duper excited for my son. And it was really nice to be able to celebrate that win with you two.
- [66:27]
B
Yes, baby. Matthew Goldstein graduated from Cal Lutheran University out here in Thousand Oaks, where he finished in four years and was on the tennis team.
- [66:37]
A
Yeah. My mom brag. I love it.
- [66:38]
B
Yeah. Auntie godmother brag as well. Thank you, everyone. Bye Bye. Sam.