The Dark Side Of The Modeling World

Summary

Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald

Episode: The Dark Side Of The Modeling World

Date: November 19, 2025

Host: Heather McDonald
Guest: Barbara Adler, former model

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Overview

This episode explores the “dark side” of the modeling industry through the candid and gripping testimony of Barbara Adler, a former high-profile model. Heather and Barbara delve into the crimes, exploitation, and psychological toll behind the glamour, examining issues like bullying, sexual abuse, human trafficking, blackmail, and the complicity of powerful individuals and agencies. The episode also covers high-profile linked scandals, personal survival stories, and offers cautionary advice to aspiring models.

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Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. Barbara’s Initiation into Modeling

• Early Discovery (01:13 – 01:58):
  • Barbara was discovered at age 10 in Houston by photographer Bruce Weber.
    • “I was in a theater… Bruce Weber discovered me… I was in New York shooting Ralph Lauren as a 10 year old.” – Barbara [01:35]
• Disruption of Childhood/School (02:20 – 02:26):
  • Missed significant school for modeling gigs.
  • Suffered intense bullying and physical attacks from peers due to her modeling career.
    • “Girls were terrible. I was bullied for six years. Jumped.” – Barbara [02:31]

2. The Price of Success: Bullying, Fame, and Sacrifice

• School Bullying & Isolation (04:18 – 06:13):
  • Was targeted, beaten, moved to private school:
    • “They started being mean… I was jumped in the bathroom a few times, beat up. I had black eyes.” – Barbara [05:09]
  • Felt isolated aside from a few close ‘nerdy’ friends.
  • Did not believe herself to be ‘special’—depersonalization in the face of fame.

3. Transition to High Fashion & Industry Pressures

• Navigating the Runway and Iconic Shoots (07:28 – 08:54):
  • Landed the cover of Cosmopolitan at 17; experienced problematic pressure to change her appearance (cutting her virgin hair on set).
    • “Oribe… said, if you want to make it, you need to cut your hair.” – Barbara [08:38]
• Weight and Lifestyle Pressures (09:17 – 10:30):
  • While others starved, Barbara had to eat to meet weight requirements.
  • Faced increasing agency pressure to pose nude, even at age 15.
    • “I also started noticing…the agency, my booker would start pushing me to do certain jobs nude…As 15, I was very uncomfortable.” – Barbara [09:54]

4. Abuse and Exploitation in the Industry

• Sexual Predation by Photographers (11:03 – 13:33):
  • Details of being fondled by renowned photographer Patrick Demarchelier at 15, escaping through a bathroom window.
    • “He started touching my breast, kind of fondling me…So I just crawled out the window at the studio.” – Barbara [12:20]
  • Agency response was indifferent; Barbara was told to return for scheduled bookings, never worked for him again.
    • “I felt like I couldn’t work anymore if I didn’t say yes. So my timeline from 15 to 20 was…a dark time.” – Barbara [14:02]
• Nudity and Coercion Across Big Brands (10:13 – 10:30):
  • Nude or semi-nude shoots were routine requirements, even for mainstream brands like Maybelline and Victoria’s Secret.
    • “You have to do all the editorial jobs…they make you get nude, and they put you in situations where you’re not comfortable in.” – Barbara [10:24]

5. The Yacht and Party Culture

• Model Parties & Sugar Daddy Scenarios (15:10 – 19:00):
  • Models (some underage) were routinely invited to luxury dinners, parties, and yachts with older men—often high up at luxury brands.
    • “They invite you to dinners…uncomfortable and you know what’s going on after the dinners.” – Barbara [15:31]
  • Gifts and luxury items (Chanel bags, cars, apartments) were given in exchange for company and often sexual favors.
  • FBI involvement in reclaiming gifts given by billionaires involved in criminal activity.
    • “A lot of the Victoria’s Secret models…got in trouble. FBI showed up and told them to give all their stuff back.” – Barbara [18:26]

6. The Epstein Connection & Human Trafficking

• First-hand Witness to High-Profile Exploitation (19:16 – 23:44):
  • Attended parties at Jeffrey Epstein’s Manhattan house.
  • Described seeing models subjected to humiliation and blackmail (e.g., defecating on tables for photos).
    • “He had models there defecating on the tables…Terry Richardson was shooting them under the table…Now they’re owned.” – Barbara [19:47 & 20:21]
  • Outlined the MC2 agency pipeline: Eastern European girls brought on visa, isolated, surveilled, and exploited.
    • “They already own you…put me in an apartment and they’re watching me with cameras…That’s how it works.” – Barbara [23:50]
• Agency Fraud, Wage Theft & Systemic Exploitation (24:30 – 26:35):
  • Agencies often withheld money, forced attendance at parties—Barbara had to sue just to be paid.
    • “They never paid me…They gave me a credit card to go shopping with…The accountant got put in jail for embezzlement.” – Barbara [24:33]
  • Switched to a smaller agency focused on catalog work to escape predatory culture.

7. Conspiracies & Theories: Epstein and Elite Complicity

• Epstein’s Fate (28:28 – 30:54):
  • Barbara does not believe Epstein died by suicide; theorizes he was a Mossad/CIA asset who faked his death.
    • “He’s CIA, Mossad agent…I think he’s definitely alive.” – Barbara [28:50]
• Hollywood & High Society Complicity (31:00 – 35:20):
  • Agencies complicit in setting up young models with powerful men.
  • Socializing with Epstein remained common post-conviction; celebrities often rationalized ties.
    • “Everywhere I went there were such underage girls everywhere…celebrities there…it’s a chill party.” – Barbara [33:06]

8. Human Trafficking via Celebrities & The Fate of Friends

• Barbara’s Friend’s Trafficking Story, Naomi Campbell (35:39 – 39:51):
  • Best friend was trafficked by supermodel Naomi Campbell.
    • “She was human trafficked by Naomi Campbell…Naomi brings you to parties, connects you with men…she gets funded.” – Barbara [35:46, 39:26]
  • Cycle of exploitation, drugging, and sexual assault endured by young women.

9. The Business of Fame, Kardashians, and Modern Modeling

• The Mechanics of Power & Honeytrap Strategies (47:43 – 48:30):
  • Discussion of “honeypots”—women used as bait to entrap and blackmail powerful men.
    • “Honey pot is like a Marilyn Monroe…she lures women in for the men.” – Barbara [47:55]
• Media, Fame, and Social Climbing (49:28 – 54:22):
  • Debating the authenticity of celebrity relationships (e.g., Jennifer Lopez & Sean Combs, Kardashians).
  • The Kardashians as an example of leveraging relationships to build a business empire; discussion on why they continue reality TV despite reaching billionaire status.

10. Changes in the Industry: Is it Safer Today?

• Shift in Standards & Protections (57:59 – 61:31):
  • Industry now somewhat safer: more oversight, electronic documentation, fewer “casting couch” situations.
    • “I think now it’s a little bit safer because there’s so many cameras watching you…You shouldn’t be going to [strange auditions].” – Barbara [59:50, 60:07]
• Advice to Aspiring Models (61:31 – 62:01):
  • Importance of education, parental presence, and having support systems.
    • “Always have your parents behind you. People see you in a different light: she’s protected.” – Barbara [61:56]

11. Sexual Coercion’s Link to Contracts and Modeling Work

• Diddy/Sean Combs “After Party” Ultimatum (62:01 – 64:35):
  • Lost contract for Sean John brand after declining to attend the “after party.”
    • “If you stay for the party…I'll renew the contract. I go, I don't roll like that.” – Barbara [63:21]
  • Agent’s complacency in the situation—“Why didn’t you stay?”—spotlights normalcy of coercion.
  • Ultimately, relief for not accepting those terms in light of later scandals.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Exposure:
  “At 10 years old…Bruce Weber discovered me…and the next thing you know, I was in New York shooting Ralph Lauren as a 10 year old.”
  — Barbara Adler [01:35]

• On Bullying:
  “Girls were terrible. I was bullied for six years. Jumped.”
  — Barbara Adler [02:31]

• On Sexual Abuse by a Photographer:
  “He started touching my breast, kind of fondling me…So I just crawled out the window at the studio.”
  — Barbara Adler [12:20]

• On the Industry's Underbelly:
  “My timeline from 15 to 20 was…a dark time.”
  — Barbara Adler [14:02]

• On Blackmail Parties:
  “He had models there defecating on the tables…Terry Richardson was shooting them under the table…Now they’re owned.”
  — Barbara Adler [19:47 & 20:21]

• On Agency Fraud:
  “They gave me a credit card to go shopping with…I had to sue them eventually to try to get all the money they owed me back…The accountant got put in jail for embezzlement.”
  — Barbara Adler [24:33]

• On Honey Trap Schemes:
  “Honey pot is like a Marilyn Monroe…she lures women in for the men. And they have an ulterior motive to…blackmail the man.”
  — Barbara Adler [47:55]

• On Parental Support:
  “Always have your parents behind you. People see you in a different light: she’s protected.”
  — Barbara Adler [61:56]

• On Agency Complicity:
  “The agency would let us know…Hey, so and so is asking about you…The agents must know. They must know.”
  — Barbara Adler [31:29]

• On Turning Down Diddy's Party:
  “If you stay for the party…I'll renew the contract. I go, I don't roll like that.”
  — Barbara Adler [63:21]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:13] – Discovery & Early Modeling
• [04:18 – 06:13] – Bullying at School
• [09:17 – 10:30] – Pressure for Nudity, Industry Standards
• [11:03 – 13:33] – Sexual Misconduct by Photographers
• [15:10 – 19:00] – Yacht Parties, “Yacht Girls” & Gifts
• [19:16 – 23:44] – Epstein’s House, Blackmail Photoshoots, MC2 Trafficking
• [24:30 – 26:35] – Agency Wage Theft & Exploitative Parties
• [28:28 – 30:54] – Epstein’s Fate & Mossad/CIA Theories
• [35:39 – 39:51] – Story of Barbara’s Friend & Naomi Campbell’s Alleged Trafficking
• [47:43 – 48:30] – ‘Honeypots’, Blackmail, The Kardashians as Fame Strategy
• [57:59 – 61:31] – Changes in Safety, Rise of Social Media
• [62:01 – 64:35] – Sean Combs “After Party” Story

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Tone & Final Takeaways

The tone is candid, unvarnished, and at times conspiratorial, with Barbara's testimony underlining both her trauma and resilience. Through their conversation, Heather balances shock, sympathy, humor, and skepticism, providing space for Barbara’s detailed stories while probing the absurdities and heartbreak of the modeling industry.

Big Takeaways:

• The modeling world is rife with exploitation, sexual abuse, and blackmail, often enabled by agencies and connected to broader, high-profile criminal networks.
• Vulnerability is greatest for young, foreign, and unaccompanied models.
• Speaking out and seeking community, legal recourse, and family support are key.
• The glamor of modeling is a smokescreen that hides intense psychological and physical dangers.

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Where to Find Barbara

• Brand: Malibu Cozy (COZEE)
• Instagram: @Ms.BarbaraAdler1

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“Hold your integrity, hold your…They would appreciate you more if you hold your ground. I think you'd be more respected as a person, you know?”
— Barbara Adler [60:08]

Transcript

[A]

The views and opinions expressed in this Juicy Crimes broadcast are those of the individual speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Juicy Scoop, Heather McDonald, its affiliates, the production team or sponsors. Content is provided for general information and entertainment purposes only. Viewer discretion is advised. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I am with my guest Barbara Adler. She is a former model and today we're going to talk a lot of the juicy, unfortunate things and juicy crimes that happened behind the modeling Hollywood International lingerie. Let's get into it. Welcome to Juicy Crimes. So Barbara, tell us a little bit. I mean, you're stunning. Now, you obviously were obviously beautiful your whole life. So where did you grow up and when did you decide to enter the modeling world?

[B]

So I grew up in Texas, in Houston. And I was like around 10 years old where I was discovered by Bruce Weber. And I was in a theater of the under the Stars acting. And we had so many people. I think Jennifer Gardner was in the theater under the Stars and a lot of people from Houston came out from this company and then Bruce Weber discovered me.

[A]

Who's Bruce Weber?

[B]

He is a photographer from Miami, New York, and he works a lot in California, but he's the one who shoots for all the Ralph Lauren campaigns.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And he shoots American Vogue, Harper's Bazaar. Amazing photographer.

[A]

And at 10 years old, was he dealing with kids or he just was like, I know this girl's gonna grow up and be a stunner.

[B]

He basically scouted me, found me and spoke to my mom and said I could connect her with an agency in New York and in Houston and he connected me. And then the next thing you know, I was in New York shooting Ralph Lauren as a 10 year old for kids. And then I branched off to other.

[A]

So did you stop having a regular school career then?

[B]

Yes, pretty much. I was going to school but taking days off to shoot.

[A]

And how did the kids react? Were they. Did they think it was cool or were they mean?

[B]

Girls were terrible. I was bullied for six years. Jumped.

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

I had to switch schools.

[A]

I was so what would they say to you? So they would see that you were in the Ralph Lauren ads and so when did. So when it first happened, did you tell anybody or they started to see it and then they. They started being mean to you.

[B]

They. It started around when I was 13. I was talked about in my town in Houston. I was going on radio shows, I was doing promotions like kids and I was delivering teddy bears. They had Ralph Lauren teddy bears to the hospitals. So I was pretty much out there in the news and everybody was talking about me. So when I hit middle school, that's when the girls started and they thought I was going after their boyfriend. They're like, look at the girl going after my boyfriend. She thinks she's all that because she's a model, that kind of thing. And then I was jumped in the bathroom a few times, beat up. I had black eyes.

[A]

How do you. How is that that you're. Because I've never been in a physical thing. So you're in the bathroom, come behind you and what.

[B]

They just start talking. They're like, what are you doing with my man? What are you doing with my man? And they get up on you, in your face. They started throwing water from the toilet at me like this and they just all jumped me.

[A]

And you were just in a regular.

[B]

Public school at the time in Houston, Texas.

[A]

So then what happened? Your parents then took you out?

[B]

My dad, he. It happened probably like four or five times. And then my dad contacted the Principal, they already knew, but he's had a one on one with him. And then he got the addresses to the girl's parents.

[A]

Did you even. Oh really?

[B]

Yeah. And then he had to talk. And then he took me out of the school and put me in private school.

[A]

And then. I mean, did you even have one girlfriend that would stick by you or. No, they all turned on you?

[B]

No, I had a few. But we were like. We were kind of like the nerds. Like the girl nerds. And those were like the cool girls, right? They were like the cheerleaders. They were like the yearbook staff. Like those girls. I was just, you know, a normal, like the middle. Middle. I wasn't anything special.

[A]

So than that they just to see you like.

[B]

Yeah, but I didn't think anything of myself. I didn't think I'm better or more good looking. I didn't look at. I don't look at people that way. I never have. So I just. I look at people at their accomplishments.

[A]

My sister was just like an average like nerd normal girl. And she got a ton of commercials.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And she. We had an agent, but like she got the commercials. And my sister said, mom, people are asking me how much money I make. And my mom said just turn around and say a lot. And that did not help. That made them really hate her even more. And it was hard, like just. Cause they. Cause you know, they would open the TV and there'd only be so many channels and you'd see my sister doing a Bold 3 commercial and a Tide commercial and a bounty and like. And. And it was like, oh my God, there's Shannon. And it's just so. That's just such a bummer.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Okay, so anyway, moving on. You got away from the mean girls and then did that evolve into you being. So then you didn't pursue college because you were modeling so much?

[B]

I did, I went to go.

[A]

Oh, you did?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I did like Paris or something.

[B]

I did. I. I moved to New York and then I was going to school. I was going back and forth. Texas, Houston. Houston, Texas and New York. And then I was doing school online. I had people that was paying to take notes for me. I was just making it happen. I was studying business, finance and then I was traveling all over and then I landed the COVID of Cosmopolitan and that's what put me over the edge. We could feature it if you'd like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had the COVID and then it.

[A]

What year was that?

[B]

Oh my gosh, I can't remember the year it was like 1999, 1998. And I shot with this famous photographer, Patrick Demarchelier, for the COVID of Cosmo. And that's when they took my hair that day on set was down to here, straight, beautiful, virgin hair. And they cut it to here. And they said, if you cut your hair today, you will be a star. I said, fine, I'll do it. They cut it, they highlighted it, and that was the COVID of the Cosmo shoot. And that's what set off the.

[A]

So you didn't know that you were gonna have the COVID And it's then someone just saying, I just. With your face. Oribe.

[B]

Oribe. He was the hairdresser. Everybody knows Oribe hair products. He was the hairdresser on set. And he said, if you want to make it, you need to cut your hair. And I think that's when, like, Jennifer Aniston and all those people started cutting their hair, that hairstyle.

[A]

And so did that.

[B]

Remember the short, like. Yeah, the Gucci. Everybody wore the Gucci silk long shirt. That was the style then.

[A]

And so. Okay, so then. So then you really. Then you started to take off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when was there, like, tell me, like, some unpleasant situations that happened.

[B]

So during that time frame from 15 to 20, were the years where it was tough for me, mentally, physically. They wanted you a certain weight, certain shape. I never had problems with modeling with my weight. I've always been underweight, so I've always had to work on my weight to keep up, increase my calories. I always had to watch it. So I was not in a lot of agreeance with the other girls. The other girls would drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, and just have an apple for the day. That didn't work for me because I didn't feel good. So I also started noticing the agency, my booker would start pushing me to do certain jobs nude, naked shooting with certain photographers. As 15, I was very uncomfortable.

[A]

While you're only still only 15, how nude did you have to get Nude? What was it for?

[B]

I shot for Victoria's Secret, for Maybelline, for whoever it was, I was shooting nudes.

[A]

How are you shooting for Maybelline Nude?

[B]

So Maybelline, they would have, like, you do, like. I would do the body lotion, and you would just cover like this. But you would be on set nude.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you're a 15 year old. So you. You want to do the job, you want to experience the job, and you want to get the big jobs. But in order to get those big jobs like Maybelline and all the big Commercial ads. You have to do all the editorial jobs. So you have to go to Europe and shoot all these different kind of jobs with different photographers. And they make you get nude, and they put you in situations where you're not comfortable in. I've crawled out of hotel rooms. I've crawled out of.

[A]

Tell me about that. How did that happen?

[B]

So I was shooting with Patrick Demarchelier in New York, and it was for Elle magazine. And after the shoot, he said, hey, baby, we can shoot a little. You know, you could update your book, your portfolio. We can update your portfolio. We can shoot some headshots. I know what you need. I said, okay, fine.

[A]

Now, how old are you now this point?

[B]

15. Okay, so.

[A]

And are you, like, living in a model house with.

[B]

No.

[A]

A chaperone?

[B]

Where are you? No, I was already established making money. I had my own apartment.

[A]

Yeah, at 15, you lived by yourself, and your parents didn't think that was, like, scary?

[B]

No, because my mom would travel with me. She was basically my manager. And my mom traveled with me all the time. So they knew I wasn't that available. But when I went to Europe and when I was in New York by myself, that's when things started.

[A]

Okay, so this guy goes, come to the hotel.

[B]

Yes. So we were at the studio, a beautiful studio. And then everybody left the set, and we started shooting Elle magazine. The. The people that were there for Elle, they are gone. So we're on our own time. There's no one there. Just he and I. He started touching my breast, kind of fondling me, turning me in certain situations.

[A]

And how old is he?

[B]

50, 60? And I was starting to sweat. And he goes, go to the bathroom. Go fix yourself. Go update yourself. You're sweating. You're making the shoot look terrible. I was like, oh, my God. So I just crawled out the window at the studio. Pier 59 in New York. And I left.

[A]

What was outside the window?

[B]

It was just ground. Like, there was a window like this. Cause we were on the first floor, so it was just the cement ground.

[A]

From the bathroom?

[B]

From the bathroom, there was a open window. And then I went around, and in the front, there's taxis in front of Pier 59. And I jumped in the cab, and I went to my. My apartment, and I told my mom, I'm coming home for the weekend. I didn't tell her what happened. So I got on a plane, I flew to Houston. And then my agency called my mom while I was in the air and said, barbara just left the set of Elle magazine and she flew On a plane. She needs to come back. She has a job tomorrow. And then when I landed, my mom picked me up. She goes, what happened? I said, I was fondled. He molested me on set. He touched my breast. And it's for Elle magazine. They said, if I don't come back, I'm never gonna work for him again. And it was those type of situations.

[A]

So then what happened?

[B]

I never worked for him again. And my agency made me come back. And I went to another job the next day.

[A]

Oh, did you ever see him anywhere else?

[B]

Yes, I saw him so many times, and he acted like nothing happened.

[A]

Maybe he didn't really think anything did happen because maybe he got away with it so much and did it so often and that in his brain he was just like, trying to make the best shot.

[B]

But then I saw. I read some articles. I think I started researching. He has a record. People have filed against him, but I think he recently passed away. But there's a statute of limitations. You could. You can file a lawsuit against them, but there's a statute of limitations. It was so long ago.

[A]

Yeah. So then.

[B]

And then I was. I was. I was not available to work for Elle magazine anymore with him because of that situation. Because I crawled out the window and left the set. He called the agency. I said, I completed the job. I finished the job. It was after the job where he was inappropriate. They go, nobody saw anything. I said, yeah, because it was after the job. And so what I want to tell women, whenever you're in this situation, you feel uncomfortable. The first thing you do, just say, thank you. I'm not interested. I want to leave so you don't feel flustered and frustrated. And I felt like I couldn't work anymore if I didn't say yes. So my timeline from 15 to 20 was. It was a dark time.

[A]

What are some other things that happened?

[B]

When I was in Europe, I was shooting the fashion runways and they would invite us to after parties. And it was a lot of These old men, CEOs of big brands like Louis Vuitton, all kinds. And they invite you to dinners and things like that where you're just uncomfortable and you know what's going on after the dinners.

[A]

So you're like 16?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And are you sitting. Is it a sit down dinner?

[B]

Sit down dinners and you have two old dudes? No, no. There's a lot of people. There's like 20 people.

[A]

But it's a big dinner because there's like all these adults and then the models.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And are you. And then you probably can't even eat that much because you have to stay so skinny.

[B]

Yes. You can't even have a good time. And you're wondering, like, oh, I have to meet these people so I could get the big jobs and I'm available.

[A]

Make it like a networking dinner.

[B]

Yes, but they hold the hand of the lady of the models. They'll hold your hand a little too long. Oh, I. I have a beautiful boat in Santa Trope and so. And so's coming. Would you like to join us? Like, they'll say, like, Sean Combs will be there or whoever.

[A]

Oh, God, yeah.

[B]

Well, I saw him there in San Trope doing wild things. But yes. So they.

[A]

Oh, you did?

[B]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

On a boat or just at port?

[B]

He was on a boat and he was the boat next to us. So I. I've been on a few boats, but I refuse to engage. I refuse to engage.

[A]

So then once you get on the boat once and you are not a good time, then. Do you ever get asked back?

[B]

No. And you don't get the Chanel bags. You don't get whatever you want. You know, like a lot of these models, they get invited to these boats and they are given in apartments, they are given cars, they're given a full wardrobe, they're given jobs.

[A]

So when. So you go on the boat. First time, whatever. The yacht. And how is it that. Does the guy just try to flirt with you and then you shut them down enough that they move on to another person? Or how does it happen?

[B]

They. It's. It's kind of like. It's like that they pick and choose who they want to gravitate to. And whatever girl gravitates towards you. That's how it goes. Some. Some girls do, some girls don't. It depends on you if you're available or not.

[A]

And when you went the first time, did you know that I'm probably gonna be expected to do something, but if I say no, I'll just enjoy this one and done time.

[B]

No, I didn't know what. I didn't understand what was going on.

[A]

And was it a day trip or a spend the night?

[B]

It was. They were doing a photo shoot. It was a photo shoot.

[A]

On a yacht?

[B]

Yeah, on the yacht. So it was like a big took off the dock and we would stay all weekend. They would do the shoot, then they would invite their friends, and then they would invite their other friends and then the other.

[A]

Is it just all like older men? Yep.

[B]

And models. That's all it is.

[A]

And some of the models are under 18.

[B]

Yes. But a lot of these girls, like, let me tell you a story. There was this gentleman, he was a Vietnamese billionaire. He gifted all the models, like.

[A]

A.

[B]

Lot of the Victoria's Secret models. He gave them bags and shoes and all this stuff. He got in trouble a few years ago. I forgot what his name was. But all the models had to give all this stuff back. They had to return all the items back. They showed up at their house. The FBI showed up at their house and told them to give all their stuff back. This was big headline news.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. 2019.

[A]

And they just are like, here, here.

[B]

Yeah. Because they are yacht girls.

[A]

And so after doing disgusting shit, they couldn't even keep the Chanel bag. Yeah.

[B]

After doing that, who knows what they did? Yeah. I am telling you.

[A]

Have you ever talked to a friend that admitted to the disgusting shit that we hear about on the Internet that they supposedly have to do with like going number two and stuff?

[B]

Well, yeah, I was. I been. I've been at those parties. I've been at those events. I went to Epstein's house for events because my. My ex. Boyfriend at the time was producing David Blaine and they.

[A]

The magician.

[B]

The magician. So that we were running with that crew and I was somewhat protected, but I was also.

[A]

What year Was that?

[B]

Around 2002. Until 2005.

[A]

And you went to his house in New York or Where?

[B]

Mm, on 66th Street.

[A]

With all the weird art.

[B]

They had some art and weird things in there, but they had models there defecating on the tables. And if you do things like that, you get. It's kind of like, wait, stop.

[A]

So a party is going on.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And like in the dining room, a girl.

[B]

It wasn't in the dining room. It was like a separate room. He had a lot of rooms in the house, so each rooms would have.

[A]

So you weren't like walking by and seeing somebody like going number two on somebody?

[B]

Not on someone. It was on the table and there was a photographer. Terry Richardson was shooting them under the table.

[A]

Like a glass table.

[B]

Yes. So it's kind of like a blackmail for them to show what they're doing. So they are now owned. So now they're saying, I will do what I need to do if you support me, if you can get me the contracts, you supply me an apartment, you pay for my things. They will do these things.

[A]

The women.

[B]

The women, the girls or whatever. And they are mostly these European models that are here on visas that can't be accounted for. So they're basically disposable.

[A]

I know there have been times in my life where I just feel hopeless. I was in between careers or relationships and I wish I had a therapist that I could go to at that moment. Easily. I didn't have to look up who my insurance took, where to go, where I could find it, where I had to park for it. And that's what I love about Rula. Because finding a therapist is hard enough, but finding one that actually takes your insurance. That's where most online therapy platforms fall short. Many don't work with insurance at all, which means you're stuck paying the full cost out of pocket or paying for an expensive monthly subscription. Rula does things differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, making the average CO pay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. Think about it. You use your insurance benefits to maintain your physical health. Why not do the same for your mental health? Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.com juicycrimes to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support Juicy Crimes and tell them Heather McDonald sent you. That's R-U-L-A.com juicycrimes. You deserve mental healthcare that works with you, not against your budget.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Nespresso Gift Magical mornings with Nespresso Vertuo Pop compact and stylish Virtuop is made to meet every morning coffee craving. From espresso to coffee, hot or iced at the click of a button. And celebrate the season with Nespresso's limited edition coffee flavors. Sweet almond and hibiscus, cinnamon and candied tamarind and festive double espresso. Magic in the making shop the holiday gift collection [e-mail] you know, there was this one girl in 2014 or 13, she was a Russian model. We can look her up. She jumped off a building in New York and she was with the agency I believe Jean Luc and Epstein had owned, which is MC2 models and what they do, all the girls that are not accounted for, they get them over on working visas, they bring them over and then they bring them to the island and then they're not accounted for anymore. You come here on a visa, let's say you're from Ukraine, they bring you over. They would find you in Europe. Jean Luc, he had an agency in Paris and in New York with Epstein, they would bring the girls To New York. And then there they would get them situated, get all their things in order, and then on the weekends they would fly them to the island at their disposable. They would say, it's a modeling shoot or whatnot.

[A]

So. And then. What do you mean? They dispose of them.

[B]

If they use them and abuse them, they basically become theirs, their slaves. So they basically own you. So you're now at their disposal. It's not like you can just go to New York and show up in a modeling agency, say, hey, I want a model. They already own you. You're already signed with their agency, they brought you over, so you're stuck now. So I'm a woman that can barely speak English. I'm brought over by Jean Luc and Epstein, signed with their agency, MC2 Models. I don't know anyone or anything. They put me in their apartment and they're watching me with cameras. What am I to do? I don't know anyone here. That's how it works.

[A]

And then they have these parties and they expect you to like service these men.

[B]

Yes. And I see the women and I am Bulgarian, I'm Eastern European. So I would talk to the other girls and I would ask questions and I'm like, what are you doing? They're like, oh, I'm signed with this agency. So I started understanding what was going on. So I was with Women Modeling Agency in New York, very prestigious agency. They have Kate Moss, Naomi Campbell, Adriana Lima. I had to sue them eventually to try to get all the money they owed me back. They never paid me. They always. They gave me a credit card to go shopping with. And I said, I have to pay my rent, my rent. I have to eat. I need my modeling money. I just did a Pantene commercial for $400,000. I need my money. And the accountant got put in jail for embezzlement. And there was a lot of crazy things going on. So I left Women Agency and then I went to IMG Models. And then it still was pursuing there the same situation. I had to attend these parties. I had to go to different gatherings I didn't want to go to. I just wanted to work and make money. So then I left IMG and I went to Next and I had a sit down meeting with Next Model Management. I said, listen, I just want to make money. I don't want to be famous. I would like to be rich, but I don't want to be famous. Because that's the thing. They say, you're going to be a supermodel. And they promise you all this stuff. And you're working so hard on your portfolio. You're working hard on your body, your mind, your spirit. And then there's this under beast, like this under Valley of a Beast. It's like this beast system. And I'm starting to notice it because I'm going to these events and these parties and. And I said the only way I could beat this is by just working so hard on myself and trying to make money and getting out of this situation of trying to be famous. So I said to my mom, I said, mom, I'm gonna leave this agency. IMG because they seem like they're following the same way women is. They don't really care about you. I'm just gonna stick to advertisement and catalog. So I went to next, and they took care of me.

[A]

And so do you think that some of those supermodels in the 90s, do you think they ever had to do anything? Well, I compromising to get to where they were.

[B]

Yes, A lot of them. I know. I heard. I haven't heard Karen Mulder's story yet, but she has a story, and I would like to hear more about it. But I heard she's just not well right now. She was passed around. Oh, a lot of the girls, a lot of big models like that. I think it started in the mid-90s. I think everything started in the mid-90s around that time. And then with all the East European women, I don't know what they want with us. Like, why are we so. Why are we so wanted? They. They want us for our DNA. They want us for our looks. They want everything. Like, Epstein was also harvesting women for their looks and their DNA. And it was mostly Eastern European women like myself. I just don't know why. Why Eastern European women, you know? I don't know. Maybe you've heard something.

[A]

No, I don't know. I'm just assuming. Just because, you know, Very attractive. I mean, if you're a professional model, then you have a good nose and nice teeth and a good smile. I don't know. Yeah, I remember that whole crazy story about New Mexico. He had the ranch in New Mexico. So since we're on the Epstein thing, what is your theory of what happened to him in prison that day?

[B]

I don't think he committed suicide. I think with all the information we were given now, I think it was false. I think he faked his death. He's worth a lot, a lot of money. He's CIA, Mossad agent. I think they took him out and they sent him back to maybe Israel, I don't know, but he.

[A]

Oh, you think he's alive?

[B]

Yes, I think he's definitely alive. He's worth so much money. He's alive.

[A]

So you think he just gave people money to be alive and escape?

[B]

I think he's so. Excuse me. I think he's so tied in that he's so protected. Like Ghislaine. She's very protected. She's.

[A]

Well, she's not that protective. She's being in prison for the next 20 years.

[B]

I don't think she's in prison anymore. I think when they took her out of Florida, remember, she came out with all those papers and she had to talk with the Congress. She had a meeting with the Congress and the president. I think they removed her. And then Mike Johnson flew to Israel the next week, and then Trump went to Scotland. They went together. I think they dropped her off in Israel. Back to the Mossads, back to the people. Her father's people. Robert Maxwell was her father. He was also Mossad and worked with the CIA. I think they dropped her off.

[A]

What does Mossad mean?

[B]

Mossad is like the CIA. They're the CIA of Israel. And so CIA, Mossad, they're all connected. They're the same, and they work together.

[A]

Oh, well, I thought. I just saw an article that she is trying to, you know, appeal her case again. So there's just like. You think all these people just have body doubles or what?

[B]

I don't know. But they said they took her out of the jail and then they sent her to Texas. I don't think she's in Texas. Texas is a. Is not the center. Florida has the strongest jail. Why would they take her to Texas? I don't think they did that. I think that they took her to Israel, dropped her off, and then Trump went to Scotland, and then they came back or whatever. Whoever did. They all did. They came back to the United States and then they said, forget it. The. The. The documents are sealed and we're not having anything to do with it. I don't know. That's just my opinion, my theory. I don't think she's in a Texas jail.

[A]

When you were, did you ever meet her?

[B]

No, I never even saw her there.

[A]

So the only time you saw Epstein was that one night at the party.

[B]

Where people were shitting? No, I've seen Epstein quite a few times. And Epstein also interviewed a few of my girlfriends to date them. He calls my agency and sets up dates like img. He'll call up img. I wanna meet so and so I wanna have a girlfriend. And a lot of these girls that were my age around at that time, 23, 24, they were looking for husbands, potential husbands.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the agency would let us know. Hey, so and so is asking about you. Are you interested? No. Yes. Maybe. There was this one hockey player, Mike Madonna. Madonna was his last name. He was sending diamond necklaces, flowers, all this stuff to my agency, trying to get a date with me for months and months. And I told my agent, I said, tell him to stop, this is becoming weird. She goes, you don't want the necklace? I'm like, no, you keep it. And so, so he will, he lets the agency know I'm available to meet the models. But I don't think the, the agents must know. They must know.

[A]

Well, I even feel like people, you know, people were socializing it with him after big Hollywood names are socializing with him at his home in New York after he did his, you know, weekend jail in Miami in the early 2000s. And it was like, oh, you know, the defense of all that, again, people can justify anything. Oh, you know, it was, it was, you know, they call them underage girls instead of children, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, oh, somebody he didn't know that they were 15. They lied and said they were whatever they want. However people want to justify that, they want to associate with him. But yeah, I mean, he wasn't a bad looking guy. And I could see someone be like, oh, he's a, you know, financee financier in New York City. And so he was pursuing women that were actual women.

[B]

Come on my jet, we'll go to Florida.

[A]

So they were over 18, those girls we don't know.

[B]

I mean, everywhere I went there was such underage girls everywhere. And you don't think anything of it because there are celebrities there. There are. I mean, I've gone there where there's chill place, it's a chill party. It's not like anything wild or crazy.

[A]

At his house in New York or the island or.

[B]

No, at his house in New York. I've never been to the island. But what I'm saying is if you're going to the island and you're on the flight, why are you going there? For what reason? I don't understand, like what are you going to do there? What are you accomplishing there? Why are you going to the island so many times? For what reason?

[A]

Do you think there was anybody that just like, you know, met him at a party, whatever, and he was like, come to the island Just like any other rich person. And you're like, all right. And then you go and you stay in your suite and, you know, you have dinner and you go home and maybe you didn't see anything. Do you think there's anything possible of that?

[B]

Yeah, it could be. It could be. Why not? I mean, I'm sure there is, but I know that there's maybe on the other side, there's.

[A]

Well, of course, yeah. I mean, we're all thinking the worst stuff. But I'm saying I wonder if, you know.

[B]

Cause Katie Couric said she went to the island and she went to a party there.

[A]

I don't know that she said she went to the island. I think she went to the New York party house. Yeah, so did Chelsea. Oh, I mean, I remember when Chelsea told me she went to it.

[B]

Oh, the house.

[A]

Yeah. And at the table was Woody Allen and his stepdaughter wife. And she told this joke, and I think she said in many interviews, but who knows if she really said it or not, but it's very funny. And she said, oh, I was sitting next to Woody and Soon Yi, and I go, how did you two meet? You know, like, hilarious. But I remember she kind of came, said like, yeah, like, Katie Couric invited me to this thing. And it's like she went, yeah. Without Googling or anything and not really knowing. And it's just a rich person house with Hollywood people having a dinner party. And then, you know, in her defense, and people, you know, people like her and other people will be put on these lists.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of all these people were on the flight logs and they were hanging out. And I'm like, I don't think that's true.

[B]

It's a big mix. Yeah, it's a big mix up a lot of people. But the thing is, you can go to these parties. You go to the events. I've been to those beautiful parties and events. But what happens afterwards? You know, you can stay for a while. You can stay past midnight, and then there's the after party, and maybe those people don't stay there.

[A]

So did you ever have, like, a good friend that, like, really confided in you and tried to get out of this? Yes. And what would their story be?

[B]

Like, so one of my best friends, she's not here today. She was human trafficked by Naomi Campbell. And Naomi is also. Diddy's the godmother. I was gonna say Godfather, because I think Naomi is not a woman.

[A]

You don't?

[B]

No, I don't. I don't think she is a woman. That's just my feeling. I've spoken with her, I think.

[A]

Born a woman, you mean?

[B]

I think she is. Yeah. I don't think she's born as a woman.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So she is the godmother to Diddy's children. My friend was an artist, and she.

[A]

Was, like, a painter.

[B]

Yeah, painter, artist. And her father was big in the music industry, very well known. So she already had her foot in the door. And. And then she and I became friends. We were friends around 15, 16, and she was starting to get her foot in the door in the art world. And she was meeting a lot of big executives, people that owned hotels, like in Miami and this and that. So she started going to all the parties when she's only how old? 16.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And she later started writing a book about an artist called stay high 149. I took the pictures of them both. He was the first graffiti artist in New York City. So she had her name already known she was written in. And everybody started talking as, like, a.

[A]

Child prodigy or what?

[B]

Like a child prodigy. Amazing woman. And she was getting older, and she started going to all the parties. She never tried drugs or alcohol, yet. She was very young and innocent. And then she started rolling with the same people I would see at the parties. And I said to her, you need to be really careful. This is dangerous. She goes, yeah, but I just got in the fountain blue. I just did all the collage and the bathroom. I'm hired doing this and that, and I started.

[A]

So even though she was, like a legit artist, she was also a very attractive girl.

[B]

Very attractive. Beautiful, small, petite, beautiful smile, face, hair. I mean, she could have been a model, but she was 5:2, right.

[A]

And back then, you really needed to be.

[B]

You had to be 5, 8 to start. So she started meeting with all these famous people, and they connected her with certain people. And then all of a sudden, she's at these parties and. And I see she's doing drugs and getting out of control. And eventually I had to start rescuing her from parties. And then a few of the times, I had to rescue her from Naomi Campbell's apartment. And Naomi would bring her back, and they would do, like, detoxing therapies just to, like, relax and sleep over. And then I would pick her up and bring her to her apartment because she was so high on drugs.

[A]

What kind of drugs was she doing?

[B]

Everything. She had her. They provide the drugs for you. So she would open her purse, and it would just be everything, whatever you wanted. It was like a Pharmacy.

[A]

Who would open the purse?

[B]

Oh, she would. Oh, she's like, what do you need, Babs? Do you need anything? I said, I don't do anything. Oh, come on. Just smoke a joint with me. I'm like, I'm not smoking anything. I didn't trust her anymore either, with drugs. I didn't trust her at all. What she could have put in there for me, I don't know. Yeah, you know what I mean? She just wanted someone to do drugs with.

[A]

So then what happened to her?

[B]

So she eventually started traveling to Europe. She was dating this CEO of a Jean company that I don't want to name, and he was using her and abusing her and bringing her to parties, and she was getting gang raped by a lot of these older men. And she was stuck in Paris. I was working in London, and I had to go pick her up in Paris and bring her back to. To New York to get her out. She couldn't get out.

[A]

And then when you brought her back to New York, what?

[B]

So she had to go through a detox program, but then she fell off because she met up with Naomi. Naomi knows a lot of these millionaire and billionaire guys, so she connects you to them. She will connect you. Oh, darling, you know, so. And so has the hotel, the fountain Blue in Miami. I'll easily connect you. So they connect you, and then that's it. That's how it starts.

[A]

And what kind of she gets out of it?

[B]

Well, she gets money when you bring. When you bring models or people that can easily be manipulated. You get funded. You get funded. She owns. How does she own an island? Being a supermodel, I didn't know she owns an island. Yeah, she owns an island. Mm. But this is crime scene investigation. But it opens your eyes to things that you never even thought of, you know, And I connect all the dots slowly, but it. It all makes sense. Eventually, we're just. We're just all being used and abused for their. For the sake of their entertainment. They have a lot of money. They're bored. They don't know what else to do. You know, they just look at beautiful women like myself and my friend, and they just look at us like we're just disposable, you know?

[C]

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[A]

So. So then what?

[B]

I don't think. I don't think they would. I never in a million years would have thought Epstein was going to get arrested in my lifetime. When I saw in 2020 he got arrested, I was like, oh, my God, what is going on? I really didn't think this would happen in my lifetime because there's so many people that are connected. It's connected to politics. It's connected to brands. It's connected to even Sean Combs. It's all connected. It's such a big. You really got to pull out to see the whole picture and just educate yourself so that you're careful. I'm the type of person, if I know something about, let's say, Jennifer Lopez. I used to like Jennifer Lopez. I went to her concerts. I paid to see her show in Vegas. The reason why I liked her because she's a boss woman. Beautiful skin, beautiful body. But then I started researching how she made it. How did it. How did she make it? She faked her relationship with Sean Combs. That was fake. Everything about her.

[A]

So they were never a couple.

[B]

No. It was all fake. He's gay. It was just to make a brand. It was a brand. It was just.

[A]

I could see that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I could see her being with somebody, knowing that, you know, it's an opportunity to see her as a singer, give her some edge and not have to be with him. But then obviously that night with the gun and everything, then I think that's when she was like, I'm out.

[B]

I'm out. Yeah, this guy's crazy. Yeah.

[A]

And so then when you heard that, like, go. When you heard that he was. He was arrested and did you follow that trial and what Is your thoughts about him getting four years?

[B]

I followed the trial for a long time, and I was very disappointed in the four year old. And what I'm really scared of now is for Cassie was my friend. I modeled with Cassie for many years, and we were. Remained friends in New York until 2009. Yeah, 2009. She was like, I'm totally committed to music now. He won't even let me affiliate with anyone that's in the modeling industry.

[A]

So in 2009, she was already with.

[B]

Yeah, she was on her way. She got with him in 2007 because she stopped modeling. We stopped going to Dallas together. We were shooting for neiman Marcus and JCPenney's in Dallas, and we would fly from New York to Texas together all the time. And at that time, her mom was with her too. And then she moved to New York and that's when the whole thing started for her. She lived one. She was in a model's apartment one block from me, and she was trying to come up on the modeling industry. She was a little bit on the shorter side, so she was more commercial. So she. It was harder for her. So I think she was looking at other opportunity to expand her brand. So she got into singing. I didn't even know she could sing. She never told me she could sing.

[A]

Well, she wasn't that. Yeah, she wasn't when you heard the song. But what. How do you feel about, you know, the fact that she did get away, that she, you know, did get millions?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Have you spoken to her since?

[B]

I stopped speaking. I reached out to her on Instagram a few times, and she's like, I'm all good. I'm in New York. And then I had her number and it was disconnected. And then she reached out to me. I think it was 2016 on my Instagram. But then that was end of story. I didn't. That was all.

[A]

You didn't want to pick up?

[B]

I don't know. I just. I tried text back and there was nothing.

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's like one random night. She decided to write you?

[B]

Well, I wrote her and then she wrote me. And then.

[A]

And then you said you were a Victoria's Secret model. And so who is the guy that owned it? And then people always wonder if he. What's his name?

[B]

Lex Wexner.

[A]

Is he alive?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

And what. What did you think of him and his relationship with Epstein? Some people felt that they had a romantic relationship that tied them together because he gave so much. Or what was it? He gave so much money to Epstein. Or Epstein was part of his business. What's the story there?

[B]

Yeah, I. From my understanding, is that Lex Wexner gave Epstein the condo on 66th street where we always went for gatherings, which.

[A]

Is worth probably who knows how much now, 100 million or something.

[B]

But why would he give him that condo out of nowhere? Were they lovers? And then he gave him a lot of money because Epstein was a teacher, a school teacher. And then he became a financier. I think he started connecting with these millionaire billionaire accounts, saying he's a financial advisor or whatnot. I mean, if he's CIA, he can do whatever he wants, right?

[A]

You think Epstein is CIA? You do?

[B]

Yeah, I do. And they. A few people have come out, said that he was. Just from my research. Yeah.

[A]

But isn't the whole thing of CIA is you don't know who is CIA?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't. That's why they said. Now they go, he. They.

[A]

People believe that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so then they said, yeah, they.

[B]

Say a few people were stealing.

[A]

Yeah. Like, so, I mean, clearly, like, he didn't have the background to become, like, this finance, you know, hedge fund person. So I always felt, yeah, he would invite people to these parties with beautiful girls. Stuff would happen. This is what I thought. And then the next day, I think you would say, that girl that, you know, gave you a BJ last night was actually only 16.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's the video. Now, I do think you want to reconsider investing 5 million into this. Yeah. Yep.

[B]

Yep. And then they have honey pots there, bringing the girls in.

[A]

Now explain what a honey pot is.

[B]

Honey pot is like a. It's like a Marilyn Monroe, and they try to get all the executive.

[A]

What do you mean, a Marilyn Monroe? Like, that kind of look or that kind of. Just sweetness.

[B]

How sweetness? Like a Marilyn. Beautiful woman, and she lures the women in for the men. And. And they have an ulterior motive to, you know. Do you believe in blackmail the man?

[A]

Do you believe in, like, the honeypot theory where some people are girls or honeypots to actually marry powerful men to get them to another level?

[B]

Yes. 100. Look at the Kardashians.

[A]

What those guys haven't done.

[B]

Well, they bring them. They use the men, like Kanye, all the basketball players to stage their platform. So remember when she was married to Chris Humphries or whatever, the basketball. He was a big basketball player. She was really not even anyone. She just made a sex tape with Ray J. That was her claim to fame. What is she. So why is she so powerful? She rose her Way up from gossip. Doing a porn video with her boyfriend. I don't see anything positive from her. I don't know. Then they formed the Kardashian show with E. Entertainment because she was already exploding with this porn video with Ray J. Now he wants to. Now they're suing Ray J because he's talking. They said that he was paid $5 million from Kris Jenner to keep his mouth shut.

[A]

That's what he's saying now. Yeah, because I know that he. They're suing him for defamation because he said the trafficking thing. I mean, I knew the Kardashians, and I was at E. At the. And there's so much that's been said about that tape. And the tape, I do believe, happened with the intention to become famous for fame. Yeah, but this. Them doing the. The. I know for a fact that the reality show, which. Giving your family reality show is not a ticket to billions, you know, I mean, there was. After that, there was a show with the sisters, you know, called Pretty. It wasn't Pretty Liars, but it was called Pretty. Pretty Wild. And they thought they would be the next Kardashians. And then, you know, there was Sylvester Stallone had his daughters on the show. And, like, sometimes it just doesn't work.

[B]

It doesn't work.

[A]

And it worked. I think it worked because the girls truly have chemistry with each other, and we loved watching them. People are not continuing to buy skims and follow Kim because 17 years ago, they might have watched the tape, which. I've never watched the tape.

[B]

Me neither.

[A]

I think with Kris Humphries, my personal opinion is, yeah, he was cute. She wanted to get married. She wanted to have, you know, kids with him. And then right before the wedding, she realized he was just, like, not that into her and kind of a dick. And he said, famously, no one's gonna care about you in five years. And so luckily, she got out of it. Like, who wants someone like that? I disagree with you. I don't. I think that they. I mean, I think they get excited when. When in the past when someone on a higher publicity level was interested in them. Whether it was. There was a time when, you know, Caitlyn Jenner, when living as Bruce, was doing helicopters with Marc Anthony and Hin Hills, and that was a way to become friends with J. Lo. And that's cool. I mean, people do that, you know. Oh, you're friends with the rich lawyers down the street. Like, that's not, like, unheard of. And then, yeah. And I do think, like, yeah, Chloe jumped Into this marriage with Lamar because he saw her and he pursued her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it turned into an awful. Then it turned into a thing awful where, like, they're doing, you know, awful things and she stayed too long. And then with Kanye, I think that. Yeah, I do think Kanye elevated them to a certain level. But then I also think Kanye is crazy. And I think that she put up with the crazy for a lot of years.

[B]

She probably didn't know what she was. So, I mean, I don't. I don't.

[A]

Yeah, I don't. I don't think. I don't believe that they are doing any kind of trafficking whatever. I think. I don't think Jerry has felt that he was. Whatever his gripe is. He's. I think he feels like his, you know, words and. And the story has been misconstrued. And we'll see what happens with this latest one. I almost feel like them going after him and suing him for this little blip that he said on, like, a TMZ thing. I almost feel like they did that because my personal opinion is we are not talking about them as much, even though they don't need to be talked about. They're now all official, like, billionaires with their businesses, which was the ultimate goal.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Let's do this reality show till we.

[B]

Don'T have to do it anymore.

[A]

But then there's something where I'm like, why are you still doing that? Why you all have kids.

[B]

Why don't you just live your life?

[A]

You don't have to have the cameras in anymore. Like, Courtney was saying. Oh, the people are the kids. Call them the watchers. And, like, why don't you just stop being the Truman Show? And, like, why don't you just, like, let your kids all. Because it's. Have fun. Be rich kids. Go on your private jets. But why are you filming it anymore?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

I think the only reason that they film anymore is because they truly love it. Like, they love the addiction of it. And they. And I mean, I feel like that's my point. Kendall and Kylie are not as into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As like, Kim and Chloe. And. But, yeah, it is interesting that they don't, because then they've been. They made that big announcement. Oh, we're gonna.

[B]

We're so sorry.

[A]

We're saying goodbye to E. We're gonna stop the show. And then, like, two weeks later, they're like, hulu. We're at Hulu. We saw this new show. We just Instead, we're. Instead of Keeping up the Kardashians, just call the Kardashians. I'm like, you just wanted to end that relationship.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

With E and the production company.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like, just say what it is.

[B]

Say what it is.

[A]

But I do kind of. I'm like, oh. I guess I just think they are such in the mode of it that they still just, like, love it. Because I don't feel like people talk about the episodes, and I don't feel like people in the zeitgeist talk about them the way they used to. Yeah, but then they're. But then, I mean, all of their products are doing amazing.

[B]

I know. That's the thing.

[A]

Like, they're like, even Courtney's Lemmy is good. And then good American Chloe.

[B]

Great.

[A]

And now she has protein popcorn and, like, all the skims is a huge, huge. So I'm just like, yeah, why wouldn't you just, like, go enjoy. Let's just be moms, like. And like, it's weird.

[B]

That's what I'm wondering. I'm like, why do you want that so much? But everybody.

[A]

I think people get addicted, you know, to being famous. And the reality show is a different way of being famous than being, like, an actor. Like, with, like, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow. She came from a famous family. She was a very successful actress, but then she built goop, and I think she doesn't have a real desire to act.

[B]

Yeah, she.

[A]

This makes so much money. She likes doing this.

[B]

Yeah. It's beautiful.

[A]

Same with. What's the girl? Jessica Alba, super billionaire. Like, she doesn't. She could act. And people, like, why don't they want to act more? I'm like, acting's fucking hard.

[B]

It's hard.

[A]

It's hard. It's long hours. People don't realize it like that. It's exhausting. And you don't have to do it. And you've done it all. You've won an Oscar. Like, you.

[B]

Once.

[A]

Once. There's a point where you're like, I feel like I've pretty much accomplished a lot. So unless it's, like, really fun or I'm super excited, I don't have to do these awful movies that, like, Randall Emmett produces with these old geezers acting like cops when they're, like, 30 years older than, like, forced retirement age of a cop. And we're like, why are we. Oh, because you're on your fourth family and you have, like, five kids at home. That's why you have to do this cheeseball movie. Like, that's why.

[B]

It'S interesting.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

It's very. It's like, I look at the psychology of it, too, because I'm studying psychology now, just for shits and giggles. I enjoy it. I enjoy, like, Carl Young and Alan Watts. I enjoy looking from afar and stepping back, how things work, you know? And so I commend them as women, like, what they've achieved and what they've accomplished. But I'm also, like. To the point where. When does it stop? Like, especially as a woman, you know, it's like, I'm a mom. I have a brand and my husband and my family. When do you have the time to. You know, you wear so many hats. I wear so many hats in all ways. When is the time for yourself to really connect, like, organically and mentally to what you have? Like, just to sit quiet for a little bit, you know, and enjoy.

[A]

A couple questions before we close. I kind of feel like. Because I also just recently interviewed Jamie King. He's like, a supermodel, beautiful. And talking about it, and I feel like. And then watching some of Paris Week where it's just, like, horribly ugly people, and they actually just. Someone just sent me. Heather, you're right. There's actually an agency of ugly models, really? That just hire.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes. And I'm like, what are these other freaks? Or, like, you know, what mostly, you know, men being the models for women's clothes, whatever. And I'm like, I guess these fashion shows are now just like a weird art piece and not really to be taken back when. That's what I'm seeing. When I see the videos, I'm like, I. This, to me, I'm like, I always thought going to fashion shows would be like, okay, I know some of this stuff is extreme, but I love that, like, long skirts are coming back in or, ooh, I would. If I could afford that blazer, I would buy it. Like, I feel like there's nothing like that. It's all this weird shit.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So I'm like. And then with exposing all this in the last, like, eight years, do you feel like there's a lot less chance of the crimes that happened 20 years ago to vulnerable, beautiful models? Are they less likely to happen today or. Or more or. What's your opinion?

[B]

I feel like people like me and people that are brave and want to be outspoken and want to help other women and men, the men really suffer in the industry. So I give a lot of my.

[A]

Male model to me.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because there is sexual abuse and they are too embarrassed or it's part of the, it's part of the package for them. You either better play or they don't.

[B]

Get paid as much as we do. Let's say I do a job for 20,000, they'll get paid 5. It's just not fair. And I became friends with all of that. I feel like I just want to help. I want to help. Like, I want to help them open their mind to how to, how to help yourself. You don't have to, like, fall into that. Those categories, you know, you don't. Yeah, you don't have. You don't have to give your soul up just to make it, you know.

[A]

And I, I feel like with the rise of social media that you don't, you don't like that. There's so many different ways to, you know. And then someone on the other hand will be like, oh, my God, I can't. Being just a beautiful girl. They won't hire me because I don't have 500,000 followers. And so you have to worry. It's like, you have to work. It's both things. And it's like, gosh, I remember the good old days when I could be plucked from, like, Ohio and be used by gross men. But at least I didn't have to post every day. I don't know, like, someone might be like, why? You know, it's all shitty.

[B]

It is, but it's. I think now it's a little bit safer because there's so many cameras watching you. I think, like now people are not really making you go on these weird auditions. There's no more of that.

[A]

So much stuff is on tape and they can see you in there.

[B]

It's a lot healthier and safer now.

[A]

That's why, like showing up alone in a room for a casting couch situation.

[B]

No. And if you're doing those and you're showing up in these strange places, you shouldn't be going to them. Yeah, I just want to educate people, and especially women. You know, we are already so vulnerable and we want to be our best and do our best, especially in this men's society. It still is, you know, so you want to also be like, open and you want to be nice and polite and you want to help, but if they're putting you in a situation where you're uncomfortable, just say, no, thank you. You don't have to even think twice. Don't feel like it goes in medical, lawyers, doctors, it's in every industry, you know, don't feel like obligated. And the men too if you're hit on by another man, just say no. Hold your integrity, hold your. They will. They would appreciate you more if you hold your ground. I think you'd be more respected as a person, you know? Yeah, I was so young, I didn't know I was saying yes to everything. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then I would be put in these situations, you know, out of nowhere that I didn't expect to be. And then when you're in this situation, you're just like, why did I do that? Why didn't I just say no? And then it's too late. And then you're in a situation, you don't know how to get out of it. How do you get out?

[A]

Right?

[B]

And so I feel before anybody gets into entertainment industry, they need to really, really educate themselves, you know, and always have your parents behind you, always. Because when your parents are behind you, they really, you have a foot forward. People see you in a different light. Like, she's protected. She's not somebody. A girl from Sarasota, Florida, ran away from home. She's 15, 16 years old, wants to model. Okay, easy target. We could take her.

[A]

Right? Okay, so just tell me about. You were working for Sean Combs with the clothing company as a model doing commercials. How did that relationship end?

[B]

So it was July of 2012. I flew from New York to LA on my last commercial shoot with Sean John. That was the name of his brand. And his son Quincy had a, had his clothes developed and he was starting his own clothing brand. So we were all wearing Quincy clothing for the commercial. There was about seven of us models and we all flew from New York to LA and we were there shooting all day. And after the photo shoot, I knew it was the end of my contract. So I put my best foot forward that day on the shoot. I worked very hard. I was on camera, I never complained.

[A]

Because you wanted to renew.

[B]

I wanted to renew my contract. So I had a five year contract. And Sean came up to me after the shoot and he goes, hey, B, I know you're going to stay for the after party here. And I said, no, Sean, I have to fly back to New York. I have a big job. And he said, well, you know, we're going to have the after party, you should stay. I said, well, if you renew my contract, I will say just renew my contract. He goes, no, I'll call the agency. If you stay for the contract, then I'll call the agency.

[A]

You mean if you stay for the party?

[B]

If you stay for the party, I'll Renew the contract. I go, I don't roll like that. And he goes, all right. And then I left. And then the next, I took the red eye back to New York and I landed at 6 o' clock that morning. And then at 9 o', clock, 9:15, my agent called me and said he didn't renew the contract. And I said, it's because I didn't stay for the after party.

[A]

And what did your agent say?

[B]

And she was just like, why didn't you stay? And I said, well, I had my job this morning here.

[A]

But you hadn't heard that the after parties were getting freaky at that point?

[B]

No, I had no idea.

[A]

And were they getting freaky at that point?

[B]

Yes. This was going 2012. Okay, this was 2012.

[A]

So had Cassie been with him in 2012?

[B]

She was at the house, I think. I don't know. I don't know. She could have been at the house that day. I don't know.

[A]

And so do you. So for years, did you regret not staying at the after party?

[B]

No, no, I was very happy. He only paid me $200,000 for five years. I was shooting the next day. A big job for 400,000 one day.

[A]

So if you didn't have that big show, that big job the next day.

[B]

I definitely wouldn't have stayed, though. I don't think.

[A]

You don't think you would have gone to the after party?

[B]

I don't think so. I don't know. I don't think so.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

Well, those boys stayed and they put things in your drink. That's why I never drank. I never drank ever, because I got one night I did somebody put something in my drink, but that's for another episode.

[A]

All right, good.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Well, thank you for so much coming and shedding like such, you know, such a light on the inside of this, like, very glamorous and dark industry. Tell everybody where they can follow you and then also your brand.

[B]

Okay, so I own a brand called Malibu Cozy. C O Z E E. You can find me on Instagram. And then my Instagram handle is Ms. Barbara Atler1.

[A]

Thank you so much. This is great.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

Remember to put. If you have not already subscribed to Juicy Heat Crimes, please do it, Share it with someone. Leave a review. Thank you so much.

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