The Equestrian Nightmare: When Professional Training Becomes Personal Warfare

Summary

Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald

Episode: The Equestrian Nightmare: When Professional Training Becomes Personal Warfare

Date: April 22, 2026
Host: Heather McDonald
Guest: Shannon McDonald Goldstein (Attorney / “Yellow Flower”)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Heather McDonald and her sister, attorney Shannon McDonald Goldstein, dive into the notorious “equestrian nightmare” case: the intense and ultimately violent dispute between Olympic-level dressage trainer Michael Barisone and his student, Lauren Kanarek. The episode explores themes of privileged sports culture, toxic interpersonal dynamics, the weaponization of social media, and the difficulties of addressing escalating disputes within insular communities.

The discussion is both juicy and thoughtful, lacing legal analysis with sibling banter, personal anecdotes, and sharp social commentary, all ahead of the imminent Netflix documentary about the case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Background & Basics

[03:30–06:24]

• Shannon introduces the Lauren Kanarek vs. Michael Barisone case, centering on the Olympic sport of dressage (described humorously by Heather as “prancing of the horses”).
• Timeline: Incident occurred in 2019 at Barisone’s New Jersey training facility, Hawthorne Hill. Lauren was an ambitious competitor (age 37), paired with her fiancé and two horses for intensive training under Barisone (widely respected, elite coach and former Olympian).
• The arrangement included Lauren and her fiancé living in Barisone’s house, a dynamic Shannon and Heather both flag as “unusual” but financially and strategically plausible in niche, high-investment sports like equestrianism.

2. Sport Privilege & Adult Competition

[06:24–08:14]

• Heather and Shannon reflect on the privilege around equestrian sports (“you need an actual horse”), its niche competitiveness, and how adults—even in their 30s or 40s—can reach world-class status, unlike in most Olympic events.
• Heather relates this to stories like Gina Davis competing in Olympic archery at an older age.

3. Breakdown of Trainer-Trainee Relationship

[09:33–11:28]

• Initial harmony quickly unravels as Lauren expects exclusive access to Michael’s coaching, leading to friction with his coaching team (including his girlfriend and another trainer).
• The sisters analyze Lauren’s increasingly possessive mindset and dissatisfaction, hinting at toxic expectations in “star pupil” scenarios. Heather draws a parallel to her own beauty pageant experience (“Miss Tarzana”), where favoritism shifted unexpectedly:

  “I felt like you were telling me, I'm the one... and then I see all these other people.” (Heather, 14:46)

4. Escalation & Claims of Bullying

[19:25–22:20]

• Tensions worsen; Lauren complains of “bullying” and “body shaming,” including claims (seen as dubious by both hosts) about not being fed or cared for properly.
• Lauren’s suspicion extends to placing recording devices in the stables, searching for evidence of mistreatment. Heather finds this irrational:

  “There’s just no way they're gonna, like, not give, you know, Ed the amount of apples he’s entitled to.” (Heather, 24:03)

5. Weaponizing Social Media

[24:10–29:24]

• Lauren moves her grievances public, posting on Facebook in a melodramatic, even fantastical, style—chess games, kings, queens—escalating to explicit accusations: racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism.
• The hosts discuss the real consequences of these posts on Barisone’s reputation in the small, tight-knit equestrian community.
• Shannon reads one post:

  "Everyone should be worried. I’m not responsible for anything my other personalities do when they’re threatened.” (Lauren, [29:13])

• Heather frames these posts as psychologically destabilizing for Barisone:

  “It really, I mean, can f*** with your head… it's a version of gaslighting.” (Heather, 27:37)

6. Home Invasion & Squatter Psychology

[30:24–32:27]

• Barisone is reduced to leaving his own home (with his girlfriend and her child) due to escalating tensions, while Lauren and her fiancé refuse to leave the premises.
• Heather’s Nightmare Scenario:

  “You invite someone to your home and they are such nightmares that you have to leave your home and they're sitting in the home that you own being complete dicks to you.” (Heather, 31:19)

7. Official Inaction & CPS Involvement

[34:30–38:47]

• Law enforcement treat the standoff as a “landlord-tenant” matter, offering no immediate remedy.
• Critical turning point: Child Protective Services (CPS) visits after an anonymous (implied Lauren) report via a sports safety nonprofit, alleging child endangerment or abuse. While claims are unfounded, this devastates Barisone, who feels falsely accused of the “worst thing on earth—hurting a child.”
• Shannon points out how low the burden can be in such cases and how irreparably damaging even an unfounded claim can be.

8. Attempted Murder: The Violent Climax

[38:47–46:01]

• After CPS visits, Barisone, believing his life and reputation are ruined, snaps:
  • He retrieves a gun and shoots Lauren twice in the chest (she survives, thanks partly to medical interventions).
  • Lauren’s fiancé tackles Barisone; police arrest him; both have visible injuries.

9. Temporary Insanity Defense: Legal Breakdown

[42:56–52:45]

• Barisone’s legal team pursues a rare “temporary insanity” defense—arguing social media harassment and false allegations left him a “broken man,” unable to discern right from wrong at the moment of the crime.
• Shannon (attorney) explains the usual impossibility of winning this defense; prosecution counters by arguing his selective amnesia is suspicious.
• Visual Transformation in Trial: Heather notes defendants are often strategically disheveled to underscore their mental state:

  “Look like shit. Don’t shave. ...You want them looking too good?” (Heather, 48:02)

10. The Verdict & Its Consequences

[48:25–54:47]

• The jury finds Barisone not guilty by reason of temporary insanity.

• He is committed to a psychiatric hospital “until deemed safe for society” but is released within a few years, now living with only a stay-away order in place.

• Shannon, on defense strategy:

  “The defense had to really think creatively... legal somersaults.” (Shannon, 53:20)

• Jury Bias: Both hosts speculate that Lauren’s combative, unsympathetic courtroom presence (including admissions of wanting to “destroy his life”) swayed jurors, and because Lauren survived and returned to riding, the outcome felt “less bad.”

11. Aftermath, Media, and Doc Predictions

[54:54–60:47]

• Barisone now has a new girlfriend (also a former client); his prior partner stood by him in testimony, despite ending their relationship.
• Lauren continues to campaign (publicly and with the press) that coverage is unfair and retraumatizing, fearing the Netflix documentary will cement this negative narrative.
• Shannon and Heather speculate that the Netflix doc will “dig into Lauren’s past” and further frame her as unstable or vindictive, with Michael and his current partner as willing participants.
• Reflection on true crime docs as entertainment: Heather criticizes some for being “too long and lazy” but admits they renew public interest and are tailored for bingeable streaming.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the privileged world of equestrian sports:

  “Being an equestrian is such a privileged kind of a sport… horses are very expensive.” (Heather, 06:26)

• On toxic student-teacher dynamics:

  “She wanted his undivided attention… this is a woman who wanted to be his only, not even top dog, but your only.” (Heather, 11:44)

• On weaponizing reputation:

  “By the time you’re 58, you kind of think… this is my reputation. I can rely on it.” (Shannon, 25:51)

• On public shaming through social:

  “Now he’s saying, I don’t even know who’s in my house… is this like a Sybil situation?” (Shannon, 29:19)

• On criminal escalation:

  “My worst nightmare is you invite someone to your home and... you have to leave your home and they’re sitting in the home that you own being complete dicks to you.” (Heather, 31:19)

• On CPS allegations:

  “Even if you’re found innocent, it can really f*** you up, just to even have the claim.” (Heather, 39:27)

• On temporary insanity defense:

  “He hires this attorney who comes up with a very risky defense… Not very winnable.” (Shannon, 42:56)

• On court strategy:

  “Look like shit. Don’t even go out for an hour a day to get sunlight.” (Heather, 48:02)

• On documentary storytelling:

  “A documentary doesn’t… can absolutely be biased. ...it could even be done in a way that someone is setting out to do a lawsuit later.” (Heather, 58:20)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 03:30 | Case Introduction & Setup | | 06:24 | Reflection on Niche, Privileged Olympic Sports | | 09:33 | Trainer-Trainee Relationship Dynamics Collapse | | 19:25 | Bullying Claims & Social Dysfunction | | 24:10 | Social Media Harassment, Fantastical Facebook Posts| | 30:24 | Barisone Leaves His Own Home | | 34:30 | Police Involvement & Landlord/Tenant Limbo | | 35:33 | CPS Visit & False Abuse Allegations | | 38:47 | The Shooting: Crime Breakdown | | 42:56 | Legal Defense: Temporary Insanity Explained | | 48:25 | Jury Verdict & Legal Aftermath | | 54:54 | Barisone’s New Life, Lauren’s Continued Campaign | | 56:36 | Netflix Doc: Predictions & Media Critique | | 62:43 | Reflection on True Crime, Reliving Traumas |

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Final Thoughts

Heather and Shannon approach the case with their characteristic blend of wit, skepticism, and legal rigor. They emphasize the dangers of unchecked accusations, the psychological impact of social media, the unique dynamics of elite insular communities, and the forever-murky intersection of mental health and culpability.

Fans are left with anticipation for the upcoming Netflix documentary and a much deeper understanding of “the juiciest equestrian crime” in recent memory.

Contact Info: Shannon can be found on Instagram and at michaelgoldstein.net for any legal inquiries.

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(End of Summary)

Transcript

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[A]

Hello, and welcome to Juicy Crimes.

[B]

I have your favorite Juicy Crimes yellow

[A]

flower attorney at law, my sister, Shannon McDonald Goldstein. And I am so excited about talking about this case with you because it's like, so up your alley and I have so many questions for you. So welcome back to Juicy Crimes.

[C]

Shannon, thank you so much for having me back. It's been a minute and I really appreciate it. And this is a very interesting case. I'm very excited to talk about it.

[A]

Well, when I first saw it and sent it to you, someone said, this looks good and there's going to be a Netflix documentary on it. But what you found is that there was already a lot of history on it because it happened a few years ago. I think it kind of began around 2017. And it's just such an interesting case and there's so many elements. So what I would like to do is you kind of introduce us to certain things and then I am going to ask questions as we go. But let's get everyone to speed about who these people are and why it's so strange and juicy.

[C]

Sure, of course. So this is the case of Lauren Konerek that starts with a K, Michael, I believe it's pronounced Barasone. Michael Barisone. This is actually a matter that happened in 2019. It involves horses in particularly this Olympic sport of dressage, which is kind of the prancing of the horses, if you are familiar with that. And there, there has been obvious this happened in 2019. So there has been some media on it. But the Netflix documentary is actually gonna be coming out in about, I think

[A]

it's like April 21st or something.

[C]

April 21st. So I think it's really important that we kind of talk about it now. I do think it's a very, very interesting case. Lauren is approximately 37 in 2019. She has been an equestrian and a dressage athlete for quite some time and wants to train with the very best. So she finds herself doing a CL at a place in New Jersey with a man by name of Michael Barison, who's really, his reputation precedes him. He was on the Olympic team. He's always been a fabulous dressage equestrian athlete. But in addition to that, he's known as being one of the best trainers. So if you really want to go the distance in this particular sport, you want to train with Michael Barrison. And apparently Lauren knew that. So Lauren did this clinic. He immediately sees her talent. He goes, yes, why don't you. And she has two horses. Why don't you come to my training facility? He actually has two training facilities, but in this particular training facility is located in New Jersey. And I think he. I believe it's called Hawthorne Hill. And he says, please come, I welcome you. This is my fees, which is approximately $5,000 a month. And. And you can come. And I see a lot of promise. So she comes, and that's sometime around March, but immediately. And I'm not sure why the decision making was done this way, but she has a fiance. His name is Robert Goodwin. And they need a place to stay. And Michael says, come in. I have a home. I live here. I live here with my other trainers. And I'm in a relationship with one of my trainers and her children. But there's an extra bedroom. Please live with us.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And there are other employees. Go ahead.

[A]

Well, this first one, I just. Just step for a second about what I thought was so interesting that it's such, like, an ex. You know, we. Being an equestrian is such a privileged kind of a sport. I mean, you know, basketball, all you need is a hoop and a ball, you know, so a lot of people can play it. But equestrians, you need an actual horse and that horses are very expensive. So, you know, it's a very expensive sport to get into. A very privileged sport to get into. What I thought was interesting about this is that they made this an Olympic sport. What this specific dressage, which is like the prancing, like you said, of the horses, and that someone who's 35 would actually have a chance to win an Olympic medal. I think that is so interesting. Remember when I forgot the name of the actress's name, but all of a sudden she got into archery. She was really tall and she got into archery and, like, went to the olympics at, like, 45. What was her name?

[C]

I know what you're talking about. I definitely.

[A]

Oh, she was in Thelma and Louise. She was the other girl in Thelma. It was Susan Sarandon and her.

[C]

Gina. What's Gina's last name?

[A]

Yeah, she was way late in life and, like, literally went to the Olympics. And I just think that's just such a, like, unusual thing, a cool thing. Why not, right? You know, it's never too late for anything. But, you know, and so, yes, as I was watching and following up on this information on this case, I was like, well, you know, I could kind of see why he said, stay at my house. Because he's still getting 5,000amonth for the training.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

And he was like, well, this could go a long way with this actual person that actually might win because maybe it is such a niche thing and the competition isn't that tough. And I think that she had a family. You see the dad defending her the whole time. Maybe he just felt this could be, you know, in the end, 100 grand for me over the years. And so we have the place and we all get along and she's got a boyfriend and I've got a girlfriend. So I really think to him, it wasn't that strange of an idea. Now, of course, everyone would say you really have to be careful. I mean, one of the things I'm obsessed with in crime is the squatter and the squatter rights and people that stay at your house for a week and then they all of a sudden get one piece of mail sent to them. And now they immediately, at least in California, can say, I live here, I have squatter rights. I'm never going to leave. I mean, the horror stories in California of people not just renting their house to someone, but inviting someone to stay for a month or your couch surfing, and then they realize they're a full grifter now, they then make their life so much hell that the actual owner has to leave. And it's. So that's an interesting aspect that we can talk a little bit more about. But why don't you continue with the trajectory of the timeline?

[C]

Sure. Well, I mean, I definitely think that he saw a lot of promise in her. And, you know, he was a trainer. I mean, he was a coach. This was his passion. So I don't think it was just about the paycheck. I think it was about training people to be Olympic. A medalist, really, quite frankly. And he had a lot of friends that were. That saw him as being the person that could take this to the next level. But I definitely agree. I think there's certain sports that you can do later in life. And I was a little taken aback by the age, too. I was like, oh, 37. When she decided to do this, it was pretty clear. I think she got a horse when she was about 18 in high school. She started doing these amateur events. I'm not really sure exactly what her Life was from 18 to 37. Fortunately, I'm sure that was addressed in the trial, but it really wasn't addressed in what I was able to find. So I'll be curious to see if Netflix does cover some of those issues, because as we go into it, you'll see what I'm talking about. So everything seems to be going pretty well, but somewhere along the line, she's very frustrated because she feels, I guess, that she's picked up her life and her fiance and everything, and she only wants to be trained by Michael. And Michael has a team. He has his girlfriend, who's also another trainer by the name of Mary Haskins Gray, and he also has another trainer by the name of Justin Hardin. So there's a team and then there's employees, too, that he also train and work with the horses. And I guess she really wanted his undivided attention, and she clearly was not getting it. And I think there was definitely an issue that she had with Mary, but I don't think it was an issue with romance. Like, I want to be with Michael Barisone. I think it really was. I don't want to be trained by Mary. I don't think she's what I signed up for. I don't know. And in addition, you know, you're giving her attention because maybe the relationship, but just literally, this is a woman who wanted his undivided attention.

[A]

Wait, I. I also understood it, that there were other people, this one girl in particular that was also being trained by him, and she didn't like that he had other clients.

[C]

I also picked up on. I was a little unclear, but I think it was both. I think it was both an exclusivity.

[A]

Yeah. I don't want your second hand. I don't want the second person training me. And I want to be your only. Not even your top dog, but your only, which I. It is interesting when you've been in that situation where you come in and they're like, you're the best. You're the greatest. You're, you know, whether it's like a singing teacher or music teacher or whatever. And then all of a sudden, someone else comes and you're like, my God, like, why are they getting as much? I should be top dog. And it's like, well, I never promised you that you'd be my only person.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But there's something in that. In your mind where. I don't know. There was a little bit, like, I could. I can't pinpoint of, like, when I have felt a little bit like that, but I feel like I have in my life where I've been like, oh, okay. You know, a shinier new thing comes, and, you know, that's. That's the star. I know what it was. It was the Miss Tarzana contest.

[C]

I don't even know what to say. You thought that you were gonna. Did you have, like, a little person that helped you? Like.

[A]

No, it wasn't a little person. It was an old. It was a. What happened? I just graduated from college, from usc, and mom had. Was friends with this guy. Everyone knew mom and dad, you know, and his name was Ziggy. And Ziggy had a wife who was in charge of the Tarzana Beauty pageant. And she calls up mom, and she knows who I am or whatever. Cause Mom's walking around bragging about us every chance she can get. And she's like, I think your daughter would be perfect for the Miss Tarzana pageant, Which feeds into the Miss California pageant. Like, it was a legit thing. And so mom gets all excited. You know, we've been watching pageants, whatever. And so then I meet with her, and she is like, you're going to win. You're going to win. I'm gonna make that your question. Cause there wasn't a talent. But I did all my impressions. I did my Cher impression, which, by the way, Lisa Kudrow just did in the second episode of the Comeback. She's like, if I could turn back to him, right? That's my Cher.

[C]

So.

[A]

So then I do my Cher impression. She goes, I'm gonna give a. The question for you is gonna be so that you can do the Cher impression. Because there isn't a talent portion. Cause it's the Miss USA Version of Miss California. Anyway, I'm, like, thinking, I'm gonna win. And then at the last minute, this girl who was out to win a pageant, sought out and realized that there was no talent in Tarzana. And she was from Wisconsin. And she fucking flew and parked herself in the 818 and joined the pageant. And then at that point, I realized that Ziggy's wife had turned all her attention to this girl. Did she win? She did.

[C]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[A]

But I didn't react like this guy did to Lauren. Okay, so continue. And by the way, I never made it to the level where I'd get the question asked anyway.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I didn't make it to the top 10.

[C]

But you did feel slighted, I think, is the point. Yeah.

[A]

Like, I felt like you were telling me, I'm the one. She's like, you're gonna win. Like, without a doubt. You're gonna win, so don't even, like, worry about it. And then I see all these other people. When she had to fill the pageant, though, right? She had to fill the pageant. You had to have at least 20 girls who all then got a sponsor to pay for the room at the Woodland Hills Marriott. That shit doesn't come cheap, right?

[C]

No.

[A]

Well, okay, so continue. Go. It's good to know that your career. I was like, heather, we've heard your pageant story before. Shut the f up. Go on.

[C]

And it's also good to know that your career. What, didn't hinge on winning Miss Tarzana? So that's. That's very nice.

[A]

Life. Life's rejection is God's protection.

[C]

Moving on.

[A]

Go.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

You guys, I just saw the trailer for Passenger and we've all taken a road trip, right? You've driven, and then you get in that weird space where maybe you're driving at night, it's dark, and the trailer starts out and this guy's pulled over with his friend and he's just, you know, taking a piss. And oh, my God, the jump scares all of it. It's so scary. And it's like, so creepy because it's kind of like this weird Passenger is a demonic presence.

[B]

And I do like scary movies, especially

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[C]

Try it [e-mail] so Lauren is already starting to not be very happy. And so then it becomes sort of like who's bullying who? I'm gonna call that this kind of thing. So she starts to say that he's asking for money, he's not complying with what he probably suggested, because I highly doubt there was anything in contract that said it was exclusivity. Things start to get a little tense. And they get tense pretty quickly. Like, she moves in, like sometime in March after the clinic, and by June, July, I mean, things have really changed. She's. She's claiming that he's bullying her and, and, and making her fearful and uncomfortable. And he, of course, is saying, this is not what I promised. I. This is very tense. I'm just doing my job. I don't know what's happening. And. But what she does is she takes it beyond that. She takes.

[A]

But I just want to say before you get into that, one of the bullying claims was that he was body shaming the girl was a double extra small.

[C]

Well, maybe. I mean, you can be body shame

[B]

for being too small.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

No, but I just don't believe that. For one, you do want to be smaller, just like a jockey, you know? You know, you don't see a lot of equestrians that are over, you know, 300 pounds because you're on the horse. So she was very petite in that sense, but proportioned. Like, she looks like an equestrian. She's got, you know, a little tiny waist, cute butt. She's wearing the cute outfits. I always, one time, I thought at one point that I would go on to be a late in life equestrian. I thought, I think I can do this. I like the outfits. I live out near where late in life equestrians are doing it. It's also very expensive, but I also have a fear of being a quadriplegic. And I'll never get over Superman. So Christopher Reeve. So I'm like, no, I'm not gonna do it. But I do see why it's an appealing thing for an older, rich woman who likes to wear leggings and boots, which I've always been a fan of. You know, it's a really good look on anyone, really.

[C]

It really is. It's a beautiful look. Just because I just don't believe the

[A]

body shaming on that. I just don't believe it. I don't think you would tell her get smaller or get bigger. I just. It just seems very weird. But then it could have been like a Blake Lively thing where he literally just asked, how much does Blake weigh? Because I have to, in a romantic scene, pick her up for this thing, and I have a bad back and I just want to make sure, like, I can maybe train. And then she got word and she was sensitive because she just had her fourth baby and Then she said, oh, he fat shamed me when that wasn't the case. So it could have been asking about her weight or inquiring about it specifically because your weight plays a role in this particular sport. So I don't know, but.

[C]

Well, I think she wasn't getting. I think she wasn't getting what she thought she wasn't. Was supposed to be getting what she was suggested or promised.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And I have a feeling this is not the first time. If I knew a little bit more history with this woman by the time she came in, age 37, I highly doubt that she hasn't had difficult relationships or. I mean, she kind of explains herself as someone who is incredibly driven and therefore demanding of herself. I think she used a quote of saying, see as far in the. You know, see how far you can go. And then as soon as you get to that point, look farther. So those are the pushing, the driving. I will not give up. And so when she's really not getting her way, she starts to believe that her horses aren't being taken care of, which was part of the fee. She believes. She goes so far as putting recorders in the stable so that the other younger people or older people that he's training, who are kind of working in the stables to take care of the horses, to kind of pay their fee. So there's sort of like an exchange. They notice them, and I don't know what she's hoping to find, that they're either talking about her or that they actually are not feeding the horse properly. Then there's some. Some evidence that was.

[A]

I thought that was a ridiculous claim, right, that. That they. She thought that people were trying to jeopardize her success by taking it out on not feeding the animals. I mean, there's nobody in the horse equestrian world that I believe. I mean, I'm sure there's some weirdo, right, that would purposely want to not feed the animal when their whole job is to care for the horses like that. I just.

[C]

And they all love the horses.

[A]

I was like, there's no way they're gonna, like, not give, you know, Ed the amount of apples he's entitled to. Like, there's just no way.

[C]

Well, I think what's kind of from, you know, the source that I. That I'm basing some of my statements from, what was really most troubling and most telling to me is that somewhere in the middle of this 48 hours, they say that Lauren refuses. She'll talk about what happened on the day, but she won't she'll just, she'll talk about horses, and she won't talk about her relationship with Mr. Barison. Well, then how can you. If you're not gonna talk about it, then you're not really telling your story. So I think what comes out is you hear Michael's story, and you also hear the people that know and love him and what they see, which includes all of his employees. I mean, it's telling when there isn't one person that he's employed or that he knows that believes that he would be doing anything improper or saying anything improper or treating someone improper, or there's nothing. And if there is somebody on Lauren's side, unfortunately, she did not take advantage of being able to bring those people forward. So I don't know, quite frankly, what she's complaining about now. What they have is then she takes to social media. And like I said, this is a very short period of time. Pretty quickly, she's pretty frustrated. And her social media posts, which seem to be centered on a Facebook post, are kind of bizarre. She almost creates this sort of story that's, like, fantastical, like a prince and a queen and a king.

[A]

And it's like a chess game.

[C]

Yeah, like a chess game. But it reads like she's like, you know, in this torture chamber that she can't get out of or something like that. So immediately. And then it becomes a little bit more specific and aggressive to Michael, saying all the things that he is actually doing. Body shaming, bullying. But then it also uses. She calls him, she says he's a racist. She says he's homophobic. I believe she says he's anti Semitic. Really terrible things that are affecting his reputation in the community, which has really been almost perfect thus far. And this is all happening when he's 58 years old. So, you know, by the time I'm 58. By the time you're 58, you kind of think, I've, I've worked hard, I've earned my reputation. This is my reputation. I can rely on it. And I, I, I, I'm secure in my reputation. I mean, I still want to maintain it, but I don't have to go above and beyond who I've already become.

[A]

Well, I think. Let's just talk about that for a little bit. You know, it's very. It's a very cruel thing to do. But I will also say I think it was even worse that it happened five, six years ago. I think more and more that power doesn't hold the power it held five or six Years ago.

[C]

That's interesting.

[A]

And especially to someone who isn't savvy in the. You know, this guy wasn't an influencer. He didn't have a hundred thousand followers and he's being made aware of these horrific things. And I can imagine in the small community there's probably some other small Facebook group or comments or something where people are chiming in and being like, I already.

[B]

I always knew he was an asshole.

[A]

We looked into hiring him. I'm just hypothetical, you know, he reads this, we were looking into hiring him and I heard this and I heard that and he is feeling like there's no way to defend myself.

[B]

I.

[A]

This is so untrue. I don't know what to do. And it really, I mean, can f with your head. It's like, it's definitely like a version of gaslighting kind of a thing where someone knows what they're doing specifically in. In a way to. To make you lose it and go crazy and curl into a ball and not be productive in your life. And I think some people do it not realizing the power they have, but many, and I think she's one of them, do it thinking this will fuck him up. What do you think?

[C]

No, I agree. I mean, I think she. I don't think he had the. He wasn't built that way, I think. And he also says he goes, I'm non confrontational. Obviously she disputes that. She goes, oh, you know, he was confrontational. Some people are not built that way. Not only do they not know the social media, but they don't understand it. And I think it did make him a bit of a shell of a man. I think it, what it did is he may, and I don't know, but he may have had a basis of some sort of paranoia already. Maybe he might have suffered panic attacks. This just took it to a whole nother level. He did not know how to handle it. But she is cool as a cucumber and has no issue and even admits, well, we should get to the. But there is one time where a post comes out and I'm going to read this post because this post really hit me very hard. It says in the post, it says everyone should be worried. I'm not responsible for anything my other personalities do when they're threatened. So now I'm like, you know, I don't. So now he's saying, I don't even know who's in my house. I don't know who I'm taking care of. Is this like a civil situation or Another personality while she's doing these posts,

[A]

which she's not doing anonymously. No, it's not like a Reddit, Anonymous, Big Titty542 or whatever. So he's like seeing her in the kitchen while she's writing these things.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, apparently. And now eventually. And this is where I have some questions. She has a lot. It's just. I don't know, there's something about these posts that she has so much chutzpah because what she literally says after that quote in the same post is, I need to protect all nine people. So she is including the other trainers, the dog, her boyfriend, everybody but Michael, basically saying they're all. She's going to be protecting them. Now we find out later that, you know, they dispute that, but can you imagine if some things like that's put out? I think the way I read that entire post when to compared, because they don't really, you know, they kind of show you the entire post. I read it as he starts. The paranoia even grows because it's not just coming from her, but now maybe she's infiltrating people that are in his circle. And so that's how I read it. And then.

[A]

So that would even add to the paranoia. Like, you're poisoning all these. All these people now believe this and think I'm this bad person.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, correct. So now he makes what I would call a not so great decision. He says that he tells her to leave numerous times and she refuses. She obviously denies that. She says he never asked her to leave. So she remains, even though it's incredibly strained and awkward. So then he takes his girlfriend, fiance, who's one of his trainers, and her name is. I want to make sure I have my names right. Mary Haskins Gray and her two children, or at least one child, because one child's at a summer camp. But she has two children, and they leave their home and they live in the homes in the stables. So they're still on the same grounds, but they're going on the stables. Now at this point, which again is

[A]

my worst nightmare, is that you invite someone to your home and they are such nightmares that you have to leave your home and they're sitting in the home that you own being complete dicks to you.

[C]

So now I almost feel like by doing that, he gave her even more, you know, power, authority to kind of continue to do what she's doing. And he's kind of shaking in his boots and he's concerned about, you know, his girlfriend's child. And you know, but he's still somehow working. Now I don't know if the other trainer was still in the house or if he moved. That's a question I kind of had. Of course the obvious thing is is have you called the police? Have you filed a restraining order? I mean these are things that doesn't matter the states. These are things that you should at least be doing. There's no mention of a restraining order ever being filed. There is mention though of a 911 call, one of four. But that 911 call, and I apologize, the first one is I wanna say July 31st. So it's a while quite frankly, because the incident that we're gonna now talk about happened approximately seven days later.

[B]

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[A]

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[D]

present Obsession when I have a crush

[C]

on a guy no one knows.

[D]

Be careful.

[A]

I wish Nikki love me more than anyone in the entire world.

[D]

Who you wish for obsession is 96 fresh on rotten tomatoes.

[C]

I love you so so so so much.

[D]

It's blood soaked nightmare fuel.

[A]

What kind of spills you put on her.

[D]

You have been warned. Obsession. Rated R. Under 17 on a minute without parent. Only in theaters May 15 with special engagements in Dolby.

[C]

But when he does call 911, they come out, they make a report, they obviously give statements, and they kind of dismiss it as a landlord tenant case.

[A]

You know, which is always the worst because it's like, well, there's nothing we can do. We can't arrest them. We don't know who owns the house. We're not realtors. We're cops. Was anyone hurt? No. Okay. We suggest you go to court and file your complaint. And, you know, that's one of those things. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, and it's kind of interesting, too, that, you know, when you hear from. After the fact, you hear from Mary, but you do hear from some of the employees and some of these other people. If she's really harassing, not just him, but everybody making their job super difficult. You. I'm a little surprised that nobody either convinced him to file it or filed it against themselves. Like, I certainly think Mary could have filed it against herself. So. And that's unfortunate because then what happens? About a week later, they get a visit at the stables by CPS, by a CPS worker on August 7th.

[A]

So about a week later, Michael and the girlfriend.

[C]

Michael and the girlfriend. Now, at this point in time, obviously, when CPS comes to visit, they are concerned that children are at risk. Okay. That's the main reason they come. And so why would they come? Well, apparently in Jersey, there is a. Basically almost a sexual abuse type of thing that can be. There's a sexual abuse. It's called.

[A]

I think it's called Sports Safe.

[C]

Thank you. Sports Safe.

[A]

It's like a charity type of thing that started. So, like, if you're concerned about anything happening with children in the sports world, this is where you could go first. And then they will help you get to the right authorities. That's the way I understood it. Right.

[C]

And I think. And it's. And honestly, it's kind of easy because people can do it. They always can do it anonymously. So people can actually reach out to almost a third source. So unlike in California, you would have to kind of call the CPS office. You could do it anonymously, but you have to call the CPS office. And this way you can just, you know, go online, fill out a form, answer the questions. And it's interesting because in it she really just says, like, more about the bullying toward her body, shaming. But there's one question that says, are you contacting us because you believe that there's abuse, physical or sexual, that involves children. And she answers yes. And that's gonna be an immediate red flag for any department of social services. So they send somebody out there, and this is kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back is the way it's said. He now believes that it becomes true that she did, in fact, is the one that did report this. So now he believes that he's being accused of something that's going to affect his love of his life and her children. Okay.

[A]

And also just being accused of the worst thing on earth, correcting a child.

[C]

And it's a little unclear as to whether the accusation was specific as to sexual abuse. I'll be honest with you. I don't know. But I will tell you that it certainly was the way that he interpreted it. Okay. So at that particular point in time, what is told has happened is he looks as. They're le. They're. They're either. They might even still be on the. And they're discussing. He just goes. He gives his, like, girlfriend a kiss and he goes to this back room and he grabs a gun and he goes to the house and he doesn't really try, just. Just kind of open. Opens the door and he just shoots her. Two shots. I don't even know if there was a. A big discussion or anything like that, but there's two shots. And she does call 911 and she does. She's conscious and lucid and all that good stuff, but she's very, very seriously injured. And I believe the boyfriend is there and he tries to, you know, tackle him. They call 911. There's a police officer, there's witnesses that he did this. There's a gun. There is a statement that he makes at the time saying, I had a device, which I'm assuming means a gun. And he is arrested and she's taken to the hospital. And apparently it's much worse than anybody initially thought. And she's almost. Almost. You know, I think she's.

[A]

She's putting in a coma for her safety.

[C]

Three to four weeks. There's. There's huge. They had to kind of cut open her. Excuse me, her stomach or something. I don't. That. Anyway, so almost the injuries to save her are worse than the injuries that were actually committed by shooting. By her. By him shooting her. So. But anyway.

[A]

Well, I went for. Let me just go back one more thing. I really think the calling of CPS or lying about something like that, it's, you know, something that Tim Boosie. What's his name? The one who's married to Melissa Gilbert.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

In that particular case, they're saying that he never touched these twin boys inappropriately when they were actors on his set. He was the director. And that this is all because the parents are so mad that they. The twin boys were recast.

[C]

Right.

[A]

My understanding, they wanted to keep the child of a certain age. It wasn't a huge part. And maybe the boys were starting to look older, so they just recast him with one child, I think, that was younger, but old enough to work the hours. Something like that. So he thinks that they're lying about. Or this is what they're claiming they're lying about it. I think that it can happen. I do think people lie about things like that. And it is a really weird, sick revenge thing that we've seen happen in crimes mostly with women against women. Like a woman against a woman sometimes where like, I'm gonna get you and I'm gonna say you're mistreating your kids, and I'm gonna lie or whatever. Because anyone knows that even if you're found innocent, it can really fuck you up, like, just to even have the claim. Even to have the claim then, you know, depending on how, you know. Well, some CPS officers ignore people for years, like Poor Little angel, that documentary. But. But other times, you know, it. Maybe your child will be taken away and now you're, like, alone in your house and you've lost your kids and, you know, and then to also be the quote, unquote stepdad, which is usually the perpetrator in the family that might be abusive. It's, oh, this woman brought in this man and she didn't, you know, so I could. So I do think it was, you know, a very bad situation for him to be faced with. And he wasn't in the. This crazy bitch. Now this. We will get through this. We've got to get her evicted. We have to get the right, you know, attorneys involved. Maybe I'll sue her for harassment later. He wasn't in that mindset. He was in, you're setting out to ruin my life, and you're there, right?

[C]

No, he clearly thought it was all about him. No, he thought it was clearly about him. I do believe that people can call Department of Social Services with incorrect allegations, whether it's revengeful or whether they're just incorrect. And that's why the department is obligated to investigate it. And as we find out later, there is no evidence. There's no evidence against Mary, there's no evidence against him, but the damage is done. And you also, you mentioned like detention if that the kids were there and the kids were detained from mom and obviously him. It would have been a situation where the burden is extremely low. So even for a temporary period of time, that might have happened. So the damage is, is done and it's hard to recover from that damage. You know, in those particular cases. I'm not speaking for all cases. I'm talking about these type of cases where.

[A]

No, I do, I do remember in this though, he said the daughter who was part of this interview, still very fond of. No, no, no, sorry. That wasn't the daughter. Never mind. The daughter was at the summer camp or one of the kids at the summer camp, the boy that was living with him and his fiance. When this started to get heated, they had already said, why don't you go spend some time with your biological dad.

[C]

That was very traumatizing to have to even do that. But they did the right thing. I mean, in that world, that is exactly what I would advise my client to do. Take the child out of a situation that is potentially harmful and putting them in harm because it was so strained between these two parties.

[A]

Okay, so get back to the crime. So he literally tried to kill her, shot her twice.

[C]

And it's. And he's charged with attempted murder. It is attempted murder. I mean, I don't think it was overcharged. I mean, he shot her two times in the chest. She's lucky to be alive. That's what the evidence seems to be presenting. So he's obviously taken into jail. I believe he's in jail for almost two and a half hours preparing for this case. There are probably very good attorneys on all sides, but they have. He hires this attorney who comes up with a very risky defense and he comes. And the defense is the defense of temporary insanity. Not very winnable. Doesn't happen very often. Lots to prove, obviously, like self defense, puts the burden on the defense. It's a burden of preponderance of the evidence to basically show that because of some mental defect or, you know, basically a mental defect is that he simply did not know at the time the crime was happening what he was doing, that it was a crime and. Or that it was wrong. Okay. And his. From the beginning of time, his defense, or what he always says is, I don't remember anything. I remember CPS coming and that's all I remember. That's the last thing I remember, which a lot of people would say, well, that's Convenient, right? I just don't remember anything of the crime. So what's interesting is when you ever, whenever you put a defense like this, a psychological defense, the evidence you have to do is to show either history of a mental defect or delusion or et cetera, and. Or a psychiatrist has to evaluate to see what may in fact have happened. So they hire a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist puts on evidence that he believes all of the social media, just the constant barrage of just terrible posts and accusations that ultimately resulted in CPS basically broken his brain and his mind, and he became just a shell of a man. Okay. That even at that time of that incident, he was not who he was months earlier. So that's the mental disease and defect. And that at the time he did not know what he was doing. And he was so broken down by that mental disease or defect, the prosecution obviously has to refute that. So the prosecution gets their own expert, and that expert says, well, interestingly enough, the only thing he doesn't remember, he remembers all the barrage, all the social media, everything he went through, all the stuff that he tried to do up until the last accusation, but he doesn't represent. He doesn't remember the actual crime. Okay, good point. Right. So, but there, what was interesting is when he shot her, he was immediately attacked by the boyfriend, understandably clobbered on the head, totally was like either unconscious. You see a picture of him really beat up, and that could be brain trauma that could compound what was already a mental disease and defect. Kind of brilliant, but definitely a big chance to take that.

[A]

Right?

[C]

So the verdict, you know. Oh, but when they have her on stage.

[A]

First, first. Let me just go back a little bit. One thing that I thought was really interesting when they're going for this, he was, you know, innocent by reason of insanity, temporary insanity of basically snapped. You know, it's like the show snapped. You were not crazy before. Some the circumstances caused you to act out of character and act insane. And then he doesn't remember it. So then they said, you know, and here he is looking, you know, looking like a shell of himself. They go back to showing him with the horses and his face is full and he's smiling and his color now he's gray, his skin is gray, his hair is gray falling out. He has a disheveled beard about him. And that is what I always find so interesting when I talk to you about when you've had to defend people, what it is. And when we've done these crimes about a woman on trial for being a vixen. And having men kill her husband or whatever it is. And I've said, you know, now isn't that interesting that, you know, she now looks all mousy and the lips have fortunately been deflated because she couldn't get a good injector in behind bars. And why that is good. You don't want them looking too good. You don't. And in this particular case, you know, in other cases where maybe it's a. An accused gang member of killing somebody, they get him a nice suit and tie, they try to get the collar to cover his neck tattoo. They shave him. You know, they make sure you're shaved, your fingernails are clean, that you look like this. You know, let this guy out. He could be, you know, having a beautiful life or he isn't a bad person or whatever. And, you know, the Menendez brothers wearing sweaters at 27 to look a little younger, you know, in the second trial, I thought, yeah, they probably was like, look like shit. Don't even go out for an hour a day to get sunlight.

[B]

Look like shit.

[A]

Look crazy. Whether they told him or not. But he was, you know, I'm. I think they specifically said, yeah, don't shake, shave. Don't shave. Well, also, hair and gray facial hair makes you look like a sad sack. And he was acting kind of insane in the, you know, in the, in the courtroom. Whereas, you know, hands on his head,

[C]

you know, where he wasn't acting insane right after. Hours later.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Verdict. When he.

[A]

So tell the verdict. Let's get to the verdict.

[C]

Okay, so it. He is a he, and this is how it is. He's acquitted by reason of temporary insanity. So what does that mean? That means that he has found that based on that ruling, disease and defect, and that he did not know what he was doing, that they were able to prove that by preponderance. The evidence not saying that the event didn't happen. You can't contest the fact that the event did not happen. It's just that he is not responsible for that event and he is acquitted. So what does that mean? Does he get out? No, he goes to a psychiatric hospital and he's. How long is he in that psychiatric hospital? He is in that psychiatric hospital until after sufficient treatment and testing, he. A board determines that he is safe in society.

[A]

Well, I just want to stop for a second. I also thought that was great work on the prosecutor, though it didn't work to say, yeah, the head trauma could have stopped. You know, where people say, I only remember, you know, sometimes people say, I don't remember the car accident. I don't remember the thing because I had trauma. When I fainted on my head, I remembered everything up until the point of fainting. But if I didn't, that would make. That would go along with this. If I was like, well, I remember saying, how's everyone doing tonight? And then I don't remember anything. You know, like, it would. It's almost like that, like, just like a five minutes before it happening is kind of like where you don't remember it. I do think something like this is just a really subjective thing, no matter what kind of doctor you are, because it's the brain, and it's not like, oh, well, if you break your leg here, you know, you're gonna need a cast for six months. Every orthopedic surgeon would agree. Okay, you need. You know what I mean? It's like a medical thing that is, I think, quite subjective.

[C]

It was the defense argument to say that he didn't remember, to refute the prosecution's argument, which I thought was good, was, isn't it convenient that the only thing that he doesn't remember is the crime? Because, look, when you're dealing with defenses of temporary insanity or permanent insanity or mitigation on what the defendant is gonna say, you know, a lot of it is, is this manipulated? You know, when the forensic psychiatrist or psychologist comes in and interviews you, one of the first things they say is, is this. This guy, you know, an expert manipulator? Is he piece of shit bullshit because he's a defendant? Or is there really possibly, you know, a mental disease or defect that happened here that really caused him to grow to this point? And their argument was this social media, real and in live person, slowly chipping out down, that this man broke him down, broke him down, caused that effect. And a lot of times, and I agree, when you say, like, somewhat subjective, you're following the law, and I'm telling you what the law is. But this victim, this woman did not. This is not a likable witness.

[A]

No, I mean, I think everybody was like. I think that when the jury got behind, they were just like, I'd fucking want to shoot her, too. And because she lived, you know, I always say that, too. It's always interesting that, like, attempted murder, you know, carries such a lighter sentence. I'm like, so just because you weren't successful, I mean, no, he was facing

[C]

up to 80 years. This is very, very, very, very serious, right? I mean, not as serious as, you know, life without the possibility of parole

[A]

for a jury that is, you know, spec is talking about it behind doors after watching it, seeing her, she didn't roll up in a wheelchair, you know. Yes, we saw photos of her, you know, obviously in a lot of distress and pain and lost a period of her life by having to recover. She can still ride horses. She still looks good in the riding pants. She still looks good. You know, it's not like, you know, Mary Jo Buttafuoco, whose face was off for the rest of her life. You know what I mean? I, all of that plays into it, does, deciding that yes, she is a victim, but she was a fucking bitch and it wasn't that bad in the end. And, and everyone's on the other hand, like you said, saying such exemplary things about the way he'd lived his life up to this point.

[C]

Right, yeah, no, and I, and I, and you know, she, you know, she admits on the stand, I am, I, yeah, I wanted to destroy his life someday because he really pissed me off off.

[A]

When they did, remember, they find that other thing that said that this, her plan was working, that it was absolutely a calculated plan to get it, that he had no career in the end.

[C]

And she admits it on the stand, does not deny it, shows zero remorse. She's the victim, not him. You know, probably was told, you know, and I agree, if I was a prosecutor, I would say look as bad as this is, as bad as she treated him or, you know, know, on social media, she. That doesn't mean that she deserved to be shot twice and almost killed. I mean, but other than that, what do you have? And, but I, at the same time, I agree that the defense had to really think creatively, really do some, you know, legal, you know, somersaults is what we kind of call to, to allow the jury to make this verdict still and was still withstand the, you know, what the law is. So I think everybody, you know, did the best they could in the, in the circumstances. But I understand. But what's interesting now, since this has happened, there's a couple of things that I find interesting. Well, we do call this temporary insanity. And I will tell you that he was convicted in 2022, I'm not sure of the month. By the beginning of 2023, he was allowed to live in a private home, not the hospital. By 8, 2024, he was allowed to go home to Florida and New Jersey, but not other states. And by February of 2025, really the only conditions he has on himself is a stay away order to both her and the boyfriend. So normally though, when you're talking about a defense like that, the insanity might last longer. Look, I don't think his life is.

[A]

Also, he got a girlfriend. So one of his former clients

[C]

and

[A]

her daughter were being interviewed and speaking highly of him. And I remember thinking right away, oh, I bet she's his girlfriend now. I guessed it, like, halfway through. And of course, you know, he broke up with the woman that he was living with. With. But she. When she took the stand, she still spoke highly of him and said that he had a great relationship with her children and all of that. But who would ever want to be around a guy that, you know, does that with a gun? I. Again, you and I are in jail.

[C]

He's in jail, but also years, you know, but also to say she doesn't know what's going to happen, so she has to move on with her.

[A]

And of course, you wouldn't want. You would. I would never trust someone around me that can snap like that or my kids. I'd be like, I don't care if you're the most. And then that's where, you know, guns come into play, you know, in that you and I are not gun people. We don't own guns. We're not familiar with how guns work. I mean, we couldn't. I couldn't pick one up right now and know how to shoot it. However, it is that finality of a gun that, like, even if he was just so pissed and he ran over there and he punched her, and then the boyfriend came and they wrestled on the. You know, then they would just been like a weird assault thing. It wouldn't have been attempted murder, like, you know, that type of thing. But because you have a gun, you know, it could cause such amazing damage. But so of course he gets the girlfriend, right?

[C]

And I think they're still together. I think she's now a fiance. Just FYI. Because now what's happening. And I'm sorry, I'm gonna let you continue. I interrupted you.

[A]

No, no, I want to hear what you think. Tell us what's happening now, and then I'm gonna give my prediction of what I think the Netflix does doc is going to focus on. So go finish what you're going to say.

[C]

Okay, so. Well, now we do have this Netflix doc, and I'm going to. There are. There's been obviously some buzz. She's already disapproving, although we haven't seen it yet.

[A]

Lauren.

[C]

Of what the Netflix doc is about. She writes a letter to tmz. This is what of which, of course, TMZ puts it out. She doesn't try to go through a lawyer, even though her dad's a lawyer or retired lawyer. She's putting it out in the media and she's really concentrating on the fact that this is not the story that should be stated here. And goes back into her injuries. I guess in trial, you know, in trial we have these things called motions and lemonade. And what they are is what is allowed in trial. There's always more evidence that's actually present, but some are all for different reasons, prejudicial or whatever may not come in. Okay, so what we're. What I'm hearing is that certain pictures were not brought in. Like her, maybe her extensive injury pictures were not brought in, which could. Because maybe more of her. She had to have a bunch of surgeries to maybe correct the actual injury at the time. But his injuries, when he was beaten up were shown. So, you know, that could have been viewed differently. And also I'm basically told that there were a lot more texts, a lot more social media posts than what was presented to this jury. And I think that would make her even look worse. Correct. So she's not happy.

[A]

So that. So my prediction was that we were. The doc will definitely focus more on her life before she met the trainer, before she met Michael, which I would

[C]

love to hear about.

[A]

We're gonna hear about some ex husband. We're gonna hear about some college roommates. We're going to hear about when she worked at some place. We're going to hear about all the other weird shit she's done when she thinks she's being crossed. We're going to hear that how she was such a little princess. I don't know if she's the only child, but if she has siblings, they're probably going to be like, yeah, she was the fucking princess of the house. And it's going to be a lot of that. And the people getting the paycheck to do this or whatever are definitely Michael and his current girlfriend. And in trying to rebuild his career and his life and you know, that's what it is. A documentary doesn't. Is not. Can absolutely be biased. Of course it absolutely can be, you know, portrayed one way. It actually can even be done in a way that someone is setting out to do a lawsuit later. Like, I don't know, he might, he might even be gearing up to sue her. Right? You know, for. For this, who knows? And then this would help it because laying it all out and millions, millions and millions of people will see it Just like they did the Menendez brothers and feel that, you know, justice was not served or whatever. So that's what I think is we're going to see, right?

[C]

No, I think we're definitely going to get a lot more details that we never got before. I definitely think the fiance and Michael are involved in this willingly and want to be. So I'm not sure I, I think I know where this is leaning. I think I know where it was leaning in like 2022. But it'll be, it'll be curious to see what she is able to add. Maybe she's able to finally say things that actually have some bearing that help

[A]

her, you know, or, or worse, since, since 2022, whatever. Maybe she fucking got weird on Reddit or something. She got weird with somebody else. It'd be interesting to see if, like, she, where she's come still might be, you know, typing away, being a reindeer somewhere and, and just trying to destroy someone else's life. Because I'm sure with a documentary team, they can find everything.

[C]

Well, in 19, she was 37. In 2019, I believe when the verdict came down, she was. It was 2022. So what would that be? 40, 41. And so now we're four more years. So she's now 45. Right.

[A]

Is she coming to LA in 28 to prance around on the horse or what's going to.

[C]

I mean, I hope we hear a little bit more about that, because I don't really, other than the fact that she's not happy with the way the doc was portrayed. And the reason why people are talking about it now before it's come out is because she's saying a lot about how she's been traumatized three times. The first time was obviously when she was shot. The second time was when she was acquitted. And the third time when he was acquitted. When he was acquitted. I'm sorry, when he was acquitted. And obviously that's not, you know, a verdict she wanted. And the third time is the streaming of the Netflix. But if you really wanted to say that, I would say that this is. I mean, if she really wanted to make an argument, she'd say, I haven't. I've been screwed every single time. Because for the last three or four years, you know, he's out, he's out. He's living his life. And I'm being traumatized by this. But this is also the story of karma. I mean, it's karma.

[A]

Very interesting. And. But, you know, yeah, you, you did bring this on yourself to an Extent. And it is interesting though, with these crimes that are juicy, you know, rich people, horses, you know, the ones that the date lines of the 40 out of mysteries, the ones that the documentarians then see that and say, this could be more. This got, you know, a 12 page article written about in the New York Times. It is sad for those people that are victims of those high profile crimes, whether they're a parent of the victim who's maybe passed, or they themselves, because it does have to keep. It is reliving and reliving. We talk about like OJ's kids. You know, you think it's over with and then there's a new Ryan Murphy thing. And then you think it's over with because your dad died. And then, you know, someone else is like, well, now let's tell the real truth. You're like, my God. You know, and it's just so. But in her case, yeah, this is a different thing than that because we all realize she's a bitch.

[C]

But let me ask you a question, because you're more versed in like streaming and Netflix and why these documentaries ever come out. Why now? I mean, the only reason I could think that it's coming out now is because somebody reached out to her or she reached out to Netflix. Like, that's why.

[A]

I don't think she didn't read out to Netflix. No, they. The, the guy that got off and his girlfriend.

[C]

I don't know. That's what I'm.

[A]

Or they were, they were approached.

[C]

Why now?

[A]

Probably just because, listen, they know that these docs do well. And I'll be honest, I think some of these docs are too long and they're getting too lazy. And you know, we saw one recently and it was the, the Maura one. Mariah. Mariah, the cyclist who was caught in the love triangle and sadly murdered.

[C]

Murdered, yes.

[A]

And I actually don't think it was done very well. Like, I'm like, they're, you know, same pictures over and over again. I'm like, go find some other photos. I. Or even with someone who's older.

[C]

I get it.

[A]

They're older. Maybe they're not taking a million selfies at Coachella, but like, find a few other photos, find a couple other shots to fly the drone.

[B]

Like, just sometimes I just think, I

[A]

think that they, they're easy to sell. I, I don't think Netflix has to pay that much for it. And then they've got buzz for a week.

[B]

Every time there's a new crime doc

[A]

that, that's happening, somebody Joins Netflix that maybe hasn't joined before to watch it. And I mean, I always said, you know, when you go watch the Oscars years ago at little kids, and they'd be like, and for the short, for the documentary, and I'd be like, where do you watch these? Where do you want, like, when we were young, where would I watch this documentary? We're what weird artsy farts. See, you know, theater do I have to go to as a 12 year old?

[C]

Do you remember Lamour Theater in Encino? That's where you would watch the documentary. Right?

[A]

And so now it's like, well, now there's just so many.

[C]

You're inundated. Yeah, you're.

[A]

And you can just see it and watch it. And when that one of Mariah started, I thought I didn't recognize the name. And the minute they said she'd like to cycle, and I was like, oh, shit, I know this one. I just wanted to watch something fresh and new, you know, everyone. But this one I didn't. This one I did not know.

[C]

And I didn't know this.

[A]

Really fascinating.

[B]

So I'm excited now to watch what

[A]

they do with a story. I know a lot about that. I also watched the 48 Hour Mystery on like, how much more do they give us?

[B]

What's happened since?

[A]

And I thought, you know, this was a great one to talk to you about just the legal aspect of it.

[C]

Right?

[A]

So Yellow flower, thank you so much. Everyone's missed you.

[C]

I miss everyone. I took a great vacation though, so that was nice. But I miss everyone.

[A]

And so Shannon, tell everybody where they can find you and any legal needs they might have for you or your husband. Michael Goldstein.

[C]

I am on Instagram and I'm also. It's michaelgoldstein.net and you can easily reach me through him. And just my name, my Instagram. And you can also find my name on just any Internet, our website, et cetera. Etc.

[A]

Okay, great. Thanks, Shannon. Love you. Bye. Stitch fix.

[C]

Stop shopping.

[A]

Get styled a plus on the outfit. Ms. Turner, you are about to slay parent teacher conferences.

[C]

Oh, these just the most perfect fitting

[A]

jeans my stylist sent me.

[B]

Oh, hello, you who didn't set one

[C]

foot in a mall and still looks amazing.

[A]

Just share your size, style and budget and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. Stitch Fix, get started [e-mail] to my stylist, this look is dedicated to you. Thank you. Thank you.