A (2:01)

I'm a man. I'm 41.

B (2:02)

Oh, you look younger than that.

A (2:04)

Yeah, I'll take it.

B (2:05)

Yeah. And okay, so let's get into a little bit of why this documentary kind of piqued your interest based on the kind of crimes that you work on. So just tell us a little bit about what kind of law you. You've been involved in.

A (2:19)

Yeah, I mean, I also do criminal defense, but I tend to do more crimes of violence, murder, manslaughter, things like that. And, yeah, this. This documentary jumped out at me.

B (2:33)

This episode of Juicy Crimes is sponsored by One Skin. At the core is their patent OS1 peptide, the first ingredient proven to target senescent cells. The root cause of wrinkles, creepiness, and loss of elasticity. All key cel signs of skin aging and these results have now been validated in five different clinical studies. Oneskin also just launched their limited edition holiday sets, including the Nightly Rewind gift set, which adds the perfect touch of luxury to your gift list. For a limited time, Try OneSkin for 15% off using code Juicycrimes at Oneskin Co Juicycrimes. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support and tell them I sent you. This episode is brought to you by Netflix from the creator of Homeland. Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys star in the new Netflix series the Beast in Me as ruthless rivals whose shared darkness will set them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast in Me is a riveting psychological cat and mouse story about guilt, justice and doubt. You will not want to miss this. The Beast In Me launches November 13th only on Netflix.

C (3:47)

Hi, I'm Karina Beamersterfer, host of Morning cup of Murder, your daily true crime podcast. Yes, you heard me right. Daily true crime, everyday Morning cup of Murder tells you a straightforward short form story about murder, true crime, cold cases, disappearances, serial killers, cults and more. And I do that all in under 15 minutes. With over three years of stories and over 20 million downloads, the Morning cup of Murder podcast has become a staple of so many people's daily routines. So why not add it to yours? Stream Morning cup of Murder everywhere you listen to podcasts and remember, stay safe.

B (4:31)

So let's, why don't you guys start, why don't you kind of tell us what jumped out at you? Because the beginning is very raw in that it's all like this raw. It's the cops body cam footage. That's how it starts for like a good like 10 minutes, kind of, kind.

A (4:46)

Of the whole thing, right? It's body worn camera sort of, you know, unraveling the mounting dispute between these neighbors. And what's nice about it is it drops the viewer into sort of our job. A lot of our job is just reviewing Body worn camera and trying to suss out what really happened, what are people saying and how much of that is accurate and how much of that is maybe covering other things that they know to be true but don't really want to lead with.

B (5:20)

So in this, this is a few years ago and it's in Florida and it's just kind of like a middle class area and so the kids are like playing. You want to describe the area, Shannon? A little bit.

C (5:34)

I kind of feel the way. I don't know about you, but I felt like it was Kind of almost like rentals, almost duplexes across the street kind of a neighborhood. I think the disputes start as early as 2021. And obviously we have Susan Lorenz, who ultimately becomes our defendant and perfect neighbor. Our perfect neighbor.

B (5:54)

Right.

C (5:55)

And she was, I think about 58 years old, white woman. You know, I. I hate to say it, kind of single, probably.

A (6:01)

You know, I mean, the kids are mocking her, calling her a Karen. Yes, she's.

B (6:08)

So the Karen name had already been in our vernacular by 21.

C (6:12)

Yeah, I guess it had been.

B (6:13)

Yeah.

C (6:13)

But.

A (6:14)

But prior to that, I think a, you know, an equally apt descriptor would be Oscar the Grouch. She just was cranky.

B (6:21)

Yeah.

A (6:22)

You come in her neighborhood, you're gonna get some. Some venom spat at you.

C (6:26)

You're gonna get pushback, you know?

B (6:27)

Do you recall her age? 58. Okay.

A (6:31)

Yeah. And, I mean, I didn't realize it was in Florida until I checked, but I was watching it with my wife and she's like, where is this? I'm like, it feels Florida. This looks Florida to me. And so I was happy when it was. And not the luxurious Florida. This was swampy, mosquitoes, and there's just an undercurrent of anything can happen. And it feels like the things that are trying to set off Ms. Lorentz are about as wholesome as things can get there. It's a bunch of kids playing football and tag and running around in an open yard near where they live.

C (7:11)

I think that's the worst part is that, yeah, I can see that a neighbor would find it annoying at times, but really, they're not doing anything wrong. These are kids. What would you say the ages were? Like seven or even younger to maybe 14?

A (7:23)

Yes.

C (7:24)

They're just being kids, really, quite frankly.

B (7:26)

I know. And especially in this day and age when you're like, gosh, we wish kids would get out and play more. It's like here they're actually out and, like playing, and they're near their homes. And now so she starts to complain and call the police. But were these times of the kids playing, were they ever really late at night or was it all just during the day and she was just a bitch about it.

A (7:49)

Well, what kind of comes through in the body worn camera footage is a little bit of the confusion that you're asking about here. Each cop that comes out, sometimes it's the same cop, but oftentimes it's someone new to the scene who each time is being introduced into this sort of Hatfield McCoy situation. McCoy situation that's brewing and sometimes the cops are taken in by her and are like, whoa, this is going on. Let's get you some protection. And other times, more often, the cops going, hold on, lady. And this is. As the calls are mounting, maybe there's starting to be a little reputation brewing. Lorenz is calling again. One of us has to get out there. But the name of the show comes about because in one of these early calls, Lorenz, who does a pretty good job of disarming someone that she's talking to with little colloquialisms and, oh, little old me kind of vibe is saying, look, you got to believe me, I'm like the perfect neighbor. I wouldn't complain about this sort of thing, but. And then starts complaining about, you know, the kids acting up and, and later, as we see this thing develop when she's interrogated, it turns out she's not such a nice little old lady. Oh, look at me. And she's not particularly old at all, but she acts like a sort of a live in, kind of shut in.

C (9:11)

Yes.

A (9:13)

Doesn't seem to have much going on in her other.

B (9:14)

So she lives alone?

C (9:16)

Yeah, she lives alone. I think she says on numerous occasions it's just me, I'm very quiet. I do nothing wrong. I'm a perfect neighbor. I'm not upsetting anybody.

B (9:23)

Was she ever married or had kids or anything or did they ever touch.

A (9:27)

On that doesn't look like happily, if she ever.

C (9:30)

I doubt it. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's what you, that's what comes through, is that I have a question.

B (9:35)

When, if you're one of these people that called the local police over and over again and it's not a serious thing, it's not your husband beating you, whatever, and so they're just like, well, you know, like what? Does there ever come a time where a cop can then say, no, we're not coming out there anymore, or just legally they have to come every time so that there's a record, do you know?

A (9:57)

You know, I think that it's certainly not like written down, like you can only go out to this residence this many times or whatever, but the cops have a pretty good way of letting the person know when their concern is essentially frivolous and a waste of their time. And that problem kind of resolves itself. By the way, I'll mention in the body worn camera footage you see, by and large, as defense attorneys, we see it all the time. Most of the police work is really, really good. But there are a few real head scratching things that I Think we'll talk.

B (10:31)

About in a little bit another question about that. Like, what about if, you know, when, when someone, like, lies about a kidnapping or whatever, and then like in the Sherry Papini case, then she has to make up the money that they spent looking for her. So in some more of these, like, frivolous cases where you're just, like, calling the cops for, I heard a noise, I did it at this neighbor. Like, did that. Does that ever happen where they can venture, like the state, the city could, like, file a lawsuit against you for, like, wasting our time?

A (11:04)

That's interesting.

C (11:07)

Almost like you're a nuisance.

B (11:08)

Yeah. Like you're like. Because, yes, it's a 911 call. We have. We have to go. We can't not go. But if you were to add up all the things. I wonder if that's. I'm just wondering if that's ever happened.

C (11:18)

Where I, I think over time, particularly in this case, what you start to see is, is without it, without it happening, it feels like it's happening because the cops are. If they, if they come to three or four of these calls, they become less and less interested. And I think what Sean's going to touch on is maybe a little less involvement in really finding out what's going on, too. So you kind of.

B (11:39)

Do they ever, like, go over to the other houses where the kids live?

C (11:43)

Yes.

B (11:43)

Okay.

A (11:44)

There's a lot of that and a lot of the cops kind of acknowledging to the other adults that kind of come out to check out what's going on. Like, hey, this is the kind of stuff I used to do and maybe even worse than what's being alleged that these kids are doing. I'm sure there was some yelling back and forth between the kids and Ms. Lorenz, but by and large, the adults who are dealing with the cops, including Ms. Owens, who ends up getting shot and killed, are cooperative and just a little bit exasperated. Yeah, exasperated by, by Ms. Lorenz and her antics. And the cops get that way, too.

B (12:24)

Yeah.

C (12:24)

Yeah.

A (12:26)

What's interesting, though, is one of the things that I saw this documentary being framed as a indictment of is this stand your ground law in Florida. And I was even talking with a defense attorney buddy of mine about it. To me, that's the wrong frame entirely. What ends up happening here is, you know, these disputes or these, these complaints grow in number and frequency, and we actually see one little side issue where Ms. Lorenz gets the cops called on her because she ends up getting locked behind some no trespassing zone and flips out and starts like ramming her car into this fence and damaging this fence pretty seriously. And the cops have to come on, Dick, what the heck's wrong with you? What are you doing? Oh, well, I panicked. And she immediately invokes her fear. I panicked. I thought I was locked in. I had a fear response. And because that fear response, I can't really be held accountable for just flipping out and seemingly out of anger, driving through this fence that you didn't like getting locked behind you.

C (13:36)

And how.

B (13:37)

How early was. What was that, that driving fence thing? How.

A (13:41)

Well, they only include that in my estimation because casts doubt on a similar claim later when after a dispute with these neighborhood children where Ms. Lorenz is maybe using racial epithets and certainly foul language and harsh language with these kids and may or may not have like thrown a roller skate at a kid and maybe taken a kid's iPad. The mother of one of these kids who we see early on in the body worn camera footage say, if anything like this ever happens, kids, you don't engage, you just come get me. And the adults will work it out. The kid does that and she goes over to work it out. And she probably comes over hot, bang, bang, bang. You leave my kids alone. You don't do this. And next thing you know, a minute later, she's dead. And once the police come out to.

B (14:37)

Investigate, so, because the. So, okay, keep going.

A (14:39)

Well, so she comes over. Yeah, you don't talk about my kids. You don't throw things at my kids. You don't steal iPads or whatever she's saying as this is happening, Ms. Lorenz calls 911 and says, hey, this, these kids are maybe actually right before that happens, she calls 911. Hey, these kids just came over kind of anticipating that she probably just acted out and these kids are gonna go tell on her. So she wants to beat them to the 911 call.

B (15:08)

Oh, okay.

A (15:09)

And then between that 911 call and a second one, like two or three minutes passes, the second one is her being like, hey, I just shot and killed someone. Or I guess other people are calling being like, hey, I just heard this gunshot. And so the cops time it out. It's maybe only like two, three minutes from her saying, hey, these kids are acting up to three minutes later, you've now shot and killed one of the kids mothers. And so in that time, the mother came over, knocked on the door, and one of those fear responses just took over from Ms. Lorenz. And even though she was behind a locked door, even though she didn't have any reason to believe that the person outside was armed or was intent on doing physical harm to her. She grabbed her gun, not her phone, and fired out the front door, ends up killing the person. What I thought was super interesting is that the case was. Or this documentary was being talked about as this is the problem with stand your ground laws. And you know, spoiler alert, it's not like a stand your ground law here applied or saved her from anything. She ends up getting convicted, goes to prison for 25 years or sentenced to prison for 25 years. But what she's convicted of, to me is the story. She's convicted of manslaughter, not murder. Why not?

B (16:29)

Why not murder?

A (16:30)

Yeah, why not murder? This was an intentional killing, an intentional unlawful killing. I'm not a Florida lawyer, but in California, that's murder if you can prove it. And also is interesting that after the cops come out and they talk to this woman, this woman who has this record of just call after call after call is saying, oh, I feared for my life. I thought I was going to die. They let her go after the initial interview for four days.

B (16:58)

Yeah. She gets to go back to her house. Yes, the woman is in the corner's office.

A (17:02)

Yes, she goes back to the neighborhood and everyone in the neighborhood is just glaring at glaring.

C (17:06)

She just goes right back to her.

A (17:07)

House because they all hate her. They've all lined up against her. She's.

C (17:10)

Her neighbors are coming over and helping her clean up or whatever. I mean, not her neighbors.

A (17:15)

It's crazy.

C (17:15)

Her family, I mean, can you imagine.

B (17:18)

Her to clean up the blood on the.

C (17:20)

No, no, no. Just like packing up her stuff if she was gonna, you know, but just coming to visit. And in the meantime, these neighbors, family members have to watch this woman just go back to the house while they're burying their mother or their brother or I mean, or their, you know, their.

B (17:37)

Sister, a daughter, etc.

A (17:39)

Screaming to the cops. I mean, this little kid, the. The little boy who's sort of at the heart of it all. It's truly devastating to watch the family watch their. Their mom get wheeled away, still alive, and then learn later, after their biological father is called, arrives on scene, he learns the outcome, and then we watch him go and tell these kids. And they're asking the kids like, are you okay? And this kid goes, I'm okay, but my heart is broken. And it breaks your heart too, man. It just does. And so you're going, you're pulling your hair out. You're like, why is Ms. Lorenz not being treated like a common killer because that's what she seemingly did here. And the cops are getting all this pressure from the neighborhood and everything. We want justice. We want justice. And they kind of come in and it's not the cops making the charges, but law enforcement comes in and basically says it's okay guys, don't worry. We are arresting her and next thing you find out it's for manslaughter. And that to me was just a head scratcher. So maybe there's some, some weird thing in Florida that doesn't, you know, compute over to California. But in California, even if you say, hey, I did this out of self defense, certainly Riverside county, not a lot of stocks put into that if the evidence suggests otherwise. And here the evidence was pretty clear that this was not a trigger, that was pulled out of fear, it was pulled out of hostility, out of anger, out of rage.

B (19:13)

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C (21:00)

I can never find anything in my size. I don't even know my size.

B (21:04)

I buy my clothes the Same place.

C (21:05)

I buy my groceries.

B (21:07)

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A (21:16)

That was easy.

B (21:18)

Stitch Fix online. Personal styling for everyone. Free shipping and returns. No subscription required. Get started today@stitch fix.com. do you know what kind of gun it was? I'm not familiar. Was it like a handgun or like a rifle?

A (21:32)

Okay, handgun, I'm pretty sure. And it was not the only handgun she had. And oh, by the way, I was.

B (21:37)

Just gonna say she strikes me as someone that needs more than one gu Gun.

A (21:40)

Yes, exactly.

B (21:41)

Like a lot of guns. Yeah.

C (21:42)

Because those kids, you know, Miley might get in her way. I know, it's crazy. Wow.

B (21:46)

So do you think that they went that route because they want to keep this law like in good standing and not have it be a challenge? A type of a challenge? Because I always remember, kind of one of the reasons. So in, in being raised in California, in our home, we never had a gun. And my dad always would like give to gun control and stuff. And he and I. So then I would like do my school projects on it just because he had all the information. So it's just easier research. And you know, I remember some of the things were like, it's the first thing to be stolen when you're robbed. And, and my dad was like, I just know that it would be used with, you know, on somebody in the house. Like my dad would go crazy or my brother or whatever. And so I was always like, okay, you know, that's interesting because. But I also, obviously I respect people that grew up in rural areas and, and, and I do think with the crime in LA and everything, a lot of people want to have guns and I get why. But one thing that always feared about, of having a gun is there would be these cases I remember like reading about as a kid where like someone would be like robbing you and they came through your attic and then they'd like fall through your ceiling and then they would sue you.

A (23:09)

Yeah.

B (23:09)

For the fact that they broke their leg while trying to rob you or they were in your house and you shoot them and it too bad, you know, you shot someone who broke into your house in California, like you just. We just don't have the rights, whether it's squatter rights, whatever, over. So I, it's, it's interesting that in, in Florida, they were so quick to be on the side of the homeowner, you know, when she wasn't even trying to steal anything or break anything.

A (23:35)

Let me jump in there though, because oddly enough in California sort of has the reputation you just described, but when you go to the law, it's just the opposite. California is very much the wild west when it comes to self defense, just like Florida, in California you need not retreat and seek safety before exercising force in defense of yourself or others. And in fact, it's codified that under the right circumstances in California, you are legally allowed by way of self defense to pursue an assailant, chase them, only to then use force if the circumstances are right, to protect yourself. My first case ever was a case involving an individual using a gun that he was not allowed to possess due to a domestic violence restraining order proceeding to someone else's house, ends up getting into a family drama and fires his gun and shoots one of the people living at that house in the chest. And he was acquitted, rightfully on self defense grounds, because of how robust the self defense statute is in California. In that case, his brother was getting beat up and he issued warning shots. He did everything that he was trained to do by way of a profession that became relevant.

B (25:00)

But what was his profession?

A (25:01)

Well, he was in the army.

B (25:02)

Yeah, so he was in the army. He was trained in how to work a gun, but he wasn't allowed to have a gun at the time because.

A (25:08)

Of the restraining order when he was off. Off base.

B (25:11)

Oh, okay.

A (25:13)

On base, let have a gun off base. Couldn't. He was off base, but trained in threat assessment and maintained his innocence throughout. And the jury very, very quickly, in about 30 minutes, came back with a not guilty verdict because they saw that in California he acted appropriately under the law. And it's what's kind of cool is it is ultimately you could have a different standard based on where in California you go to trial, because it's up to the jury to decide what is reasonable under these circumstances. And so when you pull people in from this community, it might be different than what it is in la, it might be different than what it is in San Francisco, etc.

B (25:52)

And I don't think that we have said that the woman who shot the gun is white and the woman who was murdered is black. Correct. The kids in the neighborhood were black.

A (26:03)

There was, you know, all shades.

C (26:05)

Yes.

B (26:05)

Oh, there were other kids.

A (26:06)

And sure. You know, when the cops are interrogating the shooter, they're like, so did you, did you ever use any racial slurs? Any n word at all? And her response was pretty telling. She goes, I mean, if I let one slip, I let One slip. These things happen. Kind of.

C (26:26)

Yeah. It's a very interesting interrogation. Yeah.

A (26:28)

Yeah.

B (26:29)

And in the interrogation is. Is she shocked? Like she. Did she say, I just shot the gun as a warning. I didn't think it would go through the door. What did she say?

A (26:41)

She sticks to fear, right?

B (26:43)

Correct.

C (26:43)

She totally sticks. Fear. And I think what's interesting is what Sean was talking about earlier, where she was arrested because she panicked and then causes vandalism when she was trying to.

B (26:53)

Get out of this gate.

C (26:54)

That's where it comes back. Because she kind of almost is showing I'm a person who maybe panics too soon too, you know, that's my reasonableness, you know, And I think she kind of used that as her reaction was reasonable in the circumstances based on who she is, because she was panicking, that this woman came over. That was the impression I got.

A (27:15)

Do you think she was really panicking, though?

C (27:17)

No, I think that was her. I think it was a perfect setup though, because I think when the officer started looking at the case and investigating it, some officers believed that and other, other officers didn't.

A (27:29)

The thing that I thought was super interesting about the, the little, the. Let's call it the, the rage incident at the, at the gate, because it's what it was, right? Like, come on, you panicked, so you had to just run through this gate. It didn't seem to align. What seemed to happen was she didn't like that she was locked up, couldn't get her way, and just said, you know, just very entitled. And speaking of entitlement, when she is eventually about to be arrested, it's like a full on three or four or five awkward minutes. That was something I've never seen and I've watched I don't know how many hundreds of hours of body worn camera footage.

C (28:03)

Yes.

A (28:03)

I've never seen cops have a tougher time getting through to this person's head that, no, no, no, you're gonna have to get arrested now. We're gonna have to put handcuffs on you.

B (28:11)

You mean right after the shooting?

A (28:13)

No, this is like four days later, after. She's kind of thought, maybe I'm gonna get away with it. Maybe they're buying the, you know, I was just a scared neighbor. They kind of are like, yeah, the thing is, we don't think that's the case. DA doesn't think that's the case. You're going into custody now. And she attempts to simply refuse, no, I'm not going to do that.

C (28:31)

And she basically says that. She goes, no, I'm not going to do that. And they're just kind of sitting around going, well, I mean, oh, my God, I can't believe how patient they were. I would have grabbed her and said, you're going. I don't care how old you are and how fragile you claim to be.

A (28:44)

They were extraordinarily patient with her. And frankly, if I have any sort of criticism of law enforcement in this case, it is the degree of patience that they. I know, provided her. She is so unworthy of it. And. And it's hard to believe that they would give everyone that degree of patience. But all we see is what they do with her. And frankly, I thought they went above and beyond completely the call of duty as far as showing her.

B (29:11)

In general, I think women get the benefit of the doubt because they're not a big, huge, menacing person. So it's like when we see some, you know, when we see, you know, any kind of police brutality or not brutality, sometimes that force has to be taken because you're dealing with, like, a physically much bigger person. And this woman is older and she's white. She's not physically fit. And so it's like they probably. Yeah, of course, she got the. A different treatment than a man would or a woman of color or whatever.

C (29:43)

But it went so long. Like, I. It was weird. I was like, well, if she is. It was almost like, what. What's gonna happen if she really, truly doesn't agree? Because it. I mean, how long are we gonna just watch this woman sit down saying, nope, I don't think so?

A (29:57)

Yeah, she was trying to filibuster.

B (29:59)

Yeah.

C (30:00)

No, no, no. She was really calm. She goes, no, I don't want to go. No, I don't want to go.

A (30:05)

And. And. And in a rather composed tone. I think there's a certain magic in this woman's, like, vocal cords like that that adds to how long it took for everyone to realize, like, oh, she's just batshit. Right? I'm sorry. I'm allowed to say, yeah, yeah, yeah.

C (30:22)

Oh, yeah, for sure.

A (30:23)

But, yeah, because she has a sort of like. Like I said that. That colloquial sort of like, I don't know, just trustworthy appearance at first.

C (30:36)

Well, she also. The thing I thought it was really interesting is when they do arrest her and they ask her. This is previously when they ask her about, well, we saw you trying to get out of this gate. She totally denies it. She completely denied that wasn't me. Then she finally admits it was her. Like, she's constantly playing whoever liar to yeah. And she's playing. Depending on the officer that comes to her call or when she was arrested, she has a totally different way of communicating with that person.

B (31:07)

That's how I felt.

A (31:08)

Yeah. You know, she reminds me of one of those people that you see, like, the videos of that, like, are. Are purposely throwing themselves in front of cars or whatever.

B (31:19)

Yeah. To get the insurance.

A (31:21)

That's the vibe I got.

B (31:21)

Yeah.

A (31:22)

But she is not an. She's a liar, but not an unskilled one.

B (31:25)

Right. So, I mean, I'm just thinking about if I was in her situation and how I would try to get out of it and try to do the police. Yeah.

C (31:38)

Yeah.

B (31:39)

I wouldn't talk to the police, but I think because I always like to see what would I. If that. If I found myself in that situation. I mean, I would play up the fact that, like, I live alone. I. I would try to act like I'm more up than I am, like I'm crazy. And I would have also said I didn't think that the. That the bullet would go through the door. Like, did she ever say that? Because I think if you could. If that would make.

A (32:05)

I was trying to scare the person away.

B (32:07)

Right.

A (32:07)

All right. So, like a warning.

C (32:08)

I think she tried to say that it was. She tried to shoot, maybe lower is what she was saying, that maybe it would be a superficial wound. I don't really know. I think she was more thinking she wasn't right outside, even though she was saying she was banging on the door, and therefore I was just going to scare her. But I also felt like a total lack of remorse.

B (32:25)

Are you. Did you follow that?

C (32:27)

I didn't see any remorse. You remember when they tried to have her write a letter to the kids and.

A (32:32)

Which is a classic tactic. The cops will sort of. After the evidence that they have against the suspect has been laid out and if effective, has left the suspect feeling very, very boxed in. They will provide a pad of paper out of the goodness of their hearts and a pen and say, if you'd like to unburden yourself. I can't let you talk directly to those children whose mother you just unalived. But I'll make sure that they get your words. And at first you see her writing, and I'm going, she's fallen for it. Many have. And it just cinches the case up perfectly. But.

B (33:08)

And how does it cinch the case?

A (33:09)

Well, sometimes people just start, you know, writing and writing. Right. I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did this. I. You know, and this is. They actually do take it as an opportunity to unburden themselves and sort of.

B (33:20)

And so it truly is like a written confession.

A (33:22)

Yes.

B (33:22)

That they have.

A (33:23)

But instead of a letter to the. It's. Yeah, we're also going to be able to admit this letter into court as a confession.

C (33:28)

Yeah, but it was like two lines basically saying, I'm sorry she died, it wasn't my fault.

A (33:33)

More or less sorry she died. I was scared.

B (33:35)

Yeah.

A (33:36)

So she sticks to her story. She knows from the jump. And it wasn't there even something about her maybe researching stand your ground laws?

C (33:43)

Oh yeah, it was on the computer.

A (33:44)

Yeah. She had researched stand your ground laws and so she had her talking points.

B (33:47)

So she's just smart enough to be dangerous.

A (33:49)

Exactly. She was doing the right things to defend herself, save for that she was doing them to the police. If she wanted to provide the best defense possible, she ought not have spoken and should have gotten a good attorney to advance potentially, if the light can be shown on the facts the right way, a self defense argument or. But really it would have to be a miracle worker because in this case it jumped off. To me, a defense attorney, I'm like, this is clearly murder. This isn't self defense. For instance, in that first case that I mentioned, a good suspect does that's using a gun in self defense is maybe try some warning shots. It's not required by the law but boy, it helps your argument when you're trying to say look, I wasn't, I was doing this out of fear, doing warning shots, all sorts of things. There's a line in the movie, I forget who says it, but someone says under what circumstances is it okay to fire a gun at someone that is behind a locked door from you? And the answer isn't never. The answer is when you think the person on the other side of the locked door has a gun and is going to shoot at you. Right. And so that's the sort of evidence that could have resulted in a very, very different outcome from Ms. Lorenz, in my estimation. Thankfully that evidence doesn't exist. But. But who knows? There are plenty of situations that might resemble this where shooting out of your front door is the right thing to do. And it is, you know, born out of fear and not out of anger. This just wasn't that.

C (35:29)

Even if she said something like, I mean, they were almost having a conversation was what I understood was they were almost having a conversation like Ms. Owens was banging on the door saying what are you doing? Give back my kid's iPad or whatever it was. And no, no, no, no, I didn't take the iPad. There was a conversation. So what about if she had said, please don't come in, I have a weapon, some kind of warning?

A (35:53)

Or what if Ms. Owens had said outside like, you know, I have a gun and I'm about to fire into you, or slicker than that. But that might give some more traction for this argument of like, well, I got to stand my ground then. Right? But we have nothing like that. And what we do have is, you know, whole, I think some of the really like, mind blowing stuff to me. We've already talked about her not being willing to go into custody. But back to the gap that four days after the shooting and initial interview and the ultimate re. Interview and arrest, there's a time where the cops come out to help Ms. Lorenz kind of keep really keeping the peace with her as she's like getting things from the house or whatever. And this real firebrand neighbor across the way who we see throughout the documentary comes out and is just given Ms. Lorenz an earful, just jawing at her, you're a murderer. You're, you know, you're this, you're that. And the cop comes over and he's just doing his job or whatever, but he's like, hey, I might be mixing up, but he says something like, hey, don't make my day harder. Don't make this so difficult for me. And you see this woman go, difficult for you. She's sitting here, she helps raise these kids who just lost their mother. They're all on the same issue.

B (37:24)

Difficult for you.

A (37:26)

Difficult for you. And you hear the couple. I walked into that one.

B (37:30)

Yeah, maybe I didn't need.

C (37:31)

She was a mother of four.

A (37:32)

Oh, I liked that lady.

B (37:33)

Yeah.

C (37:34)

Oh, you really like that lady because she was just, she was a single mother of four, taking care of these kids and allowing.

A (37:41)

Yes. And was calling.

B (37:42)

How long did the, the defendant live at this location for?

C (37:48)

Oh, oh, oh.

A (37:50)

I think for a while she seemed like she was pretty hunkered down. But what was hilarious was the, the air of, you know, she had a certain pompousness to her. The first time the cops come out when she's complaining about what this neighborhood's like come to and these little, you know, ruffians outside are running around, she's like, I was thinking of buying this whole little unit, but not anymore. It's like, you ain't buying that unit.

B (38:14)

She doesn't have any money, right? Did she have any money? Did she have money? So does she Get a good defense attorney.

A (38:20)

I don't know. They don't. They don't really.

B (38:23)

They don't really.

A (38:23)

She has an attorney, but they don't go into the court stuff because it sounds like she just played out. Maybe. Maybe it was a trial.

C (38:29)

I think it was a trial. No, she was.

A (38:32)

I would have loved to have seen.

B (38:32)

The trial if she was your client. And you, You've. You've seen the cam. Body cam footage, you know her history, you've questioned all the people, and obviously you want to try to get her off or have her do as little time as possible. What would be like your. Your spiel of why the jury should not throw the book at her?

A (38:55)

Well, this would be a sentencing issue for me. Yeah, I would go to the judge, and frankly, the judge didn't max her out. The judge, I think, could have sentenced her to like 28 or 29 and only did 25. I'm like, oh, so. So, you know, she gets a few points off for what exactly? I don't know. But in California, if charged as murder, this is 50 to life that you're looking at. She ends up getting 27 or, no, she got 25, which means it's probably a life sentence, but there's a world where it's not. And she gets to get out one day, and that's bonkers to me. The first podcast of the week should be the last word in tech. This week in Tech with me, Leo Laporte, and the best tech journalists I can gather on short notice to talk about the latest in technology trends and news. You need to know what's happening in tech, whether it's AI, iPhones, desktop computing, Intel. We cover it all every week right here on this Week in Tech, the number one tech news podcast in the world. Join me, won't you? What if the truth about our reality has been hidden in plain sight? What if aliens, consciousness, and ancient spiritual wisdom are all connected? I'm Rob, and this is Unveiled, a podcast that dives into, headfirst into the biggest mysteries of our time. Each episode, I sit down with thought leaders, insiders, experiencers, and visionaries to explore the unknown. From the UAP phenomenon and government coverups to alien abductions, remote viewing, and the metaphysics of consciousness. This is not your average UFO podcast. Unveiled is about peeling back the layers of reality, of belief, of ourselves. So if you're ready to challenge the mainstream narrative, expand your mind, and discover what lies beyond the veil, hit follow and join me on this journey into the unknown.

C (40:47)

I think, to be honest, with you, I think the win. I think you would agree with me. Is that what she was charged with, quite frankly, once.

A (40:53)

Once murder's not on the table, and it sounds like the max was 27 or 28, even if she only got 25. Plea out into the guilty plea form and lock in what your potential exposure is. If it's only that, great. Because it can only get worse.

B (41:08)

Because if you're going to try to prosecute her for, for first degree, you know, they say first degree. You know, it's like it wouldn't be.

C (41:15)

First degree, it would be second. I mean, it's just because it's not. It wasn't first degree. Is.

B (41:20)

We just.

C (41:21)

That's not first degree. Because you'd have to have some premeditation. Although.

B (41:24)

But they say premeditation could be like a matter of minutes.

A (41:27)

That's true. Like even less. It could be a split second, really, of deliberation and intent. If I put on a prosecutor hat, I think you can get to first degree here.

B (41:35)

Yeah.

A (41:36)

There's a long standing feud of animosity between you and this woman and especially her kids. And she's on your front porch for a minute. You've already called the police.

C (41:47)

The police are on their way.

A (41:48)

Yeah. That little gap of time, that two minutes is plenty of time to decide, you know what, rather than recalling the police, why don't I just take care of this problem myself? That's very much what it seemed to me happened. And I'm really just surprised that the cops didn't or the DA's office didn't @ least try to get a murder conviction, knowing that even if they come up a little short, they're likely gonna land on what she ultimately got anyway, which is manslaughter. The difference being the intent behind the shooting.

B (42:15)

And how does she react when she's in the. Right after the shooting and she's in the interrogation room? Do they get word then that this woman has passed? Do they. Where does she get word that this woman is not going to recover in the interrogation room?

A (42:32)

Yeah, the interrogators. The interrogators have kind of figured her game and, and they're. They're working on her. But it seems like there's a more decided pro prosecution tone in the second interview. The first one is more of like a what happened? This is your story.

C (42:51)

I think they're being kind of gentle. But they tell her in that very first interview because the mom does. I mean, Ms. Owens does end up passing that night. She doesn't pass at the scene. But later that night, and, you know, I don't know, I thought the reaction was, oh, geez. Oh, God. I mean, I didn't think it was.

A (43:08)

She wasn't all torn up about it.

B (43:10)

Yeah. It wasn't just a horror. Like, she wasn't.

A (43:12)

I just took a life.

B (43:13)

I just.

A (43:14)

I just took a life. And, you know. Yeah, she.

C (43:18)

I think she really felt justified. I think she had convinced herself over time that she somehow was justified in some of her actions. Maybe not necessarily in the killing, but at least it may be. Picking up a gun, calling all the police officers, saying that these kids have been doing these things. That's what I felt.

A (43:34)

She. She. She's a little tapped mentally. I think she's a racist. And she. She's an ornery, sort of seemingly discontented recluse who.

C (43:48)

Right. Who agreed.

A (43:50)

Let their. Their bile spill out and hurt other people.

B (43:55)

So, I mean, come on. So now she goes to prison, right?

A (44:00)

Not gonna be fun there.

B (44:01)

Not gonna be fun. People are gonna know the story, and then they're really gonna know the story. When you're Netflix. I don't know. Netflix in prison. But, like, oh, like, they. You know, that's.

C (44:10)

Can you imagine?

B (44:10)

Like, when I interviewed Cherry Papini, she was like, oh, it was really bad when the TV movies started to come about and things. Because they were like, ooh, you're gonna. You know, we're gonna watch it now. And like. But in her case, you know, she. Again, the crime was really just against, you know, wasting people's times and hearts. But with this. I mean, to imagine there's, you know, most of the women in prison, they're doing the time are mothers, unfortunately. And to have them be like, oh, no, this bitch is not going to have an easy time with us.

A (44:49)

The time between her getting well, between the shooting and the interrogation, all that, and her showing up at the sentencing, there's a little, like, jump in time in the movie. And it doesn't look like the time's been kind to her already.

B (45:01)

Yeah. Oh, I agree with you.

A (45:02)

It's not the years. It's the mileage. She's. She's wearing it, so it'd be surprising if she made it out, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. And. And, yeah, she. She's not gonna have fun in there. I had a case one time. Jurors were talking, potential jurors talking about why they could or couldn't be good. And this one guy said, I used to be in. In prison, and I was indoctrinated kids, women or old people that's on site, I'm gonna go after you.

B (45:32)

And if those were your crimes, if.

A (45:34)

You hurt, if you hurt a kid, a woman or an old person, you're gonna have some problems. And, you know, she did.

B (45:43)

And so now if you were the defense attorney, Shannon, can you put the prosecutor hat on? If you're the defense attorney or if I was, obviously I would want to try to build this character of she, you know, has lived alone a long time, she's gotten a little squirrely, she, you know, is scared all the time. And I would try to get the letters from people that are like, she was always really lovely. Or I did notice that she's changed in the last 10 years, you know, that I don't know, obviously almost like didn't go that whole route or did they, or you don't know, I don't know.

C (46:28)

But almost like showing a little built in paranoia over time. And kind of what I was saying, that that became her own reasonable reality and that even though what she did was very, very wrong, it wasn't done in such a malicious, intentional way. I would also talk about the fact that just, you know, this could be the. We're talking about the perfect neighbor. She's maybe the perfect inmate. And she's not going to be, you.

B (46:52)

Know what I mean?

C (46:52)

She's not, she's not going to cause any trouble. She's older, she's, you know, do we give her a.

B (46:58)

Is she really a danger to society?

C (47:00)

I mean, obviously there's another argument that she is a danger to society.

B (47:03)

Ring defense attorney.

C (47:04)

Correct. But maybe say she's not a danger to some society and this is somebody that really can just kind of. Although that kind of. If you talk about being paranoid and that obviously kind of, well, you just.

A (47:15)

Kind of set a light bulb off in my head. Like, I'm surprised there wasn't any sort of. Maybe there was, but there ought to have been in my estimation, a, a discussion about a potential mental health defense as this is. Sure she is guilty of doing this thing, but the reason that she's guilty of doing it is, is a substantial motivating factor is what I think they mentioned is a prior PTSD diagnosis. And if you can talk about, look, the only reason this happened is because she has this mental health issue, which I could be convinced of very, very easily. If she has legitimate ptsd, if doctors come in and say, look, we've looked at her prior diagnosis, we've looked at her tests, then it doesn't Mean, oh, well, not guilty version of insanity. Not guilty. We'll see you out over at Safeway or whatever.

C (48:06)

Right.

A (48:06)

It just means that rather than spending your time in prison, you're going to be in a room with padded walls over at the mental institution, which maybe not the worst outcome as a defense attorney. I kind of think that's where you should be steering it. Right.

C (48:18)

Like I would think so. Yeah. Because I don't think you're going to get. You're not going to get a not guilty by reason of insanity. It doesn't rise to that level. But it could almost be like a mitigating factor. And you could also use that mitigating factor in sentencing. I know that you talked about you would go straight to sentencing. I think you could use it both for the guilt phase and the sentencing phase.

A (48:37)

Correct. I think you try for not guilty burden at the trial. If you get it, great. She's going to be sent to a mental institution rather than a prison where people that are trained in how to deal with people like this.

B (48:49)

Right.

A (48:49)

But if you come up short, then she's going to prison. And yet you still have all this great evidence before the judge who's going to be making the call as to why. Maybe there are some facts in mitigation here.

C (49:00)

Yeah. And maybe get the minimum sentence, which.

B (49:02)

I also applies for a defense attorney. Defense attorneys always go, there is let's find someone else to blame, which is usually the police. They should have known this was a brewing problem. I mean, now I'm being your co Counselor. They should have known this was a brewing party. They went this many times. Like they, why didn't they bring social services out there to try to solve this problem? Or why didn't they talk to the landlords about could, could her unit be moved? What is going on here? Like, I'm just, I'm not saying that they did do anything wrong, but I'm saying if you put that. So it always seems like sometimes you need to put it somewhere else than on the defendant. Right.

A (49:41)

I kind of think that's. Actually, those are interesting arguments, but maybe more for a civil practitioner or a wrongful death action on behalf of the, the child who's just lost. For these children who lost their mother.

B (49:51)

I would think that they.

A (49:52)

Cops. How many, how many times do you need to be called out like you were talking about earlier.

B (49:56)

Yeah.

A (49:57)

To be kind of put on notice. Like, we have a little issue here. What is the best way to deal with that issue? It's not like they can say, hey, we gotta move you. Like, she gets to live there. But it. Frankly, I think it's part of the reason it's been so captivating to everyone is it is a quagmire. She is allowed peaceful enjoyment of her home there. But kids are allowed to be kids. And just because you're getting frustrated or irritated doesn't mean you respond in anger. And we saw that sort of thing mounting. So I think a civil attorney explore that, that the.

B (50:38)

This mother and the other mothers and their kids could have protected themselves is if they went and complained, said they felt threatened, got a restraining order, therefore, then they would be aware that she had guns, take her guns away. And we, you know, that is such a hard thing to. To have done. You have to really prove. Yeah, she, you know, and if it's just her yelling on her. Her porch, get off of my lawn and all that.

A (51:07)

Yeah, I think you just cracked the case, actually. That's exactly what should have happened here.

B (51:11)

Yeah.

A (51:12)

One of these responses from law enforcement, and they're very cool, they're talking about, hey, I get it, your kids are just like me, blah, blah, blah. But maybe a nice little. Certainly not a requirement, but a nice little thing to do would be like, you know, if. If you're actually worried about her doing something serious, you might explore. Because cops do this a lot, you might explore a civil harassment restraining order packet. And that is a much lower standard that needs to be proven in order to get put into place. And like you said that that was the thing that I was like, whoa, right on. It removes your guns. And so this wouldn't have happened, ostensibly if she didn't have access to a gun right then. And a restraining order that I think could have easily been proven and granted had been.

B (51:59)

And that is the scary thing about guns and why it's like such a hot topic. Because I understand there, you know, I can barely work a TV remote. I don't want to be in charge of a gun. I don't want a gun near me, except, you know, it scares me. But I also totally respect people that know how to have guns, you know, know how to work guns and have guns. And, you know, at my old house, we had a neighbor that we're friendly with that had guns. And it made me feel good that, you know, like, if something went down across the street, this person knows what the fuck they're doing. But then when you're sitting in prison and I know she's not a good person, but in another case where maybe this could happen and the intention Wasn't so entitled and selfish and whatever you're like, oh, if only I didn't have that gun, you know, that things wouldn't have escalated to a point of death. It reminds me of remember the case with the very good looking runner from South Africa? Oh yeah, he had that disease. So he didn't have calves and he had the thing and he was famous and he had this gorgeous model girlfriend or fiance.

C (53:06)

That was the exact same facts actually because he shot through a door.

B (53:10)

That's a great call to remind people. So he had this beautiful girlfriend, she was a model and he was gorgeous and pistorious. Oscar Pistorius, he was, you know, this paraplegic, is that quadriplegic, not quite amputee. He's a para. And because he was so, so good looking and everything, he would, you know, kind of be the toast of the town. And lots of girls did not care that he didn't have the second half of his legs because he was so good looking. So he gets his gorgeous model girlfriend. And in South Africa there's so much crime that people have like metal like coming outside, you know, behind their windows, even if they are in the most beautiful home. Right. Private security. A lot of people have. So what his story was is that he woke up and he heard something in the bathroom and he immediately was like, who's there? Who's there? And then there was some rumbling to come out of the door or whatever and then he shot through the door all these times and then opened the door and saw it was his beautiful girlfriend who had gotten up and went to the bathroom. And the prosecutors were like, no, there's a history of you guys having marital or you know, relationship problems and you, you knew that she was there and. But there was also a good argument in that he didn't see her get up. He was head house had just been broken into. It's a very gun happy place. Like a lot of people have guns because it is like the only way you to protect yourself. Right.

A (54:49)

And so what do you think?

B (54:52)

Well, he did do some time. I know, but I mean, no, he was convicted. He was convicted. I think he's out now and I mean it's just again, it's just a really horrible thing because whether he was mad at his girlfriend or he thought and he wanted to kill her or he thought this really was a, a criminal. It's like, oh, if you hadn't have had the gun at all and they.

A (55:13)

Got into like whether or not he, I think he had his, his prosthetics yeah.

B (55:18)

How he had walked over because, of course, he was sleeping, so he didn't have them on, and so he. But he could, like, walk on them.

A (55:25)

Color me skeptical. I think he was angry. I mean, I get it. And I think there was a history.

B (55:33)

By the way, with other girlfriends.

A (55:36)

Seems relevant.

B (55:36)

There was something where she had said to somebody, like, I don't think we're. I think we're going to break up. There was stuff like that. So the other argument is they get in a fight. She's like, fuck you. I hate you, and. Or something. Or maybe he has his hands on her or something, and she grows the bathroom and shuts the door, and he's. And he loses his mind and he kills her. But it's still, to me, didn't really make sense that he would do it that way. Like, usually that's not really, like, a crime of passion. A cry of passion is more likely strangulation or through the door. Yeah, that is through the door.

A (56:11)

The. Through the door is interesting.

B (56:13)

Her. You're not seeing her face. You're not like, if I can't have you, no one can. You're, like, hobbling on your little legs.

C (56:19)

And then you're gonna shoot through a door.

A (56:20)

Weren't they drinking that night, though? Wasn't.

B (56:21)

Yeah, it was like they went out that night. A beautiful. Yeah, there was probably a fight. Probably you were flirting. I'm not gonna be with you. Or I even think he might have cheated. And it's like, here. You think you're, you know, going. You're doing this thing that's, like, beyond looks, even though he was cute. But you're going for a guy that's, you know, he's the handicap.

A (56:43)

He's the Blade Runner. He's famous.

B (56:44)

Right. But still, you think you're going for this now, and he's, you know, being awful to you, and she's probably like, what the am I doing?

C (56:51)

But was he convicted of, like, a voluntary or an involuntary? Because I thought it wasn't necessarily an intentional act. I thought it was more like neglect. So he might, in his own mind, might have thought that it was a criminal, but he just acted so. Not neglect. Recklessly. He acted so recklessly, and that's what caused him to get. That was my record. I just remember watching all the things.

B (57:12)

Because they're like, well, wouldn't you have seen that she was no longer in the bed? Right. And it. It was a pretty good argument that it was like, you know, before we start firing into doors, he, like, popped up, you know, and was like, let's say, you know, the door was here and she's sleeping here, you know, so he like popped up, got his gun and was like, ah. And then just did that and never bothered to look to see that she wasn't even in the bed next to him. He was like trying to protect her, but he never bothered to see that she, he didn't hear her wake up, walk to the bathroom, and was just sitting on the toilet or washing her hands.

C (57:49)

I mean, unfortunately there would be no witnesses, but like, honey, honey, are you there? Where are you? Like, you know something. But there wouldn't be any witnesses. There only be him because she's bathed.

B (57:57)

You go right to the place that who's ever in your house happened to come into your bedroom and go into your bathroom. Not that they're downstairs.

A (58:04)

It's not where the safe is.

B (58:05)

Yeah, right, right, right. You know. Right.

A (58:08)

One other little like undercurrent to all three of the situations is what we call the Castle doctrine. There's a law that says when you are in your home and you reasonably fear for your safety, you are empowered all the quicker to exercise force in defense of yourself. We have that in California, probably have something like it in Florida, and who knows in South Africa. But that is something that should be weighed. And I think you bring it up earlier, like, guy breaks in your house, falls through and he's suing you. You should have all the more, you should have all the benefit of the right to self defense in your home more than anywhere else.

B (58:55)

Right.

A (58:56)

And so Pistorius has that going for him. Lorenz has that going for her. Is it enough to change a crime to, to a justified act? I don't think so, but, but it is, it's a consideration.

B (59:11)

Do you remember at the end, did they file a lawsuit against like the, the city police or anything? Or the.

A (59:17)

I'm gonna be looking it up after this conversation.

C (59:19)

I am too.

B (59:20)

Yeah, I would think that you could, there'd be something there, some type of settlement or something.

C (59:24)

Well, they're not going to get it from her.

B (59:26)

No, you're not getting anything from her. So you have to go to the next level. You know, speaking of her, it's like when a teacher molests a child or whatever and then you sue the whole school district. Yeah.

A (59:34)

And yeah, I think what you said about the, the police officers. Yeah, there's, there's an angle there about her family a bit. I think I heard that her sister maybe was like convicted of some animal cruelty or like Neglect or something. I think, you know, had cats that were going crazy in the house. I might be butchering that. Or maybe I'm conflating it with an episode of Hoarders that my wife always makes me watch. But it's not a great sign if, you know, one sister's shooting the neighbors, the other sisters letting the cats die in the bedroom.

C (60:09)

Yeah, it's not.

B (60:10)

Yeah. Well, I'm so glad that you came. And just a little follow up. Interesting thing is that with the last Palm Springs case that we did that there was a dateline about, and that was where I said it was the Prince, the freckled gay and your friend who was the prosecutor, you had a connection to that. The Prince, the. The guy selling the art, that Palm Springs murder. What was your connection?

A (60:35)

Well, I actually represented who you're referring to as the Prince on. On habeas.

B (60:41)

And what does habeas mean?

A (60:42)

Habeas is after. So the Prince represented himself at trial, was convicted.

B (60:53)

There were issues killing the. The. The older man.

A (60:56)

Correct. Part of that conspiracy. And on appeal, I came on board and due to some things that I can't get into, but some. Some legitimate prejudices that befell the prince at the first trial, how that trial was handled, the court of appeal issued in order to show cause as to why the prince shouldn't get a new trial. And ultimately he did get a new trial. That new trial never occurred, but he was granted. Okay.

B (61:29)

And it never occurred because he was killed in the prison. Right.

A (61:32)

While awaiting new trial. First client of mine that has ever met a violent end like that really shook me up, actually. And so of all the people.

B (61:44)

And he was transitioning into becoming a woman at that time.

A (61:46)

That's correct.

B (61:47)

How far along had he gone medically, do you recall?

A (61:50)

I can't get into any of that stuff. But that's okay to ask.

B (61:54)

But like, when does. When does that happen? Where then. Then it's okay. You're at a level where now we're going to move you to a woman's prison. Have you ever had that happen with any of your clients or know anybody?

A (62:04)

I have not. Oh, I have not happened. I've not had that happen and don't know anything about that. But. But yeah, saw that you guys were speaking about that. That case and friendly with Shannon. You guys were really kind to invite me over.

B (62:21)

Yeah, this was really interesting. And tell everybody where they can find you if they need any legal services.

A (62:28)

The Sullivan Defense.com is. Is my website. I tend to handle more felonies, crimes of violence, things like that in Southern California and Federal also.

C (62:40)

And Shannon, you know how to reach me? I'm on Instagram under my name. And then of course, michaelgoldstein.net oh, yeah, Instagram.

A (62:48)

Sullivan defense.

B (62:49)

Yes. Thank you so much, everybody. Love you. Go to heathermcdonald.net for anything else. Make sure you subscribe to Juicy Crimes here on all platforms and YouTube. Thank.

A (63:04)

You.

C (63:34)

And I needed more.

B (63:36)

My kid went so bad.

C (63:37)

And the smell never leaves.

B (63:41)

I don't know what to do.

A (63:43)

I'm always in the dark. The sweat in that short smells like a dark downy rinse Fights stubborn odors in just one wash? When impossible odors get stuck in.