Unsolved Mysteries of Jon Benet and Madeline McCann

Summary

Juicy Crimes with Heather McDonald

Episode: Unsolved Mysteries of JonBenet and Madeleine McCann

Original Release: February 18, 2026
Host: Heather McDonald
Guest: Kate Casey (Reality Life with Kate Casey podcast)

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Overview

This episode of Juicy Crimes takes a lighter (but still thoughtful) approach to true crime, focusing on some of the most captivating unsolved mysteries, including the cases of JonBenet Ramsey and Madeleine McCann. With guest Kate Casey, Heather McDonald navigates these famous cases, the culture around them, and broadens the discussion to topics like Olympic scandals, parenting in the spotlight, the effects of media, and the subtle traumas experienced by the families (and siblings) of victims. Throughout, Heather and Kate keep a conversational, empathetic tone, blending personal anecdotes, pop culture references, and memorable insights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Olympic Ice Skating, Scandal, and Pop Culture

[01:17–19:18]

• Olympics & Ice Skating Craze:
  • Kate observes: "For three years and 10 months, no one talks about ice skating. And then the Olympics come and suddenly everybody’s an expert..." (01:59)
  • Discussion about famous pair skaters, their real-life dramas, iconic movies like "Ice Castles," and how skating pairs’ relationships are spun into spectacle by media and fans.
• Scandal in the Rinks:
  • Recounting the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympic ice dancing scandal involving vote swapping, a French judge, and how both Russian and Canadian teams were ultimately awarded gold.
  • "If you watched it live, you thought, oh my God, they won. Absolutely. And then it emerged that this French judge…admitted that she was pressured... because there was some sort of vote swapping deal..."—Kate (06:39)
• Tonya Harding & Nancy Kerrigan Recap:
  • Revisiting the notorious attack on Nancy Kerrigan, the complex socioeconomic backgrounds of both skaters, and how the movie "I, Tonya" reframed Tonya Harding’s story.
  • "To this day, [Tonya] says, I did not know my husband was working with this other man to do this essentially for me. And I had no idea."—Heather (13:51)
  • The intense media and public reaction, particularly regarding Nancy Kerrigan’s post-Olympics "dumb and corny" Disneyland comment and media expectations of gratitude.
• Cultural Impact of Olympic Scandal:
  • Exploration of personal pride and family connections to the Olympics, and musings about nationalistic bias in judging and the possibility of behind-the-scenes deals affecting outcomes ("Of course there could be bribing and scandal and bias, blackmail and whatever…just so you win the medals…"—Heather, 08:20).

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2. The Accutane Case: Tragedy, Parenting, and Medication

[19:50–26:08]

• Synopsis of 48 Hours Mystery Case:
  • A tragic teen shooting involving Accutane, the depression it may have triggered, and discussions about access to firearms in homes with mental health risks.
  • "He begged his mom for a gun...She gave the 17-year-old a gun...Then he...whips out his gun and shoots his two friends in the head. I mean, it was just so weird."—Heather (20:14)
• Debating Accutane’s Role:
  • Acknowledging rare but documented side effects, and how singular, dramatic cases can alter public and personal perceptions of a medication.
  • "Once you hear a case like this, it can never shift your skepticism about something…because of it, I will never disentangle this story from someone using Accutane."—Kate (24:00)
• Parenting & Safety:
  • The challenge of parenting in the face of social pressures, safety concerns, and sons’ desires for grown-up privileges ("But then it's like, well, everybody else is doing it...And it's like, then you're that mom that has to tell your son no…"—Heather, 25:58).

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3. Ponzi Schemes, Scammers, and American Greed

[26:09–32:49]

• The Alan Stanford $7 Billion Ponzi Scheme:
  • Kate details Stanford’s rise from small-town Texan to Antiguan "Sir" and cricket tycoon, ultimately revealed as a massive fraudster.
  • "He gets knighted there...and he insists that everyone calls him Sir Alan Stanford now that he's been knighted. Like one of these people."—Kate (27:09)
  • Family intrigue: Stanford's "baby mama trust," multiple secret children, and a wife embroiled in his schemes.
• Culture of the Scam Artist:
  • Beverly Hills, Bernie Madoff, and the question of how scammers sleep at night.
  • "How does...someone sleep? I mean, I would be...I just had a nightmare that I was back in school and had a paper due. So I can't even imagine that you could just walk around."—Heather (31:31)
  • The psychology of charm and betrayal in white-collar crime, the impact on spouses, and questions of complicity.

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4. Madeleine McCann: Parenting, Grief, and Enduring Mystery

[32:49–47:44]

• The Disappearance Review:
  • Recap of the 2007 case: young British girl goes missing from a vacation resort while parents dined nearby. The recurring waves of suspicion, accusation (including toward the parents), and the impact of sensational worldwide attention.
• New Theories and Suspects:
  • Germany’s Christian Brückner emerges as a compelling suspect ("I think she was taken by a man by the name of Christian Brückner, who had been staying at a property nearby..."—Kate, 35:35), but with no confession.
• Parenting Reflections & Societal Shifts:
  • Heather and Kate reflect on how this case shifted people's comfort about child safety while vacationing; now, leaving kids alone, even with baby monitors, is unthinkable.
  • Empathetic analysis not only of parents’ grief, but also the impact on siblings—trauma's "long tail": "Can you imagine being the other kids in that family? ...and now those younger kids are obviously at an age to research anything they want."—Heather (42:01)
• Pop Culture Sidebar:
  • The phenomenon of shows like "What Would You Do?", public reaction, and the dangers (and necessity) of bystander intervention.

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5. Grief in the Media Age & Sibling Trauma

[47:45–56:38]

• Handling Grief Publicly:
  • Discussion of how public figures navigate anniversaries of loss and social media expectations: "Do I keep doing it every year? ...You do it for what you need."—Heather (57:19)
  • Elizabeth Edwards' book, the importance of asking bereaved people about their lost loved ones instead of avoiding the topic: "If someone is posting about the anniversary of someone’s birthday or a moment, we should be celebrating that and letting people lean into that, because that’s what they want."—Kate (61:54)
• Sibling Survivors:
  • From Bethenny Frankel’s ex-husband’s experience to Southern Charm’s Austin, the episode emphasizes how the siblings of missing or murdered children shoulder unique burdens and expectations (51:45–53:54).

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6. JonBenet Ramsey: Enduring Questions, Pageants & Media

[63:11–76:26]

• Pageantry and the JonBenet Effect:
  • Case changed public perceptions of child pageantry—"This case made me never understand why anybody moving forward wouldn’t put their children in pageants. 100%. It just totally shifted the way it was after this."—Kate (63:15)
  • Personal anecdotes about pageant culture, expense, and the media explosion of "Toddlers & Tiaras."
• Theories & Evidence:
  • Both reflect on the remaining mysteries:
    • "I think it was a stranger that knew enough about their family and went to take or wanted to kidnap her ... and then panicked and left her there when the note was already out and didn't take back the note…"—Heather (72:48)
    • Kate: "I cover so many [cases] where we revisit cases and the lens changes decade to decade...I’m hopeful that we will actually eventually have some sort of answer." (75:21)
  • Ongoing impact: True crime’s role in community-building, a sense of collective detective work, and the media’s relationship to tragedy ("...if this is your tragedy, it's like, well, we still want to find your child's killer, but we're going to bring it up again and we're going to do a salacious headline because that way we get the clicks…"—Heather, 69:10).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Olympic Fandom:
  "For three years and 10 months, no one talks about ice skating. And then the Olympics come and suddenly everybody's an expert and so fired up and so emotional."
  — Kate Casey [01:59]
• On True Crime & Human Nature:
  "Every episode is a reminder that even in our darkest moments, we're never really alone."
  — Heather McDonald [00:00]
• On the Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan Scandal:
  "To this day, [Tonya] says, I did not know my husband was working with this other man to do this essentially for me. And I had no idea."
  — Heather McDonald [13:51]
• On Medical Side Effects and Public Perception:
  "Once you hear a case like this, it can never shift your skepticism about something...because of it, I will never disentangle this story from someone using Accutane."
  — Kate Casey [24:00]
• On Parenting, Vacation, and Madeleine McCann:
  "I think [the McCann case] shifted forever the way people thought about going on vacation with children."
  — Kate Casey [36:01]
• On Children Left in Cars:
  "You hear one of those stories and you think about it, every time you're in a parking lot for the rest of your life, you're looking around...You can't unthink something once it's out there."
  — Kate Casey [45:02]
• On Grief & Remembrance:
  "If someone is posting about the anniversary of someone’s birthday or a moment, we should be celebrating that and letting people lean into that, because that’s what they want."
  — Kate Casey [61:54]
• On JonBenet and Public Fascination:
  "I feel like it's like our JFK. Yeah. Like, we're never gonna get an answer."
  — Kate Casey [68:24]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:17–11:00]: Skating culture and Olympic scandals
• [11:15–14:41]: Tonya Harding & Nancy Kerrigan case deep dive
• [19:50–26:08]: Accutane, mental health, and gun safety case
• [26:09–32:49]: The Stanford Ponzi scheme and scam culture
• [32:49–47:44]: The disappearance of Madeleine McCann & public reactions
• [47:45–56:38]: Grief, siblings, and social media mourning
• [63:11–76:26]: JonBenet Ramsey mystery, theories, and pop culture aftermath

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Tone and Style

Heather and Kate balance a conversational, often humorous, sometimes poignant tone. They move fluidly from pop-culture tangents to serious true crime discussion, always anchoring their commentary in empathy and real-life reflection. The episode is as much about the emotional aftershocks of crime as the facts themselves.

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Final Thoughts

This episode weaves together famous unsolved mysteries, the cultural landscape they influenced, and the very human stories of the people left behind. It serves as both a nostalgic look back and a relevant reflection on how we consume, and sometimes live, true crime—reminding us of the weight such stories carry for those directly affected.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Do you ever meet someone and think, wow, they've really been through it, and then realize, we all have. That's what we're All Insane is all about. It's a podcast where real people sit down to share their stories that have shaped them. The raw, unfiltered moments that don't usually make it into everyday conversation. There are no scripts, no interruptions, and no filters. Just honest storytelling that unfolds naturally, from heartbreak and loss to recovery and resilience. Every episode is a reminder that even in our darkest moments, we're never really alone. If you love hearing real stories that make you feel something, stories that connect us all, this is one you'll want to subscribe to. You can listen to We're All Insane wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Sunday.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I have your favorite Kate Casey from Reality Life with Kate Casey podcast. She covers so many things on her show, but one thing she also covers are Juicy Crimes and documentaries. And so we love to talk about it. So I wanted to have her back. Welcome back, Kate Casey.

[Kate Casey]

Thank you for having me. Glad to be back.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Well, you know, there's a lot going on in the world, and in coming together with what to talk about on this show, I was like, let's revisit some old crimes, some skating crimes. And being that it's the Olympics and we only got a week left of it, let's milk it out for what it is. So let's just start out in the fun memory of Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding. You were just saying about ice skating, that I thought was a really kind of profound statement. When it comes to Olympics, it's like.

[Kate Casey]

For three years and 10 months, no one talks about ice skating. And then the Olympics come and suddenly everybody's an expert and so fired up and so emotional. I mean, even the partnerships, people get so fired up about the relationships. And in most cases, the skaters are not in romantic relationships.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Oh, you mean when they. The doubles or the pairs, the ice.

[Kate Casey]

Dancing or the pair skating. And people are so invest into these relationships and they all know each other. That's another thing. Yeah, they all have been on the same ice rink, you know, in competitions or even practicing. So the relationships go back like in the. In the last competition last night. Those pairs, most of them have known each other for like 15 years.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And I mean, you're. Do you remember the movie Ice Castles?

[Kate Casey]

Oh, yeah. I just saw a clip of it.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

The other day because of course it's going around. And that was with Robbie Benson, who was so cute. He was like, before Rob Lowe.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And he was the little heartthrob. And he. I'm trying to remember the story, but the girl is an ice skater, but then somehow she becomes blind.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

But they have to keep it a secret in order for her to skate. I'm like, why would you keep that a secret? Like, if that was. If that was today and you were turn blind and you could still ice skate, that would be the biggest thing. You'd have a million sponsorships. You'd be the blind skater. So they had to keep it a secret. And then she goes at the end and she does her twirls and ends. And everyone thinks she's so great that then they start throwing single roses, which.

[Kate Casey]

I don't think has ever happened since. In a competition.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah. And then Robbie's like, oh, my God, we forgot about the roses. And she stumbles on them. And everyone's like, why is she stumbling on them? And it's like, ew, she's blah.

[Kate Casey]

Well, remember, she falls in the ice, and then she's padding around herself, like, yeah. Like, she's done all these twizzles, but then suddenly is discombobulated by a couple roses on the ice. Like, what do I do? Where am I? That made no sense either. But it was this love story. And then the music starts playing. Yeah. And everyone's like, oh, for the love. It's the greatest couple ever.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Song is so great. Like, I hear it in my head, but I don't know. Can you sing it? I don't know if I can remember how to sing.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, totally.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I could, like, hear it. And he comes out, he's like, I'll help you. You know? Now she can't skate at all.

[Kate Casey]

No, now.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Now she's like, me on skates. It is an amazing movie that just, like, every girl loved. And it was like this, you know, because we were watching it, like, you know, when we were little kids. So we were like, oh, my gosh. And so I. You know, from Southern California, there was an ice skating rink at the Topanga Mall. And we would attempt. And it was so, like, in the.

[Kate Casey]

Middle of the mall.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yes.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, wow.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And then they got rid of it. And so then if you were going to pursue any kind of ice skating or hockey or whatever, it just wasn't happening in Woodland Hills. Like, you'd have to get. Go really far to, like, North Hollywood or whatever. But every time the skating would come, it just looks so easy. Like, I swear, if someone said what would you want your superpower to be? I think I would just like to feel what it's like to be an ice skater. That good. Like, just put me in the body. You probably can do it now with, like, those masks or whatever and just make me feel it, because it's like I love being in a roller coaster. So it's like I just feel like I'd be in a roller. The fact that they can do it, but it always looks. They just make it look so easy.

[Kate Casey]

So anyway, do you remember the couple that was beloved in Russia? Ekaterina Gordieva and her husband Sergey?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Kind of.

[Kate Casey]

And they were, like, super gorgeous, and they were gold medalists, like, no one could beat them. Married. And when he was 23, he had a heart attack and died. They had a little girl and he died. It was like the entire world broke down.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Did he die? Like, not on the ice?

[Kate Casey]

I think he died on the ice. So I'm getting my hair done one day, and my hairdresser Andrew says, oh, because we were talking about ice skating. He said, oh, you know, one of my clients, she was like a gold medalist. I went, don't even. Don't even. Don't even tell me. And he said, yeah, Katerina. I was like, what? That love story. I mean, it's like, it's. All these years later. Wow. She lives in Southern California and Canada. She married, which is about. Oh, I'm gonna jump to in a minute. There's a Canadian skater named David Peltier, and he was a part of this Olympic scandal. She ended up marrying him.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

What Olympic scandal?

[Kate Casey]

Meddling is a peacock documentary about ice dancing. So in 2002, in the finals, the Russians beat out the Canadians, and everybody assumed that the Canadians would win. If you watched it live, you thought, oh, my God, they won. Absolutely. And then it emerged that this French judge had been. She admitted that she was pressured by her Olympic committee or whatever to give the Russians the win because there was some sort of vote swapping deal, like Russia would help France out. And so it exposed the scandal, and then they ended up giving them both the gold. The Russians and the Canadians. And by the way, the Russian girl skater in 1996 had been skating with her partner, and he went to do the twist and sliced her skull. It went into her brain, and she lost, like, motor skills and speech for a little while, and she had this whole comeback, which is unbelievable. Gets to the Olympics, skates, wins the gold medal. And then it turns out that the judge from France had this whole deal. And so she ended up getting keeping the gold but had to share it with the Canadians. So it was just this entire scandal. But you can watch. There's a documentary about it. You can watch it.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I mean, you know, when you think about, I saw somebody bring this up and I'm like, that is weird, you know, because now everything, now everything is. That is weird. That is weird that, you know, Ghislaine Maxwell's dad owned all the books that we learned from school. That is weird. That life touches. That was everybody's photo was taken by LifeTouch. And you had to get your photo taken by LifeTouch in school. Whether you wanted to buy the extra photos or not is also owned by somebody else that's involved in this. You know, Ring and Epstein, like everything is connected and weird. But someone brought this up like a couple years ago and it was like, I always wondered how the Olympics was always able to be pulled off if we're at war with all these different countries and people are at war. How they were able to come together just to cheer on some people running. Like, it just makes me wonder at all. And like, and I always did think that, like, if I was the judge of gymnastics, I mean, I'm going to be rooting for our girls. Like I'm going to be like, well, I think it is this good. Or I'll give them a tenth of a point. A little higher. Like it never made. Like it never really made. Of course there could be bribing and scandal and bias, blackmail and whatever and finding out just so you win the medals and you have the most medals. And you know, like there was that whole, that other famous hockey story which was when USA hated Russia during the 80s. Oh no, it played them.

[Kate Casey]

It was the best. Did you watch the doc they just put out?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

No, but I remember the story when it happened and I remember the made for, not made for tv. I think it was a full blown movie miracle, miracle that they, the USA won and it was just like, ah, like that was our basically, you know, World War 3 against Russia is that we beat them in this, you know, hockey game.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, they were college students too. They weren't even pros that played.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Oh.

[Kate Casey]

So that's an even better part of the story is that not only did we win against this country that we're in like basically about to, you know, we're in the Cold War, but it was college kids.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Wow. So, yeah, and yeah, that was. Yeah, it's just, it's just like, it's so crazy. Yeah. So getting back to the ice skating. Oh, and then someone said, you don't even make a big deal out of, you know, like make a bigger deal out of charge. Charlie McAvoy, who is my cousin, who plays for the Boston Bruins, who is on the Hockey USA team. I'm like, I feel like I mentioned it a lot and so I just was like, I'm not. I think it's incredible. Like I am like imagining my dad and his sister, who is Charlie's grandma, like in heaven. Like, can you frickin believe that? This is like crazy. So all of it is pretty amazing, but this story happened with Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding. And I know you guys know the famous story, but just to quickly remind you, also, this happened right when I started doing standup. So it was like really kind of great to like talk about a topical thing and express it on stage. But they were both, you know, skaters and it was who was gonna make the team. But the really, the biggest thing, there was a great movie made with who was the actress that played Tanya's mother? That's.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, Allison Janney.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah, Allison Janney was amazing. And it was really so interesting, which I didn't realize at the time, but did afterwards, and especially when the movie came out, that there was such a socioeconomic division between who Tonya Harding was and. And Nancy Kerrigan. Not that Nancy was so wealthy or anything.

[Kate Casey]

No, actually she comes from no money.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Actually her dad worked several jobs, her mom was legally blind and would sometimes work part time jobs. They actually both did not come from money, which is interesting because the sport costs so much money.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

But they kind of made it that maybe it wasn't about money, but they made it that, you know, it is such a beautiful sport and this. You're really looking at women's bodies. Okay. And you do that with gymnastics as well, right. And, oh, look at those little butts. And I mean, it's really weird, you know, when you think about it. But anyway, this is what it is and it's televised. And especially Olympics was, I think, a much, much, much bigger deal 30 years ago than it is today. Because we. You'd sit around, you'd plan on it, you'd be like, oh my God, can we get off work early so we can watch this? Can we watch it as a family? We're going to have a party now. It's like, you know, everyone's just on their phones. But just that Carrie, Nancy Kerrigan had more like the body, the lean body, the look of what it was. But Tonya essentially Was better as far as that she could do the more difficult jumps and tricks and everything. And Nancy was more graceful. Yeah. And the story is so crazy is that Tonya Harding had a husband who had a friend who went to. While they. While Nancy was practicing and while she was coming off the ice and going, you know, back to, like, her locker room or whatever, this man jumped out with a metal rod and attacked her and banged on her leg so that hopefully she wouldn't be able to perform, make the team, leaving it open for Tonya Harding to make the team and win the gold. And so it was such a weird thing, and nobody knew what happened. And who is this guy? And then, of course, they track the connection back to Tanya, to this day, says, I did not know that my husband was working with this other man to do this essentially for me. And I had no idea.

[Kate Casey]

Well, first, the craziest thing is they were actually exes at that point.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

They had broken up.

[Kate Casey]

They had broken up, but he had been perceived as her manager over a period of time. If you watch the movie, you find out her mother was abusive, and then she was in this domestic violence situation with him. And so even though they had broken up or they had divorced, he still had financial investment in her. In fact, she was the breadwinner for most of their relationship. So he concocts this scheme because he's thinking, if she wins the gold, she's gonna get all these sponsorship deals and he can still get some of the money. Yeah, but what. She claimed she didn't know about the plan, Tanya, but she participated in the COVID up afterwards. So she got probation and a huge fine, like $160,000.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

But they do. But she recovers. Nancy recovers in time for the Olympics. And they do both go to the Olympics. And. And I just remember there was this one time, so Tanya's gonna go out there and something happens and she. Something went wrong with her thing. And she's lifts up her leg and she's like crying, saying that, like, her shoelace was untied or something. And she. I remember someone describing it as like a Charlie Chaplin film because she was like, her leg was up here and she's like acting like this. And everyone's like, well, I mean, you're a professional skater. Shouldn't you know how to, like, tie your skate before you go out there? And in the end, Nancy got the silver, right? And somebody, I want to say, not from America, got the gold. And then, you know, okay, great. America's sweetheart won. She deserves to win or She. I don't know if she did deserve to win. Who knows what some skating person would say, because they always said Tanya was, you know, the one that would really do the faster, bigger things. So then Nancy goes, you know, after post Olympics to Disneyland, and she's on a float and she has her medical medal, and she's like. And she, you know, people, again, making fun of everyone's looks. And she was very pretty, but she had, you know, big teeth. And so she's like. And she says, this is so stupid. Or something. Stupid.

[Kate Casey]

Dumb and corny.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah, this is so dumb and corny to somebody. And they, you know, get the deaf girl to mouth. Read it and say what she did. And it was just, now everyone hates Nancy. Now we don't care that you were attacked with a poll. You didn't like Disneyland.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, she took a big hit on that one.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah. Or you were ungrateful. You should be so grateful that you got to go to Disneyland for free and hold your medal and take a thousand pictures after you won. Like, you're such an ungrateful little shit. And then didn't she. I want to say that she, like, married her. Much older.

[Kate Casey]

She did.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And he might have been married when they started to get together, or maybe not. Whatever people say. But he was much older, and he was like her manager or her ice skating coach or something.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, he was like. Like a salt. Salt and pepper hair.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

He seemed. I'm gonna say his name was Jerry.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

So it was a little unconventional.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Scandal.

[Kate Casey]

But they're still together.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah. Well, then. Yeah, that says a lot. So that's probably not. But I think people are just always looking for something.

[Kate Casey]

Do you know how weird I am? I'm like, going back in time. I'm like. I think one of her. Chill. I think she has a son named Brian. It's like, I read it once and then I never forget it.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

So stupid and dumb and corny.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Right. And I kind of. Yeah. So with. With the ice skating, you know, where you go. There was, you know, through there was. I want to say it was, you know, Dorothy Hamill haircut. That's, like, very. That's old for us. That's even old for me. But, like, there was just. It was always just such a thing.

[Kate Casey]

People get so invested. Like, remember, no one would talk about ice skating. But then all of a sudden, it was like, Katarina Vit. Like, everyone was obsessed with her.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Right.

[Kate Casey]

Just like Michelle Kwan, actually. In Southern California, there are a ton of ice skating rinks now, and there are a lot of Olympians that practice or train in Southern California, which is so interesting. Remember Sasha Cohen? Yes, she lives in my town, too.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I was always able to. I could manage rollerblading. Yeah, no one talks about rollerblading anymore.

[Kate Casey]

Close your eyes. Exhale.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class.

[Kate Casey]

I got them delivered free from. From 1-800-contacts.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

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[Kate Casey]

Experian. I think that I would be a great Olympic speed skater. And that's based on the fact that I'm a really good speed walker. But I don't like being cold.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

So it's. I don't. It's not gonna work.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And that was kind of cute, that.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

What's the YouTuber's name? Paul.

[Kate Casey]

Jake. Paul.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Jake. Paul's fiance. The beautiful girl is a speed skater, which I wouldn't think, like, because it just takes so much. I don't know. You just wouldn't think that she looks like. Would be, like, a blonde. She looks like she should be a sports illustrator.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And she won a gold medal.

[Kate Casey]

Amazing.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

That was, like, really cute.

[Kate Casey]

He was crying.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah, it was cute.

[Kate Casey]

I love that.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

All right, now, this story was in 48 Hour Mystery, and I have to bring it up because everybody let me know. And it's a very sad story, but one of the reasons it was brought to my attention is that the mother of the criminal in the story is a juicy scooper. And I know that because, sadly, the night of this tragic crime, she was wearing the Juicy scooper T shirt.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And I was like, ugh. The story is interesting, though. Very tragic. But then we'll get into what makes it interesting. But this young kid who, very polite, seems to be raised very well, had this like, you know, would get like these cystic bumps on his arms, not even on his face. So it wasn't like your typical, you know, pimply like face. It was a dermatological, whatever, derma situation on his arms. So he got put on the Accutane and then was dealing with depression. Everything went off of it and then it came back and it was so uncomfortable that then he went back on it at a lower dose. But he, you know, was struggling with depression and suicidal and homicidal thoughts. So randomly, just one night, he unfortunately had a gun. Which is what is always the thing. Like this is why if you think you have any kind of mental illness living in your home or young kids or whatever, it's like you shouldn't have a gun around, you know, because. So he begged his mom for a gun and she was like, okay, I know in different parts of the world people are more gun savvy, whatever. She gave the 17 year olds a gun. And his two, his three friends came over, invited a bunch of people over. They were the first to show up. And according to the one boy that wasn't hurt, he was on crutches. He was 15. He had to go right to the bathroom. So he went to the bathroom and as he's like going to the bathroom, he hears and sees that this boy on the Accutade just whips out his gun and shoots his two friends in the head. I mean, it was just so weird. So luckily that kid locked the door and called 911 and one of the boys passed and one is forever handicapped, but can talk and knows what's going on and can walk, but forever handicapped. And. And so then it comes down to why they did a 40 hour mystery on it was does Accutane, did Accutane drive him to this place? And it's just, you know, I. So about 20 years ago I knew somebody who's. I'm going to try to just keep it so people can't like put it together. They, they had a young person in their family end their life with a gun. Really out of nowhere.

[Kate Casey]

Wow.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Had friends, had. There was a little bit of a reason to it. And then he left a note, but it was just like an argument with another friend. It wasn't anything that anybody would. But he, there was, you know, a gun in the home and then. And he knew how to use it, whatever. And it was so Terrible. But right after it happened, and this was well over 20 years ago, I remember my friend saying, you know, they think there's a connection to Accutane and that there is a connection, you know, with. There's been many cases where it just. It's not everybody. A lot of people go on it. But then again, in the description of it, when they give those long things, it does say depression, trouble sleeping, suicidal and homo homicidal thoughts. So the defense was going to go and you know, make that a thing when in the end he did a plea deal and didn't go to trial. It's just such a tragic story.

[Kate Casey]

I think this is one of these cases too, where once you hear a case like this, it can never shift your skepticism about something.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Like Accutane. Because of it. I will never disentangle this story from someone using Accutane. And it's an unfortunate, you know, byproduct.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Of, I mean, I just. Circumstance, you know, I know people that have taken it and it's done wonders and they haven't had any of these issues. I would just say if you were going to put your kid on it or yourself to really be highly aware of that and maybe even if you can afford it, go, okay, we're going to put our child on Accutane. But I want them to check in with like a therapist every week. Maybe something, I don't know, like it was. But also. And also not have any kind of weapons of finality like in your home. Like, it was just, it was really. It was just so depressing and then. But, you know, the prosecutors were saying, no, he, you know, there was some planning and there was some thoughts and there was some social media and all that. But that could also go with the fact that he was feeling all this.

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And definitely was very remorseful, you know, once it was over and just, just like. So it's like such a sad one. But, you know, I just thought I should address it here just because so many people were like, oh my God, that's just so bizarre. And just like what's sad is like when you're like, oh my gosh, this is, you know, a relatable woman in every way. And yes, she made the mistake of thinking her son at that age. You know, these things kids want now gun is the ultimate dangerous. But you know, kids riding the, the suron bikes that are not 16 yet.

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Like, helmets are not like. But then it's like, well, everybody else is doing it.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

You know, and it's like, then you're that mom that has to tell your son no and. Or you can't have a cell phone, or you can't be on this video game or all of that.

[Kate Casey]

Parenting is not easy.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

It sucks. Okay, I want you to tell me about this Ponzi scheme that you are knowledgeable of, because I love an American type story.

[Kate Casey]

I thought you'd be into this one. Okay, so he's from Texas. He's kind of from a small town. And he. People say he had that personality, like, I'm going places, like, I'm leaving you losers behind. So he starts his first business. It's like a gym, and it fails. And then he starts working for his father. By the way, his name's Alan Stanford. So he starts working for his father doing, like, real estate. Real estate investment. He makes his first million, and he's, like, living the high life. He gets married to a woman in 1975, and she's like a dental hygienist. And she's from the South. She's from Texas, too. Very sweet. Gets involved in charity, and they are just living it. And she's got access to private jets and all of this stuff. And then he's multiplying the money.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

She has access to private jets because of the. Of the business?

[Kate Casey]

Yes.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Okay.

[Kate Casey]

The success. And she's leaning heavily into the charity world. And he's becoming more and more braggadocious and obnoxious. He starts a business and then has a home in Antigua, and he gets knighted there because of the tourism that he was bringing, because he invested in a cricket team and all of these businesses. And he insists that everybody calls him Sir Alan Stanford now that he's been knighted. Like one of these people.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Well, like Lord Disick.

[Kate Casey]

Like that. Like Sir.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I feel like Lord Disick finally. Like, he kind of has left that.

[Kate Casey]

Let that go.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

So if you're like, hey, Alan, what's going on? You'd be like, it's Sir Alan. Remember that? Don't you forget that. Oh, he was at one point listed and Forbes.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

So with the way the sir thing works, it really is that. That you're just like, delight, like Sir Elton John, or you contribute so much to the country or Sir Richard Branson, they just throw it on you.

[Kate Casey]

It's like you have to provide some creative investment or financial investment that forever changes culture, like a Sir David Beckham. Or in his case, he brought all of this financial investment and tourism to Antigua because he invested in this cricket business. By the way, cricket is A sport that takes a long time to play. And he had this brilliant idea that he was going to change the rules of the game of cricket and make it a four hour game or tournament and then it would be televised. So he's setting a pattern like, I can change the rules to what I want, I'm above the rules, I set the rules, etc. Well, then it's revealed that all of this investment that he had created all these businesses, it was a 7 billion dollar Ponzi scheme where he would invest in CDs and he would get all of these friends to invest and then there weren't really any. It was like paying Paul to pay Piper, you know, Paul paying the, you know.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Thank you. Classic made off strategy, stealing from Peter.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Pay Paul.

[Kate Casey]

Thank you.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

So it was a $7 billion Ponzi scheme and then he gets sentenced. And he's. What I thought you would find interesting too is so they were married in 1975, but they were separated for like 10 years. In the meantime, he fathers six children while he's married to his wife and some of them are employees. And he created like a trust, like a baby mama trust, where he would pay for their lifestyle, buy them homes and all of this and pay for their education, like complete sleazebag in all parts of his life.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

So the question people had in Texas was how much did she know of this Ponzi scheme? And because why did it take her forever to divorce him when he's fathering all these children with other women? Like, were you in it for the money? Did you know about it? Like, to what degree do some of these spouses in these Ponzi schemes know about what's going on?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

So what happened in the end?

[Kate Casey]

He went to jail. He's in jail still? Oh, yeah. He's been there for the rest of his life. He's in, I believe, a detention center or, excuse me, a prison in Florida.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And do you know how much money she got to keep of this lifestyle?

[Kate Casey]

Well, it was like this very interesting financial divorce kind of strategy where she was still trying to get access to private jet use, et cetera, even though he's been indicted and charged and then, you know, goes off to prison and fighting for money. But it was like money that what they didn't even own in the, in the first place. So I don't know, kind of off the rails story.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I think it's always so interesting, like a Ponzi kind of a thing, whether it's, you know, Erika Jayne's Husband or Madoff or whatever. And like once it starts and you're literally like going around and people are like, oh no, he's so great. And you're making the fake checks and you know, well, this is your investment. And when, like, how does some. I always am. Like, how do you even sleep?

[Kate Casey]

Like, I know.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I mean, I would be. Sometimes I still have nightmares. And I just had one last night that like I was back in school and like had a paper due and didn't know where it was, or I have a nightmare where like I can't find my purse or my wallet, you know, those type of things. So I can't even imagine that you could just like walk around. Like when I think about like the Bernie Madoff thing, like just him being in this office all day with nothing, really, he's not doing anything, right? He's just like not, he's just investing, not investing the money and just like, what did you think was gonna happen?

[Kate Casey]

I think they just think that the rules don't apply to them. They just. And they're never gonna get caught. And a lot of times I don't think they do get caught.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

It's just such a, it's such a weird, like scammable thing. Like, I love that about American greed. Like those stories just like this man came into this small town and wooed all the church goers and like just the charmingness of a scammer is like.

[Kate Casey]

And, and again, like you said, you can get your family, even your own family members to invest in something while you know the entire time, like it's not based on a, on a real business, right?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Just insane. This is one that's kind of popping up in the news again. This is the sad story of missing. Missing Madeline McCann. McCann. I was going to say McCann. McCann. And to remind you guys, this was the story of this English couple who were vacationing in Portugal at a resort with their four year old daughter Madeline. And they're like two year old twins, daughters, I think they were born and they're having a great time. They were there for a week and at night they would put their kids to sleep and then they would walk like a. How far? It was like a. It was like a block maybe, maybe it was not like next door.

[Kate Casey]

It was like in the, in the, in the store.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

It was in the community, it was in the resort community. But they would like leave their hotel room like any. Just imagine if you're at a hotel, leave them, then go down and drink wine with these other adults. They met and have, like, a nice dinner and. But then throughout the dinner, so they claim one of them would go and check on the kids and then come back. So on this one particular night, I believe it was the husband's turn to go back and check. And the twins are fine, but Madeline was gone.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And there have been so many, you know, datelines and 48 hour mysteries on it. And this happened, like, I want to say it's almost close to, like, 20 years now, probably.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

There have been girls throughout the years that have claimed to be her. Like, I'm the grown version. And then they do DNA tests or whatever, and they realize, no, this is just like a thirsty weirdo or she. Maybe these girls truly think I could be her. One thing about her, she has a very distinct eye. So it's her left eye, and it's like the black of the pupil, their green eyes is like a line goes down. And so that is a really distinct thing that wouldn't change with age and. And with. She's yet to be found. Again, it's one of those missing child theories where you go from, was it a strange. Was it a stranger? Was it someone there at the place? Was it someone who worked there? Was it the parents? Did they accidentally or purposely end their child's life and did something with the body and tried to hide it? Did they, you know, even more sinister stuff? Do they. Do they allow it to happen? Did they know the people that did it and they've lied all these years? What is your theory of where she. What happened to her?

[Kate Casey]

I think 60 Minutes Australia had a really compelling piece, and I think she was taken by a man by the name of Christian Bruckner, who had been staying at a property nearby. So I would encourage people to look that up on YouTube. You can watch the whole piece. The thing that I find compelling about this story, too much like the Accutane story, is I think it shifted forever the way people thought about going on vacation with children.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Like, I don't think anybody ever lived the same way after this story. It's so heartbreaking. No.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And it's like, even Chris Frangella sometimes would, like, mention that. He's like, we've been on vacations. They have one daughter. And he's like. And, you know, they'd want to, like, whatever, like, get a drink. She's asleep at 8, you know, and. And they're like, oh, my God, imagine if we were like them and did that, you know, and you think, oh, it's fine. Like, or. Or, you know, Even people. There was another story where a couple. Where people would rely on the baby cams or whatever.

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And. Oh, as long as that's on, I can. There was a couple in New York that I remember that happened, but they went, like, full on, like, they got.

[Kate Casey]

Wasted, and they, like, went in a.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Cab and went down the street to a restaurant. It wasn't, like, in the resort.

[Kate Casey]

And wasn't the husband connected to ABC News? Was he a reporter or.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

She was.

[Kate Casey]

She was, yes. One of them was. Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And what happened with the child? No, no, the child was fine. But somehow they realized they saw something on the camera and they panicked. So in alerting authorities to, like, make sure their child was okay is how they basically told on themselves.

[Kate Casey]

And I think they took their kids away from them, maybe. Was that what it was?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah. I mean, there's been stories where. Yeah. Where there was a couple that was so sad, but they were, like, in the armed forces but, like, working, and they had a child and they would, like, leave it in the crib with, like, some bottles. What? I mean, it's just. I. It's like. And think that it would be okay. Like, I just want to save a couple bucks on, like, child care. Like, what? Yeah. But I definitely agree. I think anybody that ever thought that that was okay. But there was a lot of really compelling things to make you wonder. Did a stranger just take this child? One was the mother immediately washed her toy, like her stuffed animal, like, while she was at the resort. Now, most people want to, like, keep the scent of their child, not just for a case, but just even if, you know your child has passed whatever, you just want to, like, not have that touched or. Yeah, and so that was odd. There was, you know, dogs. You know, dogs that do the sniffing and things where it didn't match up, like, what their story was, where there's always been people thinking it was them. She did write a book, and in the book, she. Some would say there's a part that makes you wonder, like, what kind of a mother would say this, where she talks about her worst thoughts and she verbalized them to somebody about what could happen to her daughter with a horrible man that, you know, wants to use her for, you know, to essay or whatever. And some people were like, the way she wrote that. And other people would say, yeah, but she's being honest. She's being honest about the horrible thoughts.

[Kate Casey]

And that makes me think of, like, the Amanda Knox story. Is that in reflection all these years later, now you have missing puzzle pieces that she wasn't given access to attorney. She did not know the language.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Well, right.

[Kate Casey]

Things that she said were taken out of context.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

One little emotional, like kissing her boyfriend. Looks like she doesn't care or like. Yeah. Or anything like that. But I mean, the amount they, they have, you know, always kept showing up and everything. So now the latest is that, you know, there's so much out there about what's in the Epstein files and whatnot. And there is this footage that's going around right around the time that she went missing where a short haired, dark.

[Kate Casey]

Haired woman, but that was disproved. That was another woman with a daughter.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yes. So it's like people just thinking that, you know, like they thought maybe it was Ghislaine. Like did Ghislaine show up and you know, was collecting these kids around the world? Well, sure. Now what we know the depth of everything and how many people were involved. You are like, wait, let's look at some of these missing cases and see if there's any kind of connection. But with this man that you said that the 60 Minutes did it on Australia. Why do they think it was him and where is he today?

[Kate Casey]

I believe he's in prison now.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Was he like a serial kidnapper?

[Kate Casey]

He was like a serial predator. And they went to the property in which he had been staying and there was a lot of child pornography and it's pretty dark.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

So what do they think happened? That he got her and ended her life shortly after.

[Kate Casey]

Maybe not even shortly thereafter.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Uh huh. Like right away. Yeah, yeah, it's, it is a, it is one of those stories that just makes you. So they think that's the evidence. But he's never admitted it.

[Kate Casey]

No, but do they ever, you know.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Oh, I know. Or sometimes these criminals that are doing like full life in prison, they just, they sometimes want the attention of it.

[Kate Casey]

They taunt for it.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah, yeah. And they kind of, they want, they, they've got nothing to do all day, so they're like, yeah, I will do an interview. Yeah, I will go on tv. What, what does it matter to them? I don't care what their image is out there. They want people to.

[Kate Casey]

I think they get a sick, some get a sick excitement out of torturing a family too.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. I'm just thinking of like, okay, so. So that, yeah, this was them. And they, you know, they. Now I feel like it's been. We haven't heard from them in a long time, but they would, they would show up and can you imagine being.

[Kate Casey]

The other kids in that family?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I Always think about that and knowing that you had a sister and knowing. And now those younger kids are obviously at an age to research anything they want. See the criticism of, like, the parenting mistake of. I always remember watching, and I always was like, that's pretty far.

[Kate Casey]

I know.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I always thought it was pretty far of leaving the place. But I also remember the desire during those years to want to have a drink and be with adults because it was like, it was so few and far between that you'd have that time. And if maybe they were doing it too. Like, we never knew. Were those other parents being like, oh, my God, no, it's fine. We meet here every day at 8:30. The kids are out. They're tired from running around. Like, you know, just go and check.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And I don't remember if they had, like, not locked the door or left it unlocked. Maybe they. Because I remember the guy went, like, would check the slider and go in. And this wasn't the first time they did it. So you do it once and it goes smooth and you're like, great, now we can, like, have our fun.

[Kate Casey]

For all they know, there's somebody that's just watching all of their movements and watching them. Like, Elizabeth Smart told me that when I think I brought this up to you, that man, Brian David Mitchell saw her in the street and decided, like, I want her.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Right.

[Kate Casey]

So that could have happened in this case.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

But also, I'm always reminded that we have confirmation bias. You know, once we hear a story and we know the moving parts, it's easy for us to go, okay, I would never leave my kids that far away. But it's only. We get that feeling because we know what happened in this situation.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Right? Yeah. And that people don't think about. Yeah. Sometimes someone doesn't think about it. Like, I had. I had a friend once that said that, you know, she came home and her husband was watching her kid and she was like. And this is like, before you could get like, Uber Eats delivered and stuff. And she's like, when did you go to Jojo's Tacos or whatever? And she. He's like, today. What time? She's like, how did you do that with the baby? And he was like, no, I just, you know, she was sleeping. I just jumped in the car.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, my God.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Got it. And they were a young couple and she like, read in the riot act. Sure. And you know, again, what if there was a fire? What if there was an earthquake? What if something happened to you? What if you got in a car accident? Like, what if, what if, what if? And that's where, you know, these people are intelligent, they're college educated, but also a man. But, like, yeah, it's that same type of thing of like, well, this will be real. I'll be so quick, and, you know, no problem, and it'll be fine, and that kind of thing. And it's just. And like, yeah, the surveillance is not enough. And you can't just, you know, take the thing.

[Kate Casey]

Well, the stories of kids left in cars. You hear one of those stories and you think about it, every time you're in a parking lot for the rest of your life, you're looking around for other cars. Like, is there a child in there? You can't unthink something once it's out there.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I remember the story on Oprah, and I want to say, either I didn't have kids yet, or I was close to having them. I don't know. It freaked me out so much because everybody's forgetful. Everybody, you know, or has put a coffee cup on their. On the roof of their car and driven off and.

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

You know, and actually, when I was, like, working on, like, this prank show, or what we hoped would be a prank show, I think it was like, Pilot, I was like, you know how people put their, like, purse on their car? Like, my mom had done that, like, or coffee cup or whatever, and then drive off because you're just, like, so overwhelmed, and you're like, I always. I always thought it would be funny, which. Not now, but, you know, comedy is about the time and relevancy. And this was. I thought, oh, it'd be funny to do, like, a hidden camera thing where you have a fake baby.

[Kate Casey]

No, they did. They did that on MTV and put.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

It on the roof.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah. Bam Margera's show, Jackass.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Oh, they did.

[Kate Casey]

They did that. Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Oh, well, I guess Friday.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah. Johnny Knoxville. Yep.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Well, my other idea was to then also the stairs in Santa Monica. The steps.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, yeah. Is.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I was like, I wonder if you just, you know, left your baby on the step and then was like, can you just like, watch? Right. It's like, really need to get my steps in. And you go down and up. Like, see how people, like, react kind of like, what would you do?

[Kate Casey]

Right, Right, right, right. John Quinones. Those.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

What would you. Oh, my God. We were obsessed with what. What would you do? Where it's like, do you think if.

[Kate Casey]

You see John Quinones out about. You're like, oh, God, I think that.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Show finally ended because I think people Realize, like, this isn't going to work, that this family is, like, being to each other and talking extremely loud.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Like, it was always, you know, and then. And then.

[Kate Casey]

Or it's like a restaurant, but there are only, like, two patrons in the restaurant.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I always wanted to do, like, a. Like a fake one of that, too, like, but those things are hard to do. But I always. You know, where it was always, like, a kid, like, coming out and being like, I'm gay. And the parents were like, well, you're not having lunch. But wait, I just. No, you're not. You're disgusting. We're kicking out of the house today. I'm repulsed. And then they get up and the kid's like. And then lady's like, I'll buy you a tuna fish sandwich. I have a gay grandson. You come over here, you know, and then it's like, why did you want to buy him that tuna fish sandwich? I'm like, oh, my God.

[Kate Casey]

But in the meantime, I'm like, crying. I'm like, this is horrible.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And I'm always wondering, like, if now if somebody. If that does happen, if someone's just having, like, a major moment. Loud. You're like, okay, I know John Kenotis is here.

[Kate Casey]

Let me just.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Let me go be a hero. Let me buy their meal. Then they're like, wait, okay, so you buy someone else's meal. And then you're like, wait, where's the. Where's John Kennedis?

[Kate Casey]

Do you have a personality that you. Because my husband always says, I'm not passive aggressive. I'm aggressive aggressive. So I would probably go over and confront. And then it would be like a disaster. Because you don't know in real life what somebody, you know.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Right.

[Kate Casey]

Is packing, if you will, like, or what they're going to do to you if you get involved. So it's a. It's a slippery slope.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah. No, I've definitely, like, I've called the police on things that I've seen.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

But I have not. I'm like, thinking, have I really? I think I've been like. When someone's been treated poorly by, like, another person or, like, someone working behind the counter, I've been like. Like, I try to make light of it, like, what a dick. You know, like, you know, let me give you a better tip or whatever. If it's someone being lame.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

You know, that's probably it. Like, I haven't really. I do. I do feel like it's not safe to totally get involved in things.

[Kate Casey]

I just don't know now.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

No. Like, I remember I was walking one of my kids in the stroller, and I saw, like, kind of a domestic violence kind of a thing happen, like, where the guy's, like, screaming at the girl. And I was, like, on the phone with my parents or my mom, and I'm just talking. I'm like, oh, my God. And then they got so scared that they hopped in the car and, like, came to my house, because this is what. I live, like, a mile from them. But I did call and I was like, I just saw this. This is what the car looks like. I don't think this girl's safe.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, I could see you doing that.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Because you're. You observe people.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Do you think that I have a friend who told me that when you're an actor, you get so accustomed to just surveying people, like, checking out all their mannerisms.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah, I mean, I definitely do, like, notice that. I was just thinking of this other one where this. I saw, like, this. This. Oh, this was it. I saw one time, I was driving my son to school, and I saw this. This girl, like, bullying this kid. Like, they were both young, and she pushed him on the ground and she, like, sat on him.

[Kate Casey]

What?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And it was like, in the morning, it was like, on Ventura Boulevard. And I'm like, oh, my God, Brandon, give me my phone. Like, you know, and of course, he's like, mom, stop.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, yeah. He's like, I gotta.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I'm like, wait a minute. Like. And I was like, no. This kid is like, something's going on with this, like, weird family. I don't know why this. I don't know if they're a family or if this girl is just bullying this kid. It's like. It's insane. Okay. So, you know, we got back to jump. We really got off things. But talking about the kids, the twins, I thought about those twins.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And I would hope that after a certain amount of time, you're just, like, in your community. And the community knows to not bring it up, to be respectful. Yeah. And if their kid is the friends with one of the twins, if they were to ever ask, they're just be like, please don't, you know, talk about it, whatever. Try to explain, like, to a child how that could be. But I don't think there's enough that. Where people talk about the siblings of tragic. You always think of the parents.

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

You know, and who did it, and the parents being accused or how the parents get. How they. Or that the parents have to live because there's another child. And that's you. That's the only reason they're living. It's because they have another kid to take care of. And you're like, how am I supposed to deal with that?

[Kate Casey]

Or I feel like this came up. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

We talked to the phone.

[Kate Casey]

No.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

But I don't know.

[Kate Casey]

Go back in time to Bethenny Frankel's show with Jason when they were getting married. Bethany getting married wasn't like his brother Casey had died. And I think.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yes.

[Kate Casey]

I think that's why she named Bryn. Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

It's a boy's name.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, I guess. Brian. He had a brother, Brian.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Okay.

[Kate Casey]

And so she's named after him. But was there some aspect about him saying that he felt that sort of pressure because he was the. The son that was still alive? Like, you have to be all things for a parent that lost their child.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And. Yeah, it's such a weird thing. Recently, Nick Viall and his wife Natalie Joy got a lot of criticism because they had Austin from Southern Charm on their show, and people were just really upset with how they handled the questioning. It almost seemed like maybe they weren't that familiar with his story or the show. And they kind of did the bare minimum and then thought, oh, wow, his sister died so tragically. She, you know, it was like on. They were on a hike. Right, right. And she fell off a cliff, which. That's what happened to Chelsea's brother. But. But he was, like, on a college. A post high school graduation trip with another family.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, no.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And they're on a hike. And that's what happened. And it was, you know, got the call, and it very much affected her life, obviously.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And like.

[Kate Casey]

But did you see this scene? The following or like a following. It was like, two weeks ago when Austin and his sister. Because they had another child after his sister Kyle passed away. And they're really close family. He's really close to his sister. And they got a tattoo, and it was the birth date of his sister, I think, in 1986. And then 1993, I believe, is his sister Katie, who was born after Kyle died. They got matching tattoos.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

But I guess that really speaks to the long tail of trauma and the kids that are impacted.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And so, I mean, you know, they supposedly, they have, like, privately apologized to Austin or something about how they, you know, regret how they handled that or whatever. And that's. And I'm not criticizing them. I mean, you know, that happens. And maybe they thought. Maybe she thought it was so long ago. Or maybe because it was brought up on the show, it was okay to ask. And then you see that the audience is like, oh, my God. Like, you know, because he's like, oh, we're going right there. And then she was like, really asking the details of how it could have happened, which then anyone of trauma is like, why are you bringing up. So now he visually is like, remembering it as a kid without some warning. Like, I assume in, you know, in shows that have been around Dateline 40 hour mysteries for, you know, 25 years, that when they get someone that's going to talk about their loved one that went through something, I think that they. That is really well thought out. I think they've talked to the person prior and been like, are you okay if we go there? We're going to start with asking you about her childhood. And then we're going to go to here, and then we're going to go there. And then in the podcasting world, I mean, I just think, you know, you just get comfortable and you do it so much and, and then you get yourself in a situation like that where, you know, they didn't mean to be hurtful or insensitive, but it really didn't come off well.

[Kate Casey]

I think the, the most amazing thing is the way that Austin shared that story. And I think you can see how much strangers were so connected to it. That they're so protective of him.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Because of it. And I think that speaks to just how incredible unscripted TV is that you could see a stranger's story.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

And feel so connected to them. And in some ways, maybe it mirrors your own life and helps you walk through grief.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Right. Yeah. I mean, and it's your life, so it's like you're going to be honest about it. Yeah. And I'm sure he's flooded with messages of people that have had something like, that's like, that's a one element of being like a really tragic thing, and then there's the other where it's like, you know, a death, obviously, but then like a mystery that is huge. Media, like international media. And we oftentimes think of like the, the child that was there to see it happening, but at 2, those twins were not. I think it's. I'm grateful that the two of them, Madeline's younger siblings, had each other.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And you know, that they could know that this was always this, like, shadowing thing and that. And then it's also like, well, how, you know, it's always just like, how, how long do you you know, like, even in today's world, like, of social media and whatnot, someone recently asked me, like, who they have. Someone who has passed in their life and they're a. A public figure. Do I do the post again this year, like, honoring them? You. Like, they're.

[Kate Casey]

They're like, they're asking you, is it in a. Is it a.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Do I keep doing it every year? Do I do it for just the death or the birthday?

[Kate Casey]

You do it for what.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

What you need. That's what I said. I said you do it for what you need.

[Kate Casey]

And if you.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

If you feel like honestly you don't want to do it again, or you don't want to post about it again, or you don't want to find a different photo or write something unique and it's becoming, like, a burden because you have to put it out there so that the. So that the fans realize that you're still mourning the spouse that you want that you had.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, that's awful.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I'm like. But I. You know, I mean, even for me, like, you know, my parents have gone 10 years, and I'm like, sometimes on their birthday or on an anniversary or.

[Kate Casey]

Something, it'll hit me. I like it when you do it.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

It'll hit me. And once in a while, I do. I will do it, But I don't do it every year.

[Kate Casey]

I do like it when you post those photos, though.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah. Or just a memory or whatever. But I'm saying, like, you know, I think that's become, like, a momson thing. You know, the same thing with, like, making a. I think it's really lovely when someone does a post for their friend or whatever, but those take a lot of time. Some people are really good at it, and some people are really organized. And, like, I believe, like, a Kris Jenner has someone that's. That's their entire job because she has to do those for each kid and each grandkid. And it has to be 12 photos and stuff. But for other people, it's like, can I just text you a happy birthday? Like, just, you know, like, I just literally don't have the time. And then other people where it is something sad, like a tribute. Yeah, maybe. Maybe on year four, I don't want to do it anymore. And why do I have to. Like, why do I have to answer to what you think?

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And I just think we're in this world where it's like, you know, there's such a. I was reading this thing that Nikki Sixx just posted for Motley Crue. And he was like, I've been in this business a really long time, and I've always, like, you know, loved the relationship with fans. And in the olden days, I'd get a bag of fan mail and I'd read them and I'd see them at the show. And then, oh, now you can share a little bit more of your life on Instagram and you can show your family and you can show. And then it's like, then he gets to a place where, like, well, now it's not enough. I need to know what you think about this, this, this, and this. And I need to see and why aren't you sharing this? And then. Or a stalker comes along, like, and he's just like, I don't know. I like this. But I also miss when it wasn't this.

[Kate Casey]

You know, that makes sense. The other thing about grief is that I think a lot of people don't know how to manage their grief. And they feel like if they talk about it, people will perceive it as, like. I think people are uncomfortable sometimes around someone who's lost someone. Like, I don't know if I should ask about the person that they lost. I read this great book by Elizabeth Edwards. Do you remember? She was married to John Edwards, the whole political scandal.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

She was, like, the best writer ever. She has this book that she put out called Amazing Graces because she lost her son in a car accident and.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Then she went through IVF to have another child or twin.

[Kate Casey]

She had two kids.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

But then also while her son. While her husband was running for president.

[Kate Casey]

He had an affair.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

He had an affair with the girl that was doing his, like, video. Yeah. And had a child with her.

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

That was the olden days of, like, tabloid, like, they literally busted photo. Him, like, long, like, long lens camera through a bush into, like, a hotel window where he's, like, holding the kid, holding the baby.

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And he was in the middle of running for president. Who was the hopeful?

[Kate Casey]

He was probably had a pretty darn good chance, but she was this incredibly bright, warm, unbelievable woman. And so they had a daughter, and then they lost their son in a car accident. His car flipped on the highway. And so in the book she wrote about her grief, it's the best book for anybody who's grieving, it's the best book. But I remember this one thing I always took with me was she said, when you lose someone, people often feel like it's going to be basically paining you to ask about the person you lost. So, for example, somebody lost a Child in, like, Camp mystic, for example, in Texas, that if you ask someone, like, tell me about your daughter, you know, like, tell me about her name, something like that, that you're reopening a wound. What? In fact, they want to talk about the person that they lost.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

So if someone is posting about the anniversary of someone's birthday or a moment, we should be celebrating that and letting people lean into that, because that's what they want.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

No, I think it's unfair to think.

[Kate Casey]

Like, they lose somebody and they never want to talk about it again.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

No, I think everybody is fine with you posting it. I'm saying as you as a person who's lost the person.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And you're a public figure, and you're just like, do I have to do this every. Every year for the next, you know, for the rest of my life? Like, it doesn't mean. And it's like, no, you don't. And you know what? People won't really remember and the judginess. But, you know, it's like we're in this weird world where everyone has an audience that can yell back at you, you know, and it's just like, yeah, but, you know, I have heard that, too. That, like, the thing to say when you're hit with that and you maybe didn't know, like, you're like, oh, and do you have kids? And then someone's like, well, you know, and then they said, oh, of course. Your first thought is to say, I'm sorry. Which you should. But if you personally feel comfortable enough, what they said you should say is, oh, tell me your favorite thing about her.

[Kate Casey]

Right. Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I mean, it's a good thing to try. And, you know, and if they're like, well, I really don't want to talk about that. Then you're like, okay, Heather, why did you mention that on JC Skew? That really fucking was horrible at the Bunko party. Like, I hate you.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Okay. Ending on JonBenet.

[Kate Casey]

This is another case where I said, like, something happens and it shifts the way we see things. This case made me never understand why anybody moving forward wouldn't put their children in pageants 100%. It just totally shifted the way it was after this.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Toddlers and Tiaras. And by the way, Honey Boo Boo I just saw became a nurse.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, good for her.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Isn't that great? Yeah, that's great and all of that. But it was the fat. This sparked the initial fascination that then got people. I remember when Bravo first started, there was a show, Showbiz Moms and Dads. And they followed, like, five different showbiz moms and dads, and one was a pageant person. And I think that was after Jon Monet. And I think that also post, like, perked the interest of. Oh, my God. There's a whole reality show of these kind of moms that, you know, get involved with or the coaches. Sure, yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah. And because even, like, our culture, like, if a child had a lot of makeup on or dressed up, there would be, you know, a description like, oh, it felt very JonBenet. Right. It totally shifted the way we looked at children in entertainment.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

My niece and nephew were in this before. We're doing a little bit of pageant stuff.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, really?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yes. And it really. It was like, a random, funny day that, like, there was a contest at the mall, and I was like, oh, my God, let's put, you know, my nephew in it like this. So funny. Whatever. Well, then he really started to win a lot because there were, like, no boys.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, okay.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And then all the mom of the girls kind of liked my sister because there was no competition. But it's what you thought. It was expensive. Not as expensive for a boy because he just had to wear tux and he didn't need multiple tuxes, you know, and then. But it was like, you know, who's the most? I mean, the baby. You're not singing and dancing as a baby.

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

So it was like, you know, two, three years old, whatever. And then after that, they got legit, like, acting, modeling, whatever. But I remember she would, you know, I remember there were kids that would have the flipper. So they'd lose their. Their baby tooth.

[Kate Casey]

Oh, yeah.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And then they'd put, like, the flipper in, but use that for acting tooth so that you'd have all matching, like, baby teeth. But then some of them would really get, like, the, you know, New Jersey house husbands, you know, big chompers. And with this case, you know, she was in these pageants, and we look now and just how anybody could walk into a. To. Into like, a Hilton.

[Kate Casey]

Right.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And watch these. And when you'd see the toddlers in tears or whatever, there would be nobody in the audience but the parents and maybe some creeps. But it's not like people went like, you would go to, like, Miss America and buy a ticket. I mean, this is just a local thing. And the cost and the outfits and, I mean, I've seen a lot of TV shows and documentaries on it of how much it costs and how the kid would just be like, I just want to swim in the Pool, you know, like, I just want to swim in the hotel pool. Like, no, like, you need to practice your song and slick back the hair and the eyelashes and the makeup and the coaches and the. And then, you know, some mother is obsessed, and, you know, the husband's just like, well, you know, happy wife, happy life. I don't know.

[Kate Casey]

So this idea of, like, why do we want to make our children look older than they are? Why can't they enjoy being little?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Right?

[Kate Casey]

Like, why are we in this rush to have them all dressed up? Hey, do you remember Star Search where when they would have, you know, the different competitions, Right. There was this boy that would always. Or that. I remember he would always come in a full, like, suit or tux every time he performed. And he made it pretty far. He was a redhead. Are you saying short? Yes. Do you remember this? No. But I dropped my kids. One of my kids off at school. He's the dad in the class, like, another kid. And I. And I was, like, stuck in this, like, zone where I was. You want to look around and go, holy shit, it's the guy from Star Search.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

So what did you do?

[Kate Casey]

But no one knew what the hell I was talking about.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Did you talk to him?

[Kate Casey]

I talked to him, but I didn't bring that up for, like, at least three or four times.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And then when you brought it up, what did you say?

[Kate Casey]

All right, am I insane? But were you not, like, the biggest star from Star Search because you want to, like, blow them up, make them feel good, like they didn't make a life mistake? And he's like, yeah, but he was excited about it. He was like, yeah, I actually was on it. I'm like, oh, my God, what does he do now? Oh, he's like. Doesn't even sing or anything. He was like a frazzled dad, like, trying to run after his son. And then they left the school. Hopefully I didn't have anything to do with that. I don't know.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Well, this one, you know, will always come back around. There'll always be documentaries on JonBenet and covers of Star magazine because we still don't know what happened to her.

[Kate Casey]

I feel like it's like our jfk. Yeah. Like, we're never gonna get an answer. We're never gonna get. We're just never going to.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

People at first, you know, pointed the finger at the parents. The mother did pass of cancer, and I mean, the documentaries that have done been done on this, they're the latest one made you really feel sorry for the parents.

[Kate Casey]

Yeah, that was The Netflix one. I interviewed the director of that one.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

And what was his thought? Who does he think did it?

[Kate Casey]

It was actually the executive producer. I'm sorry, he didn't really have an answer, but he was just challenging the media to look at other suspects outside of the family.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I mean, I really think what it is in these situations is everything's a business. And whether you're doing a podcast or you have a blog or you are ABC News, they know what keeps people's interest. They know what sells a magazine. And so very sadly, if this is your tragedy, it's like, well, we still want to find your child's killer, but we're going to bring it up again and we're going to do a salacious headline because that way we get the clicks or we sell the magazines or whatever, and we'll do whatever it is. And, you know, and it was, again, such a bizarre kidnapping story. Now, at this time of recording, we still don't know where Nancy Guthrie is, but I feel it's this level of weirdness, but with an older person.

[Kate Casey]

We also live in a time where we have all watched so many documentaries that I think we're all just looking for the puzzle piece that no one has picked up on.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Right.

[Kate Casey]

And it's a conversation start. Also, in a world that, let's be honest, is incredibly chaotic, the news is incredibly disturbing. You feel like you have no power or little power in the world. It's this collective feeling of we're going to get justice for somebody who is 84 years old and the family behind it. It's like the one thing that we feel like we have, like, some semblance of community on in a very chaotic world.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

I really hope that we have an answer soon. At time of recording, we're on, like, day nine or ten that she's been missing. But sadly, in covering some of these, I'm like, we just may never. It might be one of those things that we just never know. I hope not. But, like. And this, you know, and it consumed the news for three weeks during the time that the Epstein files dropped, you.

[Kate Casey]

Know, and every time we talk about the Winter Olympics in this period of time, it's always going to be overshadowed by Epstein files. What's going on with the government? What's going on with the Guthrie case?

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yes.

[Kate Casey]

And some of those athletes who have.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Worked their whole lives, their whole lives.

[Kate Casey]

And their moment that they had anticipated, like they had envisioned, they had manifested is forgotten about.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah. I worked on this TV show called Hollywood Today Live with Ross Matthews and during the two weeks, I did like a five week stint. During those two weeks, I want to say it was, I can't remember. It was the Olympics and we covered it every day. And I mean, maybe they're doing that on Today show too, when they're not covering about Savannah Guestries or Good Morning America, whatever. But I feel like, and I remember even I was like, all right, like I'm kind of over this, you know, like, whatever. Is there anything else? But there wasn't because it was such, like, it's such a big story. And I mean, with Jon Monet, of course, since we're talking about Epstein, you know, people are trying to put together. Was Ghislaine in Denver at the kids pageant? Why is her face in this photo? And of course these things were like, I don't know. You don't know what's real or not, if it's AI, if it's, you know, so many things are being photoshopped and whatnot. And you know, she.

[Kate Casey]

Did she disappear in 1996, something like that.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

It was definitely before 2000. And I'm going to say what I have always thought, my theory.

[Kate Casey]

Oh.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Of what I always thought. But my thoughts have changed over the years. But this is what I truly think. I think that it was some creepy guy that, you know, is watching them. Maybe at one time worked on the house. Like the smart just knew who they were, knew who she was, probably was obsessed with the pageant, a pedophile, whatever, and was so knew enough that he had that bonus check. Somehow this guy knew they did the bonus check. I don't always believe in like hand handwriting, analyzation, whatever. So yes, the person, it was very weird that the person wrote the ransom note on a scratch pad in the house. You'd think that you'd have that note written some time before you're. You're kind of. You think that time is of essence, right? Like, how much time do you have? I mean, there were so many weird things like that that the mom never changed her clothes. Was she kind of drunk from Christmas Eve and just rolled and slept in her clothes? Maybe she's one of those people that doesn't always wash her face or crawled into bed and meant to get up and wash her face and didn't, you know, the wetting the bed, the brother, the pineapple in her stomach. Was the brother mad that she ate the pineapple and all of that. But if I had to like really guess, I think it was a stranger. But that knew enough about their family and went to take or wanted to kidnap her because he wrote the note, but somehow, like couldn't resist his urges to sa her and in doing that accidentally or purposely ended her life and then panicked and left her there when the note was already and didn't take back the note. And I just don't know that we'll ever know who it is. I mean, there's been people that are like, I did it. And like I said, someone who's bored in prison, I'm here for life, might as well say I did it. So someone comes to visit me and ask me a question. I don't know. What is your theory?

[Kate Casey]

I don't know. I often think it's interesting a lot of these cases and I cover so many where we revisit cases and the lens changes decade to decade and with technology, I'm hopeful that we will actually eventually have some sort of answer.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

I also always think about how Patsy Ramsey died of cancer and what stress does to your body and the aftermath of this tragedy, if that had a part in her illness.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah.

[Kate Casey]

Just awful.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Yeah. Well, I appreciate you coming.

[Kate Casey]

Thank you.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Because you, I don't even know you sleep what, an hour and a half a night? You do so much your show, you offer so much content on your for your podcast and cover so many things from reality TV and funny stuff as well as like what to watch and everything. So tell everybody where they can find all your stuff stuff.

[Kate Casey]

So reality Life with Kate Casey. Everywhere you find. Podcasts, Facebook group, Reality Life with Kate Casey. I've got a weekly list of what to watch. I spell out for people. These are the docs, the reality shows to watch. You have to go to katecasey.substack.com just put in your email. It comes to your email every Monday and bonus episodes and on Instagram, akca, TikTok, it's KateKasey, Twitter threads, bluesky, aitKasey.

[Juicy Crimes Host]

Thank you everybody.