Dance Moms' Abby Lee Miller Tells All

Summary

Podcast Summary: Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald – Episode: Dance Moms' Abby Lee Miller Tells All

Release Date: November 12, 2024

In this compelling episode of Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald, host Heather McDonald sits down with Abby Lee Miller, the formidable dance instructor and star of the reality TV show Dance Moms. The interview delves deep into Abby's tumultuous journey in the dance industry, her experiences with reality television, personal struggles, and the lessons she's learned along the way.

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Early Beginnings and Dance Career

Abby Lee Miller traces her passion for dance back to her childhood, heavily influenced by her mother's involvement in the dance industry.

• Formation of Her Dance Studio:
  Abby Lee Miller [04:10]: "I didn't venture out on my own. I took over my mom's studio, borrowing $585,000 at 9 1/4% interest with my parents' life savings to build it."

• Development of Her Teaching Philosophy:
  Abby emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and the evolving nature of dance, which shaped her approach to training young dancers.

Creation and Rise of Dance Moms

The conversation shifts to the inception of Dance Moms, highlighting Abby's pivotal role in creating the show.

• Origin Story:
  Heather McDonald [10:24]: "How did they discover you? Tell me."
  Abby Lee Miller [10:19]: "I created the show, but I don't get a creative credit. We had a cast of 30 families, mostly from my studio, bringing their unique dynamics to the screen."

• Challenges with Production:
  Abby recounts the difficulties in managing her studio while the show began production, including financial strains and creative differences with producers.

Impact of Reality Television on Her Business

Abby's reflections on how the reality show affected her dance studio reveal both positive and disastrous consequences.

• Financial Struggles:
  Abby Lee Miller [09:42]: "The recession hit hard in 2008, and by 2010, I owed $37,000 in property taxes I couldn't pay. Declaring bankruptcy was humiliating and ultimately led to the downfall of my business."

• Reputation and Relationships:
  Abby discusses the strain the show placed on her relationships with students and their families, leading to conflicts and loss of clientele.

Legal Battles and Incarceration

A significant portion of the interview covers Abby's legal troubles and subsequent time in prison.

• Bankruptcy and Tax Issues:
  Abby Lee Miller [14:39]: "Declaring bankruptcy destroyed my business. I couldn't maintain my studio, and the ensuing legal battles were overwhelming."

• Time in Prison:
  Abby Lee Miller [60:15]: "Prison was like a harsh camp. I made friends, but it was tough adjusting. I even organized dance performances for fellow inmates to maintain a semblance of normalcy."

• Reflections on the Legal System:
  Abby Lee Miller [57:36]: "I was in a witch hunt because of how the show portrayed me. It was 21 indictments, 20 wrong, and one stuck. It sickens me to have been convicted for something that wasn't entirely my fault."

Personal Struggles and Health Issues

Abby opens up about her personal battles, including health challenges exacerbated by her legal troubles.

• Health Decline:
  Abby Lee Miller [64:38]: "My incarceration led me to be off my medications abruptly, which resulted in severe health issues. It's a cycle of neglect and punishment that affected my well-being deeply."

Lessons Learned and Advice for Others

Despite the adversities, Abby shares invaluable lessons and advice for individuals considering reality television or facing similar challenges.

• Importance of Legal Representation:
  Abby Lee Miller [67:01]: "Get a really good attorney, an even better accountant, and question every single thing that they do. Read the fine print."

• Protecting One’s Business and Reputation:
  Abby emphasizes the necessity of safeguarding one's business interests and maintaining professionalism, especially when under public scrutiny.

Rebuilding and Moving Forward

In the latter part of the interview, Abby discusses her efforts to rebuild her life and business post-incarceration.

• New Projects and Positive Outlook:
  Abby Lee Miller [66:13]: "God let me live, so I need to live. I'm thrilled to be here on Juicy Scoop, sharing my story and moving forward with new projects."

• Maintaining Relationships with Supportive Individuals:
  Abby highlights the importance of staying connected with friends who stood by her during her darkest times, providing essential support and encouragement.

Conclusion

Abby Lee Miller's narrative is one of resilience and transformation. From taking over her mother's dance studio to navigating the treacherous waters of reality television, financial ruin, and imprisonment, Abby's story serves as a cautionary tale about the complexities of fame and the importance of personal integrity. Her advice underscores the necessity of preparedness and vigilance in business dealings, especially when they intersect with the unpredictable nature of reality TV.

Notable Quotes:

• Abby Lee Miller [09:42]: "I didn't have the luxury to walk away. I had to stick by my principles, even when it cost me everything."
• Abby Lee Miller [67:09]: "Question every single thing they do. Read the fine print."
• Abby Lee Miller [66:13]: "God let me live, so I need to live."

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This episode offers a raw and unfiltered look into Abby Lee Miller's life, providing listeners with a deeper understanding of the person behind the on-screen persona. It's a testament to her strength and determination to rise above the challenges she's faced.

Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

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[Abby Lee Miller]

When you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr. Statement, serial data and Serial Sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up had a McDonald.

[Heather McDonald]

Juicy scoop hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I am really excited for you guys to hear this interview. This is one you have been asking for begging for. I sat down with Abby Lee Miller of Dance Moms. Now I really have not watched that much of Dance Moms. I've seen the clips. I I seen what was perceived about her. I followed her case when she went to prison. We met and made this time for her to come on Juicy Scoop. And it is such an interesting life story. So many things I didn't know. She's funny, she's juicy, and she's inspirational and very real. And I think you'll really love this interview. So sit back and relax for Abby Lee Miller. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I'm very excited because I have a great guest. Abby Lee Miller.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Woo hoo.

[Heather McDonald]

The star of Dance Moms Famous on so many levels. Welcome to your first time at Juicy Scoop.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Thank you. I love being here.

[Heather McDonald]

We met at the US Weekly party.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

And I was so impressed that you knew who I was.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Well, I've been a fan for years.

[Heather McDonald]

So I was like, oh my God, definitely. Come on. My niece, who's 17, is a new fan of the show.

[Abby Lee Miller]

New.

[Heather McDonald]

And yes. I guess a lot of these shows with our younger generation that can watch shows, whether it's Friends or Dance Bombs or whatever, discovered it and was so excited that you were coming. So she was.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I'll get a T shirt for her. Yeah, yeah, we'll send it over to you. I cannot believe you put me in the same sentence with Friends. That's great.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes. Oh, my God. I just. I can retire right now.

[Heather McDonald]

So I want to get a little bit of a background for the people that aren't that familiar with you or the show for. This is a show that. It was on tlc, right?

[Abby Lee Miller]

No.

[Heather McDonald]

What was it on Lifetime?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, sorry. It was on lifetime for seven or eight seasons.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Eight.

[Heather McDonald]

Eight seasons.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Double seasons.

[Heather McDonald]

And so two seasons a year.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So we shot 13 episodes, three specials, like a clip show I did. And then a reunion and then a kids reunion, and then another 13 episodes and another three specials. And then I would leave Pittsburgh and go fly to LA and do another show, a spin off Abby's Ultimate Dance competition or Abby's Studio rescue for another 13 episodes. So I was on television 45 weeks out of 52 weeks a year for years.

[Heather McDonald]

Seven or eight years.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Six. Yeah. Because the first season was supposed to be a six week docu series that wasn't supposed to destroy my business or me. And yeah, it turned into eight long.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I mean, I think that's. I want to get into all of that and let's. So let's go back. And so your mom was a dancer and had a dance studio and so that's really where your dancing career began?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes, my mom had seven studios in Miami, Florida before she left to marry my dad and moved to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

[Heather McDonald]

When did you realize that you wanted to follow in your mom's Footsteps and teach girls.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So I started to go travel with my mother to the conventions in the summer. There weren't competitions, but there were, you know, a lot of continuing education. And my mother was very big on that. It's, you know, dance is a constantly evolving art form. You have to stay on top of your craft, something new all the time for the kids. So I went with her and I studied with some of the most influential teachers of our time. Jazz teachers, Frank Hatchett and Luigi and Gus Giordano and these people. And then when I was 13, we got a flyer in the mail and it was said, dance competition. That's the first time you saw those two words together. And I said, mom, mom, I want to do this. I want to do this. And she said, she looked at it and she said, wait, we're going to pay people money to watch you dance and then they're gonna judge you? That's absurd. You should get paid to dance.

[Heather McDonald]

Uh huh.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But she's in Pittsburgh now. Different than Miami, different culture. And she said, okay, you want to do a solo in this? I said, oh no, I want to teach my friends a dance, choreograph it and put them in it. And I did, I got the costumes, I did the rhinestones. I cut the music when it was reel to reel tape. You had to slice it with a razor blade and put it back together. It's how you edited music. Now kids can do it on their phone, right? Bizarre. So I did it and I put them in three girlfriends, they were my age and they took dance from my mother, of course, and they were my friends and they won. I had that little 12 inch plastic trophy in my hands and I knew what I was put on this earth to do.

[Heather McDonald]

Amazing.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

So then you, so then. Okay, so then let's cut to. So you start.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I'm 14. That, that I'm. My birthday's in September. I turned 14 and I tell my mother, I want to have a competition team at your studio. And she said, okay, everybody that tries out makes it. I'm not going to lose customers over this. And you're going to teach them for free. Because you're 14, you have no credentials, you're not a member of any organizations or anything. Dance teacher organizations. So it's free. And you do it on Saturdays or Sundays after they're, you know, not during class time. And I did. And that's how it started. And I had 15 kids, one boy, 14 girls. And one of those girls ended up being a mom on the show.

[Heather McDonald]

Really? Yes. And did you get along with her?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Nope. She's the one that physically assaulted me.

[Heather McDonald]

Who was that?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Her name is Kelly Hyland.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And when you.

[Abby Lee Miller]

She was my student since she was three at my mom's studio and she was on the competition team at the Abbey Lee Dance Company.

[Heather McDonald]

Did you get along back then?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I did, yes. I loved her. She was gorgeous. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but she was a beautiful child. Beautiful and nice legs, flexibility. She was more of an acrobat. And then her mother, who was divorced. Her mom and dad were divorced. Lovely people. Her mom had an affair with somebody else's dad in the dance studio, and that child was also on the competition team. So when that all broke out, we would go to the conventions at hotels and they were getting a room upstairs. And when that.

[Heather McDonald]

And did you know as a kid, as a teenager.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Oh, well, I did. When it all blew up and both kids quit, they were so embarrassed and so mortified. They were like 14.

[Heather McDonald]

And Kelly was one of those.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But then her dad, who was divorced, her dad always had a young, gorgeous girlfriend and they always had kids, and he brought them back to the dance studio every couple years. He'd bring.

[Heather McDonald]

So he was good for your business?

[Abby Lee Miller]

He was great, yes. He paid tuition longer than anybody else in my studio.

[Heather McDonald]

So then when do you decide to venture on your own and have your own studio?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I didn't. I took over my mom's studio. Oh, okay. And I borrowed $585,000 when I was 22 years old at 9 1/4% interest. And my mom and dad gave me their life savings, which was, I think 180,000, to build my building. And I did.

[Heather McDonald]

And is that the same place that then the years later that the TV cameras came to?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. Now, what was your relationship with reality TV before they came a knock in. Were you a fan of it? Did you watch? You didn't watch it?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I watched like Real World, maybe so.

[Heather McDonald]

A little bit, yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But I was a very avid TV watcher. Scripted television. I was an only child. Television was my best friend.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. So you're doing this thing. How old were you when they first said, hey, we're. And how did they discover you? Tell me. The whole thing of how it came about.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I was not discovered. I created the show, but I don't get a creative credit. Let's just throw that out there.

[Heather McDonald]

All right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

All right. So my 15 kids grows to 148 on my team, 400 in the studio. It's. I'm married to the studio. I'm there night and day.

[Heather McDonald]

Because you never have been married, right?

[Abby Lee Miller]

No. I did 77 solos myself. Choreographed. No guest choreographers, no guest. I had a great staff of people that I worked with, mainly ballet teachers that were at the ballet companies in town. I had a tap teacher that came from West Virginia, but they were mostly people that my mother had trained. Right.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Okay. So we're there, we're doing our thing, and we start to win. That was my goal. I wanna win. I wanna win. I want a Miss Dance of Pennsylvania. That was a big deal, and I got one. And okay, now the next goal. I want a professional working dancer. I'm going to train a kid that's going to get out of this town and they're going to go and they're going to be successful. And I did my first professional dancer. Lisa Schanz was one of those very first kids when I was 14 in my team.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, wow.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Part of my team. And she got Tokyo Disney. And she left her crazy family, which she had a crazy dance mom, too. Left her, moved to Japan. I flew to Japan to see her. Like, I did it. I invested my life in these kids. They were my life. I love them dearly. Like they were my own kids, you know, either younger sisters.

[Heather McDonald]

Because you have never had your own children.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Correct, Right, right. Okay. But I've been in the wings of the stage.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And put my hands like this and had a kid throw up in my hands.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes, you've done it all.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I've raised these kids.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Okay. All right. So. And then it went on and on and on. And then a junior misdance, and then a teen misdance, and then a misdance of America, of the nation. And these aren't little rinky dink competitions. This is big time, not for profit, huge events. And now what's the goal? I want a kid on Broadway. And I started driving those kids back and forth to New York City. Me, I paid for the gas, the parking tickets, the speeding tickets, the McDonald's. Right. I did it. And I got a student in Footloose. That same young man is now an associate choreographer, a director a this, a that. He's involved in the new show, Death Becomes her, that's opening in November. Right now. I currently have four kids on Broadway now till this day. It's insane. And I did that. And to see your name in that playbill is meant. It was all worth it, all the sacrifices that I made. Right, Right. Okay. So I'm doing that right now. Things take a Turn. My father passes away. He runs the books, he runs the money. Then my business. 2008 happened and the recession. Kids couldn't go to dancing school. The really advanced kids were still there because they were going to get a life out of this. A college, scholarship, their livelihood. They were still there. They didn't all pay, but they were still there. And then I still had babies coming because we have a great, great preschool program till this day, my mother's curriculum, but they could afford it. It was, I don't know, 30 bucks a month, something cheap. It was those middle of the road kids that came two days, maybe three a week, that it was kind of pricey, but they weren't going to make a living at it, so they cut it out. And then it just. Bills caught up, caught up, caught up. I refinanced my building from that 9 and 3/4% interest. Refinanced the building. And they never put the taxes in escrow on the building. And I didn't know that. I never went to a tax office. I never paid a tax bill. It's just in the monthly mortgage, right. So three years later in 2010, they come to me and say, you owe $37,000 on property tax on the building.

[Heather McDonald]

And you don't have it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I don't have it. I don't have anything. I'm driving a brand new Escalade every two years like I was. I lived a nice life, you know.

[Heather McDonald]

So then what did you do?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I still did everything.

[Heather McDonald]

So then what did you do?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I was so mortified and so embarrassed that I declare bankruptcy. That was on December 10th of 2010. The show started four months later. Four months later.

[Heather McDonald]

So you're saying a TV show started, so you should have never declared bankruptcy?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Never declared bankruptcy. Strung them out for four months, went to the tax office, tried to get.

[Heather McDonald]

An attorney to a payment plan or something.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And then. Well, I did try to do that first before I declared bankruptcy. I did. But then the show would have rolled in and I would have said, listen, we're going to lose this building. If you want to shoot here, you better figure this out. Right, right. Okay. Right.

[Heather McDonald]

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[Abby Lee Miller]

So a hot guy. Most of my stories start with a hot guy. So a young man named John Carella was a professional dancer from Phoenix, Arizona. I used to see him at competitions. So he would win Teen Mr. Dance of America the next year. He was giving up the title and my student was winning it. So I knew his family, I knew his dance teacher, you know, blah, yada yada. So now I'm at a convention in Vegas and I'm walking into the ballroom area and this hot guy's walking out and I'm like, check him out, you know, who's that? He's hot. And he looks at me and like checks me out. Like, here's this old fat lady looking at me. And I'm like, John Carolla. And he's like, I really Miller. And we hug, we stay up all night talking. And I've known him since he was a kid, right? And he's done, you know, world tours, Janet Jackson, Celine Dion, Paula Abdul. He's done every Oscars, Emmy, Grammy show. In the opening number, he's a Latin, muscular, masculine dancer. My mother used to say he looked like Valentino on stage. So we start talking. What are you doing here? Oh, I'm coaching these three kids. How do you put up with these mothers? I can't take it. Yada, yada yada. I said, three kids? Try hundreds, you know. And so the next day, I'm leaving the hotel, he's coming in and he said, where are you going? And I said, well, I have to go down the street to see my kids compete. He's like, what are you talking about? Your kids are here. They're winning everything. They're amazing, Abby. I said, no, my other kids are down the street at a Dolly Dinkle, Rinky Dink event at a really Trashy hotel. So we get in the car, we go down to the dinky hotel, and we walk in and there's a little girl named Maddie doing her solo. Cute. Next kid does her solo. You don't know her name? The next kid does it. You might know her name. I look over at him and he's like this. I said, what's wrong with you? He said, oh, my God, Abby, these kids are ad adorable. They have to be on tv. These kids should be on television. Well, that's not my world. Broadway is my world.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So I said, let me introduce you to their mothers.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So I take them outside the ballroom.

[Heather McDonald]

And you're thinking, that's going to turn him off.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Oh, yes, that's going to. He's going to realize that they're not the la. They're not going to be able to take their kids on a plane to Los Angeles and stay outside while they work in a movie or a film.

[Heather McDonald]

Or whatever, because why? Because these dance moms that you encountered are just a type unlike any other one.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Well, these little ones, moms with the solos that they were doing, their kids were like, on the verge of being good, Right?

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah. So they think they know everything. Your kid wins one thing, and suddenly you're an expert. But I take them outside and they're drunk.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, the mom's.

[Abby Lee Miller]

It's the morning.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah, they're drunk already. They're broke, and they're bitching about everything. You know, the competition, it starts too early, it ends too late. The food, the hotel, the ballroom, the bedbugs, everything, Everything. I said, let's go. We're out of here. Come on. And we jump in the car and he looks at me and says, abby, I have an idea and it's going to be really good. And he started working on it. I went back to Pittsburgh.

[Heather McDonald]

So he started working on the pitch.

[Abby Lee Miller]

He went back to la, he starts working on a pitch. His best friend is a casting director for a little show you may have heard of. The Bachelor, the Bachelorette. And he takes it to her, and she said, john, I think you have a good idea here, but I hate kids. This is not for me. I'm going to introduce you to a guy that I know that does these famous birthday parties and stuff.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay?

[Abby Lee Miller]

And so John meets Bryan Stinson and they both get credit for creating the show. Yeah. I will refer to him as Satan for the rest of this talk. Okay. The second guy.

[Heather McDonald]

Now, why. Okay, so then they bring it to you and.

[Abby Lee Miller]

No, they don't bring it to me, they start calling me.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And they need pictures of kids. They need 8 by tens. So I email the 8 by 10s. Yeah, we need footage. Do you have recital footage of dances, like, groups and stuff? Yes, John, I have that now.

[Heather McDonald]

Are you getting excited? Are you imagining what it would be like to have a TV show like that?

[Abby Lee Miller]

No. They're a pain in the ass.

[Heather McDonald]

You're not excited. This is just annoying.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So I'm in bankruptcy. It's like going to college. You have to fill out a form every month. It's literally like enrolling in school. If anybody's thinking about doing it. It's enrolling in college when you have bankruptcy. Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And all the. Through it all.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Abby Lee Miller]

It's a very stressful process. Okay. Yes. Okay. So we have that. I'm running my studio, trying to run it, maybe running it into the ground.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I have two retail stores, one at my studio, one where, like, Carnegie Mellon University, like in the city where they are. Okay. So I have all that. Right. My mother is older. She's 82, 83 at the time. My dog is 16 years old. Okay. I'm in Pittsburgh. I'm trying. And the goal was at 45, I was going to go to Florida and live three weeks, come home, do two weeks at home and go back. And my mother would stay in Florida. We're done with the snow and the shoveling and all that, and try to start to sell my business to one of my former students. Okay, so that's the game plan. Next thing I know, we need your program books. I used to do these big, thick, like, yearbook, almost beautiful of pictures. Cause I can make any kid look amazing in a picture. And this is before Photoshop.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

This is years before, you know, like, pose them and, like, jump out of the frame and get back in the handstand. In the chin stand the handstand. Right. Okay, so then. So then we're doing our thing. We're competing still. We're doing it. We're trying to do less because people just don't have the money for all these fees. Okay? So I get the call. We're going to find a cast. So they take it. They start knocking on doors to production companies, and they keep getting the door slammed in their face. Then they go to a place called Collins Avenue Entertainment. Jeff Collins gives them $3,000 to shoot a sizzle.

[Heather McDonald]

Got it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Now I have to provide all the stuff for the sizzle.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I'm the one that has the competition stuff. And they want the crowns and the Banners and all that, right? Okay, so I don't even have money. They want 12 program books overnighted to Hollywood. They're this thick. I don't even have the money to ship these. Like 180 bucks to ship these to them. I'm like, you gotta send me like a sticker or something to put on this so I can send them. All right, so 11 networks were interested.

[Heather McDonald]

11 after the real.

[Abby Lee Miller]

That's unheard of.

[Heather McDonald]

Sizzle reel.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah. They had mothers, mothers fighting and kids dancing, mothers drinking.

[Heather McDonald]

When you said, okay, hey, how did you explain it to the kids and the moms that these cameras are coming in just for a little sizzle reel? Did they get excited?

[Abby Lee Miller]

No, the sizzle was all made up of footage that I had.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So, okay, so moms know nothing about this.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so then the offer comes in and you decide, I'm gonna.

[Abby Lee Miller]

There's no offer. We're coming to Pittsburgh to shoot. So the networks go down and down and down and down and down, right? And it's a bidding war, right? And it gets comes down to Lifetime and Bravo. Oh, and Lifetime buys the show. I could be what's his name?

[Heather McDonald]

Andy Cohen.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah, I should be Andy Cohen. I should be his cohort.

[Heather McDonald]

I'm bummed that Bravo didn't get it either. Because the thing that made me obsessed with Bravo from the very start were. What was it called? Showbiz Moms and Dads.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Oh, I don't know that show.

[Heather McDonald]

Huh. Let me tell you people, I get chills thinking how good it was.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Was it after Dance Moms or before?

[Heather McDonald]

It was before. It was like, when only Bravo had, like two things on. No, it was such a small, like, cable network. They had that show and they had Inside the Actors Studio. That was literally all they had.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But that was a legit, serious show.

[Heather McDonald]

I grew up here in la, right? And I had a child's agent, this big woman called Iris Burton. And my two sisters and I, we all, we had the headshots. We went. And my one sister, she made a lot of money in commercials. She's blonde, blue eyed. That's what they wanted. They didn't want the brown haired, brown eyes back then. So anyway, and then my one sister's. Her kids started doing it. So we discover this show and it is all about Showbiz Moms and dads. They'd feature one person who had a pageant kid. And then. But the one I was most interested in was everyone would come here. They'd stay at the Oakwood Apartments in Burbank for pilot Season. And we were, like, obsessed with these kids that were trying to get the pilots and trying to get the acting. And, you know, some were. Some were good, and some were like, I can't believe this person thinks her kid is going to make it. There was a lot. The cluelessness and the way it was shot was just brilliant. So brilliant. Like, where the people think they're all that. And your people at home are like, you're a loser. So anyway, I'm bummed they didn't get it. Okay, so Lifetime gets it. Jump into Lifetime.

[Abby Lee Miller]

They didn't get it, and Lifetime got it.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And it immediately changes the entire concept of the show because Lifetime wants a Housewives show.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So Dancing with the Stars, their numbers are going up and up every week. So you think you can dance was good at that time, Right? So now they want a Housewives show that centers around a dance studio because they're so freaking cheap.

[Heather McDonald]

They want the moms fighting and the moms having friendships and all that. Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes. It's a Housewife show. The dancing is 10%. The kids are 10%. And I'm not on it. I have nothing to do with it. They're using my studio.

[Heather McDonald]

And are they paying for free?

[Abby Lee Miller]

No, not a dime.

[Heather McDonald]

Why didn't you say no?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I thought that'd be good advertising. Now I have kids in 20 Broadway shows at the time or 15 Broadway shows at that time. What's my next goal?

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Maybe this is it. Maybe kids are gonna come flocking to my studio because we have a TV show.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Okay. Got it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I'm down and out. I gotta do something.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Now they're gonna find a cast. So it's posted on my website. My website. Auditioning TV show. No, not auditioning. Interviewing. That's the key word, Heather. You have to realize.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So the kids sat in a chair next to their mothers like this. Nobody danced. No one.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Keep that in mind. So 30 families interviewed. 27 were my students from my families. Right. From my studio. Two were friends of mine that had little boys that I thought were hilarious that would make great tv. And the mothers were hilarious. I mean, they were from a hick town called Union Town, and they just. Hey, Abby. Hey, Abby. How you doing? Like, they were crazy, right? They were fun. And the 30th one was Kathy, who ends up being my arch nemesis rival later on in the show.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

She was the first one. So she calls me, says, are you really doing a TV show at your studio? I said, kathy, I don't know. They're Gonna use my studio. Well, they like the upstairs, you know, thing. We'll see. Well, I'm coming down. And I said, oh, well, who are you bringing? Thinking it's a student of hers and their mother, Right?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

What do you mean, who am I bringing? Vivianne. I'm bringing Vivianne. Her daughter can't even walk with the same, like, opposite arm and opposite foot. Like, she's. And I was like, what? I'm like, well, this is not the show. I'm thinking it is that.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So 30 families now. If you talk to any other mothers, they're gonna make you believe. Thousands of people interviewed for this show. Okay, all right. I call. No. No. Because no one knew about it. It was only on my website. And she knew. Cause she stalks my website.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay? That's it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Right? And a couple other local studios were probably upset and stalking my. Like, oh, my God, she's gonna have a TV show now. She wins everything, right? So I'm already kind of hated in Pittsburgh because we win everything now.

[Heather McDonald]

All right?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Everything. Okay? So if you're serious, you come to my studio. If you want Dolly Dinkle, you go somewhere else.

[Heather McDonald]

All right?

[Abby Lee Miller]

So. And also in my studio at this time, not. There's one kid who's actually on Broadway in Hamilton right now, John Michael. I'll give you a shout out. He is from the zip code that my studio is in, okay? Nobody else is. Everyone is driving in 45 minutes an hour to train with me, okay? So they come in, they interview these kids, and they have a cast, okay? Now I'm choreographing for free. So now I'm choreographing reworking numbers that the kids already know. But there's one kid that's older, the older sister, and there's one little sister that they don't know these numbers, but all the other kids know the numbers. So they picked four kids out of a class. 18 kids in the class, right? Four get on a TV show, and 14 quit. So I don't lose the tuition just for the next year. I lose the tuition for the next 10 years, eight years. All the costumes, fees, the shoes, the tights, they're buying from me.

[Heather McDonald]

So, okay, so then the show. We're gonna have to skip along. So then the show starts airing.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Oh, well, wait, I got one more thing.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Okay. So I'm choreographing for free. And. And I think, I can't keep doing this. My other kids are being shoved aside, neglected, and they're the paying customers, right? These bozos are the ones that are disrespectful and cause the trouble.

[Heather McDonald]

Now, are those kids getting paid by lifetime?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

The mothers were, not the kids, the moms. So I said, this is ridiculous.

[Heather McDonald]

And you're still only getting a location fee?

[Abby Lee Miller]

No location fee, Not a dime.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, now are you getting paid anything at the Point?

[Abby Lee Miller]

No.

[Heather McDonald]

The first season you don't get paid.

[Abby Lee Miller]

No, the first three episodes is where I am right now.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So I bring in some other kids that aren't on this show. It's supposed to be a six week docu series. Remember that? Six weeks. So I'm figuring in six weeks it's gonna be over and people are gonna come back, it's gonna be fun.

[Heather McDonald]

I've got it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

They're gonna realize it was nothing.

[Heather McDonald]

Got it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

That's in my back of my mind. So I put other kids that are the level of these kids some better, way better. Behind the cameras to learn the choreography so at least I can use it in my recital. That's what I'm thinking, right? Okay. So one kid comes in with their hair down and socks on and a big sloppy shirt. I'm like, what are you doing? You look like a ragamuffin. Get out of here and come back when you look like a dancer. Meaning run out, put your hair in a binding or a ponytail and get back in here. She never comes back.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But 10 minutes later, her psycho mother slams the door open and starts screaming at me. Screaming. And the kids are like shaking. And so I leave the room saying, what?

[Heather McDonald]

How dare you speak to my daughter like that?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Okay, yes, because that's what I told the kid. It's on camera. We know what I told the kid. But the kid texts her mother. Yeah, Abby said this about me? Abby said that about me. She won't let me in the room, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And gets stirs the pot with the mother. That's what kids do, right? That's what your kid does? Yes. So then she comes in. So I go out of the room and she's chasing me around the den where the kids put their clothes and their coats and stuff. She, like a lunatic, she's chasing me.

[Heather McDonald]

And the cameras are catching this.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Oh my God, they're on me.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So I pick up somebody's cell phone that's laying there. One of the kids flip phone, I open it up and I dial 911.

[Heather McDonald]

Uh huh.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And that dispatcher answers and he says, officer Broadway, what's your emergency? Officer Broadway?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And I look at Satan in the corner. And I'm thinking you intercepted a 911 call.

[Heather McDonald]

Like, how did.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You're not that good. How would they do that?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, how would they do that?

[Abby Lee Miller]

So I said, there's a psycho woman. She's chasing me around the studio. It's my building. It's my property. Come get her. Take her away.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And Officer Broadway says, does she have any weapons? And I said, just her mouth. It was like the heavens parted and the angels were singing. And that was my moment. And when that footage got back to Lifetime.

[Heather McDonald]

But it was a real officer, though.

[Abby Lee Miller]

It was a real officer. And he later brought his daughter to take from my studio.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, my God.

[Abby Lee Miller]

She was too little at the time. But then he brought her years later, and the chief of police's daughter was actually there at the studio too. And they got back to Lifetime the footage, and they said, who is this? Who is this woman? We don't know her. We don't know a picture. And John's like, well, that's the woman's studio you've been using for free. Oh, and my gas bills and my water bills went through the roof because they were there from 8 in the.

[Heather McDonald]

Morning to like, we want you on. We want you on.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Now you need a contract, and we're going to offer you fifteen hundred dollars an episode.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And I said, no, no, no. I don't have an entertainment attorney. I don't even know one of those in Pittsburgh. I bankrupt. I have to check with the bankruptcy court to see if I can do this, if I can get paid. How is this all going to work? Yada, yada, yada, yada. So the next week we're in Arizona to film and we have a different crew because they're not bringing the cheap guys from Pittsburgh. They're hiring other people, right? So we're filming and I had new crew. So I have to tell the guys where they enter and where they exit the kids and where they do the dance. Like, you know, because they don't know the dance. The other guys knew the dance. So I'm standing there and my back is to the audience and the stage is here. And Satan comes over and he puts a piece of paper in front of me and a pen in my hand and says, you have to sign this. It's just an appearance release. He said, everybody that walked in this ballroom had to sign it. And I'm just like, no one's even in the ballroom. He's like, what do you. I turn around and my ass is to 500 people sitting in seats that came in to watch the competition. But I didn't know that because I'm engrossed in what I'm doing right here.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And I grabbed the pen and I signed it. It was an eight year contract. It was a four year contract with a four year option for $1,500 an episode.

[Heather McDonald]

So as the success went on year two and three, you couldn't negotiate anymore.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I did, okay, I did. I did. I hired another. I hired an entertainment attorney. Finally.

[Heather McDonald]

Good.

[Abby Lee Miller]

He screwed up and was awful and was just out of law school. Didn't know that he was suggested by the production company.

[Heather McDonald]

I had some friends that engaged in a deal with somebody who the person said, here, just use my attorney. My attorney. Which I'm like, that's like a realtor that represents both the buyer and the seller. It can happen, but it's probably not in anyone's best interest.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Correct?

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And then I paid that attorney in bankruptcy. Had to pay him $100,000 to get rid of him to get a real entertainment attorney. Okay, so now that's nuts to make. The mothers had a new attorney every week.

[Heather McDonald]

Let me get into the show for a while because I have some questions about the show. It feels like every celebrity has Easy access to GLP1s right now. Right? But what about us regular people? Now you don't need to be rich and famous in order to get access to these medications. Through hers, you can get an affordable weight loss program personalized just for you. Hers is changing women's health care by providing you with access to affordable weight loss treatments. Their holistic approach gives you access to personalized solutions like GLP1 weekly injections that have the same active ingredients as Ozempic and Wegovy and oral medication kits. Through hers weight loss plans are more affordable with compounded GLP1 injections starting at1.99 per month with a 12 month subscription paid upfront, no hidden fees and no membership fees. Start your free online Visit [e-mail] JuiceScoop that's f o r h e r s.com JuiceScoop for your personalized weight loss treatment options for hers.com JuiceScoop hers weight loss is not available everywhere. Compounded products are not FDA approved or verified for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required restrictions apply. Wegovy and Ozempic are not compounded. One thing I love about Rocket Money is they just alerted me that there was an increase in a subscription price. And I looked at it and I was like, I don't know if I'm not into that anymore. That's what I really love. Managing finances can feel complicated and time consuming, right? But it doesn't have to be with Rocket Money. It simplifies everything, making it so easy to see exactly what's happening with your finances, track your spending, and give you full control of all of it right from your phone. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and have saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year. When using all of the app's features, Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com juicy that's rocketmoney.com juic rocketmoney.com too. C so we start watching people start watching the show and we're mesmerized by the incredible dancing, by the jealousy of the mothers for each other and their daughters and all of that. And. But also we get some highlighted moments of where you are frustrated with the girls. And when you see those little snippets or whatever, people feel like, is this any kind of, you know, cruelty towards kids or whatever? And what was that like to get that feedback when you had this successful business for decades and now because it's on tv, people are trying to say that you are, you know, verbally abusive towards children? Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I mean, if it was a football coach saying that stuff, it would have been perfectly acceptable, especially in Pittsburgh.

[Heather McDonald]

You know what, it's just, it's funny that you say that because I literally just was talking about how before doing this interview, I said, you know, there's men all over the world that said my dad made me hate baseball or whatever because it was like so stressful, anxiety driven, all that kind of stuff. And it isn't great. But of those people, some are, you know, some are running to their dad and saying, I can't believe I got the grand slam, you know, in the Dodger game. And others, it didn't work out for them. So it's a very tough thing to do. But if it is a competition and you know, that's the way you make a star. So I guess it's not interesting way.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You make a star. I had students that I still till this day, sweetie, put your leg. You're not wrapping your sur la coup de PA when you come to passe on that develop and they go, oh, and they fix it right away. That was not these kids because they picked these kids without seeing them dance. They picked them on their mother's behavior, personality, camera friendly looks. They didn't pick my best dancers.

[Heather McDonald]

Now where did JoJo come into play?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Okay. JoJo was on a spin off show called Abby's Ultimate Dance Competition, which I loved because I just had to show up every once in a while and yell and just sit in a chair with Robin Anton and Richie Jackson, my buddy and judge. And that's where JoJo came from.

[Heather McDonald]

So she entered that competition.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes. She had submitted stuff for Dance Moms. Season after season, they sat in Nebraska and watched it. We just talked about this on my podcast that I did with JoJo and said, oh my God, why aren't we on this show? We should be on this show. And so then when Abby's ultimate was looking for kids all over the country, they submitted and they got it. And then she came on to Dance Moms and she's very grateful.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes, I've seen that. And so what did you think? I mean, when I see those old. I mean, she's beautiful now, but that little face is just the sweetest with her little face and her eyes would open up wide.

[Abby Lee Miller]

She was a beautiful child.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, yeah, she's a beautiful girl now. But she was really just like a little doll face.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes, she was.

[Heather McDonald]

And so.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And she was a star. Yeah, I knew that. But a star is different than a team member.

[Heather McDonald]

Uh huh.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I wanted the Rockettes. I wanted everybody the same height, the same leg, the same side aerial, side. So that. Or both side side aerials. Let's throw that out there. So that they could learn a routine in two days. We had Wednesday and Thursday to teach those numbers to those kids in several hours because of the filming laws in Pennsylvania are very strict. Thank you to that K plus 8 chick. Yeah. So now we're even under the thumb, being watched every minute and having to pull kids off camera and not learn the routines. So I didn't need JoJo to stand out. I needed her to blend in. And that was my problem with her. And also she was homeschooled since she went to kindergarten. I think she went one semester to kindergarten and never went back. So kids learn how to stand in line, how to raise their hand and ask a question, how to. You can't just run to the water fountain. You need to ask to leave the class. Right. She didn't know that because she was.

[Heather McDonald]

Never in a traditional classroom.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Right. So she didn't know any of those Social graces or rules.

[Heather McDonald]

And that's where the line comes from. Jojo, have you learned nothing?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Because I have. I told her a million times, when two adults are speaking, you say, excuse me.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You don't just interrupt and blurt shit out.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And she did.

[Heather McDonald]

So, in dealing with all these kids, a couple questions. You know, were there times when you did feel, you know, that they were in a bad situation with a parent? Like, you know, where you were, Like, I feel like this could be really detrimental. Like, don't step in. Whether it was on camera or prior to the show, what was that like?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Okay. Prior to the show, I would call Child and Youth Services probably every couple.

[Heather McDonald]

Of years on somebody.

[Abby Lee Miller]

On somebody, yeah. When you saw it the most was when we were doing the pictures, the photo shoots for these big program books that we would do. And you'd see that woman with the hairbrush just going in on the kid. And you're like, hitting.

[Heather McDonald]

Hitting her. Hitting them.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah. And you're like, this is. This is not just today. Because you can tell the way the kid reacts. If the kid screamed and yelled and ran and said, my mom just hit me with a hairdryer, you know, with a hair braid, then it just happened then. But when the kid doesn't react and, like, sucks it in, you know, that's going on every day. And I would see that, yes. And you would call, Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Heather McDonald]

And then would the mother ever retaliate, thinking that you were the one that was the whistleblower?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I think they quit and were never seen again. A little girl that I still train over, zoom now, when her mother was a child, she took from me and she grew up to be a teenager that kind of got in with the wrong crowd and stuff. And she had a baby and would just leave her at the studio and it would be 8 o'clock at night and nobody ever came to pick the kid out. And somebody else at the studio would take the child home with them and feed them and put them to bed or whatever. Yeah, so we had that too.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow.

[Abby Lee Miller]

The Abbey Lee Dance Company in Pittsburgh and my mother's studio. Prior to that, we. It was a safe place. It was a place where you knew your child was safe and they were doing something artistic and athletic and they weren't in the backseat of a car with a boy like, you know what I mean? You knew where your kid was on Wednesday nights at 8:30. You knew that your kid was at the studio.

[Heather McDonald]

Now, what about, you know, when. With gymnastics and ice skating and dancing, how did you Deal with kids that might be on the verge of an eating disorder or that you feel maybe the parents were like, that must be a hard thing.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I had one kid, I probably had some teenagers that tried it or whatever. And the parents would come to me and say we caught them. I'd say, take the bathroom door off the hinges and the bedroom door off the hinges. And that was it. It was one and done. I had one little girl. She's an adult now, she's married, she has two kids. And I still think she's anorexic. Oh, I still think it. And we forbid her to dance. She could watch class, but she was not allowed to dance because the gymnastic teacher at the time was a pharmacist by day and in the medical field. And he came to me and he said, abby, she's going to get hurt.

[Heather McDonald]

She was too fragile and thin. So she wasn't eating.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes. So we forbid her. But it was weird because her dad used to bring her and he used to sit upstairs every single day for hours and watch her in the class. And I'm thinking. And she was young, but she got put in the older kids, teenagers for couple classes, like the warmup and stuff. And these gorgeous girls are doing beat beat straddle with their legs. And he's sitting up there. So we had to stop him from going up because it was making them feel uncomfortable.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, creepy.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I thought, how does this guy drive this little. I don't know, Maybe she was 12 to the studio and not just keep driving to children's hospital.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You have the kid in the car, pass the studio, drive to the hospital. I called the pediatrician because I knew who it was, called the pediatrician in confidentiality and said, this kid has a problem. I either too much exercising at home, you know, like sweating it off or not eating or it's up here. Maybe she doesn't want daddy to watch her like he watches those other teenage girls.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Maybe she doesn't want to develop and grow up.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, very true.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Or we had another little one in the studio that was older but petite and tiny and won everything and got all the auditions because she was 14 but looked 10.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And she could read a script like a 14 year old. Right. And maybe she was jealous of her and wanted to be like that and thought, if I don't eat, I won't grow. I don't know, there's something going on. Called the pediatrician in good faith. The next day the mother came into the studio, stormed in and demanded to see me. In my office and shut the door and said, how dare you call our pediatrician. That is our business and we are dealing with it. I still don't think they've dealt with it.

[Heather McDonald]

So what did you do then? Did you say leave?

[Abby Lee Miller]

She can't dance.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Till she puts the weight on. And she did. She ended up working for me. She worked on the show a little bit.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, okay. So she got better.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes. But still, I don't think she's better.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. I mean, that's a hard thing to come over. And then as the show became so popular and the moms became famous and some of the kids became famous, what was, like, the best and the worst part of it and yourself included in that, what was the greatest, like, thing about becoming famous and having this hit show? And then what was the worst?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Well, the worst was losing my business.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes. And if I, you know, hindsight again, if I would have demanded that all the kids be homeschooled before the show started. Those six weeks. You have to be homeschooled for the six weeks. And we shot from 8 in the morning until 4. It's done, camera crews are gone, and then my business goes back to normal. I would still have a booming business in Pittsburgh till this day, I'm sure of it. Or I would have sold it to somebody and I had something to sell. Right, right. But they didn't. So it destroyed the business.

[Heather McDonald]

Got it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And with that being said, the moms started to do these meet and greets and charge 100 bucks for somebody to take a picture with their kid and this and that, but the kid, they were missing their dance classes, their regular training. Not the show, of course, but also.

[Heather McDonald]

And that's also work. That's also their working longer, taking. Doing meet and greets as a child. And who was going to the meet and greets?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I know I'm sure it was mostly.

[Heather McDonald]

Girls and boys, but were there any adult men going to these meet and.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Greets that I don't know about so much?

[Heather McDonald]

Because.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah, but I know one kid that built her family a home. They lived in nothing. They came from nothing.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, with.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And they live in a huge mansion now that the kid built from the.

[Heather McDonald]

Success of the show and going on.

[Abby Lee Miller]

In their own private meet and greets and pretending to teach dance classes when they weren't teachers and stuff like that. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And then with Jojo, I know that she then built this YouTube channel and she had all these products.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah, that's a regret. I should have been sitting next to her on the Bus. Learning to edit and upload and do all that myself. Because, JoJo, you give the kid a computer and she'll make you a million dollars. I should have been doing that. I should have had cameras in that studio. I could have been teaching Zoom all over the world then. I mean, we all didn't know what Zoom was till the pandemic, Right. Yeah. I could have done a lot of things with JoJo.

[Heather McDonald]

That money went towards supporting her family as well. However, she's doing so well now. It's not a problem now if she hadn't built an adult career, you know, which is like the classic thing of, you know. So it's good that everything has worked out for JoJo and she's continuing to be an artist.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But, yeah, I think she could have kept going with the kid thing, too. I mean, kids love her.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You know, and now with the resurgence of the show.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You know, so I don't know if everyone that's watching.

[Heather McDonald]

How do you feel about how sexual she's gotten with her art now?

[Abby Lee Miller]

You know? Well, Richie Jackson is her choreographer, and so I'm working with him on another project. So I knew what the video was going to be like, the first video, and I knew that every single undulation was choreographed, was counted out, and everybody is so professional on set. It may not look like that, but it was because I had some of my girls there that were extras in it, too. I think Jojo's laughing all the way to the bank.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, yeah. I think it's great.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Whether she's selling a bow or a sexy song or.

[Heather McDonald]

Wearing a glittered dick on the COVID of a magazine.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Whatever.

[Heather McDonald]

Whatever sells, sells. Yeah. She said in her. I saw a clip from her, which I have not watched the whole thing, but Child Star and Hulu, where she said, I got addicted to the numbers. I got addicted to how many subscribers I had and how many views I had on YouTube. And then I set another goal for the following month and the following month and the following. And then one day she said, I don't want this anymore. And I remember I used to be like, first of all, I thought she was gay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Very young.

[Heather McDonald]

I was like, this girl's gay and she's wearing these bows and she's too old to be wearing bows. When can she break from the bows and be herself? So I was really happy to see her break and do what she wants, whatever that is. Style, singing, dancing. Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I'm thrilled that she's still dancing.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I was teaching at her studio Saturday, and she showed Up.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And she was like, she didn't take my class because my class is too hard.

[Heather McDonald]

But it's interesting that she still loves the fame. I mean, she drives two cars around that her face and her name are wrapped in it. She lives in my neighborhood. I saw her. I chased her down.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Oh, good.

[Heather McDonald]

And, well, I don't think she knew who I was. I think she just thought I was a weird mom, saying jojo. Because then I acted like I was walking by the house, and I was like, jojo. Heather Tullford. Juicy scoop. And she's like, hey. And she just went back into her house. But anyway, I think that's great. I think it's great that, you know, she has a good relationship with you. And so.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Well, she knows she wouldn't be where she was if it wasn't for the success of the show.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And I also think she understands reality tv because she went on. She judges a reality TV show, so she's on the other side of the fence, has to create the drama.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

She was on that crazy show where they were out in the middle of New Zealand somewhere, and she had carried a guy on her back and. All right.

[Heather McDonald]

Special forces.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes, Special Forces. So she's done it. She knows it. All the other kids, even though they went on to maybe do some other things. Gonna leave that with a facial expression.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

They weren't reality TV things, so.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Oh, it was horrible. It was this and toxic, blah, blah, blah. And it's like you have a million dollars in the bank. You're living in a $2 million house that you bought yourself. You're 20 years old, and there's millions of young girls that would trade places with you in a heartbeat. So stop saying it was so tragic. When you were 10, you wanted to win. You wanted to be the best, and you had a week break. Where were you? With me, traveling somewhere. Being my demonstrator in my class.

[Heather McDonald]

So now let's cut to when you had to go and do a year in prison.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I was in a witch hunt because of the character that I depicted on the show, guaranteed.

[Heather McDonald]

Listen, I didn't know you very well, and that's what I thought.

[Abby Lee Miller]

What was that?

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, I didn't know you personally, and I didn't really watch the show religiously, but just from what I saw, I was like, who is this woman screaming at these little kids all the time? And now she is a convicted criminal.

[Abby Lee Miller]

21 indictments and one stuck. 20 were proven wrong, and one stuck. And it sickens me to say this I went to prison for eight and a half months. It was a year and a day sentence. I served eight and a half months because I was maybe going to walk away from a vacation home in 2010.

[Heather McDonald]

What do you mean walk away from a vacation home?

[Abby Lee Miller]

We couldn't. My bankruptcy attorneys were trying to get Chase bank, who held the mortgage at that time on my house, the adjustable mortgage, to negotiate a standard rate, you know, a set rate. So it wasn't adjustable anymore. And they couldn't get them to play ball. They couldn't get a hold of them, they wouldn't email back, they wouldn't phone call back. Nothing could not get through. And I live in a, like a cul de sac. It's not a cul de sac. It's like a round loop.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And seven houses out of the 11 people left, they just walked away from their homes in their mortgage. Because a lot of expats in Orlando, you know, bought vacation homes.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And till this day, I still own that house. I still make the payments. I never walked away from it.

[Heather McDonald]

So what?

[Abby Lee Miller]

My bankruptcy attorney, on my behalf, without my knowledge. Because I made it perfectly clear I wasn't giving up the house because I was too afraid I wouldn't get credit again to buy another home. That was my philosophy. So I was sticking by that. No, no, no. Just, just.

[Heather McDonald]

So if you were to go back, you would have been like, take everything or are you okay with now that the time is done?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

You would have said.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I would have went back. I would have just paid it off.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So with the TV show. So when you're not allowed to do that in bankruptcy, okay. You can't get a chunk of money and pay one person back.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You can't. So I owed that 37,000.

[Heather McDonald]

Got it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And when they put everything all in, okay, My cars, my house, my parents house, everything in. Yeah, it was 620 grand. That was it. That was it.

[Heather McDonald]

So what was prison like for eight months? Hell, you didn't make any friends.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I made wonderful friends.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I made a best friend that I still have.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, that's good.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Shout out to Michelle. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And so were you with like white collar criminals or were you with any, like, murderers?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I was with white collar criminals who just got there or I was with hard criminals who worked their way up status wise with good behavior to be.

[Heather McDonald]

In a more legal.

[Abby Lee Miller]

To be in a camp. A prison camp.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes. It was like your parents dropped you off at the wrong girl scout camp.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Not the one with the horseback riding in the Swimming pool right in the good food. The other one, the cheap one. That's what it was like.

[Heather McDonald]

And there were, like, bunk beds all.

[Abby Lee Miller]

In one room at the beginning.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You stay there, and then you get assigned a square.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

A rectangle, if you will. So it's all one room. The ceiling's open.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But you're in with two girls, and you have two sets of lockers and two bunk in a bunk bed. And I was on the bottom.

[Heather McDonald]

And at any point, did you set up a dance team there? Yes, you did.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So your visitors come on the weekend, and instead of it just being the normal candy out of the vending machine, it's party for the holidays.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So Christmas or Hanukkah, whatever you. You know. And of course, I got a group of girls together, and I taught them Santa Claus is Coming to town. It's a 60s number. Santa Claus coming. But the Pointer Sisters, we got the.

[Heather McDonald]

Music, and then their families got to see it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes. Oh, that's kids.

[Heather McDonald]

They're so cute. That's so sweet.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And then we took pictures. We had group pictures, and it was fabulous.

[Heather McDonald]

At any point when you got there, was there any time that people were mean and bullying because you're famous until they got to know you?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

And what kind of bullying, type of mean thing would they do?

[Abby Lee Miller]

It was the guards.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, the guards were bitter and awful. Not the prisoners.

[Abby Lee Miller]

No. Some of them were just like, ah. Who does she think she is? Other ones were, oh, my God, Mike, you have made this okay for me. Oh, that's because my children were so humiliated, embarrassed, angry with me, not speaking with me. They want to disown me. And then you come here and suddenly I'm cool because, you know, Abby Lee Miller, we want to come visit you. Can we see her? Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. So that was great.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And I took a lot of pictures.

[Heather McDonald]

What about lesbian love in prison?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I think if you're a lesbian before you go in.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You're a lesbian there.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

There was a few people, I think, turned that way.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Just because they needed something. And they're there for years and years and years. I. No, you didn't see anything. I like hot guys.

[Heather McDonald]

You didn't see anyone do the family thing where they'd. Where it'd be like a family, where they'd act like a mom and dad and then another girl would act like their child and they'd form a little weird family unit? No, I've seen that in prison.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Most of the drama was over the microwave.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, how many People can use it. Or waiting.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Waiting in line to use it. And so I get there and I think, well, what's the big deal? I'm just going to have my friend Diana order a couple dozen microwaves. Like what? So I did. I ordered a dozen for one unit and a dozen for the other unit. And they came and they got turned away.

[Heather McDonald]

They got turned away. Oh, because they wouldn't allow it.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Of course you're not allowed. But I didn't know that you would.

[Heather McDonald]

Have thought it would be done.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Another time the kitchen was broken or something happened and they had to give us bagged lunch with peanut butter and jelly and an apple or whatever. And I was like, can we just order pizza? Like, oh, I can do it. I'll order the pizza. Like what? Like, it's very backwards.

[Heather McDonald]

Did the guards get nicer to you once they got to know you?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Some of the guards. Well, I shouldn't say guards. Some of the correctional officers, counselors.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, okay.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Stuff like that. They were like, what are you doing here? We read your entire case. What are you doing here? It's ridiculous. If this would have happened in California, you would have got a letter in the mail.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So that was tough to take.

[Heather McDonald]

So we're going to wrap it up. But in doing all this, how do you feel about, like, in conclusion.

[Abby Lee Miller]

This conclusion took me off my medication, and that caused me to be in this chair at the prison cold turkey. Metformin for diabetes and very high dose, 325of thyroid medication, Levoxyl, Synthroid. And they took me off of a cold turkey. I feel, as a punishment for something that happened. And they. I got out, and a week later, I was visiting six doctors in 10 days getting. Go home and take it easy, honey. When they see that you're in prison or coming from a halfway house and I had cancer choking my spinal cord, it left me in a chair. If any one of those six doctors are listening, if you would have cut it sooner, if you would have believed me and listened to me, I wouldn't be in this chair.

[Heather McDonald]

Mm. Wow. So in looking back at everything, do you feel that, like, this series of events, of being on this show, do you just feel like you were taken great advantage of and then, like, a series of unfortunate events then followed through?

[Abby Lee Miller]

I don't know if they were unfortunate or they were calculated events.

[Heather McDonald]

Right? Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes, I definitely.

[Heather McDonald]

And had catastrophic, you know, results.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes, absolutely.

[Heather McDonald]

So now going forward, you have such, like, a positive attitude. They didn't kill that.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Thank you. So going forward, I think that God Let me live. So I need to live.

[Heather McDonald]

I think God let you live to redeem yourself here on Juicy Scoop.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Well, I'm thrilled to be here. It's fabulous, and I love your necklace. I'm gonna need one of those for my show.

[Heather McDonald]

Thank you. Yes. But I do think, like, you know, I know that you said you're working on other projects. You have other things going. You are a really positive light. It really was definitely not portrayed in the show.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Never saw the good times. You never saw the laughter with the kids.

[Heather McDonald]

No, you never did.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And I just had that.

[Heather McDonald]

And so what would be your advice to somebody that might be in some other business or whatnot, and they go, oh, my God, they want to make a reality show about me, or I'm up for joining a reality show. What would be your advice to someone like that?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Get a really good attorney, get an even better accountant, and then question every single thing that they do. Read the fine print.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. That's nice. Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I was working. I had a camera on my face 12 hours a day, every day.

[Heather McDonald]

I also think you started. What year did you begin?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Like, 2011.

[Heather McDonald]

That's still beginnings of reality show. I mean, we're 2024 now. That was 13 years ago. Like, a lot has happened. And you certainly.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I think the government.

[Heather McDonald]

There was no way to be savvy at that time as a dance studio teacher. Yeah. In Pittsburgh, not in Hollywood. Not having a TV background. Like, what do you expect, you know? And who would have thought again, you thought it was gonna be six weeks. Who would have thought it would be this huge success? And then once the train has left the station, like, then what are you supposed to do, you know?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Right. And I just felt, I'm a woman. I'm a confident woman. I'm a strong woman. I get my fight from my dad.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But had he been alive, he would have punched that Satan guy in the face, and they would have not got in my studio for free.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

You know what I'm saying? Things would have been a little different. I didn't have anyone that had my back. I had friends. I still have them. They're my dear, dear friends forever. But they weren't in a position to say, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. You're not coming in here. They didn't know TV either.

[Heather McDonald]

Have any of those mothers that you may have had conflict with, have any of them come around and try to reconnect in a positive way, or have any of them come back and been that much more vengeful?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Or what is, like, the Mall took money from me. And who took money from you and forged checks?

[Heather McDonald]

One of them did.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And is that out there as public record?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Melissa?

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Maddie, Mackenzie's mom. Oh, Mackenzie's had a little music career. I started that. I believed in her because she wasn't that great of a dancer. So I thought, she likes to sing. We'll do this. And we did. It's a girl party. It went to number one in three countries. It's still out there. It's still making money. And I haven't seen one dime. And we had a 360 deal with the kid and she just moves on and signs something else with somebody else. Yeah. So.

[Heather McDonald]

But are there any moms that you're close with or regained a friendship with?

[Abby Lee Miller]

JoJo's mom.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

And I. Yes. Bryn's mom, Ashley. Oh, goodness. Yeah, lots of them.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, that's good. Yeah, Good, good.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But the original ones from my studio that paid $242 a month dance tuition for 16 hours and ended up with millions from their dancing school. Like, from there?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Abby Lee Miller]

No.

[Heather McDonald]

Interesting.

[Abby Lee Miller]

None. I was dying in the hospital. Dying. Not one visitor from those kids. Some kids did come, but not those original kids.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow.

[Abby Lee Miller]

But JoJo walked in with a $10,000 check from dancers Against Cancer for me.

[Heather McDonald]

That's great. Yeah, that's great.

[Abby Lee Miller]

I just gave it back last month to the charity.

[Heather McDonald]

Because now you're doing much better.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes, yes.

[Heather McDonald]

And so tell everybody where they can follow you and find you and listen to what you're doing.

[Abby Lee Miller]

So my podcast is Leave it on the Dance Floor. And wherever you listen to your podcast, check it out. Please subscribe, like, turn on your post notifications and all that jazz. My Instagram is herealabby Le TikTok, herealabby Lee, and mainly my YouTube channel, Abby Lee Miller. Please, please, please go watch, subscribe. It's fabulous.

[Heather McDonald]

Awesome. Well, this has been so great.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Thank you so much.

[Heather McDonald]

I learned so much. It was fascinating. You did?

[Abby Lee Miller]

Yes. We can go to lunch.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Okay.

[Heather McDonald]

Thank you.

[Abby Lee Miller]

Thank you.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, thank you so much, you guys. I love you. And as you know, go to heathermcdonald.net to join my Patreon and also to buy my tickets for my February shows. What a great treat for Christmas. You guys get those tickets now and get the best seats that are still available. And that's February 14th, New York City. February 15th, Washington D.C. february 16th, Red Bank, New Jersey. That is a Valentine's holiday weekend. So what a perfect time to go and see a funny standup show. Thank you, Angie. Has made it easier than ever to connect with skilled professionals to get all your jobs projects done well.

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