Dr. Drew on Unknown Number Catfish Doc, Cardi B and Prison Housewives

Summary

Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

Episode Title: Dr. Drew on Unknown Number Catfish Doc, Cardi B and Prison Housewives
Release Date: September 4, 2025
Host: Heather McDonald
Guest: Dr. Drew Pinsky

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into a whirlwind of juicy pop culture: recent legal dramas involving celebrities, headlines about reality TV stars, rumors from Hollywood, and—most notably—a deep-dive discussion with Dr. Drew Pinsky about the shocking “Unknown Number” documentary. The doc tells the true story of a mother who cyberbullied her own daughter, sending sexual and suicidal messages over nearly two years.

Heather and Dr. Drew dissect the motivations, pathology, and emotional fallout of this real-life catfish case. The conversation explores family dynamics, addiction, the psychology of online cruelty, and broader cultural trends around technology and parenting.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cardi B’s Court Case & Celebrity Trials

• Heather recaps Cardi B’s victorious 2018 court case, where she was accused of scratching a woman with her nails during her first pregnancy.
• Heather highlights the bizarre moments in the courtroom—Cardi’s ever-changing wigs, the odd questions from counsel, and Cardi’s candid responses.
  • “Is that your real hair?” — “I don’t think so, it’s a wig.” — Cardi B, as recounted by Heather (01:35)
• The case is likened to other high-profile trials, e.g., Gwyneth Paltrow’s skiing accident, with celebrities navigating public perception even on the witness stand.

2. Housewives Behind Bars

• Karen Huger’s legal troubles (Real Housewives of Potomac) — her recent DUI conviction and stint behind bars.
• Heather pitches a humorous podcast concept: “Doing Time with Tree, The Dom, and The Shaw,” featuring Teresa Giudice, Karen Huger, and Jen Shah discussing their prison experiences (07:30).

3. Scooter Braun & Sydney Sweeney Rumors

• Heather addresses industry gossip about Scooter Braun and Sydney Sweeney’s rumored relationship and the age gap discourse (08:30).

4. Engagement Ultimatums & Podcast Culture

• The tale of Travis (of Travis and Taylor) waiting until Taylor guested on his podcast to propose. Commentary on men leveraging podcast appearances as relationship milestones (09:30).

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The Unknown Number Catfish Documentary

Main Segment Starts: [11:00]

5. The Case Recap: A Shocking Maternal Betrayal

• Heather introduces Dr. Drew to discuss the story of two teens, Lauren and Owen, from Michigan, who are relentlessly cyberbullied via anonymous group texts.
• The texts, which targeted Lauren, were extremely graphic and sexual—shockingly later revealed to be sent by Lauren’s own mother, Kendra ([12:00]).

Notable Quote

• “It’s not just ‘oh, she cyberbullied her daughter.’ The texts, Drew, are disgusting… really, really sexual stuff, which then even freaks you out more that it’s the mother.”
  — Heather (13:17)

6. How the Mother Was Caught

• The harassment went on for 22 months before being traced back to Kendra via her IP address.
• Law enforcement finally intervened after parents’ and school’s failed attempts to stop the harassment ([15:30]).

Notable Quote

• “Nothing like body cam footage when someone gets caught… the moment they knock on her door and it all changes.”
  — Heather (15:39)

7. The Extent of the Cruelty

• Kendra’s messages became more explicit and cruel over time, at one point telling her daughter to “off yourself already” and “if you’re not gonna kill yourself, we will. #bang” ([21:17]).

• Documentarian asks if Kendra feared for Lauren’s safety:
  • “No, I mean, I know my daughter really well and I was not concerned that she’d actually do that.” — Kendra (as quoted by Heather, 23:10)

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Dr. Drew’s Clinical Analysis and Commentary

8. The Psychology Behind Kendra’s Actions

• Munchausen by Proxy—Internet Age: Dr. Drew describes the mother’s behavior as “internet Munchausen by proxy.”

  • She maintained toxic control, kept her daughter dependent, and also played the victim to gain sympathy from her community ([25:17]).

  “There’s no boundary between the mom and the child… the child is essentially in a cult of two.”
  — Dr. Drew (25:22)

• Criminality, Addiction, and Dissociation

  • Drew discusses how such behaviors often accompany addiction, personality disorders, and sometimes even dissociative identity phenomena ([32:26]).
  • Compares it to process addictions (like porn addiction), noting how the steady dopamine hits from online activity can spiral out of control.

• No Justification

  • Trauma might explain behavior, but Drew emphasizes that “there’s no ‘therefore.’ There’s no justification for the behavior—the behavior is sick” ([32:26]).

9. Interview with the Daughter & Family Fallout

• The daughter, Lauren, remained emotionally closed off, still expressing love for her mother despite the harm—Drew calls this typical in cases of trauma bonding ([25:22]).
• Drew suggests Lauren’s path to recovery requires individuation and forgiveness, but maintaining distance from her mother for safety ([75:44]).

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Further Themes and Juicy Commentary

10. Cultural Reactions to Maternal Abuse

• Heather and Drew analyze why mothers bullying or undermining their daughters triggers such visceral reactions among women.
  • “I think as women we are overprotective and we are more angry when we see another mother abuse their power.” — Heather (36:10)
• Comparisons to high-profile cases of female teachers abusing male students; skepticism over pop culture narratives that minimize the trauma for young men ([37:43]).

11. Women’s Desire for Attention & Societal Influences

• Drew probes the psychology of female attention-seeking, especially as it relates to the “male gaze” and social status ([64:06]).
• Heather reflects on how media and romantic comedies shaped women’s ideas about being “chosen”—contrasting real-life dynamics ([65:19]).
  • “Guys don’t notice the quiet girl in the corner. You need to go right up and… have eye contact… It is not that, but it’s this weird fantasy…” — Heather (66:45)

12. Parenting, Phones, and Adolescent Mental Health

• Discussion on the role of smartphones in exacerbating bullying and mental health issues among teens, with both supporting strong limits on adolescent screen time ([57:15]).
• Drew says, “The number one cause of distress in adolescence is the screen, the phone.” (57:15)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “It’s one thing if someone’s harassed, but how about changing your phone number or taking away the phone altogether?” — Heather (15:25)
• “‘No, I was not concerned my daughter’d actually do that [commit suicide].’” — Kendra (as quoted, 23:10)
• “There’s no ‘therefore’… no justification for this behavior. The behavior is sick.” — Dr. Drew (32:26)
• “She’s got done enough damage that even if she’s into a glorious recovery and it’s years down the road I’d still have supervision.” — Dr. Drew (75:44)
• “That mother… was just dying for attention. Coaching, teaching, the center of every room. If you’re a bad person at the root, it’s a gateway to fuck over a whole different group of people.” — Heather (63:18)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Cardi B trial recap: [00:00 – 04:49]
• Real Housewives jail discussion & pop culture news: [05:17 – 11:00]
• Intro to “Unknown Number” Catfish Case: [11:00]
• Case breakdown, mother’s arrest: [13:30 – 21:00]
• Analysis of Kendra’s psychological profile: [25:17 – 34:22]
• Discussion on female teacher predation, gendered trauma: [34:22 – 39:40]
• Phones, technology, and parenting: [57:15 – 61:18]
• Societal/gender norms, media influence, and motherhood: [64:06 – 74:06]
• Final reflections on Lauren’s future, boundaries, and recovery: [74:16 – 76:04]

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Closing Thoughts

Heather and Dr. Drew’s discussion is a candid, sometimes darkly funny, yet always compassionate examination of a uniquely disturbing case and its broader cultural implications. The episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the psychology of online cruelty, parent-child dynamics, technology’s effects on teens, and the ever-juicy world of modern scandals.

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For more from Dr. Drew:
— Live streamed interviews Tues-Thurs at 2PM (see drdrew.com, 79:16)
— Welcomes feedback (but not abuse) from the “Juicy Scoopers” (79:45)

Listen Next:
Subscribe to Heather’s new show, Juicy Crime, for deeper dives into true crime with that signature Juicy Scoop spin!

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Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

Heather mcdonald has got the juicy scoop when you're on the road when you're on the go juicy scoop is the show to know she talks hollywood tales her real life mister segment serial data and cereal sister you'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast listen in listen up hannah mcdonald's juicy scoop hello and welcome to juicy scoop oh my god let's get into it first of all you may have heard all the funny things or little quick videos of cardi b on the stand and you might have been confused as i was like what is this case even about well she just won the jury went and spoke about it for an hour and came back in cardi b's favor this is what happened when she was pregnant with her first child with offset she hadn't told anybody not her family no one and she was at her obgyn and when she was approaching the office this female security guard was filming her and according to cardi b she was like in her face with the camera and with her phone trying to get video of her and cardi b had words with her well this woman this is in twenty eighteen said that she was attacked by cardi b's long nails we know that she likes her nails scratched her face and was suing now they had a full jury trial and much like those great moments that happened with gwyneth paltrow when the guy tried to sue her saying that that you know she ran into him or he ran into her whatever while they were skiing and she was just so so gwyneth in every goop way of just mm well yes it was a half day of skiing and that is quite pricey but you know well cardi b was giving us all her cardi b's she wore a different wig every day and it was so weird because the opposing counsel would ask her the strangest things like is that your real hair and she's like i don't think so it's a wig and then he was trying to talk about the event and he says to her well who you know what do you think of her and she's like well i mean i think she's bigger than i am i mean she was bigger and he's like how do you know that why would you say that and she's like i know it because i have eyes i mean and then you'd be like because i was pregnant okay i was pregnant like there were just these moments and the audience would just not the audience but the jury the people in the court would just burst out laughing anyway it definitely seemed like she was in the right and she had the doctor and also the receptionist say that they saw what happened they heard an altercation outside and that's what she agreed to too she said it was a verbal altercation and that it never got physical and the jury sided with her and they came back with their verdict in less than an hour so there you go cardi b is free to go on with her bad self this episode of juicy scoop is brought to you by booking dot com booking yeah from vacation rentals to hotels across the us booking dot com has the ideal stay for anyone even those who might seem impossible to please listen whether you're doing a fiftieth birthday party a bachelorette party whatever it is you're taking your family you've got your in laws we all know that you want specific needs met and booking dot com has it for you find exactly what you're booking for booking dot com comma booking yeah book today on the side or in the app with summer in full swing i feel that urge to just refresh my closet that's where quince comes in one hundred percent european linen tops starting at dollar thirty washable silk dresses and skirts and soft cotton sweaters i mean so versatile i just got the cutest white linen blazer that just goes with everything give your summer closet an upgr trade with quince go to quince dot com juicy for free shipping on your order and three hundred sixty five day returns that's q u i n c e dot com juicy to get free shipping and three hundred sixty five day returns quince dot com juicy does it ever feel.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void well with linkedin ads you can know you're reaching the right decision makers you you can even target buyers by job title industry company seniority skills wait did i say job title yet get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with linkedin ads we'll even give you a one hundred dollars credit on your next campaign get started at linkedin dot com results terms and.

[Heather McDonald]

Conditions apply karen huger of real housewives of potomac case you're not familiar she calls herself the grand dame she's been on the show for as long as it's been around maybe eight years and she got her fourth dui a couple years ago and she fought it she decided to go to trial on it and she was convicted and just finished doing six months behind bars and she is ready she is back she's got her hair done she's wearing shorts and a trench coat coat she's sixty two and there you go and she's going to have she's out with supervision i guess that means like probation if she does well that probation for five years will be cut down to three she cannot drive for a year and when she does is able to drive it'll be with a i guess maybe something where you have to blow into it to drive the car and there you go but i'm just thinking like can't she just afford a driver or self driving i wonder if self driving would eliminate that whole having to blow into the thing if it's just an ai robot driving your car do you still have to blow into the ignition just thinking about it anyway so she's done six months we know teresa did a full year from real houses of new jersey jen shaw is going to get out i think in less than a year so i you're welcome the world i thought of the next i heart radio podcast with these ladies it's called doing time with tree the dom and the shaw with the tree the dom and the shaw okay doing time with the tree the dom and the shah a podcast where they talk actually talk about when they did time together and what was similar what was different what they learned whatever maybe it wouldn't last forever but they usually don't so that's my idea you're welcome okay let me see scooter braun you know scooter braun notorious scooter braun from the music industry he is rumored to be dating sydney sweeney this rumor was a little bit talked about when they were at the bezos wedding together and there's but the that video from when they were in venice like resurfaced over labor day weekend and now sources are coming forward saying yes they're dating but it's casual it's a casual hookup there is a seventeen year age difference he's forty four she's twenty seven which i'm like that's not that big of a difference but then when i realize that my own daughter is you know twenty five i kind of go that is kind of old to be dating someone that much older than you but anyway we'll see what happens with that travis we found out that travis did propose to taylor right after they finished recording the podcast i mean i was slightly joking when i said he was holding that out dangling that ring in front of her until she agreed to go on his podcast and it's true i wonder how many other male podcasters that have a more famous girlfriend are saying like look either you come on the podcast or we're not getting engaged i mean this is i don't know if there's that many more dynamics like that but maybe even people that aren't that famous since everyone has a podcast and you're like oh my boyfriend's so annoying i know i don't want to be on your dumb podcast and he's like really you don't you know who went on their dumb boyfriends podcast taylor swift you know who's engaged now taylor swift so he right after they finished doing the podcast he said let's have a glass of wine in my garden before we go out to dinner and while they're doing the podcast i guess is when he had the flower people come and set up his garden so then he could ask her to marry him and then gave her the ring and then they called their parents and said don't forget to listen to tomorrow's episode it drops at midnight oh and also we're engaged and so exciting is that i too have dropped a whole new podcast called juicy crime and you can subscribe right now the link is in the description below click on that and subscribe the first episode is out right now new episodes drop every wednesday and you are going to love it so do it and getting into one of a very juicy crime that captured my attention i have my friend doctor drew who joined in to talk about it because you guys were begging for it so let's get into the mother who cyber bullied her own daughter crazy welcome doctor drew hello and welcome to juicy scoop i have such a juicy guest for you you guys specially requested this because everyone is talking about this crazy documentary over the weekend and you specifically said please get doctor drew on we we want to have him weigh in on i think one of the worst mothers in modern day history okay and the documentary welcome doctor drew thank you for coming thank.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You a pleasure to be here we rushed it to get to the juicy scoopers and i have always felt so welcomed by your world like i said i've told you before i run into them all over the country and they're such enthusiasts and i welcome i'm so privileged to be a part of this.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh well thank you so much and you know you just reminded me because you have such a great setup at home because we are doing this via zoom that when you had your cnn show the hln show i used to come on a lot and those are good times that's why i feel like our friendship really got strong because we're real friends anyway let's get into we're.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Gonna go vacation in january yes we.

[Heather McDonald]

Have a fun we have a fun wedding to go to which we'll share with you as we get closer but to fill people in if you've not seen this doc it is i am going to do some spoilers it was a true story that happened in twenty twenty that i covered so when i start talking about it if you've been in juicy scoop for that long you'll remember it because i was fascinated by is about two young teenagers lauren and owen that were innocent like fourteen year old boyfriend girlfriend known each other since they were twelve families knew each other the the town was extremely small isabella county in michigan and all of a sudden they both start getting text messages in a group text that is very negative towards lauren saying like he doesn't want to be with you owen he wants to be with me and for they kind of walk you through it and they think for a while it's mean girls or somebody else that may have dated owen or knew or liked him or a girl on her basketball team like her nemesis and the documentary does a great job walking you through making you wonder now right when i saw this i said oh i know it's the mom i remember the story it is the mom it's lauren's mom and so like i said there was going to be a spoiler but they do they did a great job for the people that don't know the crime so a lot of people are shocked it's getting a lot of reaction it infuriated me when it happened back in twenty twenty i just couldn't believe what like a thirsty disgusting bitch this person was and it's not just oh she you know cyber bullied her daughter i mean the texts drew are disgusting yeah they're very very sexual saying to the boy and to lauren he doesn't want to be with you if you're not going to give him blow jobs and this is i'm gonna say it cause it's a juice scoop but like his fingers and my you know pee and all this other stuff really graphic really really sexual stuff which then even freaks you out more that it's the mother.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah it's weird i did not know.

[Heather McDonald]

That element of it when the story came out in twenty twenty i just thought it was a girl a mother that was cyberbullying her daughter to get attention and for everyone to feel sorry for the daughter and i thought it was very very weird back then but this documentary really spells it out and it went on for twenty two months before she was caught and the way she was caught is finally i mean finally the authorities because she couldn't block the call obviously when you get a weird call i just got a dirty call the other day drew oh an old fashioned like like a nineteen seventies like us and big titties call what.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Did we used to call those we.

[Heather McDonald]

Called them like photographic phone calls that's what my mom used to call it.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

A name like anyway that used to be a thing people would breathe heavy on the other end of the line.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah like on a landline and it was just a random thing and i i hung up and they called back and then i blocked it and then that's it you know but this there was something about the way she set up the phone that it was this this whatever thing feature that you could have that would hide the hide who the caller was and you were able to block it and you know other people wrote in the things why wouldn't you just get your daughter a new phone like how like what is she running a fortune five hundred company you can get a new number you can get a new phone right but it's interesting that the parents didn't do that.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Including owen's mom is that when you knew something was up with the mom.

[Heather McDonald]

Well i mean i i already okay i already knew that i already knew the story but i was watching with my son drake and he he he said he didn't know but then he said he started to figure it out towards like the end and before it was revealed but it's a great reveal because it's the body cam nothing like body cam footage when someone gets caught yeah i don't it's just like the most fascinating and he they show up at her house and the mom because they basically they finally get the the warrants and the everything to go to the tech companies and to the verizons or whatever and they figure out the ip address is the mother whose name kendra and and it's you know for two years it's been her and who started the investigation well they you know the parents of other parents yeah no first owen's parents because he was getting them and both they were good friends lauren and owen the boyfriend and girlfriend both their mothers kendra and i forgot her name they were good friends they were social friends they knew each other from before the kids were like at all like a little couple or whatever wow and so they went to the school they felt the school wasn't doing enough they were trying to do their own investigation like if text would pop up and it would be like in a group text and they kind of be like oh my god it's it's that weird person that started the group text and they'd kind of be looking who is looking at their phone right now that's not part of this call could they be the one that's doing it and the school tried to do that too and you know and it just was so alienating and then you know eventually they break up as a of kind couple and he gets another little girlfriend and she starts getting the gross calls oh my god and text messages so then she breaks up with him so crazy and again watching it as awful as it is because you're like no you know when someone's harassed or whatever they shouldn't have to change their phone they shouldn't have to move but at the same time i was like it's a teenager to feel like don't have a phone for three months and then let's get you a new number and like see if like this doesn't go away but really the juice is that it was the mother and when she's confronted with it and i'm just kind of jumping through not letting you really talk because then i want you to like analyze this woman so she what's crazy is she was a teacher at the school oh she coached a couple teams she had lied to her husband for ten months about a job that she had that she didn't have she said she was quit she quit when she was fired she was in charge of the finances in which they had you know struggled financially but he was just like going through the motions and also what was so funny in the doc is when they come in with the body cam they said oh we're you know we were going through financial struggles we were so broke i know it's different in other states than california but they live on the water okay they lived on the water it was a tiny house they lived on the water and when they walked in it wasn't it was kind of like a shit show as far as like you know mismatching furniture stuff but the entire dining room table was stacked with different balls of alcohol oh and the documentary person never mentioned it nobody else ever mentioned it and she's like they tell the daughter and she was just like no reaction which i wondered if people thought did she possibly ever know that it was her mom or something or you know and then she's hugging her daughter i just want to be with my daughter i just want to be with my daughter with her annoying fucking face i just want to be with my okay and the husband is like you need to go you need to call your parents right now we are done we are done like i don't want anything to do with you ever again call your parents right now and go just like but what about my daughter no so she gets arrested and she did get convicted of like cyber stalking and did nineteen months and and lauren the daughter still is like i love my mom and i miss my mom and the things that she says in her interview so that i was like how was this woman willing to do this documentary they already did a movie like a made for tv movie where lisa rinna played her so now i want to watch that that came out like a year or something ago you gotta call lisa yeah so i'm like well she probably didn't get any money out of that the people didn't get anything because it's a public you know story yeah so i'm like did she did they get paid that i did not know but she agreed to go do it the documentarian said that it was hard to get kendra the mom to agree but she wanted to answer it in her own words so the way that the film works the documentary is they get stuff out of her where they can place it so that the watcher doesn't know that she's guilty then when she spills the beans of doing it she says well it started out that there was a real text that wasn't from me around halloween are you going to the halloween party and then they stopped and then i wanted to know who it was so then i created this person to then see if we could figure out who it was there's no proof that it wasn't her from the beginning.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

All right so keep going and then.

[Heather McDonald]

They'Re like why the initial calls the initial texts were not this super sexual and she gets to the point drew where she says why don't you just off yourself already bang hashtag bang if you're not gonna kill yourself we will hashtag bang it's september the season of fresh starts cooling temps and getting back into routines and as we shift into fall it's all about resetting my hair and skincare game with irestore elite plus illumina face mask bundle irisore elite is the most advanced laser hair growth system with five hundred lasers and leds to help regrow thicker healthier hair in as little as three months plus wear it while you're working or listening to juicy scoop it's super easy it's no effort and it's just results now i also am using the illumina face mask you guys it's so easy every night i just wash my face i put it on i like the red led lights because that is for collagen growth but there's also a blue one for acne and you put it on whatever you need maybe you need both maybe you want to switch off each night and i just watch a little real housewives and it's on my face i can see through it i just relax for ten minutes and i'm telling you i've noticed a difference in the last couple weeks it is so great for building that collagen and everything else don't just bounce back glow back with powerful clinical level tech for your hair and skin for a limited time get a huge discount on the air restore elite plus the illumina face mask bundle with the code juicyscoop at irestore dot com that's code juicyscoop at irestore dot com for our exclusive offer don't forget to check out their other dia and please support juicy scoop and tell them we sent you i definitely noticed in the last few years i have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep but a big thing that's really helped me is bowl and branch sheets because it makes me feel so relaxed they actually get softer with each wash they're so incredible and they are free from toxins with the finest one hundred percent organic cotton they are buttery soft i mean really buttery soft from start and as i said they get softer with every wash how wonderful is that they come with a thirty night worry free guarantee and they are ethically crafted by expert artisans that earn fair wages i could tell that this was top quality right off the bat like my sister spent the night the other night she's like what are these sheets like she got into my bed we were watching a show and i'm like these are bowl and branch like these are the softest and i'm telling you they are the softest and they have a cooling agent about them where i don't get hot and at this age sometimes you have those hot flashes i really love them for that they're absolutely incredible so feel the difference an extraordinary night's sleep can make with bolan branch get fifteen percent off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at bolendbranch dot com juicyscoop that's bull and branch b o l l a n d branch dot com juicy scoop to save fifteen percent and unlock free shipping exclusions apply and they ask her the the documentarian ask her were you ever afraid that maybe your daughter would go through with what you were telling her to do as a cyber bully and she goes is her face uh no i mean i know my daughter really well and i was not concerned that she'd actually do that and i mean it was like fifty texts a day not like once a week oh this bitch is back like fifty texts a day because she wasn't working so this was all her life and she had a tech background and so i just need let's just start talk about.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

All right let's first talk about the daughter so let's talk about the daughter first because you mentioned that she seemed to sort of closed off when they came in and of course the daughter is thoroughly indoctrinated in this crazy mom's world right that's the thing about these sort of munchausen by proxy like situations there's no boundary between the mom and the child and the child is essentially in a cult of two and that cult has completely manipulated her and this is her sense of love her sense of closeness she she is brought up to idolize the mom mom needs all that the child is responsible for the for the mom's well being and feeling states so the daughter's reaction is perfectly understandable which is shock shutdown no spontaneous feelings because she's not been allowed to really have any for quite some time now as time goes on hopefully she got some treatment and she can start to individuate from that moment again the whole thing is to prevent the child from individuating that's the that's the deal in these kinds of situations and so hopefully she's gotten enough sort of distance that she can look back and so ultimately you're going to not going to like this but it's for a child to kind of get through something like this they have to be able to look back and find forgiveness and understand mom is sick and she's still my mother and have bring together all these conflicted feelings that takes a long time hopefully this child can get there now the moment it's interesting let me just start from the beginning and say look we don't know her we're speculating for sure also it is very difficult to make sense of you know using your healthy brain to make sense of a sick brain's behavior it doesn't follow logically necessarily so to try to sort of apply logic to her behavior doesn't really work and then finally she's a criminal right she's a criminal and she may be she may have a lot more criminality than we know but let's just state up front that even if there's an underlying psychopathology by the point by the point that the behavior reaches a level of criminality that's on the legal system now and full force of god should be brought to bear because people can be very dangerous in spite of there being an underlying understanding of the psychopathology underneath i mean you know drug addicts kill people because they want their drugs i mean things can happen people drive drunk there's an interesting flavor in this which i was thinking before you mentioned the alcohol there's an addictive flavor in all of this and sometimes alcoholics or drug addicts will get into these sort of i don't know how to describe it it often it often involves process addiction porn addiction you know where they they sort of in their alcoholism start to get the dopamine hits from what they getting off the internet now i'm just sort of framing that to say that that is a thing that i've seen mostly with porn addiction and that kind of thing but but it it does occur in the setting of other addictions then to try to understand all this i think you nailed it in your tiktok post i think you were onto it early and often i think you actually got it right and you know you were saying and i was curious when you came to that conclusion was it before the documentary the.

[Heather McDonald]

Conclusion that she's one of those female teachers stuck in high school and possibly on her way to being a pedophile and in love with owen well that's.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

That'S that's not the part i was talking about that's a possibility it is in there i was talking about the sort of internet munchausen by proxy kind.

[Heather McDonald]

Of oh yes well i didn't come up with that that was one of the things that the detective said which i thought was so interesting being that social media and texting and and all of that is such a huge part of everyone's life not just teenagers whatever and so many people that's their only outlet that's what they live for they can't wait to get back on those pages where they can be anonymous and and you know torture people with their mean words and whatever it is and i do think that she got sucked into that and instead of being on a nasty housewife snark page talking about i hate this woman and you know her husband hates her too or something it was my own daughter yeah and the things that she said in going after her daughter's appearance to i mean the little bit excuses that she said in the document was i never said i was a perfect person i know that's crazy and you know every people do wrong things which kind of reminds me of when i interviewed what's her name pippin pat papini stephanie wait what's her name i can't remember her name papini the the fake kidnap victim oh.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah right the hell is her first name i can't remember but i but.

[Heather McDonald]

I doini when she did her doc and now i'm coming forward and yes i lied about some things but some things i was a victim of it was the same type of thing in that i had a horrible childhood i had childhood trauma i was abused sexually abused sherry papini says and therefore you know when this when i found myself in this situation which i was a victim i chose to lie and keep this lie going on and on and on and it's same thing she said i had childhood trauma though she never says what it was in the doc and so i was almost like traumatizing myself through my daughter by like and i should write you know owen's never gonna owen doesn't like you with your anorexic and flat ass well you know my i've been very very abused about my flat ass flat ass is a triggering place to be especially with a.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Family member going after you in a.

[Heather McDonald]

Post in a post two hundred and ten world of kim kardashian a flat ass is it's a real mean thing to say no one ever says oh you're flat chested it's fine to be flat chested little titties are in flat ass not the way to be and so so she says that and she goes well i was i was not eating enough at that time so i was actually like abusing myself it sounds like she i don't know if she got any kind of therapy in prison or she sort of thought of that whole projecting defense i was just projecting on myself but you're telling your fourteen year old daughter mean things that honestly sometimes with these cruel people that are cyber bullies to anybody whether they know you or not your daughter they sometimes bring up mean things about someone's appearance that the the person themselves wasn't even aware of oh sure like so you're and then now all of a sudden you're like oh i do have a weird tooth on that side of my mouth like i never knew that well.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Especially as a young adolescent female oh yeah oh my god but but so let's state this you know posit these things there's no therefore there's no i was traumatized therefore right no no therefore but i was traumatized and people who are traumatized reenact that trauma is a way of kind of understanding what this was but it's not because not therefore because that sounds like a justification right there's no justification for the behavior the behavior is sick now sick behavior understand people get sick and things happen but when it starts harming other people now we have to again you have to bring consequences down and this person has to ultimately make amends and you know this takes a long long time to work through somebody in this kind of condition if ever possible and so what what we see with this kind of thing oftentimes is like she mentioned the trauma and the trauma is also associated with personality disorders right and borderline personality is very much associated with this kind of thing where they have sort of split off parts of themselves it can actually go all the way to dissociative identity disorder and people argue about whether that but did has been implicated in situations like this and this woman sort of her absolute lack of any connection to the behavior the part of herself that was engaged in this behavior immediately made me think about did so there's at least a dissociated feature in what she's doing like this is a part of herself way off in the distance somewhere that is acting out in ways that are just reprehensible reprehensible and unless she can call it that that it is disgusting reprehensible behavior she's she's not okay she is not okay i think.

[Heather McDonald]

It'S like threefold here with this woman i think she is a a certain type of teacher that you know chose to be a teacher because she likes to be the smartest one in the room and what probably wasn't very popular in high school and now she is popular and gets to see it and i think with certain teachers that's seems to be the issue when they then become a pedophile and have sex with boys that are not eighteen and their students whether they're eighteen or not still.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Obviously not it's underdeveloped part of themselves that's highly traumatized and off in the distance that engages in these behaviors it brings that brings the behaviors forth and so and i remember what was her name mary kay kopechnik the one that oh mary kay letourneau letourneau letourneau and she she when you heard some of her phone calls she sounded like a different person when she was talking to that thirteen year old like some one call was like a little baby almost and one was like a domineering you know all business sort of executive and it was just like these are different people that this woman is manifesting here it's just so so so sick now you know it's interesting to me also that you've had such a visceral response to this yourself and so many of the juicy scoopers because one thing i learned through working with teen mom nothing moms like more than coming down on other moms or engaged in not good behavior there's because men don't men go ugh ugh oh my god but women they you really it's a it's a it triggers some very primitive instincts in everybody you got that feeling i i.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes and i think it's because it is a mother and it's who has a teenage daughter so the teenage daughter in us yes is horrified that a mother would do that and then there and then as a mother yes we are judgy of other mothers because you know i feel god made it us women that could procreate and carry babies because he knows that we would care more about the life than men and so i feel like as women we are overprotective and we are more angry when we see another mother abuse their power and whether it's physical child abuse sexual abuse anything and this was just another unique crazy thing to do i mean you know there'd be porns and fantasies about you know stacy's mom or whatever about a guy screwing there was a scene in the movie was it valley girl or something else where you know the boy another boy has sex with his with this girl's mom or.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

There'S that hunting wives what's that the.

[Heather McDonald]

Hunting wife they barely touched on the fact oh my god the woman was sleeping with her friend's son who was a senior in high school as well as you know two other women in.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

The neighborhood that was a story of sex addiction full on and didn't and just glossed over it like a cartoon i mean that that's what bothered me i couldn't watch it because it's like this these are serious problems here and they're not really talking about what's what's.

[Heather McDonald]

Going on i mean the thing that's always really bothered me about that whole thing of like you know oh you know a guy got to sleep with his teacher and everything obviously you know this but even early early on before i even had kids and with the mary kay letourneau and also you know just like when a man does it to a young girl it fucks you up for life it's such a power imbalance that even though you're the guy essentially as a teenager penetrating this woman it's like how are you ever going to now have a normal relationship with a woman or a girlfriend or whatever and there was a great show a couple years ago that came out that was a scripted it was a scripted movie kind of based on all these types of stories but a fictional one of kind of what happens to the woman and the teenage boy after it's over with and he attempts to go to college and join a frat and he starts drinking and he gets fucked up and she goes on and gets divorced and marries someone else and has two more kids or whatever and it just was so interesting because i just think people don't think about it and i definitely think she was like living vicariously like through her daughter's world and then had weird jealousy over that's why i'm saying it's like a number of things it's one well it's under development.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

So primitive so underdeveloped this part of.

[Heather McDonald]

Herself yeah but i do i think it's like one that she was this weirdo that still wanted to be queen bee in high school and she probably didn't wasn't popular to begin with and the power of being a teacher then it was weirdly being obsessed with this teenage boy and almost imagining probably she was probably masturbating to it i don't know because the stuff was so graphic that she said like very pornographic she's.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Texting right she's drunk at home doing this stuff it all kind of goes.

[Heather McDonald]

Maybe she was drunk but i would think if she was drunk she would have said that as an excuse i don't know maybe they were repackaging the alcohol i don't know what they were doing maybe she's still drinking very strange.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Maybe she's still drinking not willing to.

[Heather McDonald]

Look at that yet and then i think the other part is the munchausen by proxy via cyberbullying is the same thing of when you make your child sick and they're so dependent on you giving them the medicine and everything and then also the attention the sympathy you get from the neighborhood oh that woman's a saint i think the same thing in that she would come home and be like i can't believe they're writing me this and everything and she'd go ignore it i am here doing this you know and also i'm like i think it it was maybe also i just thought of this now how is she supposed to do well in school maybe this was a way for her not to go to high school not to ever leave her i mean not to go to college like not to go to the next level and get into college stay home with her with her weird mother forever this episode of juicy scoop is brought to you by booking dot com booking yeah from vacation rentals to hotels across the us booking dot com has the ideal stay for anyone even those who might seem impossible to please listen whether you're doing a fiftieth birthday party a bachelorette party whatever it is you're taking your family you've got your in laws we all know that you want specific needs met and booking dot com has it for you so if you need a kitchenette if you want an easy walk around area if you want it so that people can do their own thing and come together in a common space i love all the choices that they have from vacation rentals to hotels across the us booking dot com has the ideal stay for anyone anyone even those who might seem impossible to please whether you're booking for yourself your partner your picky teens or your sleep light rise early mom you can find exactly what you're booking for on booking dot com if our family can find their perfect stay on booking dot com anyone can find exactly what you're booking for booking dot com booking yeah book today on the site or in the app all right let's.

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[Heather McDonald]

Prime with summer in full swing i feel that urge to just refresh my closet but i'm not going to waste money on pieces that i only wear once just for one season that's where quince comes in the quality is way beyond what you'd expect for the price it's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that just clicks one hundred percent european linen top starting at dollar thirty washable silk dresses and skirts and soft cotton sweaters i mean so versatile warm weather pieces that you can reach for again and mix and match i absolutely love it i just got the cutest white linen blazer that just goes with everything goes with jeans it goes with white shorts and just kind of adds and it's going to take me through fall when it gets starts to get a little cooler as well give your summer closet an upgrade with quince go to quince dot com gc for free shipping on your order and three hundred sixty five day returns that's q dash u dash i dash n dash c dash e dot com juicy to get free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns quince dot com juicy yeah and it's like i always wonder when there's these elaborate lies you know the long con the long grift of a lie when does the person think okay just one more month or how will i come clean or i'll stop doing it or what is that like how does.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

How do you even sleep it's like every other addiction it progresses it's progressive and they get the dopamine hits off this stuff they're getting the addictive sort of massage and they don't anticipate the progression that's the part usually catches them off guard that gets worse and worse and worse and that's how they get themselves into trouble then the lies accumulate but i want to drill a little bit on what you're saying about the young males because people will go oh my god if only i had that at sixteen look at the outcome of those sixteen and seventeen year old males as heather alluded to their outcomes are horrible in terms of sociopathy in terms of addictions in terms of being able to function in society outcomes bad now i don't know if that's the necessarily direct result of the sexual abuse or these teachers select kids that are at risk or both probably sort of both but the reality is that that kind of stimulation at that age shatters the upper limits of the brain's ability to regulate the brain is not a whole regulatory system yet and this shatters it as heather was suggesting like how do you go from here where do you go it's something that gets etched into their system and if they have addiction in the background then that kind of usually takes over at a certain point remember my buddy mike cathwood i had to point out to him that because he had bad addiction and he was sexually abused by an eighteen year old when he was thirteen i had to go he always thought it was a cool thing and i said you got to look at that because that was not a cool thing it had a real impact on you it turns out lo and behold it really did the other thing is what you were talking about god's plan whether it's god or evolution the way female systems work human women's female systems is we we evolved as hunter gatherer groups and the men would go out to hunt women would stay in a group and in that group they would do the childcare and they would gather the food they would do the cultural transmission everything cultural language everything about culture and about also about cultural norms and if a female in that group jumped outside of the cultural norm in some way that was threatening to the well being of a child or the threat to the group that woman would be ostracized and ostracism back when we were hunter gatherer groups meant death you and your child potentially could be ostracized out into the brush the bush and the group's not going to support you or protect you anymore or get you food and so ostracism or you know what ends up being sort of judgment or you know is a very powerful and gossip too is part of that these are very powerful instruments that maintain cultural norms that are potentially healthy.

[Heather McDonald]

God and it really does all go back to real housewives i mean you could have just described real housewives of caveman era or something it's why.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

There aren't men groups of this there aren't there isn't a man's whatever group of housewives or whatever it is there is no equivalent in the male because.

[Heather McDonald]

I think if like if all of a sudden guys just kind of like either they get out of get over it and the friendship lasts or they're like that guy kind of bugs and then they don't ever call them again they're not like what's what that what's he doing now did he have a golf party without me why would he i mean you know what i mean it's just completely different it's just like yeah whatever and we look at that.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

As a total waste of time like it's confusing to us like if you hit if you get the guy go talk to him fight with him whatever get through this and fine have the fight establish your boundaries decide what we're going to do we're going to be friends or not and off we go that's it that's it and this all this goes back to another phenomenon in evolution called rough and tumble play that all mammalian xy entities manifest somewhere in late childhood and certainly during adolescent xy's males mammals start beating the shit out of each other and it's a way of expressing and then regulating aggression it's a way of coming to understand what the limits of aggression are in relating to men and we come to understand that we're always in harm's way there's always a potential of violence and we know how to kind of regulate it.

[Heather McDonald]

With our peers yes and i so i think that's so interesting but also like with this woman like the fact that she would just see her daughter and then in fact she did succeed they did break up and the daughter.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You know was struggling but again that's the other part of this cult of two she she's once control she wants she wants fusion and control and to sort of be a part of is the way you're building this case and i think that's probably true and then she wants to be seen as the martyr right i it's i'm the i'm the one that's going to save this child the school isn't doing enough you know it's interesting i was thinking i was as i was reading about this case that i've seen this exact same thing with men who marry young women and very old men the young woman becomes the savior no one's able to take care of him the way i can no doctor is good enough and i've been through some cases like that where you just go oh boy this is sort of that same phenomenon that.

[Heather McDonald]

Is interesting because i've noticed that too with people that are it's a big age difference and they're like the second third or whatever fourth wife and as a first wife it's like it's so interesting how much they cater to that husband so like if you're around a bunch of women that have been married twenty years or whatever and then there's that one that's like well it's four thirty and brian is coming home so he likes it when i'm there and i'm just like what like why would you be rushing home like there's so i've seen it happen so many times where you know or even i'll see it like in housewives with certain wives that are like really oh i'm just so we're just so in love and i wonder sometimes i wonder if they're overcompensating because they are a public figure and they don't want people to think it's a gold digger may december romance that it's real and we're just attached at the hip and we're just so in sync and you know that type of thing but it's interesting about caring cause that's also happened with casey kasem oh interesting with his wife donna dixon and i a couple years ago interviewed his daughters and it was really a case of where they couldn't see their dad they didn't feel like he was being cared for it was such like a you know parental child alienation but from a stepmother's point of view versus a parent and yeah it was it.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It'S well in my experience with it there's often a lot of money at issue the grandstanding and the caretaking sort of drama is to impress the family look nobody cares about your father the way i do and then inevitably the family goes what's up with this woman and they start to come in and that's when the alienation occurs so that's when they go all in to keep the kids out and usually these children usually have a substantial stake in this always a man i've never seen it well there was do you remember there was a woman remember her name last name was ray i think a famous comedic actress who had this gigolo when she was like ninety years old and oh yeah what was her name something.

[Heather McDonald]

Ray i know you mean though yeah and it was like a young guy that looked not straight was her boyfriend or whatever right yeah i mean i think there's you know gigolo grifters on all both sexualities or whatever both genders in in your work has anyone ever really recovered and said this is why i started doing munchausen's and i really and i did know that my child wasn't sick and i proceeded to do it because just like this girl this woman she got sympathy within the neighborhood she always had something to talk about she had an alliance with owen's mother and that's why owen's mother was so shocked because she was like we would like commiserate about this and we'd try to figure it out and they weren't the only victims in trying to figure it out there was a girl named chloe that they thought did it because she liked him too and was on the basketball team also his cousin who was kind of like a nerdy girl and she's like i didn't even have any friends and i was being accused of doing this to my own cousin writing disgusting sexual stuff and so there were all these other victims but getting back to my initial question like have you ever heard that someone actually admits it and walks you through it of like why they did it the answer.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Is yes i have but it is not routine and when i see it get better it's when people are faced with serious loss like losing everything including their freedom but in this case this woman's already faced all that and now she's kind of on the other side of it so i don't know if it's a motivating factor for her the other and part of it when i see it is also part of addiction where addiction is threatening their life where their addiction is so bad their life itself is at issue here and they must change and then when they have to do the work of change when they're motivated to do it it's hard work they end up back where i was telling you a few minutes ago which was they're disgusted by their behavior there's no excuse for their behavior they they have to make amends which is not just apologizing to all these victims but making it right doing things to make it right for that person without harming them so they have to be fully fully aware of the depths of the depravity of the behavior and be as disgusted and as stricken as anybody else but it's hard for them to go there and depending on the how fragile her personality is she may not be able to do it and certainly if she were going to engage in some long term treatment process expensive and she may not have that either i.

[Heather McDonald]

Also think it's just so fascinating the reaction of mothers to this is because there's those shitty mothers of teenage girls weird dynamics where they're jealous where you'll hear about you know something like oh is that what you're going to wear honey oh it's wonderful that you're so brave to show your arms and the girl's like a little fatter or whatever and it's like it's stuff like that and then you're like oh god you know and then i think it's why you know there's always a challenge of you know or the mother tries to upstage the daughter or the daughter in law at the wedding you know and it's like wearing white or too big of a dress or it's it's i think it's just like that's really weird and then also i think in this day and age i mean i'm you know with the like anonymous hate that happens on the internet and but then there's a deeper level where someone who's you think is your friend and this has been found out whether it's in housewives world my own world other people's world and they really are the ones behind the bots and it's really it's what blake lively is actually accusing justin baldoni of and then he's coming back and saying no you did it which is to incite online hate for another person whether it's hiring bots or sending nasty articles or tips to then get people to go oh this is the the horrible woman and this is the horrible housewife and then they find out like it was all made up or it was actually my friend or my frenemy and i'm like what if i found out like one of like my worst like consecutive haters for years was like one of my kids how weird would that be like you'd be like what what i don't even know how to go on like how do you even explain this like i definitely think frenemies do this yeah you might have thought they were a friend and they were actually a frenemy or an enemy and they actually are on these pages anonymously or sometimes even as themselves and you know and i just am like the fact that she would do this and to such an excessive amount i'm not saying once in three weeks they hop on the hate page out of curiosity i'm saying like this woman did it over and over and over again for two years to like a vulnerable girl and just watching her come home and then crying and again the dad and nobody has said does she really need a phone like not to punish her but like at a certain point does everyone really need a phone no.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

No that's that's again you got great parenting instincts and so that's of course numero uno that is the number one cause of distress in adolescence is the screen the phone and i have friends that work just with adolescent females say and their kids they only allow them an hour to two hours per day period and it's carefully structured that's it period and the kids fight like hell but when you see the consequences so much it's like somebody who's working in that field it's easier to set that limit and those kids always end up thanking their parent for having done so.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah i just saw a thing where this kid was saying that they're not allowing phones at the high school whatever.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

High school that's essential the fact that we do we allow phones at high school is just the most insane thing.

[Heather McDonald]

In the world in two thousand and like well my daughter was at her high school which is all girl from she graduated in twenty seventeen so she was there for those four years they did not allow them to have the phone i don't know if they do now they did not allow them to have the phone you'd have to put it in your locker you could check it like if there was a message i think you could check it i'm not even sure but you couldn't have it on your person not even on your person not just turned off good but then like i think at my son's school later on they kind of said no they use it for school and da da da and that's what these people were saying like they use.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It for school i mean with ai now it's going to be even worse but but there's got to be a way to structure that like okay pull out your phone now just the way we used to pull out a calculator yeah pull it out now now you can use it you know that's it that's all you got to do it's it's look you got to treat it like a dangerous you know like tobacco or anything else we will look at this like tobacco one day well it's.

[Heather McDonald]

A simple thing like you know when people like will say oh you know what's a what's a tip to meet somebody you know oh go to a bar and talk to the bartender i go but the thing is is that if you're alone at the bar waiting for your friend to join you you aren't looking around and being like hello sir what's good to eat here no you're not going to get hit on because everyone is going to have the crux of looking at their phone and doing business or pretending to do business and so people just aren't like meeting and the same thing goes on at school like now you can easily just go eat by yourself remember when we were in school like there's nothing worse than like having your food and not being able to find your group oh.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

My god and then you were like.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh my god do i just have to go like do i have to go to my car and pretend i have something to do like there were and that's sad and terrible but at least there was an effort on the person's part to like engage in some type of connection no yeah listen i.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Saw a little video online of a sort of lunchtime in a seventies or eighties environment and it's all these little groups of kids all over the place you know talking socializing eating and that that when i think back on that it's like oh yeah it's completely normal but but there's a gigantic difference between adolescents and the relationship with the phone and adults in their relationship with phone right the adult thing the bar situation just described i've had friends kicked out of bars for interrupting a woman on the phone and asking you know would you like a drink or can i talk to you literally kicked out for being a toxic threatening and made her.

[Heather McDonald]

Uncomfortable male right and then that's yeah that's why they then don't approach anybody.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I know there where's all the men why don't they ever approach anymore they are so carefully ground down by this situation and if you're a young man and you haven't yet to develop the skill for this holy shit it's just over you can't do it's not going.

[Heather McDonald]

To happen yeah i was kind of thinking about that too because i was like i wonder if back in my day in like the sorority fraternity world and maybe they do that if you're at one of these big type of schools that are popular with it i would maybe the reason that so many guys were players is because they were kind of taught to be players in the sense of approach a girl get their number ask them out get them a drink like if you don't practice that skill like anything else then you're not you know you don't learn how.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

To do it you don't learn how to tolerate rejection you don't understand who you are in relationships you don't know how to form a date form a relationship break a date you don't know how to do any of that stuff and it's all scary and dangerous you're going to be accused of being a rapist of being a toxic male it's it's the men are just confused and they're just pulling away and they're going back with their porn and that's it and you know they're just not even trying because they've been told that it's dangerous and there's something wrong with them for wanting to try and you know it's funny weinstein harvey weinstein used that same defense he was like well that's just what we did in the seventies it's like yes yes there was an excessive actually an excessive push for men to do that kind of thing and it was sort of things were out of control in the seventies but but to have some sort of happy medium is where we want to get yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Going back to this why do you think she would agree to then go on camera and be part of this documentary first i thought maybe she was compensated but i don't know and until i find out they were they weren't like we all like they got whatever three hundred thousand to be part of it well but i don't think that they do well i'd be surprised if.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

She didn't get something because yeah but.

[Heather McDonald]

We'Ll see if someone knows please let me know if they did because i'm just kind of curious or do they do they think again an image of themselves where they don't think that they did something that bad and then therefore i can turn it around and tell my story like jussie smollett or sherry.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Papini or whatever correct i think and never underestimates people desire to be on tv it's unbelievable people will just they want to be on tv so badly it's they'll do crazy shit to get on tv so she if she gets paid wants to be on tv and thinks she can make her case if she really were you know experiencing what she had done it'd be a long time before she'd want to get out there and talk about it it'd be.

[Heather McDonald]

A long time actually i think you're right i think it's about wanting what she did was a way to bring attention onto her as the victim's mother and their family and everything in this small town so yeah i think when women are attention seeking again the attention of being the coach being in charge being at the center of the like the in front of a classroom being being able to tell people what to do like that is you know some people go and and try to be you know an actor or whatever and then other people with that same desire for attention go in other careers and if they're a bad person at the root which i believe she is then it's a gateway to fuck over a whole different group of people let's explore.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

That a little further because attention seeking the way women do it is a little confusing to me like as a male i have trouble quite getting my head around it men seek not that men don't seek attention it's just a different way they do it very very differently and i feel like you tell me if this is true and please juicy scoopers i'm prepared to be wrong on this so set me straight because i'm not a woman turns out that something about the male gaze is woven into that need for attention you know.

[Heather McDonald]

What i mean definitely i mean so.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

It'S explained to me what that is i don't i as a man i can't get my head around it and some women they lose control of that it becomes like they need it and i think this woman has some of that stuff going on in there too but could you tell me more well.

[Heather McDonald]

I think that something that clicked with me not that long ago is how much media romantic movies series tv which is what we grew up with not the internet just regular storytelling movies would infiltrate our thoughts and make us think that this was a reality and there were so many romantic comedies and whatnot.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

That'S about well but why didn't men get infected by that you know what.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean they're the ones writing it that's what i was gonna say i.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Found out later that gay men writing.

[Heather McDonald]

It like a lot but a lot of the what i like to call the dry bar comedies which are the ones from the two thousands that they play when you get your hair blown out at a dry bar okay a lot of them are straight men and they're just following a formula okay and where the girl that has the a type personality and is working in advertising she's gorgeous but she's wearing glasses so she's ugly and then she also is always tripping and falling cause they're lazy it's lazy comedy writing but this is what got greenlit until like we realized wow you know what was really fucking funny bridesmaids written by women like then now we're like okay but for so long we would see that and part of it was that the girl would walk in and she would be so quiet and shy and then the hot guy would notice her across the room and then oh he'll like me guys don't notice the quiet girl in the corner they don't you need to go right up and push your boobs against him and act like you're getting a drink and have eye contact with them and let them know that you like them it is not that but it's this weird fantasy that you're like oh you know if if i'm demure fact like this like kill well but listen.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

This is another feature that that christina p pointed out to me once and i had no idea this was a thing is that women have a motivational system around being chosen i want to be chosen we we don't want to be chosen we not unless it's on the football team and then we want to be chosen right up front because we're good but that's it but this choose me thing amongst other women that's a pretty much that's a weird interesting motivational system.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah i mean i do think i think it could be a little bit less now you know with the the newer generations of women but yeah it was always you know you know cinderella it's the cinderella it's like my generation was like you know you wanted to get married by thirty so that you could not have difficulty getting pregnant and this was kind of the routine then with the millennials it was like no you don't have to do it or you can wait now with gen z i feel like it's this weird thing where it's going back to trad wives and it's all you know and it's making sourdough bread from scratch and i'm like there was an expression that was it's the best thing since sliced bread for a reason we didn't want to make our bread from scratch who the fuck wants to waste all day right baking bread from scratch but you see it with this girl ballerina farms and and you know and like oh and this other woman oh i was craving a hamburger so i you know killed the cow and then you know pick the wheat and you know and they do this whole thing and they kind of know it's like obviously they're not really doing this all themselves and they're doing it all in a day and there's a you know production team around it but it's just i don't know it's like this weird thing that so often now these girls just like we were wanting to have that wedding in new york because we watched my best friend's wedding and all these you know brides always bridesmaids whatever those were twenty seven dresses all those things we kind of wanted it they now are seeing it and want this other thing of like i just want to have like babies and like live on a farm and have my husband just think i'm you know great and that's scary too yeah oh yeah there's women that are like yeah and what happens when you're you know you're forty and your kids are gone and you know your husband is cheating on you and nothing's in your name or you hate your husband and there there's no way for you to protect you know like that's that's there's a balance of like you know it's interesting because they're like oh my god who sold us the this fake goods of how great it is for women's rights like you know fifty years ago you didn't have to have a job and it was like kind of nice and now it's like if you don't have a job or it's just a it's just it's just yeah it is such a weird thing and it's just very much we're two different completely different and is it going.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Yeah no for sure but is it going to be that women are going to have to sort of pick their poison like you're going to be a career person or that's going to be your focus or you're going to be a mom it's going to be focus or or is there a realistic balance that most women can achieve no no.

[Heather McDonald]

I don't know i don't know i mean you cannot have it all you can have at most but you cannot have it all and you will have regrets you will have regrets i shared.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

The podium once with a woman who wrote a book she went out to write a book about the most successful women in america and she wanted to know what these women had in common with one another so as diane sawyer and oprah and all these women she interviewed like twenty of them or thirty of them and she said you know i can only find one thing in common of the women i interviewed these were like you know really successful captains of industry and things and she said they were all childless and they were all pissed because they were told do that whenever you want you can do that part later don't worry about it of course window closes and so i don't know i almost feel like i hope that fertility technology helps women with that because you can freeze your eggs you can freeze your embryos you can do these things and you can then wait later than we used to be able to it's some risk but i.

[Heather McDonald]

Think freezing your eggs is the greatest thing you can do for insurance for life insurance just for yourself yeah and i would also say to be careful about just having the eggs and maybe not and not doing the frozen embryos because if even if it's like you might not want to be with that person later on you have the sofia vergara situation so it's like the embryos.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I have a whole bunch of ethical issues associated with them moral issues and you you can avoid that by getting your eggs early by the way the healthy eggs is a certain there's an.

[Heather McDonald]

Optimal window for that i will say because people are going to be mad what you said that woman did a study that said childless and piss they're going to say i love being childless and all that and i believe that i believe it and i do not judge i believe one of the things i think jerry seinfeld said was like i think the greatest thing that god did was like if you choose not to have kids you don't know what you're missing because you won't know it you won't know it yeah and so on the other hand you won't know the stress the worry the fact that the job never ends you can never retire it's just when you think things are going well it's not wait till.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

You have grandkids it always starts all.

[Heather McDonald]

Over again you're always you're always going to worry about are they happy with their spouse are they happy with their job are they happy da da da da da because if you're you know again getting back to why people were so infuriated about this awful woman is because we do care so much about our children's mental health and their happiness our biggest fear for anybody in in this day and age is that their child would end their life yes and you know so for the fact that she was saying it over and over to her again what do you think and then we'll wrap it up like.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Wait before you ask me that question let me just comment something you said about the childless women i think women today who choose not to have children and pursue active careers are probably not pissed because i think they understand what they're doing my point was in that previous generation really essentially boomers they didn't get it and they were pissed that they were sold a bill of goods that they couldn't got it that's what they were pissed about but listen i welcome all types of i welcome it all everybody i'm a moderate in all things and i and i and i love the human experience and i love that we have different ways of leaving our lives but thriving is our is our objective you know aristotle said that thousands of years ago human thriving flourishing that's what we should look for and you got to decide what that means.

[Heather McDonald]

For you right and i think it's interesting because it's like wait so let me go okay let me just go because we got i know you have to leave okay so i'm in no.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Hurry by the way i'm pretty good.

[Heather McDonald]

I thought you said you okay well i thought you done it one okay so anyway not necessarily i love that you just love me so much okay so what do you think for this girl lauren because one i did this impression of the of the woman because she just made me so mad and that's what i do and she is an awful person and she chose to go on this dock so i have no sympathy but one comment and of course i only like to focus on the negative comments one comment was take this down immediately that poor girl lauren has suffered enough how dare you make fun of this and i'm like first of all i didn't make fun of lauren the daughter i was making fun of this i don't want to make it fun i was doing an impression yes and of this annoying woman who's awful and i do kind of worry about this girl and there is something very primal i know about a child wanting to be with her mother forgiving their mother yes and all of that but i mean can do imagine if she gets a husband and she's like can't my mom come over and babysit i mean when would you ever let your guard down and think she's okay never that's what i say never never.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I i she's got done enough damage that even if she's into a glorious recovery and it's years down the road i'd still have supervision she's still a sick person and she still could have slips that's all learn from all this that's all we can all do better i'm sure i can do better that's for sure and make sure this is all on patreon heather that's all i'm.

[Heather McDonald]

Saying yeah we might have to put some of this on patreon but no this was really fascinating i'm so glad that you kind of weighed in on the you know the mental psychology of someone that does something like this yeah and i wonder if we're going to discover more or if this would be any kind of a wake up call to the people that were sitting at home that do hide behind a keyboard and torment someone they may know or is in their group or whatever and maybe they'll realize like shit i could be found out and how humiliating if i was and i should stop i mean i do think it's an illness i do think it's an addiction yes i mean even for me in sometimes where i'd want to see like the negative stuff and i really treated it almost like i'm giving that up like i'm giving up alcohol or chocolate or whatever and and if you don't see really does change you will have happier days if you can protect yourself from seeing it or blocking people or whatever it is so freeing and you will have a pep in your step that you didn't before no matter how much you tell yourself like oh it doesn't bother me and i have a tough skin when you read you know you anorexic flat ass like this poor girl did over and over again you're a piece of shit everyone wishes you would die things like that it just you feel like the whole world hates you you don't realize what a small percentage is it is and who are these people anyway you don't know that's right.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

I i agree wholeheartedly with you it depletes your soul by engaging in this behavior it's not good for us it certainly doesn't add to our flourishing and is certainly hurting other people but i think a way to think about it is conduct your life in such a way as though there's a video camera running at all times and you could look at that video and feel good about what you saw and the reality is we live in the kind of world where that's essentially what's happening exactly.

[Heather McDonald]

See where we are every story you go into every i remember there was that episode of black mirror just a few years ago with a i think it was bryce dallas is that her name the one that's ron howard's daughter and it was you know future but not too far in the future where everywhere she went she got like a personality rating not like just like a fico score but instead for your personality so you know along with leaving a tip they would then the barista would rate you on how delightful you were and somehow some bad things happened and some gossip started and her number went down and then her friend was like you can't be in my wedding and you can't and now you've lost this apartment and you know because you are not the and so it was very very true well thank you so much doctor drew and you have always so much going on and so much so many shows so in case people don't know where you've been since loveline where.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

Can they listen the thing to watch now is you know sign up my website doctor dot com comma follow me on xr drdrew susan my wife produces a streaming show on tuesday wednesday and thursday at two o' clock that really is sort of the focus right now of what i'm doing we're interviewing very very interesting people and show up there well you can get it on if you can follow on x we put a blast out at two o' clock before as the show is released it's.

[Heather McDonald]

Live it's fun awesome all right thank you so much appreciate you thank you.

[Dr. Drew Pinsky]

The juicy scoopers i really and and i i welcome your feedback not your abuse but your feedback and i'll try to adjust my point of view based on i i will learn something from your community because they are really a very rich interesting smart group of people that that follow you i i i like i said i i meet them all over the place and it's it's it's you've got a quite a community there so please i love your thing your feedback but i'm i'm here to change i'm here to take it so.

[Heather McDonald]

Awesome thank you yeah you got it.

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