Holly Madison on Playboy Murders and Dating Much Older Men

Summary

Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald: Episode Summary

Title: Holly Madison on Playboy Murders and Dating Much Older Men
Release Date: April 10, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of Juicy Scoop, Heather McDonald welcomes returning guest Holly Madison, known for her bestselling books and her popular podcast co-hosted with Bridget Marquardt. The discussion delves into Holly's personal experiences, her latest podcast series Playboy Murders Season 3, and broader topics surrounding relationships, fame, and the Playboy legacy.

Holly Madison’s Personal Life and Dating Older Men

Holly opens up about her recent single status and her experiences dating significantly older men. She shares insights into the challenges and dynamics of such relationships, especially when balancing her roles as a mother and a professional.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([04:44]): “I do not have time. Like I'm co-parenting two young kids. I have three jobs. I don't have a minute to carve out unless you're the one.”

Impact of Social Media and Dating Apps on Relationships

The conversation shifts to how modern technology, particularly social media and dating apps, has transformed the landscape of relationships and infidelity. Holly and Heather discuss the increased difficulty in maintaining secrecy in relationships due to the pervasive nature of online platforms.

Notable Quote:
Heather McDonald ([06:20]): “Now I think it's the opposite. I think it's way harder to cheat than, like, 20, 30 years ago...”

Playboy Murders Season 3: Overview and Discussed Cases

Holly provides an overview of Season 3 of her podcast, which focuses on murders connected to the Playboy world. Several high-profile cases are discussed in detail, highlighting the intersection of fame, wealth, and violence.

Case of Kim Fatarini

Kim Fatarini, a Playboy model, was found dead of an overdose in 2017. While initially deemed accidental, evidence of alcohol, cocaine, and GHB suggested foul play. Holly explains the ongoing civil trial against Sean Merriman and Eli Webe for negligence in her death.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([29:41]): “She was sending texts right before she passed saying, 'come help me, somebody put G in my drink.'”

Case of Carissa

Carissa, a Playboy Playmate in 2000, was involved with a man attempting to start a cult aimed at assassinating Mormon Church leaders. After breaking off the relationship, Carissa became a target, leading to multiple murders connected to her ex-boyfriend's nefarious activities.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([34:52]): “He had a fetish for eating out of a dog bowl... He was planning these murders so bizarre.”

Case of Lisa Cale

Lisa Cale, part of the 1980s Playboy "Girls of Texas" pictorial, was tragically murdered during a birthday party. Her boyfriend’s involvement with unsavory individuals led to her untimely death.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([41:11]): “He wanted to make a stop along the way and ended up killing her.”

Summer of Hell and the Bunny Hunt

A serial killer spree in Tampa Bay in 1983, dubbed the "Summer of Hell," targeted women associated with Playboy Clubs. The case highlighted flaws in forensic methods of the time, such as unreliable bite mark evidence, leading to wrongful convictions.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([57:01]): “They put an 18-year-old man in prison for 37 years, only to find out he was innocent.”

Hugh Hefner’s Relationships and the "Replaceable" Narrative

The discussion turns to Hugh Hefner’s relationships with his girlfriends, exploring the notion that the women were seen as replaceable assets within the Playboy empire. Holly reveals shocking details about life insurance policies taken out on the girlfriends without their knowledge, raising questions about exploitation and control.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([17:01]): “We were told anytime we were asking for raises or anything like that, it's just, you guys don't matter. You're replaceable.”

Evolution of Nightlife and Playboy Clubs

Holly and Heather reminisce about the golden era of Playboy Clubs and how nightlife has drastically changed over the decades. They discuss the decline of such establishments due to shifting social norms, the rise of digital interactions, and increased scrutiny.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([55:35]): “They were making really good money for women at the time...”

Women’s Roles and Autonomy: Then and Now

The conversation broadens to examine the autonomy women have today compared to the past. They discuss platforms like OnlyFans as modern avenues for women to leverage their sexuality independently, contrasting it with the controlled environments of Playboy Clubs.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([64:54]): “There's gonna be people who come out of it regretting it and saying, don't do it. And then there's gonna be people who don't and make all the money.”

Brief Discussion on Meghan Markle and Public Perception

Towards the end, Holly and Heather touch upon Meghan Markle's public persona and the intense scrutiny she faces. They draw parallels between high-profile relationships and the pressures of maintaining a positive public image amidst personal challenges.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([71:26]): “I think somebody made that one up...”

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Holly Madison promoting her upcoming season of Playboy Murders and sharing her experiences in Las Vegas, emphasizing the evolving landscape of entertainment and personal relationships.

Notable Quote:
Holly Madison ([73:45]): “Playboy Murders Season 3 comes out Cinco de Mayo, May 5th. And it'll be on Investigation Discovery.”

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a deep dive into the dark intersections of fame, manipulation, and violence within the Playboy universe. Holly Madison’s candid revelations provide listeners with a compelling narrative that blends personal anecdotes with broader societal observations.

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Note: This summary excludes advertising segments and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions between Heather McDonald and Holly Madison.

Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

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[Holly Madison]

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[Heather McDonald]

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[Unknown]

When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales For real life, Mr. Segment serial data and cereal sister.

[Heather McDonald]

You'll be addicted and addicted fast to.

[Unknown]

The number one tabloid real life podcast.

[Holly Madison]

Listen in.

[Heather McDonald]

Listen up.

[Unknown]

Woo woo. Hannah McDonald, juicy scoop.

[Heather McDonald]

Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have one of your favorites that I think this might be your fourth or fifth time on Juicy Scoop.

[Unknown]

I think it is the fourth total.

[Heather McDonald]

Holly Madison. You know her from her bestselling books. We're also gonna talk about her Juicy show third season of the Playboy Murders. You and Bridget, formerly both of Girls Next Door, have a great podcast that people love where you re watch the shows. Welcome back.

[Unknown]

Thank you so much. Always have so much fun here.

[Heather McDonald]

Thank you. As always. Couple things new in your life besides the third season and these juicy crimes is you're single again.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not really looking either. I'm like the next person is gonna be the one or nothing. Cause I do not have time. Like I'm co parenting two young kids. I have three jobs. I don't have a minute to carve out unless you're the one. So.

[Heather McDonald]

So I mean I don't want to get too deep into it, but was it a long time coming because you guys been together for like six months or was it six years? Sorry, six years. But. Or was it a reason that was undeniable?

[Unknown]

Well, it was very off and on for a long time. I don't want to say too much cause I have so many male enemies I feel already.

[Heather McDonald]

What do you mean male enemies that you really know are male enemies that are typing away.

[Unknown]

No, male enemies that, like, I've dated O. Oh, so I have a couple. But anyway, I mean, but people would know because it's like he was on dating apps behind my back constantly. But. And he probably won't be happy that I said that, but he was the one putting himself out there. Verified account linked to his Instagram. So, like, every girl in Vegas is hitting me up like, ho, isn't this your man?

[Heather McDonald]

They would be on like a Bumble or whatever.

[Unknown]

It wasn't even Raya. Okay, so Bumble and Tinder.

[Heather McDonald]

Because the way I know, the way I understand it is since I'm been married almost 25 years. And no, I've never been on the dating apps, but I am fascinated by it. When my friends are on it, I'm like, let me see what's knocking on your door. Okay. So you go through it. And the way I understand it is Raya is for not only, like entertainment people, but they really verify that you are who you are, you have the money that you say you have, and it's the most difficult to be accepted on. Right? Yeah.

[Unknown]

And it's private. Like, if you get caught screenshotting, you're kicked off, you know.

[Heather McDonald]

Now, couldn't you take a second phone and screen graph?

[Unknown]

People do that and then they get kicked off the app. But, you know, they.

[Heather McDonald]

But how would they know if someone. They can tell too?

[Unknown]

Well, I think if somebody's like, watching your social media or something like that. I've heard of people getting kicked off for things like that.

[Heather McDonald]

And then. But with like a Tinder and a.

[Unknown]

Bumble or whatever, anyone can see it.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. And so people saw his face. Was he using his real name too?

[Unknown]

Yes, it was verified and linked to his Instagram account.

[Heather McDonald]

So he used his real job, his real face.

[Unknown]

Yeah, all the things. Full bio.

[Heather McDonald]

And so when you. Did you confront him and what did he say I did?

[Unknown]

Well, guys always like to do that. It's not really me or that's an old account I'm not on. Okay, but you get enough screenshots and receipts from other people that it's just like, okay.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. So it wasn't that. It wasn't just like, oh, I was mad at you that night and I just put it up there and then I took it down.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And we were very off and on, so there was room for some of that. But then I, you know, you start catching it with, like, verified dates, screenshots, and things like that. So, you know, it was you know what I think?

[Heather McDonald]

I think it's like, originally, like, you know, years ago, a few years ago, I was like, oh, my God. You know, with all this technology, it makes it so easy to cheat. But now I think actually it's the opposite.

[Unknown]

I think so, too.

[Heather McDonald]

I think it's way harder to cheat than, like, 20, 30 years ago, where, like, people had entire other families.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

With all the Facebooking and groups and. Did you date this guy? And TikToks and everyone being on social media. And then if you meet a guy who's like, I don't have social media, then your antennas go up too. Cause you're like, why? What are you hiding? You know? Or like, when girls say, I'm dating a guy, and they never. And he's always just like, no, don't take my photo. And you're like, well, why?

[Unknown]

Also, have you seen the Facebook groups? Are we dating the same guy?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

The Vegas one is lit.

[Heather McDonald]

The Vegas one is.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Cause that's where you mostly live, right? Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So people just go on there, and if they're even thinking about going out with a guy, they're like, okay, does anybody have any red flags on Evan? And every girl in town knows Evan. It's like, with every guy, it's crazy.

[Heather McDonald]

I just remember this one guy who. He was like my age. So he was dating someone younger, like 27, whatever. And he's like, I don't know. You know? He's like, screw dating young girls. It's really hard. He's like, I had a girl that broke up with me because I didn't tag her in a photo. He's like, I don't even know what the fuck that means. So then she was like, you're not tagging me in the photo, you know, because you don't want the world to know. And he's like, I just. I posted the photo. I didn't tag her. Like, it's so weird.

[Unknown]

There's a whole new set of etiquette.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes. That. That has to be described. Talking. Speaking of which. Dating older people. Because you, of course, were Half. For how many years were you guys together?

[Unknown]

Seven years.

[Heather McDonald]

Seven years. And when you watched the show, you were clearly the most devoted he seemed to me, you know, put you at the top, like you were a more special thing, even though there was the girlfriend theme of the show. And as much as I watch, you know, watching it, it seemed that you were headed towards marriage or you thought it would lead to marriage. And so since then, you've dated other People, but nobody has been significantly older than you at all. Now he was 30 years older than you. 40. How much older was Hef?

[Unknown]

Like 50 something years older than me.

[Heather McDonald]

Right? So that is very much like Bill Belichick and his girlfriend. They're in the 50 year range. They're almost in the great grandpa, like not even just grandpa. Yeah, like great grandpa range. And you know, now he's a very powerful man too, and all of that. But she's only like 23 or 4, right? Which I saw a joke I talked about before where it's like, she can't even rent a car, you know, cause she's 25.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

They asked Tom Brady, they're like, this good comedian was like, would you rent a car for your former coach's girlfriend? And it took him like a second to go, oh my God, I have to do that.

[Unknown]

That's so funny.

[Heather McDonald]

Like, when you see that, like, what do you think? She also has dated much older men.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I'm kind of fascinated, like, and not in a judgmental way at all because obviously I dated a much older man who I was in love with and fascinated by. So I understand being attracted to the super successful guy that you can look up to, who's super interesting and iconic and whatever. But nobody else I've dated since has been significantly older. So I'm kind of fascinated because there are women out there who will. And again, no judgment, like, whatever. But I'm kind of fascinated, like the woman who had a baby with Al Pacino. Like, she has a really interesting roster, like Mick Jagger, Clint Eastwood, Eastwood, Al Pacino. I'm like, wow. And she was a girl who. I kind of like looked into her a little bit just cause I'm curious. And you know, she. I think she was brought up like upper middle class or wealthy, went to nyu, film student. I'm sure she's talking to these guys about, you know, career stuff. I don't know.

[Heather McDonald]

And I don't know.

[Unknown]

It was just fascinating.

[Heather McDonald]

I think there's. There's two types of women too. Like, and I do think that it's like, I remember this, this Jill Zarin, who's a friend of mine, her boyfriend Gary said this to me. He goes, he was talking about somebody who went from one billionaire guy to another billionaire guy, but kind of in the same pool of like a Palm Beachy golf, whatever world. And he said. And I go, oh, I would think that they would be going for the young hot thing, whatever. He's like. And not that this woman wasn't but she was not. Again, she was not significantly younger. She was someone else's former wife and then went to another and he's like, billionaires want another billionaire's fabulous wife 100%.

[Unknown]

They're what their friend would rather have.

[Heather McDonald]

Than just some, like, yacht girl. That's like, they know they can get that girl. They know they can manipulate the 25 year old when they're, you know, 55. But certain men would rather like, no, I want. Yeah, a really quality woman, but she's 48 and I'm 55 and like, you know, and she's already been married and divorced and is well liked and has her own shit going, which I think is kind of fascinating. And then there's the guy that seeks out the much younger woman. Hef never went past a girlfriend that. I mean, he never started the relationship with any girl that was like, what, over 30? Yeah, yeah. And then so it's like, that's what he was comfortable with, knowing that that was the age he needed to, I think, control. Impress. Yeah, you know, 100% that's to be impressed. And so my other question is, so then when the relationship ends and then you're like getting together for the first time with a body that's like a good body, like, tight skin, like, not an older man.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Is that like. And also just somebody not knowing, not having all the connections too, that the older guy had. Like, what was that transition like to now date guys that are just, you know, have their shit together but are normal guys?

[Unknown]

I don't know if I've ever dated a normal guy, honestly. I mean, my common denominator when I look at who I've dated is I tend to really be fascinated with, like, really successful people who are really creative and kind of create their own worlds.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Unknown]

That's kind of like what I'm drawn to. I feel so. I feel like the weirdest thing in dating. For me, transitioning out of the mansion is just dealing with other people's judgment because people will be excited to get together with you, knowing exactly who you are and what your history is. But then you get into a few months later in the relationship and they start developing deeper feelings and they start getting really jealous and they start overthinking my past or what my past would have been or what they imagine it is, and it just gets crazy.

[Heather McDonald]

And is that about the, like, the wealth and the connections that you had in your previous relationship that maybe they couldn't provide as a guy? Or is it something else?

[Unknown]

I think so. Or you know, just worrying about what other people might say because what they imagine about the relationship or something. Yeah, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And so, I mean, has anyone ever come to you and asked like, for advice, like, hey, I was with this much older guy for a long time. I want out. How do I, you know, now I'm going to not have all the amenities and cushions of having a guy that's like wealthy and established and knows how to do everything. Like, is there any advice you'd give to somebody that's like, maybe in a relationship where they're like, it's been such a, like a parental relationship that, you know, is a couplehood, but like, yeah.

[Unknown]

You just have to save as much money as you can and start thinking about, you know, what you want to do when you get out. Like, I was always very conscientious of that from the minute I entered that relationship. I was always in school for other things or setting aside as much money as I could. We didn't get paid much for different things. But I always knew that this could come to an end at any minute. Even when I was in the mindset of I never wanna leave or I feel like I can't leave, there was always the part of me that was saving money and going to school and doing things like that.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, that's very important. And like, one of the things I saw recently, a clip from your and Bridget's show is that she brought up the fact that she recently found out that have had life insurance policies on you, which you oftentimes see an ad like, oh, the Gerber baby life insurance policy where people could get a life insurance policy on their child, but to do it on another person that isn't their spouse. And then I saw in the comments that this insurance person said, yes, that can happen, but that you as the adult who's not, you know, would have to agree to it. Whether you're married or not, you'd have to agree to it. But I'm imagining when watching the show how you'd go into Mary's office or whatever and there's papers and this and that, and you're doing a show and here's a release and this is for the photo shoot and this is that if you signed it, who's to, you know, I'm sure it wasn't presented. And this is a life insurance policy. So if you die, Hef gets this money. Like, I don't think that was ever presented.

[Unknown]

Yeah, and I wouldn't put it past just. Cause sometimes when people are so influential, especially somebody who's such a character as Hef. He might be working with an insurance broker who just loves him so much that they'll just take his. His word for it, like, oh, it's fine. And, you know, I'm not saying signatures were forged, but I wouldn't be surprised either, because there's all kinds of weird things like that going on. We didn't even know about the life insurance until years after somebody called Bridget and was like, do you want to extend your policy? She's like, what are you talking about? And they said what year it was taken out and who took it out. So she called one of the secretaries at the mansion. They're like, oh, yeah. Hef had these life insurance policies taken out on you guys.

[Heather McDonald]

Just the three of you?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

You don't know about the girlfriends before or after?

[Unknown]

Not that I know of. I think it was because we were thought of as an asset from the show. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, that's even, like, gross.

[Unknown]

It's creepy, right? Yeah, I don't like it.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Cause it's like, oh, yeah. Yeah. If one of you died. Yeah. How much money would that be worth in lost revenue and production and.

[Unknown]

And especially weird, because we were always constantly told how replaceable we were. So it's like, okay, if we're so replaceable, why are we insured?

[Heather McDonald]

How would they tell you that you were replaceable?

[Unknown]

Well, the first time I remember hearing it directly was the executive producer of the show had a little luncheon with us outside by the pool at the mansion, just me, Bridget, and Kendra. And we weren't getting paid at all for the first season of the show at that time. And Kendra, like, got up the nerve to ask, like, well, shouldn't we be getting paid for this? And the mood at the table changed so fast. Like, you feel the energy drop on this guy, and he gets really serious, and he's like, what was his role? He was the executive producer of the show, and he was also really close with Hef. So they were in cahoots on everything. And you could just feel the energy drop from this guy. He got super pissed, stared her down, and said, you are replaceable. There are so many girls who would come in here and do this. Like, you get free rent here, you get this, you get that, you know? And we were just all kind of like, whoa. And eventually, we did end up getting paid, but, you know, we were always told anytime we were asking for raises or anything like that, it's just, you guys don't matter. You're replaceable. This show Isn't about you. It's about the mansion.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I was on a show, and we were told that, too. And we were not in romantic relationships with the boss, and we were just funny comedians who were told that as well. And sometimes it's like a throwaway. Sometimes it's whatever. And maybe they're frustrated and they're stressed out, but it's not a great way to ever treat your employee, whether you're on a TV show or not, because it just makes you feel, like, resentful.

[Unknown]

Exactly.

[Heather McDonald]

And I. Yeah, especially in Hollywood, like, oh, yeah, you're a dime a dozen. But maybe it does make someone then realize, oh, okay, I better shut up, because. But then I also better start, like, storing my nuts away for the winter.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But the fun part is we were replaced, and then the show flopped.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Unknown]

There you go.

[Heather McDonald]

I know. Whenever they try to do, like, a reboot of anything, whether it's, you know, Three's Company was never the same once, you know, Suzanne Somers left.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And she got booted because she asked for more money.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes, she asked. She asked for more money. And then. And she should, because she was, like, the star. And it was her husband, who was also in tv, that acted out as her manager. And then I remember the scene from the Made for TV movie. It was based on their books, and everything was. He came out and he was like. She's like, how did it go? And she was hoping to go back on the show. And he's like. He had already introduced her to this ThighMaster that he was like, I think you could sell this. And then he's like, get ready to sell a Thigh Master. And that was, like, the first QVC exercise thing that really made them, like, millions.

[Unknown]

That was brilliant. I mean, that was on TV all the time growing up.

[Heather McDonald]

And I will say about Suzanne Somers and her husband, she was so in love with him as he with her, and so much mutual respect. And many, many years ago, my mom was in real estate, and I was in real estate, too, before I met it. And she either sold her house or she was looking for their longtime assistant. They were buying a house for In. For the. Which I believe for the assistant to keep after. So that's the way you treat someone's been there for that long, and you're like, I want you to, you know, live close enough to work for whatever it is. So I'm just saying that's, you know, you hear about people being, like, nice like that. But yeah, that's so. It's so true. When. Whenever that happens with. It just isn't the same. And some things. That's why sometimes people. Speaking of which, I'm just gonna bring this up because we're talking about shows, so I don't know if you. Like, you know, Kelly Clarkson has a show. I don't watch that much, but I see the clips. Extremely popular. She's so likable. She sings on the show. She left for two weeks with no real reason of just. I have to just take two weeks off. It's not like someone in the family died or whatever, but she has two kids that are like 8 and 10. And she has to film it in New York and lives in the city with her kids. And so there's talk that she might wanna end the show in a year when her contract is up. And I think it's really interesting because it is so much time to do a daily show.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And her kids are at an age where she feels like. I remember her saying something on a show like, you know, I wish they would do these performances and stuff at night so that working moms could go. And then the response was like, yeah, but the teachers don't wanna come back at night.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And I'm like, well, that's true, too. Like, you can't please everybody. And, you know, I'm sure she doesn't need the money to do the show. And I don't feel she's like a fame person. And so then I was like, well, then, you know what? This is kind of a good move. Cause then they're gonna wanna keep her. And she'll be like, all right, let's just build a studio in Nashville or wherever, and we can have the show there. And then the argument is like, oh, but all the guest stars that come through, they interview guests, they're doing just their press. And that only happens in LA and New York. And I'm like, she doesn't need those. First of all, people would fly to go do her show in Nashville.

[Unknown]

More and more things are happening in Nashville. I feel like you could go to Nashville and do a whole press week these days.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And I'm like, so that's what I think she should do. I think she should put her foot down and be like, if you want me to do the show. And then she should do a contract where she has many more weeks with a guest host and, you know, so she doesn't have to be there. And, yeah, she should take this time to, like, be with the kids. Cause it goes by fast.

[Unknown]

It does go by fast.

[Heather McDonald]

My kids are grown, and I'm very happy of where they are. But, you know, I didn't have that freedom. Cause I wasn't the star of the show. But if I did, I would have definitely made it a more conducive thing.

[Unknown]

Yeah. She has a residency coming up in Vegas at Caesars.

[Heather McDonald]

I was just gonna say. Why does she just do that?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

What is it? Do you know what it is? Like, how long it is or.

[Unknown]

Well, when you're at Caesars, you rotate with other people. So it's not like she has to be there all the time. It would be like a chunk of dates. Like maybe two weekends a month here and a weekend a month there. That's usually how they schedule it out.

[Heather McDonald]

So she can sing any song and is great. And we talked about this on my last episode, and she sang that song, you know, I like my girls a little bit older. And then it was like every girl that was either lesbian or thinking about it is like dying for her. And so she changes the words. And it's just like she did another song where I saw where she was just, like, ripping on her ex husband. Like, she changed the words on the ex husband. Like, how dare you get half? And I think. Yeah, I think that's what she should do. I think she should. But sadly for the people that work on the show, it's so great to have a head show.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Heather McDonald]

But hopefully that's what I think is going to happen. This episode of Juicy Scoop is brought to you by booking.com booking. Yeah, guys, Summer's around the corner, and I know we're thinking family vacations. Let's take the kids somewhere. Maybe you've got a couple weddings you want to hit. All of that involves booking the perfect place. That's why I love booking.com booking. Yeah. Because every time I use booking.com to find a place to stay in the US I know they'll have exactly what I'm looking for. They have a huge variety of options, from hotels to vacation rentals. And I'm always able to find something that fits my specific needs. Like, I'm sure you will as well. I know this summer, Peter and Drake are doing a golf trip, and Brandon and McKenzie and I want to go meet them at the tail end of it. So when we go meet them, I've got Brannon and McKenzie. So we're going to need two rooms so that McKenzie and I will share. Brandon will have his own. We want to make sure that everybody can get up when they get up, get something to eat, go for a walk in a safe, cute neighborhood. And that's why I love booking. Com. No matter who you are, booking.com helps you find the stay that's ridiculously right for you. Find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com booking. Yeah, you guys know I've talked about Irestore, which is absolutely amazing for the regrowth of hair. But now I want to tell you that there's even better results with Irestore Elite. You pair it with the Revive and Max Growth Kit and the Revive Biotin Vitamin Gummies. The Revive and Max Growth Kit is like a full on hair care squad that works from root to tip. So it includes the Advanced Hair Growth Formula, Thickening Shampoo, Thickening Conditioner and Growth Activated Serum. Everything you need for healthier fuller hair. Trust me, your hair will thank you. And if you subscribe and save, you can save 25% or more plus free shipping on the Ultimate Hair Care Upgrade. I absolutely love their Thickening Shampoo and conditioner. It is making my hair feel fuller every day. And it's just, it's a great feeling when you're in the shower lathering up, knowing that your hair is going to have awesome results. Give yourself the gift of hair confidence this spring, for a limited time only, our Juicy Scoopers will get $625 off their iRestore Elite when you use the code juicy [e-mail], that's $625 off irestore [e-mail] with the promo code JuiceScoop. Please support our show and tell them we sent you Hair loss is frustrating. You don't have to fight it alone. Thanks to Irestore, some people get a haircut or book a spontaneous trip when life throws them a curveball. But Molly? She went a little further. After a life changing diagnosis, she dove headfirst into a world of no strings attached sex, secret rendezvous, forbidden affairs, sexcapades and unforgettable adventures. It wasn't just about pleasure. It was about feeling alive, embracing desire and rewriting her own story. And every wild, outrageous and heartfelt detail unfolds in Dying for Sex, Wondery's award winning podcast that's now a TV series starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate. But there's even more to the story. In brand new bonus episodes, host Nikki Boyer sits down with the cast to spill all the spicy details from behind the scenes moments to what it was really like bringing Molly's unforgettable journey to life, desire, friendship, self discovery, and the ultimate bucket list of pleasure. This is a story that had everyone talking. Listen to the original Dying for Sex. Plus new bonus episodes on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge the original series before anyone else. Completely ad free on Wondery. But let's get into what your show is, which is the Playboy Murders on id. This is your third season.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And so explain a little bit. They find kind of juicy murders which, you know, sadly involve women being murdered that have some connection to the Playboy world.

[Unknown]

Right. Whether it's a Playmate or a Playboy model or somebody who worked as a bunny in one of the clubs. And there were so many clubs back in the day that we have a third season of the show now, so. Yeah, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And which was so interesting. So the first one I want to talk about is Kim Fatarini.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

She was so pretty. And she died when she was 30. And she was not only modeling and would do the events, but she was also helping to cast parties and stuff. And this was only in 2017.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it just happened in 2017. And this case was brought to my attention on social media. I would have people come into my DMs like, can you please cover this case? Friends of hers who really wanted her story to be told, because in some ways, it's still kind of unsolved. She was found dead of an overdose. It was kind of written off as an accidental overdose, but they found alcohol, cocaine, and GHB in her system. And people don't tend to do GHB as a recreational drug. Also, she was sending texts right before she passed to someone else saying, come help me, somebody put G in my drink. I've never done this before. And then the text messages start to get really incoherent. It just looks like a bunch of like. Like letters strung together. Yeah. So it's a really scary situation. And there wasn't enough evidence, apparently, to do a criminal case, but there's a civil trial pending right now.

[Heather McDonald]

And explain who the civil pen is against. It's the guy, this guy that she was hanging out with.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Sean Merriman, a former football player, and Eli Webe, who was a club promoter, who was the one who got the text messages. I believe that was him that got the text messages. And they're being sued for negligence in her death.

[Heather McDonald]

Well. And so is the friend.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Monica Mash. She's named in the suit as well.

[Heather McDonald]

And I think that is so the friend. So the Night. So they were like, you know, this is back in the day, which I just saw a video of two young girls being like, why is there no LA nightlife in la? There's no nightlife for the Gen Z ers. And I guess it's because they just a. They don't drink as much. They'd rather watch nightlife on their phone by themselves. It's just. I don't know if it'll ever really come back. But they were saying no. The highlight, the highlight years of la. And people were listing it, it was like, you know, maybe 98 to like 2010 or something. Those were the years that they. All those clubs, it was fun, like always something to do every night. Those were the Paris Hilton years. Those were the years that you guys were seeing at the clubs all the time.

[Unknown]

Especially back before people had smartphones. Cuz celebrities felt like they could go out and when, when they were inside the club away from the paparazzi, not get tattled on. So yeah, things really changed. And people got cameras on their phones.

[Heather McDonald]

You know what, you're right.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

That really, that is a bummer because even like, even for me, like I, I've like stopped doing as many stories on my evenings out and stuff because I'm just like, I don't know.

[Unknown]

All you need is one tile. You don't need the whole like. And God, concert videos. Can people stop?

[Heather McDonald]

And fireworks.

[Unknown]

Yeah, concerts and fireworks just don't just enjoy it.

[Heather McDonald]

I know. And it is better just. Yeah. Take your one photo, post it the next day.

[Unknown]

Show a picture of the poster. Yeah, I saw some. Well, I do like seeing some Sabrina Carpenter footage. I'm not gonna lie. She's cute.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. But it also like, I used to hate it. Cause I would like the next day I'd be like, like my voice like, because I'd get buzzed. Yeah. So I'll be like happy. I'm like, oh God, you old piece of. Like I just said like, no. And so now I'm like, no, I'm gonna put more video and like on my Patreon where people are like, okay, I do want to see your evening. But I don't need like, you know, people picking apart like, you know what you were doing, where you were. And so I do think that makes people just be like, yeah, you're right. And so with, with this case. So she was with her girlfriend, they were gonna go out, this girl Monica. And then they come back and it was that they partied so late. So they came, right? They came back to the apartment, Monica's place. And she didn't wake up till three in the afternoon and that's when she found that she was unresponsive. Yeah, but there was the discrepancy when I was reading all the notes she sent me of like, first it was that she just called and was like, we came back and you know, she's now waking up on the couch. Then it was that she saw her and this guy having consensual sex. Which I feel like she's just.

[Unknown]

Yeah, how can you know when somebody's blacked out? You know?

[Heather McDonald]

And like what were. And you were probably wasted too. You probably had the GHB in you too, but you didn't. You lived. You know, it could be one tiny ounce more with a combination that would cause someone to. But I do think there's something, I don't know, kind of scary about if you were just the friend that came along. Like, I mean, we all want to have our girlfriends backs and stuff, but I was like, oh, to have it like haunt you all these years later and then be faced in like a civil case that you didn't do everything you were supposed to do as the friend. I mean, I don't know.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's really scary.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean it is kind of a freak out thing. But I liked hearing about her. But we want people to watch the show. Okay, now let's talk about this other episode. Now this girl had many different names. Yeah, Carissa and then Carrie.

[Unknown]

Yeah, we can call her Carissa. That was her playmate name. She was a playmate in 2000 and she was involved with a guy who was trying to start a cult he seriously wanted to create. This story's so wild, I feel dumb even repeating it. But he won. He was brought up Mormon. He did his missionary work in Brazil. He was very charismatic, was really successful at that apparently. So he came up with a scheme later in life. He was around 30 when all this went down. That he wanted to get a group of Brazilian orphans and brainwash them into becoming assassins to go take out the leaders of the Mormon Church so he could take over the Mormon Church. So that was his scheme. She was involved in this really toxic relationship with him. He convinced her to send her photos to Playboy because he wanted her to become a playmate. And his scheme was he wanted her to be accepted into Playboy and then use the connections that she got there to create like a high paid escort agency. That's what he wanted to do. And she got accepted into Playboy but broke it off with him and got.

[Heather McDonald]

Away once she got to la.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So she gets to la, she gets a waitressing job. He's stalks her down there, shows up at the job, and when her issue's about ready to come out, she tells Hef and Playboy that she's worried about this guy. So they agree that on her promotional tour, they're not going to keep her in one place for more than two days. So she probably got away in the nick of time because not long after that, they find these five bodies. Three of them were dismembered in duffel bags in a river. And he had gone on this killing spree trying to get money from people. They were people that he knew because he was a stockbroker. So they were former clients of his.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, it's such a crazy story because it's like he. And he had a brother. Yeah, he had a brother that he involved in this.

[Unknown]

And this other woman named her girlfriend. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And convinced them that this was, like, all for the good of the God or whatever.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And it's. It's crazy because it's like. I, you know, I don't want to say anything. There's lots of lovely Mormon people, but the amount of, like, horrible, crazy crime that's come from. I was raised Mormon, and then I went on the offshoot, whether it was Lori Valo, who was, like, raised Mormon, and then, like, went crazy in a whole different direction and thought her kids were evil spirits, so she killed him with her boyfriend. There's just been, like, a. You know, of course, there's, like, the Warren Jeffs of the world. And it's just. It's strange that, like, some. There's just a lot of that, unfortunately, that comes. And now people are gonna say, yeah, and how many horrible Catholics. Yes, I agree.

[Unknown]

But there's a fringe in every group.

[Heather McDonald]

There's a fringe in every group. But there's something about, like. I don't know, this was just, you know, very strange and that. Yeah. And I, you know, and I always. I do believe that Mormons, as business people are extremely successful, these men, because they do go out on the missions and they imagine how much rejection they get. Right. Knocking on doors for two years. So then when they get into sales.

[Unknown]

It'S like, they're an actor. It's like the.

[Heather McDonald]

The best sales, like, training on Earth. And so. Yeah. And then add to, like, mental illness and delusion that you're this cult leader.

[Unknown]

It's really crazy. And the more I read about this guy, the crazier it gets. Like, he had this fetish for eating out of a dog bowl. And when he was planning these murders, he wanted to feed the victims to a dog. So he got these three dogs, and he was practicing by giving them just, like, animal meat on bones. And I guess they weren't eating it as much as he wanted them to or something. So he abandons two of the dogs on the side of the road. Red Flag keeps one of them. And it's just weird. Like, the. The more I read about it, it's just the layers to it are so bizarre.

[Heather McDonald]

I know. And I always just think that. And then also when. When women get involved and are also convinced to either you commit the murders like a Charles Manson person, or you're there and you're participating with the cleanup and the planning and the. You know, and then, like, in the case of the woman that was with them, you know, she was basically the eyewitness to it all. And, you know, she got a lot of time, too.

[Unknown]

Yeah, 25 years.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. But they. The two brothers, you know, had it worse. But I don't want to give it all away, but I just. So what I found interesting about the Playmate is, so then what happened was this crime. They arrest them while she's sort of still, like, in the limelight.

[Unknown]

Yeah, she was doing a signing in Vegas.

[Heather McDonald]

Cause she was the actual Playmate of the Year.

[Unknown]

She was a Playmate of the Month.

[Heather McDonald]

That's a huge deal.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And she was then, like, oh, my God.

[Heather McDonald]

That was like, the Playmates of the Month would be, like, on ktla and, like, it was very mainstream. It was very much okay. This is absolutely a launching pad to be on sitcoms and be a host on an E Show.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah. We have so much cute footage of her in the show from on, like, win Ben Stein's money and, like, fun shows like that. And she's so adorable on it. But she was doing a signing in Vegas when the police came to question her about, you know, what could she possibly know about this? She got taken right there from the signing. So it was really scary. But, you know, luckily she got that job just in the nick of time. Because you wonder, like, what else could have happened had she not have that excuse to leave.

[Heather McDonald]

But then she really kind of, you know, went into a very private life after that. And I think that's probably for a couple reasons. One is she was freaked out. And, you know, that might have been what she wanted to do either. But don't you think also Playboy was like, yeah, let's probably not have the Hard copy episodes about the fact that this woman is involved with someone that's absolutely guilty of, like, five gruesome murders.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think that's probably the case. Like, they worked with her a lot to keep her busy and not keep her in one place and keep her as protected as they could. You can't babysit everyone who models for you. Of course. Yeah, I think they did their part with that. But also that when those stories are breaking, that might not be the person they reach out to for the promotions or who they're considering for Playmate of the Year, because then that's what the story would be about.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Unknown]

It's unfortunate.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes. That's very juicy. Okay, now this girl, Lisa Cale. Yes. This is kind of interesting. More the backstory of this era of Playboy.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it was the 80s. They were doing different features around the country. Like, there would be, like, this one was Girls of Texas. And this was when, like, Dallas was huge. And, like, the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders were huge and all that stuff.

[Heather McDonald]

I saw the COVID in the. The materials that you sent me.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's really cute.

[Heather McDonald]

And I remember it.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, that was a big issue. They say that that issue, like, was double what their usual sales were.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. So in. How would they do these, the Girls of Texas? So it was like, you literally would do some amateur photos and, like, mail it in with a stamp. Like, how would they find these people?

[Unknown]

You could do that if you wanted to get in Playboy in general. But for these types of pictorials, they would travel around the country and they would have casting calls in the different cities. So what happened was this girl's sister, Crystal went to the audition, you know, to submit a picture of her sister. But they also saw her and liked what they saw. So they were both in the pictorial and separate shoots. And, yeah, it was a fun experience. And unfortunately, she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The month that issue was out.

[Heather McDonald]

And I can't remember what happened to.

[Unknown]

Her Boyfriend was throwing her a surprise birthday party, and he was there getting the party ready. He had one of his friends, who I guess allegedly was a drug dealer, take her to the party. But he wanted to make a stop along the way. And he goes to this house with her, and unbeknownst to him, there were two hitmen waiting for him. And they ended up killing her as well. So it was just totally the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Heather McDonald]

And I feel like also, like I was saying back, you know. Yeah, of course. Like, of course, when you're that beautiful and stuff. The fact that she could be doing better, but then she's still kind of with this guy who has, like, unsavory friends. It reminded me of the Dorothy Stratton one where before she got the Playboy, he was this guy that, like, she's working at this cute restaurant where he could wear, like, kind of the sexy outfits or whatever. But it wasn't. It wasn't she the one that was working at the restaurant?

[Unknown]

Yeah, a place called Confetti's.

[Heather McDonald]

And the boyfriend came around and, you know, like, sitting there the whole time and then. And then they get their moment, and they feel like, oh, they can't leave. The guy that was there to kind of help, like, the Dorothy Stratton, couldn't get rid of him. And then, of course, if you don't know that story, the guy, Paul, whatever his name was, went insane when she wanted to break up with him. And she really was gonna be, like, a big star.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

She had a whole movie coming out.

[Heather McDonald]

Everything star 80 was, like, the name of the movie about her life.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And also. But also Pamela's. Pamela Anderson. She was, you know, got discovered at a game with her boyfriend because they put her face up on whatever at the sporting game. And then she got to be, like, a poster girl for, like, a beer company. And it was another thing where it was like, oh, I don't know if I can leave this guy that I live with that's just from my small hometown.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's like a guilt complex.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Like, you. I. And also because in all those kind of cases, it seemed like the guy was a little bit more like, like, encouraging or okay with her doing it or sent in the photos or took the photos or, like. And then you're like, ugh. And then you want to. And the other part is, because I remember this back from when I would go to the Playboy Mansion. I was like, so not into, like, meeting anybody or doing anything nefarious. I just like to go eat the food, take the photos. The girls were wearing the painted outfits. I, like, loved it. Would see Carmen Electra there, and blah, blah, blah. So then after I got married and I got invited to New Year's Eve, I was like, oh, instead of bringing a girlfriend for my plus one, I'm bringing my husband. And I remember when I called, and I go, oh, and my plus one is. And I'm like, he's my husband now. And she. The woman on the phone was just like, absolutely not. This is a singles party.

[Unknown]

Oh, My God.

[Heather McDonald]

And I go, oh, well, I don't have to take them. And she, like, literally hung up on me, and I was on the list ever. Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

Whoa.

[Heather McDonald]

And he wouldn't have cared if, like, he would have been like, you can keep going with your friends. Like, he. You know, I just thought. It didn't occur to me, like, by bringing him that I would then be off the list. Yeah.

[Unknown]

That's a blowout.

[Heather McDonald]

Like, Halloween. It was, like, fun. And it was, like, the best Hollywood party.

[Unknown]

Yeah. 100%.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And so anyway, I think that's crazy. And also, like. So who was Hef's. Cause I was thinking about this era of, like, how they would. The play. There were a couple playmates that would, like, get on the Love Boat and stuff.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Who was the one that he had for so long with the brown hair bunny?

[Unknown]

Oh, Barbie. Barbie Benton.

[Heather McDonald]

Barbie Benton.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

What was the deal with her? Because I feel like they were together a long time. I feel like she was always, like, on the Tonight show as Hef's girlfriend.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

But then they never got married.

[Unknown]

Yeah, he had a whole other girl. Well, at the time, he. His original mansion was in Chicago, and then he bought the one in la, which Barbie actually found that house. Barbie was from California. And he would go back and forth.

[Heather McDonald]

And Barbie was a Playmate as well.

[Unknown]

She was in, like, a couple celebrity pictorials. She wasn't, like, a Playmate of the Month, but she was on several covers. And when he would go back to Chicago, he struck up this other relationship that got pretty deep with another woman. And I think that was a big thing that they couldn't really get over. Oh, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. So then. Yeah, so then she went off. So she wasn't a Playmate. She was an actress in her own right or what?

[Unknown]

Yeah, she actually. Hef met her. She was an extra on the set of a show he was doing out in la, and that's how they met. And she was, you know, auditioning and doing things, and she did a few country music albums, and then she was on Hee Haw. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And then. Whatever happened to her?

[Unknown]

Oh, my gosh. Well, she. It's so funny you bring her up, because Bridget and I are recording these episodes that's like the season three finale of Girls Next Door. Cause that's what we're rewatching, and she's in that episode. She was on, like, five different episodes of Girls Next Door. And she's such a character and such an interesting person. She was a lot of fun.

[Heather McDonald]

So there was no weirdness between you and her? Anything or, like, was there anything?

[Unknown]

That there was at first, but I don't feel like it was because of her. It's because the show wanted to, like, pit us against each other and always wants to, like, cut to my resting bitch face and be like, look how jealous she is. So that I didn't, like. I didn't like any of that. But we got to know Barbie over time, and she was really cool.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Okay, so this. This other one, this was back. This is Adrienne.

[Unknown]

Adrienne Pollock. Pollock.

[Heather McDonald]

And this was back about when girls were really wearing the outfits and, like, working at the clubs. And it was a big deal for all these businessmen to have the keys and go to the clubs. And, like, how was it? I was like, thinking, like, you know, my dad was a member in Chicago, and then even after he was married, he would, like, bring clients there and stuff like that. And I don't know. I guess. I mean, my mom didn't care, but I was like, were girls meeting the patrons? And they weren't supposed to fall in love or having to be.

[Unknown]

But we do have another case, not this one, another case this season where a woman gets involved with a married doctor who was a customer at the club. And that didn't end well. But they weren't supposed to. It was really against the rules for the bunnies to date the key holders. And they weren't supposed to even give out their last names or anything like that.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, see, this is the thing. This is how I feel about, like, dancers or cheerleaders of professional football games and Laker games, they kind of do that same thing. They don't want them to. I'm like, what the fuck is the point? Honestly, like, you're not. They don't make a lot of money, the dancers. And I get it, it's to perform. But in this case, like, I would think if I was an attractive girl and I got the job, and it's all these young businessmen, and this is 1960, whatever. I would be like, I'm hoping to meet, like, an up and coming, like, finance executive.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

I'm wearing this cute outfit. I'm charming. I'm serving their drinks.

[Unknown]

Like, I guess if you did, you were supposed to quit. I don't know. But they were making really good money for women at the time, so.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, they were?

[Unknown]

Yeah. So you would want to work there, even if you're not just gonna meet people there.

[Heather McDonald]

But this was also during the time where they thought that there was, like, drug trafficking.

[Unknown]

Going on. Yes. Yeah. You know, the authorities were really trying to catch Hef doing something for whatever reason. They were just annoyed with him. So they caught one of his secretaries, not this woman, but one of his secretaries with cocaine and were trying to get her to, like, testify against Hef, and she ended up killing herself around the same time. And then this woman was living at the mansion for a while and going on trips with everybody and flying on Hef's private jet. And she would write letters home that made some of her friends think she was like, you know, kind of a drug mule for these guys sometime. And then she ends up mysteriously dead of an overdose out of nowhere. So the family really feels like they have a lot of unanswered questions.

[Heather McDonald]

And that was. And in her system, it was the Quaaludes, which was like the drug of.

[Unknown]

Choice even up to my era. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And because they would call them like thigh openers. Yeah, thigh openers or leg spurs or whatever. And so it would just kind of make you loopy, but it wouldn't put. Would it put you out like a.

[Unknown]

I never took one, but I've heard people say, like, if they took one and didn't know what it was, they just trusted it because, like half handed it to them and drinking champagne, they're out of it. And next thing they know, they're waking up and somebody's on top of them. So. Oh, yeah. So it can do a lot.

[Heather McDonald]

So it can maybe not as bad as like a GHB where you just completely don't know what happened. But. Yeah, because where are Quaaludes now? I feel that they don't exist, do they?

[Unknown]

I don't think they're legal to be manufactured anymore. They haven't been for a while.

[Heather McDonald]

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[Holly Madison]

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[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, this one was really. This one was crazy. But also with the woman that then unfortunately killed herself. The letter that she left that's featured in your episode is a little. Yeah, it was like they found a letter and it said, you know, I'm ending this world or whatever. Because you're thinking that Hugh Hefner did this, and there's absolutely no way, like, I could find it in here like it is. Yeah.

[Unknown]

She says something like, he's such a moral man.

[Heather McDonald]

And Hugh M. Hefner also, that you would put someone's middle name. Okay. This was her suicide note, though few will ever realize it. A staunchly upright, rigorously moral man. And I know him well, and he has never been involved in criminal activity which is being attributed to him. Now, this is the irony, but I have come to know that innocence is of small significance when compared to the real purpose and intent of. Of the various government agencies engaged in pursuing him and leveling their harassment against me to the masses. So therefore, I'm going to end my life.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, come on. I'm not saying that he ended her life, but this note, it seems like a lot.

[Unknown]

I mean, granted, you could look at it as if you're in the state of mind to end your own life. You could be thinking all kinds of weird things. But it does seem. It seems like a plant or something.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, yeah. Like, come on.

[Unknown]

It's like.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Like, he's so moral and so fabulous, and there's no way. I mean, I'm not saying he had anything to do with her death or that he was a trafficker, but just very convenient. Like, that the person who they were looking into for your criminal activity happened to kill themselves and then write you a glowing recommendation.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's very strange. It really is.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Why. So then why did all those clubs and. Because they just were not profitable anymore.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I think things changed. You know, the clubs opened up in 1960. This was like the Mad Men era, when people were going out to these really decadent business lunches, and they'd go out and they'd want to see, like, comedians and bands at the club and things like that. But then in the 70s, you get to, like, discos and, like, nightclubs as we know them now, and people weren't really going to the type of place that a Playboy Club was. So it just kind of, like, went out of stage.

[Heather McDonald]

Just like how clubbing of the Aughts is totally different today.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Times change. It's crazy.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. I was saying. So my dad was from that like Mad Men era and we were out with some people this weekend and one of the people ordered gin and I'm like, oh, gin's like making such a big comeback. And I'm like, you know, and I remember my dad saying Jin was. It was a gin martini that started. That's what they used. But then the marketing around vodka was get a vodka martini because it has no smell. So you could have a three martini.

[Unknown]

Lunch and no one would go back to work. I like that tidbit of information. That's interesting.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Now it's like everybody just goes, ava, vodka martini or what kind of vodka do you want your martini less? You say Jen. And Yeah, that's. Okay. So we. Okay. What was the. This was the bunny hunt. Okay. So this was the photographer.

[Unknown]

Oh my God. That case too. This case could be a mini series. This took place in the Tampa bay area in 1983. And there was a serial killer that was killed at least eight women. And they called it the Summer of hell locally. And it started off the Playboy connection is there was a club in the Tampa Bay area and they were having their bunny of the year pageant, which was something they would do every year at the Playboy clubs. And they hired this up and coming female photographer to come photograph the bunny of the year pageant. And the next day, or I think it was, I'm not sure how much time had passed. Not much time had passed since that event. She was found shot in the head and raped and murdered. And then so that kind of kicks off this Summer of Hell, as they called it, where there was a serial killer killing all these women locally. And this case is just so crazy because they put an 18 year old man in jail based on bite mark evidence, which was something that really caught on because it was effective in the Ted Bundy trial. But it.

[Heather McDonald]

And also we didn't have DNA.

[Unknown]

Yeah, no DNA back then, but it wasn't very accurate. They ended up putting this 18 year old man in prison for 37 years, only to find out later because they took the old evidence, this is in the year 2000. They took the old evidence from the rape kit from that woman's murder and found, you know, based on the DNA evidence, that that guy they put in jail was actually innocent. And they found out who actually did it because the two men who did it were currently serving life sentences for something else. And they were in the database. So that's how they figured out who was doing it. But even crazier coincidence is after that photographer was killed a year later, the woman who won the Bunny of the Year pageant was found stabbed in her home.

[Heather McDonald]

And she won and then got to go to la.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And what was also unique is that she was a black woman and she was the only black woman running in the contest, which is also interesting because Hugh really was someone. This is so long ago. And that wasn't even brought up or made a big deal. It was just. She was the prettiest, she had the best personality. Everyone really liked her. The people voted for her, and she won. And he did break a lot of, you know, at the time, like, barriers, social barriers, and just putting people of color in front of people and, you know, it made a difference. It's just like putting them. Putting a different. Diversity in media is really important because you see it, you accept it, and like, then it's. Hopefully will make you a more accepting person in your own life. But. Yeah. And so then. But they. What happened with her? So that happened in la, her crime in la?

[Unknown]

No, she won a. When you win the contest, you won a trip to the mansion. So she went to the mansion but then came back. Oh, okay. And she ended up being stabbed in her own home. And that murder is still unsolved. They haven't found out who did that. They know it wasn't the same two men who were doing the other killings because they had already been put in prison before she was killed. So that one is still unsolved.

[Heather McDonald]

Like, reading these yesterday, I was just like, oh, I understand why that whole conversation of, like, would you want to be left in the woods with a man you don't know or a bear?

[Unknown]

I know, it just.

[Heather McDonald]

I feel like, like, these bunnies were, like, hunted. Literally, like real bunnies are being like. It was just.

[Unknown]

It was scary.

[Heather McDonald]

It was such, like an un. Safe situation. And. And that was, you know, around the bunny years and just like, just people being like, oh, I think I'd like to go and. And just kill somebody. Like, it's just. It's so interesting. But during this era of these contests and things, it reminds me of the Tropicana contests. Remember that?

[Unknown]

The Hawaiian Tropics.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes, the Hawaiian Tropic contest. And would there be a crossover a lot with that, with the girls that would do the Hawaiian Tropic and then go to Playboy? Or was it ever like, well, if you were already featured in that, we don't want you, or was there ever any exclusivity where it was like, someone would come along and they weren't as fresh of a face because, well, a.

[Unknown]

Lot of girls would become a playmate, would come from Hawaiian Tropic. I worked for Hawaiian Tropic before.

[Heather McDonald]

I thought you did.

[Unknown]

A bunch of Playmates in that era worked for Hawaiian Tropic before they came to Playboy.

[Heather McDonald]

And now does none of that exist anymore? No.

[Unknown]

It's crazy.

[Heather McDonald]

Why doesn't it? Cause it's just too sexist.

[Unknown]

I don't know. It's a good question. I'm fascinated by businesses that are really successful. And what do you do with that business once it's not politically correct anymore? I think the same way about Hooters. I worked at Hooters in college, and I loved it. It was such a fun job. But what do you do when that's your company and it's no longer politically correct? Like, how do you pivot?

[Heather McDonald]

And where is Hooters right now?

[Unknown]

Well, they said they were going bankrupt, but now they're not.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Unknown]

I think there's just less restaurants than there used to be.

[Heather McDonald]

I remember, like, with flight attendants back in the, like, 60s, too, because I had, like, a. A second cousin, whatever. That was one. And they would weigh you.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And then it was real. Another job, like, another type. Like, either you went, you know, only a few. Only a handful of women were going off to college at that time and oftentimes encouraged to be, like, a nurse or a teacher. And then if you didn't do that, a really great job was either being and you were attractive is like doing the Playmate or being a secretary, which you didn't need college. You could have go to, like, secretary of school or the flight attendant thing, where, again, you might, like, meet a businessman. But also, it put women in a place to, you know, travel or be seen as just the girlfriend or the promiscuous girl or whatever. And so during that time, like, they. They would. You had to be like, I think in age weight. You wore the really cute, sexy outfits.

[Unknown]

I miss old flight attendant outfits. I think those are so cute.

[Heather McDonald]

Like the.

[Unknown]

I mean, I've never seen them in real life, so I shouldn't say I miss them, but, like, when I see pictures, they just look so cute, you.

[Heather McDonald]

Know, really, it was such an elite thing to do, so people did dress up, and they were also flying for, like, business meetings, so it was mostly men. And I remember my dad would come home and have all the little bottles of alcohol. Like, they'd give it to him or whatever. And so he'd have these extra bottles of alcohol, and he was like, oh, they would do these, like, drinking games on the plane. Yes. And they would be like, okay, for a free drink, guys, who has the largest hole in their dress sock? And whoever had like the largest.

[Unknown]

I'm going to say something totally else.

[Heather McDonald]

I'm sorry, I just realized that. But it was like they were like playing games like that. And I'm like, this is so flirty.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And so then I remember my mom. Okay, so my dad had this niece, but because she was adopted, it wasn't. But still it was his niece. And so she's the flight attendant. She brings over another cute flight attendant for dinner. And my mom makes this, like, great dinner and everything around, like, all these kids. And then the. The niece is like, thanks so much for dinner, Pam. Uncle Bob and I, and like, Marissa, we're just gonna. I want to toodle off. I want to show her that fun bar down the street.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God.

[Heather McDonald]

And my dad said, my mom looked at him like, and he was like, no, you guys just go ahead without me. But it was just like. It was just this whole. Like, there were women that, you know, like, at that era that then the housewives at home saw them as like, oh, those are the flight attendants. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. And it's like, it's such an interesting. It's such an interesting time.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

So you think, like, when you talk about these politically, do you think this is ever, like, now women have such autonomy, which if they want to use their looks in a more sexual way, they can go to like, onlyfans or whatever like that. How do you feel about that movement towards where we are now? Like, with all of that?

[Unknown]

God, I don't know where it's going. I don't think people will ever stop talking about it. There's always gonna be people who hate it, and there are people who accept it. And then when you do things like onlyfans, there's always like kind of a downside to it and things like that. So there's gonna be people who come out of it regretting it and saying, don't do it. And then there's gonna be people who don't and make all the money. It's just like, never ending circle.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, but it is. It's like, I was thinking, like, do strip clubs still exist? I mean, I'm sure they do in Vegas.

[Unknown]

Absolutely. Yeah. But people. People say that people don't go as much anymore. Like, the younger generation really doesn't Want to go to strip clubs for whatever reason. I'm curious why that is. Maybe they're just too addicted to porn on their phones.

[Heather McDonald]

I think you also have to sort of be introduced to it. So if none of your friends are going and they've never gone, I just don't think it, like, occurs to them to go. True.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Like, you know, like, I can't imagine. I don't know. I mean, I can't. Yeah. Like, being like, okay, let's go. Like, if it's not something you're doing or your boss isn't taking you. And also just. I think they're, like, wiser, this generation of men, knowing that these girls don't like you.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

You know what I mean? Like, I think, you know, they're just.

[Unknown]

Hopping on dating apps instead. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

It feels like they're watching Surprise Sopranos now, and they're like, ew, I don't want to be that, like, guy that's like. And also, they. They. I think they do, as a generation, like, realize, like, that's not cool to, like, see women in a more disrespectful way.

[Unknown]

Or also, with a strip club wedding, it could be that nothing's private anymore. You know? Like, men probably used to feel like they could go to strip clubs and no one would know. Yeah. But everybody's so gossipy and filming everything and taking photos of everything and.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. There'd be such a stand. Or, like, have you seen the glitter thing, Yo. Yeah, like, so it's like, what women. So they. So women who are, like, going to meet a guy, it's so hard to know if they're even if they're on the apps, if they're truly single or they got girlfriend, wife, whatever. So somehow they put glitter right on their bodies. But then are, like, guys being able to realize, like, what.

[Unknown]

I feel like you'd have to be a seasoned cheater to be like, I can't touch her because I'm going to go home with this glitter on me.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. So let's just switch gears. Cause we were talking about this before the show, so we've talked a lot about Meghan and Meghan.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And, you know, she's got her thing. I've said, look, I understand the criticism, but also, I'm like, girl, she's no longer, you know, making money with her husband in England. She's got kids to take care of. She's got this guy that I don't know what he's gonna do out here to make money. So she's Doing all the things that all of us does. She's got a little jam company. She's got a show, a cooking show. It's not a new channel. I love that.

[Unknown]

We all have a jam company.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, we all. Yeah, we all have, like, these sides. She's got the podcast. She's got whatever. She's got Shop With Me. These are my favorite jeans. Whatever. But you were saying you saw Something interesting on YouTube?

[Unknown]

Oh, my God. There's this YouTube channel that keeps coming up in my algorithm. I don't know what I did to get there. I want to say it's called, like, Dan Wooten or something like that. I forget the name of it. But it's this guy who all he does. Maybe it's not all of his content. I haven't gone to his page and looked, but everything that comes up every day is just. He has like a whole news setup and it's just criticizing Megan. And he'll have, like, these, you know, royal insiders come up. And the way they go in and just criticize, like, the dumbest stuff. I watch it, I think. Cause it makes me feel better about myself because we all have these haters online and I'm like, well, if people are going so hard over this stupid shit that I don't feel so bad because I've never seen a woman get on TV and do the most bland things you can do. And people will find, like, evil intent in, like, everything she says.

[Heather McDonald]

It's wild. I mean, I just think in exploring it, it is kind, it is fascinating, it is interesting. And obviously, you know, people realize, oh, well, those videos do better than this because it's a more universal subject. And everyone who knows Meghan Markle is, you know. But now the latest is that he had this charity, Prince Harry, that he founded in 2006 in honor of his mother. And it was for HIV AIDS unit in London. Helped kids and everything. It's called Sentebel. And now, according to these articles, it's in jeopardy. Or they wanna. It's on hold. Or they wanna get rid of him. Because one of the chair people was so annoyed, like, with Megan trying to do this, like, trophy moment. And then after that moment, allegedly, he wrote her a email that now she says was on the verge of bullying. Whoa. Like, he wrote and was like, kinda like, how dare you treat Megan like that? Like she was, you know, whatever, trying to do something nice. And so that's where it is. So it's like another story that the public can get on and be like, this woman Is ruining his life. And I'm like, all the things. Take the royal stuff out of it. Is could happen to anybody.

[Unknown]

Low level drama. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Anyone could like a woman, like, have you move closer to their family, away from yours because she's having kids and she wants her mom nearby. Like, granted it's England to California, but like. But then people go into all the other things. I get it. But I'm just saying in defense of her, because I've been oftentimes, you know, like talking, making fun of the same. But I've also been in defense of her a lot. And I think that's like a one of the things. Now this is another thing. Like, you know, we don't know that. After that, she was like, wow, that was like, really weird and disturbing. And he was like, yeah, you know what? I don't want that to happen again because you're going to be with me at the next thing. So let me write this email.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And then it becomes this other thing. And so totally. And this was like his one thing that he was doing.

[Unknown]

Right. So now. Oh, no.

[Heather McDonald]

I guess he can put the little break on the jams and. Right. And make the string. I don't know. And then the other article that came out was from page six. Prince Harry's allegedly not overly happy with his wife Megan using their kids to promote her brand. Well, I mean, those are her kids. And it feels like I'm just seeing like more of the back of the kids.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think somebody made that one up.

[Heather McDonald]

What do you think's gonna happen with the two of them?

[Unknown]

I don't know. I mean, if I could imagine them staying together because they feel like they have to if they were having problems. Cause wouldn't you feel dumb after all that getting a divorce?

[Heather McDonald]

Well, it would be. Yeah. You wonder when you're at that level. I always think when people go about even couples that seem happy, like, even like Jada and Will before we knew about the entanglement and the slap and everything, when they would like, wear matching outfits and gush about each other on Oprah. I mean, I remember working with the Waynes brothers and being like someone had broken up, like Tom and Nicole Kidman and there was another breakup. And I was like, if Jada and Will break up. And they were like, oh, my God, people lose their mind at that time. Once they did, it was like, okay, we've seen some weird interviews and we've seen some. But when they were like wearing the matching outfits and talk gushing about each other. And these. This is my bonus son. Cut to 10 years later, she's screwing the bonus son's friend. Like, all that stuff. I think it's a lot like, same with like, a Chrissy Teigen and John Legend. Like, oh, relationship goals. When, like, your Persona is so, like, we're this funny couple. We tweet each other funny things. We. It's all about our cute family. And it's like, doesn't mean you're gonna necessarily break up and get divorced, but you might have some, like, rough years.

[Unknown]

And feel extra like you have to hide it because there's so much invested.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, the extra of, like, we gotta stay in it when we really wouldn't want, like, it is a lot. And I do think if they were to break up. Yeah, like, so many people would, like, fucking be dancing a jig and being like, I told, you know, and nobody. Why would you want that? Like, they have two little kids, they're in their 40s. I hope they do stay together and make it work and they have fun. And, you know, he's just not a prince anymore. He's just not going to the English factories and, like, shaking hands or cutting ribbons, like. But it is, like, a bummer that he's not doing what he's supposed to be doing with his brother. But at the same time, he was the spare.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Like, yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

It'S crazy. Well, tell everybody where they can watch it and also listen to your podcast.

[Unknown]

Playboy Murders Season 3 comes out Cinco de Mayo, May 5th. And it'll be on Investigation Discovery. And then later you can stream it on Max and Girls. Next level is anywhere you find your podcast.

[Heather McDonald]

And for those of you who haven't watched it, there's already two seasons.

[Unknown]

Yes. So there's a lot to binge.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. There's a lot to get into. And so it was so great to see you. Look. Absolutely.

[Unknown]

Thanks for having me. Gorgeous.

[Heather McDonald]

Thanks for having me. So do you everything. How's the Vegas life?

[Unknown]

I love it. I love it. And the weather's perfect there right now, so it's so great.

[Heather McDonald]

And what's like, the new hot Vegas thing to do?

[Unknown]

I don't know what the new hot thing to do is. I just like to go around and try different things. I like quirky places.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And you're really. Your Instagram's really fun. Thanks to follow you. Just went to a restaurant recently with the Singing Frog.

[Unknown]

Is that the one you're thinking of?

[Heather McDonald]

I don't know. I don't know. But I like that when you. I Like, hearing, like, this is, like, the place to go. And this was the meal and. No, it was in. It was a restaurant with an oyster bar. And then.

[Unknown]

Oh, that was at Palace Station, which is this kind of random, like, off the strip.

[Heather McDonald]

That's what I was kind of surprised about. Cause I was like, isn't that, like, the old part? It is.

[Unknown]

And it's right by where I live, so it's where I go to watch movies all the time. That's the movie theater I go to. And we went to go eat at the steakhouse there. That was so good. And I show everything I eat, blah, blah, blah. And they have this, like, really famous oyster bar that I haven't tried yet. And, like, the line for it always goes around the whole casino. So I'll have to go back there and make a video about that, too. But I was there with a couple friends that. Two guys who are married to each other.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And in one of my food shots, somebody sees a ring. And in the comments, people like, where are you at with a marina man? So that's like, my new shtick is I always have to borrow one of my married man friends to, like, take me out.

[Heather McDonald]

That's so true. You could. Everyone. Yeah. If you have a gay best friend who's a man and he's married. Yeah. You can really start some. You could start some major rumors.

[Unknown]

Yeah. It's my new thing. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Those are the only married men you'll have dinner with. I love it. Thank you so much. Yeah. This is great. Thank you for all your content. So great and juicy. Love it. Thanks.

[Holly Madison]

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