Juicy Crimes: Karen Read, Idaho, Lori Vallow with Annie Elise

Summary

Podcast Summary: Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald
Episode: Juicy Crimes: Karen Reed, Idaho, Lori Vallow with Annie Elise
Release Date: April 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this riveting episode of Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald, host Heather McDonald dives deep into some of the most sensational and controversial criminal cases, accompanied by her expert guest, Annie Elise. Skipping the usual advertisements and intros, the duo focuses on dissecting high-profile crimes, offering insights, theories, and engaging discussions that keep listeners hooked from start to finish.

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Karen Reed Case

Overview

Heather and Annie begin by delving into the perplexing case of Karen Reed, a 44-year-old woman from Massachusetts accused of manslaughter and second-degree murder after allegedly striking her Boston police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, with her car while under the influence. This tragic incident occurred in January 2022 after a night out drinking with fellow officers.

Key Events and Evidence

• Initial Incident (02:06 - 03:02)

  • Karen and John attended a night out with other cops, consuming significant alcohol.
  • Post-drinking, they decided to continue the evening at a friend's sister's house.
  • John exited the car to check in, but did not return, leading Karen to panic.

• Discovery of John’s Body (12:01 - 15:16)

  • Karen, with friends Carrie and Jen, returned to find John deceased in the snow.
  • Paramedics arrived, but inconsistencies arose in how the crime scene was handled.
  • Annie Elise elaborates: "[...] the police never secured the crime scene properly, collecting evidence in red solo cups and stop-and-shot bags." (14:54)
  • Dr. McDonald highlights the questionable nature of the evidence collection process, adding, "This really is too juicy." (29:30)

• Criminal Charges and Trial Proceedings (17:56 - 33:00)

  • Karen was initially charged with manslaughter, with charges later escalated to second-degree murder.
  • Notable Quote: "There's just so much reasonable doubt in this case." — Annie Elise (26:52)
  • The first trial ended in a mistrial due to jury indecision, largely influenced by miscommunication about charges.
  • A retrial is set to begin, with new evidence and expert testimonies being pivotal.

Defense and Prosecution Strategies

• Defense Highlights:

  • Pointing out procedural mishandlings and misconduct by the lead investigator, Michael Proctor, who was subsequently fired.
  • Emphasizing inconsistencies in the evidence, such as the taillight fragments and the nature of John’s injuries.
  • "They found pig DNA, not dog DNA, on John’s wounds, which raises significant questions." — Annie Elise (44:25)

• Prosecution Focus:

  • Utilizing digital evidence like text messages between Karen and DEA agent Brian Higgins.
  • Presenting crash reconstruction experts to argue that John's injuries were inconsistent with a simple vehicular accident.

Public and Jury Perception

• Public Opinion:

  • A significant portion of the public supports Karen, with polls indicating a 95% belief in her innocence.
  • Annie Elise notes: "Hundreds of people with signs saying 'Free Karen Reed' were present at the courthouse." (33:18)

• Jury Challenges:

  • The initial mistrial was partly due to the jury believing they unanimously found her not guilty of the highest charge, but were misinformed of their mandate.

Insights and Theories

• Potential Alternate Theories:
  • Speculation about possible third-party involvement, such as Colin Albert, the homeowner’s nephew, who has a questionable background.
  • Discussions about possible domestic conflicts or external smear campaigns affecting the case.

Notable Quotes:

• "There's so much shadiness... it certainly makes you ask the question, is she innocent or being framed or did she do this?" — Annie Elise (28:05)
• "As a juror, I would be like, there's just not enough for me to put this girl away." — Heather McDonald (47:09)

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Idaho Quadruple Murder Trial

Overview

Transitioning to another high-profile case, Heather and Annie discuss the Idaho quadruple murder trial involving Brian Kohberger, a criminology student accused of stabbing and killing four college students. The trial is slated to start in August, following a complex investigation characterized by digital footprints and forensic evidence.

Key Points and Evidence

• Case Background (53:14 - 58:55)

  • The murders occurred in a college sorority house, shocking the community.
  • Initial evidence pointed towards Kohberger due to his purchasing of knives and sharpeners, and his phone activity around the crime scene.
  • Annie Elise explains: "His browser history shows purchases of a KA Bar knife and sheath, which were key pieces of evidence." (58:32)

• Public Opinion and Defense Theories (62:33 - 71:13)

  • A group dubbed "Pro Burgers" believes Kohberger is innocent, suggesting framing by law enforcement.
  • Annie Elise shares: "There's so much PTSD and survivors..." (61:38)
  • Notable Quote: "His autism diagnosis is being used to explain social behavior, adding to reasonable doubt." — Annie Elise (67:17)

Current Trial Status

• Evidence Discussed:
  • Release of the 911 call highlights the delayed response and chaos among the victims.
  • Examination of Kohberger’s digital footprint and the physical evidence collected, including touch DNA.
• Public and Jury Considerations:
  • High media presence and public interest complicate jury impartiality.
  • The defense is leveraging procedural errors and questioning the integrity of the investigation.

Insights and Speculations

• Defense Strategies:
  • Arguing that Kohberger did not know the victims and had no digital connections to them.
  • Highlighting his academic background and potential cyber manipulation of evidence.

Notable Quotes:

• "The DNA is the biggest piece of actual physical evidence that they have." — Annie Elise (67:37)
• "As a juror, I would think it's beyond a reasonable doubt." — Heather McDonald (47:13)

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Lori Vallow Case

Overview

The episode shifts focus to Lori Vallow, a mother who represented herself in the trial for the murder of her ex-husband. Her unconventional legal strategies and erratic courtroom behavior have made her one of the most talked-about figures in true crime.

Trial Proceedings and Behavior

• Self-Representation (72:04 - 76:15)

  • Lori chose to represent herself, culminating in a swift guilty verdict after only a few hours of deliberation.
  • Heather comments: "She is such a looney tune... she's detached from reality." (72:43)

• Courtroom Antics:

  • Lori displayed bizarre behavior during cross-examinations, questioning witnesses about unrelated personal anecdotes.
  • Annie Elise describes: "She didn't even do a closing argument." (75:00)
  • Notable Quote: "She tried to blame her daughter's death on Tyler, her own child, which is deeply offensive." — Heather McDonald (75:24)

Aftermath and Public Reaction

• Juror Reflections:

  • Jurors were reportedly unaware of the full extent of Lori’s crimes until after the verdict, leaving them shaken and conflicted.
  • Heather states: "If I was on the jury, I'd feel a massive responsibility." (75:43)

• Ethical Concerns:

  • Annie reveals troubling information about a former employee forming inappropriate relationships with Lori, highlighting ethical breaches within the true crime reporting community.
  • Annie Elise shares: "A colleague was messaging Lori, pretending to relate to her, which is sickening." (78:15)

Insights and Discussions

• Legal Implications:
  • Lori’s self-representation raises questions about the efficacy of defense strategies without legal expertise.
  • The rapid deliberation period underscores the overwhelming evidence against her.

Notable Quotes:

• "She was more concerned with green enchiladas and family gatherings than the reality of the crime." — Annie Elise (75:32)
• "The jurors didn’t know about her children until after the trial, which must have been jarring." — Heather McDonald (76:15)

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Menendez Brothers Update

Overview

Heather and Annie provide a brief update on the Menendez brothers, infamous for their 1989 double murder of their parents. With resentencing hearings approaching in May, the brothers remain under intense public scrutiny.

Current Status

• Resentencing Hearings (79:32 - 80:59)
  • The brothers are expected to be resentenced in May, with discussions around their release and potential future endeavors.
  • Public sentiment is divided, with some advocating for their release and others emphasizing their guilt.

Insights and Speculations

• Future Plans:
  • Speculations abound about the brothers’ potential involvement in media ventures, such as podcasts or reality TV, leveraging their notoriety.
  • Heather muses: "They should just make their money tapping into the frenzy." (80:12)

Notable Quotes:

• "They are going to probably try to be classy, but they shouldn't delay their moves." — Heather McDonald (80:47)

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Conclusion

In this comprehensive episode, Heather McDonald and Annie Elise navigate through some of the juiciest and most controversial crime cases, providing listeners with in-depth analysis, expert opinions, and thought-provoking theories. From the tangled web surrounding Karen Reed’s trial to the high-stakes Idaho quadruple murder and the sensational Lori Vallow case, the duo leaves no stone unturned. Their engaging discussions not only inform but also invite listeners to ponder the complexities of the justice system, media influence, and human behavior in the face of tragedy.

Final Thoughts:

Heather encourages listeners to join her Patreon for even more exclusive content, promising deeper dives into these and other captivating cases. Whether you're a true crime aficionado or a casual listener, this episode of Juicy Scoop offers a wealth of information and insights that are both enlightening and enthralling.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Annie Elise (14:54): "There's just so much shadiness... it certainly makes you ask the question, is she innocent or being framed or did she do this?"

• Annie Elise (26:52): "There's so much reasonable doubt in this case."

• Heather McDonald (47:09): "As a juror, I would be like, there's just not enough for me to put this girl away."

• Annie Elise (67:37): "The DNA is the biggest piece of actual physical evidence that they have."

• Heather McDonald (75:24): "She tried to blame her daughter's death on Tyler, her own child, which is deeply offensive."

• Heather McDonald (80:47): "They are going to probably try to be classy, but they shouldn't delay their moves."

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This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and notable moments that make Juicy Scoop a must-listen for true crime enthusiasts.

Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoop.

[Annie Elise]

When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr. Segment, serial data and cereal sister.

[Heather McDonald]

You'll be addicted and addicted fast to.

[Annie Elise]

The number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in, listen up. Hannah McDonald's juicy scoop.

[Heather McDonald]

Hello, and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, I have a real juicy show today. We're gonna cover some juicy crimes. And I love my guest, but I know you want me to get into the Valley, what's going on? And I. Because we did such a full show today, I'm gonna cover the Valley and the inside scoop that I have about some of the players. Cause you know, I'm one of the Valley girls. I am going to do that on my Friday Patreon. So you go to heathermcdonald.net and you click on Patreon and you'll get that along with all the most personal stuff about my life. So let's get into it. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Today we're gonna get into some of your juiciest crimes that you guys have been talking about. That I've been talking about. And I have an expert. Yes. Because you tell me you don't know what you're talking about, Heather. Sometimes with these crimes. But I love them, and that's why I love having someone who really is an expert. And please welcome Annie Elise.

[Annie Elise]

Hi.

[Heather McDonald]

From your YouTube show.

[Annie Elise]

It's hard to say. Serialistly. YouTube and podcast.

[Heather McDonald]

Serial. Serial. Serious. Great show. I've been a guest on your show and I'm so excited to have you here because I am obsessed with the Karen Reid case, and it's one of those that I've covered on my Juicy Crimes, which I do on Patreon, and I've covered it here, and I love all the different theories, and I've tried to cast her of what the show would be, the movie that'll be about her life.

[Annie Elise]

Ooh. Who do you think it'll be?

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, well, I thought of someone last night that I think would be really good.

[Annie Elise]

Who?

[Heather McDonald]

Jessica Biel.

[Annie Elise]

That is a good one. Do you think she could do a Boston accent?

[Heather McDonald]

I think she's a really good actress. So I think if she wanted to. Of course, we could also go with. Let me go to Karen Reid. We could also go. I mean, it doesn't have to be the exact look, and it doesn't have to be someone who's brunette and doesn't have to be someone who kind of has, like, the, like, the kind of hooded, slanted, like, sexy eye, I think. Who's the girl that played One Drop?

[Annie Elise]

Amanda Seyfried. Seyfried.

[Heather McDonald]

Because I think she is such a good actress, I think. And because she embodied that character of Elizabeth Holmes, I think she could do her really well, too. I just know that when you talk about. Could she do an accent, there's certain actors that, like, you know, can get it down and do it. I don't want Blake Lively to do her awful Boston accent.

[Annie Elise]

Hell, no. From the town.

[Heather McDonald]

From the town where she was having an affair with Ben Affleck. Allegedly. Oh, my gosh. Someone. I just saw a clip right. Recently of someone posted of Reese Witherspoon, and they were like, I think she's talking about her friend Jennifer Garner. Cause she was, like, being Starkey. Like, she was doing, like, a roast or something. And she was like, and when you send nudes to your married boyfriend, don't include your face. And everyone was like, I think that's. Cause do you see how Jennifer Garner recently did some posts? This is how I talked to Blake Lively. Like, everything's just coming out.

[Annie Elise]

I know. There's also been the new information I just saw this weekend.

[Heather McDonald]

We can talk a little bit about that, and then we'll get into Karen. It doesn't matter.

[Annie Elise]

Crime.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, No, I have some new information, too. So go about Justin and Blake. Yeah.

[Annie Elise]

Okay. So what I had heard this weekend is that they had her company. She created.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Annie Elise]

The Van City, which is Ryan's. And hers was like Tars, whatever. Tarzana, something.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Annie Elise]

And how they were saying that the affair did for sure start during the Green Lantern and that that's when the company was created. And it was like a hybrid of the name and all this stuff just kind of, again, illustrating. Yeah. Allegedly illustrating all of the shading.

[Heather McDonald]

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[Heather McDonald]

The other part of that whole thing is that it was that company that, that they said this is. This company brought, made this like weird lawsuit that then was able to have that publicist go, oh my God, I'm being sued. Okay, here's all the text messages. Because the Justin Beldoni side never understood how this even began. And now they're realizing that that company, whatever you said, Van, it's like Tarzan. Some weird thing sent out this thing, this frivolous lawsuit that then got those text messages which then from there, they surmised, oh, my God, there was a smear campaign against us, against Blake, from Justin Baldoni's side. And according to people that are talking to the Justin Beldoni people, they now. They were so blindsided Justin and so confused from the beginning of when she first did the lawsuit, then the New York Times article, and now they believe in their research that some of the bad press and videos that they were getting from her saying supposedly being rude on set and whatever it was, really came from DV victims, you know, domestic violence victims, who were unhappy with her, the way she promoted the movie. And they were fans of Colleen, who wrote the book, and it's them who got. Who were. Were doing the kind of getting out the bad stories about Blake. And it was never Justin and his team, which. One of the things I find fascinating about this whole thing is all of that. The bots, the smear campaigns, how it comes about, how it can roll, how when you're the recipient of it, it seems much larger than it really is. Why sometimes you should probably not acknowledge it and let it go. Because I always said I forgot about the bad press. By the time the New York Times article came out, I'd forgotten all about it 100%.

[Annie Elise]

And it tracks if other people were responsible for it. Because I rem. I saw the movie. I saw it with my sister. I had read the book, and I myself was like, this is horrible. The way they're portraying this is completely wrong. They didn't even stay true to the book. So I could see where people were getting angry about that. And outspoken. But to your point. Yeah. You just ride the wave of the bad press because it's gonna be in the rearview mirror before you know it. Just, like, don't get sucked up. And now look at what's happening.

[Heather McDonald]

And now, according to, you know, what's out there is. Yes. Like, the depositions are coming, and Taylor Swift will have to do it, which, I mean, that can end a friendship.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Where you're like, I have to. I mean, anything that's like, turn over your text messages will make everybody's butthole clench. Like, it is just anything like that is like, what I. How far back do we have to go? Like, what?

[Annie Elise]

I would never want text messages out there. Nobody hack me. Please, nobody hack me.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, it's like, yeah, it's just like, what the hell?

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

It's crazy. Anyway, so let's get into Karen Reed, who will not be played by Blake Lively.

[Annie Elise]

Yes, definitely.

[Heather McDonald]

She is a juicy scooper.

[Annie Elise]

Karen Reed. Is.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Annie Elise]

Ah, okay.

[Heather McDonald]

Somebody I know met her, can't say who met her, but so I want to give her case justice. And I have said this is, why don't you, since you're the expert, why don't you, to the people that might still be confused of what this case is about, why don't you explain a little bit about it?

[Annie Elise]

Okay. So Karen reed is a 44 year old woman from Massachusetts and she's accused of hitting her Boston cop boyfriend John O'Keefe with her car while she was under the influence. And then it ultimately resulted in his death. This was back in January of 2022. And so they had gone out drinking that night with a bunch of other cop friends. They went from bar to bar, consumed a fair amount of. Yeah, a fair amount of alcohol.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Annie Elise]

And then towards the end of the night, one of the women that she was with said, oh, we're all going to go back to my sister's house who's also married to a Boston cop and we're going to kind of have the after party, keep going. So they go to the house and according to Karen, she pulls up, she. They'd never been to that house before, so she wanted to make sure that they were welcome. And so John got out of the car, he was going to go pop his head in and be like, hey, is it cool for here? And then like come back out and get Karen. They had obviously been drinking. So he goes in and she says he doesn't come back out. So she just increasingly is getting irritated and then ends up just being like, f John, I'm going back home to his house. Then she wakes up around 4 in the morning, he's still not home. And so she starts panicking. She calls her friend Jen McCabe, who was the one who invited them to that house, and she's like, where's John? Where's John? Like, have you seen him? Nobody has seen him.

[Heather McDonald]

Does that girl. So that girl was just that, that girl was the sister in law of the owner of the house?

[Annie Elise]

Yeah. Her sister is married. Yeah. So the sister in law, was she.

[Heather McDonald]

Able to at that point, did that girl answer the phone? The sister at 4am yeah.

[Annie Elise]

And that's what. So that is where it gets interesting. She never called her sister.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Annie Elise]

When they got back to that house, they went to John's house. Then they came back then.

[Heather McDonald]

And then she gets like two friends, right, to come out there to go.

[Annie Elise]

Carrie and John to go back to the house. And they go back to the house, she sees John she's in the snow. In the snow, jumps out of the car. She's like, that's him, that's him. She goes, tries to start warming him up, getting, like, doing cpr. They're in front of the house, which is Jen's sister, who lives in there. They just found a dead body on the lawn. She doesn't even go up, knock on the door to make sure her sister's okay. Her sister's husband, who's a first responder, a trainer.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so wait.

[Annie Elise]

Doesn't come out.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so wait. Just so I can. So Karen gets her friend Jen, whose sister lives in the house. They hop in the car with Karen first thing in the morning, 4:30 in the morning, 5 in the morning, to go back to the house. And that's where Karen, who is still behind the wheel, Right? She's driving or is somebody else drive?

[Annie Elise]

So at first she drove to Jen's, and then their friend Carrie met up as well. They said, let's go check John's house again. Even though that's where Karen just came from. They're like, maybe you didn't see him. Maybe he came home and he was in another room.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Annie Elise]

So they get back to John's. He's not there. So at that point, they're like, okay, let's go to the Albert family home. Let's go see if we can find him or if we can see anything on the way. Maybe he was hit by a snowplow driver. Maybe something happened. So then they all drive back. Karen's not driving at that point. She's in the backseat. Carrie's the one driving.

[Heather McDonald]

Freaking out.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah, just freaking out. She's like, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? Trying to figure out what had happened.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. So then they get to the house. She sees her boyfriend in the snow. She tries to revive him. They call 911. Yes, but you're. But nobody from. Nobody goes up to the house to ring the bell. Including Karen.

[Annie Elise]

Including Karen. And nobody comes out of the house.

[Heather McDonald]

To see what the hell is going on.

[Annie Elise]

Exactly.

[Heather McDonald]

And they're not. And there's sirens and things, and no one comes out.

[Annie Elise]

It was a blizzard, so the wind was, I guess, like howling and really loud. And so they're saying they didn't really hear everything, but, yeah, paramedics are coming. Karen, you can hear here in the body cam footage, she is just screaming, hysterical. So I personally don't know how you wouldn't be able to hear that right below, you know, a window in your front yard. But Nobody came out. They never went into knocked on the door either. Which is kind of odd. Maybe not for Karen, but certainly for the sister. I know. If it was in front of my sister's house, I'd be like, somebody's dead. I need to go check on my sister, you know?

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

Like, I mean, obviously, or like when you call the police, check on people in the house, is everybody okay?

[Heather McDonald]

You're right. Like, wouldn't you be freaked out if there's a dead body? Could everybody be dead in the house?

[Annie Elise]

Right. And what's so interesting is that when the police arrived and all of the first responders were on the scene, they never secured the crime scene. The police never went and knocked on the door to talk to anybody. And when they started collecting evidence, they collected it in red solo cups and stop and shot bags, like 711 type bags. Like, nothing was secure from the get go. It was just mishandled right from the jump.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so we get to like, then what happens? Why do they think that she did it? Because. Because she says it out, like in a panic. Did I? I know there's like a lot of that, like right in the moment of being like, oh my God, did I back into him somehow? Did I not see him?

[Annie Elise]

Yeah. She was asking, you know, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? She had a cracked tail light, which then she pointed out to her friends. She's like, could I have hit him? Look at my cracked tail light. Come to find out later when reviewing ring camera footage. There's actually footage of her when she's leaving John's house that morning, going to look for him. She reverses and you can see her car hit his car that was parked and hit it with her, the passenger side tail light so hard that his entire wheel starts moving and shaking. So that could have been when she cracked the taillight when she reversed in. Not from hitting him when he was, you know, out front of the house in the snow. But so they find him, he has cuts all over his arm, which we can get to in a minute, are not consistent with being hit by a car. He has a black eye, blunt force trauma on the back of his head, he's bleeding, and they say that he. His ultimate cause of death. I don't think they officially ruled it, but they believe it was the blunt force trauma. And then he died of hypothermia in the snow. So after the. They start investigating everything. They end up arresting her for, I believe the very first arrest. It was just for manslaughter and Then they ended up increasing the charges to second degree murder, manslaughter, and then leaving the scene of a crash that resulted in a death. So she first went to trial last spring.

[Heather McDonald]

Did they ever, at that point, give her a Breathalyzer?

[Annie Elise]

I believe there's some conflicting information. What I had gathered when we first started covering this case about a year ago is that they tested her blood alcohol level, I wanna say 24 hours later, maybe a little bit less than that. And at that point, it was at a 0.08. This is all alleged. Everybody, nobody freak out. But then when they were doing the math of what it would have been at midnight the night before, it would have been like a 0.19 to a 0.21 or something like that, which I kind of.

[Heather McDonald]

I believe all of it from what I've read of how many drinks they had. And I know from my sister, being a criminal defense attorney, that she has had clients that have gotten DUIs the next day, like going to get breakfast and things like that. When you're that drunk, even if you slept and woke up and had a cup of coffee, you could still be kind of drunk.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

So, yeah, I believe she was drunk driving, for sure. But it's like, okay, so then we get to the trial, the first trial.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

And that's where they do put all these people from the party on the stand. And let's get into the juicy stuff that's confusing, but juicy of their relationship cheating. What. What is the thing that. Where these crossover relationships happened with these cops and her and everybody.

[Annie Elise]

So this is where it kind of all starts to fall apart, is in this first trial. Because obviously, at this point now, the phones have been seized. They're doing. They're looking at everything as evidence, and everybody's dirty laundry is on display. So Karen had been texting with another form, another officer, I believe he's a DEA agent. I can't. I can't remember exactly. Brian Higgins. And they had been sending very flirtatious messages back and forth in the days leading up to when they all were at the bar that night, when they were all, you know, having drinks and things like that. And she and John had a little bit of, you know, a. Not a toxic relationship, but they would have spats, they would have issues. They even fought the morning of them all going out and having drinks that night. But then they were fine, and they all met up with friends. So these text messages get released, which shows that Brian Higgins was interested in Karen, that she had exchanged some flirtatious messages with him too, but then ghosted him a few days before the night in question.

[Heather McDonald]

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[Annie Elise]

To my knowledge, yes.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, yeah, continue.

[Annie Elise]

And he was at that house though, that night too, and at the bars, all of that. So she ghosts him, apparently, a few days before, and then they see each other at the bars. And everybody in the footage, the CCTV footage from the bars, everybody looks happy, everybody's getting along. But there are some people out there who theorize that Brian didn't look very happy in the footage and that he kind of looked on edge. So that's where then I think all of the conspiracies start to take flight of what really happened to John? Who could have been responsible? Was he maybe angry when they were all back at the house?

[Heather McDonald]

Question of the flirty texts, to your knowledge, were they like, what Was the guy that passed away, John O'Keefe? Okay, was it like anything about John or was it just like, you're cute too, maybe we could talk. Were there any like, naked photos sent? Like, how. How deep was the flirtation?

[Annie Elise]

No, it wasn't like, no sexting, to my knowledge, from what I had seen. No. Like bashing on John? More of like, oh, yeah, you've caught my eye from the beginning. Or like little things like that. Not innocent, but like not outright little.

[Heather McDonald]

Fishing on both sides.

[Annie Elise]

Exactly, exactly.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. Okay. So then who else.

[Annie Elise]

So then Jen McCabe also comes into the.

[Heather McDonald]

Which is her friend.

[Annie Elise]

This is her friend whose sister lives in the house. Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

And who are the owners of the house?

[Annie Elise]

The Albert family.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

And is Mr. Albert a cop as well?

[Annie Elise]

Brian Albert is a former cop.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Annie Elise]

Yes. And what's interesting is that Jen McCabe had a Google search at 2:27 in the morning that said how long to die in the cold? How was incorrectly spelled. It was H O S, but she Googles this. And then John's body wasn't found until 6am so that of course, when that got brought up in the trial, everybody's like, why would you be googling that?

[Heather McDonald]

And what was her answer?

[Annie Elise]

That she really Googled it at 6 when they all had were at the scene and when they were trying to make sense of what had happened and that Karen had said like, you know, Google, how long does it take to die in the cold? And that the reason it was timestamped at 2:27 is because you know how when you open your phone, there's like old browsers in your Safari or whatever. She's like, I opened a browser from when I was searching something else at 2:27. And it just like triggered that.

[Heather McDonald]

I think that's a pretty. That's something that, if I was in jury, I'd be like, I can't say that that couldn't happen. I would say that that seems somewhat reasonable.

[Annie Elise]

So let me ask you this then.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay?

[Annie Elise]

If that is reasonable, would you ever search that and then delete that search later? No, because I don't even know how to delete the search.

[Heather McDonald]

So she deleted the.

[Annie Elise]

It shows as deleted. I know. And then there were some more searches after that that did happen around.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so what were some more searches?

[Annie Elise]

Just like again, like another one of how long to die in the cold? And some random things like that from.

[Heather McDonald]

Her or from other people from her.

[Annie Elise]

But that all aligned with the right timeline. But then the 227 one is what stuck out. And what's also interesting with that is around that time period of 2:30am There were also two phone calls from, from Brian Higgins to Brian Albert, the homeowner of the house. And when they were questioned about this on the stand, they said they did not talk to each other that night, that they didn't make any phone calls and their excuse was that they butt dialed each other by accident.

[Heather McDonald]

So they're saying we were all at the house and they said we never saw him, right? Yeah, they said he never arrived. And then what did Brian say? Oh, then I went home and then accidentally butt dialed him once I was home and in my bed.

[Annie Elise]

Well, so Brian didn't go home. He went to the police station to start like move some cars because it was the snowplow was going to come or something like that while he's drunk. They. Yeah, and they were all drunk. They all the these cops were drinking and driving. I mean, it's so. It's insane. Okay, so he goes, and I believe he went around 1:30 to the station, give or take, to move these cars. He says that he never talked to anybody on the phone that night. He definitely didn't call Brian Albert yet now. And he even testified to that under oath. Like, I never called anybody since that first trial. There is now footage of him outside of the police station at 1:30 on the phone. And so when the first calls were brought up, they explained it away being like, oh no, it was a butt dial. The homeowner, Brian Albert said like he was being intimate with his wife and that that triggered it. Which is your phone in your pants. Like, I don't understand.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, like the phone was on the bed and he rolled over while boning and then, like, his butt literally did the phone, and then it was called him.

[Annie Elise]

And then the other guy just coincidentally butt dialed him back. And then the phone call connected for 22 seconds.

[Heather McDonald]

Got it.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And then what was the other part I remember about someone getting rid of their phone or their SIM card? And he said, oh, I do that all the time as a DEA agent or something.

[Annie Elise]

So that was Brian Higgins, the same one who had the flirtatious messages, the same one who went to move the cars that night, who butt dialed. They were going to give him formal notice, like, say, I forget what the exact dates were. But if, right now, if I was going to say, Heather, tomorrow you're going to get formal notice from the police department, from, you know, all of us, that you cannot destroy your phone because we're going to need to go through it as evidence. And today, you break the SIM card, you break the phone, you put it in a trash bag, you drive to a military base, and you put it in two different dumpsters. And then you explain it by saying, I'm a DEA agent. I have sensitive stuff on my phone.

[Heather McDonald]

And so. But he did admit to doing it in two different dumpsters and all that stuff. Why do you think he admitted to that then?

[Annie Elise]

I don't know. I mean, maybe he had no other choice at that point. I'm not really sure. And this is where it starts to get really sticky, because there's just so much reasonable doubt in this case, because even if Karen was blackout drunk and hit John, what these people are doing isn't helping themselves in any way. I mean, there's so much shadiness all the way down to, again, the evidence collection, the Google search, the calls, all these things. And then during the first trial, there were experts, crash reconstruction experts that testified that said the wounds on John's body were not consistent with a vehicle. There even were experts who said they looked more like dog bites, dog scratches. The homeowner owned a German shepherd who conveniently was rehomed three months after John's body was found. They also redid their basement flooring. Allegedly, they sold their house undervalue. I mean, there's just so many different things at this point that it seems people are covering up for one reason or another that it certainly makes you ask the question, is she innocent or being framed or did she do this?

[Heather McDonald]

So when everything came and then there was also something about, like, some other thing where there was a part of. Didn't they find, like, a piece of the taillight glass or something in or claimed to have found it in him, I believe there. And they think that was planted or something.

[Annie Elise]

The tail light in general, it's alleged that it was planted because when they first arrived on the scene that morning at 6am they did two searches. They did one when they first arrived, and then they came back later that day and did another search where they used a leaf blower to move the snow and kind of get things around it. And when they did that, this is how much they were drinking to. Right. John had a cocktail glass that they took with them from the bar. And so when he was in the snow, they found clear pieces of the cocktail glass on the snow, which is very difficult to see.

[Sponsor]

Right, right.

[Annie Elise]

But they were able to find that they didn't see any red taillight, no pieces of taillight for two searches. Then Karen's car was brought into the Sally Port for evidence. And this is a whole other thing which I'll go into. But it was brought in later after that, hours later, when they went back out for the third search with the cert team, they found pieces of tail light. So the allegation is, okay, well, how did you not see it for two searches, but you found clear glass and you didn't see any red against the snow.

[Heather McDonald]

So they think once her car was brought in, maybe they took a couple little pieces of the already broken tail light and threw that in the snow or said they got it from the snow.

[Annie Elise]

Yes. And part of the reason for that as well is because there's footage of her car in the Sally Port, which is where they were checking it all for evidence. And they said, you know, you can see right here in this footage, nobody goes near her tail light. Nobody's trying to, like, mess with it. Nobody's shattering it more or taking pieces. It's right here in the footage. But then upon closer look, the footage was completely inverted, mirrored. So it, like, it was as if you were looking on. You were actually looking at the driver's side tail light, not the passenger. And when you look closer, on the opposite side of the car, you could see somebody next to the passenger tail light.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, wow.

[Annie Elise]

It's like there's just so much shadiness.

[Heather McDonald]

So, okay, so the first trial, they go into deliberation, and how quickly do they come back and say, we cannot. It's a mistrial. We need to do this again.

[Annie Elise]

So the jury came back. I can't remember if it was two or three times to the judge saying, like, we cannot agree unanimously. And the judge kept. Judge Bev kept sending them Back saying.

[Heather McDonald]

And what was there a thing to either say manslaughter or second degree or innocent. What was the choices?

[Annie Elise]

So the total charges were second degree murder, manslaughter, and then leaving the scene of a crash.

[Heather McDonald]

Just to remind people, like, second degree is you killed them, but you didn't plan it.

[Annie Elise]

Yes. It wasn't premeditated.

[Heather McDonald]

And then manslaughter is like you were driving and you accidentally hit someone. And then what was the last. Or innocent.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah. Or. And she had the charge of leaving the scene of a crime of a crash that resulted in a death. The problem was, apparently it wasn't communicated to the jury that all of these charges could have individual verdicts. And they all were under the impression it had to be unanimous on all of them. So they kept coming back, but she kept pushing back, saying, you guys have to come with a verdict. Yeah. They finally come back, they're like, we can't. And so it's declared a mistrial. After it was announced that it was a mistrial, jurors started coming forward saying, well, no, we all unanimously agreed that she was not guilty of second degree murder being the highest charge. And one of the other charges, I think it must have been, was it leaving the scene or manslaughter? I can't remember now. But they had said, we agreed that, like, unanimously, she was not. But because it was never announced as a verdict and read into record, technically it doesn't count. And they said they were never clear on the instructions that they could even do that. It wasn't told to them in that way. So everybody, when that came out, was like, there's no way they're going to do a retrial. Then at this point, sure enough, the state announced, though, that they planned to retry her. And that's what is now beginning this week.

[Heather McDonald]

And with this retrial, there's some things that I have seen that the judge is not allowing that I think will hurt Karen's case. Like, isn't it that they can't bring up all these people, what do you know where we are?

[Annie Elise]

Yeah. There's been some conversation about not allowing the ARCA experts, the reconstruction team, back their testimony back in. But as of what I heard most recently, it looks like they are going to be allowed in. But she needs to meet with them sidebar first and see what their report was. Yeah. Before she allows it in. But because there was like, money exchange, the state is saying that they've now, like, colluded and that they have more of a personal relationship and so they're trying to pull the ex. Those experts out. They also have said that there can't. They can't bring in the third party defense during opening statements, which they did. They already had opening statements and the.

[Heather McDonald]

Third party defense is somebody else. Somebody in the house.

[Annie Elise]

Yes, somebody else.

[Heather McDonald]

So now they're saying they will. They can't. Or they will bring that up.

[Annie Elise]

They can bring it up during the trial itself, but not during opening statements, which we already had opening statements on Tuesday, and they obviously didn't bring that up.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay, so that's not that bad.

[Annie Elise]

No.

[Heather McDonald]

And I mean, how do they find a jury that isn't aware of this from the media already?

[Annie Elise]

It took them a lot of time to get the jury, I think over about two weeks to finally seat the full jury. And I mean, out front of that courthouse, there are hundreds of people every single day with signs, shirts saying, free Karen Reid. She didn't do this. Or certainly there's not enough evidence to convict her. So much so that the judge had to issue a 200 foot buffer zone from the courthouse because it was becoming such a circus out there.

[Heather McDonald]

And so there was, Wasn't there recently a show or documentary and she was interviewed in that.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah. Body in the snow.

[Heather McDonald]

And what was your opinion of that? Was that good for her defense or what do you think?

[Annie Elise]

I personally don't think that it. I don't, I don't think it hurt her in any way. I think a lot of people were like, why would she do this when she still is gonna be going on trial? Like, especially because she has a little bit of a bold, abrasive personality. But I think it kind of just, to me at least showed her conviction in the fact of her saying, like, I didn't do this. Let me lay it all out for you. Let me walk you through it. And I think they did a really good job showing that. And clearly so. Because now it's like taken social media by storm and everybody is following this case and interested in what's going on. And even when I do polls on my podcast and on YouTube, right now it's at like 95% think that she's innocent. So I don't know what's going to happen. It's. But it's scheduled to go on for eight weeks.

[Heather McDonald]

And if she was convicted of, let's just say the least thing, the manslaughter, do you know what she would be looking at? What kind of time?

[Annie Elise]

I don't know the exact time, I would imagine. I mean, maybe a few years I don't know what the exact time was.

[Heather McDonald]

She ever presented with like, okay, you can plea to this and we don't have to go to trial. And she was like, fuck, no.

[Annie Elise]

Not to my knowledge.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, yeah, because it's, I think they, you know, there's people in the town that have written, you know, and been like, yeah, this is like a problem with, you know, corrupt and you know, something went down. Let's take it to the grave. Let's, you know. So where does it leave with the two friends that were originally in the car, one being the friend of the, of the homeowner. Does she not talk to those girls anymore? Like, where is that?

[Annie Elise]

Well, Karen doesn't talk to any of them, but they all are still friendly with each other. One of them, Carrie, was actually testifying today and was on the stand. But another piece that I didn't even.

[Heather McDonald]

Bring in for defense or prosecution or for the prosecution.

[Annie Elise]

And then on cross. Okay, but one of the things that's so major in this case too is the lead investigator of the case, Michael Proctor, he was a state trooper. He was the lead investigator. He has since been fired for misconduct during this investigation. Not during anything else, but during the Karen Reed case. His text messages were pulled too, where he called her a C next Tuesday, said she should off herself, said he was looking for nudes in her phone or like, didn't come across any nudes yet and like, just fully disgraced. And so he was. He hadn't been fired during the first trial. Since that first trial, he now has been fired. So that's what the defense brought up in opening statements too. They're like, you know, the state's not even mentioning Michael Proctor. He was their lead investigator, the state trooper. He's not even, he's not even a part of the force anymore because of how poorly he handled this particular investigation and the colluding and the COVID up and everything that went in with it. And so I think that's going to be a huge win for her this go around because once the jury hears that they're like, the lead investigator got fired for misconduct on this case.

[Heather McDonald]

This episode of Juicy Scoop is brought to you by Legacy Box. You guys know that I recently moved and I found old videos, like the first time I did stand up, lots of great photos of course. And I got Legacy Box and it made it so easy. And I want to share with you how simple it is. All I did was put those items in the legacy box, send it out. It's so affordable. They've thought of everything and just to preserve your past. It's great. Your memories should be instantly accessible, not hidden away in an outdated format. Or maybe in your basement where there could be like a flood or God forbid, a fire and gone forever. Legacy Box Cloud with it you can stream, organize and share your digitized videos and photos. It's so simple, it's like magic. Send in the Legacy Box filled with all your old tapes, camcorder tapes, pictures and the team professionally digitizes everything by hand in the USA and you'll get it all back on the cloud plus your originals. Check Protecting your memories off the spring cleaning to do list with Legacy Box, visit legacybox.comsuy to shop their $9 tape sale and get 90 days free access to Legacy Box Cloud. That's legacybox.com to unlock this incredible offer. Sister Wives is back at last. And while the Browns have gone their own separate ways, that doesn't mean that they're done with each other. Mary and Janelle are looking for love and land. But first, form an unlikely alliance. Janelle is also hanging with her bestie Christine, who's off living in newly married bliss. And Cody and Robin are all that's left out there on Coyote Pass, wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship? And after all the joy and the drama, they hit the tell all hot seat and must answer the questions we've been begging to know. And maybe just serving up some spicy answers of their own. Has Cody Zenned out? Is Robyn owning her moment? Have Mary and Janelle finally found a special someone? And you know Christine isn't going to hold anything back. You have got to catch Sister Wives all new Sunday at 10 on TLC Sister wise all new Sunday at 10 on TLC I know getting your hands on Ozempic or wegovy might be difficult. You don't know where to start and it can be a big hassle. Maybe you're negotiating with your insurance provider. Will they cover it? Where do I go for it? That's what I love about RO. This is how RO works. RO's insurance checker lets you know if you're covered for GLP1s and that part is free. ROE can help you understand if GLPs like Ozempic or Wegovy are right for you and your goals. But that's just the beginning. If you are eligible for GLP1s and want to see if you're covered, all you have to do is submit your insurance card and RO will take care of the rest. No paperwork, no negotiating, no Waiting on hold. Ro's Free Insurance checker will send you a comprehensive report of your coverage details so that you can make a decision that's right for you, your goals and your plan budget. Go to Ro Co JuicyScoop for your free insurance check. That's R O Co Juicy Scoop to see if your insurance covers GLP1s for free. Go to Roe Co Safety for black box warning and full safety information about GLP1 medications. Getting back to the little bit of flirting with this guy, from what I remember, which intrigued me was it sounds like he might have had some infidelity. The victim, and then. So maybe this was her, you know, kind of getting back at him. There was also some talk of, you know, she was a professor, he was a cop. So there's like, that little weird, like, Boston townie kind of a thing where, like, she. She wouldn't necessarily be in this group of, like, cops. So maybe she was slightly the outsider. Have you heard any of that?

[Annie Elise]

I haven't heard much of that, but I could definitely see that. And they did have a fight on a vacation that they went on around. I believe it was a New Year's Eve vacation prior to this happening. So, like, a month before, a little less than a month. So I. And she was getting jealous on this vacation, so I could see where maybe she was trying to, like, poke the bear a little bit or, like, see what her options were. But.

[Heather McDonald]

Or just. Yeah, just see if, like, you know.

[Annie Elise]

What attention she can get.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, whatever. So now with all that being said. What. You know, I. I'm gonna tell you what my theory is.

[Annie Elise]

Okay.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. Because there's a few. There's. He goes in and starts talking, whatever. And, you know. Yeah. She's, like, pissed. Like, hello, I'm your girlfriend. Sitting out here in the fucking cold. Like, I don't. You know, are we really invited to this party? One of those things, like, come back to the house. Then you get to, like, the third location, and you're like, do we want to keep going? Just go in and see. And so enough time goes by, or maybe not much time at all, and she just starts to go, oh, fuck. I don't even want to go in there. He's not even coming out and checking on me. So it could. I think she could have maybe only waited, like, three minutes, you know, and so then there's a couple things that could happen. Either he did get in an argument with somebody, you know, and get hit and whatever, and die and they threw him out there, or he may have been Hit and stumbled out there to see if she was still there and then saw the car wasn't there and slipped and hit his head on the snow and didn't get up. And the people in the house didn't know that he was dead. Didn't cover it up. The other part is, was he also attacked by the dog and that's why he had the marks on his hand and again then walked out to see, like where she was or whatever.

[Annie Elise]

I will say one of the biggest theories that I have seen out there from everybody who's been following this case, and it's all alleged, but it's out there, is that Colin Albert, the nephew of the homeowner, was at that house.

[Heather McDonald]

And that how old is he?

[Annie Elise]

Oh, gosh, roughly, I think early 30s, maybe late 20s. No, not a kid, but maybe a little younger. And so I've heard that he had issues with John for reasons which I will not get into, just because again, it's all alleged.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, what is it just alleged issues?

[Annie Elise]

That he's a drug dealer and that John was kind of onto his. Onto that.

[Heather McDonald]

And then the nephew might have been selling drugs that John might have known.

[Annie Elise]

And so that when they got. When John got to that house that Colin didn't know that he was coming over. So then that was an altercation when he saw him. And the reason people suspect that too is because Colin had all of these scrapes and blood all over his knuckles. And he says that it's from falling in the ice or on the ice rather. So the defense was gonna bring Colin's name up as a third party defense. But then the judge ruled that there wasn't. There was insufficient evidence to name him, you know, particular, specifically him as a third party defense. But a lot of people believe that he had some involvement. And then because he is a little bit on the younger side and he's the nephew that all of these people are trying to protect another cop's family.

[Heather McDonald]

Member with the dog scratches and bites or whatever, Couldn't they have, can't they figure it out if that's canine teeth or paw scratches versus a woman's scratch?

[Annie Elise]

So they did have an expert from the defense who said that it was consistent with claw marks and dog bites. They tested the dog bites and it did not show dog DNA, but it did show pig DNA, which was kind of like, why the hell would this guy have pig DNA on him? And so while it's unclear why a lot of people are like, oh, well, think of like the pig ears that you give to A German shepherd or like treats and things like that.

[Heather McDonald]

True.

[Annie Elise]

But then the dog was rehomed. So any further testing or like impressions or anything like that?

[Heather McDonald]

But can't they find the dog?

[Annie Elise]

I don't. I don't know how you maybe. I don't know. I don't know where he got rehomed or she decided.

[Heather McDonald]

Or maybe the. Even the defense was like, let's just throw it out there, but. Because if it doesn't match, it's enough reasonable doubt. Right? If it doesn't match, then what do we do if it doesn't match? And that's maybe not how we want to. Do you have any idea how she's paying for this defense?

[Annie Elise]

They definitely. They've started raising a lot of money. I believe most of her team is working pro bono at this point, but they do have a defense fund, which, when I saw yesterday, it was like over 800 grand at this point.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow. So, you know, the other thing is it still is possible. I mean, it still is possible. Or do you think it's not possible that she accidentally backed up, like, he came out, she was like, oh, fuck this. Didn't see him come out, backed up, hit him and then left?

[Annie Elise]

I think it's definitely possible.

[Heather McDonald]

Could it be possible that he went in there, had this altercation with a fucking crazy dog and nobody else and was like. Went. Was like, fuck it, I'm not staying here. What the fuck? Take care of your dog next time. Walked out. And just as he was walking out, she had lost her patience and still hit him.

[Annie Elise]

Maybe. But I guess my hang up with that is that it would make sense because of how much she had been drinking and to not remember it. But with the injuries not being consistent with being hit by a vehicle, I don't know how you would explain, like, the punched eye. Yeah, it's like the black eye, the blunt force trauma on the back of his head, the stuff on his arm not being the blunt horse trauma on.

[Heather McDonald]

The back of the head, I do think could be consistent with being hit and going fast down on the back of her ice or flying or. Yeah. Or a driveway or whatever. And the black eye. And then sometimes if. I mean, when I fainted on stage, like within 24 hours, I had two black eyes. And it. I was like, oh, my. Like, why do I have black eyes? I didn't fall on my face. And they said, when you hit your head really hard, it can happen. So sometimes like, you, you know, or like I was like, oh, I wonder, you know? So then I was like, that kind of makes sense. But if there was. Where there two were there one, I think, too.

[Annie Elise]

I mean, when I had first heard about this case, in my mind, I was like, well, what if she had dropped him off and he was, like, bending over to, like, grab. So he dropped something and he was bending something, bending over, and, like, she hit him while he was bent over and that's what hit his head, or, like, that's why there wasn't anything to his body here, because the impact was on his head. Possibly. But I don't know. I think there's a lot of possibilities, but I think too much reasonable doubt.

[Heather McDonald]

As a juror, I would be like, there's just not enough for me to put this girl away.

[Annie Elise]

Exactly. And there's just.

[Heather McDonald]

There's just too. And you. It's beyond a reasonable doubt. And there's so much doubt.

[Annie Elise]

There's so much doubt.

[Heather McDonald]

I think I would come back with just driving under the influence. Because she basically admitted to that.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, I don't know.

[Annie Elise]

Can you. I guess you can charge somebody after the fact with that, wouldn't you be. I don't know.

[Heather McDonald]

I don't know. Maybe you can at that point. I mean, she's obviously suffered enough. She never. She always was out on bail. It wasn't like she had to, like, stay in jail during this time. Right.

[Annie Elise]

No.

[Heather McDonald]

I do think. I do think she kind of likes the limelight, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Annie Elise]

I think so, too. I think that she's gained so much support from the public that she does like that. And I think she likes. She likes her voice being heard. I think the defense teams like that as well.

[Heather McDonald]

How soon. If she gets off that she starts a podcast? I think it's about a 99% chance.

[Annie Elise]

You know what she actually is already doing. No, I'm just kidding.

[Heather McDonald]

Maybe her cause could be Gypsy Rose.

[Annie Elise]

Oh, my God.

[Heather McDonald]

Who else?

[Annie Elise]

Definitely a podcast or, like, a TV special. Something. I mean, there's already TV specials in the park.

[Heather McDonald]

What about the Real Housewives of Boston?

[Annie Elise]

That would be a good one.

[Heather McDonald]

Could she be on that?

[Annie Elise]

I think. Well, I mean, she's definitely. If she gets out of this, I.

[Heather McDonald]

Have a pretty good.

[Annie Elise]

She's gonna be, like, the leper in Boston. Like, no. Every. Because all of Boston's police force is, like, against her.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, but what about all these people that are for her?

[Annie Elise]

Yeah. I don't.

[Heather McDonald]

This is what they're gonna do. They're gonna cast Real Housewives of Boston. She's gonna be on it. And then there's also gonna be a woman who's. It won't be her current husband, but her ex husband was a cop. And so they kind of form an alliance. But then there's another woman that, you know, is an attorney, and she's like, you know, but now she wasn't. Or she's an attorney, but now she's like, it's a lot easier being an influencer, so I'm gonna be an influencer. But she says, little snide remarks about legal things, and we're off to the races. Yeah, you're welcome, Andy Cohen.

[Annie Elise]

I also like it for a Lifetime movie.

[Heather McDonald]

For a movie. Yeah. But if you come on a.

[Annie Elise]

We need a Boston Real Housewives franchise for sure. Get rid of New York, go to.

[Heather McDonald]

Boston, and there you go. Could be real good. Well, okay, so the trial just started. Do we have any idea how long? Any prediction of, like, how many days this might be or anything?

[Annie Elise]

It's slated to be about eight weeks.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, wow.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. God. I mean, it's pretty terrifying because traditionally, in my experience, and my knowledge is a mistrial reach, like another second trial seems to benefit the prosecution.

[Annie Elise]

It does. Statistically, if it goes to second trial, it benefits the prosecution. But I will say opening statements is usually what impacts the jury the most. And the opening statements this week, the defense crushed it. And the state was like, so boring. They did it from, like a paramedic's point of view. It was just not engaging, not compelling. And then the defense came out swinging to where, if I was on the jury hearing those opening statements, what was that?

[Heather McDonald]

What was the. In a nutshell, what was the defense.

[Annie Elise]

Opening statement pointing out all of the inconsistencies, the Google search, the phone being destroyed, Michael Proctor being dismissed and fired for the misconduct, all of these different things. The experts who had testified that it wasn't a collision that caused the injuries. I mean, just everything in a nutshell summarized almost like the real. That you saw on my Instagram. And they just came out swinging. And it was such a rock solid opening statement.

[Heather McDonald]

Great. Do you think that it would be a different fascination if she wasn't an attractive brunette? If she wasn't attractive, I think it.

[Annie Elise]

Would still be fascinating because from what I like, I feel like a lot of the public doesn't like her because of her attitude.

[Heather McDonald]

That's what I'm saying. It can be both. It can be both. Like, I've asked my sister, you know, how much goes into telling your client what to wear or how much makeup to wear. You Know, and one thing she specifically said, like. Yeah, like big blown up lips and stuff like that. It's not good.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah, well, yeah, remember like not good. Like remember Jodi Arias and she put on like the little glasses and she tried to like sex herself down a lot.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. And then. Yeah. Or, you know, the Menendez brothers, you know, second trial or something. Sweaters. Yeah. Doing the sweater or. No, I think the first trial they did the sweaters and the second trial they didn't or something because they were like, you're too old for the sweaters. But like, yeah, you wanted them, you wanted to feel sorry for them. I mean it all makes sense. But like downplaying your looks or putting someone in a suit that's, you know, a gang member or whatever, it's all goes with. Appears like she's, you know, just staying consistent to like her style and look.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah. She's in blazers, like sheath dresses. Yeah. Just buttoned up and professional.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. And. But it's not like she's. Do you think there's any like, is. I wonder if anyone's giving her her clothes.

[Annie Elise]

Maybe. I haven't seen anything, but I'm sure.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, if I like work for theory or something, I'd be like, okay, tag me. Yeah. Or like, you know, why not? Like, I mean, you're gonna get a lot more out of that than just sending it to some, you know, little twat on tick tock that's gonna dance around in it like, you know what I mean? Like, this is a great looking blazer that you know, you can get for $82 or whatever market to the millennials.

[Annie Elise]

And the Gen Xers. I get it.

[Heather McDonald]

Moving on to another crime. Give us the latest. This says judge permits bushy eyebrow testimony in the Idaho quadruple murder trial. Where are we with the horrible quadruple murder trial of the Idaho college students that were stabbed and butchered to death by possibly this guy Brian Bryan Kohberger.

[Annie Elise]

So the trial is scheduled to start in August of this year. Right. Now they had had a gag order on the case, but now with all these pre trial motions being filed, we're starting to get a little bit of a glimpse into what evidence they have. What's happened. So it started a few weeks ago with the 911 call finally being released, which everybody of course had given the roommates ship for because they waited, what was it, seven hours to call 91 1. So we hear that call, we also started.

[Heather McDonald]

What is your understanding of that call? Because, I mean, I remember when it went down And I remember I was at a party with a mom whose daughter was friends with one of the girls. One of the girl. The girl that. One of the two girls that survived. And you know how much they were going through and how horrible it was. And I was like, what was it? And I remember back then it was like they, you know, they heard something and then just like hoped that it wasn't anything big deal and went to bed and was drunk and didn't want to be nosy or interrupt or whatever. And then. So then I was always confused with. They were too scared to go upstairs. So they called a guy that lived across the street and it was he like, what was that 911 call? Explain what now your understanding is.

[Annie Elise]

So they kind of. They were all together. It was the two surviving roommates and then the guy, Hunter. And I don't know if he lived across the street, where exactly he lived, but he did come over. And so the 911 call is pretty chaotic when you listen because they're passing the phone around to each other. They're obviously are terrified as they're like realizing what's happening. But you. The way it's laid out. And Kaylee's father has even spoken out on this after the fact. Kaylee's one of the victims that they did. The girls weren't going into any of the rooms and seeing what happened. And there's a part in the call in which you can hear Hunter where it sounds like he opens the door. And finally, because one of the bodies was against the door for Zanna and Ithan in that room and that he sees what happened and you can hear his voice trembling and him yelling at the girls, get out. Get out of here. Because he's does. He's trying to shield them. He doesn't want them to see it. So you hear the call where they're like, we're trying to figure out what's going on. She's not breathing. She's passed out. But there's still some confusion as. Did they not see any blood? Did they. Weren't they not getting into the room? How did they know she was passed out? Were they trying to get in and they could only see maybe like a crack through it? Or is it. Was it because they were banging and like she wasn't coming, like coming to the door? And so they were assuming she was passed out because they haven't testified yet. We don't know all of that information. So Everybody's ripping this 911 call apart, trying to say how Would they not smell the blood? How would they not see any blood? Why would they have waited that long to call? But in my opinion, after hearing a lot of 911 calls, you can hear the sheer terror in their voices when.

[Heather McDonald]

They were calling each other because they're like, I saw something that's freaky.

[Annie Elise]

They were texting each other.

[Heather McDonald]

Texting. Do you think it was just, you know, they were drunk too and they were like, this is weird, this is freaky. And then just passed out, fell asleep and then didn't wake up till 10.

[Annie Elise]

Well, they did wake up earlier because now their phone activity has been released and they woke up as early as 7am and they were on Instagram, on Snapchat, calling their, like, what a phone call out to a parent? Like, nothing major, but definitely phone activity. My just going back to my early 20s, I think they were probably out wasted that night. They come home, they did text each other that they saw someone and they were like, it's. I'm freaked out. It looked like he was wearing some sort of ski mask or something like that. But then again, they had so many people coming in and out of that house at any given moment. So I could see where if you're wasted, you're like, like trying to make sense of it and almost being like, I'm not going to call the police or I'm not going to forget. Like, they text, they tried calling, I believe the surviving roommates. They didn't answer. But like, then just being like, I'm probably overreacting. I'm just drunk, like, I'm gonna pass out or I'm gonna go to bed. Then when they wake up in the morning, whether they're still a little high or drunk or whatever it is, or hungover, that you're just, you know, rotting in bed, you're sitting there going on social media, like checking your DMs, looking at your SNAP history, not thinking, like, being like, oh, I overreacted last night. Not thinking I need to get out there and check what's going on. But then when they finally wake up and start moving out and like going into the house, they realize that something's wrong. They bring the friend over.

[Heather McDonald]

So quiet up there. They're probably yelling, hello. They're probably called them. They're probably like, hello, hello. And then they invite the guy over.

[Annie Elise]

Yep.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Annie Elise]

Which there's this whole group now, I will say in the past probably 14 months, I feel like everybody was pretty much in the camp. Although he hasn't gone to trial and it's all alleged that Bryan Coburger was the guy. Over the past 14 months there has been a significant shift where there's this whole group of people out there, they now they call themselves or they've been dubbed the pro burgers because of his last name, where they believe he's innocent, that he's being framed by law enforcement, that it goes deeper into like drugs and this and that because some of the victims families were involved with drugs and things like that. And so I don't put much weight into those theories, especially now given that his Amazon history has been released.

[Heather McDonald]

And what is that about?

[Annie Elise]

It shows that he bought a KA Bar knife, that he bought a knife sharpener, that he bought the sheath that they were delivered to under his name. Delivered to him but at his parents house in Pennsylvania. But that was you know, months and months before the murders happened. Then his browser history allegedly shows that after the murders he went back to those listings maybe to repurchase them because he realized he lost the sheath or, or to see if like it was going to be in his history. I think there was even recently it came out that it was that he had tried to delete some of the purchase history as well, which I've never deleted a purchase in my Amazon history ever. So documents also show that he, his phone pinged on the towers near the house in the months leading up to the crimes in like late night hours as though he was stalking and casing it. So a lot of things in my opinion that point to this being the guy, but there are a lot of people out there now who say he's innocent. And I think they're kind of further bolstering that theory based on the questionable activity from the surviving roommates. The delay in the 911 call, which horrible.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, you know, that's one thing that always being a true crime fanatic is, you know, when they suspect the husband, when they suspect the wife and you know, you get this cop and it was like it was a small town, whatever and the cop's like 30 and he's like, I thought the behavior was strange. I'm like really? How many murders, how many cases have you been on where a woman slipped or drowned in the bathtub and the husband wasn't hysterically crying? Like what are you comparing it to? Who's to say how you're supposed to act when your dog dies, when your grandma who's 100 dies versus my wife died, but I have kids in the house and I'm just, it hasn't even hit me yet, like all those things. And there's been so many times where like, you know, a mom was. There was a famous case of a mom. They thought that she killed her kids on a couch, stabbed them, and she said someone must have come in and stabbed them. And I don't know, you know, she's where it is. But there was, you know, she was always claimed her innocence and when it was the kids birthdays, she went to their graves with somebody and she sprayed Silly spray. Oh, Darlie, Darlie. And was like laughing and that clip was all over the news being like, she's laughing and having fun and it's like, well, her kids are dead. They loved Silly String. That was. She went to their grave. You know, had they been cremated then she wouldn't have had that moment if. And then someone would have been like, why would you cremate? Like, it's just all those kind of things. So it's like I, you know, and to think that these girls, like when I heard about the girls and I believe like one did, maybe you don't know, did they both leave the school? I would assume. I mean, how could you stay at the school? How could you.

[Annie Elise]

I think there's just so much PTSD and survivors.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes. I mean, imagine like how you're supposed to deal with this. I mean, I mean, there's survivor survivor guilt and. And you know, people that. That were in the sorority house of Ted Bundy that like, like lived or was next door and weren't attacked. Like the fact that it's just maybe they didn't live, I don't know. But I know there's people that were there and it's just. Yeah, you can't. That part sucks. And the thing about the Ted Bundy sorority victim, that maybe they were in the house and lived, they didn't have to open their Facebook and see that there's a new group forming. Like, they didn't have to see all this stuff and just be scrolling and see us possibly talking about it or whatever. And that part I just think is like horrible. Now, what is this bushy eyebrow thing?

[Annie Elise]

So Dylan, one of the surviving roommates, the one who saw him in the hallway that night, said that all she. To her recollection when she was giving her statement, all she could recall seeing was bushy eyebrows. That was her term. So now they were trying to get that stricken so that they could defense. Yes. And they're allowing it because it's what she saw. It was her testimony. And what's so interesting too is he took A selfie. What was it? At 10:31 in the morning after the murders.

[Heather McDonald]

So Brian did.

[Annie Elise]

Yes, Brian did. Where he's kind of. He's in front of a shower curtain in his bathroom. He's kind of like smirking, giving a thumbs up and people are wondering like, is this like a proud moment? Why was he taking this selfie? Did he, did he have like, was he done cleaning up what had happened? So they're saying that they. The importance of that selfie needs to be admitted as well because his eyebrows in the selfie look bushy, which then ties back to what Dylan had said. Whereas now of course, he's probably more groomed and trimmed and making sure he doesn't have.

[Heather McDonald]

Do you know if they have collected any like hair that is his or anything?

[Annie Elise]

They just have the touch DNA that was on the button of the sheath. There hasn't been anything else released. The state feels very confident in their case, so I would imagine we will find out more. But as of right now, it's only that piece of touchdown.

[Heather McDonald]

And where do his parents stand? Because I know he was in the car with his dad when they pulled him over and arrested him, right?

[Annie Elise]

No, that was, that was. They were going on a cross country trip back to Pennsylvania and they got stopped for a traffic violation.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, and they had that cam footage, but they didn't know it was him yet. Right.

[Annie Elise]

Oh, but then they started watching the parents house while he was there in Pennsylvania and that's when he was throwing things away in the neighbor's bins, putting things into Ziploc bags, wearing gloves, detailing the car.

[Heather McDonald]

Like so that's the whole time when we were like, who did it? Who did it? Who did it? And they were like, you know, these cops don't know. These are Keystone Cops. Who are. They don't know what they're doing. That's another thing. I think people don't realize that they have to keep their cards close to them. They can't share all this stuff because there's so many sleuths, there's so many, you know, content creators, real reporters, people that are doing their own reporting, which I love too, but that can screw up that investigation. So they were onto him pretty quickly, weren't they?

[Annie Elise]

I think it was within a few weeks after the murders. Yeah, they started figuring things out and they had pulled different traffic cams and things like that and started getting all.

[Heather McDonald]

The white fuck it all together. Yeah. And so we don't know are where his parents stand.

[Annie Elise]

Are they, they're, they're in his corner.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, they are, they are. Are they paying for the defense?

[Annie Elise]

I don't know. I think I want to say that she's a public defender. If I'm not mistaken, I'm. I could be wrong. I'd have to double check on that. Ann Taylor. But what's interesting is they're supportive of him. They want to be there at the trial. And one of the hearings and motions that's been filed recently has been because the state is listing his parents on the witness list, which would then mean that they can't sit through the trial until they go and test that their testimony won't be tainted in any way. And so that they, you know, just to keep it pure. So now the judge has ruled. Okay, you can have them on the witness list, but you need to put them, like earlier at the trial so that then they can be there for support of Brian. For the balance or for the majority of it.

[Heather McDonald]

What I always think is so crazy that, you know, I've asked about it. I don't know that anybody else has really asked about it, but when I had Kim Goldman, sister of Ron Goldman, I said, you know, I've never really interviewed someone that's been in such, like a high profile trial for so long. I'm like, do you ever find yourself in the bathroom with, like, O.J. s daughter? And she's like, yes.

[Annie Elise]

Oh, my gosh.

[Heather McDonald]

Like, it just. That's what I can't imagine. Like, they're at this courthouse. Like his parents, his mom might be in the ladies room with one of the victims mothers or even the surviving roommate. Right?

[Annie Elise]

Yep. I know it's weird to think about.

[Heather McDonald]

It's just so. Ugh. So he's saying I'm innocent.

[Annie Elise]

He's saying he's innocent. They've also now requested that the words sociopath and psychopath not be used during the trial, which because it's technically a medical diagnosis, they did agree to that. So they said he can be referred to as a murderer because that's what he's been charged with. But they can't use the other terms. They also have. What else is going on with that? They are bringing in his autism diagnosis. The defense is bringing it in to explain social behavior, why he's odd.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I think that's a good. I would use everything, too.

[Annie Elise]

I think they're using everything they possibly can.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Socially awkward and this and that and strange or being obsessed or about one thing or another, just to put any kind of doubt. But it sounds like the physical evidence is what's going to seal the deal.

[Annie Elise]

But the DNA is the biggest piece of actual physical evidence that they have. Everything else is pretty circumstantial. However, it's a lot of stuff that is circumstantial, like the phone pings the car, some. Like, one of the things too that people thought early on was that there was a particular target in the house. That was my personal opinion. It still is to this day. I think that one of the girls upstairs was the target, which.

[Heather McDonald]

And wasn't that the girl, like, wasn't there. She worked at a Greek restaurant and he also frequented the Greek restaurant.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah. So there was speculation that that's how he first was, you know, became fixated or saw her and was exposed to her. Then there was talk of him following her on Instagram and things like that. But now experts have said that they've gone through all the digital and forensic information that there's no digital connection to him or any of the victims. Which that, of course, doesn't mean anything. Right. Usually good serial killers or murderers in general wouldn't have a connection. They would pick a random target in a lot of cases. So I don't think that that necessarily means anything, but they have scraped Venmo history, social media, any sort of digital footprint where he could have had any connection to them, and they're saying that there is no known connection.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. But I do think that helps the defense because I think people always want to know why.

[Annie Elise]

Right. The motive.

[Heather McDonald]

You know, if. If they believe that a man killed his wife, it's because he had a girlfriend that he wanted to live with. She killed her husband because there was a two million dollar insurance, like people need, like the defense needs a reason why. And just to say, oh, he was fascinated with, you know, murder and killing. And I mean, look at us.

[Annie Elise]

I know.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, like, I mean, we're fascinated with it. Does it mean that we're going to try it? Like, I mean, no, I'm just, I, you know, I like to always just kind of think, like, well, you know.

[Annie Elise]

I think the argument is that because he was a criminology student that he studied it, he did that big thesis with convicted murderers, that he wanted to see if he could get away with it. And my belief is that he went into that house with the intention of killing one person, was surprised that the friend was in bed.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

Came downstairs.

[Heather McDonald]

I do too. She had her friend spend the night.

[Annie Elise]

Yep. And she didn't. In bed with her. He goes downstairs. He didn't expect anybody else to be awake. She Zanna was still awake. She was active on TikTok. She had ordered doordash. I think that spooked him. He had. He was kind of then doing this like frenzy killing. And this is just my opinion.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Annie Elise]

You know.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Annie Elise]

But I don't think he went into that if it was him. I don't think he went into that house expecting to kill four people that night.

[Heather McDonald]

So do you think he did know her then? I think targeted her.

[Annie Elise]

I think that maybe there's no digital connection, but I think that. I believe he was targeting Maddie.

[Heather McDonald]

It was not a random thing because he was. If you believe that it's him in the car, the car was. Hadn't the car come around prior to that night?

[Annie Elise]

Yeah, for like in the couple of months leading up to the murders, it had gone around, I think, 23 times in total. It had pinged in the area between the hours of like 10 and 1 or something like that. And then that the morning of the murders, it came in, kind of went in through the back roads and that, like they had been in that area before.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, also, common defense in this is always gonna be, you know, this town needed to find someone because otherwise they are going to be walking on eggshells and scared. And so they, you know, their. Their marching orders were to find somebody. I believe he did it as well. Like, I feel like that, you know, but those are all the things that we're probably going to hear from the defense.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow. Okay. Lori Vallow, world's worst mother. So she was representing herself in the crime of her husband, who was shot and killed when he came to pick up his children for an exchange. So it was her ex husband and he was shot and killed by the brother who claimed that he had hit him with a baseball bat, though there was like barely a scratch on his head. And a baseball bat would have probably, possibly killed you. So she is in Arizona and decides, because that's where the crime was, she's gonna represent herself. Which when I talked about this briefly before, I was like, you know what? I kind of can't blame her.

[Annie Elise]

No. It's like a field trip, right?

[Heather McDonald]

And it's like you're already. She's sentenced to life. Right. So fine.

[Annie Elise]

What do you have to lose?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And so what did. So I. She. She did. They did reach a verdict.

[Annie Elise]

Yes.

[Heather McDonald]

How. How short was the deliberation?

[Annie Elise]

I think three hours. And it's also because they had like a mandated lunch break, I think. So I think it was like they. It was pretty quick. I don't think there was a doubt in anybody's mind that she was guilty.

[Heather McDonald]

And so what did you gather from this? I mean, I didn't really watch it, but people were like, heather, you have to watch it. It's like she's playing a lawyer. The questions are so bizarre.

[Annie Elise]

She is such a looney tune. Like watching it, it's. It would be comical if it wasn't so offensive. Right. But yeah, when one of the women who Charles, her former husband had gone on a date with, when she took the stand, Lori was crossing her cross, examining her, asking her questions like, so you guys were out on a date and just talking about me the whole time. This, that, like she was more concerned, concerned with things like that. Even when a family member took the stand, she's like, well, you remember all of the green enchiladas that I made for all the family gatherings. Like it's just so detached from reality of what's happening. And she got, she, you know, had her lawyer speak. Like she was, knew some vocabulary to throw out there, but she was not good. Didn't and didn't even do a closing argument.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, you know, obviously it's never a good idea. Like I was even thinking like, will Brian from Idaho Murder Crime, the suspect, will he take the stand? And it always seems like they rarely ever want their client to take the stand because they could cross examine and everything. But I always think as a juror or whatever, or I always think if I was Karen Reed, if I was. But the thing about the Karen Reed case is like, because there was this fogginess, like, okay, like let's say my husband, I woke up and my husband was dead next to me or whatever. And they were like, Heather poisoned him or something. Who knows? And I know I didn't, I know I didn't. I know we were getting along like this is. And I was on trial, I would, I would want to go on, stand on the stand and be like, I did not do this. I want to shout it from the rooftops. Of course you gotta believe your attorneys to say it might be better that you don't.

[Annie Elise]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

But I always think that's like such a, a weird thing.

[Annie Elise]

Because if you, if you have conviction in it, why not take the stand? I think it's because if there's a very talented opposing attorney, it's like they can just, they can disserate you. Yeah. And it can go real.

[Heather McDonald]

And then also you can. Because you're so emphatic, you can look insensitive or your tears could be fake, or there's all these things you can also. Someone could also pick apart. But with her, I mean, this story was just insanity. So I could see why she was like, but did she ever take the stand on herself?

[Annie Elise]

She didn't. And she doubled down. She still is doubling down with her story that she didn't do it. In the most recent Dateline, any interview, she tried to blame JJ's death on Tyler, her daughter, and she's just sick.

[Heather McDonald]

She said that maybe.

[Annie Elise]

She said Tyler did it.

[Heather McDonald]

She did, yeah. To the little boy.

[Annie Elise]

Which is like, just let your daughter rest in peace. Like, now you're trying to just, like, destroy her memory and her legacy. She's awful. And a friend of mine was actually covering this trial the entire time it was happening. And I was talking with her this morning a little bit, and she said that the jurors yesterday, once the verdict was announced, they didn't know about Tylee. They didn't know about jj. They didn't know about Chad's wife, Tammy, because none of that was introduced in this because it's something completely separate. So they would then found out after the trial had concluded that she had been convicted of killing her kids and that Tammy was dead as well. And she said that the jurors were so shaken up that one of them was physically shaking, which you can imagine at that point, they're all going home, researching the case, like, getting caught up with it.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

But that had to be very jarring to learn all that. And then if I was thinking when I heard that, I was like, if I was on the jury, even if I found her guilty, then hearing that after the fact, I would probably have such a pit in my stomach being like, thank God we got it right. Can you imagine if we, like, let this person go or had found her not guilty, and you learn all of these other things after the fact. It's just such a heavy responsibility.

[Heather McDonald]

In your opinion, how soon if she doesn't already have some male pen pals writing her?

[Annie Elise]

Oh, I'm sure she already does. I have some juicy scoop for you, actually.

[Heather McDonald]

Give it to me.

[Annie Elise]

So a girl who used to work for me, okay. In the true crime circuit, who went to these trials, I found out that she has been messaging with Lori, putting money on her books, pretending to be a Mormon herself, that she's, like, relating to her on all sorts of. I had. I sent her to the first Lori trial, and I never knew any of this. And I just found this out maybe two weeks ago. I was so sick to My stomach, like, I couldn't sleep. I was like. Because she started messaging her while she was covering the first trial. And so I don't know if it was like, she was fangirling over her or became so fixated she didn't realize, like, this is real life. She's not a celebrity. Because you know how people are, like, obsessed with Chris Watts and stuff too.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Annie Elise]

But full on started, like, a pen pal relationship with her.

[Heather McDonald]

So wait, this girl was working for you? Like, with research and stuff? And so how did you. Did you had you already let her go before you found this out?

[Annie Elise]

She left. Yeah, she left and works with another with a different news company.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. Do you think it could be, like, a lesbian thing?

[Annie Elise]

No, no. I think it's more of a fangirl type situation.

[Heather McDonald]

Just wanting to get close. Yeah.

[Annie Elise]

And like.

[Heather McDonald]

And just being the one that's, like, I'm the closest to this woman and.

[Annie Elise]

All, but she's not sharing it with anybody. That's what's so bizarre. She, like, she never told me that they were in contact, and this started while she was still working for me.

[Heather McDonald]

So how do you message someone?

[Annie Elise]

They have prison portals where they. It's almost like email.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, but she didn't. But not to your knowledge, has she gone to visit in person?

[Annie Elise]

Not to my knowledge.

[Heather McDonald]

And then she gives her money for, like, the noodles or whatever.

[Annie Elise]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, my God.

[Annie Elise]

And. But. And, like, created a whole fictitious backstory of her own upbringing. She's not born. And she said she, like, did all this research, trying to relate. Yeah. And just bizarre. So bizarre. And she was at this trial covering it, too, for the new company that she works for.

[Heather McDonald]

Crazy.

[Annie Elise]

Which I'm like, do you have any integrity?

[Heather McDonald]

Like, no.

[Annie Elise]

And yeah, it goes so beyond that, too, because she has advocated to be an ally for the two kids that she has talked with some of the family members, Kay and Larry and the.

[Heather McDonald]

Grandparents of the grandparents.

[Annie Elise]

Yes. Yeah, sorry. I think I said survivors. Meanwhile, she's messaging Laurie and befriending her. It's so sick. It makes me sick.

[Heather McDonald]

I do think there's a lot of fangirling, fangirling, you know, with it. Why women, you know, marry the Menendez brothers and things like that. Okay, where do you find. Where do you land on the Menendez? Where are we now with the Menendez brothers and resentencing hearings and all of this?

[Annie Elise]

So I believe they had a hearing last week, and now the next one is pushed to May to where they will be re sentenced.

[Heather McDonald]

May's right around the Corner.

[Annie Elise]

Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah. So that's gonna happen in May. I think that they'll be out, and to your point, they'll probably start a podcast. I think they'll be out. I feel like now it's like so much time has been served that. I don't know, it depends whether you stand on the fact of they should have been incarcerated this entire time, that they're guilty, that they did this because they wanted the money, or if you're on the opposite side, that they were abused. I don't think they're a threat to the public at this point. So I think they probably will be re. Sentenced and released. That's my guess.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. And they'll. They'll get a lot of tail.

[Annie Elise]

Mm.

[Heather McDonald]

And I don't think either of. Well, maybe Eric will stick with his wife that he's had. It's Lyle who had Anna Menendez, who found out he was cheating on her. Then he got another wife, who then she found out he's cheating with the young English girl.

[Annie Elise]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Heather McDonald]

And now Rosie O'Donnell says she's in love with Lyle.

[Annie Elise]

What?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Annie Elise]

Isn't Rosie O'Donnell a lesbian?

[Heather McDonald]

Well, she just says she loves him.

[Annie Elise]

Oh.

[Heather McDonald]

Like an auntie or whatever. Like the way she loved to Tom Cruise back when she was acting like she was straight.

[Annie Elise]

I think what they should do, aside from a podcast, is like, the Gap should hit them up and they should do, like, a sweater campaign. They should. They. There's so many things they could do. Even like Rolex, they could do a thing.

[Heather McDonald]

They're gonna. It's gonna be weird because they're gonna probably try to be, like, classy when they first get out. But they shouldn't.

[Annie Elise]

No, they should just build their.

[Heather McDonald]

Just tap. They should just make their money. Tap. All tap on the frenzy when it is. Because if you wait too long, people get over it. But you guys, look, the show has already gone a long time. But of course, we talked more and we got in, gotten deeper to the Menendez brothers. We covered Scott Peterson. We got into Gypsy Rose and Gypsy Rose Blanchard, and also a crime I was unfamiliar with. We kept going, and I was like, you know what? This really is too juicy. We are gonna put it on the Patreon under the triple scoop, which is juicy crimes. So if you're part of that, you're going to hear that as well. If you're curious about Patreon, you haven't joined Change your Life. Go to heathermcdall.net and join and you'll get that the rest of this episode, as well as my Friday episode this weekend. So don't miss out. Thank you so much. Love you. Bye.

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