Juicy Crimes with Matt Murphy on Menendez Brothers, Marijuana, Murders, and Serial Killers

Summary

Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald
Episode Title: Juicy Crimes with Matt Murphy on Menendez Brothers, Marijuana, Murders, and Serial Killers
Release Date: January 23, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald, Heather hosts Matt Murphy, a seasoned prosecutor and author, to delve into some of the most intriguing and controversial criminal cases. The conversation spans high-profile legal battles, the complexities of prosecuting crimes, and Matt’s personal experiences in the legal arena.

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Blake vs. Justin Legal Battle

Timing: [00:08] – [10:08]

Heather begins by updating listeners on the ongoing legal dispute between Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni. She shares her initial stance siding with Blake but acknowledges the growing public support for Justin. Heather discusses the release of a montage scene from Justin’s production company aimed at defending his reputation, which inadvertently highlighted uncomfortable interactions between him and Blake.

Notable Quote:

"I see why the majority of people are Team Justin Baldoni. I really do."
— Heather McDonald [05:30]

Heather predicts that the lawsuit might settle out of court, allowing Justin to continue his successful career while Blake might take a hiatus before making a strong comeback.

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Menendez Brothers Case Analysis

Timing: [25:24] – [42:13]

The discussion shifts to the infamous Menendez brothers case. Matt elucidates the legal intricacies surrounding Lyle and Eric Menendez's recent resentencing hearings, which were postponed due to LA County fires. He critiques the legal motivations behind potential resentencing, emphasizing the financial incentives tied to the case.

Matt breaks down the legal concept of "imperfect self-defense" applied in the original trial, arguing that the brothers' actions lacked genuine fear, especially considering the brutal nature of their crime—blowing off their mother's face with a shotgun. He highlights how financial gain played a pivotal role in their motives, undermining any claims of self-defense.

Notable Quote:

"When you kill somebody for money… If any part of the motive is financial gain, you have satisfied all the elements of that."
— Matt Murphy [29:13]

Matt warns that reopening such high-profile cases sets dangerous precedents, potentially influencing the sentencing of other offenders like child molesters and rapists, thereby threatening public safety.

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Impact of Legal Precedents

Timing: [33:04] – [39:12]

Matt elaborates on how the precedent set by the Menendez case could lead to the reevaluation of life sentences without parole (LWOP) in California. He argues that easing restrictions on LWOP could result in the release of the most dangerous offenders, exacerbating issues of sexual abuse and public safety.

Notable Quote:

"If we make it easier for them to get out, it's like… we just keep shooting ourselves in the public safety foot over and over again."
— Matt Murphy [36:38]

He criticizes public fascination with sensationalized legal cases, urging listeners to base opinions on factual legal analyses rather than dramatized media portrayals.

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Prosecuting Complex Crimes

Timing: [40:08] – [58:16]

Heather and Matt discuss various high-stakes cases Matt has prosecuted, emphasizing the challenges of distinguishing between genuine victims and false accusers in sexual abuse cases. Matt shares anecdotes about cases where victims fabricated stories, underscoring the importance of thorough investigation and corroboration.

He recounts his experience prosecuting violent offenders motivated by financial gain and the ethical dilemmas prosecutors face when evidence is ambiguous. Matt stresses the necessity of maintaining justice without prejudice, highlighting his commitment to protecting genuine victims while ensuring fair trials.

Notable Quote:

"As a DA, your ethical obligation is to immediately dismiss that… You have to be very careful as a DA on any case."
— Matt Murphy [55:26]

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Hulu Docu-Series and Future Projects

Timing: [58:16] – [86:45]

Matt introduces his upcoming three-part Hulu docu-series based on the Hussein Nairi case, his last trial as a DA. The case involves the kidnapping, torture, and attempted murder of a successful marijuana dispensary owner, intertwining elements of organized crime and personal vendettas.

He provides a gripping narrative of the investigation, detailing how meticulous law enforcement efforts led to the apprehension of the perpetrators. Matt highlights the complexity of extraditing international criminals, sharing insights into geopolitical challenges and the perseverance required to secure convictions.

Notable Quote:

"This guy had to have a pretty good frigging reason to kill your mom, as in something that mom did."
— Matt Murphy [32:24]

Additionally, Matt discusses his book, available on Amazon and Audible, which chronicles his prosecutorial career and various high-profile cases. He shares his experiences collaborating with celebrities like Anna Kendrick on legal aspects of their film projects, bridging the gap between law and entertainment.

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Conclusion and Future Discussions

Timing: [86:45] – End

As the episode draws to a close, Heather encourages listeners to engage with Matt’s book and watch the upcoming Hulu series for a deeper dive into the cases discussed. She teases that more detailed and controversial topics will be available exclusively on her Patreon, inviting the audience to support and gain access to additional content.

Notable Quote:

"This whole thing is coming up on my Patreon. You go to heathermcdonald.net, join Patreon and you can see the tier that includes juicy crimes."
— Heather McDonald [84:44]

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Key Takeaways:

• Legal Precedents: The Menendez case highlights the potential repercussions of altering sentencing laws, emphasizing the balance between justice for victims and public safety.
• Prosecutorial Ethics: Matt Murphy underscores the ethical responsibilities of prosecutors to ensure fair trials, protect genuine victims, and avoid wrongful convictions.
• Complex Investigations: High-profile cases require meticulous investigation, international cooperation, and overcoming legal obstacles to secure convictions.
• Media Influence: The portrayal of legal cases in media can shape public perception, often diverging from factual legal outcomes.

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This episode offers a profound exploration of the legal system's intricacies, the impact of media on public opinion, and the relentless pursuit of justice by dedicated prosecutors like Matt Murphy. Whether you're a legal enthusiast or simply interested in true crime, this discussion provides valuable insights into the challenges and triumphs within the realm of criminal justice.

Transcript

[A]

Hey there, Ryan Reynolds here.

[B]

It's a new year and you know what that means.

[A]

No, not the diet resolutions.

[B]

A way for us all to try.

[A]

And do a little bit better than.

[B]

We did last year. And my resolution, unlike big wireless, is to not be a raging and raise the price of wireless on you every chance I get.

[A]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch $45 upfront.

[B]

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[A]

When you're on the road, when you're.

[B]

On the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales For real life, Mr. Segment, serial data and serial sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.

[A]

Listen in, listen up. Hannah McDonald, juicy scoop.

[B]

Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, you guys, I'm so excited. I'm getting ready to come to the east coast and I'm bringing Juicy Scoop. Hilarious comedians that have come on the show before, Andrea Lopez and Anna Roisman, you know them, you love them. They're going to be featuring with me. We're going to be doing some funny sketches, some improv, some stand up, all of it. And that is February 14th at the Palladium in New York. Then we go to D.C. on the 15th and on the 16th, Red Bank, New Jersey. Everything [e-mail] now before we get into my really juicy interview with everyone's favorite prosecutor, Matt Murphy, you're gonna die. We get into a lot of it, but first I just wanna give a little update on the Blake vs Justin legal battle. You know, the last two times I've talked about it, I've gotten a lot of comments like, Heather, I can't believe that you are at all siding with Blake. Like Justin has been in your position where people have said lies about you and you want to prove that these are not true. And I have done more research on it. Look, it's a lot of pages. It's A lot of things. And I will say that more and more is coming out. I see why the majority of people are Team Justin Baldoni. I really do. And it is very interesting. And now, originally, I thought maybe this is why he's doing this $400 million lawsuit, is just to get this lawsuit out in the public so that people can read it all and see all of his text messages. And he's got all these, you know, uncut scenes and videos because it's his production company that was in charge of this film to prove his point that he was not ever acting inappropriately to Blake Lively. And all of this. There are so many details to it. So he recently, his people put out a video from the movie, which they were shooting for a montage, so it was gonna be just parts of music so they could talk, but they had to be, like, romantic and act like they're dancing and they're having this conversation, and they're trying to act like they're about to kiss. And she goes, oh, my God, there's just so many noses. And he's like, oh, I have a big nose. And she's like, yeah, and, you know, I want to talk to you about that. And they're kind of joking, and she's like, you know, you could take a day off or we could do an insurance month or something, meaning, like, stop production and get you a nose job. And then he goes, oh, yeah, that's why we hired Jenny Slate, because they play brother and sister's sister. And so that I kind of thought was like a dig to her, but, you know, whatever. But also then people. People did some research, and Blake Lively indisputably has had a nose job, which maybe that's why she was talking about it. Maybe she would have confessed to him. Maybe he already knew. If you look at her first movies, she has a very different nose than she has now. Just a little interesting. But in this, he was like, look, clearly we had an easy relationship. She's comfortable with me. I'm supposed to be acting romantic with her for this montage scene. So he's snug, you know, sniffing her neck. And she's like, oh, sorry, that's my spray tan. It must smell. He's like, no, it smells good. So he puts that out, and then her team are like, good, I'm glad you put it out. Now you can see how inappropriate it was and how uncomfortable I was. And I was saying these weird jokes because I was so uncomfortable with you. I don't think the audience is buying it. I think this is a real fine line because it's a movie and because you are playing a romantic couple. So it is very, very strange. And now he has set up a website so that everybody can go to this website and see for themselves all this evidence. Blake Lively's team has asked a judge to stop this and his attorney doing interviews and everything. There is a consensus of, was she secretly in love with Justin, flirting with him, and once he officially rejected her, then she went on this, you know, campaign to, you know, destroy his life. Did Ryan Reynolds maybe see these long texts that now we are privy to and think that it was inappropriate or flirty on her end, and therefore he also went after Justin? It's weird because the movie. We knew they weren't getting along. The movie was a success. We kind of forgot about it. We forgot that they didn't. When I saw this, like, a month and a half ago before the lawsuits, I wasn't thinking, oh, that's right. The two of them didn't really like each other when they were at the premiere. I had totally forgotten about it. She came forward with all these complaints to say, you have destroyed my reputation. I didn't think her reputation was at all destroyed. But was it a little tarnished? Did we think she was a little bitchy? Sure, but not to the point that no one wanted to work with her. But because she did that, then he had to go after her, otherwise he was staying silent about it. So what do we think is going to come of it? There are predictions from he will get a settlement that we will never know because she won't want to go to trial with this, because it appears he has so much evidence in his favor to say that her complaints were invalid. Invalid and. Or, you know, will they end up getting. Will she and Ryan end up breaking up over this? Like, what is going to happen? My prediction, or will it go to trial like Johnny Depp and Amber heard? I don't know. I'm gonna say it does get settled, and he ends up prevailing, and he ends up getting a lot of work because of it. And she goes away for a little bit. We just don't really hear from her in a while. And then she comes out and does something really good in about, like, two or three years, like a series or something. And this is all forgotten. People forget about it. And as long as whatever new project she does, she brings cookies and it is a delight and looks everyone in the eye. And Ryan Reynolds is nowhere to be seen on the set, providing they're still together. Then I think everyone could be fine. So that is my prediction settlement. And Ryan continues to have a successful career. She goes away for a little bit, comes back, continues to have a successful career. But if where their relationship is as Ryan and Blake, I don't know. But Ryan will continue with Deadpool and continue to be successful because he's a dude and nobody cares. Girls are much harder on Blake for sure and judging her behavior than anything Ryan could do. Also, Real Housewives of New York. Wow. I know. I haven't talked much about it. I've said it's boring. The finale was very upsetting and weird. Juicy. Like I leaned forward, I watched it. It involves Brend straight up possibly lying about a situation with uba. And I am gonna get into it because I have a lot of theories and some personal things that I know about the players involved. But I noticed that even though I thought it was a really juicy episode, again, nobody was really talking about it because I think that you guys have lost interest in it. But I will share that and so much more on my Patreon. You guys have to join my Patreon if you have not already. I've been doing it for eight years. You get access to all the past episodes. They never have commercials. And also we get into so much juicy stuff with Matt Murphy that we go long. And I saved the more controversial, juicy conspiracy theories, things like that for a special episode of Juicy Crimes, which is on my that tier of Patreon. Also. You'll be getting that this weekend. All of that and the tickets to my shows as well as March 1st at Agua Caliente in Palm Springs [e-mail] okay, now for my interview. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have return author, former prosecutor, everyone's favorite surfer, Matt Murphy. Welcome back to Juicy Scoop.

[A]

Thank you. Me and Kelly Slater, we're colleagues.

[B]

Are you guys. Do you know him?

[A]

No, I got. I got paid to do. I got a Hulu thing coming out on a three parter and they wanted to do some B roll with me surfing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which was the worst day of surf in the history of Manhattan Beach. It was like two feet, even smaller. Just like embarrassing, super gray. Like nothing that I could possibly do. But technically I got paid for it, which makes me a pro surfer, which means Kelly Slater is my colleague.

[B]

Are they going to use it in the Hulu thing?

[A]

Yeah, they're.

[B]

And what is the Hulu thing on?

[A]

So the Hulu thing is on my Nyere case, my last trial as a DA that we were gonna Go into.

[B]

Okay, we're gonna get into this. Your book is out. Juicy Scoopers have loved it. And I wanted to ask you the first thing you've said when you got here. I was like, ooh, has anybody wanted to make this a series or a movie about your life in general? Cause the book covers juicy murders, but also your life as a prosecutor in Newport Beach.

[A]

So right when I left the DA's office, and this is really kind of fun, Jerry Bruckheimer bought my life rights.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And that was a really interesting ride for me. So I go from 26 years as a government public servant doing all these interesting cases, and they really like the idea of like a surfing prosecutor.

[B]

So for like a series.

[A]

For a series. Yeah, for like a scripted series. They love the bass. They. They hired these two great writers who I really liked. They write for the. The show Bull. And we completely. We hit it off and. But this is Covid is just kind of starting to set in. Yeah, it was a weird time. And then we wound up. They put together this, this. This idea and it was like sort of ensemble, like, who's your investigator? Who's your paralegal?

[B]

Right. Yeah, I can totally see it.

[A]

They go into murder scenes. And it was essentially, it was all loosely based on real life.

[B]

You could totally see it. It's like your character holding the surfboard and then you're like, what's my investigator doing here? And he's like, here's a coffee. Well, let me tell you what I got. I could totally see it.

[A]

Which the funny thing is you can see it on tv. And that's the way it really kind of was. And that's the thing about working for a vertical homicide unit for all those years, because they let you stay. I was in homicide for 17 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had Newport, Costa Mesa, as, you know, Laguna beach and Irvine. So every one of those murders, I was at Costa Mesa yesterday doing some admin work.

[B]

Well, I still think this has got to happen because the case, the made up cases could be so fun if we stick to that area, which is true to you. And now America is much more familiar with because of TV and Real Housewives of OC and all of that. And. Oh, I think this. Okay, we gotta make it happen. So this deal is dead now. We need to find a new buyer to sell your TV show.

[A]

Yeah. So the book came out in September, and I've got. My agent's a guy named Mark McGrath at CAA and he's a rock star. I love him. And so he's got. He's one of the. He's constantly thinking. He's constantly got ideas. So this is like next phase.

[B]

Well, this episode of Juicy Scoop is what's gonna seal your deal. I make careers happen, which is very nice to you. I'll tell you what the show idea is going to be, and there could be some humor in it. You know, a real housewife could make. You know, there could be some crime. And actually, one real housewife is like a witness or something. She's an ex wife of somebody, and she's like, I don't want this. And then you're like, wait, there's a look at this episode of Watch what happens live with Andy Cohen. Great. Go back, go back. What did she say right there? And like, oh, done. My God. Why is this not already happening?

[A]

I'm all for you being a soothsayer, especially since I've been cheating on you with Megyn Kelly.

[B]

Right, let's get into the real issues here. Yes, I saw you on Megyn Kelly. You know what? I just. It's fine.

[A]

You know, there are people we could see. You know, they could talk to us. You know, I think we could make great progress with a professional.

[B]

But you did say this is more your favorite. You do enjoy me more than my blonde counterpart.

[A]

Absolutely. My favorite. Here's the thing with Megyn Kelly and I also, Sunny Hostin had me on as well in the Venn diagram of those two women. Politically in the world, I may be the one point of agreement because I actually get along great with both of them.

[B]

Of course. Why wouldn't you?

[A]

Yeah, but Megyn Kelly is such. She's like, she's such a pro when you, when you sit down with her that it's. To me, it's almost weirdly intimidating because she's got like, every clip is lined up perfectly. You know, like, she's. And she's just. And. And they don't. She doesn't tell you, you know, ahead of time. And so I wind up with like. She's like, she. She pulled ancient clips of me in court doing a cross examination. She's like, I'm telling her a story. And she's like, oh, yeah, we got that. Here it is. Boom. And all of a sudden I'm watching myself and it's. But yeah, she is. It's funny. We live in an interesting time, though, because she, she helped me talk about the book, you know, and she's a true crime fan, too, like, just in general. And it is, you know, you go on. On Megyn Kelly show and I think she's friggin awesome. And then, and then I get Instagram hate because I went on her show and then I go on Sonny's. Sonny's show and. And then I get like Instagram hate. You know, like it's.

[B]

But you don't get any hate when you come online very loud. No, you don't get probably about certain opinions.

[A]

You know, when I got in trouble was when we were talking about the Karen Reid case. Like I.

[B]

People were freaks about the Karen Reid case. Like they, you know what it is, is with certain legal cases, which I do talk about, I'm talking a lot about Blake and Justin, you know, and some of the people that are really, really into it. It happened with Johnny Depp and Amber Heard and I'm like, let me remind you people, and even though I am doing some juicy crime stuff with you, I am not a lawyer. I did not read 179 pages of the case. I was not on the jury. But there are laypeople that really have put in eight to 10 hours and they're watching other people that are put in eight to 10 hours and then I do seven minutes on it and I'm doing a comedic commentary. I'm like, that's the show. It's comedic commentary on pop culture and crimes and stuff. I don't know it. I'm just saying this is out there and this is what I find is interesting. Like chill out. But I love that it sparks any kind of emotion for someone to write something good, bad or whatever.

[A]

I told you, Camille Vasquez, I told you she was my old student, right?

[B]

Yeah. Who was the Johnny Depp's.

[A]

She was the lawyer that cross examined Amber Heard.

[B]

Well, a lot of people are comparing this Justin Blake Lively stuff to that kind of a situation. And people really already, before we even get to any kind of trials or whatever with Justin, everyone has shifted to pro Justin and anti, you know, anti Blake, which I can understand why. However, you know, we'll see. We'll see. I think it'll never make it to trial. I think we're heading towards some type of like quiet, shut up. But we'll see what happens.

[A]

You know, I think we talked about this back in the day about Johnny Depp. Like, I kind of thought when that first got filed, that was the best result for everybody. If it's just, you know, without really understanding it before I talked to Camille about it. Yeah, I thought like this should just quietly go away and everybody kind of goes there. But you know, it wound up being sensational, wound up being a trial. And I understand why he did it now. Like he wanted. He was trying to restore his reputation after getting just mauled by.

[B]

And that's what just. Apparently that's what Justin is doing too. And it's kind of like you got. I think both of the men feel like they're in a place where they're like, I've got nothing to lose. Yeah, I already lost it. And so it's like, no, let's go, let's go. And so let's kick off 2025 with a new Year's resolution. You'll actually stick to ditching uncomfortable bras for good. Seriously, life is too short to wear bad bras. Luckily, today's Juicy scoop episode is brought to you by HoneyLove, the brand that's completely revolutionized the wireless bra. What I love most about honeylove bras are they are so comfortable and I'm a little bit on the bigger boob side. They fit me perfectly. I have a friend who's on the smaller boob side and she absolutely loves it because it doesn't ride up. It fits so comfortably. You're not pulling it down. Honeylove's bras are actually designed with a back smoothing fabric that prevent the bra bulge. I know, I suffer from this. My sister does. We do not like it. Thank God for HoneyLove. Also, their V neck bra is for a totally smooth fit under clothing looks so great. Gives that support of a traditional bra without the uncomfortable underwire. Oh my gosh. And honeylove isn't just about bras. They've got shapewear that I absolutely love that have snatched my waist like no other. Treat yourself to the most comfortable bra on earth and save 20% off site wide at honeylove.com juicy. Use our exclusive link to get 20% off honeylove.com juicy after you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Start the new year with confidence. Thanks to HoneyLove, telehealth has made mental health care more convenient and accessible for millions of people. However, critical challenges like finding a suitable therapist, scheduling appointments and the expensive out of pocket costs still keep many of us from getting the care that we need. Rula is on a mission to make high quality mental from a licensed professional, easy and affordable for everyone. Rula's got you covered. They take most major insurance plans and the average copay is only $15 per session. You can now get the quality care you need when you need it at a price you can afford. I think mental health is so important. I think talking to a therapist is really key for so many of us. Whether it's something that you're going through that hopefully is temporary or just an ongoing therapist to get through life's everyday challenges. And it is hard to find a good therapist and oftentimes people don't go because they've made it so difficult. That's what I love about Rula. Thousands have already trusted Rula to support them on their journey towards improved mental health and overall well being. Head over to rula.com juicyscube to get started today. After you sign up, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support Juicy Scoob and tell them I sent you. Go to r u l a.com juicyscoop and take the first step towards better mental health today. You deserve quality care from someone who cares. Well, let's get into real quickly too. You know we talked about right when you got here, what are your thoughts about the LA fires? And this is where it gets a little juicy, a little controversial. Might have to put this on Patreon. Tell me what you think.

[A]

Well, first of all, I lived in the Palisades when I was in high school going to Loyola. I had some problems with my dad and he wound up kicking me out for a while. And the family that took me in was one of my friends at Loyola, still one of my best friends, Greg Maffei. His parents are now 90. They live in the Castlemarsh section of the Palisades and half their neighborhood burned down. And I don't think I ever was.

[B]

They're still alive and their house is standing.

[A]

Their house is standing how it is standing. It's probably just good old fashioned like asbestos everything, you know, asbestos bricks because they're next door neighbor, the house behind them like literally all in a ring and their fence is burned down and but they're, they're 90 years old and that. And it was traumatic for them.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

I never want to see another 90 year old man cry. And it is. And we grew up here, right. Everybody in LA knows somebody that was fundamentally traumatized by this. This.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And look, and this is more than. This is not, not getting political here but when you hear that the fire hydrants weren't frigging working and we had an empty reservoir and everybody from the governor on down is just trying to point fingers somewhere else. It is infuriating when you see the actual like, yeah, you know, like somebody needs to step up and take some responsibility for that. And we haven't seen it yet. And it is when you get into the nitty gritty, like the actual human trauma of that that everybody in LA has experienced vicariously with somebody like my buddy, I'm going to, I'm going to Samoa on Saturday, like two days on a surf trip with my buddy Sean, who I've talked about before we go on all these trips. He's in the book, you know, he lost his house, his mother's house and his mother in law's house in those fires. And now he's obviously not going on the trip. Like this was.

[B]

Do they have kids? Does he have kids?

[A]

Yeah, he's got kids. Everybody is. It's awful. And like finding new school, right?

[B]

I mean that's the thing with the kids, you know, like the finding new schools, the sports, the, all of that. I think I saw something recently when someone said, you know, it's hard because you might know five people and one person really might be doing okay. They weren't super sentimental about their house. They're grateful that they have money or whatever. And then another person, it was all about their house and that was their sanctuary, that was their memories. There was this. So it's like in speaking to someone, just like in death or whatever, you have to be really kind of careful and because one person seems like they're okay, you know, and then it'll go in waves, you know, so it's like a mut, like people need to be around and do stuff for people six months from now, maybe that's when they need the fun to buy the furniture, you know what I mean? Like, so we have to be there for the long haul for.

[A]

And then, yeah, then you, you see the clips of the looters, you know, and you see the clips of people trying to light stuff on fire, like all the, all. I mean there's like, there's consequences to the way LA has been run and, and we're, we're seeing it, you know, in stark, you know, high definition right now. It's, it's. And it's kind of, it's madding and also like their house is there, but the like, they can't go back to it. Their entire neighborhood's closed. And what's happening right now in a lot of those, I mean, this is a very wealthy part of the city. For those who haven't heard or don't know, a lot of people have safes and fire safes with like, you know, jewelry in there. And diamonds and if they didn't get out in time and get their, get their safes. So these looters are going into those areas. And fortunately we got Nathan Hockman now and George Gascon is out, thank God. Our former DA in Los Angeles that was, I think, responsible for a lot of the lawlessness that we're seeing. You know, but that's, that might be a little political, but Hockman is, you know, he's coming down much harder on them and hopefully going to offer a little deterrence. But no, it's, it's really. I went from being brokenhearted over it to kind of semi furious. And I think a lot of us are entering that, you know, the five stages of death. And yeah, like when they're able to move back into their house, their neighborhood is all burned down. Like there's no stores there. There's no, you know, 90 year olds. I don't know if they'll ever go back, even though the house is still, still standing.

[B]

So it's going to be a long haul. But since you brought up the prosecutor, I'm actually going to get right into the Menendez brothers. You know, I've talked a lot about it. I don't need to remind everybody, anybody of the Menendez brothers. But the latest one is the resentencing hearing for Lyle and Eric Menendez has been postponed due to disruptions caused by recent LA county fires. And originally it was scheduled for January 30th, but now the new dates are March 20th and 21st. First, what are your thoughts about, did you watch the series?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of Ryan Murphy. Okay, so let's just hear what your thoughts are on everything and what you and what your memories were back when it was happening to us in real life and people our age were able to watch Court TV and everything.

[A]

Okay, so the, the, what we saw on Netflix was this is something that, it's, it's like this is not a, it's not a documentary documentary like, especially the dramatized version. You know, the Netflix though, it's, it's something that was written successfully to evoke emotion as a, as any good movie would be. And it's based on real life. But look, we, I was a baby DA when that case was going down. And this was the case of the world back then. Right. Everybody's paying attention to it. I knew David Kahn, who was the second prosecutor, pretty well and he was a no nonsense, good, fair guy. And you know, this, what Gascon did was massively unpopular in the Lada's office. Among the rank and file, the actual people that prosecute cases for a living, that have dedicated their life to public safety, like they.

[B]

What he did at just a few.

[A]

Recommending that they be re sentenced. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah. So. So when we watch that, like you.

[B]

Think he did that as a Hail Mary to get reelected because he knew that like there was such a sentiment in LA of like they've done enough time. This evidence of molestation of the siblings and the. Not the siblings, but the cousins having evidence and they weren't being able to be heard in the second trial and all of that, you know, which I again, I personally, as a taxpayer, if they got out, I am okay with that too. Like, I feel like 35 years or whatever it's been. I don't think they're going to go and kill anyone else's parents. So for me, I feel like it's been done. But you know, there's a lot more legal stuff that I want you to of why that maybe shouldn't happen or.

[A]

Like looking at it that way, objectively, it's like you're 100% right. Like it's an inter family homicide. Okay. And it is a. And they've done what, 35 years, right? So, yeah. So when you just look at the numbers, you ask, you know, am I gonna lose any sleep if they get out? Answer's no.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I mean, probably same for me, kind of maybe. But here's. Here's the real deal here is that, you know, when you, when you talk about victims of sexual abuse, and that's the emotion behind it, and that's Kim Kardashian going to prison and going, I think they were sexually abused. Okay? So when you break it down legally, and I've done these cases where when you have murder for financial gain in the state of California, if any part of the motive is financial gain, you have satisfied all the elements of that, okay? So you can be motivated by 90% revenge against somebody that sexually abused you. But if you know that you're going to gain financially, the idea goes back to ancient Rome. 99% motivation to go to the gym means we sit on our couch. Like it means you don't go. 99% motivated to do something means it doesn't happen. 100% equals a whole. So if you're motivated 99% by being molested in the past or something else, and that 1% thing is, and I'm also going to inherit a whole bunch of money, you know, and that's all it takes.

[B]

That's really interesting. I don't think anyone has laid it out like that, you know, and you know that because of the law, that's.

[A]

The law in the state of jail.

[B]

You're right. And you know, they definitely proved that. You know, even like you said, even if it was just that 1%. And it's like, well, why shouldn't we have that money? Or you know, even when they, they brought up the fact that the one older brother didn't like the brand new car that he was presented with, it was like, well, if you were being abused for all these years and part of the deal was, if you don't tell, I'm going to get you a Ferrari. And now you got a Carrera or whatever. It was like, he could still be mad about that. But you're right, it involves money. And if you're following the law, then it involves money. And I mean, we knew from what they did that they were absolute. And there were so many things with the movie script that they wrote before about the two boys that kill their.

[A]

Parents, the putting shotguns with fake IDs.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And another part of the way that it's been discussed by Kardashian, by George Gascon, is quote unquote, the victims, right, as if they're one block and the family as if they're a block. So legally, when you break it down and you get an imperfect self defense, the ninth Circuit Court of Appeal. So after it goes through the state system, it winds up in what are called habeas proceedings in front of the ninth Circuit. They are no rubber stamp for the prosecution. And some of the cases, including Dating Game Killer, which we're going to talk about is they reverse that at one point. They view every conviction with a very skeptical. The 9th Circuit, which has long been viewed as the most liberal district court in the federal court system in the United States, wrote the most scathing opinion about the Menendez brothers and their defense, which is what is known as imperfect self defense, which means actual but unreasonable, which means Eric and Lyle had to actually believe that Kitty Menendez, not dad, Kitty Menendez, posed a threat of death or great bodily harm at the time they blew her face off with a shotgun. Okay, so when you take California law and you put it over, you overlay these facts. You know, these guys started this.

[B]

That was the instructions for the jury.

[A]

That's. Yeah, that's California law.

[B]

And I don't think there's anybody that believes that that night they felt it's either now or tomorrow we're gonna die. And that whole thing of they took us on a boat and because they were gonna throw our bodies over when they, like, rented a boat with like the. With like the captain and the. And the guy that made the sandwiches. And I was just like, I don't think anybody believe that, but did they believe that? They felt there was no way getting out. The one brother, he's like, you're staying here. You can't live in the dorms at UCLA so that I could, you know, abuse you for the next four years. And I'm just saying. So I'm saying, like, I get. When you watch it all, you're like, this was the most horrific family, horrible person. I definitely think that he was an abuser. I think he probably abused some of the people from Menudo as well. But you're right. If those are your instructions as a jury, well, you have to say, no, I don't think they actually thought they were going to be murdered that next day.

[A]

And as a prosecutor, you look at that, number one, Eric was a professional athlete at that point, and his mom weighed what, 120 pounds soaking wet. And so let's just say for the sake of argument that Jose Menendez did all that. And it was all true. Okay? You don't get to blow your mom's face off. And that's what they did. These were Mossberg 12 gauge shotguns. And I've seen emergencies.

[B]

Do you think if she was away that weekend with her sister and they just did it to their dad, do you think they could have either got a lesser sentence or be more likely to get out or never be convicted at all?

[A]

Well, I think that what they would be able to do is they'd be able to say this is motivated by something other than financial gain and be believed. Now, remember everything, because you're right, because.

[B]

Then Kitty would have gotten the money, but by killing her, too.

[A]

Why kill Mom?

[B]

Why kill Mom?

[A]

And I mean, there's so many problems with it. And everything you just said about going on the boat and all that. The fundamental problem with everything that we're seeing right now is it comes from them. These are guys that lied to the 911 operator. They lied to the responding officers, they lied to the detectives. Then they have this whole thing with Dr. Ozil and who believed that Lyle was going to murder him, which is the only reason why they were able to violate the confidentiality. Confidentiality. That's the only reason why that was ruled admissible. And they never said anything about sexual abuse. They never said a word. So you're talking to a shrink. Like when we see our counselor about my Megyn Kelly problem, we will have confidentiality when we go to our couples counseling on that. And we can. Everybody. Everybody's been in therapy at one point or another, and you have confidentiality and you talk about murdering your parents. And they told him the reason why they killed their mom was it was a mercy killing because the dad was cheating. There was nothing about sexual abuse until they got a legal defense. And Leslie.

[B]

So wait, hold on. I have a question. Because I remember thinking maybe when. So they. According to what I recall, they had to go see this therapist as part of this to get out of the fact that they were robbing homes in Calabasas.

[A]

Eric was. And then he began talking about the case. And then Lyle began seeing him and again.

[B]

And then also did the dad find this shady person and also tell the boys, don't share any. You have to go do this. So you don't go to juvenile hall. But in doing it, you better not say anything about what goes on in our house. So maybe they didn't share it prior.

[A]

Right. And the source of that was 100% the same guys who killed their mom. You know, she survived somehow this. This volley of. Of 12 gauge rounds. And this has conclusively been proven. Lyle went out to the car, reloaded the shotgun, and put the shotgun against his mom's face and blew off her mom's face. Having been to shotgun murders, I can tell you like the visceral brutality of that act, you better have a pretty good frigging reason to kill your mom, as in something that mom did. And another thing is, remember Lyle after the first trial, and it hung, Lyle picked up a court groupie who began visiting him in jail, who tape recorded a series of conversations where he was bragging about how effectively he lied on the stand in the first trial. So not only did he lie to the cops and apparently their therapist, if you believe their story, then they go to court. Eric got caught in one of the biggest, like cross examination, the prosecutor's guy named Lester Kuriyama, who caught him in a fraud, flat out lie about the shotguns, like demonstrable falsehood on the stand. So he lied to the jury, he lied to the judge. They lied to literally everybody. And here we are. And Kim Kardashian thinks they should get out. And here's my biggest problem with this. When we start out, we watch these shows, and I dedicated my professional life to fighting and advocating on behalf of victims of sexual abuse. It's been my since from my junior law clerk summer to my private practice where I represent victims pro bono in sex cases, it has been my, my entire professional career. When you. In the state of California, there's a huge movement here to eliminate lwop, or Life without possibility of Parole as a sentence. The three groups that are that serve LWOP are rapists, child molesters and murderers. Like those are the people serving life sentences in the state of California are overwhelmingly those three groups, those crimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this has become the poster case essentially for the elimination of life thought possibility of parole, which is what they were sentenced to, which is the sentence if you kill somebody for money. Right. So if this goes through and if they are resentenced, I think that it's what's going to happen next. Every single one of these people in California State Prison is going to line up for their resentencing. And if this is successful, the people that will benefit most aren't even Lyle and Eric, because it won't end with them. It's called precedent, stare decisis. Our entire legal system is based on what other judges do on similar cases or on cases with similar charges. And the people that are going to benefit most on this are child molesters and rapists. And if they start getting out, these people that are motivated by wanting to advocate on behalf of purported victims of sexual abuse will wind up creating more victims of sexual abuse. Because the last people we want out, trust me, people in the state of California who are in there doing LWOP are the worst human beings on the planet. And if we make it easier for them to get out, it's like, I mean, I love my state, I grew up here like you did. It's like we just keep shooting ourselves in the public safety foot over and over and over again. And so we start out with empathy because we see a documentary or a purported documentary or a show on Netflix and we see the way it's portrayed, there's so much that is left out of that. Like, we would need another. We need two hours to go through. What they did not include that were actual facts, like Jose Menendez was talking about writing them out of the will, that happened beforehand.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's well documented. And that's what we call, you know, a clue. Like if they think they're about to lose all the money regarding the timing of this, like, so when you talk to Das in the LADA's office, the real pros, like a buddy of mine, Jeff Lewin, or John Lewin, his brother, who's very well known. He's a guy that prosecuted Robert Durst in the Jinx. Or my co counsel on Rodney Hill College, Gina Satriano, who her whole career is parallel as mine. It's all sexual abuse. The idea that these two guys might get out because of a frigging Netflix story. And everybody watches this and they don't read the transcripts. None of your viewers probably. And this is not a criticism, but who reads the 9th Circuit opinion unless you're a lawyer? I've read it and it is probably the most accurate takedown of these legal concepts with these guys who keep getting caught and lie after lie after lie. And now we believe them all of a sudden.

[B]

And it's like, let me ask you this, because the fascination to me is that they're brothers with just a couple years in between. And there's something beautiful about the fact that they got to finally be in the same prison. I remember feeling like I know they're murderers, but. And then I also understood why they were separated back then, because they, you know, my sister, who's a criminal defense attorney is like, you put two sociopaths together and they're multiple times more dangerous. There's something. And so now you have, you know, murdering brothers who are also most likely abused in a fucked up home. And, and one has more power over the other. The older. Like, do you feel that Lyle is, is and was more dangerous than Eric? And do you think he at all, like, if this was just. If Eric hadn't been an only child and even suffered this abuse, would he have ever gotten to this place of killing his parents?

[A]

Well, number one, just hypothetically. So we're talking about big brother, little brother. Right. So there's that, there's that dynamic that I think is very much. But I don't know, it certainly seemed that way to me. Eric is the one that is basically giving this tearful thing to Ozil. And then Lyle comes in. Like Ozil thinks Lyle's gonna kill him.

[B]

The counselor.

[A]

He's the counselor. Right. And then so we learn about all this because of what he perceives as a danger. Then who's involved? And Lyle is the one that actually went hands on and murdered his mother. Right. So. And in the most, the most gruesome way. Can you.

[B]

He's the one who came back.

[A]

He's the one that loaded, came back a Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun and blew his mom's face off, literally. Somehow she'd survived the initial thing, by the way, her brother is totally opposed to them being released. Her brother Milton. So like when they talk about the family, the family, but then isn't his.

[B]

Sister, isn't her sister also like the 95.

[A]

Yeah, like the 95 year old sister.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And like on an emotional level we can sort of understand it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But at the same time he's also entitled to. He's considered a victim. And he's entitled under California constitution. It's Article 1, Section 28 of the California Constitution, what's known as finality in sentencing because he is a victim of violent crime. The brother. So it's like. So. And also going back to Gascon, there's two legal pathways here. One is just a motion to resentence. The other is what's known as a habeas proceeding, where it's like, hey, we got new evidence which is the letter and this thing from this Menudo guy.

[B]

The letter from his cousin that it looks like the letter was written by Eric to the cousin a couple years before. And it was stating the abuse.

[A]

It was, it was supposedly about six months before. It's undated. It's vague. He comes in, you can't understand how much I hate him. It's vague. There is no date that cousin has now died. But here's my problem with that.

[B]

So someone could argue that. Someone could argue that if this was sent six months prior, that the pre planning of the murder, because they're gonna be cut out of the will, we're dropping seeds that maybe we were abused. If that is the. You know, you could argue that too.

[A]

Every murder that I have that I've done where it's a murder for financial gain, there's fake evidence put in front of it. Not saying that necessarily is, but here's another problem that I've got with that, is that this was the biggest trial in the world. This was the case right back then. And he has one of the best defense lawyers and they've got virtually unlimited funding for their defense because the family is wealthy. Did Eric forget he wrote the letter? Like they have subpoena power. They've got the cousin who actually testified in the first trial.

[B]

So you're saying why didn't Eric bring it up?

[A]

How come we didn't see it then?

[B]

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[B]

On Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now. Why do you think that? Why would that.

[A]

Well, I've got a friend in the DA's office who will remain nameless, who's convinced that the letter is complete bs.

[B]

It's fake.

[A]

It's fake.

[B]

It came out.

[A]

It was delivered by a family member who has always advocated for their release, and who knows? And that's what's known as foundation. Like, somebody could say, I found it in my son or my cousin's stuff as I was going through it after he died. That's probably enough foundation to get it in. But that doesn't. Like, there's no. Their allegations of sexual abuse were never really corroborated by anybody except for them and each other. And that's it. And when you. I did sex crimes for four years before I went into homicide. Excuse me.

[B]

Wait. I want. Okay, yeah, wait. Finish your thought. But then I want to ask you a question about that. Go ahead.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, look, if you've got. If this is the smoking gun that everybody wants it to be now, right? If this is Gascon, who sat on the habeas petition for 18 months, by the way, like that, sat on his desk for a year and a half. So there's a lot of people in that office who think, yes, he waited until the last minute because he was about to lose an election by 30 points. So he wanted to. This was a Hail Mary. People think that. I don't know what he's thinking on that, but when it comes to. When it comes to that letter, like, if it is that important, Eric wrote it. Eric knew about it. He's got one of the finest defense lawyers. He's got a cooperative person who received it. Why are we hearing about it 35 years later? Why didn't we know about it then, if it's so important? If that was the smoking gun that corroborated the sexual abuse, and it is vague. He doesn't say, my dad is molesting me. It says, he keeps coming in here. You have no idea how bad it is. Could be interpreted that way. Maybe that's exactly what was happening. But I'll tell you who isn't in the letter. My mom is sexually abusing me, or my mom is holding me down as my dad is doing it or my mom has like there's nothing about mom in there at all. And if you kill one person for financial gain, if you give them a freebie murder on dad. You cannot kill your mom if financial gain is the motive. If it's 10%, 20%, 1%, if you kill your mom with a Mossberg shotgun. And one of the very first things they did after as they began this exorbitant spending spree with Porsches and Rolexes and 24 hour security and you know, is they got a locksmith to get into the safe because based on the prosecution to get into the will because they thought he might have actually written them out of the will. And they wanted to get that before anybody else did. That is totally consistent with the idea that they murdered their dad before he had a chance to do it. Because that was, there was evidence of that that was presented multiple times. I wish David Cohen was alive today to come in and address this because that guy, who was that? The prosecutor, he was the prosecutor in the second trial, the one that actually convicted them. And because, I mean I knew him, I had cases with him. That guy was the real deal. He's everything that you would want as far as a professional prosecutor who's fair and listens and considers all the evidence like that was that guy. And he passed away seven or eight years ago now. And I just wish he was here to address it.

[B]

Well, I will one thing and then I want to ask you this. That's the question about it. You know, I will say Lyle cheated on his first wife by having other people came in Ana Menendez. Then he had another wife for like 25 years. And it's just been revealed that he has been cheating on her with this other young. I think she's German, she's blonde, she's in her 20s, she's been visiting him, they have photos together. So now they're going through divorce. Do you imagine being the woman that visited him for like 30 years and you're like talking to your sister in law who's also married to Eric for 30 years being like we're going to get them out for Christmas only to find out that he is seeing like a blonde 24 year old? Yeah, well, so I mean I know cheaters don't mean murderers, but come on. Not a great character.

[A]

This is like, this is not. These aren't nice guys. You know, they're like they killed their friggin mom. Guys like, have we forgotten? Kitty Menendez was crawling away. They blew Lyle Menendez Blew his mom's face off with a shotgun. It's like that visual alone. You like, you better have something better than it was a mercy killing because our dad was cheating on her. Like, he can't, you know, so people see that. They see the cute kid, these cute brothers, and like, we think victims of sexual abuse. And, you know, look, I did four years in sexual assault.

[B]

Let me ask you this. As a prosecutor of it, have you ever in your career been prosecuting a case and there is something that you're like, oh, fuck, the victim. Victim is lying. Maybe it didn't happen. And how do you handle that?

[A]

So not in the middle of trial, but absolutely. Especially in murders, because when you catch the guy, typically you catch the guy pretty quickly, or the woman, you catch him pretty quickly. And then the investigation really begins. That's when you send in the computers. Like, I had one. I had a case out in Newport, Very, very wealthy family. And this guy was. They were in having a divorce. And we. There's so much cash. They're Newport coast neighbors of Kobe Bryant. And this guy. I filed this special circuit because it really looked like they were arguing about money. That. That was a part of it. And it only has to be. Again, it only has to be a part of the motive. And he strangled his wife in the bathtub. And he wound up, like, dumping her body in San Diego. This crazy kid, a rich husband, super rich guy. And we wind up. We. And that's when I would go to the autopsies. Like, I remember standing, watching this autopsy. And she'd been. It was, you know, all the classic signs of strangulation. He came up with a story about a painter at the house murdering her and putting her in a car. It was absolutely preposterous. But so we. I charge him with that. And he can't get out because it's. It's a Nobel hold on a special cirque of murder for a financial gain. And then we get the computers back, and turns out what this guy was doing, frigging weenie that he is, he was having sex with hookers. I'm sorry, sex workers, I believe is the correct term, sex workers without a condom and bringing home STDs for his mom, for his wife, for the mom of these kids because they had three boys. So, yeah, he's infecting his wife. That's what they were arguing about. And as the investigation goes on, turns out her family's got a ton of money. His family's got a ton of money. It was zero percent about money. Now I've got a very wealthy guy and I have an ethical obligation. And to answer the question, you must dismiss it or strike that enhancement immediately. You do not stop go. As soon as you entertain a subjective doubt as to somebody's guilt or the efficacy of any sort of charge or enhancement, your ethical obligation is to immediately dismiss that. A lot of people don't know that.

[B]

To dismiss that it was not. So then you have to say this was not money motivated.

[A]

Yep. I had to go in and I had to.

[B]

Truly a crime of passion.

[A]

I had to strike the. To strike the enhancement which allowed that guy to make bail, which sucked because then he fled to Mexico. He's on the lam and he killed somebody in Mexico.

[B]

Who? Like some other girl.

[A]

He killed some poor. He was driving, driving super aggressively. He had two Mexican sisters that were in his car that came from a nice family, like nice people. He killed one. He crashed and he killed one and permanently disabled the other.

[B]

In the car accident.

[A]

In the car accident. Absolutely horrific. And he was. So this guy was.

[B]

Is that how then you guys found him? From the car accident?

[A]

We had great work from the U.S. marshal's office and a bunch of like actual heroes behind the scenes and Newport Peach. A guy named Court Depwig, who was head of the homicide unit down there. Who. Detective sergeant, like.

[B]

So what happened to him?

[A]

They brought him back finally, finally prosecuted him up here in. In. Well, in Orange county. And he was convicted of murder and he got a life sentence. He'll get a parole hearing too soon because that's turns out being a second degree murder. But like, there's no. Like, that guy should never get out. You know, he shouldn't get out. He, you know, like. But I had to dump it.

[B]

It was second degree because it wasn't planned. It was an argument that went to murder. It wasn't. I'm coming home tonight. She's here. I bought the guns three days ago.

[A]

Right, Right. It was nowhere near as bad as. And I had another one with a guy who. He was a finance manager at a car dealership and he had this big history of domestic violence and he called 911. She already had rigor. His fiance, beautiful young woman and rigor mortis. So she'd been dead for a while. She'd clearly been choked. She's got petecular hemorrhaging in her eyes, which are like all the classic signs. She's got the finger marks on her neck, the whole deal. And. And cause of death was asphyxia. So that looks like he choked Her. He's been arrested multiple times for doing that to previous wives, girlfriends, whatever. And then three weeks, four weeks later, I get the tox results, and it turns out they had a huge fight. He was a choker. He choked her out. And she went in and took about 150 sleeping pills. So when we get that back, it's like, I've got a huge causation problem. And even though, like, on a moral level, he basically killed her, but she suicided. So that's another one I had to dismiss right away. So, yes.

[B]

So then he could only get. So was he convicted of anything?

[A]

Just abuse? No, no, no.

[B]

But Just abuse. But not.

[A]

I then gave that to a guy who went. Actually, the guy was so good, he wound up becoming my boss in homicide. His name is Brahim Betai.

[B]

But you've never had, like, a female try to say, I was, you know, sexually assaulted by somebody, and you are totally convinced. And then as you do the interviews and stuff, you're like, you know what? There isn't enough here. Or even in your brain, you're like, this girl's lying. Has that ever happened?

[A]

Yeah, we have tons of those. Tons. But we don't file those. When you look at those, and it's sexual assault. You're just reviewing sex cases all the time. So when you have one of those, I'll tell you the common one. And this is sad. In custody disputes, when you got a little girl or a little boy and the complaint comes and you look and you can almost. It's almost like a script. It's like, custody dispute. Okay. Mom reported. No. No corroboration. You see that. You actually see.

[B]

Or the saying that the dad that she's divorcing she believes is sexually assaulting her or a child.

[A]

Yes, you see a lot of that.

[B]

And then. And then she kind of coaches the child and then.

[A]

Right. And the good detectives spot those a mile away. There was a guy named.

[B]

That I think has to be, like, the cruelest thing.

[A]

People go crazy. Someone can do in divorces. People can go crazy.

[B]

It's the ultimate.

[A]

And when they're fighting over their kids, there is no limit of what they'll do. There's no lie they won't tell. Right. And sometimes it turns out to be absolutely true. But those who do falsely report are totally unfair to the people that are actually suffering abuse like that. Because it comes in with such skepticism when, you know, when it. When it comes in with five fake ones and there's a real one in there. So you try very hard to figure those out before you file, you know, and it's critically important to do that's one of the hardest parts of the job. Or the opposite. When you have somebody that you absolutely believe was being abused, especially with little kids, and you just don't have any points of corroboration and you believe the kid. And California law says you can proceed on those. But the only thing worse than some poor kid getting molested is some poor kid getting rejected by a jury after they come in and testify. So those are refusing the ones that you can't corroborate. It's emotionally taxing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's still, it's a critical part of the job because at the end of the day, people are presumed innocent and it's a real thing. And you gotta be, you have to be. You need smart detectives, smart prosecutors, smart judges, and ultimately a good jury, you know, and following California law, they get, they make the right call about 99% of the time, you know, in those, the jury will come to the right decision when the case gets that far. But it, you know, but you gotta be, you gotta be very careful as a DA on any case.

[B]

Okay, so now let's talk about a case that you did prosecute back in 2019 about a man who was, Was he left for dead or. Why don't you tell the story? This is your story. This is your case.

[A]

So this is.

[B]

And I was reading a little bit on it because I knew you were going to tell me about it. And I'm like, I have so many questions. So let's just tell the juicy scooper.

[A]

This is. Yeah, this is a wild one. So this is wound up being my last trial as a da. So this is. I got a three part Hulu docu series coming out in February.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yeah. And it is a. This is the Hussein Nairi case. So this is a guy who is California. When we, when we passed that medical marijuana thing back in the 90s, right now, now it's just, I don't think.

[B]

It was in the 90s. Oh, the medical was 90s. And then 2000. Around like 2008. Then it's like just. Yeah, right.

[A]

Okay, so here's the trick that nobody knows that F of the FDIC that we see on the front of every bank we go to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Stands for federal. Okay. So marijuana cultivation, sales use, all that is straight up legal. It's not decriminalized. It's legal in the state of California. However, it's still a federal crime. So what that means is the banks cannot do business with marijuana dispensaries or marijuana marijuana shops. So what that means is a lot of cash. There's a lot of cash and there's cash. There's a big pile of cash waiting in those businesses for the successful businesses at the end of every workday, there's a pile of money. And the people in the marijuana world, it's like the wild west right now. And there haven't been still and there haven't been a lot of really good solutions to this. And there, and look, there's one of the biggest investing groups in marijuana businesses and marijuana in the state of California, a lot of detectives believe are Mexican drug cartels. So this is not, it is a very complex dynamic thing to this day. But the bad guys. So marijuana for decades was just ruled by criminals. Like that whole world to grow at, you're a criminal to sell it, you're a criminal, even to use it for a long time you're committing crimes. So when they made it legal, a lot of legitimate business people saw the opportunity there and they came in with doing these hydroponic grows. And what it did is it drove the margins down. And you get business people that come in that are like honoring contracts and paying people a fair amount and shocking. Like they're actually engaging in fair business practices because they're business people. And for the criminal element, their margins used to be huge for the marijuana and then they get smaller and smaller and smaller and they know who's doing well. And you know, like the marijuana world, there are unicorn riding hippies who grow it and sell it and that's always been sort of part of it. But the truth is a lot of the people in that business, especially before, before it went legal, were hardened, gnarly criminals who committed murders and would rip each other off. And I mean one of the most vicious murders I had was a guy who got murdered in IRVINE over a $7,000 marijuana debt. And they, they killed him with a meat cleaver and drove him up to freaking Humboldt and buried him in a place called Stinky Beach. And I mean it's just awful. 22 years old, family who loved him.

[B]

So, so let's get into this one. So this guy had his own dispensary.

[A]

He has his own dispensary and he's very successful because he's one of those business guys, didn't even use marijuana himself. But he's, he's like, he's running a business and successful. He gets kidnapped in the middle of the night and these Guys pop out of nowhere in his apartment, and he lives in Newport. He's sharing this town home with another guy whose girlfriend was over. So they both wind up getting kidnapped, but they tie her up, they throw her in a van, but with him, they wake him up by beating him with a 12 gauge shotgun, okay? So in the face with the barrel, and they tie him up, they take him down out of the stairs, face down by the feet, so his face bumps on every stair. Like immediately ultra violent, super heavy. And they throw him in this van and they torture him all the way out into the desert. And that, like, they had a blowtorch on them. They've got like. And they get out there and the whole time they're demanding the. The million bucks, wherever that comes from, and they. He keeps telling them the money's in the safe, in the business, and they drive him out into the middle of Mojave Desert in the middle of nowhere.

[B]

What were they hoping that he would say, though? Like, that's what I'm getting.

[A]

They. Ultimately, we learned they thought that he had buried money in the desert.

[B]

Did some other criminal tell them that? How did they get that idea?

[A]

Eventually we learned that the mastermind in this had put trackers on his car and he'd gone out into the desert on a meaningless real estate trip with some friend of his. And they drove around for a while in this area, and this guy who puts together this super elaborate plan over months gets it in his head, he must be burying money in the desert. So they drive him to those GPS coordinates because he had those. And that's where they believe the money was. There's so many problems with the conclusion, but it's. That's what they believed. So it's three men in this van. He's been tortured the entire way out. And he's like, for the last time, the money's in the safe. Let's go there. I'll give you every penny of it. And they say, fuck you. And they cut off his penis.

[B]

While he's alive.

[A]

While he's alive.

[B]

And does he live?

[A]

And he lives. And they take it with them, which is another thing, the penis. They don't just cut it off.

[B]

So there's no way it can be attached or anything.

[A]

There is. And you know, it's funny, I mean, this is. Every woman that I've talked to about this case has. It's like, can't they. Isn't there something they can do? And it's.

[B]

Well, just because. Forget about sex, of course, but like, you pee you know, like that just means you're gonna be. Have some attachment down there for the rest of your life.

[A]

It's like losing an eye. Yeah, the poor guy's gonna have no nerves. And they cut it off at the base. It's absolutely horrific. But they. So, so basically what happens is they wind up in the desert, they cut it off, they drive off into the night. He is in shock. And this the girlfriend who is.

[B]

So they leave him in the desert though.

[A]

They leave in the middle of the desert, bound. Okay, Tied up, bound. There's almost no way that this guy should have lived.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Okay. So the girlfriend of his roommate, she manages to. They throw a knife in the bushes. The knife they used. She gets to the knife, cuts the bindings off of her feet, can't get the bindings off her hands, which are behind the back. Tries to cut his bindings off, winds up severely cutting his own boyfriend. No, no, no, her boy. So her boyfriend was out of town. This is the victim, the male victim's roommate's girlfriend.

[B]

Right, but. Okay, but he's in the desert, so. What are you talking about? Who's the guy she's trying to cut?

[A]

Sorry. So they kidnapped them together.

[B]

Oh, she went. She was in the desert too.

[A]

She's thrown in the van.

[B]

I thought she was. Oh, sorry, sorry. Okay, continue.

[A]

So they drive them both out there, but they took her so that she wouldn't be able to call the police. She wasn't a part of their plan. She wasn't even supposed to be in the house. So they take her as an. Also add on, they leave him with middle of nowhere, middle of the night, bleeding, totally exposed, and he has been tortured. Also, they poured bleach all over him before they drove away, which is forensically significant because bleach destroys DNA. So this is something that immediately stands out to detectives as something that was thought out. But she manages to get the bindings cut off of her feet. She tries to free him, she can't. She gets the blindfold up just enough, she can see. And off in the distance she sees lights and begins running barefoot through the. The open friggin Mojave Desert. And you can't make this up. The very first car she sees is an off duty sheriff's deputy, Deputy Williams, who's on his way to work in his patrol car. And he sees this woman in her pajamas, running, bound like duct tape and like stuff all over her head, bound behind with zip ties behind her back, running across the highway. And he stops. And this guy was so good he takes photos right away. So this whole thing is documented with photos. And then she is able to lead him back to our poor victim. And they immediately do a grid search. And, like, they take him to the hospital, but everybody that. The responding cops, they do what's called a grid search, where they're looking literally through every inch of the area, and they realize that these guys took it with them. So. And this is cool. They. They do a canvas, and we have nothing. He has no idea who would do this to him, our poor victim. And this is, like, unbelievably cruel. Right? And they do a canvas around the. Around the apartment where the kidnapping happened. And canvas is basically where they just knock on the doors of neighbors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you almost never get anything out of canvas. It's like a due diligence to say that you did it, that you did everything you could, and people want to help. So it's like, yeah, I heard somebody screaming down the street, but it might have been my neighbor's loud wife or, you know, I did hear a noise, but it was. It could have been raccoons in the trash can. Again, like, you get. What you get is you get a bunch of red herrings that suck up a lot of resources, and you almost never get anything good. And they talk to a woman who's one of the neighbors across the alley behind the house, and she's like. They knock on the door and she's like, you know, I did see something weird. I saw three boys in yellow hard hats, but the hard hats look too clean to be real. And I saw them put a ladder against that house, but I didn't see two of them come out. And they're like, you know, that's like, potentially home run of home runs. And they're like, please tell us you can describe the car they're using. And she's like, well, I wrote down the license plate. Will that help? And these. Can I swear?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

These dipshits. These dipshits had a rented van, and they. And they. They went to all of these elaborate lengths to hide their identity and. And to put this plan together that went on for months. There's this planning, and on this one day, one of the. Like, one of these guys was a mastermind. Really, really smart guy, Hussein Nair. He put the whole thing together. The rest of them were basically idiots. And one of these idiots used his own truck. So with his license plate, we show up at his house. The first thing the cops smell is bleach. And then we start finding zip ties. That match. And they find a blue nitrile glove underneath his car seat. And we send everything into the crime lab, and we get. So we arrest him.

[B]

Did you find the penis?

[A]

No, never. So they took it with them, which is like. Which full circle. I did eventually get to ask this guy about, but this is a. I almost don't want to blow the ending here. But what happens is. So we arrest the burnout idiot that drove his own truck, and we're prosecuting him. The mastermind has fled back to Iran, where he's originally from. He grew up here. He's an American guy. He was in the Marines for about a minute before he went awol, but he's an American kid, but he's got Iranian citizenship, and he's got family back there. So he flees back to Iran, and he's gotten away. So the conventional move on that is you issue a warrant and you hope one day he's dumb enough to come back to you United States. But we wanted to catch him because it was one of the cruelest cases I saw in 26 years as a prosecutor. So his wife was a law student, and their family hired a guy named Lou Rosenblum, who was my mentor. He brought me into homicide. He's one of the best lawyers I've ever known. Seen. He's one of the best humans. And Lou wants to save her because she's up to her eyeballs in this thing too. And Louis begins plotting, and he was the head of the homicide unit. He's a hunter. Like, he loves to catch the bad guy. And so here Lou has this young woman who was in this horrifically abusive relationship with this guy. Her family didn't even know they were married. And she comes from a very good family and out of. Out of Fresno. And he can save her from incredible legal jeopardy because she was looking at potentially life in prison.

[B]

Why? Why would she.

[A]

Because she was on the periphery of this conspiracy. There's a thing you learn in law school called wagon wheel conspiracies, where if you do anything to aid a better facilitate.

[B]

Is that what they mean? Like, let's circle the wagons?

[A]

Well, kind of, yeah. So in the middle, you can have one person that's running the whole thing. Every wagon wheel, even though the wagon. I'm sorry. Even every spoke of the wagon wheel, even though the spokes might not even know the other spokes exist. If you're helping the hub in any way, you're on the hook. And it's an ancient legal concept. It's not unique to California So basically conspiracy law. If you help somebody knowingly in any way in a criminal enterprise, even if you don't know the full scope of the conspiracy, you don't know who the other conspirators are, if you do anything to assist, you face legal jeopardy for that. And they, you know, and she, I've never believed that she was a full blown planner in this. And the more we learned about the abuse of nature of the relationship, the more sympathy I have for her. My co counsel, Heather Brown, the detective. And so basically she's like, she. There was a high speed chase involving this car that was in her name like a week before the kidnapping, and it was still an impound. And she went to go get it, and that had a bunch of this surveillance equipment in it. And she signed this thing indicating she. It was her car, she knew who's driving it, like, you know, and she reported it stolen. But it's. She faced great legal jeopardy and she was, she was a life worth saving. And the job of a prosecutor really is to do justice, right? So if you got somebody that, that doesn't deserve the full weight of the law to land on them, you have to show discretion in that. You have to, you have to recognize points of mitigation. And so her husband's a psycho who has been abusing her for years. And we've got corroborating domestic violence callouts, their house, and, you know, and she is clearly not the heavy in this, but he's gone away. So Lou sees an opportunity and it's like, you know, maybe, you know, we can save her life and catch the bad guys. So we wind up enlisting her to lure him out of Iran. It took us almost a year of.

[B]

Her to just be like, I'm so in love with you and I miss you.

[A]

All of that. We sent her to her uncle's funeral, and it's an incredible story. Never gotten to do anything this cool. Probably my whole time as a prosecutor. And then we wind up buying a ticket for her post bar trip that she'd been talking about taking with his sister, who didn't know we were doing any of this.

[B]

She passed the bar.

[A]

Passed the bar.

[B]

So she was a lawyer too?

[A]

She was in law school when all this went down.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And then we went to bat for her with the state bar because she was under investigation. We really. And Louis, she owes a debt of gratitude to Lou Rosenblum that I don't think she will ever fully appreciate or repay because that guy saved her life. Because she was on the short bus to stay prison, because this is such a horrific crime. Everybody was going down in one way or another, but the main guy had gotten away. And Iran is never going to X ray back to the United States. So by the time we were able to identify him based on the DNA from the club, which took weeks, he was in Iran within days.

[B]

I have a question. What are the. Like, there's certain countries that people go to, because even if you are like, this person's up for murder, they're like, we don't care. We don't cooperate. We don't send them back. Why? What are those countries? Are there a handful of them or are there like 50 of them? And why does some countries. Why do they want the potential murder? Like, I would be like, what? Here you go.

[A]

It's a great question. And look, there are countries that just to kind of stick their thumb in the eye of the U.S. like Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, probably even. I mean, maybe. I'm sure Russia now. So there are countries that are basically at diplomatic war with the United States. There are geopolitical adversaries, enemies, whatever. So they'll keep. They won't extradite anybody. And so you have all those dissonance that, like, went to Cuba in the 60s, like the LA radical terrorists that, you know, were blowing stuff up like that. And. And. But he was able to go to Iran, and they wouldn't just blanket accept, like, a child molester who fled. But counterintuitively, so. So part of this was, as we put this whole plan together, I was. We're communicating with the FBI and in various places and proving that there's at least one person with a sense of humor in the FBI, which I've doubted many times. They call themselves Task Force. Welcome home. So the people that are out there to repatriate violent criminals back to the United States, they call themselves the welcome Home Unit, which is funny and kind of cool, but so they were like, so this guy got a whole education on it. Like, so we're gonna fly him out of Iran to Spain, which is where they'd been talking about this. And we want to route him someplace that we can throw a net on him and catch him. Right?

[B]

A literal net.

[A]

Well, no. And even. No, cooler. A cooler net like this one involved police dogs and big cops with mustaches. Yeah. So he's like, look. And counterintuitively here, you know, one of the worst countries to extradite back to the United States, the uk. The UK is a pain in the ass. And they think that we are. We're savages. And our legal system, even though it's based on common law, it is. And they have. And that's where your question really is. I don't know why the UK is in love with all of our child molesters, but there are so many in the UK right now living freely that have escaped the United States, that are dragged down in extradition proceedings. France is bad. Spain is bad. Yeah. I mean, there was a guy who murdered Einhorn, who was a radical in the 60s, who murdered his girlfriend. He was like an academic, like, Vietnam War protester guy, and he sat in France for decades before we found out.

[B]

Where did Roman Polanski end up?

[A]

France. Yes. Yes. So there are all these countries that will. There's countries that just won't extradite, and then there's others that are massive pains in the ass.

[B]

And it's scary for the people that live in France and England to have, like, much of them.

[A]

Well, not only that, it's a huge slap in the face of the victims of violence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. So anyway, so we get them in the Czech Republic because all the former Soviet bloc countries apparently love the US and trust our judicial system for fairness. So we get him in the Czech Republic, he winds up spending a year in solitary confinement in a prison built by the Nazis during World War II. And then we extradite him, we get him back, everything is good, full steam head. We've already prosecuted Hanley. We got everybody in the conspiracy.

[B]

So you already had the two other guys.

[A]

We got everybody involved in this, and we've got. And they're in various stages of, like, you know, we worked some immunity deals with some, like. And, you know, we're. And others are doing less time because.

[B]

And this guy of the three, he was there hurting him too, or was he just the mastermind?

[A]

We've always believed he was the. He was the movement shaker who's the mastermind of the whole thing. And we proved he was the mastermind of the.

[B]

But you don't. You. But you didn't. You don't know if he was there that night.

[A]

No, I know that he. I know that he is. We, in one of the interviews we did of one of his co conspirators, the co conspirator flat out said, he's the one that cut off the penis.

[B]

Oh, so he was there.

[A]

No, we have. We have information. We didn't introduce that into evidence, but we. That is, as a matter of empirical truth here. Whoever is ever watching this, like, I've Got that tape. Like, one of the co defendants pointed his finger at him. And when you look at the background of all these guys, this guy was. He was a really smart guy, and he was in the marijuana world, and he just wasn't making the margins and all of that stuff. And he was also involved in a homicide, a voluntary or involuntary manslaughter of a friend of his that he did in a rollover car accident and killed him, you know, accidentally, but, like, driving recklessly, you know. So we get him back in Orange County Jail, all is well. Takes us probably two years later, and I get a call from the sheriff's department that they had a count, which is when they count the prisoners. And he was classified as what's known as a white bander, which is like DUI guys or misdemeanor domestic violence guys. Somehow this manipulative mother effer convinced them that he was not a risk. This is a guy who's fled to Iran. Takes us like, over a year to catch this guy. And he has escaped from the Orange County Jail. And when he escaped, he left my photo on his bunk. He had a photo of me and my co counsel, Heather Brown, on his bunk. And he had tunneled out, like, literally escaped from Alcatraz through a vent in this dorm with 50 other prisoners. Took them months. They got hacksaws. They hacksawed through a bunch of.

[B]

Just like that movie where they would. Yeah, you do a little every night.

[A]

Just like the movie. It's like Shawshank Redemption meets Escape from Alcatraz, only way less sympathetic characters. And he escaped with two other guys that were charged with murder, and they rappelled off the roof, got a cab driver went up, and I am convinced this guy, it was like 18 hours between the time he was actually out and the time they missed him in the first count. It was like. Because these are the least secure prisoners. Like, if you're a white banner, you're a misdemeanor, basically. Then it goes yellow, orange, red, and then blue all the way up through. Like, blue is medical, but red banders, the most dangerous. Like, this guy should have been a frigging red bander the second he walked into the. But they gave him a white band designation because he's so.

[B]

Did they find him?

[A]

He's so manipulative, or do you want.

[B]

To save and make everybody read your book?

[A]

No, I'll do the big reel. Hopefully there's a lot more in the book. But no, we get him and then he's captured a week later. All you need to do is head south. Iran has an embassy in Tijuana. And like, they don't check IDs when you go south. Like, you can drive across the border, all you need to do is go south. And instead they went north. And we wound up recapturing Santa Barbara. All the guys, they were in San Francisco, they were busted in a van in Golden Gate park smoking weed. And it's like Lou kept calling it 95% genius, 5% pure dip shittery. It's like all the planning, and then he figures the money's in the desert because of the GPS crimes that are.

[B]

One day, yeah, they just soak a joint in San Fran, they won't let go.

[A]

All he has to do is go south, show up at the American. And, like, I was convinced he was. He was found the guy who outsmarted, outsmarted us. So anyway, we wind up on the stand in my last trial and I'm cross examining him. And that was my final question was, we're all wondering, man, why not just leave it there so the poor guy at least has a chance to reattach it? Why not? And he, and he. It's called flashing. Where you get the guy accused of the violent crime to get super angry. And he freaking threatened me from the stand in between a superior court judge and the jury that's gonna decide his fate. And he's like, you, you are done. And he knew. He knew what we had done. We turned his wife against him. We, like, we. And that itself was just the process. Like that. I'd never heard of anything like that. And we, but we did it. And we caught this guy. And he hated me. He, like, personalized a lot of it. And so he is just like, he's like, you, you are done. I'm like, I'm done? What do you mean I'm done? He's like, you, personally, you're done. Super menacing, which is what you want when you're trying to draw it out. And then to the jury, it's like, ladies and gentlemen, think about this. He's threatening me. I'm a senior deputy district attorney in a superior court, literally in between a superior court judge and you. And we're surrounded by armed police officers and bailiffs. Imagine what that guy is like in the back of a van when he's not getting the million bucks that he's fantasized he's about to get. Like, is that the type of guy who would cut off a penis when he, you know, like. And it's. I mean, the trial Itself was so wild. And he was convicted and he's been sentenced to life without possibility in California State Prison. And hopefully he will never get out.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, that. So that's on Hulu this month, but you can also read about it in the book. Listen, tell everybody where they can get the book and what else you have going on. The Hulu thing. You don't know. It's in February. It's coming up.

[A]

It's coming out in February. Yeah, I think it comes out on the seventh. I don't think they've made a final determination, but it's coming out soon.

[B]

Great. We will be watching.

[A]

Yeah. So the book is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, I just found. And this is cool. They've run out of copies in their warehouses.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that's pretty good to hear. The Audible also. I narrated it myself. I don't get it because I hate the sound of my own voice, but that's done really well. People seem to really like the Audible that you can download that.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

On Audible, on Amazon. And then one of the chapters, one last final thing, is on my Dating Game killer case. Anna Kendrick has a movie right now.

[B]

Oh, yes. I have it right here.

[A]

Go ahead. She has a movie.

[B]

I watched it. It was great.

[A]

Called Woman of the Hour, and she brought me in as a consultant. Danny Lovato is the actor on that. I had to deal with Alcala in court every day because he represented himself. And that actor did such a phenomenal job.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Absolutely fantastic. And they brought me in. For anybody who's wondering, Anna Kendrick is lovely. I love dealing with her. She was absolutely fantastic. And it was such a good experience overall. They let me come to the set.

[B]

Meanwhile, she had a little bit of a. There's been some weird videos of her and Blake.

[A]

Oh, I didn't. I did not.

[B]

Because they did a show called A Simple Favor, which is a great movie, too. But it's interesting to hear. Like, Blake does not have a good reputation about people who've worked with her on set and. But Anna does. So that's sort of.

[A]

Anna was fantastic and. And very quick, funny story. She invites me to the premiere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I get. I get. I. And I almost. I was gonna do an interview. They asked me to do an interview for Entertainment Tonight or one of those. One of the dailies. And they wouldn't let me on the red carpet. The bouncer wouldn't let me on because I'm by myself and apparently look like I did not belong. Finally talked my way into that but then I wound up sitting in between people that turned out to be Anna Kendrick's agent on one side of me and her manager on the other. And the manager turns to me and she has no idea who I am. And she's like, she's like, so. And I'm with like, the, the. The heavyweights, right? And she goes, so who are you again? And I'm like, I was the prosecutor on the case. And she's like, oh, oh. And then that's it. And then movie ends, she's on her feet and out. And then. So I go, they had the, the afterparty and this is the. Yeah, it's a premiere. This is super fun for me. I'm by myself.

[B]

Yeah, of course. Fun for anyone. Yeah.

[A]

And I go in and. And. And then Anna shows up and I. I got to work with her a bunch on. And really kind of got to be friends, you know, like, and we kind of hit it off, and she's smart as hell, funny as can be, and I really kind of felt like I made, like, a new friend. So she comes in, she's like, take me to the bar and let's get a drink. And I go in, and then she starts introducing me to people, and I've got this like, semicircle around, and they're like, so what was he really like? And I'm talking about dealing with rotten alcohol. And this woman, the manager comes back over and she's like, wait, who are you again? And I'm like, I told you I was the prosecutor on the case. She goes, I thought you were like a prosecutor from some scene that we cut because you didn't make the movie or an actor. I thought you finagled your way in as, like, some cheeseball actor. Like, yeah, I got it written all over my face. And like, no, as the actual prosecutor on the case. And it was. That was such a good experience from beginning to end. And I, she was. I brought her down. I introduced her to the lead detective who's a superior court judge and a friend of mine. And she was like, freaking smart and had all, like. She was asking questions of us that like 20 year detectives ask. When you're. When you're sitting there lunch going, what do you think these guys think? Or what's the like. Yeah, she was already at that level and she just really wanted to understand it. I was blown away by it. And one of those things that we all wonder, it's like, who would get in the car with the serial killer? You know, who would be dumb enough to like go into the woods with this guy. And then when you actually deal with them, okay, like with Robbie, five minutes after dealing with him on the first day after he went pro. Pro. Representing yourself, it's like, that's why. Cause you get that Ted Bundy. Yeah, you get the Ted Bundy. You get that hard dose of superficial charm. And it's like. Which is one of the most fascinating things about serial killers in general. But this actor friggin nailed it. And he did such a good job. And you saw it. Of going from that like, charming guy to going dark. And that was Rodney Alcala. And that movie was phenomenal.

[B]

It was really good.

[A]

Yeah. So anyway, it's a chapter out of the book.

[B]

Yeah. So everybody get the book or the audio. And then we're gonna watch the three part on the Hulu. Now that we know something about it, it'll be that much more interesting to watch. Thank you. Okay, well, now we have even more we want to discuss, but the time is up. So that is going to be over on my Patreon. You go to heathermcdall.net, join Patreon and you can see the tier that includes juicy crimes. And that will be. We will cover Luigi, we will cover Epstein, we will cover P. Diddy and so much more. That is all over on the Patreon.