Matt Murphy, The Preppy Murder, Girl Kills Parents and Idaho 4

Summary

Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald: Episode Summary Episode Title: Matt Murphy, The Preppy Murder, Girl Kills Parents and Idaho 4
Release Date: July 15, 2025
Guests: Matt Murphy, Crime Expert and Attorney

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1. Introduction to the Special Crime Episode

Heather McDonald kicks off the episode by welcoming Matt Murphy, a seasoned crime expert and attorney, to discuss a series of high-profile criminal cases. The focus of this special episode revolves around the Idaho murders, the intricacies of the death penalty, and notable cases that have captured public attention.

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2. The Idaho Murders and the Death Penalty

The primary discussion centers on the tragic Idaho murders, which have been the subject of the recently released Amazon Prime documentary, One Night in Idaho.

Matt Murphy delves into the legal processes surrounding the death penalty in the Western United States:

"So this was a death penalty case. And essentially, the Western United States, pretty much every state of the 27 that still has the death penalty, they do what's called a bifurcated trial." [04:38]

Key Points Discussed:

• Bifurcated Trial Structure: Divided into a guilt phase and a penalty phase where aggravating and mitigating factors are weighed.
• Current Status in California: Although California maintains the death penalty, there’s a moratorium in place with over 700 individuals on death row, and no executions foreseeable.
• Philosophical and Ethical Debates: Matt highlights the pros and cons of the death penalty, emphasizing the importance of objective discussion free from political biases.

Heather raises concerns about plea deals and the implications of the death penalty's current state in California:

"It seems like whether you're Scott Peterson or whoever, there's a lot more people that are more engaged in wanting to help you or Innocence Project or whatever, because you might die versus someone that is gonna spend the rest of their life in prison." [06:17]

Matt's Insights:

• Effectiveness of the Death Penalty: He argues that death sentences often do not deter crime and may not prioritize cases where genuine innocence is at stake.
• System Reliability: Despite public concerns, Matt asserts that wrongful convictions are rare, citing his experience on the Innocence Project board, where he has yet to witness a wrongful murder conviction exonerated.

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3. Profiling Serial Killers

Matt Murphy offers an in-depth analysis of serial killers, debunking common misconceptions.

Key Discussions:

• Characteristics of Serial Killers: They are often high-functioning individuals with stable lives, debunking the myth that childhood abuse is a common precursor.

  "The most common trait that you see in these guys isn't abuse. It's that they were spoiled, that they were indulged as kids." [32:52]

• Female Serial Killers: Matt discusses the rarity of female serial killers and their typical methods, such as poisoning, challenging the stereotype that they lack the physical prowess of their male counterparts.

  "There are a woman of course, famously, Eileen Wernos in Florida, she was a female serial killer who's killing truck drivers." [21:23]

• Case Studies: He references notorious cases like Rodney Alcala, Ted Bundy, and Bryan Kohberger, emphasizing their premeditated and psychopathic tendencies.

Notable Quote:

"True serial killers, they are sexual predators. And those are really, I have no doubt that Kohberger's one of those." [15:25]

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4. The Preppy Murder Case

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the "Preppy Murder" case involving Bryan Kohberger.

Heather's Observations:

• Motive and Plea Deal: She speculates on Kohberger's intent, suggesting that his inability to handle the prospect of the death penalty led him to accept a plea deal.

  "He wants to plead. And the big winner that day, I hate to say it, was Bryan Kohberger." [26:42]

Matt's Legal Perspective:

• Prosecution's Strategy: Matt criticizes the prosecution for shifting their approach, arguing that Kohberger deserved the death penalty based on the brutality of his crimes.

  "This is one that just in my view, my opinion, screamed out for it." [35:08]

• Impact on Families: He emphasizes the emotional toll on the victims' families, criticizing the lack of consultation and communication from the DA.

  "You can't criticize somebody that they're victims and they are immediate victims." [35:08]

Notable Interaction:

Heather McDonald: "You have to have good prosecutors. We need to have people with skills and dedication, but they're underpaid and they're under supported." [51:15]

Matt Murphy: "You get all from cold because some kid wanted to defend his ego with a knife." [51:52]

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5. Comparative Cases and Broader Implications

The conversation extends to other high-profile cases, illustrating patterns in criminal behavior and legal responses.

Gypsy Rose Case:

• Matt discusses Gypsy Rose Bland's case, understanding her actions as a result of severe abuse (Munchausen syndrome by proxy).

  "That was a horrible human being who was mentally ill for sure. And what she put her daughter through was horrific." [57:43]

Sherry Papini and Related Cases:

• Manipulation and False Testimonies: Matt criticizes cases where individuals falsely claim abductions, highlighting the strain on law enforcement resources and the complications in genuine cases.

  "It's a tremendous waste of resources. But the real problem is when you have real victims on hard cases." [63:37]

Notable Quote:

"She lies to my face. It's easier to believe than when you're actually listening with no visual." [64:29]

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6. The Menendez Brothers and Judicial Precedents

Matt addresses the Menendez brothers' case, discussing the implications of their resentencing.

Key Points:

• Legal Precedents: The Ninth Circuit's scathing opinion on the Menendez brothers sets a troubling precedent, potentially impacting other life-without-parole cases in California.

  "This sets a horrific precedent." [72:22]

• Public Perception vs. Legal Reality: There's a tension between public sympathy for the brothers and the legal system's stance on their crimes.

  "They did 35 years. I stand Correct." [73:15]

Heather's Input:

• She empathizes with the victims' families while recognizing the complexities of the legal outcomes.

  "The people that support the plea ... but we can't criticize somebody that they're victims and they are immediate victims." [35:08]

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7. Ethical and Social Considerations in Prosecution

The discussion veers into the ethical responsibilities of prosecutors and the societal impacts of high-profile crimes.

Matt's Perspective:

• Prosecutorial Conduct: Emphasizes the importance of ethical prosecution, free from personal biases and influenced by emotional appeals from victims' families.

  "Don't file what you prove and you prove what you pled." [26:42]

• Stare Decisis and Its Consequences: Highlights how adhering to legal precedents can sometimes undermine justice in individual cases.

  "We exist in a system with what's known as stare decisis." [72:22]

Heather's Concerns:

• Media Sensationalism: She worries about how ongoing media coverage and public interest in cases like the Menendez brothers prevent true closure for victims' families.

  "It's never truly over." [35:08]

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8. Closing Thoughts and Future Discussions

Heather and Matt conclude the episode by reflecting on the broader implications of legal decisions and media portrayals of crime. They underscore the importance of informed discussions around the death penalty, prosecutorial ethics, and the societal fascination with true crime stories.

Final Notable Quote by Matt:

"This is a thing where they will stage kidnappings. There's another one in Georgia, very famously the problem." [63:54]

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Conclusion

This episode of Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald provides a compelling exploration of high-profile criminal cases, the complexities of the death penalty, and the psychological profiles of serial killers. Through Matt Murphy's expert insights and Heather's incisive questioning, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the legal and ethical dimensions of these cases, as well as the profound impact on victims' families and society at large.

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For more detailed discussions and upcoming topics, listeners are encouraged to follow Heather McDonald and Matt Murphy on their respective platforms and stay tuned for future episodes.

Transcript

[Heather McDonald]

Heather McDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales For real life, Mr. Segment, serial data and cereal Sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in.

[Matt Murphy]

Listen up. Whoo.

[Heather McDonald]

Whoo. Hannah McDonald, juicy scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. This is a special juicy crime episode with your favorite crime expert, attorney, hot surfer, O.C. guy, L.A. loyola boy. My Catholic brother from another mother, author of the book of murder, Matt Murphy. Welcome back to Juicy Scoop.

[Matt Murphy]

Thanks for having me again.

[Heather McDonald]

The book is a huge hit.

[Matt Murphy]

It's doing remarkably well, which is good for my ego.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And I mean, I hope to see this. We talked about it before. I hope to see it like, I could see it as a series because you're such an interesting character and then all the different kinds of things that you could write around it. So putting it out there in the universe for you.

[Matt Murphy]

Thank you.

[Heather McDonald]

But we have lots of things to talk about. Thank you for coming to my party.

[Matt Murphy]

It was great. That was actually really fun.

[Heather McDonald]

Thank you. I appreciate you coming.

[Matt Murphy]

Sort of middle summer, middle of summer, everybody's got that summer, like, the summer summer look going. And I was. It was. It was fabulous. It's fun for me. It's the second time I've ever actually stood on one of those red carpets. Yeah, right. And then I look and the guy next to me, I'm like, I know I recognize him from someplace. And it was Dr. Drew.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Murphy]

I love Dr. Drew.

[Heather McDonald]

He's the best.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. That was a fun.

[Heather McDonald]

I'm so glad you came.

[Matt Murphy]

Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan are back in Disney's Freakier Friday.

[Heather McDonald]

Yes. Twinning.

[Matt Murphy]

Yes. On August 8th, we switched bodies.

[Heather McDonald]

I didn't want to be a part of this family, and now I'm part of some dodgy family curse. And I'm the eldest.

[Matt Murphy]

The ultimate movie event of the summer arrives.

[Heather McDonald]

I think I just peed a little.

[Matt Murphy]

Disney's Freakier Friday in theaters August 8th. Get tickets now.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, this is cool. Let's do it.

[Matt Murphy]

Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested on WhatsApp.

[Heather McDonald]

No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. With school out, summer is the perfect time to teach our kids real world money skills they'll use forever. Greenlight is a debit card in the number one family finance and safety app used by millions of families helping kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. Parents can send their kids money and track their spending and saving while kids build money, confidence and skills in fun ways. Start your risk free Greenlight trial [e-mail] Spotify that's greenlight.com Spotify. Okay, now we're gonna talk about crimes and documentaries and the big news stories. So the Idaho murders, murders. I watched some of this doc, which is on Amazon prime, came out a few days ago, one night in Idaho. It is very, very well done. And for someone who, you know is an amateur at trying to figure out what happens in these crimes, we covered a lot of it here on Juicy Scoop. There was a lot of wondering what happened? What happened with the two roommates that were the survivors that called each other? And why did they not wake up till 12? And why, when there was a call, did they say it was an unconscious person instead of four people murdered? And we never really heard from those people, but we see them on this and it's really, I mean, first of all, it's just absolutely heartbreaking and really hard to watch. I actually told my sister Shannon, I'm like, I don't think you should watch it. I go, because the girls will remind you too much of your daughter going off to college this year, as we know, just to catch people up. There was a plea deal in which he did say, I killed all four people, premeditated. I watched that video in front of the judge explain a little bit about how those type of things happen.

[Matt Murphy]

So this was a death penalty case. And essentially the Western United States, pretty much every state of the 27 that still has the death penalty, they do what's called a bifurcated trial. Okay. So the first phase is the guilt phase. Second phase is what's known as the penalty phase. In the penalty phase, the jury considers the aggravating and mitigating circumstances of the offense. So, for example, somebody that say they go in and they kill their stepdad who is molesting them. Okay? So that's an accusation that we've heard a lot with the Menendez brothers that we're going to get to not stepdad, but natural dad. So if there's mitigating evidence, the jury will weigh that. They'll Assign a weight to that, and then they'll determine whether or not the aggravating circumstances substantially outweigh the mitigating. Okay. And if they do, they can but are not required to return a predictive death. So a lot of that is. It's kind of thick legalese.

[Heather McDonald]

Quick question.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Is where. What states are? There's a death penalty in every state.

[Matt Murphy]

Some 27 states still have it and the federal system, and then we don't.

[Heather McDonald]

Have it in California.

[Matt Murphy]

We have the death penalty on the books in California, but there's a moratorium on it. There's over 700 people on death row. We'll probably never see another execution in California. There are. You know, it's a very emotional topic for a lot of people. Death penalty. There are really good reasons against having it that are philosophical, religious, whatever, and there are good reasons for it. And when we get out of the crazy politics of our time and actually engage in the pros and cons, those are really interesting conversations that I think are healthy for people to have, Basically.

[Heather McDonald]

One thing I was going to say about the death penalty is I feel like if you get the death penalty in, like, a California where you're probably never going to get to death, it seems like whether you're Scott Peterson or whoever, there's a lot more people that are more engaged in wanting to help you or Innocence Project or whatever, because you might die versus someone that is gonna spend the rest of their life in prison. It doesn't seem like there's as many people that are like, oh, my God, this person has been put away for life, and they're innocent because they're not dying. So it's almost like.

[Matt Murphy]

It almost helps you.

[Heather McDonald]

There are too many of what I.

[Matt Murphy]

Sit on a board where the whole job is to essentially identify. It's in Indiana. It's with Northern Purdue University, where we try to identify people in prison that have been wrongfully convicted. And I've been on the board for five years, and honestly, I've yet to see one. And the guy that is our main vetter, his name's Timmy Murphy, who I love. He actually spent 21 years in prison for murder he legitimately did not commit. And he's the harshest critic. He's like, no, this guy did it. This guy did it. This one's full of shit. And they're hard to find. The system really does. Despite all the heat, the vast majority of time, a person who's in prison for murder committed the murder that they were convicted of.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, I guess the things that would really get someone off is now if they were convicted before DNA, and now there's some DNA that proves that it was a completely different person or the actual person is in the system and happen, you know, like that happens.

[Matt Murphy]

But what you see a lot of times, and I've been in this, I've been doing this for 32 years now. So I've seen, I feel like I've seen it all. But what happens is the standard on appellate reversal is could the new evidence have led a reasonable jury to have reached a different result. So because DNA is so sensitive, a lot of times on those pre DNA cases, you'll have a murder that's committed, say by a homeless guy, and it's a businesswoman and he'll come in and say, we had consensual sex. That's why my DNA was there. But somebody else came along later and killed her. Then DNA comes along, sure enough they find it's called sperm fraction DNA belonging to the defendant. But if she has, like, if she has unknown male DNA under a fingernail, that could be a little boy she patted on the head, the mailman, if she shook hands with him, it could be anybody that's not in the system, that can lead to the reversal of the case. Then they bring it back 25 years later and the files got lost in the great flood of 83. Or Aunt Millie, who was in charge of the evidence room, screwed something up or your main witness is dead. And so they don't pursue it again, that guy gets released. And a lot of times you see people on the Innocence Project coming out going, aha, another innocent man exonerated. And it's not true. The guy actually did do it. And that's a huge percentage of those reversals. Okay, so DNA has freed innocent people, no doubt about it. But a lot of that low hanging fruit that we saw 10, 15 years ago, it doesn't really exist that much anymore. Now it's more nuanced. Certainly does still happen, but it's very rare. And it's a lot more rare than people would like to believe.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, to talk about a little bit about these victims, there's some thought of did they push to. I mean, there's many reasons why you'd push to a plea deal. And two of the families are pleased with it. And those two families are. Maddie, who was the one that most people believe that he was obsessed with, that he went there, maybe he didn't mean to kill everybody. Maybe he didn't know there were six people. Maybe he only thought there was one, you know, because in Maddie's room, she had her own room. But on that day, her best friend, that she'd been best friends since they were 6, you know, was like, oh, sleep in my bed. Whatever. Girls do that. And they were both asleep in the room. And then most likely, I'm guessing the young man who was like, 6 4, which is also so tragic because he not only had a twin brother, he had a triplet sister. They were actually triplets, and they were all in school together. And he probably heard something and then tried to stop it, I'm guessing. And then his girlfriend and he were both done. And the girls downstairs, we finally kind of hear from them, or. I can't remember, we hear from them, or we hear their story of when they woke up at, like, noon. She's like, something weird happened last night. But I don't know if I was dreaming, because they were drinking. It was a Saturday football game. They've probably been drinking since noon, went to bed at 2, saw the guy with the bushy brows, and was like, wait, was that. Like, did I dream that? And we. People who have gotten drunk, you kind of like. So then she calls her other friend and the friend's boyfriend to come over, and it's he who then sees something right away, and he calls 91 1, and he says it's an unconscious person, because he didn't want to say that in front of the girls. But that when that came out and we didn't know and the police were being quiet, as they should, you know, that was such a. Like, why? Why at 12? Why? Why an unconscious person? Why? Why? And it's like, again, I always say, you know, who's to say how you're gonna react in such a way? There isn't a playbook for when you find out that four of your roommates have been slaughtered to death while you were drinking one night.

[Matt Murphy]

That's right. No. And your take on it is exactly what mine is. I think that's exactly what happens. Like Mike Tyson says, everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face. He had a plan to go in there. I think that he. He was focused on one, and the plan fell apart because there was two. There were two girls in the bed. And he. After slaughtering them both, makes perfect sense that Ethan came down and he probably chased him back to the room that he was sleeping in, murdered him there. And so I think your take on it is exactly right. And of course, they're kids. They're college kids. And, you know, for the roommate. And I feel sorry for her because she got a lot of heat. The one that said that I saw a guy with bushy eyebrows. This is a bunch of girls in college. Guys were coming in and out of that house certainly all the time. And so this all. And you're right. You never know how you're gonna react to a situation.

[Heather McDonald]

It's like, even when she called her one friend to say, come over at 11:45am I think something freaky happened last night. She jokingly says to her, okay, should I bring my pepper spray? Like, they didn't, you know, she was just kind of like, I just. She was like, I'm calling upstairs. But something told her not to go up herself. So I think she knew instinctively it was not just, oh, crazy sex last night. And they both passed out. And they were not up at noon, like, I think. But I remember going through it. There was such weird stuff about Xena had ordered, like, Taco Bell. And they were. The two other girls were at a food truck prior. And they were show people. You know, the Internet detectives were seeing. Look at this guy with his hands in his pocket who's also waiting for a burger. Like, maybe it was him. And, you know, now we know it was just this freak that was fixated on her and his car was there and truly is the person that did it. But I was saying, if he was to go to trial, don't you think the defense would have maybe been to spare his life? He only meant to just look at her or something. Maybe he didn't mean to kill her. The two girls woke up and then he killed them both. If you're defending him. And then Ethan comes in and, you know, and then. And now he's killed four people. And he didn't kill the other two girls. So maybe his intent was not to kill all four, even though he did pled that he had premeditated killing all four of them.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, he pled to killing all four as a result of the burglary and with premeditation to go into the house. So the burglary. The burglary is what makes it what's known as a special circumstance. But I'll tell you what.

[Heather McDonald]

He says it was a burglary.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. He said, well, that he went in with the intent to commit a felony therein. That's essentially what burglary requires. And when the DA took the plea, and I've got strong opinions on that.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, let's hear it.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Well, look, so I sat on the Committee in Orange county that reviewed these for 15 years. I've reviewed over 100. Every special circumstance case would go through our committee and we'd make a recommendation to the filing or, say, the elected DA about whether or not to seek death or life in prison. Okay. And in California, it's life without possibility of parole or the death penalty. So you go through those aggravating and mitigating factors, like the case we were just talking about, like the kid that was molested by the stepdad who murders them. That's a huge factor in mitigation. Maybe there's drugs involved. Maybe there's more than one person. And the person on trial was under the dominion and control of somebody who. Like a boyfriend or a husband or somebody. That's really the main actor, the driving force. There's a bunch of different mitigating factors a jury consider. There's fricking zero in this case. Bryan Coburger was a monster. He did this because he wanted to. He was obsessed with Ted Bundy. There's a sexual assault.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, he was obsessed with Ted Bundy.

[Matt Murphy]

With Ted Bundy. That's another.

[Heather McDonald]

It's very Ted Bundy. Ish. Because with the sorority house that.

[Matt Murphy]

That's right. Where. And for those who. I mean, Ted Bondi. Ted Bundy was a monster. But the DA said there was no sexual component in that. I just about jumped through my computer screen when I saw him do that. There is a sexual component to almost every single true serial killer type of murder. And when you go into. He was obsessed with at least one, but I think he was following two of them on social media. And he goes in there with that knife, he's not there to play bingo. There's no ameliorating or mitigating factors that have ever been released that we've heard, other than he may have been somewhere on the autism spectrum, which is a big fact. He may break. There was no.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I mean, you're like getting a graduate degree, so if you're. That you're obviously functioning in the world.

[Matt Murphy]

He already had his master's, so he was a PhD student. So this is a guy who. Right. He's functional. He had a relationship with his parents. He. He was. He was capable of learning. Like, this was not. There was no mitigating factors that. That outweighed the slaughter and the brutality that he put those families.

[Heather McDonald]

So, I mean, there's no. Do you. You don't think we're going to find. They. Obviously. There was no other person that might like, they kind of did with the Giglio murder. Beach murder, like where they're like, oh my God, four years ago there was a girl missing. There's so, I mean, are we pretty much convinced that this was the first time he killed?

[Matt Murphy]

It looks like it was. This was his first rodeo. The reason I say A, he made so many mistakes of leaving the knife. Knife sheath, which is deep, which is.

[Heather McDonald]

Like the nail over there, the little leather thing that would cover the knife.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. And this was a Marine Corps KA Bar knife is what it's called. So this is a vicious stabbing instrument. And what the DA revealed in the plea for the first time was that they had an Amazon purchase for a KA Bar knife. So that's the exact type of sheath it was that we didn't know about before. So a lot of the sleuthing that you're just talking about is a result of the gag order that the court put on that. Because I think that. And there was something that other people did you mean?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, and this is something you could do.

[Matt Murphy]

There's a great documentary for those who haven't seen it called Don't F with Cats.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, I did see it. It was great.

[Matt Murphy]

It's awesome. That's online sleuthing gone, right? Yeah, this is one where they, a bunch of online sleuths put it together and accused one of the professors at that college of doing it, who's totally innocent.

[Heather McDonald]

And that was also Maddie. For a while people were very suspicious of Maddie's ex, ex, current boyfriend, kind of back and forth boyfriend. And they had talked that night and you know, thank God he was cleared pretty soon. But even for a matter of days, do you imagine, like having to go through that? And then also people wondering about, you know, the two young girls and what their mindset were and you know, obviously they're gonna, you know, be screwed up forever.

[Matt Murphy]

Right. But he, the da changing the plan, you know, and there again, there are good reasons to do that. Like the families won't go through the process. The families won't have to suffer through the appellate process. But the way they broke it down in Idaho is that it looks like he's going to get a parole hearing one day. And imagine this guy being out again because it's 10 plus 10 plus 10 plus 10 for the four murders, plus whatever your parole date would be for, for a 10 year max on a berg. So he's gonna do, under current Idaho law, 40 years and a few years before he gets a parole hearing. He's a young man. We want this guy getting out in his 70s and that's a problem. It's not life without possibility of parole. I got a problem with that.

[Heather McDonald]

How is it not life without possibility of parole? I thought it was because it's a.

[Matt Murphy]

Determinant sentence in California. It is. In Idaho. It is not, apparently now. And I got a problem with the way you handled it. I got a problem with the way that the Gonzalez family wasn't in the loop. If what they said is true, that they learned about this in an email and were given, like, 48 hours to be at court in California, that would violate the constitutional rights of those families. And when he got up, when that guy got up and told us even more information, we didn't know. And then started choking up at the end. I don't know if you saw that. Who?

[Heather McDonald]

The da.

[Matt Murphy]

The DA started crying at the end as he's giving Coburger a break. And Coberger again, having done a bunch of these. I tried eight of these myself. I prosecuted 13 serial killers while I was in the unit for the 17 years I was in homicide.

[Heather McDonald]

It's disgusting that there's even 13 on the earth, let alone that you actually prosecuted 13.

[Matt Murphy]

Oh, there's. The FBI estimates that at any given time, there are between 25 and 50 active serial killers in the United States at any given time. Okay. And they're out there. These guys are. They're out there and have been since ancient Rome and even ancient Greece. Amazon one Medical presents painful thoughts.

[Heather McDonald]

I've been on hold to make a doctor's appointment for 23 minutes now. The automated voice has told me 47 times that my call is very important to them. I'm starting to think that they don't think my call is important at all.

[Matt Murphy]

With Amazon One Medical 24. 7 Virtual Care, you'll get help fast without having to remain on the line to make an appointment. Amazon One Medical healthcare just got less painful. This episode brought to you by MGM from executive producer Stephen King and an executive producer of Frog Comes the Institute, a chilling new original series from mgm. Kidnapped and trapped in a sinister facility, gifted teen Luke Ellis must join other children to fight for their survival. Starring Emmy award winner Mary Louise Parker, Ben Barnes, and introducing Joe Freeman. The institute, premiering July 13 on MTN.

[Heather McDonald]

How many women serial killers have there really been? Are those mostly just, like, a weird nurse or poisoning people? It's not. I think maybe because just physically they don't have the strength of men. So, like, what is a female serial killer like?

[Matt Murphy]

So that is a really interesting question. There's a woman of course, famously, Eileen Warnos in Florida, she was a female serial killer who's killing truck drivers.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, that was the movie that Charlie Throne.

[Matt Murphy]

That's right. That's right. So they do exist. And the FBI definition of serial killer is two or more killings committed by the same person at different events. That's a really broad net. Okay, That's. That's pro. That's very, very wide. That includes gang members that can shoot straight. That includes like mercy killing nurses like you just read so. Or my scholar de Leon case. I think the really interesting ones, like this one. There's an old book, I talk about this in my book called Psychopathia Sexualis, which is written by a guy, he's a contemporary of Freud. He was a German psychiatrist in the late 1800s, and he called them sadistic lust murders. So when you're talking about the Dahmers and the Bundys and the John Winn Caseys and the. And the Ted Bundy's or my Rodney Alcala case, the woman of the hour with Anna Kendrick, those guys are sexual predators. And those are. It's a subset of the broad definition of serial killer. But those are really. I have no doubt that Kohberger's one of those. So I was pissed when that DA got up and said there was no sexual component. He can't know that. I think it was inappropriate for him to say that. I've been publicly critical of him that on that before. But for there to be such a disconnect with at least two of those families should never happen.

[Heather McDonald]

What's really interesting about that is because I knew that some of the families weren't okay with it. And then I came across this, which was the mother of the triplets, so the mother of the boy, Ethan, she said, there's no appeal. He will go away. My kids were going to be subpoenaed and some and his friends were gonna be subpoenaed. And I'm glad that they don't have to go through this. She said, we were in contact with the prosecutors throughout it, so they are extremely pleased with this. However, Zina, his girlfriend's parents and family were not happy with it, and they were a couple. And essentially Callie and Maddie were, you know, together, best friends since they were six, which is kind of heartbreaking that they. I seem to be at odds maybe with Maddie's parents because they met when they were six. The families all got along.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, that's the fault of the da.

[Heather McDonald]

You wonder if, like, was there any kind of, you know, you lose the most important thing in your life, your child was there any moment of, like, if she just hadn't lived with Maddie, she wanted to live over here. Like, I don't know. Like, it's just. You don't know what people grasp at in their worst moments and in the doc. So then I. Last night I looked up in the documentary. Cause I was watching it, but there were so many kids talking and stuff, and I didn't finish it. And they both. The families that are not happy with this plea were no part of the Amazon prime doc. Which kind of makes me wonder how much was, like, working together, like, with the documentarian and the DAs. And not that they did anything sinister, but just. It just is kind of strange that the people that were happy with the plea are featured, and the people that are not. Were not chose not to be featured.

[Matt Murphy]

So the thing is, if you're gonna seek. If you're gonna seek life in prison, make that announcement at the beginning. Don't put the families through over a year of this with all of the motions. Remember that and the change of venue and everything that everybody went through. And it's not just about the families. They're the most important element. First thing I would always do in our office when we would have a case like this, first thing we do is meet with the families. I give them my personal cell number because you can give them some solace that at least there's people that care about the case. But that kind of communication and sometimes family members can be tough. But that's a part of the job. And there has to be or there should be a change in circumstance, like some critical piece of evidence isn't going to be admitted, or there's something that has changed in the original assessment that makes you look at it differently. And another thing is, ethically, it's really. And I'm not saying they did this. You don't file the death penalty just to extract a plea. You don't do that. You plead what you prove and you prove what you pled. That was the philosophy of the people that trained me. So when you have a guy that announces that he's seeking death, if you're going to come off it for the sake of the families or whatever, great. But there should be a change of circumstance, and it shouldn't just be, well, now Kohberger's lost all his pretrial motions. So he wants to plead guilty. They all want to plead guilty. None of them want to face the prospect of execution, because the vast majority of these guys are Actual psychopaths. They are the narcissists. Picture it. Narcissists to the extreme. Extreme is what a psychopath really is. The only person they really care about on the planet Earth are themselves. And in the state of Idaho, we have over 700 people here on death row in California, probably never seen another execution. Idaho, they have seven or maybe eight now. So it's a very small number. They have firing squad there. He faced the very real prospect of execution had he been convicted of this. And so, of course he wants to plead. And the big winner that day, I hate to say it, was Bryan Kohberger. And it bugs me.

[Heather McDonald]

I agree. And I talked about this on my Patreon. It was like this guy. Everybody that has a podcast will be reaching out to him. And if he can book interview once or twice a month for the next 30 years, that's something to live for. That's breaking up your week. That's giving you attention. You can change your narrative. You can say you found Jesus. You can get a wife or two, or cheat on the wife that's writing you with a new one like the Menendez. And, you know, Can I add to.

[Matt Murphy]

That a little bit?

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Matt Murphy]

One of the most common things you hear is, well, and this comes from a good place. Most people, I guarantee some of your listeners are thinking this right now. They're thinking, well, I think the worst thing for them would be to sit in a cell and have to think about it for the rest of their lives. They don't think like that. Okay? They do not. They wouldn't have committed the crime in the first place. And there's a picture of Bryan Kohberger that he snapped. It's a selfie. He did two of them. One, he's wearing a hoodie and he looks like a frigging vampire. Another one, right after the murders, he's given himself a thumbs up with this sinister grin. That's Bryan Coburger. That guy is gonna have zero guilt. He's not gonna spend one second in his cell regretting what he did, otherwise he wouldn't have done it in the first place. He's a psychopath. That's the way they think. And this whole idea where we're. You humanize these guys, it is a mistake. It is a mistake. And I hear it all the time. It's like, oh, the worst thing would be to spend time really regretting it. That's thinking like a human. If you think like that, you don't go slaughter four kids in the first place.

[Heather McDonald]

Of course, as A parent. He had parents. He was pulled over with the dad prior to him being arrested, but after the murders for something else. Some, you know, simple violation. Have you ever dealt with parents who are good people that are just horrified that they raised a murderer?

[Matt Murphy]

Okay, so this is another great myth about serial killers. We all think of Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs, right? We think of, you know, the tortured individual who's killing women to wear their skin because he's trying to metamorphosize. And he. And if you read Mindhunter, the book that's based on a real guy, but it's a. He was horribly abused as a child, so he's literally driven insane. And like. So we have this. One of the most common questions I got in homicide was, what could drive them to do that? What could drive them to do that? The grim reality is a lot of these guys are. It's not from abuse. And Coburger had nuclear parents. His biological mom and dad were still together. He had a good enough relationship with his dad that they're driving across country together. I didn't have that when I was 28. You know, like, my dad kicked me out when I was 17. Like, a lot of us don't. And so he had a good family. And you see that when it comes to serial killers over and over and over again. Rodney Alcala, mental level iq, that's the dating game killer. He had a mother who loved him. He had an aunt in his life who loved him. He had a brother who graduated from West Point, became a hero in Vietnam, over and over and over again. They are functional. They have high intelligence. A lot of them. They have girlfriends. They have wives. They are employed. They are functional members of society. They're not doing it because they're compelled out of some horrific abuse. They do it because they get off on it, because it turns them on and because they want to do it to them, to true serial killers, they. This kind of stuff is fun.

[Heather McDonald]

Have you ever talked to parents that are a nuclear family and this happens? And do they come closer together as parents, or do they turn and blame each other? Do they visit the kid? Or are they just like, yeah, you should be behind bars? Like, you are beyond repair? You killed multiple people. Like, I don't even.

[Matt Murphy]

It's important to remember. And, you know, another one is Dahmer. There's some great home videos of Dahmer interacting with his father, even though he was kind of villainized in the. What was it, Netflix? Yeah, the Netflix series. I think that that was kind Of a. It's a trope to try to blame the parents. And at the end of the day, the most common trait that you see in these guys isn't abuse. It's that they were spoiled, that they were indulged as kids. I had another one, Andrew Urdialis. I'm gonna. My next book, we just did our proposal for it, and it's gonna be focused on serial killers. It was a trial we did for six months. This guy was. He was in the Marine Corps and he murdered. He murdered five here in Southern California, probably five more in the Chicago, Indiana area, all women. But he also did multiple tours overseas as a Marine. So I know he has victims over there in the middle of his killings. And he's very prolific, super brutal. And when we. Because of that penalty phase, both the prosecution and the defense, it's almost a race to mitigation. So when you're. When you're working on one of these as a prosecutor, hopefully the detectives have brought you in. You have to make all those calls and find out what happened in this person's life. Because if there really is abuse, we need to know about it now. Because if it's really bad and it's real, and we believe it's real, probably shouldn't seek the death penalty, like if they were really abused as kids. But over and over again, what you do is when you send really good detectives out there and they interview family members who are like, no, there was no abuse. You know, you see that over and over. Urdialis was one of those. And what happened with him? He had a bunch of kids, blue collar family in Chicago. His oldest brother, tragically, was. Was a soldier in Vietnam and lost his life fighting for his country. Right. Heroic brother. The mom took that. She was so devastated by it that she spoiled the hell out of Andrew Urdialis. And it was like first in line at the swing sets. He got everything he wanted as a kid. I think Bundy had a very similar background. Alcala definitely had a similar background. And that's something that you don't see enough in the literature. Like these kids that are indulged and spoiled because then they become young men and the world isn't so kind to them and they are entitled and they take what they want and then they find that they get off on it. I think that that is a component. It's understudied in the literature. I'm hoping to add some chapters in my next book on that because I think it's a fascinating psychological component of it.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah, and also just, you know, we know that he was hunting and seeking them out and looking around the house and, you know, they were just such joyful people. They were cute, they were all friends. They were having this fun life. They were, you know, close part of the frat sorority world. I'm guessing he didn't have that at any time. And that resentment, too, just to add to the psychopath of it all.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. And he. His. Whether he was on the spectrum or not, I mean, he's super high functioning. If he was, I kind of think it was crap. But he also had a drug problem, so he had a lot of the.

[Heather McDonald]

What drugs?

[Matt Murphy]

He was a heroin addict earlier on. Coworker was allegedly.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, I think I hit.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Yeah. So the thing about that is that how much of that social isolation was some poor guy. I didn't hear anything about him ever being bullied, was shunned. And how much of it was just a product of his own bad decision making? Because it really is different. And that's another part of this. That one of the things in the debate. And look, believe it or not, I'm neutral on it. The death penalty for or against? I really think there's good arguments both ways. I really do. But when you hear the whole deterrence argument, that's a straw dog argument. Like, there's no other crime, whether it's burglary or robbery. You never hear that. It's like, well, how do we know that by giving this robber eight years in prison, it determines. Deters other people. Like, you don't hear that anywhere. The death penalty is sought, in my experience, on a case by case basis, for individual justice for that case. And you talk about this. Look at those faces. These were innocent kids. They're all beautiful. They're all at the very beginning of their lives. They're gonna have wonderful lives. They're gonna have families of their own. And the ripple effect that these families are devastating. And for the families that support the plea, I have zero criticism for them, you know, and for the families that we're against it. Again, we can't criticize somebody that they're victims and they are immediate victims. Their lives will never be the same because what happened. And look, in my view, if this went up in our committee, this would have been a death penalty case all day long. And we wouldn't have come off it simply because the defendant wanted to plead, because they all do. And I think that that was. I think it was the wrong call. I think that the prosecution blinked. I think it was a Cowardly move. And I disagree with it.

[Heather McDonald]

And you know, as someone who, you know, does talk about this and this is part of my show, of course I feel so much for the victims. But I also think, and as someone that enjoys watching movies about this, we know there's going to be movies. Yeah, there's going to be a movie in two years. There's going to be a movie in 10 years. There's going to be just like Bundy just by OJ Just like over and over and over again. Because when they would, people know this is what's gonna get sold. This is what people are gonna watch because they are young, they are attractive. It was a sensationalized story. And then sadly, you know, of course the victims families don't have to watch it, but just to see it, to start getting the calls, like five years from now, they're gonna be like, okay, I now have a grandchild and things are moving on. And then it's gonna be like Netflix announces the da da da da. And I just am like, ugh. People don't think about that too, that it's never, when it's a sensationalized case, it's never truly over.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, I've had to think about this in the true crime world. And I think that when it comes to public education, I think it's a really good thing. I think that when it comes to another good part about this plea, which I do kind of like is all those online sleuths, you know, and most of the time, like, I'm all for the engagement.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

Like for people to learn about it and. But for there were some crazy conspiracy theories and the coburger, there's that some name that they started calling themselves and it was like the. And I can't remember exactly meaning they.

[Heather McDonald]

Thought he was innocent or something.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. So it's like, hey, he came into court and pled guilty. Like you were all wrong.

[Heather McDonald]

Yeah.

[Matt Murphy]

You know, all the conspiracy theories.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

He really did do it. All the, all the cell phone people that we heard, the experts that were calling out, you're all wrong. And by the way, the college professor didn't do it. The ex boyfriend didn't do it. The police were right. This was a really good investigation. The evidence was overwhelming. It was always overwhelming. And he would have gone down, especially in a death qualified jury in Idaho. And I think he would have been sentenced to death. Look, it is the highest level of appellate scrutiny, as it should be, especially in a state that might actually execute. But it should be death penalty is something that's very somber. It's very serious. But I, yeah, this is one that just in my view, my opinion, screamed out for it.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, we pray for their families.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Thank you to everybody who said, Heather, you looked so snatched in all your photos from your 10 year anniversary juicy Scoop parties. Well, the secret is Honey Love. Yes. I was wearing my favorite Honey Love Power short. It comes right underneath my boobs. It sucked in my middle, it lifted my butt and it was seamless under the dress. And I was so comfortable. I didn't have that feeling where I was just dying to take it off when I got home. You couldn't see it through the dress. I didn't feel like it was suffocating me. I could eat, I could drink. I absolutely love it. And so I want you guys to know that if you are still dealing with underwire pokes or bras that feel like body armor, it is time for a serious upgrade. And honeylove makes the best wireless bras that feel like a second skin. They're lightweight, they're breathable and perfect for those hot summer days. Whether you're rocking a T shirt, a tank top, a breezy sundress, the bras give you just the right amount of lift without the squeeze thanks to years of research, development and testing. Treat yourself to the most comfortable and innovative bras on earth and save 20% off site [e-mail] juicy use our exclusive link to get 20% off honeylove.com juicy after you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support Juicy Scoop and tell them I sent you. Experience the new standard in bras with Honeylove. Let's talk about something we all deal with bad hair days, but what if those days could become a thing of the past? With Irestore Elite you can say goodbye to thinning hair and and say hello to fuller, healthier locs. The Revive plus Max Growth Kit is like a full on hair care squad that works from root to tip. It includes the Advanced Hair Growth Formula, the Thickening Shampoo, Thickening Conditioner and Growth Activator Serum. Everything you need for healthier, fuller hair. When you combine all of these with your Irestore Elite, you are setting yourself up for serious hair growth results and trust me, your hair will thank you. Give yourself the gift of hair confidence this year for a limited time only, our Juicy Scoop listeners are getting a huge discount on the Iris Tour Elite when you use code juicy [e-mail] head over to irestore.com and use code Juicy Scoop for our show's exclusive discounts on the Iristore Elite. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Hair loss is frustrating. You don't have to fight it alone. Thanks to Irestore. Have you ever used a website platform and given up because you couldn't get the site to look how you wanted? Well, I certainly have and some platforms have very strict templates where you can't break the mold quite literally. Well, Wix.com gives you the freedom to build exactly the site you want for any business idea. WIX puts incredible website creation at your FingerTips with their AI site builder. You answer a few questions and get a personalized business ready site fast. With the Wix.com interface, it's super easy and fun. It's all drag and drop. There's an amazing AI image studio and tons of amazing design effects. WIX has been pioneering in website tech for almost 20 years. These guys seriously understand web design and and what it takes to run your own business. Ready to create your own website? Go to wix.com that's wix.com wix.com to start building your website today. Thanks to Wix for sponsoring our show Juicy Scoop. Okay, now this was. I did not even know about this till this weekend, but there is a case. His name is Rel Valli and the way I understand it is there were two private schools. One I think was Catholic maybe the other one was just non denominational, but so these kids come from means because it's like 19,000 a year. The other one was 22,000 a year or something and the boys were like fighting. Do you know much about this case? Why don't you explain? You could probably explain it better than I, okay. But it got a lot of press because the verdict just came out.

[Matt Murphy]

So. Yeah, and I don't pretend to be an expert on all the details of this, but essentially what happened was it was end of the year high school parties and these guys go to this kid here on the screen, he's 20 now, he goes with a bunch of buddies to one party and they get in a big fight. Then they go to the party of essentially their rival school and there's a second big fight. And this guy pulls a knife out and stabs four of the kids that are involved in the fight, stabbing one in the heart, killing him. And he was a lacrosse player again. And these are horrible. And I've prosecuted these myself in Orange County. Young guys, a lot of ego, a little bit of booze, they start fighting and somebody Pulls out a knife. And it's physiologically, it's a really tragic part of human, the human body. Okay. The majority of people are right handed. Okay. And we are almost completely symmetrical until you get in the inside. And I watched, I saw a bunch of these autopsies with young men who've been killed with knives. Almost all of our really important blood vessels in our heart come out on the left side. So when you're talking about a right handed person and they're swinging at shoulder level, if you get it between the ribs, you, you, it's, it's very common. It, it is.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, it's so, yeah, yeah, that's so interesting.

[Matt Murphy]

And that's what, that's what happened here. So this kid got stabbed. And I've, I've, I've prosecuted these as murder cases, melee, brawl. Some guy pulls out a knife, stabs another kid and that kid will die. And yeah, you get, you get the heart or any of those, any of those really critical blood vessels coming out of the left side of the heart. It's usually over within a couple of minutes. And it is brutal. And so, yeah, so I mean, I.

[Heather McDonald]

Saw some of his testimony. He did take the stand, which we always talk about. You know, do you put your defendant on the stand? And so often it seems like they don't. Obviously it worked in his favor. You know, he was, from what I can tell, extremely remorseful, crying, saying, you know, they were all attacking me and I had the knife and I was just inadvertently going like this to just get them away. Now the prosecutor had his former friend say, you know, like they, the other people involved were all exonerated and they were witnesses for the prosecution. But it was more like he went back to the car and got the knife. Which then would say, it's not like it was on you from cutting open a box at the UPS store earlier. You know, that does make you sound like it was a little bit like you went to the fight with a knife. Whether you left and got another, you did go with a knife.

[Matt Murphy]

Okay, so for your viewers, you went to Louisville. Yes, I went to Loyola. My Christmas dance date and my senior prom date both went to Louisville.

[Heather McDonald]

Congrats.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, thank you. So look, we did the prep school, high school circuit thing. I got in fights when I was in high school. Like this.

[Heather McDonald]

It's a, you don't hear about fights as much though, I have to say, like, knock on wood, like both my sons. There were maybe fights that happened at the brother boys school that my son went to. He was Never really. He was never involved in one. It doesn't seem like it happens as much. It's 2025, we're in LA, everything's litigious, it's harmless. So it's like this was, to me, shocking. This is something that would happen in 1988, minus the knives. But stuff like that did happen.

[Matt Murphy]

But that's the thing, minus the knives. Okay? So having lived in that world, the prep school thing, which we did, going to those parties, which did the Royal Lights, the Crestfield, whatever, fights happen. People have bruises and they have good stories and hangovers the next day.

[Heather McDonald]

Right?

[Matt Murphy]

Who frigging brings a knife? Who brings a knife? And when you pull a knife out and look, I'm reticent ever to criticize a jury's decision. And of course, as an attorney, I accept the jury's decision. This kid is presumed innocent. He was acquitted of the murder, he's acquitted of the manslaughter. That's the way our system works. You know, I accept that completely. That foreperson decided to give an interview and he said that he was very critical of the prosecution, saying essentially they had no evidence of intent to kill. I don't know how much more intent you could have than stabbing somebody with a knife in the heart. Okay. Like swinging it around. That is a deliberate thing. He stabbed four different people. And I.

[Heather McDonald]

The whole defense was self defense.

[Matt Murphy]

Right. More from the perspective of a. K having been at that party when we were kids, who pulls out a frigging knife and starts stabbing people? And so that's why the prosecution went after him for murder. And that's why they haven't dismissed the case and they still have lesser charges that they're going to pursue. He faced up to 60 years because he stabbed four different people. And the. And the. All of the serious charges, essentially, he was acquitted on. Good for him. Maybe he'll have a life. But for the. My heart breaks for the family of that. Of that boy, of course, who was in a high school party and left in a box. And that's an awful thing. And for kids who bring knives to parties to defend your ego. And by the way, the last one of these I prosecuted was. It happened at a New Year's Eve party. And that's exactly what the kid's defense was, and he testified, too, was while I was cutting boxes at my job that day, and that's why I had the knife.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, really?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. And he worked at Calvin Klein School.

[Heather McDonald]

What was the verdict?

[Matt Murphy]

It was one of mine.

[Heather McDonald]

So you won?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, it was A murder. It was a murder verdict. He got life in prison. And by the way, f him. And that family was absolutely brutalized by that. And I mean, that's something that a lot of people don't. And thankfully, most people never experience this. These ruin families. And the term closure is something that. It's one of my pet peeves. It doesn't exist when you're the mother of a murder victim. And it was a New Year's Eve party and there was these. This guy went with his brother and a couple of his buddies and some. A hole. My defendant was having a bad night. He was a rich kid from south Orange county, again, kind of spoiled, had a retail job, you know, and he wanted to pick a fight. And he picked a fight with this. With the weakest kid of this crew, who was, you know, and he'd never been in a fistfight in his life. So he starts. Flicked a cigarette at him. Being that a hole kid not realizing his big brother, who's an Air Force veteran who was there, who's like four years older, had just gotten out of the Air Force and was about to start school, and he stuck up for his younger brother. And the defendant pulled out a knife. Same exact thing swung at him, nicked one of the blood vessels on the left side of his heart. And. And it's not like TV where you get stabbed and people die. The big brother finished the fight, won the fight, knocked the guy out, ran, got about 100 yards away and he didn't know he was dead. And then he collapsed and died. And that family, they were the nicest people.

[Heather McDonald]

And this was the vet.

[Matt Murphy]

This was the veteran Air Force vet.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Murphy]

You know, you get all from cold because some kid wanted to defend his ego with a knife. And by kid, same age, like 19, 20, you know, and like. And he. That family, it destroys them. You know, they moved to Virginia because they. They found horses to be therapeutic. Grew up in Southern California. The sister had a horrible time with it. That the younger brother on the stand, it broke my heart because he had to testify to all that, right? And you know, in his. And in his mind, if he was stronger, if he had. If he was a better fighter or if he, you know, then his big brother wouldn't have been dead. And it was all some. A hole with a knife. Who pulls it out and what should have just been a dust. I mean, the fight shouldn't have happened in the first place. But look, these guys got in two fights in the same night. I don't know. And look, presumed innocent, good for him. However, I know a dozen prosecutors who would have won that. And the four person said there was no evidence of intent. Sorry, buddy. You know, and look, part of that really is, you know, part of the whole defund the police thing is there we need to have good prosecutors. We need to have people with skills and dedication, but they're underpaid and they're under supported. And in the state of California there, every life case, there's an appellate process where every prosecutor is accused of something horrific, some sort of dastardly prosecutorial misconduct that could. That can get you disbarred. And I fear we've reached a tipping point of skill right now with a lot like, we saw this in Diddy, we saw this in Karen Reed, we've seen this in the case of this case.

[Heather McDonald]

Let's get to those. But I will just say a little follow up on this thing is now they will go forward, the victim's family, with civil cases in which they'll sue him, sue his family, sue the people that had the party prior to going to this party, who the parents have provided the alcohol. So, I mean, that's. This is why we never had parties at our house with alcohol. I never could understand when I had friends that were like, well, you know, we just let them have trulies or whatever after prom. And I'm like, what are you doing? Like, why are you having this?

[Matt Murphy]

Like, the minute liability is. Is real on that, especially in a.

[Heather McDonald]

State like California, Explain to my kids, I'm like, this is our family. You will inherit this. If you have a party and something happens, we get sued. So they didn't want the parties. They weren't like, yeah, oh, let me just have all my friends over drink. I knew back in the 80s that it was a liability to have people partying and drinking at my house. And so it's like, I just cannot understand any parent that has even whether. I don't care what you do. Oh, you get two drink tickets. Kids bring in their own alcohol. Oh, we checked all the backpacks. Why are you having the party?

[Matt Murphy]

Right?

[Heather McDonald]

Fuck it. Like, they can wait till they go to college. Like, what are you doing?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, well, and I guarantee the defense of that civil case is gonna be, who thinks anybody's gonna bring a knife to a high school party? That's gonna be. That's gonna be the defense. They're gonna say it's not reasonably foreseeable, that four hotheads are gonna show up armed with a deadly weapon, and they're gonna try to settle whatever beef they start or get started with them with a deadly weapon. That's gonna be the defense.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. Speaking of other kids, this story just came out. There's a 17 year old girl, she's accused of killing her mother and her stepfather and then called 911. There isn't a lot on this except that it was her six year old sister who found them in their room dead. Told the sister, the sister called the 17 year old. They didn't know who did it. It was like a shooting, like a Menendez. And you know, this is a few months ago. So she did speak at the eulogy. I watched the video. You know, I don't know if she used chatgpt to write her eulogy, but it was very well written. It was, you know, I'll miss you. You were so wonderful. She speaks very highly of her stepdad, that he was a wonderful father to her and all this other stuff. And then just a couple days ago, she turned herself in. Apparently her biological dad, I guess, brought her. She turned herself in, responsible for the death of both of these people. But they said they're still looking at other family members and other people, as many as four people that also might be arrested, which is like, what is this? I mean, I'm guessing, did she have a boyfriend that they didn't want her to see anymore? Did some, but it's crazy that she could go on and act normal and everything, much like the Menendez brothers for months and months.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. So this is. And we don't know yet on this, so it's gonna be very interesting. They're trying her as an adult. She faces obviously life in prison if she's convicted. But this rings of a case I worked on in Orange county, my Mullinax case, where it was a boyfriend girlfriend scenario where the mom did not approve of the boyfriend and they murdered her. And she was found in Newport Bay. And this is kind of interesting. So she's naked, the mom, and they dump her in Newport harbor. And all she had was she'd been in the water for a while. So we were having a really tough time.

[Heather McDonald]

When you say for a while, what is that? How many days? Weeks?

[Matt Murphy]

Over 24 hours. Okay, but that's long enough to prune, right?

[Heather McDonald]

Okay.

[Matt Murphy]

And to identify somebody, usually do it with fingerprints if there's been no call to the police. So we have this, this, this woman and her nails were, were, were perfect. She's obviously like, you know, she was.

[Heather McDonald]

Of a certain stature.

[Matt Murphy]

She was, yeah, she was. She. And she Had. She'd had some. Some work done on her boobs. Okay. So she had to see it so we couldn't identify her. And that's where every investigation starts. You have to figure out who the person is, you know, especially if the body's been dumped. And we're in there and we're looking at the photos, and I was at the doc. Cause we'd go to our scenes, and one of these guys, his name was Tom Vote, walks up with a sandwich. He was a great detective. And he walks up, and he wasn't on the case, but he looks and he's like, boob job. And we're tearing our clothes because we can't figure out her identity because the fingerprints didn't work. And we had no calls for a missing woman. And I'll never forget it. He's got a sandwich in his mouth. He's got. He goes, you know, there's a serial number on the. On the implants. He's like, there. And it's unique. And none of us did. And it's like, within 15 minutes, we had her name and the investigation off and running. And that's. That was the. The thing. The boyfriend and the daughter murdered her because she didn't approve of the boyfriend. And they were driving across country, and when the. When the police. I want to say it was in Alabama. When they finally pulled them over, how.

[Heather McDonald]

Did they kill her?

[Matt Murphy]

They stabbed her and. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Like, stabbed her in the home and then wrapped her up and threw her in the.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, threw her in. Threw her in the bay. Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

And did what? What was the final result? Did the girl try to say, I didn't want it and it was all my boyfriend's fault?

[Matt Murphy]

Yes, she did. And said she'd been kidnapped by her boyfriend. And one of the key pieces of evidence in that is she packed her vibrator when they left. And it's like, maybe the first kidnapping victim ever. Hey, wait a second. I want to bring this. So. And when the. When the state trooper in. I think it was Alabama, pulled them over. It's been a while since I looked at this one. But you could hear her in the car on the. On the dash cam, telling the boyfriend, shoot him. Shoot him, to the boyfriend. And then it was like, oh, no, no. She was saying that to the trooper to shoot the boyfriend, which, of course, is nonsense. And then turns out she was completely in on it. She was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

[Heather McDonald]

And so is he, obviously.

[Matt Murphy]

And so is the boyfriend. Right.

[Heather McDonald]

Wow. Yeah.

[Matt Murphy]

So I don't know I'm really interested in the facts on this one. I think the defense. Well, we can anticipate they're going to blame the stepdad and maybe it's true or not. I think that they're going to have problems with that eulogy because if they say that he was molesting her, it's going to be tough for them to come in and, you know, say that. The eulogy.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, the Menendez brothers did a eulogies too, and said what wonderful things about them and how great and, you know, playing tennis and being business. A businessman.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah.

[Heather McDonald]

Speaking of which, what are your thoughts on, since we're talking about young girls who killed their moms, who got their boyfriend to do it, how do you feel about Gypsy Rose and where she is today?

[Matt Murphy]

That's a tough one, right?

[Heather McDonald]

Gypsy Rose Bland.

[Matt Murphy]

So here's the thing. My view on this, and of course, not one of my cases. Gypsy Rose's reasons to murder her mother were real.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

It's called Munchausen syndrome by proxy. And her mother passed her off as being developmentally disabled and having all these things. Her mother was a horrible human being who was. Well, she was mentally ill for sure. And what she put her daughter through was horrific. Okay. So Gypsy Rose getting out is a. I, I understand it. I don't have. I don't have a problem with it because of everything you talk about. We were talking about mitigating evidence and a death penalty. That's a great example of mitigating evidence. My problem with the Gypsy Rose case is her boyfriend, who essentially came into this in a super misguided way, met her online.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, they weren't even, like, believed.

[Matt Murphy]

He was doing a good thing by killing the mom. He's still doing life in prison. And I think that's one of those things. There's a thing in the law known as transferred intent. Like, if you decide to murder me, hopefully I never make you that mad. But if you decide to murder me and you miss and you hit somebody else in the studios, the intent that you have to murder me is transferred to that other person. Okay. I think that you almost have to do the same thing in reverse when you have something like this. If her intent in murdering her mother is ameliorated and it's mitigated, and the slayer here, that she got to do it, you know, believed all that, and it was true. Like, she really was horribly abused by her mother. I think that he needs to get the benefit of that. That's my view.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, it's so interesting. Cause I. She has her own reality show. And I watched a little of it. Cause my friend was like, I'm fascinated. And you know, it is kind of strange. She got a husband. She decided all of a sudden when all the press ended and she was just filming her reality show in their boring Louisiana. Louisiana town, she was like, I don't want this. She gets rid of that husband who looks just like her mother, by the way. Then she goes back to another boyfriend that she had that the viewers all felt were gay, has his baby, now she's divorcing him. And allegedly there's letters where she's writing him saying, I know you're gay, and da, da, da, da. And that while she was in prison, she was one of those women, allegedly, who would, you know, get a lot of men to put money on the books and all that kind of stuff and kind of manipulate this. But, you know, again, you're in prison, what are you gonna do? Like, you're a famous person, you're having guys write you.

[Matt Murphy]

But that's one of the few cases that you'll ever hear him. You say, I kind of feel sorry for the killer. Like, the guy that's. His appeals have been. I think up to this point, they've all been rejected, you know, and technically, legally, for very good reasons. It was a first degree murder all the way.

[Heather McDonald]

And like, yeah, if you were that manipulated, that easy to do it, who's to say who you're gonna get wrapped up with five years from now when you're out? Like, obviously your judgment is horrible.

[Matt Murphy]

Remember that case? I'm sorry.

[Heather McDonald]

Sorry. No, go ahead.

[Matt Murphy]

That case in Texas where it was the same thing. She got the special forces soldier who'd been deployed a million times, got blown up, had brain damage. Yeah, yeah. And he went and committed the murder of her husband. It wasn't real. She'd manipulated him to do it. But that was another one. Honestly, I felt sorry for that guy. I really did. Because he believed that he was. It was his girlfriend from high school. He thought he was helping her. She said that she was horrifically abused sexually by this guy and really manipulated this poor man who's a war hero, and he went in and killed the husband.

[Heather McDonald]

Speaking of that, Sherry Papini came on the show. Everyone knows the story, but it was very similar in that she shared with her boyfriend that she was just doing communication on the phone with her old boyfriend, but she was talking to her on the phone. Allegedly. She shared that she wasn't in a good marriage now. Now she's Coming. She came on my show, said she did, was talking to him, never meant to see him that day, did not intend to get in his car, did not intend to go to Costa Mesa. I always thought again. So he said I was doing the right thing. I was being a friend to her. When she said, beat the crap out of me and throw a hockey up my nose. Hockey, pick up my nose or whatever, a hockey stick. Burn me with the hobby Lobby branding to make me look like that, I was always like, look, Yes, I don't think she's telling us all the truth now or then. I really don't. However, what kind of guy agrees to do that? So I always thought that was very, very bizarre. And you know, dumb ones.

[Matt Murphy]

What Dumb ones. And we do see that, we see that quite a bit like my Naposky case, my Bill McLaughlin, the one that was at Balboa Cove.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, how we first met because I was renting the house down the street.

[Matt Murphy]

You're like four houses down the road. That's one where extremely manipulative, horrific woman named Nanette Johnston, who manipulated this, this dummy named Eric Naposki who played for the NFL and same sort of thing, she convinced him that she was being sexually assaulted, we believed by Bill McLaughlin who never abused her in any way, gave her a awesome place for her kids, was kind to her daughter and to her son and he's very wealthy and it was all about stealing from her.

[Heather McDonald]

But also, I do think, just like you say, when there's a financial gain to it, in that particular case, once he got rid of the horrible banber, heard they were looking for houses, they knew that he knew he was going.

[Matt Murphy]

To benefit and he knew she would too. Was too. But he bought into it all and he was manipulated and he deserves everything he gets. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's a good guy at all. I'm saying that the guys that these women get to do their dirty work, for lack of a better term, are. They tend to be really dumb. And Papini, that guy, he was, he, he meant well and he didn't kill anybody. But you know, my problem and Sherry Papini is not a one off. There are women, this is a thing where they will stage kidnappings. There's another one in Georgia, very famously the problem.

[Heather McDonald]

Oh, was that the girl that said, I saw a baby on the side of the road? Yes, that one.

[Matt Murphy]

And it's almost, almost a trope, right? Like they, it's almost like they go to school for it. She left Her Walkman on the side of the road or her, you know, her Walkman icat or whatever it was. I know I'm aging myself there. Her Walkman, whatever. Her mobile listening musical device was on the side of the road. And that's exactly what Sherry Papini did. And it was Stitch. I've done some commentary on that case. I've researched that case and that's a great guest. I'm glad she came onto the show.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I.

[Matt Murphy]

However, she's full of shit if she says that the guy just happened to be there. He lived in Huntington beach, they were in Northern California. Absolutely. There's. And I gotta confess, I didn't watch that episode yet.

[Heather McDonald]

If you've aired it, I know I did air it. I feel like in talking about it, if she really wanted to tell the truth, I think I would forgive her and I would believe it if she said this. I was talking to this guy because I was in a shitty marriage and I liked the attention. It was an extracurricular thing that I could look for forward to and you know, and then it was like, okay, let's meet, let's whatever. And what. How would my husband. That doesn't treat me well. That is not into me. How would he react if I went missing? Then he would love me, then he would care for me. I think if the intent was to go away for a couple days and then it got out of hand and went to 22 days. I think the intent was not to be famous. I think the intent was to try to make her, her husband realize that she is so valuable and like have this like moment. And I think the whole plan went awry when she saw how much publicity she was getting. And either then he then got weird realizing you've now put me in a place where I could be a kidnapper. So now you're not gonna leave. But I still don't feel. Even though she sat right across from me, I don't feel like she was telling me all the truth.

[Matt Murphy]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

And I'm bummed that I didn't ask her about the haircut.

[Matt Murphy]

Well, if you ever get her back on, let me know and I'll put together some cross examination questions for you that I would love to ask.

[Heather McDonald]

I want to ask about that. So her hair, which was like my length, was then chopped. And I always thought that was weird when she said I was kidnapped by two Mexican women. So I'm like, if they were looking. Cause they thought you were 15 and they wanted to traffic you, why would they cut your Valuable hair. But then when we find out later, well, she said he was into S and M and that's why she was beaten and all his creepy stuff. I'm like, who cut your hair, though? Like, that's not part of S and M. And then someone was like, Heather, it was like a cute bob. It wasn't like it was self cut, but it wasn't like she shaved her head or chopped it like a Barbie doll. So I don't know.

[Matt Murphy]

The California jury instruction that every juror gets, which is from 500 years of common law experience, and that is if somebody tells you one lie, you as a jury, you're entitled to believe anything you want that they say after that. And you're also entitled to disregard literally every single other word out of their mouth. Share Papini is one of those. I think Lyle and Eric Menendez are another example of that. Liars who lie, who lie. My problem with the Papinis of the world is, number one, they suck up. Our friend Dr. Drew would say it is the ultimate display of narcissism for them to do that. But what they do is they suck up incredibly scarce, valuable resources. When there are real victims out there and they have police, those are all hands on deck kidnapping things. I've worked those before. It's. You have the FBI coming in, you have like every cop in the area drops what they're doing with real victims and real crimes, trying to find that, that person. So it's a tremendous waste of resources. But the real problem is when you have real victims on hard cases. When you, when jurors go in and they sit down and everybody remembers the Sherry Papinis, they're far more likely to indulge in wild theories and wild defenses that go to the pure detriment of actual victims of kidnappings and sexual abuse.

[Heather McDonald]

Like the couple who really. Where the girl really was kidnapped.

[Matt Murphy]

Yes, that's right. That's right. Like central, Central California. And that's, that's the, that's the effect of that woman's narcissism. And her, and her, her husband seemed like everything he was doing was appropriate, you know, like he was doing public pleas trying to get her home. It seemed like he really did love her.

[Heather McDonald]

Now she kind of says that, you know, he came in and he was miked the minute he saw her, you know, and I don't know and I don't care. Like, it was hard, though. It was interesting when she was talking to me, you know, because she was a guest, you know, I wanted to.

[Matt Murphy]

Get as much out, you want to be polite.

[Heather McDonald]

But then when I listened back before publishing it, I. I did. It's when someone's looking at you in the eye, it's like, she lied to my face. It's easier to believe than when you're actually listening with no visual. Which I thought was fascinating, that I was like, oh, okay, I would love.

[Matt Murphy]

To cross that woman. And you have a bigger heart than me. I have zero freaking sympathy for her.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, I was always like. There were things. I've talked about it. There were things that I was like. And then when she reached out to come on the show, I was like. I knew she was kind of making the rounds, but I still was like, I've spent so many hours talking about this. I shared about how I had, like, a template for a movie idea of, like, a comedian that fakes her own kidnapping just to, like, you know, get some press on hard copy. Like, I thought so. To me, it was always fascinating as a woman that needs attention. But getting to this, we'll move on. The Menendez brothers could have their murder conviction thrown out. This was today's tmz. I don't know if there's any more on this or if they just like to tease us with it for a headline every once in a while. What's the latest?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah, I don't see that happening. The Ninth Circuit, for your viewers that are interested, there's a Ninth Circuit opinion on this that is scathing about the Menendez brothers, how much they lied, that affirmed their. Their original conviction, and they were very lucky to get this, to get their resentencing. My problem with this is that a lot of people who advocated for them after watching the Netflix special believe they were advocating for victims of sexual abuse, and they received life without possibility of parole. The people that are serving prison time with life without possibility parole are the worst of the worst. It means that they were. Most of them are special circumstance murderers. Some of them are kidnappers, like my Nyeree case, where they severed the penis in the desert. They're the most violent, the most brutal, and they're all lining up now in California for their resentencings as a result of this. So the precedent. We exist in a system with what's known as stare decisis. So it's what came before. We base our rulings and our law on other cases. It's called precedent. This sets a horrific precedent. I know this is controversial among some of your viewers that love the Menendez brothers. I'm not a fan. I think that they. And if you take it at its absolute worst, let's say Jose Menendez did everything they said and more. There's no reason you don't get a free murder of the mother. And each one of them is an individual. People talk about them as being the parents, and she had a right to live. And Lyle Menendez reloaded the shotgun and put it to her face and literally blew her face off. She was still alive somehow, after receiving multiple shots. And then they proceeded to lie to everybody, from the detectives to the 911 operator. And the only reason Lyle didn't testify in the second trial was because he was caught on a hot mic with a court groupie. Everybody forgets this, where he was bragging about how well he lied during the first trial. So again, like Papini, when you got people that lie, lie, lie, again, get caught in lies. They lied about the shotguns. There's a. The prosecutor. One of the two in the original trial was a guy named Lester Kuriyama. And it was something that they trained us in in the DA's office because he caught Eric in the lies about the shotguns and obtaining the shotguns. It's called putting the witness in a box. And he got. These guys lied over and over and over again. They had cell phones in their possession in the months leading up to it. I know Mark. Gary Ghost is a. I like Mark. We get along great. We've done a bunch of panels together. We had cases together back in the day. Mark, I think, is a fine defense attorney, but he's doing a job, you know, and, you know, good for these guys. They, you know, they did 35 years.

[Heather McDonald]

I do think if they got out, I definitely don't think they'd be a danger to society. But I understand how the law works. Karen Reed, she got a book deal. Now, we know a book deal comes. We know a TV show. And all these other things will probably come as well, either with her being a part of it or someone just writing from afar along with unpopular opinions. I'm gonna let you share yours. Now, what did you think of the whole thing?

[Matt Murphy]

Okay, so, number one, I gotta preface it, she's presumed innocent. You know, that's the way our system works. She was acquitted. Good for her. Okay, what breaks my heart about this case is that the man that died here, everybody forgets he adopted his sister's two kids. So his sister's kids, his sister and her husband were killed in a tragic car accident. This is a good guy.

[Heather McDonald]

No, they didn't die in a car Accident.

[Matt Murphy]

Didn't they die in a car accident?

[Heather McDonald]

No, the, the sister died first and then like months later the husband died of like, the sister was sick and then months later the husband died of like a heart attack.

[Matt Murphy]

Okay, I stand. Correct.

[Heather McDonald]

And he did. He was raising the kids.

[Matt Murphy]

He adopted the kids.

[Heather McDonald]

Right. And I think he was great. That still doesn't mean that if she didn't do it.

[Matt Murphy]

Of course.

[Heather McDonald]

What did you think of all. I mean, I can see why they ran with thinking that she hit him with a car for a number of reasons, including her saying it on the scene.

[Matt Murphy]

Because she hit him with the car also.

[Heather McDonald]

Well, what about the late. What about the woman that said he was not hit with a car? Emphatically. I thought that was a pretty great moment.

[Matt Murphy]

Again, she's presumed innocent. I know Alan Jackson, the defense lawyer. He's a buddy of mine and he came up. I was in Orange county, he came up in the ranks. He is an immensely talented trial lawyer. He's a good dude. He's the real deal. And I think that the prosecution, from the very beginning, they over filed the case. Originally they went for a first degree murder because of all the acrimony and the problems in their relationship. And the 53 voicemails, you know, where she kept saying, and I don't think I'll ever hear the term again. And I can swear on your show, right, Motherfucker, Motherfucker. You know, that's worth a listen just for, you know. She clearly believed that he was alive afterwards because she kept leaving these voicemails.

[Heather McDonald]

The only thing I was gonna say. Cause this is the way I think about things. So I do think what she left. She thought he was in the party. Okay, this is one theory. And then left all those messages again. Just like the young girls at the Idaho house when you've had lots of drinks. And then when she woke up then at 4:45am and he wasn't there. If I thought I left my fucker boyfriend, who's a swinger or whatever at the house and he wasn't there at 4:45, I would still be like, okay, like we're done. I wouldn't immediately panic and think, something must have happened at that house, I better call my friends to come pick me up and take him. But I think she panicked because I think there was one moment if just. Karen, Karen Cole. Just give me a minute. If there might have been one minute in the back of her mind as she was leaving angrily, that he might have. He might have gotten in a fight in the house. He might have walked out. And just at that moment, he was like, wait. And then she inadvertently felt like she hit something. Didn't really didn't stop or think, and was like, fuck it. So drunk, drove home, yelled all the messages, went to bed, woke up, and then a few hours later, still drunk a little bit, but remembering, I think something bad happened. Because otherwise you would just be like. And on top of it, you never came home. Like, you wouldn't. What would make you think that something bad happened at a house party besides you having sex with a girl that isn't you?

[Matt Murphy]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

That's the only thing. And I also think it's interesting that all the people that they do think is responsible for it, the McCabe girl and the Alberts, that they did interviews after. I'm kind of like, if I knew I was seen as somewhat of a suspect after I gave testimony and the whole world thinks that my family is in this conspiracy, I wouldn't be doing interviews. But who knows?

[Matt Murphy]

Or you might be, because that Turtle Boy guy had people picketing in front of your house, and you've been accused of a murder you didn't commit, and you'd want to set the record straight. And by the way, you got a bunch of cops inside a house, and they murder somebody inside, and their grand plan of getting rid of the body is to dump them in the snow in the driveway.

[Heather McDonald]

I mean, that's the other thing.

[Matt Murphy]

That's absurd.

[Heather McDonald]

Okay. The other thing I'm thinking, which we'll never know. The only person that knows what happens is the dog. Okay? Dogs. Once AI can figure out what a dog is thinking, think how many crimes will solve, okay? From OJ to whatever. But the other thing I was thinking is, if you want to say that somehow, yes, he was beaten up, but yes, a car hit him without intent. Like, just being drunk and hitting.

[Matt Murphy]

Right.

[Heather McDonald]

I always wondered if they got in a physical fight. The dog scratched him. They got in a physical fight, but he left with his two feet. Walking out. Something happens. He either collapsed or the car hit him and he's on the ground. Then the Higgins guy leaves and is like, holy shit, what the fuck? Just, like, he left. He was fine. Like, yeah, I hit him. But, like. And that's when he starts calling Albert. And that's when they stay in the house when the cops come, because they. They didn't know that they killed him. But something happened between him getting hit in the house and him walking out of the house. I don't think he died in the house. And they lifted him up and placed him there. I don't.

[Matt Murphy]

This was a botched investigation and it was a botched prosecution from the very beginning.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

And against an immensely talented defense lawyer who outgunned the prosecution from the word go in both trials. And that's, you know, and I think that that accident. Accident that you were talking about is the last time I was on the show and I got, I got tons of heat from your juicy viewers. Okay, so.

[Heather McDonald]

You will do. We will again.

[Matt Murphy]

We've done a million of these, okay. This is so average. It's been. All the drunken accident that kills somebody are a dime a dozen everywhere. And she was on video at the falls. She had a million frigging drinks. She had a very high blood alcohol level when in the data recorder on the car. She had a 74% acceleration rate going backwards, which is punching it. You put all those pieces together, but they over filed it as a first degree murder, which it clearly never was. So the question in cases like that is, is this a gross vehicular manslaughter, which is an accident, or is it an implied malice murder, which is also an accident? There's. And so they misfiled it. They misprocessed.

[Heather McDonald]

So do you think, do you think if at the time she's freaking out, I can't believe I hit him, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they were like, we're arresting you for manslaughter. And then she gets an attorney to defend her on manslaughter, not first degree murder. What in your opinion say that was the case because she's drunk and she doesn't remember and she believes that it's what she thought when she Woke up at 4:45am what would you think the result would have been? Like three years in prison.

[Matt Murphy]

First of all, we never hear about this case. This happens. This happens every weekend somewhere in the United States where somebody died.

[Heather McDonald]

What do you think she would have gotten hit?

[Matt Murphy]

Somebody hit some kid on a bike on accident. These are accidental deaths, okay? And look, she was acquitted of even that. So I gotta say, yeah, she's presumed innocent. She's innocent.

[Heather McDonald]

Killing out the dm.

[Matt Murphy]

I'm an attorney.

[Heather McDonald]

But what do you think she would have gotten had they never gone for first degree? Like do you think they would have settled and she would have done like a couple years?

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. So this would be the. And it depends on the state, but a gross vehicular manslaughter or somebody who's intoxicated, who hits somebody, you know, again, state by state, they'll wind up getting, you know, that's typically like, you know, somewhere in the, in the, in the five year range, you know, maybe they're out in three because it's an accidental death where they're drunk. That's what you see a lot. Some version of that. And again, the sentencing range depends on state by state. Okay, right. Like that's. I think it's 11 years in California is, is the, is the penalty for gross. I could be wrong on that. And I think they've changed it recently. But somewhere in there, and then you do. Sometimes you'll do 50%, so that'd be five and a half years actual. Sometimes there's a range of sentences that are available, but that's the type of thing that you see. Somebody accidentally hits a kid on a bike and maybe it's the first DUI or they're drunk and they're trying to make a phone call on their cell phone. Accidents happen all the time. Drunken accidents happen. Somebody dies in every state, every weekend in a case like this. But the reason why there was so much. She's pretty. Jackson is amazing. Alan Jackson. And they, they went with this first murder theory of a police officer in the snow. And then that's where the sensation comes. And, you know, then we have the conspiracy theories and the online sleuths and, you know, and we're off to the races. We never would have heard about this if the prosecution had handled it correctly.

[Heather McDonald]

Right.

[Matt Murphy]

And it would have been absolutely average if the police had had done the investigation the right way.

[Heather McDonald]

Last thing, Diddy. He's being sentenced October 3rd. My question is, why do they do that where they keep him in prison for several months? Is it because they think he's not gonna get that much time? So at least he was in prison for like a year throughout it. What is the motivation? Why is it three months away?

[Matt Murphy]

Okay, so a couple. Could be a couple different things. But in the federal system, judges place a great deal of weight on. On essentially the federal probation department will do an assessment and they will make a sentencing recommendation for the Mann act violations here. So that federal judges tend to place a lot of weight in the federal probation department's investigation and they will almost always go through that process. I think the reason why the court didn't release them immediately is either the court intends to impose more time or I think, and just this is pure speculation by me. Remember when he was using other prisoners code numbers to call people from the jail? Remember when you got in trouble for that? That is the type of Stuff that pisses judges off. Because if you can't follow the rules in jail, judges, especially federal judges, tend to take that personally. Like. And that's why you think they're giving.

[Heather McDonald]

Them a leash, a long leash to fuck up?

[Matt Murphy]

No, no, I think that when he did that, when he did that originally he pissed off this judge.

[Heather McDonald]

And that's why.

[Matt Murphy]

Yeah. Now that's my guess. But look, man. The man act is a morality crime. It's a prostitution crime. It's something that was designed essentially to try to go after pimps around the turn of the century. And this was like, this is prohibition era type stuff. It is every lonely divorced guy in New York City, where I've been spending a bunch of time for the ABC stuff lately, who gets divorced and pays for an Uber for some sex worker to come across from New Jersey across the bridge, that's technically a man act violation. It is some of the least offensive crimes. It's a morality crime. And I could be wrong here. I just can't imagine a big.

[Heather McDonald]

Sentence.

[Matt Murphy]

A big sentence. Can I tell a funny story along with this? Okay, so now that I'm. Since I'm spending all this time in New York, I've been meeting all these fancy people, okay? And I got a friend who knows this billionaire guy who has a party over 4th of July weekend and I get invited to it and they've got this awesome rhythm and blues band from New Orleans. And it's, you know, it's what you'd expect. It's in the Hamptons, which is super fancy. And you've been there. I'd never been there before, like last summer. And it's like, it's where all the rich people go from New York in the summertime. So I'm at this crazy party and I'm standing next to this kid who's watching the music and we strike up a conversation. Couldn't have been nicer, couldn't have been more respectful. And we're talking about the music. And my friend who was our, she goes, hey, do you know who that is? That's Diddy's son, Quincy. And so, and I just gotta say.

[Heather McDonald]

Is he the oldest one?

[Matt Murphy]

I don't know where he fits on a bed four year viewer, there's two.

[Heather McDonald]

Or three, regardless of Quincy, Justin and Christian.

[Matt Murphy]

I think, yeah, regardless of how anybody feels about Diddy. And I know that passions run deep on that for very good reasons. Quincy, in my 30 minute conversation, couldn't have been a nicer kid, for what it's worth.

[Heather McDonald]

But you also aren't a cute girl on a yacht partying hard and being in a vulnerable position.

[Matt Murphy]

I have very little to worry about when it comes to baby oil.

[Heather McDonald]

There are busboys all over LA that said OJ was the nicest guy in the world. You weren't. Nicole.

[Matt Murphy]

Very true.

[Heather McDonald]

Speaking of which, thank you so much for coming. And for people that still have not bought your book and want a good juicy book to read the book of murder. Where can they get it? Where can they follow you?

[Matt Murphy]

So Matt Murphy Law on Instagram and I will respond to all of the DMs. If anybody wants to find me, follow me and send me a dm. I will respond. Please be kind. Last time I just got ripped on the comments for my thoughts on Karen Reid before she was acquitted.

[Heather McDonald]

Please don't hold mean comments against me. I don't control what people write. My guess. Right?

[Matt Murphy]

Right. A lot of passion out there. It's available everywhere. It's Disney Books. It's Hyperion Publishing, but Amazon. It's also the Audible. And this is again, really beautiful.

[Heather McDonald]

I've read the Audible for a long time.

[Matt Murphy]

I read it myself. 4.9 stars still and Disney's happy. It's sold a bunch. I just submitted the proposal for my next book on serial killers. We submitted it Friday.

[Heather McDonald]

Love it.

[Matt Murphy]

So yeah, hopefully it goes well. But this chronicles my career in the Homstad unit. I talk about the things I learned. I kind of take the reader through the 17 years I spent the different kinds of murder cases. The stuff I did, I did the Golden State Killer case. That's actually not in the book. Rodney Alcala is though Dating Game Killer. Tom and Jackie Hawks, Ed Shen, some of my more notable cases.

[Heather McDonald]

Thank you so much. I always appreciate when you come. You're a great friend.

[Matt Murphy]

I love being here.

[Heather McDonald]

This was great. Thank you Everybody. Go to heathermcdall.net to get your tickets to my show in Vegas. It is selling out quick, so go get that. November 14th heathermandal.net thank you. Bye.