My Gay Husband and The New Bachelorette Controversy

Summary

Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

Episode: My Gay Husband and The New Bachelorette Controversy
Date: September 11, 2025

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Overview & Main Theme

This episode of Juicy Scoop features Host Heather McDonald diving into two ultra-juicy topics: the headline-making casting of Taylor Frankie Paul as the new Bachelorette, and an in-depth interview with Jessica Frew, author and coach, about her extraordinary marriage journey discovering her husband was gay, navigating their divorce, and building a positive, blended family post-divorce within the context of the Mormon church. The episode blends pop culture hot takes with heartfelt, candid explorations of marriage, family, faith, and personal growth.

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Hot Topics Recap

The Taylor Frankie Paul Bachelorette Controversy

Starts: (00:30)

• Heather dishes on the new casting of TikTok/Mormon influencer Taylor Frankie Paul as the next Bachelorette on ABC.
  • Taylor's notoriety stemmed from her confessional on the TikTok group (“MomTok”) about “soft swinging”—Mormon women experimenting and the group imploding when people caught feelings.
  • Taylor’s relationships: married young, two kids with first husband, divorce, then second relationship, another child, another split, now a single mother of three and the Bachelorette.
  • “This is extremely juicy genius, I think, to ignite into the franchise of what is the Bachelor, the Bachelorette, the Golden Bachelor and the Golden Bachelorette.” (03:34)
  • Heather contrasts the decision with the franchise’s usual tendency to recycle past contestants, lauding ABC for breaking the mold.
  • Juxtaposes with controversy over “MomTok” viral personalities and their supposed “cancelations” (e.g., Dancing with the Stars casting).
  • Heather plugs her true crime spin-off, Juicy Crimes, touching on influencer controversies (“You’re gonna subscribe to Juicy crimes, you’re gonna leave a review…” (04:11))
• Reflection on how “cancelled” figures can rebound, citing how “life can work out, girls”.
• The Bachelorette Franchise’s Revitalization:
  • Heather sees Taylor’s casting as a revitalizing move for the franchise, noting it introduces real drama, star power, and diversity (mother of three, ex-Mormon, influencer).
  • Hype for the upcoming Golden Bachelor, revealing her close friend Maya is a contestant: “She is on the Golden Bachelor and her name is Maya… it’s gonna be good.” (08:00)

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Interview: Jessica Frew — “My Gay Husband”

Starts: (10:55)

Jessica Frew shares her jaw-dropping story: marrying young within the Mormon church, learning her husband was gay, walking through divorce, and eventually finding strength and new love. Her upcoming book “Shove Your Shoulds” explores how she rebuilt her identity and helps others face big life pivots.

Jessica’s Background & Mormon Upbringing

(11:45-15:22)

• Born and raised in Idaho in a “very conservative Christian religion” (LDS/Mormon).
• Describes large Mormon communities in Idaho with playful specifics like “dirty sodas.”
• Married first husband, Steve, at age 20 after meeting at Idaho State University (not BYU).
  • “Very much typical in the Mormon Church to get married very quickly.” (14:12)
• Married/sealed in the Mormon temple; explains the significance of “sealing” (eternal marriage, family sealed in afterlife).

Handling Divorce & Mormon Doctrine

(15:46-17:41)

• Explains the complex process of “canceling” a temple sealing after a divorce—men can be sealed to multiple women, but not vice versa.
• Points to the high (and surprising) rate of divorce in Mormon communities.

Beginning of the “Gay Husband” Revelation

(17:52-21:42)

• Five years into marriage, one daughter together.
• Discovered Steve was gay via gay porn pop-ups on the computer.
  • “Are you gay? Like, Steve, are you gay? And--he’s like, no. I just felt it was better to not disrespect women. […] This is like how deep in denial he was.” (18:53)
• Two years in, Steve attended therapy where a counselor told him directly: “You’re gay and until you accept and love that about yourself, you’re going to struggle with all these other things.” (19:50)
• Jessica describes their intimacy as “very healthy”—about 3-4 times a week.
  • “I talked to my friends…and they’re like, we’re not having that much sex…and they didn’t know Steve was gay.” (20:42)

Coping with His Emerging Identity

(22:04-23:55)

• Family largely unaware at first; only Steve’s mom told a year pre-divorce—"She was a mess."
• They move to Belize for Steve’s hotel management job; describes “no real gay life there,” which helped stabilise their marriage.

The Affair & Breakdown

(35:20-39:00)

• Jessica recounts sensing something was wrong post-family trip.
  • “I felt sick. Like, I could just tell something was totally different.” (34:23)
• She checks Steve’s email and confesses. Steve immediately admits to having had an affair with a man—his first sexual encounter, first time drinking.
  • “Jessica, you have no reason to be sorry. I had an affair with a man. I was with him the whole weekend when you were gone. I’ll tell you anything you want to know.” (35:18)
  • “This has never felt so right. Like, I’ve never felt something so right in my life, except for the fact that I know it's going to hurt you so badly.” (37:03)
• Jessica insists on meeting the man, has a dinner with Steve and his lover.
  • “He was the most gentle, kind man…Steve was just like a ghost…pure white sitting at that table.” (40:28)
  • The affair partner sobs, tells Jessica: “I just told him to stay with you. I’ve always wanted a wife and kids and if I could have found someone as accepting as you, I would have done that.” (42:33)

Aftermath: Divorce, Co-parenting, & Family Dynamics

(43:34-45:53)

• Divorce process was fast and amicable; Jessica returns to Boise with their daughter, Steve signs whatever’s needed.
• Jessica fosters healthy boundaries:
  • Encourages family (including her brother) to welcome Steve for the sake of their daughter: “Steve’s gonna be at her birthdays, and he’s gonna be at holidays…” (45:10)
  • They reunite for family photos, supporting their daughter’s sense of security amidst big changes.

Attempting Reconciliation & Self-Discovery

(45:57-51:51)

• Jessica and Steve briefly attempt to rekindle their marriage.
  • Steve moves back to Boise, but their relationship unravels: Steve drinks behind Jessica’s back, continues dating men, and the “attraction [to Jessica] was just gone” post-affair.
  • “I want someone that wants all the girly parts and all the things…Ultimately, I was like, I can’t do this.”
• Jessica is honest about the emotional complexity:
  • “Why do I need him to want me? Like, why is this such a big deal?—That’s like what a marriage is.” (51:02)

Meeting and Marrying Husband #2, Matt

(51:54-66:09)

• Meets Matt, another Mormon, at church (after seeing him with Steve on mountain biking outings).
  • “I saw Matt, and I was like, I’m gonna marry that guy. I was like, that’s my future husband.” (50:15)
• Matt and Steve become friends, further blending family structures.
• Jessica patiently pursues Matt, who is also recently divorced (and dating another Jessica).
  • After months of persistence, Matt breaks up with the other woman and proposes; he and Jessica are married eight weeks later.
• Blending their families brought more challenges than divorce itself.
  • “Blending families and co-parenting and second marriage is the hardest thing I’ve ever done.” (71:23)
  • Candid stories about false abuse allegations, custody exchanges at fire stations, and complex stepfamily navigation.
  • “I would rather lose him [Matt] than lose who I was. I can’t—it’s not something I’m willing to give up.” (72:40)

Co-parenting, Step-parenting, and Found Family

(66:23-75:19)

• Matt and Steve’s positive co-parenting relationship:
  • “They are so good together.” (66:23)
  • The three co-hosted a podcast, Husband in Law.
  • All live near each other; Steve’s past partner was welcomed into the family.
• Both speak openly about the psychological work, communication, and boundaries needed to ensure their children thrive.

Leaving the Mormon Church & Redefining Faith

(52:13-60:25)

• Jessica recounts her gradual distancing from church after wrestling with church views on homosexuality (e.g., Prop 8) and the treatment of women.
  • “If I believe the things I believe about God… the way we’re taught in church doesn’t feel like love to me.” (58:22)
  • “Steve as Penny’s dad would never have the same privileges or experiences as me within the church if he came back, and that just doesn’t sit right.” (59:34)
• The importance of building community—even when leaving a tight-knit faith.

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Jessica’s Book: “Shove Your Shoulds”

(75:19-78:31)

• Written to empower women to reconnect with themselves through values-driven decision-making and breaking free from outside judgment/advice.
• Insights on:
  • The power and process of making aligned decisions post-divorce or crisis.
  • The loud “shoulds” from friends, family, and culture—how to recognize and discard them.
  • “We get stuck in those emotions and they’re not leading us towards what we ultimately want.” (76:15)
• Book available at shoveyourshoulds.com
• Jessica is active at @heyjessicafrew on Instagram.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Are you gay? Like, Steve, are you gay?” —Jessica to her first husband (18:53)
• “Jessica, you have no reason to be sorry. I had an affair with a man…I’ll tell you anything you want to know.” —Steve’s confession (35:18)
• “This has never felt so right. Like, I’ve never felt something so right in my life, except for the fact that I know it’s going to hurt you so badly.” —Steve reflecting on his affair (37:03)
• “I want someone that wants all the girly parts and all the things…that’s what a marriage is.” —Jessica on realizing her needs (51:02)
• “They are so good together. It’s been a journey…” —Jessica on Matt and Steve’s friendship and co-parenting (66:23)
• "If I believe the things I believe about God...the way we’re taught in church doesn’t feel like love to me.” —Jessica on leaving Mormon doctrine (58:22)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• (00:30) – Taylor Frankie Paul Bachelorette controversy
• (08:00) – Golden Bachelor excitement
• (10:55) – Interview with Jessica Frew begins
• (17:52) – Discovering husband’s sexuality
• (34:23) – The affair revelation
• (40:28) – The dinner with Steve’s lover
• (45:53) – Co-parenting after divorce
• (50:15) – Meeting future husband Matt
• (52:13) – Leaving the Mormon church
• (66:23) – Matt and Steve’s ‘Husband-in-Law’ relationship
• (75:19) – Writing “Shove Your Shoulds” and resources for women

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Tone & Takeaways

• Heather maintains her signature frank, irreverent, and empathetic tone, pushing for curiosity and clarity in both pop culture gossip and deep personal narratives.
• Jessica is admirably candid and thoughtful, frequently focusing on empathy, emotional responsibility, and healthy boundaries.
• The episode delivers both tabloid-worthy juiciness and genuinely helpful advice for anyone navigating faith, sexuality, divorce, or blended families.

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For more on Jessica Frew’s story and insights, visit shoveyourshoulds.com or @heyjessicafrew on Instagram.

Transcript

[A]

Heather McDonald has got the juicy scoop. When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales For real life, Mr. Segment, serial data and cereal sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast. Listen in. Listen up.

[B]

Whoo.

[A]

Whoo. Hannah McDonald, juicy scoop.

[B]

Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. All right, I have a great interview for you where I interviewed a woman who has one of the most unbelievable stories about her marriage that won't be believed. It's super juicy. But first, let's get into some hot topics. But not until I tell you once more because I do not want to hear you cry about it. That you better get your plans together for Vegas November 14th. That is a Friday night at MGM Grand. You've got to come to my show. There is a low ticket alert. There's still really great. Well, the whole theater there's great. There isn't a bad seat in this theater. But I want to make sure you get your tickets for the girls that you're with. If for some reason you're going alone, you will not have a bad time because the fans that'll be there that weekend for BravoCon will are top notch. But the best fans are the juicy scoopers. And so they will be there and they're always so nice and fun. So get your plan together. You don't want to miss out on this. Who knows how many more live juicy scoops will be or Bravo cons or whatever. So get it together. Go and enjoy. We spend so much talk time talking about all this stuff. Do it also. Of course, Patreon is this Friday and I've got really deep inside scoop as promised, about the juiciest stuff in Hollywood. Some dark shit I'm gonna share that is juicy and so much more. So that's gonna be this Friday. I hope you're part of my patreon. Go to heathermcdallin.net okay, big news. The new bachelorette on ABC is Taylor Frankie Paul, the one who started the Secret Lives of Mormon wives show because she was part of the mom TikTok that decided one day to get on and say, yeah, the reason my mom talk is kind of dismantled is because we were swinging. We were soft swinging and people caught feelings for each other and it all exploded.

[A]

And.

[B]

And it was quite shocking because all these girls were so cute. They could all dance. They all had long hair and, you know, little peach cheeks and were cute and tiny and married young and Mormon. Well, the show starts and by the time the show starts airing, she is now divorced from her first husband and who she has two kids from. And now she's dating this other guy and she gets pregnant with him, she is no longer with him, and now she is the Bachelorette. This is extremely juicy genius, I think, to ignite into the franchise of what is the Bachelor, the Bachelorette, the Golden Bachelor and the Golden Bachelorette. Because it also makes sense because people thought, how was she? Who's really the star, the most recognizable face of mom talk? Why wasn't she chosen to be on Dancing with the Stars? Because the two other girls, Jennifer Affleck and the other girl, Whitney, who did the dance while her son was in NICU and love you and she'd like do a little ass jump up and she was doing this dance and her child was just in the clear little NICU cradle. That's what I just did. A juicy crimes about this which you'll hear next week, by the way, let me remind you. Link is in the notes description below. You're gonna subscribe to Juicy crimes, you're gonna leave a review and you're going to also do that on the juicy crimes on YouTube and you're gonna tell a friend, okay, Talking about how quickly the quote unquote canceled, people. What happened when that girl did that video dancing with her ass in the air while her child was on on breathing mechanisms. She thought her life was over. She thought she was gonna be canceled. The whole world hated her. Well, then she got on mom on Secret Lives of Mormon wives. Now her body snatched, just squirted out her fourth kid and is doing Dancing with the Stars. So you know, life can work out, girls. This episode of Juicy Scoop is brought to you by booking.com booking. Yeah. From vacation rentals to hotels across the U.S. booking.com has the IDE deal stay for anyone because there's so much to choose from in whatever city you're looking at. And I know that we're looking into it and there's so much to choose from and I'm so excited to do that. So if our family can find the perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can find exactly what you're booking for booking.com, booking. Yeah. Book today on the site or in the app.

[A]

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Get started [e-mail] campaign terms and conditions apply. And now, Frankie Paul, who we've seen on two seasons of show crying with her parents about that she needs to stick with guy number two because she had baby number three with guy number two and all of this. And why didn't she get Dancing with the Stars? Because abc, who also airs Dancing with the Stars, had this secret going that she was going to be the next Bachelorette. This is very juicy because I don't even know. And you guys would know better. I know we've had contestants, men and women on the bachelor of franchises, Bachelor, bachelorette, who were parents with one, maybe never more than two kids, but mostly I think just one. And that's always like a controversial thing. And usually the bachelor bachelorette doesn't know that the suitor is a parent until like the third or fourth date where they've hung out with them and they're like, oh, I love that you're a parent. And then maybe we see the kid and then maybe we don't. And. But this is pretty juicy. Not only is she not part of the bachelorette franchise where they recycle people, which I have been telling them for years, stop doing this. Get somebody exciting. Get somebody who's. If it's a guy, get somebody who's truly good looking and successful and rich. Not a has been leftover from a bachelorette season. Get somebody that we're excited about. She, she's beautiful. She can dance. She's got a good body. She does drink, whether she does anymore or not. But she was kind of like a drinker, partier, boozer. That's why she fell into the swinging. She was a swinger. She knows how to side swing, which means, like it just starts off, I guess, with you laying next to each other and I don't know, I'm kind of joking. But there is a thing about, I guess you just give like a BJ from the side of your mouth. I don't know, so she was a side swinger and then also a mother of three that's juggling two baby daddies and she lives in Utah and she, you know, has some nice hair. So listen, this is gonna be good. People are going to watch this. This was a very good TV movie. Move on their part. Also, the Golden Bachelor is happening that comes out September 24th. And one of my very best friends that I have known since my early 20s, that is the reason why I became a stand up because we had a job together and she threw down the Learning Annex magazine and she said leave this dumb cubicle job at Robinson's May and become a stand up. She is on the Golden Bachelor and her name is Maya. I can't tell you what's going to happen because I don't know what happens. They're sworn to secrecy and I do not know. But she is a mother three, recently divorced, so she too is a mother of three. It's gonna be good. I feel like this franchise is. It had a big dip and I think it's back and I think this is gonna be a very exciting season. Okay, now we're going to get into one of the juiciest marriage stories I've heard. And coming off on the Mormon Talk of Secret Lives of Mormon Moms, Secret Life of Mormon Wives. This woman that I interviewed has such an interesting inspirational story about her life and it did come from the Mormon Church. Her marriage, what happened in her journey with her husband. And it's just, it's a good one. You will like it. It's juicy. So sit back and enjoy. And here we go with my interview. Thank you. I am very excited to talk to my first time guest because she has a very juicy book coming out about her life that I love. I love the subject. So you knew you'd be perfect for Juicy Scoop when you reached out. Jessica Frue. The book is called Shove youe Shoulds. And I mean, let's get into what got you into realizing that your life is pretty crazy and that you can also help people in the process.

[A]

Yeah, it's always funny because I don't view my life as being crazy. I'm like, oh, this is just my life. And people are like, girl, what just happened to you? Like, what have you been through? But yeah, I mean, you want me to go into this story, tell you all the things?

[B]

Yeah, things kind of start. So I mean, the line that caught my eye was I found out, my husband told me or whatever, I found out. And we're gonna find out in the interview how that he's gay, which is something a lot of women deal with. It's not an unheard story. But then you went and met the man he had an affair with and had dinner with to kind of get the scoop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then you also went back to the original gay husband to see if you could date him again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then you got married. So I want to hear all of.

[A]

It, all of the things.

[B]

First of all, where did you grow up and everything?

[A]

Yeah. So I grew up mostly in Idaho. I was raised in a very conservative Christian religion. We are Mormon, lds, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I will get crap if I do not say the full title. So there you go. But we were. And my husband, my first husband was as well. We were both raised in this community and very much.

[B]

Were your parents and grandparents. Like, were they for generations, you were Mormon?

[A]

Yep. Yep.

[B]

And so does Idaho have a big Mormon community?

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's similar to Utah. It's not quite as much, but very similar. And so, like, Matt and I, my current husband and I always say, like, in Boise, where I live, if you go outside of Boise, it's Little Utah. Like, all of the surrounding areas just feel like Utah. There's lots of Mormons. All of the soda drink shops that you see, like, all of the things Secret lives and Mormon wives.

[B]

I didn't know. Okay. I didn't know that the dirty soda means you get, like, a. Like a soda pop and then you put, like, cream in it.

[A]

Yeah. It has, like, coconut cream and lime.

[B]

Into, like, a rooted beer.

[A]

Yeah. Like, so if I'm gonna get a.

[B]

Dirty soda, I thought, you can't have caffeine.

[A]

Okay. So, yes, there was, like, at one point where people. I don't even know where it came from, but there was this thing in the church saying that we couldn't have caffeine. I'm like, I have never heard this. Like, I never heard these rules that we can't have caffeine. Coffee was always a. And, like, black tea and green tea. I don't know. I don't understand where it started. Yeah, I mean, there's like, a. We have a word of wisdom that they live by that's supposedly scripture. And in that there is, like, no hot drinks. And so I'm like, did they just take that? But all of us drink. All of us drink hot chocolate. Like, so I don't know. And herbal teas are fine. I don't know how the lines all came to be drawn, but it is interesting. Like, my My ex husband, when I married him, he's like, you can't have caffeine. And I'm like, what? I didn't drink caffeine growing up just because I had heart issues. But I didn't understand. I'm like, this is not in church doctrine. Like, this isn't a thing.

[B]

Okay, so we'll.

[A]

So, yes. Dirty sodas.

[B]

So you have all that and you meet your. Your husband. The first husband's name is Matt.

[A]

My first husband is Steve. So I met Steve in college.

[B]

Okay, which college was that?

[A]

We were at isu, which is in Pocatello, Idaho, super little town. And we met there.

[B]

That was not a religious college.

[A]

No, no. Neither of us went to BYU or a religious college at all. But I remember meeting Steve and it was like, I knew this guy was going to change my life, and he did. In many ways I did not expect. But we met and then the next day he called me and we went out the next night and we were together. Any chance we could be after that? We were just really compatible and had fun together.

[B]

But no premarital sex?

[A]

No premarital sex. We did not have sex. And it's interesting because later we were talking and Steve's like, I didn't even really made out with anybody until you. I kissed a couple girls, but nobody ever interest me as far as girls went until then. Because he's like, I don't know. And he always said the thing that attracted him to me was just that I was not afraid to be myself. He's like, you just showed up as you. And I couldn't put that together with, like, the church thing. And also, you were bold and loud and didn't dress like everybody else. And so I think that's kind of what made our connection work. We met in February. We were married in December. Very much typical in the Mormon Church to get married very quickly. And we got married in the temple, all of the things. So you're sealed and all that? Yep, he and I were sealed. We did the whole shebang.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it was interesting, like a few days before our wedding.

[B]

Sealed means that when you go, if you believe when you go, and after you die, then the two of you will be hanging out for eternity.

[A]

Yeah. And like your kids. So anybody. So any kids that you have within that marriage are also sealed to you.

[B]

I find it so interesting. Cause I've talked about this before. I mean, obviously there's been a lot of interest in Mormonism in reality tv. We have Real Housewives who are Mormon. We have The TikTok girls, secret lives, Mormon wives. And the amount of divorce is sort of surprising to me because growing up Catholic, it was like we were told like, well, Mormon is a way more like stricter religion about stuff like that. But there's so much divorce now. What happens if you divorce someone who you were sealed with? Can you get that removed? Like the way Catholics get. I forgot the word that you use when you get married in the church. But you can get it not exonerated, but, like taken away so you can get married in the church again. Which doesn't really happen. Most people get married church in. Once they get married again, they don't even try to like do it. I'm done for super religious people that were like, then you have to prove, like, that he lied to you early on or he was mentally ill or she was or whatever to get annulment. Catholic annulment.

[A]

That's what it is.

[B]

Okay, so how does it work with the ceiling?

[A]

The ceiling is interesting. And there's a lot of controversy around this, quite honestly. So in a ceiling, if you get it, you can get it canceled is what it is. And you have to get like basically permission or like a letter from your ex. And you have to go through this process of canceling that. Now, women are still technically sealed to their exes until they are married and sealed to somebody else. And men can be sealed to more than one person, but women cannot. So maybe it's that, like my husband Matt is still technically sealed to his ex wife and me. Cause he and I did the temple thing too.

[B]

So husband number two is Mormon too?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, so let's go back to husband number one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you guys get married sealed, the whole shebang?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're how old?

[A]

I was like 19. 20. I was 20.

[B]

Did you guys have kids?

[A]

We ended up having a daughter about five years in after, like some fertility stuff. And I knew he was gay at that point, so he came out.

[B]

So let's hear about that. So what year and how far into marriage did you suspect first? Or did he tell you before you even suspected?

[A]

He could never. So I knew before he could even say the words, I'm gay. So I found back in the day, there were all these popups that would come up on your computer. So I opened up our laptop one day and he's at work.

[B]

And what year is this around?

[A]

This would be like 2004.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So all. Or yeah, right around there, 2005. All these pop ups start coming up on the computer and it's all porn. Which I wasn't shocked by. I knew he looked at porn, but it was all men. And I was like, I didn't know this. And I knew, like, sure, there's some straight guys that look at gay porn, but there was something in me that I was like this. My husband is gay. And when he came home that night, he knew I wasn't. Okay, we talked about it and how.

[B]

Did you say it?

[A]

I said, are you gay? Like, Steve, are you gay? And. And he's like, no. I just felt it was better to not disrespect women. And so I convinced, like, I. And so I only looked at men like, I didn't want to disrespect women. This is like how deep in denial he was.

[B]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[A]

He was so deep in denial. And he told me years later, he's like, that night was the first night I even let myself think to myself, I'm gay. It hadn't been until that point that he could even let those words enter his mind. Fast forward two years later, he's in counseling, and the counselor's like, hey, yes, you're dealing with all these other issues, but the main issue is, is that you're gay. And until you accept that.

[B]

Now, is this counselor a Mormon counselor or just a person that you guys found through, like, marriage and family counseling?

[A]

I don't think it was a Mormon counselor at this point. I think we had tried a couple and we were like.

[B]

And was he going to therapy alone or always together on his own?

[A]

This was totally on his own.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And the counselor's like, you're gay, and until you accept and love that about yourself, you're going to struggle with all these other things. Like, they're going to be an issue. And so at that point, Steve came to me. He told me he's gay.

[B]

How did he tell you?

[A]

He didn't actually tell me.

[B]

So now at this point, do you have your daughter?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No. So this is like two years in. Two and a half years in. We're like in the middle of movie.

[B]

And how often are you boning and stuff?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, we had a really healthy sex life. Steve, when we talked about this at some point on our podcast, he was like, wow, I forgot we had that much sex. Like, how often were you having it? I mean, like three, four times a week at least. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was very healthy. And it was interesting cause I talked to my friends who were in a heteronormative relationship, and they're like, we're not having that much sex. And they didn't know Steve was gay. But I was just like, that's just what we do. I think it's our thing, and I think it's. Cause we are emotionally connected. Like, I was the only one that knew he was gay. I was the only person that knew this truth about him. And it created really deep connection between us anyway, but he was still.

[B]

He was still coming around, like, making you feel beautiful while you had sex. And when you were to be having sex with him, would you think, I wonder if he's thinking about gay porn right now? Or did you never let your mind go there?

[A]

I mean, during sex, I never let my mind go there. Like, I just.

[B]

Enjoy yourself.

[A]

Yeah. This is about us. This is about us right now. I mean, there were moments of thinking that outside of the bedroom, where I'd question all of those things. And we got to a point where we would talk about, like, who he thought was attractive at the grocery store and, like, nudge each other, and we would. With guys. Yes, with the guys at the grocery store. Because I really wanted him to feel safe being who he is and, like, accepting himself.

[B]

What were your careers at this time?

[A]

Um, so at that point, when I found out he was gay, Steve did hotel management, and we were actually in the process of moving to Belize, and so he was down there, and I had just quit my job.

[B]

Why were you moving to Belize?

[A]

He managed a hotel down there. We went on vacation. He applied for a job, got one, and we moved down.

[B]

How fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was it great?

[A]

It was really fun. And that's where our daughter was born. She ended up being born in Belize.

[B]

What's the gay life there?

[A]

I mean, there's not much, which was good for our marriage at the time, you know? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It was like a hotel to work out in West Hollywood. Everyone okay? Yeah.

[A]

I remember him coming on trips to California, like, work trips for trainings, and.

[B]

Coming back real happy and coming back.

[A]

And no, he would feel so much shame and guilt because he would go to, like, the gay parts of town.

[B]

He'd tell you all this.

[A]

He would tell me this. And he'd never. I mean, he did things that were outside of the boundaries of what I felt was appropriate for our marriage, like going to, like, clubs and going to porn shops where they have, like, the little rooms, and people knock on him to see if you want help and things like that. He's like, I never let anybody in. But he would go do these things.

[B]

But he would tell you, like, hey, by the way, after work, I'm going to the peep show.

[A]

He wouldn't tell me before. This was always after work.

[B]

So it would be like, oh, how was work? It was great, actually. Last night I just like got an itch and I went to a gay club. He would tell you like, like, how.

[A]

Would he tell me? I mean, it was usually after he got home and it would be like a check in because I knew these things were wow, like, quote unquote temptations for him or things like. That's how we talked about that.

[B]

Where are your fa. Where's your family? You're not sharing anything with your family, are you?

[A]

Our family doesn't know Steve's mom. He told his mom like a year before we got divorced.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

She was the only person in the family.

[B]

And what was her reaction?

[A]

She was a mess. Like, total mess. It's been a rocky road with family and navigating all of that. And some of that is more like Steve's story to share on that end of things. But it was, it was a lot for our families.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, but yeah, so, I mean, these were conversations we had. We were very open with each other and it took Steve often time to be able to own some of the things that were going on or be able to tell me. But I always knew something was going on. Like I knew Steve well enough to know something had shifted. Something wasn't okay. And I knew the instant he had an affair. Like I knew.

[B]

So all those other times, besides peeking at gay porn in the privacy of his own computer at home, when he'd go to actual places where gay men were, he would just say, I just looked. Did he ever say I exchanged numbers? Did he ever say I did a handy J, but nothing more like none of that.

[A]

None of that.

[B]

Do you believe it?

[A]

I do, actually.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Just because he's been so honest with me, he had no reason not to tell me.

[B]

And you were never afraid that he would cross the line and then possibly not be open with you and bring you home, some type of disease?

[A]

I, I was worried he would cross the line, that there would be an affair. Like, I, I wasn't dumb. I knew that was a real possibility for our relationship and, and stayed in the relationship knowing that like, that I was choosing into something that was very highly likely to end in divorce and, or an affair. And so, and did you feel like.

[B]

You were kind of being like the ultimate ostrich with your head in the sand procrastinator. Because like, you did love his companionship and everything. So you're just trying to tell yourself that this could continue even though your soul was saying, this can't go on forever like this. And it's not fair to me.

[A]

You know, it. I Stayed until it really didn't feel right. There was a point. I mean, after he had the affair and stuff, and we still tried to make things work after that. There was a point where I was like, steve, you're ready to just go embrace this. Like, go be who you were created to be. And I'm good. Penny and I. Penny's our daughter. We'll be fine. Like, we'll figure all of this out. And so at that point.

[B]

Well, let's go back, because I'm jumping ahead. Let's go back to the infamous day of where he hasn't said I'm gay, but he says I like gay stuff and looking at men and attracted to men, but we're still having sex. To the point where he comes to you with this bombshell. And where and when? And what did he say?

[A]

Okay, so when I found out he was gay, he didn't actually come to me. What happened was he had moved to Belize and he had bought his stuff, a bunch of stuff, like, at our churches.

[B]

But weren't you living in Belize with him?

[A]

I was. I was like, getting our house.

[B]

Oh, you were to join him.

[A]

Rented and, like, the car sold and like, that type of stuff. But you were planning on moving three weeks. And at this point, he's like, hey, I have some stuff I need returned to the bookstore. Will you take it back for me? And I'm like, sure. Like, I'll. I'll do that after you leave. So I'm in line at the bookstore, and it's our church bookstore. And I'm looking at the receipt, and it's like, homo, Homo. Because it just says, like, the first part of all of these books that he bought. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, he's come to terms with the fact he's gay.

[B]

But wait. And so the Mormon bookstore has homosexual books.

[A]

They have things for individuals, and they'll say, like, people who struggle with same gender attraction.

[B]

So it's a book to kind of try to convert you back to being.

[A]

Hetero, help you stay in a heteronormative relationship, to give you hope, to help you stay, like, in line, like, keep the path type thing. Which I didn't know they had until that moment either. I was like, what the heck?

[B]

And he bought them, but he was.

[A]

Returning them after he was returning some other stuff, and he forgot that was on the receipt.

[B]

Oh, I see. Okay, go, go.

[A]

So. And like, his counselor was like, they probably have some stuff at the bookstore. Go pick it up. So. So he did. To take with him to Belize. And so I was returning this stuff, and I was like, oh, my gosh. So I went and bought a couple books and started reading stuff, and I called him, and I'm like, hey, just so you know, like, I went and got this. I saw this on the receipt. And I'm like, I'm assuming you've come to terms with the fact you're gay. And he's like, yes, I am gay. I am like, whatever. And my current husband Matt is always like, why did you not leave right then? Like, why did you not leave? Like, that was. You were already separated. He's in Belize. You don't have a. Like, your assets are separ.

[B]

How old are you at this point?

[A]

I was 23, 24. Yeah.

[B]

And during those times of having regular sex, you weren't successful in getting pregnant or you were.

[A]

We were actively trying to have a kid. We were actually in, like, artificial insemination, and I was.

[B]

So you went to that because you couldn't get pregnant? Was it your. Did you ever know whose issue it was or why you guys couldn't conceive?

[A]

I've never been able to get pregnant again. I've randomly gotten pregnant once, and so I'm assuming there's something off with me, but nothing that they've ever pinpointed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so I had my one. But I got pregnant with her when we moved to Belize. So at that point. But through ivf, no, I ended up just naturally getting pregnant with Steve.

[B]

Oh, okay. Okay. So. Okay, continue.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So he says that to you, and then. But you're like, but I'm still going to be your wife. Or.

[A]

I mean, we talked like, what does this look like? What do we want? And we both were still in it. So we were like, okay, let's keep going forward until this doesn't work. Basically, like, that's kind of how it was.

[B]

And at that point, you didn't say, but if you're gay, are you gonna want to actually have intercourse with a man?

[A]

I mean, we had all those conversations, and he was just like, no, that's not something I want. That's not how I ever envisioned my life. Which he hadn't, because he'd only been shown one way of living.

[B]

I mean, only because you're in the church. Juicy scoop. I'm gonna ask you something.

[A]

Ask me. Ask me the things.

[B]

I mean, were you like, do you want to be a top or do you want to be a bottom? What do you see yourself as? And does that freak you out? And did he ever Ask you to peg him?

[A]

No. And I actually had offered to do things and he's like, nope, I can't do it. I can't mesh those two worlds.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He like, but did you ever ask.

[B]

Him about what he desired in a man on man relationship and what role he would play?

[A]

But I think he couldn't even picture that or like grasp that in himself until he had the affair. And when he had the affair, I remember him telling me, he's like, jess, I'm crushed because I know I've hurt you. Like, this is.

[B]

So how does he tell you go to the affair party?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you go to Belize. You're still.

[A]

He lived there.

[B]

You're living there.

[A]

But he had a baby.

[B]

But how often are you talking about his gay side at that point?

[A]

I mean, it comes up like probably a few times a month or so. I mean, it's not like a daily conversation.

[B]

Do you go see Black Back? What is it called? Mountain. What was it called?

[A]

Oh, he was watching that.

[B]

Wait, what was it called?

[A]

Back Mountain. Is that.

[B]

Did you go. When that movie came out, did you guys go see it?

[A]

He had already seen it. Like that came out.

[B]

He already seen it 10 times.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I do remember. That was when he watched a bunch.

[B]

You're like, it's like your child is always watching Frozen. You're like, oh, yeah, my gay boyfriend. Husband is watching. Why don't we just buy the DVD at this point, sir, you don't have to keep checking it out. Okay, so, okay, so what happens? Get to the day.

[A]

Yeah, we had moved back from Belize, we were in the States, we had our daughter, she was almost two at this point. And Penny and I had gone home to Idaho for a family reunion. And we came back and it was Labor Day weekend, actually, which is coming right up. And we get to the airport and Steve picks us up. We come out and Penny runs over to Steve and throws her arms around him. And I'm just stand standing there watching like this cute little moment. And also I felt sick. Like I could just tell something was totally different.

[B]

Just the full. Your instinct, everything in me.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, Steve didn't look different. Like obviously there was no visual sign.

[B]

But it was just like your women's intuition.

[A]

Yes. And so we go have a little lovely evening as a family. We put Penny to bed and I'm like, steve, is everything fine? And this was the other indicator. He didn't want to have sex, which always when I came home from a trip or he came home from A trip. It's just, you know, what we did, and it wasn't a requirement. It was just who we were. And I was like, what is happening? Like, this is so weird. And he's like, nothing happened. We're good. I'm fine. Everything's fine. I was like, okay. And so fast forward just a week later, and I was still, like, not okay. I was up at night crying. I was having to watch friends to fall asleep at like 2 in the morning to, like, get my brain to calm down. Friends and I were real tight at that point.

[B]

It's a good distraction.

[A]

Yeah. And I was like, I know where I can get the answers. And Steve left his phone home. And so I was like, I'm just gonna look and I'll look at his email. I know which email to check. I know which friend he would message. And I go on to check. I open the email, I start reading. I'm like, I can't do this. This isn't who we are. Like, we've never had this type of relationship. And so I shut it and put it away. But that night, I told Steve, I'm like, hey, I really sorry. I want you to know I got on your phone, I didn't read anything, but I started to. I don't know what was in that email, but this is the one I opened and whatever. And he flips on the lights at that point and he's like, jessica, you have no reason to be sorry. I had an affair with a man. I was with him the whole weekend when you were gone. I'll tell you anything you want to know. And just had this really deep conversation. I didn't want to know anything. I'm like, I don't want to know details. I don't want to hear all of the things. I just need to know, like, general things. When this started, what you're feeling now, where we go from here. I don't want to hear details. Which I'm really glad I had that in me because it's not something I want to hold onto.

[B]

Yeah. It wouldn't be me, but, yeah.

[A]

You would want all those juicy details.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, it was like his first weekend having sex with a man and drinking and like, all of these things. And so it totally, like, flipped so much.

[B]

Oh, drinking. Because you guys were not.

[A]

We don't drinkers. Yeah.

[B]

So he was able to. Oh, he was just doing all the fun.

[A]

All in. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Doing poppers too, or no, you don't know?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But at that point, that's when he said to me. He's like, jessica, I. I've. This has never felt so right. Like, I've never felt something so right in my life, except for the fact that I know it's going to hurt you so badly. He's like, that part feels crushing. And it's like these two dual things that he's juggling at that point. And we tried to work it out for a while. He's like, I don't want to leave. This guy I had the affair with is like, stay with her. I didn't know you were married. All of these things. And then ultimately I was like, steve, like, we need to be done. Like, this needs to end.

[B]

So how. How far between that infamous night and you actually being like, we're done?

[A]

It was like six to eight weeks.

[B]

So it wasn't terribly long, right?

[A]

We were.

[B]

But now you're establishing your life. Oh, no. Cause you're already living in Belize for a while. Okay, sorry. So, okay, so now get to who this guy is.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So when I decided to leave, we had just moved to Oklahoma, and I was like, steve, I know nobody here. I can't stay here. And now you went there for his work? Yes, for his work. And he's like, okay, that's fine. And we owned a house in Boise. He's like, go back to our house and we'll figure out all the things with Penny and all of that. I was like, okay. And I told him, I said, okay, but before I leave, I want to meet this guy, because it sounds like you guys are going to stay together. So.

[B]

So he kept seeing him during those.

[A]

Six weeks he was not seeing him. And he cut contact at first, but then I knew there were emails or texts going back and forth.

[B]

Because you're looking at the phone?

[A]

No, just because Steve would like. I kept checking in, and Steve was honest with me about it.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

And so I was like, listen, your words are telling me you want to be with me. Your actions are speaking otherwise. Let's just be done. We can figure out something new. But I did tell him, before I leave, I want to go to dinner with this guy. I want to meet him.

[B]

Now. During this time, are you sharing this with anybody? Girlfriends, friends, family? Nothing we had.

[A]

So we had just moved from Colorado to Oklahoma, and so a couple of my friends in Colorado knew, and I actually went and stayed with them for, like, a week or two.

[B]

And were any of them, like, fuck him? And, like, like. Or a little bit more negative than you're like completely open, accepting heart.

[A]

They really weren't, those friends weren't. I mean, I'm sure there were people who said that, but there also people knew I wasn't open to receiving that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I was like, you can say that and do that, but I will not be on board.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like this is the husband, like my dad's, my daughter's dad. I'm not gonna throw him under the bus. I'm not gonna treat him that way. He's a good guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There were big feelings though. I always say. I'm like there were still. There was still a lot to process through. I still had to go through the feelings of anger and resentment and bitterness and not necessarily at him, just at the situation, but it was all there. Everything that comes with infidelity and all of that was still there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, we, so we went to dinner like this guy he had the affair with and Steve and I and Penny because she's two and so.

[B]

And what was, was he your age? Was he good looking? Like, what was he like and what was his story?

[A]

I mean, he was the most gentle, kind man. He was close to our age at the time. We were like 27, 28 at this point. And it was interesting because Steve was just like a ghost. He was pure white sitting at that table. And this guy and I are just having a conversation and Steve I think was just having an out of body experience, like what is happening in my life right now? And so the guy at the end asked if he could drive me home. He's like, can I drive you back to your guys house? And I was like, yeah, that's fine. And he just sobbed.

[B]

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[A]

Just the two of us.

[B]

He sobbed and said what?

[A]

He said. He's like, I wish. Well, first he said, I'm so sorry, it was never my intention to break up a marriage. And I'm like, listen, if it wasn't you, it would have been somebody else. This is never. This isn't about you. I don't view this as. You broke up my marriage. This was what Steve decided to do. And that's fine. I'm not dumb. I was married to a gay man. I knew this was a possibility. And he was like, I just hold him to stay with you. I've always wanted a wife and kids and if I could have found somebody that was accepting as you, I would have done that. But I was like, listen, at this point, Steve's not okay emotionally. I'm just really glad he is somebody like you around to watch out for him because I'm not going to be here. So please just be aware of him as much as you can. And that's kind of how we left things. And then I drove Penny and I home across the country the next day. Cried a lot and sang a lot.

[B]

And okay, so then where did you guys go with like divorce proceedings and stuff?

[A]

So I went to my friend's dad, had him write up our divorce. Steve signed whatever I put in front of him. It was super fast and easy. And we got that done.

[B]

And then what did custody look like? Because now you're in different states.

[A]

So we just put it as like the. I had 100% custody just because we were in different states. And we're like, we're gonna figure this out. Like, we get along. We had. He came home for Christmas. So I left at the end of October and he came home for Christmas. He's like, I am scared to death to go to Christmas with my family and like be in.

[B]

Because now they know.

[A]

They know. My parents know. Everybody knows. I remember calling my parents and telling them and it was like silence on the other end of the phone. Like, what?

[B]

And were they at all like, negative towards him? Like f. What the. How could this how could he do this to you? Why did he ever marry you in the first place? Was there any that kind of reaction?

[A]

I mean, initial reaction, sure. Like, there was some of that. And I remember my mom, we went shopping after I got back there to pick up, like, some house things that I needed, and I needed a strainer, like a colander, and we're in Walmart buying whatever we can get. And she got so pissed in that aisle. Like, just pissed. I'm like, this. The strainer is what brought it out, Mom. And she's like, yes. I'm just so mad. And I'm like, let it out. Like, you get to be mad. Like, this sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there were moments of that. But they also saw. They followed my lead on my side of my family. My family very much. My brother got really pissed for a while, one of my brothers. And then I told him, I'm like, listen, you can be pissed as long as you want. And also, Steve's gonna be at her birthdays, and he's gonna be at holidays, and he's going to be at all of these things, because that's what we're hoping for for Penny. I'm like, so if you want to be there, you got to figure this out. You can be pissed. Embrace it, but then figure it out. And so he came around really quickly, too. But Steve coming home for Christmas, he's like, I can't do this on my own. So I went and spent Christmas with Steve's family, and we got family pictures taken, Steve and I and Penny, because we didn't have any family pictures, and I wanted her to see, like, us together and how much we loved each other and all of that. So we have the cutest family pictures. We were both really skinny because we were on the divorce diet. So they're rocking.

[B]

And so now let's go to where you wanted to give it one more chance with Steve.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[B]

How did that come about?

[A]

So I started dating very quickly. I think I processed this as being my reality for quite a while. And so I started dating pretty quickly. And I was dating this guy, and I messaged Steve one night, and I'm like, hey, I'm falling in love with somebody else. And I know you had messaged a couple times saying that you might move back here, that you might move up to Boise. And I don't know if that's for me or if that for just so you can be close to Penny. And either one's great, but if it's for me, you need to let me know now. And he calls me the next morning, and he's like, jessica, I can't leave you. I can't do this. Like, I'm still so confused now.

[B]

Are you legally divorced?

[A]

We are legally divorced at this point, yeah.

[B]

And how old is your daughter now?

[A]

She's still two. Like, this is all within a year. Yeah, she turned 2 right after I moved home to Boise.

[B]

Okay, got it.

[A]

And he's like, I can't do this. I can't. I can't leave the church yet. Like, I can't do any of this. And I'm like, well, then move home, and let's figure that out. He's like, I've been trying to figure out the job thing. I said, screw the job. Like, take the action. And so he quit his job the next day, and three hours later, they called him back and they're like, we just had a job opening come open in Boise. Do you want it? And he's like, yeah. So he.

[B]

So he's taking all the signs from the universe. God. Yep. Is saying this was just a little blip in your life, and you're meant to be the traditional straight dad and husband.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And stay in the church.

[A]

And it's interesting because at some point along the line. Well, it was when Penny was six months old. I had this deep feeling that this was going to be a story I was going to share. But at that point, Steve and I are married, and I thought it was gonna be how we made this relationship work in the church. And, you know, you can have a mixed orientation marriage.

[B]

You kind of have, like, a vision of life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I know this is. This bad thing's happening to me, but I know it's gonna be something bigger later in the future. That's really. Yeah, I'm kind of like that, too. So it's really interesting when you look back and you're like, no, I knew there was something, like, in the future.

[A]

There was more for this, and it gave it deeper purpose. But, like, now I'm so glad that's not the message I'm sharing. Like, I give support to so many women who have had a partner come out. And through our podcast, we've helped so many people. And so I'm grateful for that.

[B]

Okay, so get back to that.

[A]

I'm really glad he comes.

[B]

He gets the job in Boise. Yeah.

[A]

And like, yeah, he gets the job in Boise and we start dating again. We were like, let's commit to, like, six months. Let's see how this goes. And it was a Complete shit show. Like, there is no other way to describe.

[B]

Without Brad, how is it a shit show?

[A]

I mean, he's, like, drinking behind my back, which I didn't care that he's drinking. I'm like, just be honest with me about it. And he's got guys behind my back. And we aren't sleeping together because I'm like, I am not sleeping with you. I don't know where you've been at this point and what's going on.

[B]

Did you say you gotta be fully tested before we get intimate?

[A]

Well, I was like, I won't sleep with you again until we're married, Partially just because of my own boundaries with. I don't know what this is gonna be. I don't know where you've been. I'm not doing this until.

[B]

Smart.

[A]

We're really committed. We know what it's like to be together. So this isn't a question on that end, but, yeah, it was a mess. And we were both so emotional and all over the board. And it was interesting. He was going to church. He came to the same church congregation as me. And my current husband had just moved into that ward, too, or like, the church congregation. And he and Matt became friends. So Steve and Matt started mountain biking together. And they would always leave from my apartment complex because it was near the trailheads. And so Steve and I are a mess. And one night they're going mountain biking. Matt and Steve and some friends are going mountain biking together. And I go up there, and I hadn't met Matt yet. I had no clue he went to church with us or anything. I took Penny to see Steve, and Steve's like, hey, this is Matt. He goes to church with us. And I saw Matt, and I was like, I'm gonna marry that guy. I was like, that's my future husband, Steve. And I ended it a week later.

[B]

You didn't think at one moment maybe they're fucking?

[A]

No. Did not cross my mind.

[B]

I'm on these mountain bikes. Right.

[A]

Steve did always tell. Well, he tells Matt and I both this. He's like. I just would ride behind him and be like, that man has nice calves. Which is very true. He also told me once when he was really wasted, that Matt has really nice, peculiar. And he was like, no, I didn't. I'm like, you did tell me that, Steve. And he's like, no way. It's like you were also trying to kiss me. But. So. Yeah.

[B]

So you guys never. In your attempt to try to get back together, you were. Did you live in the same home?

[A]

No, he had gotten an apartment. I had. I was living in our home. And you never were.

[B]

You never were intimate again.

[A]

This is what the main, like, deal breaker was for me is he really wasn't attracted to me after he had the affair with the man. He was up until that point. And then it kind of cut that. And I felt guilty for a while, feeling like, why do I need him to want me? Like, why is this such a big deal? I'm like, that's like what a marriage is like. This is a big thing that makes it different from any other relationship. Of course I want to be wanted. That's so natural in us. I want to be desired. I want somebody that wants all the girly parts and all the things. And so, yeah, that's what. Ultimately I was like, I can't do this. You don't need to do this. Like, we don't need to do this. We're gonna be fine. We're gonna be friends. Let's go our ways. So we did once. It was over that time. It was like, done.

[B]

And then. So then you start dating.

[A]

I called Matt. I reached out to him. I think it was on Facebook messenger the next week. I said, hey, Matt, you wanna go to my friend's party with me? He's like, wait a second. I'm so confused. Cause he didn't know enough. Yeah, he just.

[B]

And you're still going to Mormon church every Sunday?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you still go to church now?

[A]

Up until the beginning of this year, it's been like, up.

[B]

Really? Why now?

[A]

Have you burn of releasing a lot of that and. And honestly, not something I've talked about a lot, but it was. It's just been like there's. There were things that didn't feel right for me then. Even when Steve and I were married in the church that I really struggled with. And especially that was like, when Prop 8 was like, a huge thing and gave.

[B]

Marriage, you mean?

[A]

Yeah, gay marriage. Steve and I always joked that we supported gay marriage because I was married to a gay man. All this stuff, which I did support gay marriage. Even as an active member of the church, I'm like, I very much support this. And I don't understand. People were created this way. So I'm like, this is part of. If I believe in God, this is part of God's plan. Like, people came this way. I've watched it in my husband. And so there was no question. Anyway, there was a slow unraveling for me of what I believe. And all of those things I Have nothing against the church. I'm not like, angry or bitter, but it doesn't resonate for what I believe in, what love looks like or what God's love looks like or any of that.

[B]

So in going now, I've never been to a Mormon service, so I can only compare it to what I've been to in Catholic, which is like a. Of a whole mass is like a routine of things. And, you know, and I've been to, like, Christian stuff where there's like a cute preacher and, you know, like maybe like some tats or something. And I'm like, okay, I do see that this might be a little more entertaining, but what is it? What is a Mormon weekly ceremony? Like what?

[A]

Yeah. So one of the things that I have liked about the church and now I kind of see as like, I don't know if this is a good thing or bad, but there's the same things taught all over the world every Sunday. So we have like the same messaging at least. And there's two hours of church at least. The second hour is very much like, if you are having this lesson in Boise, Idaho, you're also having it in Europe somewhere. Like, it's the same lesson. It's the same type of program. And which made it like, when you did travel, like when we moved to Belize, there's a community there that you instantly feel connected to. And that feels familiar, which always.

[B]

But I mean, that is. That's like Catholic too.

[A]

It's.

[B]

Yeah, but it's universal. Yeah. So it's like there's like a calendar. Okay. I didn't even know that scripture. Like, you're reading the same scriptures leading up to Christmas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the same is leading through. Leading up to Easter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, yes, if you're going to mass in this place, I believe all the scriptures are the same. The eulogy is like the speed speech. So not you start. Usually that's for. If you don't.

[A]

The.

[B]

I forgot, like, well, like after the. They read like the Gospel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is in the Testament, you know, Second Testament Bible of like, you know, Jesus. And then the priest. It's up to the priest to say, I met this woman at Target. He could say whatever he wants and somehow relate it. That's so. You know, and some priests are way more entertaining than others. You know, some are podcast worthy and some are not.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, so you're like, oh, okay, so then those might become more popular. And then sometimes you're stuck with a real dud and you're Like, I don't even wanna go to church anymore. But I have so much guilt about not going to church, but I'm not really getting anything out of it. And I think that's what Catholics struggle with. And the same type of thing in that the universal laws of what is okay and what is not, which is changing in the church as well. Especially with gay acceptance with the last pope and the previous and the new one, which is good. It's like the same thing. And then we used to call it. But growing up, my dad would be like, oh, she's a cafeteria Catholic. You could take what you want. Like, you know, you will be on birth control, even though they're against birth control. You are accepting of gay couples.

[A]

You.

[B]

You know, that type of thing. But if you're truly the Catholic, you find the church on vacation. Yeah. And we used to be that family that had to find the church on vacation and go do it. And then.

[A]

That's so funny, you know?

[B]

And then even as my parents got older, they, like, started to blow it off. And then it's like, oh, you know. And then you finally, like, realize, well, I'm an adult. What do I want to do today? And I believe that from a good person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There isn't some checks and balances in heaven where they're like, can you pull up Heather and see if she showed up at the 11am Mass or not. Like, whatever it is. But other people feel like, no, it's my routine. Like, going to the gym.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if without it, I have a bad week and I need that spirituality and that community and all that. So I didn't really know that. So I'm like, I never really understood that. There's a similarity in how it sounds, how it was sort of established in that it is like a similar thing in every place.

[A]

Yeah. And one of the different things is that I know is a little different is like, so we have our first hour. That's everybody together, and they pick speakers from the congregation.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So there'll be like two or three speakers each Sunday that are from the congregation. And then, like, the next hours are just teacher led. The second hour is okay. Yeah.

[B]

And so then did you ever feel like that kind of a thing? Like, you. I like, you know, you believe in God or like, what is your belief system? That then said, maybe this. This, you know, established thing is not working for me the way it used to, but I'm grateful that I got a relationship from God by being in it for 35 years or whatever it was.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I definitely think that's how I feel about it, is it gave me a base to believe in something greater than myself and to believe that there is some sort of plan for my life that brings me comfort as a person. And not that I'm saying, like, the plan's laid out. I can't mess it up. Like, I don't have my own agency, but that I could be used for something good or there is, like, purpose to my life, like I say. And I knew I would share this story on some level of what we've been through and experience, to help other people. And knowing that brings me a lot of comfort. But ultimately, for me, I didn't feel like. It didn't feel like love anymore. If I believe the things I believe about God, about the universe, whatever is out there, then they don't. This, the way we're taught in church doesn't feel like love to me. Like, you're saying all the shame and the guilt and. And those things and not accepting everybody fully, like, they're not truly welcome in our church. Like Steve, as Penny's dad, would never have the same privileges or experiences as me within the church if he came back. And I. That just doesn't sit right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, that's really hard. And there's other things besides that also, you know, patriarchy in how women are treated and all of those things. And I don't think it's done. I mean, I don't. I say I don't think it's done intentionally. I think there are people that do it intentionally. I think the. The mass as a whole, maybe it's not intentional, but there's just so much to unpack there. I've had. I've had to unpack that it's okay for me to have a voice and to want to be seen and to, you know, do things like this, come on podcasts, to share our story, to be a speaker and presenter and that that's okay and valued as a woman. And I've always just only seen that as. That's men's way. That's their job. They're the ones that will be seen. I will be in the background being supportive. That's not my job.

[B]

Do you watch Real Housewives of Salt Lake City? Are you familiar?

[A]

I have not watched that one.

[B]

So one of the things I found. Well, our audience is familiar with it. And there are. They're not all from Mormon backgrounds, but some are. And there's the one, Heather Gay, who leaves the Mormon Church and has written two Books about bad Mormon and whatever. And she, you know, got divorced and all this. And what I always thought was interesting is that she would get upset how she was like, you know, kind of like bashing the church in the sense of just like, I don't want to be part of it anymore. But then she would be weirdly, in my opinion as a viewer, like, jealous that this other girl, Lisa Barlow, who wasn't raised Mormon, she was raised Jewish, married a Mormon man and gets to go to all the cool, fun Mormon things. But she also has a tequila company. So I'm always like, sometimes they'll be like butting heads. And I'm like, I think Heather Gay is like, why does she get to still have the. Like, I really felt like with this Heather Gay, she really missed the sense of community that you even see with the, the. The ones who are polyam. Not polyamorous. Polygamy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you know, and how, how they all work together and how it's all this and you know, and, and the healthy eating and the ballerina farms lady who like cooks from scratch. I think there's like a desire for that and there's some really lovely goodness about it, you know, like the healthy eating and just like, you know, you look at like, you know, Mitt Romney when he was running for president and I'm like, oh, my God, no caffeine, no alcohol. Like, this guy looks fucking great for all them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I mean, and I think that's why they're like, oh, my God, these girls are so attractive and so pretty and everyone's like, you know, pretty good looking and they're also great salesmen because they had to go be rejected for two years straight on a mission. Like, there's some like, kind of cool things about it. So I'm sort of fascinated by that for those reasons.

[A]

But yeah, yeah, there definitely is a community there that it can be hard to leave. It can be hard to kind of walk away from. And I feel like I kind of still get to dip my toe in that. And so it hasn't been like something that I feel I've lost, which is nice.

[B]

But also it's not like a Scientology, that when you leave, you are like, no one can talk to you. You can't be invited to a party anymore.

[A]

That'd be so horrible.

[B]

Yeah, it's not like that. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then you and Matt, how soon after you start dating do you realize, like, you are ready to take it to the next level and get married for a second time?

[A]

So when Matt and I met. I asked him out. We hung out a couple times. He's like, first of all, I need to know more of this story. Like, what's going on with you and Steve? What's the dynamic? I don't really know. So he came over and we chatted about all that, and we went and.

[B]

Did he know Steve was gay?

[A]

Huh? Cause he only knew that Steve and I were dating.

[B]

He just wondered why Steve always wanted to ride behind him.

[A]

Yeah. He's like, yeah, whatever. You want to check it out? Check it out, man. That's how Matt is.

[B]

Okay, go on. Yeah.

[A]

But I went after Matt. I was like, hey, I would love to hang out with you. I would love to go out. And we had the conversation, got all the clarity, shared about, like, what happened with him and his ex because he had been married and has two kids, and. And he. Anyway, we hung out again, and he's like, listen, I'm super flattered. You're really cute. And also, I'm dating this other girl named Jessica, and we've been dating just long enough that I don't feel good about dating.

[B]

But her name was.

[A]

Her name was Jessica as well.

[B]

He's dating two Jessica's.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he's like, so. And I want to see where it goes with this other Jessica. And I said, okay, let me know when you break up with her. And he's like, okay. And we still talked. Like, we would see each other at church. I would go to the gym. I try and plan my gym routine around when I thought he'd be there because I wanted to see this guy. Like, I knew there was something there. And I was dating lots of guys along the way. Like, I like dating. It's a fun date, but you're not.

[B]

Having sex with anyone because you're still a good woman.

[A]

I am not having sex, but I don't need fun.

[B]

Being that you're still a good Mormon, but you're divorced to a gay man, is it like everything but penetration? Or is it, like, only touching above the clothes? Like, what kind of rules are you doing for yourself as a mother who's in her 30s now?

[A]

I was so straight edge. Like, if you hit me at this point, things would be a little different with what would happen when I was dating. But I was so straight edge in that. Like, I mean, no guys touched my boobs. No guys. There was no dry humping. There was none of that. Like, I was. I know, but it was just like. And I was fine with it. Like, it took a lot of drama out of dating for sure. But there are a couple guys. I'm like, oh, yeah, I could have gone back and done that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Anyway, I drop in every few months with Matt and I'd let him know again, like, hey, let me know when you break up with her.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And. And I think we've got something. So one day at church, he texts me during church, he sat by me, which was weird. And then during the second hour, he texted me, he's like, hey, do you and the kids like, do you want to meet us at the park? And I was like, yeah, this is different. And we met up at the park. He was telling me how he's never getting married, he's done dating, he's over all this crap, he's breaking up with Jessica tomorrow. Na na na. I was like, okay. And he broke up with her the next day. And the next night he was up at my house and we were married eight weeks later. Like, we just went for it. It's crazy.

[B]

And so how long you guys been married for?

[A]

We've been married 12 years now.

[B]

And okay, so for in the last 12 years, how has the dynamic been with ex gay husband and new husband and all of it?

[A]

They are so good together. It's been a journey. Like, there's been a lot of times where, you know, I'd invite Steve to something. I check with Matt. Still to this day, I'm like, hey, is it okay if I invite Steve? But at the beginning it was like, let me know afterwards how this felt if I can invite him again. Like, let's check in. Yeah, we need to have these conversations. And I remember, like, Matt ended up teaching Penny how to ride her bike. Cause his kids were out riding bikes and she really wanted to learn. And Matt's like, I don't know what to do here.

[B]

Because he felt it was maybe overstepping bounds.

[A]

You didn't want to overstep bounds with.

[B]

Steve or have Steve be like, bummed. It's like a. It's like a haircut thing. I remember sometimes my mother in law, I'd be traveling so much and I'd come home and the kids would have their haircuts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I know that she thought, well, Heather doesn't have time. You know, she's doing stand up. She's working at Chelsea lately. But then little boys that get their haircuts, they end up looking like they just came out of boot camp. And you're like, why did my kid age 5 years? So it's like there were Those things where. And then. But it wasn't her fault. Like, I understood. So I see how that can happen, you know, with. Especially when there's stepdads and things like that. And the intention is positive. But it's so amazing that you guys were so, like, in tune with, like, thinking about someone else's feelings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Too bad more people cannot be like that.

[A]

Yeah. And it's.

[B]

Yeah. But I can understand. You know, I remember it's a challenge.

[A]

It is a challenge. It's hard. And I remember in that moment, like, Matt and I had both kind of separately told Steve and sent him pictures and videos. Cause we wanted him to feel included. And he was coming that night to pick Penn. And Steve's like, I'm really glad you told me. He's like. Because it was a moment of, like, heartbreak and he's like. And also, I wanted to match Penny's energy because I knew when I got there, she was going to be excited and want to show me. And I didn't want her to have to worry about what I was feeling. I wanted her to, like, I joined her in her excitement. And so there's been a lot of moments like that as co parents that we kind of embraced those things and really talked about.

[B]

You know, I've talked a lot about this too, because I'm a stepmom.

[A]

And it is a.

[B]

It shouldn't be the child's job to have a court order where they can't accidentally call a stepparent mom or dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, when there's other kids calling their mom and dad. And I understand why that would be hard for somebody, but, like, if you just put it in a small child's perspective.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And not your own. And what's rightfully yours. And how dare this woman that took her for ice cream where she goes, thanks, Mom. And then she sees that a real mom saw that she accidentally slept. Like, I mean, it's hard enough that they're sharing two different homes, you know? Yeah.

[A]

And I always like to share, like, Steve and Matt. So our podcast, when we had it, the three of us hosted a podcast together, and it was called Husband in Law.

[B]

Great title.

[A]

Thank you. Because that's what they called each other. And it was such a. Like, it brought them closer together and healing for Steve in so many ways, and I think for Matt as well. But just this coming together of hearing the story from Steve's side and understanding the pain and the heartache Steve went through. Matt tells people all the time he's like, I love him. Like, he's just. Just part of our family. And it's not like Steve's at our house all the time.

[B]

But you guys live in the same neighborhood.

[A]

We're like five minutes away from each other.

[B]

Oh, that's so nice too.

[A]

It's so great. But he does come over for holidays if he's around. And like, we do. His birthday was at our house with my parents last year and things like that.

[B]

And he's seeing a relationship.

[A]

Steve, I don't know what's going on there right now, but he's never.

[B]

Has he ever been in something super serious or lived with someone?

[A]

Yes, he has. And his partner was very much a part of our family as well and is welcomed with open arms.

[B]

Did he ever talk about Steve having another child with a man or anything like that?

[A]

Steve, like, talked about it for a little bit and then I was like, hold your roll. Steve. I need you to realize that this child doesn't go back and forth between our houses. You have a full time child. Like, this is your responsibility, not my kid. He's like, oh.

[B]

Because you think that he thought it wouldn't be.

[A]

I think he just didn't think about the gravity of that, like having another child.

[B]

Another child.

[A]

Like, this is a full time job with this other person or whatever, not just me. He's always trying to get me to have another kid. I was like, I try and I don't produce children. Apparently we got lucky.

[B]

With you and Matt. If you were to. If you had got pregnant naturally, that would have been great, but you weren't gonna go the next levels.

[A]

I was like, I don't want that.

[B]

You said he had two kids. So you are a stepmother as well. How has his ex and you gotten along?

[A]

Oh, my gosh. That's been a whole shit show. And I always say, like, the divorce was hard. Blending families and co parenting and second marriage is the hardest thing I've ever done. Stepmoms, step parents in general. It is a lot to navigate and to figure out. So my heart goes out to you as a stepmom. I don't know what your journey's been.

[B]

Like, but it's a Lifetime movie.

[A]

But it's very.

[B]

It's very easy now. She's 25. It's very easy now. And it's been very easy for quite a while. But no, it's very, very hard. And, you know, it's very hard for anybody. And. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's been a challenge for you.

[A]

It's been a challenge. And I think, I mean, Matt Fell apart. When we first got married, I think trauma from his first marriage came up that he wasn't expecting. And then I was trying to sort through. Is this about me? Is this about something else? I don't know. He's not communicating because he didn't communicate in his first marriage. Like, that wasn't an open door. So we were dealing with that. And then on top of that, we're dealing with his ex wife and the kids and all of that. And it was. It was a mess. I left at one point I was like, I'm not doing this. Like, I can't stay. I've completely. I'm completely losing who I am. And I. I would rather lose him than lose who I was. Like, I can't. It's not something I'm willing to give up.

[B]

And why was it so hard?

[A]

Because, I mean, there were things that were being said about me. There was parental alienation that was going on, Just all of those. I mean, at one point, Matt was accused of abuse to her, like domestic violence. And it came out that that was a lie. And just so many things.

[B]

Those type of things are so awful. Like, did you do the exchanges at the police station?

[A]

We did them at the church.

[B]

Oh, at the church. Okay.

[A]

At the end of all of that, it was always good times. Before and after church pickup and drop.

[B]

Off, I'm still triggered. Like, if I go by certain police stations, there's one in Resita, that's where we used to do the exchanges. And one in Fullerton, and they even have like a little box of toys, like for the people.

[A]

Because it's happening so often for someone.

[B]

Who'S like, why would you do exchanges? Because one of the spouses might make a false accusation that in just exchanging the child that you chuck something at them or do something physical. So you want police witnesses that everything is copacetic. Yeah, it's so not fun.

[A]

It is not fun. It is not fun. The way to do it, man, is. Yeah, we did one at like, we did a fire station for a while. And I remember the day after or maybe two days after the assault charges were put, like, laid out there.

[B]

We met at the fire, by the way. We had all that too. Yeah, we had all that too.

[A]

Yeah, we met at the fire station and I'm in the car recording out the back window.

[B]

Oh, we had to do the recording.

[A]

And Matt's got a recording going and the kids are like. Went out to their mom. Like, Jessica's recording this. And then like, there was this huge blow up and we're like, why would you not expect us to record this? Like you just accused him of assaulting you. Like we're going to have our backs. So there's been stuff like that. Now we're good. We can sit at sporting events together. We can.

[B]

How old are all the kids? Penny and your step kids?

[A]

Yeah, our oldest is 18. He just left for college. And then we have a he. Matt has a 17 year old daughter that lives with us almost full time. And then Penny's almost 16 and she's with us basically full time. I mean they see their other parents just like at that age it's hard to go back.

[B]

They can do their thing. Yeah. It's up to them. Yeah. They've got cars to form their relationships and hope that those are good. So tell us about the book and what it covers and why people should order it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So the book goes into basically creating deep connection back to ourselves. And I do that through decision making. I help women mostly walk through how to come back to themselves. So when life doesn't go as planned, because when does it ever go as planned? You know how to make decisions that are in alignment for you. I did this work in real time as I navigated the divorce and seeing how this played out of like, oh my gosh, I have so much power in this process because I know who I am and I'm clear about what I want moving forward. Which often when we hit divorce we don't know what the hell we want. This wasn't the plan. This wasn't what our life should look like or where we should go. Right.

[B]

Or even that you're so angry and hurt and you feel tricked and deceived that you give your power away. Right. To like the anger and all of that instead of truly being a best friend to yourself.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. We get stuck in those emotions and they're not leading us towards what we ultimately want. Yes, we need to feel em. Yes, we need to let embrace them. Yes, you are totally entitled to all of em. But maybe don't let that be the key thing that's guiding your decisions. And also don't let your aunt and your best friend and your dad and your mom be the decision maker in those moments which those voices get so loud when you're going through anything big in life because everybody has their opinion. Well, you should do this. You should be getting divorced faster. These are things I heard. You should get divorced faster. You shouldn't let him be in your life anymore. Like all of these things. And I use the word should because it's easy to identify of where we're placing judgment on our actions. So I wanted a way to be able to support more women. I'm like, listen, I, I do coaching programs I run. I mean, they, they cost a chunk of money and I know not everybody can afford that. So the book's an opportunity to be able to support more people and help them release that conditioning that we've been in. I mean, so much of it comes from many of us, from religion or culture or society. We're going to release that and we're going to understand how decision making works and how we can utilize it for us, how we can really get in tune with our intuition and without all of the should that's been put on us.

[B]

I love it. So tell everybody where they can find you, Follow you, order the book. And then when would the book be available? Once they order it today.

[A]

So you can pre sale is open right now until September 12th, I believe. And then it goes into regular sale right now when you, if you. I don't know if this is dropping before September 12th.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

But yes, you can go get like there's extra coaching bonuses. So if you get it now, you can buy into some of those things and get extra support in releasing that conditioning so that you can make aligned decisions. And you can go to shoveyourshoulds.com anytime you're hearing this and pick that up. And then I am most active on Instagram. You can find me at heyjessicafroo.

[B]

Thank you so much. I think it's great and I'm so glad that you came down in person and we got to spend this time together. It was a really great, inspiring conversation.

[A]

Thanks so much for having me. It's been awesome. Thank you.

[B]

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